In the near future Receivers in the $2000 range will appear with Reon video processing capabilities. I believe already Yamaha sells their 2700 receiver with an ABT video processor. The potential of these receivers is huge, it appears. The main benefit is that they will provide superior processing without adding another box to your video rack. The obvious down side is that you've got all your eggs in one basket - you lose both functions when one needs to go into the shop for repairs. I like convenient solutions, but am not sure I want to video processing tied directly to my receiver. But I also like the thought of having a top notch receiver plus VP, and having some cash left over for pop cord (or to upgrade other components).

So, I ask you, do these receivers actually provide superior video processing? Is there a way to get similar processing with a good receiver and an external VP - at about the same price?

So, I ask you, do these receivers actually provide superior video processing? Is there a way to get similar processing with a good receiver and an external VP - at about the same price?First, I would note that the solutions you have referenced are not yet shipping. They look excellent on paper, but until they ship, we don't know how well they are implemented. For example, we don't know if Onkyo will provide configurable options for SD noise reduction, SD mosquito and block reduction, SD detail enhancement, or color controls.

So, I ask you, do these receivers actually provide superior video processing? Is there a way to get similar processing with a good receiver and an external VP - at about the same price?Probably not. You've got to spend upwards of $1200-$1500 to get anything that will compare to a properly implemented ReonVX, which is about the cost of the Onkyo receivers. In that sense, you're getting the audio part of the receiver for free.

Probably not. You've got to spend upwards of $1200-$1500 to get anything that will compare to a properly implemented ReonVX, which is about the cost of the Onkyo receivers. In that sense, you're getting the audio part of the receiver for free.[/QUOTE]

Just playing devils advocate here, but I believe this is worthy of debate. Could the fact that mid-end and better AVR's / Pre-pros will be incorporating Video Processors also show that the recent wave of video scaler/processors has been based on ruinous profits? We all know that ruinous profits breed ruinous competition!

If the VP can be integrated into the AVR for a minimal cost to the manufacturer and the consumer on the street will pay extra for the feature, it is a win-win situation.


First, I would note that the solutions you have referenced are not yet shipping. They look excellent on paper, but until they ship, we don't know how well they are implemented. For example, we don't know if Onkyo will provide configurable options for SD noise reduction, SD mosquito and block reduction, SD detail enhancement, or color controls.

I agree completely! The fact that the industry has kept this set of new features "on the down-low" is cause for a little concern.

Are you aware of any discussions, tests, or white-papers on the single chip solutions for the Video Processors? Much like the debate between the Renon Chip and the Fajorda (spelling?) this will become a deciding factor for many purchasors.

First, I would note that the solutions you have referenced are not yet shipping. They look excellent on paper, but until they ship, we don't know how well they are implemented. For example, we don't know if Onkyo will provide configurable options for SD noise reduction, SD mosquito and block reduction, SD detail enhancement, or color controls.

True, the Onkyo receivers have not shipped so we're just guessing how well the Reon will be implemented. However, it appears in the flagship Toshiba HD DVD player - which has gotten excellent reviews for its scaling and PQ. Also, the stories are that Silicon Optix is working closely with Onkyo to help them get it right. It makes sense to assume that they will have less configuration options that a separate box would. I'm not sure that this is a bad thing for a more consumer oriented device.

About price... the capabilities of the stand alone VP boxes and customer support provided by those companies that makes them surely justifies most of the cost. Lets just assume that the Onkyo 875 receiver provides 100% of what the typical high end consumer desires. I would suspect that these receivers would only provide 75-90% of what people who purchase stand alone VP boxes want. We all know how much that extra 10% of top performance costs.

I believe that these receivers will be stiff competition for the low end processors, if the receivers work as expected. People will be less willing to spend $1000 on a stand alone VP when a good receiver offers better capabilities.

I'm sure most receivers will eventually process video properly.

For the moment they do not, lets see when they do how much they'll cost and what VPs will be able to do at that time....

I think these receivers will be given the VP companies a run for their money. My Pioneer 94Hd and Toshiba XA2 do one heck of a job sending 1080p out. I now am only needing my VP for 1080i sources. Like DTHEATER and DirecTV. Now if receiver comes out soon which can make them look as good as my high end VP then that will make the VP obsolete in my set up. That is a BIG IF though. I will be testing this shortly with the Onkyo 875. If the 875 is what I suspect it will be then I will get the Onkyo 905 then most likely sell my VP... :eek:

Hmmm, now it is getting even more interesting. It seems Intergra is releasing a PrePro (end of July) that includes Reon Video Processing and have a MSRP of $1600.

Does the Toshiba XA2 give any clues as to what we might expect from the quality of processing and user tweaking allowed by these new receivers?

I think it definitely does... I expect top notch scaling... :)

Hmmm, now it is getting even more interesting. It seems Intergra is releasing a PrePro (end of July) that includes Reon Video Processing and have a MSRP of $1600.

Does the Toshiba XA2 give any clues as to what we might expect from the quality of processing and user tweaking allowed by these new receivers?

The latest news from looking at the Integra manual for the Onkyo 905 equivalent is that the Onkyo engineers have NOT exposed any of the features/settings for the user to adjust. Not even for ALL inputs let alone I was hoping to be able to set the Onkyo 905 REON on a per input basis (4 HDMIs, 3 components). Either Onkyo's engineers were not competent to write the code to access the REON firmware or the designers just plain got it wrong.

The XA2 has numerous settings exposed for noise reduction and image enhancement (color, etc) but you can't use the XA2 to process an external video source.

The latest news from looking at the Integra manual for the Onkyo 905 equivalent is that the Onkyo engineers have NOT exposed any of the features/settings for the user to adjust. Not even for ALL inputs let alone I was hoping to be able to set the Onkyo 905 REON on a per input basis (4 HDMIs, 3 components). Either Onkyo's engineers were not competent to write the code to access the REON firmware or the designers just plain got it wrong.

The XA2 has numerous settings exposed for noise reduction and image enhancement (color, etc) but you can't use the XA2 to process an external video source.

A true shame. I wonder how hard it would be to hack an XA2 so it could take an external source...

I would be really surprised if a mid level receiver or prepro is able to compete with a standalone VP on feature per feature basis. Presence of a Reon chip doesn't mean a thing if it is not programmed & implemented properly. Furthermore how commited is Onkyo/Intergra when it comes to bug fixes or software updates, especially when you look at their track record with their current flagship receiver.

I seriously cannot believe this is even being suggested, I am confused :confused:

-Gary

I don't think they are trying to replace VPs so to speak. But for many who are not hardcore videophiles then these newer geerations will leave them satisfied with the video. Imagine the market who does not own a VP and has thought about it. If they get one of the new receivers they won't think about it again. I already know a few members on this forum (I won't mention their names) who have sold their VPs in anticipation for Onkyo's new 905 unit. If it shoots out an excellent image then many who don't believe in VPs never will and some of those that do will find it harder and harder to justify...

I don't think they are trying to replace VPs so to speak. But for many who are not hardcore videophiles then these newer geerations will leave them satisfied with the video. Imagine the market who does not own a VP and has thought about it. If they get one of the new receivers they won't think about it again. I already know a few members on this forum (I won't mention their names) who have sold their VPs in anticipation for Onkyo's new 905 unit. If it shoots out an excellent image then many who don't believe in VPs never will and some of those that do will find it harder and harder to justify...

Joe-- I think there is also the desire to simplify the datapath and control of these devices. When I have all my sources wired into a VP and then they go onto the receiver and tv-- it would be nice to eliminate one step in the process. Just go source-->AV receiver-->tv. With the path all HDMI 1.3a. [I for one was really surprised that the new Lumagen Radiance was going to be released at HDMI 1.1 with a board upgrade --at user expense--would come at some future date.]

With the VPs we've all had lots of HDMI sync problems--probably blameable to some extent on encryption issues with HDCP. Also -- getting the VPs to pass the high bandwidth True HD or DTS MA signals along with 1080p24 data properly to the receivers may not be a trivial issue.

There's alot to be said for simplifying the datapath and incorporating hi-end video processing chips into the receivers. The receivers are already a built in switching platform and to a large extent that is what adds a lot to the cost of the standalone VPs.

The standalone VPs are great for less common processing needs -- uncommon pixel dimensions, etc. But if one needs just 1080p24 or 1080p60 for a 1920x1080p display device, an embedded REON or REALTA in a receiver should do fine. Assuming the User can access the feature adjustments as Toshiba implemented in the HD-XA2 picture menu.

There's alot to be said for simplifying the datapath and incorporating hi-end video processing chips into the receivers... Assuming the User can access the feature adjustments as Toshiba implemented in the HD-XA2 picture menu.

Exactly. The one wire concept between devices is extremely alluring. I just wish the one wire wasn't HDMI.

There are two things that kept me away from buying a VP. The main thing is that I do not want to add yet another box to my setup. I've already got too much stuff that needs to be turned on if I want to watch a football game. I've been waiting for a VP to come with a built in DVD player and an ATSC/QAM tuner, but it doesn't seem like it will ever happen.

The other thing is this HDMI mess. This is not just a problem with VPs (receivers have had their share of trouble with it) , but adding another device to the HDCP chain just complicates things.

ANd that is what I am trying to say. HDMI is also contributing to many avoiding VPs and newer technology. So many handshaking issues out there. The average joe just wants to turn on the tv and watch it. If the newer AVRs make that even easier then that was my main point. Trust me I believe in VPs otherwise I would not have my crystalio II... I am just worried because I do not know how the market will do in the up and coming future...

That is the reason i have sold my Crystalio II, have the dvd feed 480i to Mits HC5000, Reon proccesing, and PS3 feed 1080p/24hz to Mits.when XA2 will have 1080p/24 will by that as well.all are going thru Onkyo 805.

You are not the only one. I know 3 people who have sold their crystalio II and 4 who have sold their DVDO VP50.. :eek: Which is my point! :)

joerod,

Curious. I have seen the C2 doing some amazing things with video. If video PQ was a priority, I don't think any A/V receiver out there would currently be of use to me video/wise...

I agree and I love my crystalio II. The thing is when these newer receivers come what if they start catching up to these high end scalers picture Q wise? I still could not replace my crystalio II. I love the picture in picture and picture by picture features. Also the test patterns and all those options you can do to the picture. I am just worried that many might start leaning towards receivers...

I have no need for CII, I feed from PS3 1080p/24 too Mits HC5000, Love it.

I actually use my ELITE straight to my Ruby at 1080p and it looks excellent... I only use the crystalio II for Directv HD DVRs (HDMI 1-3 inputs) and then I do send my Onkyo 805 which has my HD DVD, Blu ray and DTHEATER going in it to (HDMI input 4)... I send them in at 1080p (besides DTHEATER) but I like being able to adjust the picture some... :)

this is why an external VP needs to do more, for example on features. calibration, gamma/color correction, test patterns, multiple memories, quick aspect ratio changing, anamorphic squeezing, image shifting, pip/pop, adjustable NR/scaling, etc. These are the things a receiver will never do since they simply use a chip and never really "get into" it.

I'm hoping the next product from either Lumagen/DVDO/etc are feature rich. Deinterlacing video alone is far from sufficient, since that's what a chip is essentially doing in all those new receivers.

I agree with you 100%! ;)

Looking at the original post in the thread, I think one aspect of the economics of why VPs are so expensive is the economy of scale. Aside from the engineering required to implement all these high end features, as the product appeals to the masses, and enters mass production, prices on the hardware and software do come down. If it takes 1000 man hours of engineering to design a VP50 (hyphetical), that cost is better spread over tens of thousands of customers rather than over a few thousand.

Now what if your average Joe (ie. me) just wants to deinterlace his 1080i and eliminate mosquito noise and motion artifacts? What follows is that these products enter larger scale production, accelerated development, lower prices for everyone. I'm sure external VPs will not go away anytime soon as Onkyo will demonstrate in the next couple weeks as the 875 starts to ship.

In the end, I think everyone benefits.

Well, now that the Onkyo 875s are showing up, it seems they may not do what I want. The all in one box theory is really appealing, but it may be too hard to come up with something good in a consumer oriented receiver. Sooooo, I'm thinking I'll leave receivers to receiving, and just get a good receiver.

Well, now that the Onkyo 875s are showing up, it seems they may not do what I want. The all in one box theory is really appealing, but it may be too hard to come up with something good in a consumer oriented receiver. Sooooo, I'm thinking I'll leave receivers to receiving, and just get a good receiver.

Yeah, having no ability to calibrate per input was the deal killer for me.

Now that the new receivers and preamps with Reon have been shipping (integra DTR 8.8, DTC-9.8, equivalent onkyos) any new thoughts on this subject? when does somebody who has one of these really need a Lumagen etc.?