View Full Version : Belated HT5000/Genelec initial report


coldmachine
06-26-07, 08:16 AM
Sorry for the delay on this report but circumstances overtook me for a while, but better late than never I suppose. My Theatre construction is complete except the cosmetics and acoustic treatment so it was time to carry out an equipment check to ensure that everything was operating correctly and that there were no compatibility issues. This would also allow any last minute structural issues to be addressed. Total project cost has run to $750,000

The theatre equipment comprises the following:
1) Sim2 HT5000
2) ISCO III and motorized sled
3) 14ft Stewart Vistascope screen
4) Genelec 3xxx 7.1 surround with dual HTS6 subs
5) Arcam AV9 processor (stand in till new formats supported by suitable units)
6) Audyssey processor ( to tame the untreated room and as a demo) to be swapped for a Dolby Lake.
7) Kaleidescape, the HD option will be fitted when available

The "room" is 26ft wide and 40ft long includinga separate projection/equipment room, this has needed to have an HVAC zone added just to be sure. Screening room id 26x31. I won’t waste any time on discussing remote control, lighting and any other home automation stuff as its not relevant here but pm me if interested. Crestron if you're interested.

On the day of the test all the equipment had arrived with the exception of the screen. This was a blessing in disguise as we were able to test different screen fabrics. The space for the screen had been boarded, skimmed and painted to act as a faux screen and I must say, did a very good job. Screen fabrics were tested at various stages and are of no real relevance here.

Whilst the installers got on with the PJ and sled, others made the final connections for the audio. The Genelecs are an active system but with remote amplification. All the speakers are tri-amped, and comprise
1) 324A fronts
2) 324A centre
3) 324A surround
4) 324A rear
5) 2x HTS6 subs
I had intended to use the smaller 3xxx speakers but the room volume was at the upper end of their spec so I opted for the headroom this choice gave me. I could have mixed the rears but felt that as I’d gone this far I should take the extra step.

The installation and set up of the system was carried out prior to the speakers being finally bolted in as problems now could be addressed before the cosmetics were applied. An iPod of all things was used as a basic stereo source. This was no problem so 5 and 7 channel modes tested all the speakers. SPLs were checked and incrementally pushed as far as was bearable and beyond. Surround audio was initially tested using the JM Jarre “Aero” album on DVD. In a 26ft wide room there can be some serious rear localization issues but using a 7.1 arrangement and PLIIx processing yielded fantastic results. Panning smoothness and localization using software were identical to the front with no collapse to the side when off the sweet spot. Audio on my souces was outstanding. The analog outs on the XA2 are worth special mention, giving superb detail. I await a processor to handle new formats digitally before I'm totally happy.

In terms of audio clarity and fidelity, the AV9 is a standout performer. Its not as well known here but should be. Its noise floor in particular was an utter revelation and the installers and Genelec guys were more than impressed. I also use 2 AVR350s on my smaller PJ set ups, this is easily the best sounding receiver available atm. The AV9 is a stand in till there are hi end units handling the new codecs properly. An Arcam solution will be top of my list to audition. Be aware when setting speaker levels that the PLIIx algorithm requires some rear surround speaker adjustment. Its the same on the 350. Surround rears need a bit of a boost to provide equal output. 3db in this case. Testing properly, using tones, in PLIIx mode rather than straight output requires a test disk using properly steered tones. The installer used a custom disk of his own. This cant be done using the internal noise generator on this unit or the AVR350. When this is corrected, and its very simple, rear pans are a revelation. In a large room this can even be done fairly well by ear as the dip in the rear surrounds compared to LR surrounds is detectable when PLIIx is engaged. If you dont have the software or test equipment to do this properly, try a 3db boost. This applies to some other units too.

I don’t wish to go further with the audio as the system obviously was not fully calibrated and adjusted, this will be carried out after the room is finished along with all the ISF video calibrations. Suffice to say the system has exceeded all my expectations in terms of transparency, fidelity and raw SPL. The Audyssey seemed to be doing some reasonable work at making the room disappear. Its actually not up to this level of install and a Dolby Lake processor will be looked at

By this time the projector was up and running and was adjusted to the screen size. It may seem a small point, but it was a relief to see that the lens choice was correct for the throw and screen width. Test screens were flying all over the place whilst adjustments and measurements were taken. The first impression I had when seeing the onboard screens was of serious brightness, uber ANSI and flawless uniformity.

The image was blown up as large as possible to check for any panel misalignment. Center image was totally prefect and the extreme edge was small factions of a pixel. If this were a review, the machine would score 100% on alignment. The installer stated this was typical of the HT5ks he’d used. My installer said that Sim2 are also the only company that will issue an advance replacement , dependent on their relationship with the installer. You get the new one before you uninstall the defective unit. The Isco was motored into the path to check geometry. With my width and throw there was no issue, thank goodness as curved screens piss me off. I find them distracting. Chromatic aberration was totally absent . We used the sharpest patterns with the highest contrast and none could be induced. I’d have to say the ISCO is flawless. Once its set up it’s as if it’s not even there. Light loss is nil ( well below 1%).

This machine is bright, very bright. If you are using either extreme screen sizes or throws , a 2 lamp model is available and will hitting the streets around years end. Users must specify a 2 lamp unit upfront and suffer the dollar hit (I think around 10k, but you’d need to check). . This is excellent for constant lumen o/p over a long period of lamp life. The quoted on/off is >6000:1. Sim2 are probably the most conservative spec quoters out there. My unit measured a healthy 6200:1, again typical of the unit. Noise is around 40db @3ft. The ANSI was itro 700:1. I’ll post calibrated figures when everything is totally wrapped up. The chipsets for the machine are hand picked and individually tested as is the machine as a whole on completion. Mine had 20hrs on the lamp and this is normal. Im sure this adds a fair bit to the cost.

One of the main features of Sim2 machine across the whole range is the processing. Current machines negate the use of a VP . Tests that I myself and Allan Gouger have carried out show, at best, no improvement and in many cases a detrimental impact by having an VP in use. Sim2 write all their software “in-house” and this makes a big difference. For example, any algorithm not in use is not set to “pass through” but actually removed from the chain, akin to an audio “tone defeat”. There fully programmable AR setting with 3 programmable and 6 preset ARs per memory and there are 6 memories per source. Worthy of note is the sharpness control as it can go negatively as well. This is excellent for transfers that have been edge enhanced. All the memories can be renamed to illustrate their purpose and tied to a universal remote this is fantastic.

Grayscale OOTB was close to perfect and will be tweaked later. The unit has a large number of gamma settings as well as user adjustable. The Color management has been opened up recently so full adjustment is now there. I’ll go into more detail on this when I get fully calibrated. The machine also has an optical out. It will strip its own audio from the HDMI signal and pass back to the processor. I’ve only ever seen this on other Sims.

In terms of subjective experience, this unit is pretty much top of the food chain for its given market segment. The WOW factor on this machine defies words. Seeing Sin City in HD is something else, it’s as if this film was made to demo this machine. Native HD material shows an image depth and clarity that I’ve never seen before. Both new disk formats are handled with surgical precision and that can also bring issues. Movies where CGI is not perfectly integrated are immediately obvious. There are a few King Kong scenes that are particularly badly done. SD DVD is handled well and I’ve found the up scaling on the XA2 to be far better than expected. The image is as sharp as the new gen Sim 1 chippers due to exceptional alignment, and is well ahead of an LC based machine


All my sources are capable of generating a 1080i/p signal so I mainly use 1:1 pixel mapping. There are a few channels and some DVDs that have minor edge issues and a user memory on the 5k, selectable via remote, takes care of that. My sources are.
1) HD-TV
2) XA2
3) PS3 for BD temp till player arrives
4) 360
5) AppleTV
6) Alienware laptop.

With the 5K having 14 inputs, including 6 HDMI I am now able to connect ALL sources direct to the projector, removing another source of errors from the video chain. Each input will be calibrated when I have the installers back in next week to finish off.

I have to put my hand on my heart and say that my expectations have been exceeded in every area with this install. I would thoroughly and without reservation recommend the HT5000 to any prospective customer. This recommendation is also fully extended to the Genelec 3xxx series .

Gino AUS
06-26-07, 09:47 AM
That is some serious gear you are using there!

Thanks for the lengthy initial report. What do you think the weaknesses of this machine are? Seems to me that it is near perfect except for low APL performance. Is there any other projector that comes close? I've only heard glowing reviews or good things about it.

coldmachine
06-26-07, 10:16 AM
It represents the best soution to my HT problem. Others may find different solutions to be better. Its low APL performance is in no way a limiting factor. For low APL to be a real issue far lower CRs than that are needed. At its price point, and aimed at the correct target audience it certainly, in my opinion, outperforms the competion by a long long way.

Art Sonneborn
06-26-07, 10:30 AM
Sounds like you like it. ;) Since mine is on it's way, I'm glad to hear the glowing report.

Art

coldmachine
06-26-07, 11:06 AM
Me too.... makes a frikkin' expensive door stop :eek:

You've tried it so you know what you're getting. Takes a lot to depose a pair of G90s

IAMPADDY
06-26-07, 11:55 AM
Coldmachine,

Congrats on a monster of a setup!

Any chance in you including some photos and/or renders of progress of your development? I am sure everyone would be interested in such an amazing room.

Best regards,

Paddy

Haroon Malik
06-26-07, 03:39 PM
Coldmachine,

Brilliant read! Congratulations on your set-up. :) It should be excellent once everything is complete.

JlgLaw
06-26-07, 04:43 PM
Coldmachine,

Terrific read, thanks for taking the time to post.

Jim

pocoloco
06-27-07, 02:06 PM
Sounds like a sweet setup. Pictures please!!!

QQQ
06-27-07, 06:42 PM
Yes, where are some pictures of your theater :)?!

coldmachine
06-27-07, 08:56 PM
As well as being for personal use, the theatre has a professional use.

QQQ
06-27-07, 09:08 PM
As well as being for personal use, the theatre has a business use.
As in tax write off :D? The HT5000 should in fact, work excellently for video conferencing :D.

Art Sonneborn
06-28-07, 07:48 AM
Wow,very very disappointing ! I thought we were going to get a nice chronicle of the install etc. :(

Art

coldmachine
06-28-07, 09:07 AM
Sorry to dissapoint but it is outside my control

The Bogg
06-28-07, 12:13 PM
As well as being for personal use, the theatre has a business use. The nature of the theatre and contents would cause privacy issues if photographs were posted. This is something that has caused issue in the past.

I hope people understand that this is in no way a snub to those interested. I'm more than happy to answer any questions and will be posting an update very soon as we are nearly finished. :)

Ah, I get it, you're in the porn industry. :D

You're going to have to PM all of us because now we're really curious!!! :)

Actually, I'm just interested in hearing about the active Genelec setup. I'm an ATC man myself and active speakers are the way to go imho (I've compared active and passive ATCs with high-end amplification)

coldmachine
06-28-07, 12:34 PM
I'll give a more detailed u/d re: Genelecs soon.
I had considered ATC but really needed remote amps.

Alan Gouger
06-28-07, 12:41 PM
Sorry for jumping in late. You are a lucky man. Sounds like quit the theater that will keep you at the cutting edge for years to come. I wish I had the room to go with a larger screen. You guys are making me jealous!!
Keep up the good work :)

The Bogg
07-26-07, 02:18 PM
I'll give a more detailed u/d re: Genelecs soon.
I had considered ATC but really needed remote amps.

When are we going to hear more about your genelecs?

coldmachine
07-26-07, 03:21 PM
Ive got the ISF tech in soon to do the theatre and and an HT380. Final audio cal will also be done as everything is now fitted.

What would you like to know?


Photos up.

CINERAMAX
07-26-07, 03:39 PM
[QUOTE=coldmachine]As well as being for personal use, the theatre has a business use. The nature of the theatre and contents would cause privacy issues if photographs were posted. This is something that has caused issue in the past.
QUOTE]

Just buy my camera for 25 cents, the image will be so uninteligible that I assure you 'l be fine.

http://cineramax.com/images/Rorary_Sub_Platform2.jpg

Just say they are Jason Pollock replicas.

CINERAMAX
07-26-07, 03:51 PM
As in tax write off :D? The HT5000 should in fact, work excellently for video conferencing :D.


I had convinced Pat Riley that his theater being a separate element of his residence would be Tax deductible, he seemed to listen intently. In fact everytime he came back from tour he was in there analysing the dailies from the games.

However one April 16 something went wrong, he fired Steven Spielberg's Interior designer, his assistant (formerly Jerry Browns) and he made me take back a Faraoudja ld-200 ( on a famous spanish excuse of : No Le gusta, no lo paga.) I am not implying anything , just an example of many setbacks a custom installer can expereience on that dreaded date.

All in all though what a mensck he is. This is one guy I would vote for President.

The Bogg
07-26-07, 06:54 PM
Ive got the ISF tech in soon to do the theatre and and an HT380. Final audio cal will also be done as everything is now fitted.

What would you like to know?

Oh just want to hear your "mini review" on them. Nothing specific I guess. Would actually like to hear them out of curiosity but I'm nowhere near you (I'm in the Great White North - Canada!). Would be interested in comparisons with other similar products.

What is the retail price of a pair?

coldmachine
07-26-07, 07:34 PM
Retail is only part, as they are CI only. Cabling adds up too. For easy calcultation I allowed $15k per single, installed. Depending on where you are putting them the installation work can be major and fairly costly.

The Bogg
07-27-07, 06:56 AM
Retail is only part, as they are CI only. Cabling adds up too. For easy calcultation I allowed $8k per single, installed. Depending on where you are putting them the installation work can be major and fairly costly.

I see. Does that mean they are soffit mounted? Can the low-end be "tailored" to the room/installation?

coldmachine
07-27-07, 07:47 AM
They can be. They must be flush mounted. With non solid walls they need some serious vibration isolation. If you have solid concrete they are bolted in, surrounded by what looks like tubular sand bags, axis alignment was done using small lasers on the cabinets.
In terms of tailoring its far more than the low end. The actual accoustic axis can be horizontal or vertical. There is a whole lot more tailoring than just the low end roll off. There are very accurate gain controls plus bass level, roll off and tilt. There are also mid and high options as well as remote 12v triggering. All connectors are XLR and if you need more than 30ft of cable to each speaker, which you most certainly would, then that will cost extra.

The system is calibrated at a nominal 100db spl and will drive to just below 130db. They displace so much air that they are like an a/c system.

We initially used an Audyssey to tame the room as treatments hadnt been applied/installed. Theyre in now so the Audyssey is gone.

Any further questions, just holler.

PS, I posted the wrong price, its $15k per unit.

Tim916
07-27-07, 09:58 AM
coldmachine,

Sounds like a brilliant system you've got. You list a PS3 as your Blu-ray source. I know you mentioned that you want to run all your HDMI video sources directly to the Sim2, but what do plan to do about getting Dolby True HD from the PS3? Do plan on getting a stand-alone player?

coldmachine
07-27-07, 10:37 AM
coldmachine,

Sounds like a brilliant system you've got. You list a PS3 as your Blu-ray source. I know you mentioned that you want to run all your HDMI video sources directly to the Sim2, but what do plan to do about getting Dolby True HD from the PS3? Do plan on getting a stand-alone player?
Yes. Looking at the new Denons

Alan Gouger
07-27-07, 10:47 AM
The new Denons have caught my attention as well. The problem with HD DVD and BD is as the technology evolves we have to keep buying new players to get what should have been released from the get go. I mean HD DVD still does not hoffer 1080P 24. I have several generations sitting here. Time to have a HD DVD garage sale :)

coldmachine
07-27-07, 01:36 PM
I think by the time they get their act together we will be looking at VOD anyway.

Gino AUS
07-27-07, 10:01 PM
I mean HD DVD still does not hoffer 1080P 24. I have several generations sitting here. Time to have a HD DVD garage sale :)
I thought they announced a new firmware for 1080p24 output? At least in europe anyway.