TBS to Go High Def September 1st
By Anthony Crupi MediaWeek June 26, 2007

Turner on Tuesday announced that it will launch a high-definition simulcast of TBS on Sept. 1.

TBS original series like My Boys and The Bill Engvall Show are already shot in high-def; older acquisitions (Seinfeld, Friends, etc.) will be upconverted to the 1080i HD format.

“With the launch of TBS in HD, we will bring an outstanding line-up of comedy programming to our viewers in a video format that is on the fast track to becoming the industry and consumer standard,” said Steve Koonin, president of Turner Entertainment Networks. “We are extremely proud to bring TBS to the HD world.”

Once the feed goes live, all TBS fare––including its coverage of Major League Baseball’s Division Series Playoffs and the National League Championship Series––will be available in high-def.

To maintain consistency and avoid the diminished visual experience of pillaring, all commercials on TBS in HD will be presented in a widescreen format.

Turner launched an HD version of its flagship drama network, TNT, in May 2004.

http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/news/cabletv/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003603758

The TBS News Release:

TBS To Bring New Definition to Comedy with TBS in HD

High-Def Service Slated To Launch Sept. 1

Comedy is about to be defined in a whole new way as TBS prepares to enter the HDTV arena with the launch of TBS in HD in September, it was announced today by Steve Koonin, president of Turner Entertainment Networks. The HDTV simulcast of TBS’s East Coast feed will offer viewers a stellar line-up of comedy that includes such exclusive programs as the TBS original series My Boys and The Bill Engvall Show, which are being shot in high-definition; first-run series like Tyler Perry’s House of Payne, which recently set an ad-supported cable ratings record; hot contemporary sitcoms like Seinfeld, Friends, Everybody Loves Raymond and Sex and the City; and highly rated comedy specials like World’s Funniest Commercials. TBS in HD will launch Saturday, Sept. 1.

"With the launch of TBS in HD, we will bring an outstanding line-up of comedy programming to our viewers in a video format that is on the fast track to becoming the industry and consumer standard," said Koonin. "We are extremely proud to bring TBS to the HD world."

"TBS is an excellent choice to be among the latest high-definition offerings from Turner Broadcasting," said Coleman Breland, executive vice president of sales and marketing for Turner Network Sales. "With the very best comedy line-up on television, TBS in HD is certain to be a big draw for viewers."

In addition to the network’s top-rated line-up of comedy programming, TBS in HD will also showcase high-def presentations of TBS’s exclusive coverage of the Major League Baseball’s Division Series Playoffs and the National League Championship Series.

TBS in HD will be broadcast in 1080i 24 hours a day and use Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound across all TBS in HD programming. In addition, TBS in HD will present all of its programming, including promotional content and commercials, in 16:9 wide-screen, giving viewers a consistent viewing experience.

[To maintain consistency and avoid the diminished visual experience of pillaring, all commercials on TBS in HD will be presented in a widescreen format.

Turner launched an HD version of its flagship drama network, TNT, in May 2004.Anyone care to speculate if TBS HD programming will be presented in stretch-o-vision like TNT? ;)

Going from unstretched to s t r e t c h e d is NOT a consistent viewing experience.:rolleyes:

ahh

thats good news

stretched or not, get rid of the damn side bars!

I wonder if we'll finally get to see Seinfeld in HD? I seem to recall a thread about that last year, but I'm not aware that any HD episodes aired anywhere. Hopefully they won't be shown in that stretchy-vision.

I find it a bit strange that TBS is going HD before F/X and USA, both of which are networks from similarly strong companies, and both of which could present substantially stronger HD offerings.

TBS has the baseball playoffs this year.

I would assume they need a few weeks to get things rolling before the games begin.

The TBS press release specifically mentions Seinfeld.

I wonder if we'll finally get to see Seinfeld in HD? I seem to recall a thread about that last year, but I'm not aware that any HD episodes aired anywhere. Hopefully they won't be shown in that stretchy-vision.

Anyone care to speculate if TBS HD programming will be presented in stretch-o-vision like TNT? ;)
Man I hope not. Not only that, will all programs be listed as HD?
stretched or not, get rid of the damn side bars!
So you'd rather see people with fat heads instead of a more true looking picture that happens to have side bars? Do you like the look TNT HD uses?

Man I hope not. Not only that, will all programs be listed as HD?
I'm sure it will be stretched, and everything will be "HD." Turner will probably do all of their networks like this, and I hate them for it. Why anyone thinks sending out a distorted picture is a good thing is beyond me.

I get TBS OTA feed through Comcast Cable in Atlanta. The last couple of years, they had been showing the Braves home games in HD. It was hands down some of the best looking HD you will see. That is the ONLY true HD content I have seen on TBS in the last 2 years.

This year, they quit showing the home games on TBS in HD. Hopefully, the HD they show in their shows, will rival the baseball HD from years past.

Besides D*, I wonder what other providers will carry TBS-HD. And boo to stretch-o-vision coming to TBS-HD.

Besides D*, I wonder what other providers will carry TBS-HD. And boo to stretch-o-vision coming to TBS-HD.

Yeah, and when will they carry it? When also includes D*.

If they want people to see the baseball playoffs in HD on TBS-HD, isn't a September 1 start-up date cutting it way too close? How many cable companies will have added TBS-HD to even a few of their regions by the start of October? The pattern has been to take months to add a new HD channel across most of their franchises and many areas still don't have channels that were added to other Comcast & TWC franchises many months ago. D* will presumably have TBS-HD when/if their new satellite starts up, so that may be it for TBS-HD.

It took Verizon Fios two weeks to roll out the last 3 HD channels added (Food, HDTV, Lifetime Movies) across all their states. And two of those HD channels has been around for close to a year prior to that.

With the number of high profile HD channels that are starting up this fall, I hope the cable companies and Verizon are making plans to add them much more quickly than they have been.

My money's on stretch-o-vision like on TNT-HD, which I personally can't even watch. I'll watch HD on TNT when it's actually HD; if not, I actually prefer to watch the SD feed from DirecTV. I watch TBS a lot, too, primarily Seinfeld, Friends, and Everybody Loves Raymond reruns. Thankfully I will have the complete Seinfeld series on DVD by November when Season 9 comes out and it looks fantastic streamed through my MG-35 in it's normal 4:3 aspect ratio, so I won't have to worry about that one.

I think you'll see the pace step up. Most companies have already announced HD offerings for the fall. TBS is late out of the gate, but, not unexpected with their announcement. It was pretty widely assumed they would be in HD for the playoffs. Any cable operator who isn't ready for them now is asleep at the switch. This means Comcast and Cablevision and Time Warner will have slow deployments. :D

With more and more HD customers they really are at pressure point to make sure they're on top of things.

I'm not excited... this is going to end up being worse than TNT HD in terms of stretched programming. The absence of pillar bars is a step backwards.

Stretched SD commercials are OK on a TRUE HD program.

SD shows should be pillarboxed.

TBS announced months ago it would be providing an HD channel before the baseball playoffs start. This date is about what was expected.

It has the rights to all Division Series games (conflicts will be shown on TNT HD) as well as the NLCS this year, then the ALCS in 2008.

The unofficial start date for many new HD offerings on DirecTV seems to be Sept. 5. But given the heavy emphasis on sports programming, it seems clear TBS will be offered at the latest by the time the baseball playoffs begin, with three games on Wednesday, October 3.

SD shows should be pillarboxed.
But I need to use every pixel on the brand new 42" TV I just bought from Walmart!

I find it a bit strange that TBS is going HD before F/X and USA, both of which are networks from similarly strong companies, and both of which could present substantially stronger HD offerings.TBS going HD was a lock due to the MLB deal. FX is also due for HD, as the Turner Atlanta HD facility is being built out.

Does TBS actually provide any original drama programs? (Going to their website to check.)

FX is also due for HD, as the Turner Atlanta HD facility is being built out.
But FX is owned by Fox...

But FX is owned by Fox...
Your completely right! My bad, sorry.

Does TBS actually provide any original drama programs? (Going to their website to check.)

No...

TNT = "We Know Drama"
TBS = Comedy

They set it up that way a few years back.

I was waiting for this I was getting tired off see the TBS HD commerical for their comedy on TNT.

The TBS press release specifically mentions Seinfeld.

yes, but they say "older acquisitions (Seinfeld, Friends, etc.) will be upconverted to the 1080i HD format."

that could mean stretchytime.

I wonder if this covers WTBS-DT here in Atlanta...

I think that what he means is that its been long known that Seinfeld was remastered in High Definition, but it hasn't beens shown in HD yet. The PR states that Seinfeld would be "upconverted", but I think that some of us hold out hope, that they it may eventually get shown in True HD instead of upconversion.

I think that what he means is that its been long known that Seinfeld was remastered in High Definition, but it hasn't beens shown in HD yet. The PR states that Seinfeld would be "upconverted", but I think that some of us hold out hope, that they it may eventually get shown in True HD instead of upconversion.

agreed. what reason would they have for not showing it in HD if it is available. do they have to sign a new syndication contract for the HD version?

I was waiting for this I was getting tired off see the TBS HD commerical for their comedy on TNT.
I'm pretty sure that all of those TBS commercials on TNT are just stretch-o-vision. They don't even show their own promos in HD. I don't know why, but the AutoTrader commercial is about the only HD commercial that they show. Even commercials that I've seen in HD on other networks are shown in stretch-o-vision on TNT.

Your completely right! My bad, sorry.
Maybe you were thinking of CNN, which is owned by Turner and set to go HD in the Fall.

agreed. what reason would they have for not showing it in HD if it is available. do they have to sign a new syndication contract for the HD version?I don't know what the reason is, but it likely could be the same reason that TNT-HD will show upconverted episodes of Judging Amy, NYPD:Blue, L&O, and others when HD versions of those shows were shown on Network TV. And I'm not talking about the seasons which pre-dated HD either.

Maybe you were thinking of CNN, which is owned by Turner and set to go HD in the Fall.
The TNT-HD and CNN relationship had not occurred to me. Yea, they are all part of the Time Warner media conglomerate, but I hadn't thought about that with respect to the stretch-o-vision part. From the TBS press release, it sounds like they will be stretching all the ads, so it is a good bet that TBS-HD will use the same horrible stretch-o-vision from hell that TNT-HD does. But would they use stretch-o-vision on CNN-HD???? Which will have a lot of SD source material for field reports, older footage, pretty much anything outside of the studio? If they stretch CNN-HD, that would be.... [shudder]

But would they use stretch-o-vision on CNN-HD???? Which will have a lot of SD source material for field reports, older footage, pretty much anything outside of the studio? If they stretch CNN-HD, that would be.... [shudder]
I agree, and I have a very bad feeling that CNN-HD will receive the same terrible fate.

I agree, and I have a very bad feeling that CNN-HD will receive the same terrible fate.
Since I hope they have some kind of "test group" for HD, I wonder who they are using for their testing group? I know it can't be HD users considering how much we bitch about it on here.

I said on another thread that subchannels are the devil. I'm going to add to that TNT stretch-o-vision is the devil.

I thought I read that even the remastered for HD Seinfeld episodes would still be 4:3. If so then stretchy Seinfeld here we come.

I bet TBS can't wait to break landmark ground and present HD Seinfeld in stretch-o-vision.

I don't get it. DVDs advertise "Original Theatrical Presentation." Why in the hell is Warner so bent on denying viewers the "Original Broadcast Presentation"?

Wow. 100 upconverted 4x3 SD channels will be here in no time.

Gotta love watching that "NBC Nightly News in HD". Who knew that having blue curtains on either side of 20 minutes of 4x3 SD reports could provide so many promotional opportunities for so many press release writers - both at NBC and at DirecTV ?

Wait until DirecTV viewers get their hands on A&E-HD ! The opportunity to watch reruns of "24" in 4x3 SD upconverted, boggles the mind ( A&E and DirecTV just has to make sure not to mention that all episodes of "24" can be rented on DVD in 16x9 without portions of the image missing. )

Memo from TBS to Brian Williams: "When you are finished with your one HD camera at 7:00pm ET, can we borrow it for an hour? It's clear from watching the NBC Nightly News that there is only one HD camera in the world, and we'd like to use it occasionally. Thanks! "

My email to TBS:

I see that you are going to bring TBS into the HD realm this September. That is both good and troubling news. The good part is obvious. HD. And baseball in HD.

The troubling part is the promise for a "consistent viewing experience" by having all programming in 16:9 presentation. To me that means the same stretching you are doing on TNT-HD, which is not a consistent viewing experience. See, on real HD and on 4:3 HD and SD programs, a ball is round. On 16:9 stretched content, a ball is not round. To me that is inconsistent. So is the stretching of people's faces or the ever popular stretching of the edges of a program to fill the screen. That means that as an image moves from the center of the screen to the edges, it changes shape. Very inconsistent. And nauseating.

The sad thing is that there are movies on TNT and comedies on TBS that I may very well watch except that I find stretching to make me physically ill and disoriented so that I watch ZERO of your programming. I am sure that your sponsors would be very happy with losing viewers because the show they are sponsoring (and their commercials) make people sick. Especially the food, beverage and candy sponsors.

Please reconsider your "consistent viewing experience." Filling a screen is not the aim of HD programming and should not be the standard for an HD channel that shows upconverted SD material as is necessary that stations like TBS and TNT do.

I bet TBS can't wait to break landmark ground and present HD Seinfeld in stretch-o-vision.

I don't get it. DVDs advertise "Original Theatrical Presentation." Why in the hell is Warner so bent on denying viewers the "Original Broadcast Presentation"?

Go back not that many years when J6P was complaining about those "black bars" at the top and bottom of his/her screen and demanded the pan and scan versions of movies on DVD.

Fast forward to today and now J6P has bought a new widescreen TV and is upset that there are side bars on the new TV. My guess is that those pan and scan movies are now being stretched, zoomed and cropped to fill up the entire screen.

I suspect the same mentality it at work with regular TV shows. When I go into restaurants with HD TVs, it is amazing how many times they are tuned to the SD version of a channel.....and stretched to fill the screen. I can't look. :eek:

<snip>Snarkiness -- really all types of sarcasm -- sure-fire means of having a letter to a company ignored.

Please, no stretch.

If any of you want "no side bars", either watch HD, or buy a square TV - but don't encourage stretching at the source (especially the goofy Alien-head stretch of TNTHD). Give us the proper programming format and let the individual viewer manipulate however they want - if they choose to.

My email to TBS:

I see that you are going to bring TBS into the HD realm this September. That is both good and troubling news. The good part is obvious. HD. And baseball in HD.

The troubling part is the promise for a "consistent viewing experience" by having all programming in 16:9 presentation. To me that means the same stretching you are doing on TNT-HD, which is not a consistent viewing experience. See, on real HD and on 4:3 HD and SD programs, a ball is round. On 16:9 stretched content, a ball is not round. To me that is inconsistent. So is the stretching of people's faces or the ever popular stretching of the edges of a program to fill the screen. That means that as an image moves from the center of the screen to the edges, it changes shape. Very inconsistent. And nauseating.

The sad thing is that there are movies on TNT and comedies on TBS that I may very well watch except that I find stretching to make me physically ill and disoriented so that I watch ZERO of your programming. I am sure that your sponsors would be very happy with losing viewers because the show they are sponsoring (and their commercials) make people sick. Especially the food, beverage and candy sponsors.

Please reconsider your "consistent viewing experience." Filling a screen is not the aim of HD programming and should not be the standard for an HD channel that shows upconverted SD material as is necessary that stations like TBS and TNT do.

Good letter Tony...
Being in Atlanta I get TBS ota. Hopefully enough people speak out and write to TBS and their sponsors so we don't endure this kind of programming.

See, on real HD and on 4:3 HD and SD programs, a ball is round. On 16:9 stretched content, a ball is not round. To me that is inconsistent.

A football is not round. The only way to get consistency is to stretch basketballs and baseballs and make them oblong. ;)

Will this channell show regular season Braves games in HD?

TBS switched from the Braves (this is the last season for them) to a national MLB package beginning next year. The MLB post-season TBS coverage begins this October. TBS will have a national Sunday game each week starting in 2008, along with all four division series and it will alternate the ALCS and NLCA games with Fox.

Although WTBS will carry 45 games a year from 2008-2013, they will only be seen in the Atlanta area -- and other cities in the Braves marketing area.

So more Braves games are headed for Sports South next year.

I thought I read that even the remastered for HD Seinfeld episodes would still be 4:3. If so then stretchy Seinfeld here we come.

Correct... Seinfeld was never shot with HD cameras nor was it intended for 16:9 viewing. They were in their last season when NBC started to do some HD shooting and it wasn't worth investing for just one season of Seinfeld.

That said... it was filmed, and film is higher than HD resolution... and every episode (at least every one released so far) has been remastered from the original film in HD for the DVD releases. This means we could see nice sharp 4:3 HD.

We can only hope TBSHD will have the good sense to not stretch... and will air with sidebars.

great. mlb playoffs in turner hd.

the mind recoils in horror.

flashbacks to the artifact filled, pixelated mutant broadcasts of the nba playoffs.

Any cable operator who isn't ready for them now is asleep at the switch. This means Comcast and Cablevision and Time Warner will have slow deployments.
TWC got TNT on launch date, and TBS is also owned by AOL Time Warner, so I would think this is one we will get by launch. Not that it meant anything for CinemaxHD, or that I expect any of the additional HBO and Cinemax HD channels to show up this fall.

The ad specifically mentions the MLB games, but I want to know if they will be doing any college football in HD this fall. Hopefully if not, they will at least follow the TNT guide and do live SD broadcasts pillarboxed.

I wonder if this covers WTBS-DT here in Atlanta...

I think I found the answer to my own question. It looks like those of us with D* in Atlanta may be screwed out of TBS entirely if someone at D* doesn't sit up and take notice...

Turner Broadcasting is going to split off WTBS local (aka good old channel 17) from TBS national (aka channel 247 on DirecTV) into 2 feeds. WTBS Atlanta will become Peachtree TV and some programming will change. Braves games will still be aired as planned since the contract has to be honored in full until it expires in 2010 or whenever. And you’ll probably still see the syndication but say goodbye to TBS Original programming . Peachtree TV will probably fill the available time with Andy Griffith and movies from the Turner library since it’s very cheap. Turner hopes that someone will buy the channel some day.
The national feed, TBS, will remain unchanged. This means people outside the North GA area won’t see any change. So, if you depend on rabbit ears or roof top antenna for television then WTBS is changing name, logo, and some programming. If you’re like me and have DirecTV with local in local package then you currently get 17, 17-1, 17-2 but NOT 247. But when the switch is flipped at DTV then the 17’s will be Peachtree TV and 247 will be TBS and the 2 feeds will no longer mirror each other as they do now. If you’re a DirecTV sub in Denver for example, then you already get 247 so nothing changes for you.
The employees will be told tomorrow and the press release goes out Thursday early AM.

TBS is showing 70 Braves games in 2007, nhlfan79.

Starting next season it will show 45, and only in the Braves marketing area (which includes parts of six states).

The missing Braves games will be switched for Sports South.

I have no idea who this source you quote so extensively is, but why would he or she think that the new national TBS HD feed would be blacked out in Atlanta? And why would MLB sign a deal to exclude Atlanta from many of its post-season games?

It is the local feed the rest of the nation won't get the local version of WTBS -- unless the 45 WTBS Braves games are part of the MLB-EI package.

So again, how do you figure Atlanta residents "...may be screwed out of TBS entirely..."?

The unofficial start date for many new HD offerings on DirecTV seems to be Sept. 5. But given the heavy emphasis on sports programming, it seems clear TBS will be offered at the latest by the time the baseball playoffs begin, with three games on Wednesday, October 3.

They announced a few weeks back that because the launch was delayed 3 weeks that the turn over to DirecTV will be around Sept 15th. So assuming all goes well I'd expect new channels by the end of Sept.

TBS is showing 70 Braves games in 2007, nhlfan79.

Starting next season it will show 45, and only in the Braves marketing area (which includes parts of six states).

The missing Braves games will be switched for Sports South.

I have no idea who this source you quote so extensively is, but why would he or she think that the new national TBS HD feed would be blacked out in Atlanta? And why would MLB sign a deal to exclude Atlanta from many of its post-season games?

It is the local feed the rest of the nation won't get the local version of WTBS -- unless the 45 WTBS Braves games are part of the MLB-EI package.

So again, how do you figure Atlanta residents "...may be screwed out of TBS entirely..."?

I think you may not have caught my emphasis on my qualification, i.e. if someone at D* isn't paying attention. Currently, we (rightly) are blacked out of channel 247, because TBS is one of our local-in-local channels. When WTBS flips the switch over to "Peachtree TV," we in Atlanta should no longer be denied either 247 or TBS-HD because they will be a programming feed that is distinct from Peachtree TV. I'm only lamenting the thought that D*'s programming department will drag its feet in recognizing the switchover for those of us in Atlanta. I'd love to be proved wrong.

Oh, and the basic info in the quote above will appear in tomorrow's AJC.

Thanks. Sources are always important. :)

Have you emailed DirecTV with your concern?

I just do not understand this (stretch-o-vision) line of thinking.

Why would an HD channel force you to watch it in stretch mode?

I have three HD monitors in my house. Everyone of them has the ability to pillar box, stetch, full etc.. right on the remote. And it is usually two or three choices, so it is not brain surgery here.

It is not complicated at all.

So why not let the viewers decide how they want to watch the show?

I know this seems simplified and rhetorical. But it really boggles my mind why they think most viewers or owners of widescreen tvs need for them to fill their screen. As if it can be too complicated to do themselves?!

stretched or not, get rid of the damn side bars!
I wish no one had such idiotic opinions, because you people make getting OAR from some content providers more difficult. Original Aspect Ratio is correct; all other forms of presentation are WRONG. Not just bad looking, but wrong. If you want to distort and destroy the original image, your television settings will allow you to do so. Asking the content provider to send a distorted image is foolish.

Wow. 100 upconverted 4x3 SD channels will be here in no time.

Gotta love watching that "NBC Nightly News in HD". Who knew that having blue curtains on either side of 20 minutes of 4x3 SD reports could provide so many promotional opportunities for so many press release writers - both at NBC and at DirecTV ?

Wait until DirecTV viewers get their hands on A&E-HD ! The opportunity to watch reruns of "24" in 4x3 SD upconverted, boggles the mind ( A&E and DirecTV just has to make sure not to mention that all episodes of "24" can be rented on DVD in 16x9 without portions of the image missing. )

Memo from TBS to Brian Williams: "When you are finished with your one HD camera at 7:00pm ET, can we borrow it for an hour? It's clear from watching the NBC Nightly News that there is only one HD camera in the world, and we'd like to use it occasionally. Thanks! "

Aww, come on. Leave NBC out of this. While I hate to defend that network's HD coverage, they at least have attempted to transition to HD news and you gotta admit that the PQ of the studio is pretty sharp.

I'm sure NBC has more than one HD camera. Unfortunately, they are all +2,500 lbs each and are either mounted in the studio or on a tower by the 18th green!

I'm sure NBC has more than one HD camera. Unfortunately, they are all +2,500 lbs each and are either mounted in the studio or on a tower by the 18th green!
NBC's HD golf coverage truck.

http://www.smeco.com/whatsnew/vehicle/3078.jpg

yes, but they say "older acquisitions (Seinfeld, Friends, etc.) will be upconverted to the 1080i HD format."

that could mean stretchytime.

Wanna get depressed? Go to the forums on the Universal HD site and look at the complaints about the HD versions of Northern Exposure "not filling the screen." :rolleyes:

When confronted with the whole aspect ratio explanation, they say they would prefer to have the content stretched or the top and bottom cut off. Morons. Kudos to Universal for recognizing the importance of maintaining the integrity of the original material. Let's hope TBS makes the same decision (though given their dubious work with TNT and their inexplicable HD embargo on the Braves this year, I'm not optimistic).

TBS switched from the Braves (this is the last season for them) to a national MLB package beginning next year. The MLB post-season TBS coverage begins this October. TBS will have a national Sunday game each week starting in 2008, along with all four division series and it will alternate the ALCS and NLCA games with Fox.

Although WTBS will carry 45 games a year from 2008-2013, they will only be seen in the Atlanta area -- and other cities in the Braves marketing area.

So more Braves games are headed for Sports South next year.

Also in the Atlanta area. TBS has had an HD channel in our Comcast lineup for a while now, and as previously mentioned, it is available OTA. The only HD content they ever showed on it were the Braves games, but for unknown reasons, TBS refuses to broadcast the Braves in HD this season (even though they are still producing the games in HD, as evidenced by HD broadcasts of the game available on HDTVs inside Turner Field). It's been a source of great frustration for Atlantans.

The only way we're able to see HD Braves games now is when they play on SportsSouth and the games are (sometimes) simulcast in HD on yet another Comcast channel (755, for Hank Aaron's unfortunately soon to be surpassed home run record), which exists only for this purpose.

Since I am lucky enough to live in the Braves home coverage area I am very excited about next season when even fewer games will be on TBS. This year they have shown that they could care less about the Braves Broadcasts. They quit broadcasting Home Games in HD even though the truck is HD and everything is already in place for HD. To my surprise, FCN's FSN South and Sports South have done a good job covering the Braves and in HD. All the home games are in HD and they act proud to carry the Braves instead of ashamed. Hopefully with another 35+ games on SS we will see some Road HD as well. (Maybe when we play other FSN covered teams) I hope that Turner sub-leases the remaining 45 Braves games to FSN/SS. Otherwise they are going to have to start some kind of new channel to cover the Braves outside of Atlanta which I'm sure would not be HD.

Also, one side note I've noticed from HD broadcasts on Turner Networks: When they are actually broadcasting an HD program like Braves Baseball or Basketball, 4x3 shots were shown with wings and not stretched to 16x9. So, hopefully, all of CNN's programming would be True HD and thus SD shots would be shown with wings. I'm not counting on it though...

Cheers,

I just do not understand this (stretch-o-vision) line of thinking.

Why would an HD channel force you to watch it in stretch mode?

I have three HD monitors in my house. Everyone of them has the ability to pillar box, stetch, full etc.. right on the remote. And it is usually two or three choices, so it is not brain surgery here.

It is not complicated at all.

So why not let the viewers decide how they want to watch the show?

I know this seems simplified and rhetorical. But it really boggles my mind why they think most viewers or owners of widescreen tvs need for them to fill their screen. As if it can be too complicated to do themselves?!

Right, HDTVs can stretch SD programming with ease, but I thought many HDTVs have problems with stretching HD content?

Right, HDTVs can stretch SD programming with ease, but I thought many HDTVs have problems with stretching HD content?

Why do you need to stretch HD content? :confused:

Many older HDTVs and STBs can't manipulate a high def image - however, those people have the option of tuning to the SD channel and stretch to their heart's content.

If they want to provide a consistent viewing experience why not give us nothing but HD?

Why do you need to stretch HD content? :confused:

I think what he may mean is that if the station is continually in "upconvert" mode, broadcasting a 4:3 image with pillarboxes, a particular set may see it as HD and not allow any picture modifications.

I think what he may mean is that if the station is continually in "upconvert" mode, broadcasting a 4:3 image with pillarboxes, a particular set may see it as HD and not allow any picture modifications.

Yes exactly, if they pillar box 4:3 content it will still come in as HD. The only station that I know of that switches their broadcast to SD from HD when they aren't showing HD content is our local PBS station. I have no idea how many sets can't stretch HD content but there has to be a decent amount, anyone have any idea?

Good news everyone!

OAR good; all stretched/cropped/pan&scanned manipulations bad. Turner has it wrong. ESPN used to stretch 4:3 content to 16:9, but they heard viewers' complaints and fixed it. Their presentation is now correct.
How can we end this scourge of non-OAR presentations?
Where did this bone-headed idea that the goal should be "fill my screen" originate? Why wasn't the originator shot?

Okay, so TBS is going HD and probably in time for the baseball playoffs. But who is going to carry it? For example, anybody have any knowledge as to whether Comcast will pick up the HD feed. And, will the broadcasts be available locally via OTA?

What do you mean by "locally"?

Ok... lets make this clear.... once and for all

WTBS-Atlanta and TBS are 2 different stations.

In fact - they will be even more different starting in September.

WTBS is ONLY available in the Atlanta area (OTA or any other way) (well... i guess Canada might get it actually... but thats another story) - WTBS has been available in HD... just like most other OTA stations. WTBS has shown lots of TBS content... but that is changing.

Most of us get the normal TBS.... which is finally going HD starting this September. And just like any other cable channel.... you can't get it OTA (this will be the same for Atlanta people it seems... depending on how different WTBS becomes from TBS)

Okay, so TBS is going HD and probably in time for the baseball playoffs. But who is going to carry it? For example, anybody have any knowledge as to whether Comcast will pick up the HD feed. And, will the broadcasts be available locally via OTA?
D* is the only provider I've heard of who is going to carry it.

of course if it were up to D* they would make it an exclusive.

If Comcast Boston doesn't have 831 up and running by the time of the Sox's first series,there will be hell to pay.

Aww, come on. Leave NBC out of this. While I hate to defend that network's HD coverage, they at least have attempted to transition to HD news and you gotta admit that the PQ of the studio is pretty sharp.

I'm sure NBC has more than one HD camera. Unfortunately, they are all +2,500 lbs each and are either mounted in the studio or on a tower by the 18th green!
That must mean the cameramen for "Rick Steve's Europe" are the strongest men in the world, as they carry around HD cameras on their shoulder all day long with better picture quality than 99% of HD programs.

Actually, you can see the camera in their recent "Making Of" episode - there would have to be Dwarf Star material inside for it to reach 2,500 pounds.

You can also regularly see cameramen with shoulder carried HD cameras on RaveHD concerts. Some of this is from 5 years ago, so they haven't been 2,500 pounds for a very long time.

That must mean the cameramen for "Rick Steve's Europe" are the strongest men in the world, as they carry around HD cameras on their shoulder all day long with better picture quality than 99% of HD programs.

Actually, you can see the camera in their recent "Making Of" episode - there would have to be Dwarf Star material inside for it to reach 2,500 pounds.

You can also regularly see cameramen with shoulder carried HD cameras on RaveHD concerts. Some of this is from 5 years ago, so they haven't been 2,500 pounds for a very long time.
Your sarcasm detector isn't very good, is it?

Thanks. Sources are always important. :)

Have you emailed DirecTV with your concern?


Sorry, as promised a couple of days ago, WTBS to flip formats locally in Atlanta.

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/stories/2007/06/28/0628bizturner.html

Your sarcasm detector isn't very good, is it?

Thanks for anticipating my exact response! :)

BTW, I must correct my earlier statement. NBC has three, not two cameras. One n studio, one on 18th green and one mounted on the White House lawn. ;)

What do you mean by "locally"?

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Here's my inquiry. In the situation where a local team makes the playoffs, will the team's games be broadcast on an OTA station locally, in addition to the national TBS broadcast? To word this differently, is TBS's coverage exclusive?

... is TBS's coverage exclusive?

For the playoffs, yes.

http://www.tbs.com/stories/story/0,,105320,00.html

Their regular season Sunday afternoon coverage starting in 2008 will not be, and will be blacked out in the participating teams local markets, or an alternate game will be shown.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Here's my inquiry. In the situation where a local team makes the playoffs, will the team's games be broadcast on an OTA station locally, in addition to the national TBS broadcast? To word this differently, is TBS's coverage exclusive?


O - I understand now.

Yes - TBS broadcast will be shown locally OTA for the teams playing during the playoffs (just like ESPN has been).

For example. In the NYC market - If they are showing the Yanks or Mets playoff game - the TBS feed will be seen on a local OTA channel (as long as a station obtains the rights to do so.... but I'd assume that would happen)

Now.... will HD be available OTA? That remains to be seen.... (ESPN got its act together for Monday Night Football this past season - games were seen in HD - and NFL Network games were seen in local markets in HD as well... so its definitely possible nowadays...)

D* is the only provider I've heard of who is going to carry it.mpeg2 or mpeg4?

Is it my imagination, or do we not know anything more about whether the games will be broadcast in HD locally than we did three messages ago? :)

j/k

It will be MPEG-4, as, apparently, all new HD offerings will be from DirecTV.

mpeg2 or mpeg4?

MPEG4 of course, as will all new HD. ;)

agreed. what reason would they have for not showing it in HD if it is available. do they have to sign a new syndication contract for the HD version?

The most likely reason is that the syndication versions are not (yet) available in HD. The HD masters are the full-length network versions, and outlets like TBS (and local stations) run edited (ie: shorter) versions to gain more commercial time. If Sony doesn't make the syndication versions available in HD -- and as of this moment, no one has ever reported seeing one -- then they have no HD versions to run.

This is just speculation on my part though, but it's the only reason I can think of for NOT running the HD version.

I don't know what the reason is, but it likely could be the same reason that TNT-HD will show upconverted episodes of Judging Amy, NYPD:Blue, L&O, and others when HD versions of those shows were shown on Network TV. And I'm not talking about the seasons which pre-dated HD either.


Its not like they don't want to. Sometimes getting HD copies of shows have to be renegotiated, often with the original owners jacking up the price in the process and in other situations it could be that HD copies are hard to transport properly. A good example is the remastered Star Trek episodes, HD is available however most stations don't show it because they don't have the infrastructure to store it on their pathfire system.

With so many times that TNT shows an SD version after already showing the HD version, I think the biggest issue is getting someone at TNT to show an interest in putting out a decent product on the HD feed. I'd assume it is more likely that there is little to no effort in acquiring HD products before I'd assume that there's some legitimate issue preventing it.

TBS to Go High Def September 1st
By Anthony Crupi MediaWeek June 26, 2007


To maintain consistency and avoid the diminished visual experience of pillaring, all commercials on TBS in HD will be presented in a widescreen format.



If I want to stretch the damn screen, let me do it myself.

I despise having fathead vision forced on the pubic and allows the JSP's with "Hach Dee" sets w/out tuners to say..."heck we'f got Hach dee ya, don't need no stinkin' tuner"

Bad move Ted

Ted Turner has nothing to do with TBS anymore.

TBS currently runs its original series “My Boys” and “The Bill Engvall Show,” as well as first-run series “Tyler Perry’s House of Payne,” in HD. “Seinfeld” and “Sex and the City” will be upconverted from standard definition, while some later seasons of “Friends” and “Everybody Loves Raymond” will be in HD.

http://tvweek.com/news/2007/06/tbs_launching_hd_channel_sept.php

According to Michael Hiestand of USA Today, that is not the way it will work:

"...Unlike ESPN's old postseason home coverage, games on TBS will only be on cable and satellite TV — with no over-the-air TV coverage in cities with teams in the playoffs...."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/hiestand-tv/2007-06-28-hiestand-weekend_N.htm

O - I understand now.

Yes - TBS broadcast will be shown locally OTA for the teams playing during the playoffs (just like ESPN has been).

For example. In the NYC market - If they are showing the Yanks or Mets playoff game - the TBS feed will be seen on a local OTA channel (as long as a station obtains the rights to do so.... but I'd assume that would happen)

Now.... will HD be available OTA? That remains to be seen.... (ESPN got its act together for Monday Night Football this past season - games were seen in HD - and NFL Network games were seen in local markets in HD as well... so its definitely possible nowadays...)

http://tvweek.com/news/2007/06/tbs_launching_hd_channel_sept.php
Did Friends ever even show in HD? I know the picture looks great, but I thought they were just using VERY good 35mm film in 4:3 SD.
(Sorry, loved the show, but it ended 1 season before I got HD)

It's so werid about the Seinfeld thing. You would think Sony would want to get the HD version out as much as possible, given how much cash they spent remastering it in HD.
I thought they had 16:9 crops? Maybe they would show that instead.

TBS to Go High Def September 1st
By Anthony Crupi MediaWeek June 26, 2007

To maintain consistency and avoid the diminished visual experience of pillaring, all commercials on TBS in HD will be presented in a widescreen format.
Diminished visual experience? Are they freaking kidding here? Pillars that preserve the OAR diminish the visual experience, but their distorted stretching doesn't? They make me sick.

Diminished visual experience? Are they freaking kidding here? Pillars that preserve the OAR diminish the visual experience, but their distorted stretching doesn't? They make me sick.
Not if you don't watch.....

Not if you don't watch.....
I wish it was that easy. Unfortunately I will watch, and so my only solace is being able to complain about it on here.

Not if you don't watch.....

I haven't tuned to TBS once in the last 10-15 years...

According to Michael Hiestand of USA Today, that is not the way it will work:

"...Unlike ESPN's old postseason home coverage, games on TBS will only be on cable and satellite TV — with no over-the-air TV coverage in cities with teams in the playoffs...."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/hiestand-tv/2007-06-28-hiestand-weekend_N.htm


Wow...

I hope this guy doesn't know what he is talking about....

Because if that's true... then MLB made a huge mistake in this TV contract....

I thought they were looking for ways to expand their TV coverage...

I wish it was that easy. Unfortunately I will watch, and so my only solace is being able to complain about it on here.

You should also complain to the station. If you take the time to complain here you can also take the time to complain by sending an email to the station to tell them how your really feel. Personally, I could care less if anyone carries TBSHD especially if they follow in TNT's footsteps. I have never seen such an overall garbage HD picture quality in my life. If I had the option of dropping their service I would, but I don't because its part of a total package. The only choice I have is to not watch it, and I don't.

If TBS really wants to see viewers reaction, they should come to this board and compare the number of posts/threads that praise/complain about TNTHD concerning stretch-o-vision.

And also when ESPNHD went live how many complained about them stretching the screen also. ESPN got the message and starting using side bars.

Plain and simple.

When I get TBS HD and if its stretch o vision, i'll be writing to them daily, asking for pillars

And also when ESPNHD went live how many complained about them stretching the screen also. ESPN got the message and starting using side bars.
ESPN got the message and changed early on. TNT has been like this for years, and they still believe that they are doing the right thing. I can't see them changing.

I encourage everyone to email tbsinfo@turner.com and ask for no "stretch-o-vision" and pillar bars on non widescreen and use OAR on all content

I encourage everyone to email tbsinfo@turner.com and ask for no "stretch-o-vision" and pillar bars on non widescreen and use OAR on all content
I just sent them an email asking (ok, pleading) for no stretch-o-vision. Be interesting to see if I even get a boilerplate reply. Doubt it.

I just sent them an email asking (ok, pleading) for no stretch-o-vision. Be interesting to see if I even get a boilerplate reply. Doubt it.

I requested a reply to a quite lengthy email with links to threads on this forum and other info regards pillars vs. stretching.

We'll see in the next week if a canned reply comes back or somebody actually reads to message

To maintain consistency and avoid the diminished visual experience of pillaring, all commercials on TBS in HD will be presented in a widescreen format.
Diminished visual experience? Are they freaking kidding here? Pillars that preserve the OAR diminish the visual experience, but their distorted stretching doesn't? They make me sick.
I'm enjoying all the high dudgeon going on in here about stretch-o-vision!

Another thing to consider is that by playing the SD commercials stretched to 16:9 and making them look bad, TBS is essentially lighting a fire under the a$$es of the commercial providers to get on the stick and start providing commercials in HD format. HD networks started reaching critical mass a couple years ago now, it's time to get moving on HD commercial delivery, guys.

See also http://www.google.com/search?q=dg+fastchannel+pathfire+hd+commercials .

Everything comes down to which problem that you (a company in the TV business) decide to push money at ...

Another thing to consider is that by playing the SD commercials stretched to 16:9 and making them look bad, TBS is essentially lighting a fire under the a$$es of the commercial providers to get on the stick and start providing commercials in HD format.

But it doesn't really work that way. The network doesn't care whether the commercial is in HD, SD, B&W, or scrolling text as long as the advertisers pay. TNT has shown episodes of shows commercial-free with a small break and an intro by the company paying for all the advertising spot on that show.

If the company pays, and doesn't create something that violates public decency on the airwaves... then TBS, TNT, and all the other channels really don't care what the commercials look like.

Another thing to consider is that by playing the SD commercials stretched to 16:9 and making them look bad, TBS is essentially lighting a fire under the a$$es of the commercial providers to get on the stick and start providing commercials in HD format.
TNT plays a ton of HD commercials in SD. Pretty much the only HD commercial I ever see on there is the AutoTrader one.

It's interesting. We were watching The Librarian (1 & 2) today (nothing else was on), and practically every commercial was in HD, and most were incredibly crisp and clear.

I get TBS OTA feed through Comcast Cable in Atlanta. The last couple of years, they had been showing the Braves home games in HD. It was hands down some of the best looking HD you will see. That is the ONLY true HD content I have seen on TBS in the last 2 years.

This year, they quit showing the home games on TBS in HD. Hopefully, the HD they show in their shows, will rival the baseball HD from years past.

I concurr with this 100%. I hate the so-called "America Pastime" but the few times that I did catch the Braves OTA it was a sight to behold. Same thing this preseason with YES & the Yankees on MPEG4 on D*

yes, but they say "older acquisitions (Seinfeld, Friends, etc.) will be upconverted to the 1080i HD format."

that could mean stretchytime.

All Seinfeld episodes have been remastered in HD (I don't know if 720p or 10801) but the format is still 1:33-1 so it will probably be a Mr. Fantastic stretch-taculer effort.

All Seinfeld episodes have been remastered in HD (I don't know if 720p or 10801) but the format is still 1:33-1 so it will probably be a Mr. Fantastic stretch-taculer effort.
It will be beyond pathetic if they stretch 4:3 HD content. But I'm sure they will, because they wouldn't want to ruin our viewing experience by not distorting the picture.

Also, I dont know about seinfeld but I think someone told me its now 16:9 due to cropping and using the extra areas of film, though I have no confirmation and if you know otherwise correct me.

The DVDs were downconverted from the HD masters, and they're 4:3, but it's possible they also made cropped 16:9 versions. I've seen some film frames from the original camera negative, and the exposed area is very close to 4:3, so there's really no way to make it 16:9 other than by cropping the top and bottom.

I mention this in another thread, but when HDNet shows Hogan's Hero's in HD they do a little zooming but there are still skinny little side bars. They might be stretching a bit too but you can hardly see it if they are.

All Seinfeld episodes have been remastered in HD (I don't know if 720p or 10801) but the format is still 1:33-1 so it will probably be a Mr. Fantastic stretch-taculer effort.

1:32 (33-1)? Never heard of that aspect ratio but it would be very narrow I think. I believe you meant 1.33:1. :)

With the number of high profile HD channels that are starting up this fall, I hope the cable companies and Verizon are making plans to add them much more quickly than they have been.

If they don't, (Comcast) will lose my $125/month cable service.

Figure they'll add the ones that a lot of their subscribers really care about.

Man I hope not. Not only that, will all programs be listed as HD?

So you'd rather see people with fat heads instead of a more true looking picture that happens to have side bars? Do you like the look TNT HD uses?

Why can't they do what Universal HD does with Northern Exposure? That broadcast usually looks fantastic.

Why can't they do what Universal HD does with Northern Exposure? That broadcast usually looks fantastic.
Because Universal HD is diminishing the viewing experience! How dare they keep the aspect ratio correct. TNT doesn't want to make us sad by wasting space on the screen with black bars.

Why can't they do what Universal HD does with Northern Exposure? That broadcast usually looks fantastic.


Because Northern Exposure is 4:3 but actually re-mastered to HD....

Anything TNT shows that is in "Stretch-o-vision" is SD!!

The few things TNT has shown in HD that is originally in 4:3 stays in 4:3 (Wizard of Oz)

If TBS can show Seinfeld in (remastered) HD - then we wont have to worry about stretch-o-vision....


(The reason TNT continues to use it for their "upconverted" (i hate that word... its so misleading...) SD content on the HD channel is because most people prefer to use their TV's "gradual stretch" feature on SD channels - which is unavailable on most TVs when the signal is 720p or 1080i.)

(The reason TNT continues to use it for their "upconverted" (i hate that word... its so misleading...) SD content on the HD channel is because most people prefer to use their TV's "gradual stretch" feature on SD channels - which is unavailable on most TVs when the signal is 720p or 1080i.)
Obviously. But "most people" are clueless about this stuff, and TNT shouldn't cater to them. It would even be a bit more acceptable if they used linear stretching, so that the TV could compress it back to 4:3. But no, they can't even do that. So the stretching can't be undone, and the only option left is to watch the SD channel.

Obviously. But "most people" are clueless about this stuff, and TNT shouldn't cater to them. Generally speaking, the folks who own networks are best served by those networks catering to "most people", rather than to niche interests.

Generally speaking, the folks who own networks are best served by those networks catering to "most people", rather than to niche interests.
I agree, to a point. But when it comes to things like aspect ratio, the network should put their foot down. The number of people who wouldn't watch TNT because they pillar-boxed SD content would be miniscule. The bottom line is that they are sending out a distorted picture, and telling us that it's better.

You seem to imply that the network actually should have a personal preference. Currently, all the commercial and cable networks in the United States are owned by corporations, for which there is a fiduciary responsibility to act in the best financial interests of the owners. No personal preferences are permitted.

You seem to imply that the network actually should have a personal preference. Currently, all the commercial and cable networks in the United States are owned by corporations, for which there is a fiduciary responsibility to act in the best financial interests of the owners. No personal preferences are permitted.
I understand, but what I'm saying is that intentionally distorting the picture they send out shouldn't even be an option in the first place. Nobody is going to not watch because of pillar bars, so there is no financial hit.

Generally speaking, the folks who own networks are best served by those networks catering to "most people", rather than to niche interests.
If they did the Pillar like ESPN, which lets the viewer know that the pillars are supposed to be there, the complaints from the disinterested would be minimal and over in a few weeks. I realize that if you just left black bars on the side that people like my parents would think their TV was broken. But, if you put the art-worked bars up the transition is much easier.

In other words, there is a solution that doesn't involve distorting the image.

I understand, but what I'm saying is that intentionally distorting the picture they send out shouldn't even be an option in the first place.In business, everything legal is an option, and should be. Eliminating choices available due to personal preferences is a sign of poor management skills.

Nobody is going to not watch because of pillar bars, so there is no financial hit.I don't believe you. I don't think you really know how many people would or would not watch, or would watch more versus less, due to pillar bars. I also don't think you really know how much financial impact there would be.

If they did the Pillar like ESPN, which lets the viewer know that the pillars are supposed to be there, the complaints from the disinterested would be minimal and over in a few weeks.Perhaps, but we're really just guessing here. "They" actually have the responsibility to apply their experience, expertise, market research and professionalism to make the best determination in this regard that they can, rather than making a hopeful prediction as you've done here. I sure do wish you were correct, though.

I realize that if you just left black bars on the side that people like my parents would think their TV was broken.And I know some people (older members of my family, in my case as well) who would take anything other than filling their screen as a failure on the part of the broadcaster. It's not rational, but the American television viewer isn't ever accused of being a rational beast.

In other words, there is a solution that doesn't involve distorting the image.No, not a solution; an option. A solution requires clear evidence, which unfortunately, we're probably not going to be able to get our hands on, unless it was our job to do so.

I don't believe you. I don't think you really know how many people would or would not watch, or would watch more versus less, due to pillar bars. I also don't think you really know how much financial impact there would be.
I don't have any hard evidence. But I can offer up the fact that the big four networks, which are certainly the most-watched HD channels, all use pillar bars. If there was some evidence that pillar bars made people not watch your network, don't you think that the big four would be the first ones to stretch their content? They aren't even using stylized pillars like ESPN does, they're just straight black. It's been like this since the beginning, and there's no great uproar about it.

I would put the four major broadcast networks on the far right of the spectrum, being much more conservative than their more innovative and risk-taking cable network counterparts.

I would put the four major broadcast networks on the far right of the spectrum, being much more conservative than their more innovative and risk-taking cable network counterparts.
But the way you're talking, wouldn't it be a "risk" to piss people off with pillars, instead of "helping" them out and using up the whole screen?

Generally speaking, the folks who own networks are best served by those networks catering to "most people", rather than to niche interests.

Thats why "most people" should watch the SD version of the channel....!And let us niches folks have the original aspect ratio....NOT STRETCH-OVISION on the HD version of the channel!!! :mad:

ANYBODY AGREE?

I would put the four major broadcast networks on the far right of the spectrum, being much more conservative than their more innovative and risk-taking cable network counterparts.

That's a ridiculous generalization - and it isn't even consistent with the reality of what is happening right now. How many of these "more innovative" cablenets have a panorama stretch HD channel for 4:3 material? There's a single channel I can think of - TNT HD and the fact that the same people responsible for TBS have decided to duplicate it doesn't make it the industry standard for non-broadcast nets. It is still the exception in the cable marketplace.

That poses an interesting conundrum for someone like bicker1 who always believes that cable channels can do no wrong simply because they have paid experts calling the shots and any opposing opinion must necessarily be that of an insignificant majority. That being the case, who is wrong, TNT or all the other networks who do not stretch their programming?

Let me guess - the majority of TNT viewers prefer their programming stretched, but ESPN, NBC, FOX, ABC, CBS, CW, and all the others' viewers have a majority who prefer pillar bars. :rolleyes:

ANYBODY AGREE?You're asking the wrong people. You're asking enthusiasts. You've no chance of getting an accurate picture of reality here.

That's a ridiculous generalizationNot as ridiculous as the generalization which I was replying to. Improvement is improvement. Better is better.

and it isn't even consistent with the reality of what is happening right now.You mean it isn't consistent with the reality you wish would come to be.

You mean it isn't consistent with the reality you wish would come to be.

There you go trying to tell people what they mean because what they actually said isn't something you can respond to.

The reality is that TNT is alone with their goofy stretch of 4:3 material. You claimed that only the broadcast nets don't stretch because they aren't as innovative as cable nets. :rolleyes: That isn't remotely reflective of the reality - hence my comments.

I take it your circuits overload when faced with a situation where you can't blindly tow a company line without criticising another company's actions. Either TNT has their head up their butt, or every other network does. Clearly a condition not confined to corporate entities.

We could almost merge this one and the most recent TNT thread together. :cool: The reality is that TNT is alone with their goofy stretch of 4:3 material. You claimed that only the broadcast nets don't stretch because they aren't as innovative as cable nets. :rolleyes: That isn't remotely reflective of the reality - hence my comments.
Since I know bicker likes to post in terms of numbers of viewers, the stations that don't stretch 4:3 content gets many millions more viewers than the station that does stretch 4:3 content.

Every now and then I watch TBS but if they are pulling the same crap that TNT is right now I will watch much less of this station than I currently do.

The reality is that TNT is alone with their goofy stretch of 4:3 material. You claimed that only the broadcast nets don't stretch because they aren't as innovative as cable nets. :rolleyes: That isn't remotely reflective of the reality - hence my comments.

I take it your circuits overload when faced with a situation where you can't blindly tow a company line without criticising another company's actions. Either TNT has their head up their butt, or every other network does. Clearly a condition not confined to corporate entities.
Sadly, TNT-HD is not alone for stretching 4:3 material. I don't know who carries it yet beyond Verizon Fios, but Lifetime Movie Network HD also stretches the SD movies. They appear to use linear stretch, not the bizarro non-linear stretch of TNT-HD. I think they also stretch the commercials, but I only channel surf pass LMN-HD, as I am not the target audience for that channel.

These arguments with bicker1 have gotten pointless and taken on the aspect of arguing with a troll or the village idiot. Waste of time.

Who's to say Turner won't do this with all their upcoming HD channels(CNN, Cartoon Network, TBS, etc.). Other networks that have the same policy need to informed by their audience. If Turner/other network believes that by displaying 4:3 content with pillar/side bars is causing people to say their TVs are "broken", the we(the people who care about picture quality) should complain that by stretching the content you are "breaking" our TVs. If Turner/other network displayed pillar/side bars, at least the decision to stretch the picture is dependent on the viewer, not the provider. Almost every TV has a stretch button, Turner/other network just needs to take their hand off that.

Almost every TV has a stretch button, Turner/other network just needs to take their hand off that.

Yes... but not for HD signaled channels.

The point is.... They stretch SD content ONLY to fill the screen on the HD channel.

If you want to watch 4:3 and do what you want with it - go to the SD channel - its the same picture.

If you want to watch 4:3 and do what you want with it - go to the SD channel - its the same picture.

No, it's not. SD content looks much better on the HD channel than the SD channel.

Yes... but not for HD signaled channels.
My TV may not stretch HD signaled channels, but my cable box (SA8300...pretty common from what I hear) will. And in order to receive TNT-HD and the future TBS-HD in most places, you have to have a cable box.

My TV may not stretch HD signaled channels, but my cable box (SA8300...pretty common from what I hear) will. And in order to receive TNT-HD and the future TBS-HD in most places, you have to have a cable box.
That's interesting. My DirecTV receivers (H20 and HR20) won't do anything to an HD channel aside from outputting it in your chosen resolution.

If we just had AFD, this whole mess wouldn't be an issue.

That's interesting. My DirecTV receivers (H20 and HR20) won't do anything to an HD channel aside from outputting it in your chosen resolution.

If we just had AFD, this whole mess wouldn't be an issue.

pen's correct; it does stretch, zoom 1 & zoom 2.

Who's to say Turner won't do this with all their upcoming HD channels(CNN, Cartoon Network, TBS, etc.).

TBS in HD will present all of its programming, including promotional content and commercials, in 16:9 wide-screen, giving viewers a consistent viewing experience.

http://turnerinfo.com/newsitem.aspx?P=TBS&CID01=da5cc266-f285-4ffa-946a-caa69bd443ff

No, it's not. SD content looks much better on the HD channel than the SD channel.


.....

I give up....

These arguments with bicker1 have gotten pointless and taken on the aspect of arguing with a troll or the village idiot. Waste of time.If you believe that, then stop responding. Furthermore, I can assure you that if you don't presume to put your personal preference over the professional judgment of experienced folks actually doing the job, I'd have no interest in posting the messages I post in the first place! You have total control over whether your messages become the object of these discussions or not.

.....

I give up....

Seriously? I thought this was a well established reality that the high bandwidth allowed for HD channels leads to the most optimal presentation of SD content.

Pick a network and switch between the HD channel and the SD channel during an SD broadcast and tell me there isn't a noticeable improvement in picture quality.

Furthermore, I can assure you that if you don't presume to put your personal preference over the professional judgment of experienced folks actually doing the job

Isn't that exactly what you are doing by supporting TNTs decision despite it differing from the professional judgement of experienced folks actually doing the same job over at the other networks?

Apparently, the professional opinions differ and you've picked a side based on your own personal preference for a non-linear stretch. The majority of us prefer 4:3 material unstretched, and the majority of professionals happen to agree with us.

In every other topic, you seem to think the network executives are always correct. Why do you presume in this case that they are all wrong, and you (and TNT) happen to be correct? They get paid to make these decisions, and you are just a single viewer - don't you think they know what they are doing - or at least far more qualified than you to make that decision?

Berk32, I guess I misanticipated how many TVs have a stretch button. But my TV(Toshiba TheaterWideHD) does stretch an HD channel. My HD channels make SD look very crisp, but yours may be different.

Marcus Carr, I knew that TBS would do the 16:9 "viewing experience", but I would like to know if Turner will do this with the rest of their channels.

I guess all HD boxes/TVs should have a stretch function so that cable/broadcast channels won't have to.

Marcus Carr, I knew that TBS would do the 16:9 "viewing experience", but I would like to know if Turner will do this with the rest of their channels.


If they show anything in SD I'd bet it will be stretched. I don't see why they would have a different policy for their other channels.

Isn't that exactly what you are doing by supporting TNTs decision despite it differing from the professional judgement of experienced folks actually doing the same job over at the other networks?

Apparently, the professional opinions differ and you've picked a side based on your own personal preference for a non-linear stretch. The majority of us prefer 4:3 material unstretched, and the majority of professionals happen to agree with us.

In every other topic, you seem to think the network executives are always correct. Why do you presume in this case that they are all wrong, and you (and TNT) happen to be correct? They get paid to make these decisions, and you are just a single viewer - don't you think they know what they are doing - or at least far more qualified than you to make that decision?

Well said CP. It's almost impossible to argue with someone who is entrenched with "research". Liars figure and figures lie.

I suggested Bicker should go into politics. But, we see that he already is. Telling people "trust us, we know whats best" is the core of politics. It's usually followed by "I don't have any recollection of that conversation senator".

Isn't that exactly what you are doing by supporting TNTs decision despite it differing from the professional judgement of experienced folks actually doing the same job over at the other networks?I'm not so much supporting TNT's decision than objecting to the criticisms-without-foundation-of-objective-evidence to it.

Apparently, the professional opinions differ and you've picked a side based on your own personal preference for a non-linear stretch.My personal preference is not non-linear stretch. I haven't revealed my personal preference in this thread, and won't, because my point is that personal preferences are irrelevant.

In every other topic, you seem to think the network executives are always correct.Again, no. I think that people online are too quick to place too much importance in their own personal preferences.

Why do you presume in this case that they are all wrong, <snip> (and TNT) happen to be correct?Because the network execs are professionals, with qualified experience and expertise, subject to review by peers and sometimes also media who are also suitably qualified, which it is cheap-and-easy for quasi-anonymous people on the Internet to take baseless pot-shots. Also, beyond qualifications, they actually have a vested interest in doing what's best for the company versus viewer-enthusiasts who typically only have a vested interest in what's doing best for viewer-enthusiasts. Generally, viewers are most qualified to say what's best for viewers; companies are most qualified to say what's best for companies.

There are a few of you who invested a ton of money and expected the providers to satisfy you by providing perfect signals, and when those providers decided to focus on making the majority of HD viewers happy by providing the most amount of HDs available, at a PQ that looks fine on their HDTVs, then that is too bad because those providers are not obligated to make a few of you happy, if they believe making the majority of HD viewers happy is their top priority, end of story!This (found in another thread here) is really a good, supporting point, to what I've been saying.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11049119&&#post11049119

Because the network execs are professionals, with qualified experience and expertise, subject to review by peers and sometimes also media who are also suitably qualified, which it is cheap-and-easy for quasi-anonymous people on the Internet to take baseless pot-shots. Also, beyond qualifications, they actually have a vested interest in doing what's best for the company versus viewer-enthusiasts who typically only have a vested interest in what's doing best for viewer-enthusiasts.

And despite those qualifications, you claim all those network execs are wrong and you and the TNT execs are right?

You're either promoting your own personal preference for the non-linear stretch, or your own personal opinion that TNT execs are more qualified to make the call than all other network execs.

Because the network execs are professionals, with qualified experience and expertise, subject to review by peers and sometimes also media who are also suitably qualified, which it is cheap-and-easy for quasi-anonymous people on the Internet to take baseless pot-shots. Also, beyond qualifications, they actually have a vested interest in doing what's best for the company versus viewer-enthusiasts who typically only have a vested interest in what's doing best for viewer-enthusiasts. Generally, viewers are most qualified to say what's best for viewers; companies are most qualified to say what's best for companies.

And as the highly skilled network executives continue to whine about the defection of the audience, they point the finger at everything except the escellation of interruptions and distractions during their programing. I don't think it is a coincidence that the two things are inverse.

The idea that you stick a pin in your viewers until the majority screams, then back it off a notch is faulty in the extreme. Why not try something creative like treating your programming and viewers with respect.

If you believe that, then stop responding. Furthermore, I can assure you that if you don't presume to put your personal preference over the professional judgment of experienced folks actually doing the job, I'd have no interest in posting the messages I post in the first place! You have total control over whether your messages become the object of these discussions or not.

What? Just because they have a degree from Devry suddenly means they know better than everyone else? That's like saying everything the president does is right simply because he's the president. Wrong is wrong, no matter who you are or what title you hold. And saying we're wrong for calling TBS/TNT on a bad decision to appeal to the lowest common denominator is stupid and, quite frankly, a little bit fascist.

And as the highly skilled network executives continue to whine about the defection of the audience, they point the finger at everything except the escellation of interruptions and distractions during their programing.Again, I understand that you would like the reality to be that the things you don't like are the cause for the loss of viewership. You can guess, or make assumptions, but "they" are actually in a better position to, and have a vested interest in, actually knowing the truth.

My personal guess about defection of audience rests with the following (in no specific order): DVDs, the Internet, new cable nets, improved cable nets, new video game systems, etc. Note that my guess doesn't support my own personal preference whatsoever.

The idea that you stick a pin in your viewers until the majority screams, then back it off a notch is faulty in the extreme. Why not try something creative like treating your programming and viewers with respect.Again, I understand that you would like the reality to be that viewers would respond positively to what you have chosen to label with the emotionally-laden term "respect" (which I understand in reality is just a deceptive way of saying the networks should present their programs the way you personally want to see them presented). As I mentioned, you can guess, or make assumptions, but "they" are actually in a better position to, and have a vested interest in, actually knowing the truth.

As I mentioned, you can guess, or make assumptions, but "they" are actually in a better position to, and have a vested interest in, actually knowing the truth.
That's true. But it doesn't mean they actually DO know the truth.

What? Just because they have a degree from Devry suddenly means they know better than everyone else?First, I don't think every single network exec we're discussing here has a degree from Devry. Besides the inaccuracy of the statement itself, saying so is a really unnecessary (and therefore inappropriate), derogatory remark against Devry.

Second, I have been meticulous in this thread to ensure that I highlighted the three advantages "they" have: Experience, expertise and professionalism. I didn't even mention education. So your remarks are even more off-target.

That's like saying everything the president does is right simply because he's the president.Not it isn't. Your analogy is completely wrong. What I'm saying is like saying (I highlighted that to point out that this is a counter-analogy rather than an actual assertion to be discussed) that decisions made by the President are more reliable indicators of the will of the American people than decisions made by Tybee. Note the word "reliable". (I mention that because I am worried that you'll post another erroneous reply because you overlooked that word or its meaning.)

Even though I'm a fiscal conservative, I happen to disagree with a lot the current President decides, but over the course of at least the last six Presidents or so, I trust their collective judgment with regard to the decisions they've made on behalf of the country far far more than I would trust you to have made such decisions, based on how little I know about you, and how unlikely it is that you would have better credentials to make the decisions the President make than the people who the American public actually elected. That's not a personal dig -- not at all -- it's just a reflection of reasonable probabilities.

Wrong is wrong, no matter who you are or what title you hold.What I've learned as I've grown older is that reasonable people disagree about issues of "right" and "wrong". Regardless, business decisions aren't moralistic issues like that -- they're objective, not subjective. And the law is that corporations must make business decisions in the best interest of their owners.

That's true. But it doesn't mean they actually DO know the truth.Indeed, so we need to evaluate the situation based on what the most reasonable assumption would be. Who knows better what is the right decision for an enterprise? People with experience, expertise and professionalism, who have a vested interest in making the best decision for the enterprise? or people with no specific level of same, with a vested interest in making the best decision for their own personal preference?

Again, I understand that you would like the reality to be that the things you don't like are the cause for the loss of viewership. You can guess, or make assumptions, but "they" are actually in a better position to, and have a vested interest in, actually knowing the truth.Actually NBC is the perfect example. They ditched most of their high cost programming. They have a higher net performance. However, they had much lower revenue and even though they reported it as an increase in profit margin, they actually made less money. They however, dropped like a rock in viewership. But, they declared it a win.

The point is, the execs will spin the story using whatever numbers fit their story. They are NOT trying to provide a product to the viewers.

You probably don't think I know the difference between corporate fiscal responsibilities and balancing that with customer service. However, you would be mistaken. I think that the short sighted approach to finance is what hurts broadcasting, communications and transportation for examples. To few people have too much of their own personal interest at stake to make a long term fiscal decision.


My personal guess about defection of audience rests with the following (in no specific order): DVDs, the Internet, new cable nets, improved cable nets, new video game systems, etc. Note that my guess doesn't support my own personal preference whatsoever.
Although I won't argue that these are some of the places people are going, you haven't addressed WHY they are going. TV has proven again and again that they can compete against those adversaries when the product is good enough. Instead they take the stance of squeezing all they can out of whats left over. It's a very defeatist approach.


Again, I understand that you would like the reality to be that viewers would respond positively to what you have chosen to label with the emotionally-laden term "respect" (which I understand in reality is just a deceptive way of saying the networks should present their programs the way you personally want to see them presented). As I mentioned, you can guess, or make assumptions, but "they" are actually in a better position to, and have a vested interest in, actually knowing the truth.
No, they are not in a better position. I've stated one of the reasons above. But their are more. The execs are not part of the culture they are serving is another.

Lastly, I'm not really emotional about this. In fact it's more entertaining than emotional. I find it humorous that you can, with a straight face (or keystroke), that the networks are not pushing the advertising envelope as far as they possibly can and doing so knowing they are risking viwership. I DO understand the financial need to do so to a certain degree. However, I think it is a losing spiral.

The point is, the execs will spin the story using whatever numbers fit their story.Absolutely, but that isn't the point, because what we were discussing was whether the network would do better kowtowing to the personal preferences of specific online posters versus making sound business decisions based on expertise, experience and data. They are NOT trying to provide a product to the viewers. They better not be. Their job is to deliver financial performance to owners. Satisfying viewers (to the correct extent) is merely a tool to accomplish their fiduciary responsibility, placed on them by our laws.

You probably don't think I know the difference between corporate fiscal responsibilities and balancing that with customer service.I won't project what I think about your perspectives on that.

I think that the short sighted approach to finance is what hurts broadcasting, communications and transportation for examples.You see it as "short-sighted" and yet the people to whom the folks running companies own their diligence to consider it "far-sighted". You and they have a difference of opinion, and they win, because it is their company (I'm talking about the owners, here, not the managers) and they make the rules. You also used the word "hurt" but remember, to them, "hurt" only means loss of long-term shareholder value as compared to what shareholder value could be achieved via other strategies. So to even begin to prove your point you'd have to show that they absolutely, positively will make more money serving your personal preferences as opposed to applying the experience, expertise and professionalism available to them within the industry to determine the strategies that actually WILL achieve the best long-term shareholder value that is available under the current environmental circumstances.

To few people have too much of their own personal interest at stake to make a long term fiscal decision.This is your assumption. I see no reason to believe you are even close to correct, as it pertains to the issues discussed in this thread, in general. You can point to only anecdotal examples of self-interest, but you cannot provide evidence of an industry-wide dereliction of duty due shareholders.

Although I won't argue that these are some of the places people are going, you haven't addressed WHY they are going.New options are always attractive. If people have a choice of three, getting more than 33% means you're above average. If people have a choice of ten, the expectations necessarily change. While some folks can still get more than 33%, and sometimes the market itself can be enlarged, it isn't usual for competition to actually result in a broader split of the available marketplace so that each competitor now gets a smaller piece of the pie. That's actually the baseline case.

TV has proven again and again that they can compete against those adversaries when the product is good enough.No they haven't. And before television, there was radio, and before radio there was reading, and in each of those cases, the new competitors for sedentary leisure time has not only split the market, but generally overwhelmed the market. It is to television's credit that (so far) the alternatives haven't themselves become the top sedentary leisure time activity. Someday, I hope, a new sedentary leisure time activity does knock television from the top spot. I'd hate to think that we humans ever reach a pinnacle that we cannot subsequently exceed.

No, they are not in a better position. I've stated one of the reasons above.And very unconvincingly. They are in a better position to make decisions that some quasi-anonymous viewer posting on a discussion board. I think anyone can see the rationality of that statement, while your counter-assertion is without benefit of being obvious and without benefit of evidence to support it in the general case. (Again, highlighted to ensure that you don't miss that point.)

The execs are not part of the culture they are serving is another.Neither is practically anyone, because there is no single culture which television serves.

I DO understand the financial need to do so to a certain degree. However, I think it is a losing spiral.It may be, but your alternatives are as likely as not to be worse. You've provided no basis on which to believe that your assertions will make things better for the networks.

I'll end on this note instead of continueing to argue each minutia. We completley disagree on what feduciary responsibility is to the stock holder. The comments about me having to prove that my techniques would be more profitable are moot. However, I can point to the existing strategy and see that it is failing. I can also look at the rise of the Pay Channel series in contrast to the inability of TV to continue what it used to dominate. I assure you it isn't just F-Bombs and Boobs that make those shows enjoyable to watch (ok, maybe the boobs).

Every single one of your arguments, in my opinion, is why TV is struggling. The bottom line can be met while still providing an enjoyable entertainment experience to the viewer. TV is entertainment. The more NOT entertaining it becomes, the less people will watch. TV is escapism. The more you try to intrude on that escape, the less people will watch. The more you try to dumb it down, the smaller the audience will be or the quicker the audience will defect.

That's how I see it. YMMV

Interesting that there is no response to the post that shows the utter hypocrisy of bicker1's argument. Must not fit any of the canned cableco management training responses available.

Some of us actually have lives outside of these forums. :rolleyes:

I don't catch every message. Which one must you have a reply from me to?

Some of us actually have lives outside of these forums. :rolleyes:

You're here plenty. You just need to spend more time reading and developing your independent thought processes and less time copying & pasting generic talking points from your manifesto.

I don't catch every message. Which one must you have a reply from me to?

Post # 157.

It was asking the same question that was posed in the last paragraph of #151 that you responded to with your trademark creative quoting process that attempts to change what was posted so it fits your argument.

And despite those qualifications, you claim all those network execs are wrong and you and the TNT execs are right?No, I'm claiming that each of them are making the best decisions for their own companies.

You're either promoting your own personal preference for the non-linear stretch, My personal preference is for everything to be released on HD-DVD or BlueRay (or just regular DVD even), before it appears on any cable or broadcast network, with no commercials whatsoever, no bugs, no nothing except the program. And I get to choose with the Aspect button on my DVD player remote what to do with the picture. That is my utterly meaningless (to this discussion) personal preference.

or your own personal opinion that TNT execs are more qualified to make the call than all other network execs.No, my only point is that they're more qualified to make the call for their network then a poster on this forum is. Note that none of the execs of the other networks are saying about TNT what you're saying about TNT.

No, my only point is that they're more qualified to make the call for their network then you are. Note that none of the execs of the other networks are saying about TNT what you're saying about TNT.

So you believe that the non-linear stretch is best for TNT - but not for all the other networks? That's ridiculous. What makes the TNT business model unique from all the others?

And please no broken record response about the TNT execs having the right to determine how they go to market. Nobody disagrees with this. We are discussing the wisdom of their decision. You can't reconcile what they are doing versus all the other professionals you hold in such high regard unless there is something unique about TNT.

And the lack of comment from all these other executives about TNT is a silly way to try and support your contention. Why would they comment on TNT's actions? Their viewpoint on the issue is readily apparent based on their actions at their respective networks.

No, my only point is that they're more qualified to make the call for their network than a poster on this forum is. Note that none of the execs of the other networks are saying about TNT what you're saying about TNT.So you believe that the non-linear stretch is best for TNT - but not for all the other networks?No, my only point is that they're more qualified to make the call for their network than a poster on this forum is. That was my entire point. It didn't include anything else. Please stop putting works in my mouth (fingers, whatever).

And please no broken record response about the TNT execs having the right to determine how they go to market. Nobody disagrees with this.Then stop objecting when I raise that as my point. I'm more than happy to argue with you about what I do say, but I will NOT argue with you about something I didn't say.

We are discussing the wisdom of their decision.And my point is that no one here has demonstrated qualifications for evaluating the wisdom of their decision better than they are. I would prefer people stop distorting their personal preferences into something more than what they are. What is wrong with just saying, "I don't like what TNT does." What need are you fulfilling by making the baseless leap from there to "TNT doesn't know its business" as well as you do, which is, essentially, what you're trying to convince people by what you're posting in this thread.

Their viewpoint on the issue is readily apparent based on their actions at their respective networks.Another baseless leap. You don't know that, yet you're asserting it as if you do.

What need are you fulfilling by making the baseless leap from there to "TNT doesn't know its business" as well as you do, which is, essentially, what you're trying to convince people by what you're posting in this thread.

No, I'm saying TNT does not know better than all the other network executives with far more qualifications and experience. You disagreed.

You are handicapped by the necessity to always assume that all executives always make the correct decision. But your argument breaks down whenever the big picture includes other qualified executives and they have opposing views.

If your only point is truly that the executives have the right to make the call - then there is no disagreement. Please stop posting the same ridiculous comments in every thread that involves a company and their actions. We all know that company executives have the power to do whatever they want with their network. AVS is here so we can discuss what we like, or don't like - and perhaps to impact change - and sometimes even point out mistakes being made. We don't need someone spamming every thread with nonsense suggesting that we should just accept anything that happens because the decisions are made by more qualified individuals than ourselves.

I think "bicker" is more than just a screen name... :D :D :D

I think "bicker" is more than just a screen name... :D :D :DLol! Seems to be a lifestyle choice.
Anyway, it looks like this thread has become one long circular argument/bickering with no new ground being covered. Is anyone really following the content anymore or has it become a sideshow?
Fwiw, I'm on CPanther's side. TNT-HD sucks and I would like the freedom of choice to pillar-box or stretch 4:3 picture content on my TV using my TV's zoom settings. TNT-HD's forced use of stretching (and the endless pop-ups, etc) has alienated me to the point that I rarely watch TNT-HD. If TBD-HD do the same stuff it will suffer the same fate.
Now, if we're not going to cover any new ground, and all thats going to happen are more endless circular arguments between bicker and CP, then perhaps its time the mods put this thread out of its misery.
Sorry, just my 2c.

No, I'm saying TNT does not know better than all the other network executives with far more qualifications and experience. You disagreed.No I didn't. Read what I wrote again, and please don't inject your own preference for what would be easier to argue against. My point, again, is that they're more qualified to make the call for their network than a poster on this forum is.

I really cannot believe that you're arguing with me about what my point is. :rolleyes: I wrote it. I know what my point is.

You are handicapped by the necessity to always assume that all executives always make the correct decision.No. I'm empowered by the willingness to allow for the fact that there doesn't have to be blame for everything; by the being able to accept that not everything is knowable just because we want to have a cut-and-dried adjudication of the issue in a forum; and by the assurance that I'm not putting my personal preference above someone else's professional discretion.

But your argument breaks down whenever the big picture includes other qualified executives and they have opposing views.Yet, it doesn't. Reasonable people disagree, without the need to conclude that the other person is making the wrong decision. And indeed, there are other executives at competing companies making some of the same decisions TNT is. So that totally blows apart that part of your argument.

If your only point is truly that the executives have the right to make the call - then there is no disagreement.You could have fooled me.

Please stop posting the same ridiculous comments in every thread that involves a company and their actions.Please stop posting objections to my saying so. Or better yet, please post your personal preferences as personal preferences instead of judgments about the executives' decisions.

We all know that company executives have the power to do whatever they want with their network.This isn't about power.

AVS is here so we can discuss what we like, or don't like - and perhaps to impact change - and sometimes even point out mistakes being made.AVS is here so people can get a realistic view of what they will encounter. If AVS is really intent on not having a balanced view, please update the posting guidelines to say so, and I will gladly comply.

In a capitalistic society the majority rules. So, the majority in this thread don't want to listen to Bicker's babbling and endless rhetoric. The majority of posts here and on other forums don't approve of what TNT is doing with their popups, banners and animations during programs. Let's inundate TNT with our comments. And, btw, the ignore button works wonderfully.

In a capitalistic society the majority rules. So, the majority in this thread don't want to listen to Bicker's babbling and endless rhetoric. The majority of posts here and on other forums don't approve of what TNT is doing with their popups, banners and animations during programs. Let's inundate TNT with our comments. And, btw, the ignore button works wonderfully.

1) Thanks to bicker1 I don't feel so bad about my wordier-than-thou posts anymore. :p

2) I don't like what TNT does either with all that nonsense... ;)

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but this link (http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/6843822) indicates that TBS will share some of the MLB playoffs with TNT.

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but this link (http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/6843822) indicates that TBS will share some of the MLB playoffs with TNT.


But, this link (http://www.cablemediasales.com/nets/1a_xtraFiles/tbs_4320.pdf) doesn't mention TNT.

Here in Baltimore we have most of the new HD launches that have occurred this year.

Current exceptions are Food and of course the HD Nets. I would expect Food sooner than later at least based on the trend of additions that seem to follow shortly after deals get done.

Channels just launched or about to launch nationally include History and now TBS.

Since bandwidth is finite, what would you prefer to see your provider do;

Launch TBS for what appears to be 3 weeks of baseball games knowing they can't drop it thereafter or, use that bandwidth for a Food, History or other type service.

It seems there are more threads about channels like TNT and A&E being wastes of bandwidth than there are threads about these channels (where available) being valued. While I don't agree with many of those views, I do wonder how good a TBS HD may be from a value point in the near term, post baseball.

The easy short answer is we want all the channels. I am looking for a more thoughtful answer along the lines of my question and the limitations it imposes, at least for those so inclined.

GoIrish

If you want the biggest bang for your HD buck, I'd be pushing for CNN and The Weather Channel. Both will have new content every day, and should launch with 60-70% of their programming in HD. TWC doesn't use much archive footage to begin with, and I think TWC has announced plans to be 100% HD by mid-2008. Sure, CNN runs a lot more archive footage that won't be HD, but I think CNN's effort to push HD outside the studio is going to be a lot stronger than NBC Nightly News and most local news operations that we've witnessed. For instance, I think everything that I've watched of late on Pipeline/CNN.com has been widescreen. Certainly, CNN has been planning for HD for a while, and I think/hope that it's going to show when they finally go live.

I know as viewer of TNT-HD that I have little to no expectations from TBS HD. TNT is barely worthy of being an HD channel. If not for its rather large helping of sports and 15 years of HD Law and Order, it would be totally useless to me. And ultimately TBS' original programming offerings are more meager than TNT. This is to say nothing of the stretch-o-vision that makes a majority of TNT's non-HD programming (especially movies) totally unwatchable.

If you want the biggest bang for your HD buck, I'd be pushing for CNN and The Weather Channel. Both will have new content every day, and should launch with 60-70% of their programming in HD.

The Weather Channel will be 100% upconverted SD until next year.

For instance, I think everything that I've watched of late on Pipeline/CNN.com has been widescreen.
It's all stretched.

does anyone know if this will be broadcast in clear QAM for TWC NYC?

does anyone know if this will be broadcast in clear QAM for TWC NYC?

The question you need to ask first is does anyone know if its going to be broadcast on TWC AT ALL.....

The Weather Channel will be 100% upconverted SD until next year.

True, but TBS will be baseball, some horrible comedy shows, and the rest upconverted SD. The Weather Channel has stated plans to go all HD by mid-2008. Needless to say, TWC will probably be all HD years (maybe a decade) before TBS.

True, but TBS will be baseball, some horrible comedy shows, and the rest upconverted SD. The Weather Channel has stated plans to go all HD by mid-2008. Needless to say, TWC will probably be all HD years (maybe a decade) before TBS.

But TWC will have NO HD at launch.

But TWC will have NO HD at launch.


Thats not necessarily true....

But TWC will have NO HD at launch.

So you'd rather have some baseball playoffs in HD now and nothing else for some time or tons of new HD every day come January?

I guess my point is I'm patient enough to wait, and given the incredibly slow process of adding HD at nearly every provider but DirecTV, I'd rather put my money on an investment that's going to pay off rather than a mostly pointless one. TBS HD is a pointless investment, plain and simple.

If you're looking for a payoff HD-wise, Weather is going to deliver. Given TNT's reputation around here, TBS is only going to bring you frustration after frustration.

So let me pose a hypothetical. Would you rather have TBS HD at launch and TWC sometime in the fall of 2008 at the earliest or TWC at launch and TBS HD sometime in the fall of 2008 at the earliest. The choice is pretty easy for me, but I don't particularly care about baseball playoffs (and even then, TBS is only going to be carrying the division series and one CS) since the Nats won't be within a thousand miles of getting into them (and whatever I do watch will be done almost surely in a sports bar anyway).

If you need instant gratification, then I guess TBS is the choice, but it's not going to be a satisfying one, I can guarantee you that.

Thats not necessarily true....

The Weather Channel HD will launch with DirecTV in September 2007. However, it won’t be true HD at first. Wilson said the direct-broadcast satellite operator will upconvert the standard-definition feed until the network’s HD studio comes online.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=840505

So you'd rather have some baseball playoffs in HD now and nothing else for some time or tons of new HD every day come January?

I guess my point is I'm patient enough to wait, and given the incredibly slow process of adding HD at nearly every provider but DirecTV, I'd rather put my money on an investment that's going to pay off rather than a mostly pointless one. TBS HD is a pointless investment, plain and simple.

If you're looking for a payoff HD-wise, Weather is going to deliver. Given TNT's reputation around here, TBS is only going to bring you frustration after frustration.

So let me pose a hypothetical. Would you rather have TBS HD at launch and TWC sometime in the fall of 2008 at the earliest or TWC at launch and TBS HD sometime in the fall of 2008 at the earliest. The choice is pretty easy for me, but I don't particularly care about baseball playoffs (and even then, TBS is only going to be carrying the division series and one CS) since the Nats won't be within a thousand miles of getting into them (and whatever I do watch will be done almost surely in a sports bar anyway).

If you need instant gratification, then I guess TBS is the choice, but it's not going to be a satisfying one, I can guarantee you that.

My point was that you said TWC "should launch with 60-70% of their programming in HD." Not true.

One day left are they doing any promotions about their new hd programming?

I'm sure that TWC will have some HD commericals from time to time. ;)

It's 9/1

Anyone have it?

It's 9/1

Anyone have it?

Probably not. It's a holiday weekend. I wouldn't expect any channels to appear until at least Tuesday on any system.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=840505

The Weather Channel has started airing commercials for two new TV shows with a tag saying something along the lines of "In High Definition, Where Available."

These two shows start October 1st, so it will be interesting to see if they're broadcasted in HD...

~Alan

Well, it's September 1st and TBS-HD ain't here on Comcast, naturally.

I'm giving them 32 days. I EXPECT to see game 1 of an ALDS series IN HD ,most likely on channel 831!

I don't see TBS HD on Cox either. I've been watching just about every Yankee game in HD this year, I don't want to have to watch them in standard def when it counts the most! (Of course, I won't have to worry about it if they miss the playoffs.)

What is TBS's commitment to HD after 3 weeks of baseball ?

GoIrish
(even after the pathetic loss to GT)

I bet Charter adds this channel..Sometime around 2010 :)

I get TBS OTA here in Atlanta and right now they are airing a local Braves game in HD. I had thought they quit airing local games in HD this year so maybe they made the switch. Later today, Bad Boys, Guess Who and Hitch will be on TV. Hopefully they will be in HD too. I'll post back.....

I get TBS OTA here in Atlanta and right now they are airing a local Braves game in HD. I had thought they quit airing local games in HD this year so maybe they made the switch. Later today, Bad Boys, Guess Who and Hitch will be on TV. Hopefully they will be in HD too. I'll post back.....

You have WTBS-HD.... not the same TBS... (it has simulcasted mostly TBS content for a long time..... but will stop for good October 1st)

WTBS will change to WPCH on 10/1.... and you will have to start getting the cable TBS the rest of the country sees.

You should of had that in HD for a while anyways... even though the only available content was Braves games....

It would be interesting if you get the TBS-HD content there..... since it's only going to last a month.... and you'll have to get a separate TBS-HD like the rest of us on 10/1

Watching the braves game on TBS HD. And guess what? Its in HD!!!

Charter in Athens, GA.

Watching the braves game on TBS HD. And guess what? Its in HD!!!

Charter in Athens, GA.

See above.... so I don't start sounding like a broken record

:confused:

my program guide lists the channel as TBS HD, while the other locals are listed a wxiahd, wagahd, wupahd... etc...

Although TBS has broadcast home braves games in HD in seasons past, this year they stated they would not be providing it, and havent until today. They claim it was because of contracts expiring. Regardless, whether the Atlanta OTA TBS is the national feed or not, its still nice to see HD back on the channel. As others have stated will be curious if movies tonight are another test run for the local channel.

I read around the net that TBS-HD is working hard to be up before the playoffs begin. If they run into technical difficulties, they'll run the playoffs on TNT-HD.

10 more days till it's live on E*, I wonder is anyother Tuner channels will join it on the 15th. History HD also this week

About Weather Channel HD, well there has been some advertising here and there including items like Weather Channel HD and E* logos on the items like a water bottles and stress balls.

I read around the net that TBS-HD is working hard to be up before the playoffs begin. If they run into technical difficulties, they'll run the playoffs on TNT-HD.

This Charter sub hopes they run into permanent difficulties if thats the case :)

Sounds like a fairy tale to me though..

I find it a bit strange that TBS is going HD before F/X and USA, both of which are networks from similarly strong companies, and both of which could present substantially stronger HD offerings.


Absolutely the best post of the week. I was thinking the same thing. It is criminal that FX is not HD.:(

It is criminal that FX is not HD.:(
FX is going to be HD very soon.

I read around the net that TBS-HD is working hard to be up before the playoffs begin. If they run into technical difficulties, they'll run the playoffs on TNT-HD.

I really hope that you're right. That would be great news. Contrary to what I've read around here, I've always found TNT's basketball coverage to be very good and the PQ excellent. I'm sure that their baseball coverage would be satisfactory to my needs as well.

Absolutely the best post of the week. I was thinking the same thing. It is criminal that FX is not HD.:(
FX is coming, but I think TBS is coming first simply for upcoming sports coverage.

I'd expect FX before the next series starts up for this season since we're already a good amount through the current shows for the season. Shows like Rescue Me are nearly done for the year, so there's no real hurry to rush to get the HD channel going. However, if you have an upcoming sports contract, that's some incentive to move quickly before it starts.

I'd expect FX before the next series starts up for this season since we're already a good amount through the current shows for the season.
That would be October 23rd, when Nip/Tuck starts. I'm sure they'll have the HD channel up by then.

That would be October 23rd, when Nip/Tuck starts. I'm sure they'll have the HD channel up by then.

Possibly, but I'd expect little else to be true HD at that point. For instance, movies they show on that channel will undoubtedly be shown upconverted to start.

Possibly, but I'd expect little else to be true HD at that point. For instance, movies they show on that channel will undoubtedly be shown upconverted to start.
Why?

I've watched it for the last hour or so and the programming and commericals all suffer from Turner's patented Stretch-O-Vision(tm). What a waste. I think TBS might give TNT a run for its money as the worst HD channel.

I've watched it for the last hour or so and the programming and commericals all suffer from Turner's patented Stretch-O-Vision(tm). What a waste. I think TBS might give TNT a run for its money as the worst HD channel.

Where are you getting TBS HD ?

Where are you getting TBS HD ?

The Atlanta area probably. They get everything...

Where are you getting TBS HD ?

Atlanta area has WTBS-HD.... which is no longer going to be related to TBS on 10/1.... (broken record continues)

Where are you getting TBS HD ?

Time Warner Cable

Atlanta area has WTBS-HD.... which is no longer going to be related to TBS on 10/1.... (broken record continues)

Is this like a local channel ?

I just want to know whether TBS HD is on or not, for the channel chart.

Time Warner Cable

How about a region?

I've watched it for the last hour or so and the programming and commericals all suffer from Turner's patented Stretch-O-Vision(tm). What a waste. I think TBS might give TNT a run for its money as the worst HD channel.
Stop the whining! If you don't like it don't watch it! My family watches TNT and TBS and enjoy the programming. In fact my computer savy son asked why the other channels don't stretch their picture to fill the screen. Seems that kids and most of America like seeing a picture fill the screen regardless of its original aspect ratio. Just go to any sports bar... I rest my case....

Seems that kids and most of America like seeing a picture fill the screen regardless of its original aspect ratio.
That doesn't make it right.
Just go to any sports bar...
Yes, that's exactly where I would go for an educated opinion on TV aspect ratios.

Stop the whining! If you don't like it don't watch it! My family watches TNT and TBS and enjoy the programming. In fact my computer savy son asked why the other channels don't stretch their picture to fill the screen. Seems that kids and most of America like seeing a picture fill the screen regardless of its original aspect ratio. Just go to any sports bar... I rest my case....

Incredible. :rolleyes:

Stop the whining! If you don't like it don't watch it! My family watches TNT and TBS and enjoy the programming. In fact my computer savy son asked why the other channels don't stretch their picture to fill the screen. Seems that kids and most of America like seeing a picture fill the screen regardless of its original aspect ratio. Just go to any sports bar... I rest my case....

Incredible. Someone registered to post this !

Anyway, I don't know about your "computer savvy" kid, but I don't particularly like watching fat girls.

Anyway, I don't know about your "computer savvy" kid, but I don't particularly like watching fat girls.
When we got our first HDTV, I sat my family down and showed them stretch mode. I then showed them pillar box mode, and explained that this is how it will be. I've taught them well, they can't stand seeing anything in stretch mode now. :)

Stop the whining! If you don't like it don't watch it! My family watches TNT and TBS and enjoy the programming. In fact my computer savy son asked why the other channels don't stretch their picture to fill the screen. Seems that kids and most of America like seeing a picture fill the screen regardless of its original aspect ratio. Just go to any sports bar... I rest my case....


We are so sorry...if the sports bars are stretching the content then we must be wrong. Again, so sorry!

We are so sorry...if the sports bars are stretching the content then we must be wrong. Again, so sorry!

Absolutely. I remember a few years ago in a sports bar in St Louis, the convergence was so off, we could literally see 3 imaged. I came home and promptly readjusted the convergence on my CRT projector to mirror that experience ... ;)

Yet your ridicule of his perspective doesn't negate the fact that he and many many others have that perspective, and that so many of them do that that trumps the more purist perspectives traditionally favored on the AVS Forum.

Yet your ridicule of his perspective doesn't negate the fact that he and many many others have that perspective
It also doesn't make that perspective any less wrong.

Yet your ridicule of his perspective doesn't negate the fact that he and many many others have that perspective, and that so many of them do that that trumps the more purist perspectives traditionally favored on the AVS Forum.

Amen to that. I like most of you strongly prefer OAR and definately don't like stretch-o-vision; however, I realize that we are in the minority. My parents or siblings hate black bars. My wife is pretty indifferent. Almost every hotel I've stayed at that has a tv in the lobby has the image stretched. The same is true with sports bars like the previous poster said. I'm amazed that some of you don't understand why networks choose to do this. If they show OAR, they will get way more complaints from black bar haters than they will if they show stretch-o-vision. It's simple from a business perspective.

Yet your ridicule of his perspective doesn't negate the fact that he and many many others have that perspective, and that so many of them do that that trumps the more purist perspectives traditionally favored on the AVS Forum.Trumps? Hardly, it just means they are unfamiliar with or do not understand the concept.

You can not really believe anyone who understood the concept would prefer a geometrically distorted image, just to fill a screen. It's quite telling the example above uses children to try and make the point.

Further, what makes you think a purist point of view is flawed? Perhaps your views would be better accepted in a more mainstream, non-AV enthusiasts forum.

If they show OAR, they will get way more complaints from black bar haters than they will if they show stretch-o-vision. It's simple from a business perspective.
If it's so simple, then how come every single network uses OAR aside from the ones Turner owns?

I'm amazed that some of you don't understand why networks choose to do this.Networks? What networks? Other than TNT, what others are there that stretch 4:3 content to fill a 16:9 screen?

In fact my computer savy son asked why the other channels don't stretch their picture to fill the screen.

But he's not savvy enough to find the Picture Stretch button on the remote?

Networks? What networks? Other than TNT, what others are there that stretch 4:3 content to fill a 16:9 screen?

Hint: I know the answer to this question.

Hint: I know the answer to this question.
It's an easy one: TBS.

Networks? What networks? Other than TNT, what others are there that stretch 4:3 content to fill a 16:9 screen?

Lifetime Movie Network HD. But they appear to use simple linear stretch-o-vision, rather than the unique TNT-HD stretch-o-vision.

Yet your ridicule of his perspective doesn't negate the fact that he and many many others have that perspective, and that so many of them do that that trumps the more purist perspectives traditionally favored on the AVS Forum.

These are the same guys who would have none of that new fangled HD - and were happy with SD.

AVS leads - not follows. We do have the "power" to be let people know what we think and lobby them to change.

If civilization progressed as per the preference of the uninformed, we would all still be living in caves.

Lifetime Movie Network HD.
At least it's a channel I know I'll never watch!

If it's so simple, then how come every single network uses OAR aside from the ones Turner owns?

Unless they have changed their ways from 6 months ago when I last had it, HBO HD crops 2.35 material down to 16:9. I'm not familar with the other premiums and what they do to 2.35 material. TNT HD is the only one I've seen do stretch-o-vision but they aren't the only ones that try to get rid of black bars.

Look I'm with you guys, in that I truly appreciate OAR. I don't even watch movies on TNT HD for this reason. Why someone gets a high definition tv to watch a distorted image is strange to me.:confused: I'm just saying I am familiar with the hatred some mainstream viewers have for black bars and why networks sometime alter the image to get rid of the black bars. Some of this may be rooted on the burn-in problems some early plasmas had (don't know this, just speculating). I hear the new ones are hard to burn in, but I bought a DLP and a LCD just because I like watching OAR and didn't want to have any worries.

Time Warner Cable


where are you located?

Networks? What networks? Other than TNT, what others are there that stretch 4:3 content to fill a 16:9 screen?

The baltimore local NBC stretches all SD programming to fill a 14:9 screen. So there are tiny black bars on the sides. I've called them about it and they say a majority of their viewers prefer it that way. :confused::eek::confused:

Amen to that. I like most of you strongly prefer OAR and definately don't like stretch-o-vision; however, I realize that we are in the minority. My parents or siblings hate black bars. My wife is pretty indifferent. Almost every hotel I've stayed at that has a tv in the lobby has the image stretched. The same is true with sports bars like the previous poster said. I'm amazed that some of you don't understand why networks choose to do this. If they show OAR, they will get way more complaints from black bar haters than they will if they show stretch-o-vision. It's simple from a business perspective.

There's a very simple solution. Show it with pillar bars and let the viewer change the format using the button on their satellite remote. The result is a much less distorted picture that fills the screen. The same could apply to sports bars and hotel lobbies.

There's a very simple solution. Show it with pillar bars and let the viewer change the format using the button on their satellite remote.
There are a lot of receivers out there that can't manipulate the aspect ratio of HD content. DirecTV's receivers are among them.

That's too bad...sounds like they failed to incorporate a good feature in the design of their receivers.