I have a combo 2-channel/HT system in my basement. The floor is cement (covered by commercial carpet). It is very uneven, so leveling my Thorens TC-166 MkII (all stock w/ Ortofon Super OM-10 pickup) is a serious challenge. I need to compensate for an inch or more of tilt my rack has as a result of the uneven floor. I have been using stacked coins wrapped with tape, but I was hoping someone would have a more elegant, but still inexpensive, solution for this issue. Please post any ideas you might have. Thanks!

does your rack of spiked feet? You may want to retrofit it so you can spike it through the carpet on hopefully a level floor. If your floor is that uneven, I would try to build a short adjustable stand for the rack to sit on. I would use three spiked feet as it will be easier to level

Thanks EC, but I am not very handy. I was looking for something like aftermarket feet with a wide range of adjustment. I guess eventually I will have to dust off my wallet and get a carpenter in there.

Well, if the floor is uneven, then the carpet it sits on is likewise uneven. If you can pull the carpet up in that general area, then you can buy a commercial product, probably available at HD or Lowes, that's a leveling compound. It's some sort of a liquid that after a while, hardens. Since water seeks it's own level, it'll be deeper in the lower areas and shallower in the higher areas. Might work out for you.

probably not the answer you are looking for, but being a "poor" college student, I would probably just use a bunch shims (cardboard from boxes). If you want something more solid, if you have threading at the base of whatever your turn table is on, you can probably get the same thread bolts at your local hardware store and use that to level the leg.

I have three spikes on my turntable. It really makes leveling much easier. So, if you're gonna go the quarters route, I suggest you use only three feet. Leave the two front ones on, and get a new one or reattach one of the existing to the rear center of the base (on the turntable).

I would probably build a small level base for the rack to sit on but since you said you don't want to go that route why not shim your rack up so it's fairly level then just "fine tune" the leveling of the turntable.

My un-conventional answer is it just doesn't matter. As long as you balance the tonearm/cartridge, set the tracking force and anti-skate while it is on that odd angle. More important to exact level is that the surface it rests on is rock solid, not springy or compromised by some wiggly leveling shim. The cement floor directly (no rack or rug) would be ideal for that if you could live with it on the ground like that. The original AR, which invented that floating sub-chasis design I'm pretty sure yours has as well, could do a most impressive trick when on a cement floor: direct hammer blows downward on the top plinth would not make the needle skip and were barely audible! They bragged about this in their c. 1964 ads and yes, I've seen it done:
http://www.vinylnirvana.com/history/ar_brochure_1.jpg

My un-conventional answer is it just doesn't matter. As long as you balance the tonearm/cartridge, set the tracking force and anti-skate while it is on that odd angle. More important to exact level is that the surface it rests on is rock solid, not springy or compromised by some wiggly leveling shim. The cement floor directly (no rack or rug) would be ideal for that if you could live with it on the ground like that. The original AR, which invented that floating sub-chasis design I'm pretty sure yours has as well, could do a most impressive trick when on a cement floor: direct hammer blows downward on the top plinth would not make the needle skip and were barely audible! They bragged about this in their c. 1964 ads and yes, I've seen it done:
http://www.vinylnirvana.com/history/ar_brochure_1.jpg
Uh, it does matter. Everything about a turntable is due to the geometry and it is all based on the premise that it is first levelled. If it is unlevel the nedle is pulled unevenly in the groove and every moving point on the table is unevenly mass loaded. Gravity will load the needle itself, the bearings in the arm due to the weight of the arm, the bearing in the platter and will unevenly load the suspension springs. This is about the worst turntable advice I've ever seen.

And by the way, those old AR tables with a newer arm still sound just as good, no better than a new Rega :)

Having set up and owned several turntables, I agree with HARRYPT but would suggest utilizing Shure's stylus force gauge model SFG-2 which can be purchased from J&R Music for under $20. My experience reflects that the tone arm gauge is ok but not optimal. The antiskating gauge should be adjusted according to the turntable's instructions.
Richard

Like I said, my answer will be considered unconventional, but to clarify what I meant; I think its a matter of degrees (pun intended :) ). If your shelf is tilting to one side by 5-45 degrees :eek: then I too would worry about uneven wear on the bearings and pivots etc, but if you can't even visually see that it is tilting, you only know from a bubble level that it is (say, 5 degrees or less), then I think the pertinent factor is that the tonearm calibration (balancing, subsequent tracking force application, and anti-skating force) must be set while in this slightly "tilted" position. And of course re-calibration is a must if later then moved to any other shelf.

To my mind, worrying about uneven bearing and pivot wear (due to a tilt of under 5 degrees) would be akin to worrying if placing the axis of your turntable's magnetic cartridge in alignment with the earth's north-south magnetic field, vs. perpendicularly to it (east-west), would have an adverse effect on its output. After all, the earth's magnetic field has the power to spin around the relatively big, heavy needle of a pocket compass, why wouldn't it have an effect on the weak magnetic field generated by the tiny, moving iron/magnet/coil inside your cartridge?

Of course ideally, you should do your initial calibration on a level shelf, because that way as long as you only move the turntable to other level shelves, the calibration is good to go! This is where the whole "leveling is critical" mythology comes from! But when faced with a slightly unlevel shelf and no sturdy way to level it......

For those of you who disagree with me, I have two questions for you:

A) Does failure to critically leveling the turntable merely compromise performance? or actually (over time) break the turntable?

B) If it is so critically important, why do many turntables not come with a bubble level? Would it really cost that much more, considering they buy them in bulk, to throw one in for free with the purchase, since it's "so important"?

Oh, just to confuse all of you even more, I'm sure if I looked on the web I'd find thousands of sites that contradict my advice and none to support it. :eek: I guess I'm a "don't-believe-everything-you-read" kinda guy.

You can set up a turntable so that it plays(I saw one playing upside down at a hi show.) or set it up so that it plays optimally. For an optimal setup and playback the tracking force and antiskating force has to be set properly as well as the leveling with a bubble leveler(Looking at a turntable is not good enough.). The turntables geometrics and lubrication require a level setup. Many manufacturers cut cost by not including a bubble leveler or antiskating but I would not use that as a basis for its necessity.
Richard

To my mind, worrying about uneven bearing and pivot wear (due to a tilt of under 5 degrees) would be akin to worrying if placing the axis of your turntable's magnetic cartridge in alignment with the earth's north-south magnetic field, vs. perpendicularly to it (east-west), would have an adverse effect on its output.First, I said nothing about adverse wear, I said it will effect the sound.

Of course ideally, you should do your initial calibration on a level shelf, because that way as long as you only move the turntable to other level shelves, the calibration is good to go! This is where the whole "leveling is critical" mythology comes from! But when faced with a slightly unlevel shelf and no sturdy way to level it.......If I absolutely could not get a shelf level (I don't see why this would be the case) I would setup the table on the unlevel surface, not start with a level one then move the table. Most setup cannot compensate but one big one can, anti-skate could help to adjust for an east/west tilt.

A) Does failure to critically leveling the turntable merely compromise performance? or actually (over time) break the turntable?

B) If it is so critically important, why do many turntables not come with a bubble level? Would it really cost that much more, considering they buy them in bulk, to throw one in for free with the purchase, since it's "so important"?

A) I said before it compromises performance, not break the table. However, very expensive high end tables have extremely high tech bearings made to very tight tolerances and I have heard of guys with huge record collections and old tables wearing out a bearing. It seems obvious that if the table were not level, that bearing would wear out faster and unevenly.

B) Thats a good question.

I understand your viewpoint and it is common, but it is wrong. It is this sort of thinking that has helped the CD to make the record almost extinct. The turntable requires more effort than most people want to spend to make records sound good while CD's require little setup and no anal retentive tweaking. Could you play a record and get sound and no skipping from a table that is not quite level? Probably, but you are not getting the best sound out of it.

Remember the voltages coming from a phono cartridge are tiny. It goes through a huge amount of amplification before getting to your speakers. Minute differences will be amplified greatly and may be heard.

First, I said nothing about adverse wear, I said it will effect the sound.

Oops, my mistake , I see it is adverse sound quality that you are worried about. Just out of curiosity, I would assume that rather than one of the traditional (read: measurable) sound aspects like speed error, wow, flutter, rumble, hum, or noise, it would be in one of those more "elusive" aspects like "sound stage depth" or "imaging localization" that you mean, right? ;)

Oops, my mistake , I see it is adverse sound quality that you are worried about. Just out of curiosity, I would assume that rather than one of the traditional (read: measurable) sound aspects like speed error, wow, flutter, rumble, hum, or noise, it would be in one of those more "elusive" aspects like "sound stage depth" or "imaging localization" that you mean, right? ;)
If your table is not level, the arm leans one direction and puts more force on one side of the needle than the other thus 1. wearing out one channel of the record more than the other and 2. making one channel louder than the other, and that is measurable.

Wow and flutter is easily measurable, it is easy to measure the speed stability of the platter and if the platter is not level, it is likelly to vary a bit as it spins.

Rumble and hum, if not from record surface noise, are typically from either the motor, motor bearings or platter bearings. If these are not level, they do not seat properly, wear more on one side and create more noise. Noise floor is easily measurable.

Not sure I get your point.

Moderators please delete.

If your table is not level, the arm leans one direction and puts more force on one side of the needle than the other thus 1. wearing out one channel of the record more than the other and 2. making one channel louder than the other, and that is measurable.
Although, yes, a fairly close amount of pressure against both sides of the groove is a good thing to reduce both needle wear and groove wear, #1 and #2 above are both patently un-true:

A) The inner and outer walls of the record groove do not represent the left and right channels of sound, as you imply.

B) The amount of pressure against the groove walls in no way dictates the volume level of anything.

To be more specific, since the 1950's the stereo sound on an LP has used the Westrex system, mostly for compatibility to older monophonic recordings, where the two channels of sound are recorded by the combined motion of both sides of the grooves in unison to move the needle diagonally up/down to the left for one channel and at 90 degrees away, diagonally up/down and to the right for the other channel. The motion is shaped like the letter "V". A purely left to right modulation (wiggle) with no vertical component represents L+R or a mono sound so older mono records, indeed recorded with no up/down motion, are compatible with a stereo Westrex design.

The size of the wiggles represents the volume level of the sound, nothing else.

The amount of pressure the needle exerts against the walls of the grooves is important, but has nothing to do with volume levels. Too much pressure and you deflect the cantilever of the cartridge to an improper angle and risk bottoming out the cartridge on a warp, too little pressure and the needle has trouble sticking to the walls of the grooves during the loud (and especially bass heavy) passages and gets bashed about between the two walls of the groove causing audible distortion and damages the groove irreparably [most people are surprised to learn that too little needle pressure is actually worse for the record than too much, but it's true].

Man , I thought this thread was about helping the guy out in leveling his turntable, instead it's turned into a bunch of "mother hens" having a chicken fight. Anyway back to the ORIGINAL question.......... First and foremost, get your rack / stand level, or at least as close as humanly possible and the TT will be easy.

Man , I thought this thread was about helping the guy out in leveling his turntable, instead it's turned into a bunch of "mother hens" having a chicken fight. Anyway back to the ORIGINAL question.......... First and foremost, get your rack / stand level, or at least as close as humanly possible and the TT will be easy.
You are right, and he just made my argument stronger for me. I'll go listen to my records now.

I appreciate all the help , and even the tangents, from the posts on this thread. Although I am going to try and level out the cement floor, because of the location of plumbing access caps, it will most likely remain fairly uneven. I will try to level the rack, but I doubt I'll be able to do this and stabilize it firmly as well.

BTW, my Thorens is a floating suspension 'table. So far, the simplest solution seems to be taking one of the screws from the feet of the Thorens to the local HD and getting flat- bottomed bolts with enough length to level out the turntable. Maybe putting Vibrapods under the bolt-heads would be a way to add stability and isolation from rack vibrations, too. My cement floor, as you might expect, is free from vibrations.

I am greatful to all for the replies, and look forward to more.

I think the vibrapods and bolts are a good idea provided you buy the shorest bolts that will do the job. Be sure to purchase the right vibrapods for the weight it will support. I had problems with my large floor standing speakers vibrating the turntable but the problem was solved with vibrapods placed on the turntable base but not on the rubber feet itself. I did that since I was concerned about the stability of rubber on rubber. (Also I had read it was better to put the feet on the base if you had springy turntable feet.) Another point, you cannot place the bolt head directly onto the vibrapods. You will need a 1 and 3/4 inch diameter disk(washer is ok) between the bolt head and vibrapods.
Richard

Hmmmm...more suggestions...Get an inner tube that's not too much bigger than the Thorens, partially deflate it, place a piece of wood, then the turntable. The inner tube should act to somewhat level the turntable.

For those of you who wish to level your turntable for optimal sound quality, I hope you aren't using some crude, primitive, inaccurate device like a hardware-store-bought carpenter's bubble level, are you? You didn't buy your cartridge or turntable in a hardware store, so why would you buy a precision device necessary to calibrate them there?

Although it may seem expensive at first, once you hear the beautiful sound even a modest turntable is capable of once properly balanced, you will be happy you bought this device every single time you play a record:

Precision Digital Turntable Level (http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CMLEVEL)

;) :rolleyes: Happy 4th everybody!

Your suggested turntable lever which cost $400 is appropriate for ultra expensive turntables but for the average turntable the VPI Crosscheck Leveler for $12 from Music Direct will do the job.
Richard

"Only" ultra expensive turntables benefit from very precise leveling? That doesn't make sense to me. Have you actually tried one of these $400 levelers on on a less than "ultra expensive" turntable to determined that, indeed, it had no sonic benefits over your $12 suggestion?

For those of you who wish to level your turntable for optimal sound quality, I hope you aren't using some crude, primitive, inaccurate device like a hardware-store-bought carpenter's bubble level, are you? You didn't buy your cartridge or turntable in a hardware store, so why would you buy a precision device necessary to calibrate them there?

Although it may seem expensive at first, once you hear the beautiful sound even a modest turntable is capable of once properly balanced, you will be happy you bought this device every single time you play a record:

Precision Digital Turntable Level (http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CMLEVEL)

;) :rolleyes: Happy 4th everybody!
It is curious that you were arguing against the need for a level turntable above but recommend a $400 level. This forum never ceases to surprise me.

I used " ;) and :rolleyes:" at the end to denote that I was being sarcastic.

"Only" ultra expensive turntables benefit from very precise leveling? That doesn't make sense to me. Have you actually tried one of these $400 levelers on on a less than "ultra expensive" turntable to determined that, indeed, it had no sonic benefits over your $12 suggestion?
You are right all turntables would benefit from a $400 leveler but it's not economically feasible for less than ultra expensive turntables which are ultra engineered. The average lesser engineered turntable with less precision will do well with the $12 leveler.
Richard

You didn't buy your cartridge or turntable in a hardware store, so why would you buy a precision device necessary to calibrate them there?


Answer is simple, where I live our hardware stores sell extremely accurate laser levels for far less than $400 if one so choses to go that route I suspect. Regardless a good quality bubble level, both of the circular type and a small line level work A-OK in my book. I'm curious......how do you set / check your azimuth ??

I appreciate all the help , I will try to level the rack, but I doubt I'll be able to do this and stabilize it firmly as well.

I am greatful to all for the replies, and look forward to more.


Another "Fix" to your problem would be to get yourself a 'Wall Mount' rack for your TT, given your situation this might be best.

I had a wall mount shelf for the TT years ago in a very shakey apartment. It worked well, and would solve the leveling problem, but I don't like the permanence of it. I f you rearrange your gear, that shelf stays put (remember, I am not very handy). Floor vibrations are a non-issue for me (cement floor). My walls, on the other hand, are made of standard drywall over studs, and there is plenty of vibration in the walls when I crank the system up. A wall shelf might create more problems than it would solve for me. However, if none of these simple fixes work to my satisfaction, a wall-mount shelf might be worth trying.

As part of a flood repair, my contractor will attempt to make the floor a bit more level, although the plumbing access caps will make a perfectly level floor just about impossible.

Doxytuner: I assume your recommendation for the shortest bolts possible is to keep the TT as stable as possible. Why can't the bolt heads just sit in the depressed center of the vibrapods?

Look into the pourable floor leveling products.

I had a wall mount shelf for the TT years ago in a very shakey apartment. It worked well, and would solve the leveling problem, but I don't like the permanence of it. I f you rearrange your gear, that shelf stays put (remember, I am not very handy). Floor vibrations are a non-issue for me (cement floor). My walls, on the other hand, are made of standard drywall over studs, and there is plenty of vibration in the walls when I crank the system up. A wall shelf might create more problems than it would solve for me. However, if none of these simple fixes work to my satisfaction, a wall-mount shelf might be worth trying.

As part of a flood repair, my contractor will attempt to make the floor a bit more level, although the plumbing access caps will make a perfectly level floor just about impossible.

Doxytuner: I assume your recommendation for the shortest bolts possible is to keep the TT as stable as possible. Why can't the bolt heads just sit in the depressed center of the vibrapods?
The short bolts are to keep the TT stable. Use the bolts with the smooth screwhead since you can set that into the washer holes to hold the TT steady. You cannot put the bolt head directly onto the vibrapods since it will deform the vibrapods and make them less effective. Vibrapod recommends the 1 and 3/4" disc for that reason.
Richard

there is plenty of vibration in the walls when I crank the system up. vibrapods?


Dude, you have more problems than your uneven floor, for if your walls "are a shak'in" then I don't care where you put your TT it's gonna' sound like poop !!!!

Step number one......... get your listening room acoustically correct before you get serious about any critical listening. There are plenty of good and affordable companies out there. I use GIK Acoustics out of Atlanta, Ga. Glen is a good guy to work with.

Good Luck , I think your gonna need it !!

Make your own "vibrapods" perhaps? Buy a cheap, rubber (neoprene) mouse pad, cut into 4 pieces (or even eight for double thickness), sandwich between layers of hard plastic like CD jewel case material if you wish or use directly under the TT's feet. Just a thought.

Make your own "vibrapods" perhaps? Buy a cheap, rubber (neoprene) mouse pad, cut into 4 pieces (or even eight for double thickness), sandwich between layers of hard plastic like CD jewel case material if you wish or use directly under the TT's feet. Just a thought.
Sounds like it may work but for me I would prefer the vibrapods which I know work. The cost is $5.99 each.
Richard

Build yourself a flexirack. http://www.jetcom.org/~jsb/flexirack.php
There are many web references. It's basically 3 or 4 threaded metal rods for legs, bolts and washers for where each leg goes thru the shelves and mdf cut by your local hd or lowes for the shelving. You just have to drill the holes. Oversize the holes a bit to allow the shelf to be moved to a flat position and tighten the bolts. Voila, flat and stable and ready for your vibrapods and final tonearm setup. You may find that the legs are uneven at the top as you make adjustments for your uneven floor. Certain legs will reach different heights above the top shelf so make sure your dimensions are big enough to fit the tt within the legs. Use a 2 shelf setup and use the lower shelf for your vinyl collection.

Thanks again, all.

Twitch 54: The walls are not as bad as that, but they of course have more give than the cement floor. My system sounds pretty good, actually, and I have put some treatments on the wall and ceiling first reflection points. I do have space problems, with a rack that is too close to the right speaker, but I am working on rearranging things a bit to reduce this problem.

bilboa: I'l look at that site, but nearle every DIY project I've ever done just comes out like crap. I tend to look for ready-made solutions like the Vibrapods.

I am a few weeks away from reassembling the rig (had to haul it upstairs because of the flood in April). I'll keep you posted.

Your suggested turntable lever which cost $400 is appropriate for ultra expensive turntables but for the average turntable the VPI Crosscheck Leveler for $12 from Music Direct will do the job.
Richard

Very neat website. But $1k for a 3ft power cable?

Unfortunately, many TT's don't have replaceable power cords, so you'll never know what benefits it might offer unless your TT does have a replaceable design. But a power cord is only as good as the AC power you send through it. Right? From exactly the same prestigious, audiophile magazines which recommend critically leveling a TT beyond the capabilities of the human eye, come several "editor's choice awards" and glowing recommendations for this AC power conditioner: THE AUDIENCE ADEPT RESPONSE AR12 (http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AUDAR12S)
If we are to trust these magazines as to the importance of critically leveling a TT using instrumentation, not just the eye, then there's obviously no reason to doubt them as to the benefits if this AC conditioner. Right? ;)

For me I feel the mentioned AC Conditioner and Power Cord are worthless.I would not accept them for free. Others may feel otherwise and I respect their opinion.
Richard