i have a Jolida 502A Tube amp that i have used for 10 years. Very happy with it. Use it for 2ch LPs and CDs. Have Jolida CDplayer. Also use the Jolida for Left "right Channel for HT and let my receiver power Center and Surrounds. Any other tube amps lovers. Uses 6550C Powwer tubes 60watts/ch.

Me! Not many tubies here on AVSforum it seems. I rarely get responses on tube amp issues. Maybe its due to the seemingly overwhelming home theater user base here, maybe not.

I have a Jolida SJ302A powering my main 2 channel rig - Denon 3910 and a pair of Strata Minis. It is EL34 based and I didn't realize how good it was till I replaced the power tubes recently, as I bought it used.

Also have a Melody SP3 powering my bedroom 2 channel rig - a Denon 2910 and a pair of Onix Ref 1s. The SP3 runs on 6551s

The tube sound definitely is for me. I ditched my solid state stuff and never looked back.

Using a Jolida 302-B to power a secondary system in the living room, fed by a Rotel 1072 CD player, driving Totem Arro's. I love it, basically all stock with the exception of 'rolling in' different 12ax7's and 12at7's in the pre-amp stage.

Hmmmm....

My mains are powered by an old Carver 1.0t (tube transfer function, at least in theory). However, the real tube stuff is in my guitar amps. Main is a Bogner XTC 101b - 4 x EL34; backup is a Marshall 3203 - 2 x EL34. Both have 12 AX7 driver sections.

There is a reason that almost all pro rock guitarists use tubes...... ;)

I use Manley Snapper monoblocks in my audio system. 4 EL34's each. Great amps.

larry

In my stereo music system, I use a Counterpoint 5.1 (this is the model No., not channels) preamp (2 x 6DJ8s in phono and line sections) and two VTL 225 monoblocks (8 EL34s per side) for the mid and upper frequencies. I use a 200 W transistor power amp for the bass.

I'm using the Shindo Laboratory Aurieges L preamp and Montille power amp. Very nice stuff.

I want to get into tubes friends. Help. My HT is definitely set with a 1080p projector/pre processor/amp, rocket speakers, SVS sub.

In the living room (of a house I have not bought yet, HAHA!) - I plan to have a pioneer plasma, along with a 2 channel setup for audio/music.

Is Tube the way to go, and what's the best price/performance ratio tube amp/speaker set out there right now?

Thanks,
ELmO

I have a "kit made" Welborne Ultrapath pre-amp and Terraplane 300B monoblocks with home-made speakers using Supravox 215EXC field coil drivers & Fountek ribbon supertweeters in open baffle and 12" NHT 1259's in a sealed enclosure for the bass. Mainly I plan vinyl and the sound is really nice.

I got a Manley Stingray Integrated Tube Amp, Rotel 1072 CD Player and Totem Hawks. I love it! I also use my tube amp to power my left and right channel in my 5.1 (no center, phantom center) home theater setup.

Glad I started this post. Jolida ,Rouge.PrimaLuna have tube amps under$2k. check out the web sites. if good with soldering iron, check out used tube amps onEBay. wish we had 5 ch tube intregated amps, but power tubes and output transformers take too much real estate on chassis.

I want to get into tubes friends. Help. My HT is definitely set with a 1080p projector/pre processor/amp, rocket speakers, SVS sub.

In the living room (of a house I have not bought yet, HAHA!) - I plan to have a pioneer plasma, along with a 2 channel setup for audio/music.

Is Tube the way to go, and what's the best price/performance ratio tube amp/speaker set out there right now?

Thanks,
ELmO

Hi,

My 2 cents. The rockets model I looked at on av123 website is 87dB sensitive so without knowing your room size and listening levels my recommendation would be to go for at least 200 wpc. Now this is a lot of wattage for tube amps as most of them are 100 watts or less and the bigger ones are quiet expensive as well.

Your options as I am able to see would be to go either with a Hybrid design like moscode 401, a fine amp as I have heard from other folks, or an ARC HD220. Another way could be to go with a tube pre with an HT bypass like the new pre (don't remember the model) from Cary Audio and pair it with an SS amp. The best and special thing about Cary Audio pre is that the bypass is a "real" bypass where you don't even need to turn on the pre during movies. That gives you extra tube life and does not colour the sound so matching your mains with the center channel is easier.

HTH.

Sincerely,
-dollarman

I'm not sure I agree with the wattage requirements given above. I have a pair of Strata Minis, also from AV123 that are about the same in efficiency as the rockets mentioned. They are powered by a 50wpc tube amp in a large room and I could not stand the volume above 3/4 full. Previously they were powered in the same room by a 38wpc amp that also put out more sound than I could handle.

Its all about that first watt, it gets you to 87db at 1 meter. Its not hard to see how far 50 watts would get you.

^^^^ At 8ft from your speakers 50watts would be about 99 db SPL. Pretty loud. :)

larry

Lets assume that the listener is only 3 metres away from the speakers. That means you already need 4 watts to produce 87db. Doing the math it should take 64 watts to produce 99 db. Add to that music transients and movie sound effects I can't how a 50 wpc would be able to pull it off without distorting. If you love tube distortion that this is ok but if you don't its better to have a bit of headroom.

IMHO smaller tube amps (<= 50 wpc) have problems with the bass control as well but this probably debateable as most people using tubes are midrange freaks anyway.

I use an Anthem Amp 1, it's a 40 EL 34 PP amp that sounds great. I'm using Mullard N.O.S. tubes for the driver and inverter and Groove Tube 6CA7 for the output tubes. I purchased it shorty after it was discontinued brand new for $599 ! It's been a killer little amp.

IMHO smaller tube amps (<= 50 wpc) have problems with the bass control as well but this probably debateable as most people using tubes are midrange freaks anyway.

I sort of agree with this. I often forget that my Strata Minis have powered woofers, so the tubes' ability to produce copious bass is negated.

I power a pair of Onix Ref 1s with a 38wpc tube amp, but they are augmented with a powered sub, so once again - the ability of the amp to produce bass is hidden. The Ref 1s aren't a really good indicator anyway though as they are monitors and not full range speakers.

I'm looking a Jolida amp, not sure at this time, but something about $600-$800. How would it match with a Totem Hawk, Triangle Antal ESw, or Dali Ikon 6?

I want to get into tubes friends. Help. My HT is definitely set with a 1080p projector/pre processor/amp, rocket speakers, SVS sub.

In the living room (of a house I have not bought yet, HAHA!) - I plan to have a pioneer plasma, along with a 2 channel setup for audio/music.

Is Tube the way to go, and what's the best price/performance ratio tube amp/speaker set out there right now?

Thanks,
ELmO

I visited my out-of-town relative who has a tube preamp and class D amp. For less than US$1000 (conversion from foreign currency):

http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/catalog/tree/en/us/consumer/home_entertainment_gr_us_consumer/audio_systems_ca_us_consumer/ce/_activeTab_specifications/_productId_MCD908_37_US_CONSUMER/DVD_Micro_Theater+MCD908_37?proxybuster=DDJMCF3OSLC3TJ0RMRCS HQNHKFSESI5P

I had an opportunity to listen for 1 hour only. Based on that I would say it sounds very good.

Well, while I am not running tube amps, I am running (actually ordered and waiting for all to be built) a pair of SS mono's and a tube pre. I'm really anxious to see how this combo will sound, I suspect (hope) excellent.

I have even ordered a few sets of tubes already! :D The new equipment is a few weeks out, but at least the tubes will be here.

I can see where tube rolling can tend to be expensive, as a good matched pair of NOS vintage tubes tend to run between $110.00-$200.00. :eek:

Mark

I've been running a Pathos Classic One 1 and Paganini CD set for about 7 years, I like it quite a lot. Recently, I went to Jolida to audition the 1501RC just for giggles, when I made a big mistake. I asked the fella to hook up the JD3000A/B system (less expensive version of the Envoy). Coupled with the JD100A CD player and Dali Helicon 400s, this enveloping 3 dimensional sound stage literally leapt out of the Dalis (something real special about Danish audio) to a degree that I had never previously experienced. Fluid, accurate, and completely musical. My son was there with me, another AV junkie, we turned and looked at each other and both our faces simultaneously sprouted the OH YEAH grin. While not inexpensive, for what I heard, I suspect folk would gladly pay double. I plan on owning a set very soon.

PS I listened to a McIntosh 3 component rig through B&W 800Ds a few weeks ago, it wasn't even close

Absolutely. Sight, hearing and the brain are inseparable elements of sound perception. If one accepts that, then one will more readily accept that the showroom would be a place where one could accurately judge sound quality. But then there is the acoustic of the showroom that may be better or worse than your own room. So how is it possible to rule out the acoustic of the showroom?

Okay, never mind. The truth is not important. :D It's all about enjoyment, and the upgrade bug! Now apparently, recording studios don't care about sound quality and that's why they use solid state gears in most cases. But you and I can buy tube gears to bring back the tube sound even if the recording was done using solid state gears. Just a thought.

How convoluted is the audio world! We are all humans and believe in what we hear from our fellow human beings and we all agree that tube is best, and that it has nothing to do with marketing, or technology. Perception is everything so they tell us it's the number one rule in Customer Service.

..have enjoyed valve amps all my life. Also, a valve pre-amp, of course. Quicksilver is a great little company that makes great sounding amps. And they are bargains as well. Mono is way to go with amp right behind the speakers. My pre-amp is a VAC and is the heart of my system. Speakers are Duntech (from AU). My first love is music and not tv by the way. Give me Frank and Ella any day! And Miller swingin in the Big Band way.

Last night I was fiddling with the hi-fi in my bedroom and substituted a tube preamp (hot-rodded PAS 3) for the SS one (Citation 17) I'd been using.

The sound became smoother and more open and a transistorized glare went away. Funny though, all the rest of the gear is SS---an active crossover and then a Teac Tri-path above 1600hz and a big-hog QSC below 1600.

This is what I think anyway. It's hard to fight the BS even when you're aware it exists, sometimes you hear what you expect to hear, know what I mean?

http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/catalog/tree/en/us/consumer/home_entertainment_gr_us_consumer/audio_systems_ca_us_consumer/ce/_productId_MCD908_37_US_CONSUMER/DVD_Micro_Theater+MCD908_37

consists of tube preamps, class D ss amp, DVD/CD player and 2 speakers. Looks like a great deal. If you don't play very loud, 50w/ch should be quite adequate. The price is not so high so that the set is attractive for anyone who wants to try tube gears.

Anyone knows of a US retailer?

Another tube lover signing in.

I use Conrad Johnson Premier 12 monoblocks. They are a superb combination of the things I love about tubes, but little of the failings (great bass, can drive any speaker I put to them, realistic transient detail etc).

I'm using two different tube preamps at the moment. One custom-built by a local guy - very good. Another is an old Audible Illusions pre-amp that was tweaked to the max. Practically every part that could be upgraded was upgraded in quality...by a bunch of guys who wanted to see just what that amp could do with the best parts. It produces a stunningly "quiet," liquid, grainless, jaw-droppingly dimensional presentation. Paired (at the moment) with some old Hales T-1 monitors (and some meadowlarks sometimes)....it's sonic nirvana. Sound I'd choose over many ultra expensive systems I've heard.

(I've had a lot of expensive floor-standing speakers of all types come through my listening room, from Quads/Gradient Subwoofers, Thiel, Shun Mook, Waveform, Meadowlark, Audio Physic, Hales floor-standers and more...but at the moment I'm using smaller monitors because some of my space and budget have been eaten by my foray into Home Theater).

Just starting with tubes here :) I couldn't be happier with my Dodd ELP pre, Sophia baby power amp, with a whopping 10wpc. I'm running Tectron 4.5 speakers, which I must say are the best value on any audio gear I've purchased to date. Very Very happy with this system.

About 18 months ago I bought a used Conrad-Johnson PV-11 preamp for my 2-channel sources and the front mains of my combo HT/2-channel rig. Made quite a difference in an otherwise all SS system, with a smoother presentation and wider soundstage and especially increased low-level detail vs. my Sherwood/Newcastle P-965. I am seriously considering a tube CD player next. Still a little reluctant on tube amps - higher maintenance and risk. Also, my Odyssey Audio HT3 is pretty smooth for SS.

Bond map, it is not that hard. if you need to bias, get a voltmeter from radio Shack, Power tubes should last 2-3 years depending on use. Little more work than SS , but worth the effort and not that bad.

Hmmmm....

My mains are powered by an old Carver 1.0t (tube transfer function, at least in theory). However, the real tube stuff is in my guitar amps. Main is a Bogner XTC 101b - 4 x EL34; backup is a Marshall 3203 - 2 x EL34. Both have 12 AX7 driver sections.

There is a reason that almost all pro rock guitarists use tubes...... ;)

nice to see theres some fellow guitar nuts around here

Fender Twin 2x 6L6s 2x EL84s (THD Yellowjackets mod) in the power section.

GASing over a Road King for the last 2 years... that thing is a 14 tube monster!!

The penchant many guitarists have for tube amps has nothing to do with high-fidelity. Guitarists use tubes and crappy Jensen and Celestion speakers because they seek a certain signature sound but in theory a hi-fi should lack a sound of it's own.

The difference between something that produces music and something that reproduces it.

Absolutely. Sight, hearing and the brain are inseparable elements of sound perception. If one accepts that, then one will more readily accept that the showroom would be a place where one could accurately judge sound quality. But then there is the acoustic of the showroom that may be better or worse than your own room. So how is it possible to rule out the acoustic of the showroom?


Picked up that JoLida JD3000 mono block amp preamp combo with optional factory mods. My show room experience provided the benefits that one would expect, a reasonable expectation for what might be replicated in a given environment.

The 3000 simply sounds incredible. The transparency is perceptibly clear right to the back of the room, spot-on tonal balance, tremendous bass control, and intense dynamic contrasts. Not surprisingly, the 200 wpc push pull design drove my semi active ACT AL3TAs with ease (although the character of the presentation was different from that of the Dali Helicon 400s used in the demo). They have the dynamics and grip that is not typical for this style of amplifier. The tonal quality is not so much warm as it is accurate, it is just right (for my listening tastes - which should be the deciding factor in any HiFi purchase).

It did take a bit of tweaking zero things in, the 8ohm setting was preferable to the 4, even though my speakers are rated 4-6. Also had to toe out the speakers to about ~170 degrees. All n all Mike Allen (another lover of good sounding music) has designed a very nice 2 channel all tube rig. Nothing to do now but sit back and wait about a 100 or so hours til the tubes begin to hit their stride...

BTW, the aesthetics of the current model are a marked improvement over ones shown in available stock photos (not sure why they don't get rid of those). I have to put a plug in for the great folks out west at USA Tube Audio they are a class act.

The penchant many guitarists have for tube amps has nothing to do with high-fidelity. Guitarists use tubes and crappy Jensen and Celestion speakers because they seek a certain signature sound but in theory a hi-fi should lack a sound of it's own.

The difference between something that produces music and something that reproduces it.
Good point, although I prefer my tubes to any ss for music reproduction. The transparency and soundstage is heads above any other amp/pre amp I've owned. It is imperative to use high efficient speakers with tubes though.

Picked up that JoLida JD3000 mono block amp preamp combo with optional factory mods. My show room experience provided the benefits that one would expect, a reasonable expectation for what might be replicated in a given environment.

The 3000 simply sounds incredible. The transparency is perceptibly clear right to the back of the room, spot-on tonal balance, tremendous bass control, and intense dynamic contrasts. Not surprisingly, the 200 wpc push pull design drove my semi active ACT AL3TAs with ease (although the character of the presentation was different from that of the Dali Helicon 400s used in the demo). They have the dynamics and grip that is not typical for this style of amplifier. The tonal quality is not so much warm as it is accurate, it is just right (for my listening tastes - which should be the deciding factor in any HiFi purchase).

It did take a bit of tweaking zero things in, the 8ohm setting was preferable to the 4, even though my speakers are rated 4-6. Also had to toe out the speakers to about ~170 degrees. All n all Mike Allen (another lover of good sounding music) has designed a very nice 2 channel all tube rig. Nothing to do now but sit back and wait about a 100 or so hours til the tubes begin to hit their stride...

BTW, the aesthetics of the current model are a marked improvement over ones shown in available stock photos (not sure why they don't get rid of those). I have to put a plug in for the great folks out west at USA Tube Audio they are a class act.

Hmmm... perhaps one day I would have a tube amp. It seems like yesterday when the college dorm mate blasted music out of his Fisher (glowing tubes inside) system. Oh I sold my Knight Kit tube amp to that guy after spending hours assembling the unit, using soldering iron, screw drivers and etc.

I recently listened to my relative's tube system and that made me rethink about the tube option.

Hey guy's, I'd like to hear your opinion on this setup.


12x10 listening room/HT

90db speakers (B&W 684's)

Sophia "Baby" Tube amp (Class A 10 wpc)
http://www.sophiaelectric.com/

HK 3485 2 channel receiver (120 wpc)



I really like the looks of the Sophia as well, and there's lots of reviews on this specific amp. Is this enough power to power these speakers efficiently and a decent listening volume? This same setup will be used for some HD DVD's as well..

I'd really like to get my feet wet with tube amps. Is this a good starting point? Sophia says this amp "should" work with speakers above 89db. Some of the reviews I've read recommend getting speakers with sensitivity above 92db.


EDIT: Also considering a used pair of Onix(AV123) Strata Mini's, but these are rated at 86db. I have also considered the SP3 tube amp which is 38 wpc Class AB.


Thanks for your help,


-Nick

Good question. I picked up a pair of strata minis from the one and only MLS from AV123. Owned by himself! Now I need an amp. My room is 20x20, but I'm not using it for movies...simply music...not sure if the SP3 is enough...never gotten into tubes before either...not sure what to do yet....

Going nuts in my new house...audio everywhere:eek:

Good question. I picked up a pair of strata minis from the one and only MLS from AV123. Owned by himself! Now I need an amp. My room is 20x20, but I'm not using it for movies...simply music...not sure if the SP3 is enough...never gotten into tubes before either...not sure what to do yet....

Going nuts in my new house...audio everywhere:eek:


Did you get MLS to sign the speakers?



I've found that quite a few members use the SP3 with their Mini's, but I'm looking for something a little better looking.

I've got in contact with the Sophia company, and have also considered a Jolida amp.

http://www.vacuumtube.com/JD%20102b.htm

It can probably be had for a little cheaper, if you shop around, but I'm just using it as a reference.


At this point, I'm not looking to spend more than a thousand dollars.

Hah, I wonder if I should have him sign them - he hasn't shipped them yet. Man that would rule, huh!!

I'm looking for a more powerful tube amp I guess. The SP3 is 38W and everyone says it does a good job with the minis, but I can spend up to 1K for a better tube amp....

We're in the same boat.

I'm going nuts. I have a new house being built (done in NOvember) with a finished basement...in it:
onix rocket 750s, 200, 300s (purchased)
EMO UL (purchased)
SVS 16-46 PCi (probably x2, if I buy another)
JVC RS1 1080p projector (purchased)
Toshiba XA2 or XA3 HD-DVd player (whatever is out come november)
XBOX 360, PS3

First floor 2 story great room will have:
onix strata minis (purchased)
Nintendo wii (purchased)
pioneer 5080HD 720p plasma (not purchased) - PC hooked up to it
which amp to power minis?

outside deck:
2 outdoor speakers

Upstairs:
possible 720 projector in a "bedroom"
smaller speaker/sub setup
modded XBOX connected to it (to play emulated oldschool games)

"I really like the looks of the Sophia as well, and there's lots of reviews on this specific amp. Is this enough power to power these speakers efficiently and a decent listening volume?"


Probably not. Maybe adequate volume with little girl with guitar music, not with powerful orchestral or rock and roll music.

I've had low power tube amps run out of gas with speakers far more efficient and capable of far more output than those B&Ws.

"I really like the looks of the Sophia as well, and there's lots of reviews on this specific amp. Is this enough power to power these speakers efficiently and a decent listening volume?"


Probably not. Maybe adequate volume with little girl with guitar music, not with powerful orchestral or rock and roll music.

I've had low power tube amps run out of gas with speakers far more efficient and capable of far more output than those B&Ws.


Thanks for your advice. I might settle on a higher output AB Jolida or this Sophia..

http://www.audionote.com.sg/products/amplifier/sophia/el34.htm
(Just for reference. They have it on their homepage, but the extension doesn't work. On Sophia page this model is being blown out for $599 + $150 labor/parts to convert from Euro model to US model) EDIT: I'd even take the finish pictured in the link, which is of the EL-34, the amp I'm highly considering.

35 wpc class A. I'm thinking this is more what I'm looking at. $870 to convert this older (discontinued) model to US voltage, plus coupling capacitors upgrade. And one of the customer service people said it could/should be possible to customize this unit and have it done in this finish.


http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0703/sophiababy.jpg


That sure would be purrty :) (except for moving the on/off switch to the back or side; BTW this is the Music Baby Amp)

Manley Mahi mono blocks.
Very happy.

+1 on the Jolida 302b. I've changed the main tubes to something I can't remember.

They drive Paradigm Studio 20 v.4's with a Velodyne F1500R 15" servo. I use Airport Express to stream music from my laptop (buy buying a universal player this week for SACD's etc).

I tried driving Magnepan SMGa's through the amp, but felt I was driving it too hard. Sounded way too warm. SMGA's are already warm sounding, and a tube amp doesn't help.

I listen to piano music 85% of the time, and organ/jazz/rock the other. Love it.

Moscode 401HR, rolled in some Siemens CCa grayplates and very happy.

I've got a PrimaLuna Prologue 3 preamp and Prologue 7 monoblocks. Speakers are Monitor Audio GR20s. I love the music these things make, both digital, from a NAD M55 and analog from a Music Hall MMF-5SE.

Haven't started down the tube rolling path, but that isn't far off.

Right now, just enjoying the music.

Eric

I'm running a pair of McIntosh MC2102's in bridged mode. Very sweet. Each amp has 8 KT-88 outputs. The bridged connection really sings with these amps. I'm a happy camper!:)

I see that (as usual) it's different strokes for different folks. In my personal experience, I am willing to sacrifice a large number of ok-to-badly-recorded CD's so that I can hear fabulously recorded CDs or SACDs fabulously. That means a flat respones curve. Not warm, not cold, just flat. I would be willing to learn something here, but as far as I know, "warm" can only mean an exaggerated mid-bass or rolled-off highs. I spent a lot of money on speakers that are supposed to be relatively flat. I would be pi$$ed if they were being fed by an amp with exaggerated mid-bass or rolled-off highs.

Everyone should buy what they like when it comes to tubes or solid state. For me I like solid state since there is less distortion, less maintenance, less expensive, and more extended bass.
Richard

Everyone should buy what they like when it comes to tubes or solid state. For me I like solid state since there is less distortion, less maintenance, less expensive, and more extended bass.
Richard


You paint with a broad brush. You imply that SS amps have better objective specs than tubes yet there are tubes amps that have lower distortion and more extended bass than many SS amps have.

SS is generally less expensive, I'll grant you that. Keeping tube amps biased and tubes in good shape doesn't seem to bother enthusiasts.

Besides, subjectively a tube amp that hasn't been touched in 40 years can sound better than a brand new SS amp. Tube amps that aren't performing tip-top can still be performing very well.

You paint with a broad brush. You imply that SS amps have better objective specs than tubes yet there are tubes amps that have lower distortion and more extended bass than many SS amps have.

SS is generally less expensive, I'll grant you that. Keeping tube amps biased and tubes in good shape doesn't seem to bother enthusiasts.

Besides, subjectively a tube amp that hasn't been touched in 40 years can sound better than a brand new SS amp. Tube amps that aren't performing tip-top can still be performing very well.

You prefer a quality tube amplifier for the reasons you stated and I prefer a quality solid state amplifier for the reasons I stated. Obviously we're both happy with our selections and this is what is important.
Richard

To doxy, what SS amp do you own? What tube amp did you compare to so that you concluded SS amp is right for you?

To Tom, a tube amp unused for 40 years is DEAD. Its caps are all screwed. There is no way that it can sound better....

I switched to tube amps recently after a couple decades of SS amps. They are really nice. :-)

ModWright Denon 3910 CD player with Bendix 6900 tubes
BAT VK-3iX with Super-Pak and Six-Pak
Melody KT-88 Monoblocks with Gold Lion KT88 and NOS 6SN7s
Acoustic Zen Adagio speakers

Marantz 9 pair and KLH Model Nines with TC Sounds subs.

To doxy, what SS amp do you own? What tube amp did you compare to so that you concluded SS amp is right for you?

To Tom, a tube amp unused for 40 years is DEAD. Its caps are all screwed. There is no way that it can sound better....

I switched to tube amps recently after a couple decades of SS amps. They are really nice. :-)

ModWright Denon 3910 CD player with Bendix 6900 tubes
BAT VK-3iX with Super-Pak and Six-Pak
Melody KT-88 Monoblocks with Gold Lion KT88 and NOS 6SN7s
Acoustic Zen Adagio speakers

I owned the McIntosh 275 tube amp,McIntosh 2150 solid state amp, and the NAD C272 solid state amp. I prefer the solid state amp for the reasons posted above. Your system looks great.( I goggled the speakers since I was not familiar with them.) I forgot to mention I also had the McIntosh MR71 tube tuner but prefer solid state.

Richard

To Tom, a tube amp unused for 40 years is DEAD. Its caps are all screwed. There is no way that it can sound better....



Can't sound better than what? You can't say what can sound better than what anyway, this hobby is subjective.

Just because an amp isn't working it's best doesn't mean it's dead--DEAD, as you put it. I warrant there are people who'd prefer the sound of an unworked on 40 year old Fisher over a great deal of brand new SS stuff. Actually over some brand new tube stuff too.

We are all inherently bisaed in one way or another, but something that can't be questioned is our thrive for audio technology.

Can't sound better than what? You can't say what can sound better than what anyway, this hobby is subjective.

Just because an amp isn't working it's best doesn't mean it's dead--DEAD, as you put it. I warrant there are people who'd prefer the sound of an unworked on 40 year old Fisher over a great deal of brand new SS stuff. Actually over some brand new tube stuff too.

Ummmm....I think vett93 was right. Electrolytic caps have about a 20-yr life; they can live longer if they are in regular use, shorter if they sit de-energized. The HV filter (B+) caps in the power supply of a tube amp are critical to its transient response and s/n performance, so what he said makes absolute sense.

The unique sound of tube amps esp on strings suggests there's a lot of improvement left in the audio field. Having played around with both, I find SS easier to live with. I really liked things like cheap tube clock radios or tube car radios.

Never been to this site (I came here looking for info on LCD's), but I guess I was drawn to the stereo section.
I have a Rogue Audio Tempest II... very happy with it. Yes, it's an integrated amp, but I mostly play vinyl, and have a Jolida tube phono preamp, and I really like it.

I have an Onix SP3 with rolled tubes in all but the power position (GE triple black mica 5751s in AX7, EH 6922, Sylvania triple mica 5814As in AU7) and I am loving the quality of the sound now. I bought some AT7 Mullards (only way to get into mullards without taking out a loan) that should be here soon...looking forward to see how they sound.

I am running DIY Jordan JX92s in a 5.2 L sealed bookshelf with X-sub giving the low end goods.

I will hopefully be ordering a SET amp soon...we will see if I have to change speakers, I hope not, I love my Jordans.

Can't sound better than what? You can't say what can sound better than what anyway, this hobby is subjective.

I warrant there are people who'd prefer the sound of an unworked on 40 year old Fisher over a great deal of brand new SS stuff. Actually over some brand new tube stuff too.


Tom, Anybody that thinks a 40 year old unused Fisher sounds "Good" does not know what "Good" sound is all about. On the other hand if the individual that owns that 40 year old piece is half again as old as it then of course he / she would say it sounds good, for they have already lost a significant portion of the auditory ability !!

And as the other poster said , caps have long since degraded.

I think the "good" sound you are probably referring to is one of nostalgic memory of days gone by !!

that this TUBE thread has the MOST views and replies in all of the 2 channel audio forum.

If you're looking for a good value tube system from a company that has a large selection, excellent quality and reliability. expensive features for cheap money, check out AudioSpace. Largest amp seller in Japan.

There's a review of one of their amps here:
http://www.stereomojo.com/AudioSpaceGalaxy88integratedtubeamplifierreview.htm

I want to get into tubes friends. Help. My HT is definitely set with a 1080p projector/pre processor/amp, rocket speakers, SVS sub.

In the living room (of a house I have not bought yet, HAHA!) - I plan to have a pioneer plasma, along with a 2 channel setup for audio/music.

Is Tube the way to go, and what's the best price/performance ratio tube amp/speaker set out there right now?

Thanks,
ELmO

As far as I can tell this is the best price/performance ratio amplifier available:

http://www.amazon.com/Sonic-Impact-15-Watt-Portable-Amplifier/dp/B00009W44B

as funny as it sounds it's actually been discussed by a lot of groups out there (possibly already on here as well)

http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/power-amps/t-amp.html


As far as tube amps Vs. solid state goes my personal opinion is this. Tube amps do distort warmer (more gradually) than a solid state transistor based amp will. This is good when you WANT distortion in of the original content. I use a tube guitar amp (Mesa Boogie) when I am creating content. When you want to reproduce content you want to be able to generate it as accurately as possible and avoid distortion all together (in my opinion) so I like solid state amplifiers for this. I guess you may simply like the tube sound, but keep in mind it is not necessarily an accurate reproduction of what is on the recording.

The only caveat to this I can think of right now is if the recording was mixed with a tube amplifier itself. I guess this would be true for older stuff, but in that case you would want to try and reproduce any distortions the engineer heard when the album was originally mixed.

As far as tube amps Vs. solid state goes my personal opinion is this. Tube amps do distort warmer (more gradually) than a solid state transistor based amp will. This is good when you WANT distortion in of the original content. I use a tube guitar amp (Mesa Boogie) when I am creating content. When you want to reproduce content you want to be able to generate it as accurately as possible and avoid distortion all together (in my opinion) so I like solid state amplifiers for this. I guess you may simply like the tube sound, but keep in mind it is not necessarily an accurate reproduction of what is on the recording.

The only caveat to this I can think of right now is if the recording was mixed with a tube amplifier itself. I guess this would be true for older stuff, but in that case you would want to try and reproduce any distortions the engineer heard when the album was originally mixed.

Your statement above may be true of guitar amps but is completely wrong when it comes to mid and high end audio amps available today. To say that they distort or are not accurate reproducers of the source is simply ignorant.

Eric

Yeah, if you did an a/b test between tube and ss, there's no way you would say that the tube amp distorts. At least, with decent equipment. My stuff isn't "high-end", but my Rogue sounds pretty distortion-free to me.

I'm not speaking from the perspective of home audio on this. I'm speaking as an electrical engineer. You can look at distortion as any amplification that is non-linear not just something that "sounds bad or distorted". The technology inherent to vacuum tubes distort earlier than that in silicon. If you plot out the transfer function of the device you'll see this. You can aid this by keeping the gain low enough so that the tube stays in its linear region of operation. The fact remains though that tubes do begin to distort earlier than transistors.

One result of earlier distortion, though, is a more gradual distortion. It will in fact be less harsh sounding than a solid state transistor distortion. This is one reason why (at least in the guitar world) you can look at a tube amp of some rated power as being subjectively louder than an equivalently rated solid state amp. For guitar amps they typically rate the power level at 10% total harmonic distortion. The tube amp will reach 10% earlier in it's gain curve, but will approach total distortion more gradually. This means that you can get the power up much higher before it starts to sound bad.

Another reason why people often think that tubes sound better is the (typical) way that they distort. This is really all dependent on the topology of the amplifier, but tube amps ofter are designed with single ended output stages and will distort asymmetrically. This results in both odd and even order harmonics (even order harmonics will be less dissonant). A transistor amp will, typically, cancel out its even order harmonics and be left with only odd harmonics. This results in less THD, but the distortion it does have sounds harsher.

The fact remains, though, that even though a tube may sound warmer, or richer, this is still the result of soft distortion. Also, a tube is less linear in its linear region of operation than a transistor is. So amplifier topology aside a tube will distort earlier, and a transistor amplifier operating in its linear region of operation will have less THD than a tube operating at the same point in its transfer function.

I also want to add regarding the 3rd paragraph in my above post.

Will a 50W rated tube amplifier operating at 50W output sound better than a 50W SS amp operating at 50W? Probably. This is because the rating of the amplifier has to do with the THD at that particular power output. 10% THD of a tube amplifier will sound better than 10% THD of most SS amplifiers due to the way it distorts. So, you can't compare a tube amp to an equally rated SS amplifier operating at a near maximum output.

If you look at a tube amplifier next to a SS amplifier, both operating at points that are significantly away from their maximum output. Then the SS amplifier will have less THD. The distortion it does have will be more dissonant, but it will still be less.

That seems like a logical (and amazingly descriptive) response about distortion. That's way too technical for me, but it sounds like you know this stuff pretty well. Good to know.

I think it is extremely unlikely that anyone could "hear" any difference in THD between a solid state and a tube amp. Sure it shows up on the scope, but I for one, don't listen with my eyes.

That said there are tube amps that are colder or more analytical and there are sand amps that are warmer or more liquid in their presentation. How much you hear this has to do with system synergy or the lack thereof.

Eric

As far as I can tell this is the best price/performance ratio amplifier available:

As far as tube amps Vs. solid state goes my personal opinion is this. Tube amps do distort warmer (more gradually) than a solid state transistor based amp will. This is good when you WANT distortion in of the original content. I use a tube guitar amp (Mesa Boogie) when I am creating content. When you want to reproduce content you want to be able to generate it as accurately as possible and avoid distortion all together (in my opinion) so I like solid state amplifiers for this. I guess you may simply like the tube sound, but keep in mind it is not necessarily an accurate reproduction of what is on the recording.

The only caveat to this I can think of right now is if the recording was mixed with a tube amplifier itself. I guess this would be true for older stuff, but in that case you would want to try and reproduce any distortions the engineer heard when the album was originally mixed.

I believe that you will find, that most reviewers of the T-amp, like the T-amp for the value to sound quality within its given price range; and not necessarily sound quality in comparison to higher end amps, tube or not. Bottom line there is no way that the T-amp competes with quality tube amps; I know because I use one in my wood working room and shop. Yes for the money excellent sounding amp. But, my original Dynaco 70 tube amp that I have owned for 30 years blows it away in blind A-B testing with everyone that I have tried it with; simply blows it away.

As far as the difference between tubes and solid state goes. Tube equipment is none fatiguing and very emotionally enjoyable to listen to, not edgy and fatiguing. To me this equates to much more enjoyable and musical listening sessions, that tend to go on for hours.

Although I feel that I could quite successfully debate your analogy of the difference between tube equipment and solid state, I will not. Because, the bottom line is that you need to listen through your ears, and I mine.

By the way, I as well have a tube amp an older Marshal; that I use daily for amplification to play my Yari hand made acoustic. And, my very old Fender Strat at full tilt. Gotta love it man, gotta love it...

Happy Listening,

Johnny

I have a Cary Sli-80 tubed integrated amp, along with a Cary 308T tubed output CD player in a dedicated two channel setup. For jazz, female vocals, acoustic music, etc., its sublime.

"Tom, Anybody that thinks a 40 year old unused Fisher sounds "Good" does not know what "Good" sound is all about."


Another cocky smartaleck who thinks he has all the answers. You haven't heard the amp so you don't know what it sounds like, not that it seems to keep you from having an opinion on it. Afterall, you think it HAS to sound bad so it must.

I've been with this hobby over 35 years and I currently run 4 hi-fis: one powered with a vintage Fisher tube amp (recently tuned up by Terry DeWick in Knoxville), one by a new Jolida tube amp, one by conventional SS Denon and one bi-amped (REAL bi-amping) with a TEAC T-amp on the treble and a big-hog QSC on the bass. I've a pretty good idea of what good sound is. When I need a reference I go in my music room and play the piano. Or the drumset, or the Fender Jazzbass.

There are such large differences in perfomance between members of each class of amplifier (tube, solid state) that making broad claims of superiority (or not) of one over the other is just nonsense.

Tube Sound? What is that anyway? A 3 W triode amp? Flabby bass from a tiny output transformer? What about the 20 Lb bifilar high nickel steel transformers in the circuit McIntosh uses in the MC 2000 and MC 2102? Hmmmmm.

Solid State Sound? What is that? Harsh highs from a poorly designed bipolar amp with crossover distortion? Or a dynamic bias class 'A' from Nelson Pass? Hmmmmm.

I've been fortunate enough to live with a lot of amps over the years:
Tube; Knight KM-15, Dynaco ST-70 , McIntosh MC 275, McIntosh MC2102.
Solid State; SWTPC Tiger, Luxman L-105 (int), Dynaco ST-400, Nakamichi PA-7, Mark Levinson 33, Classe' Model 15, Sherborn 5100a, Threshold 400a, Hafler DH-200, SAE 2600, Pioneer SX-1280 (receiver) Behringer Europro 2500.

Some of these are very nice, some not so much. Point is, I can't define what tube sound is.

tkdee - I beg to differ with your statement: "The technology inherent to vacuum tubes distort earlier than that in silicon. If you plot out the transfer function of the device you'll see this."

If you look at the plate current vs. grid voltage of a popular power tube, say a KT-88, and at the base current vs. collector current of a high power bipolar junction transistor, and plot the first differential of each curve, you will find the tube to be much more linear, as a device, than the BJT. FET's come closer, I believe, as do IGBT's.


How the devices are built into the final design is, of course, the thing that really matters. Again, I find it difficult to make generalizations on amplifier performance based on the devices used.

"There are such large differences in perfomance between members of each class of amplifier (tube, solid state) that making broad claims of superiority (or not) of one over the other is just nonsense. "



A sensible statement.

So if one were to look for a reciever on the market. Say $1000 solid state or $1000 tube, which would sound better?

So if one were to look for a reciever on the market. Say $1000 solid state or $1000 tube, which would sound better?


Only YOU can judge. Especially as there are $1000 SS units that sound good and others that sound like Skilsaws.

Actually I'm unaware of a modern tube receiver. Lots of integrated amps though.

Only YOU can judge. Especially as there are $1000 SS units that sound good and others that sound like Skilsaws.

Actually I'm unaware of a modern tube receiver. Lots of integrated amps though.

So if you want to go through a reciever route->go SS?

I am also considering going through the route of building my own tube amp. Can someone point me to the right recources for that. Would I save money going through that route?

So if you want to go through a reciever route->go SS?

I am also considering going through the route of building my own tube amp. Can someone point me to the right recources for that. Would I save money going through that route?


If you want a new receiver you'll probably have to go SS. I may be wrong though but as I said I'm unaware of any new tube ones.

There are MANY websites on DIY tube amps, both kits and scratchbuilt. Just do a little searching. Try diyaudio.com for starts. Try Bottlehead too, they make tube amp and preamp kits that are both inexpensive and good sounding.

You might save money on tube gear with DIY but as for saving money in general you can buy a good sounding JVC or Panasonic chip-amp receiver cheaper than you can buy any tube gear I'm aware of, kit or built.

Do those who prefer SS due to its "lower distortion" or "flat FR" do so because you hear this, or because you "know" this?

Tube guitar amp fan here, although I'm currently using a Vox TonelabLE modeler. Cool device.

Do those who prefer SS due to its "lower distortion" or "flat FR" do so because you hear this, or because you "know" this?


Actually "lower distortion" is not the right phrase to use, rather "different distortion" would be more accurate. Tube distortion tends to be more subtle, whereas typical SS(bipolar transistors) tend to be more harsh.

To me the single biggest area that tubes have problems is in the area of "control" with respect to the lower octaves.

Actually "lower distortion" is not the right phrase to use, rather "different distortion" would be more accurate. Tube distortion tends to be more subtle, whereas typical SS(bipolar transistors) tend to be more harsh.

Fair enough, hence my quotation marks.

Actually "lower distortion" is not the right phrase to use, rather "different distortion" would be more accurate. Tube distortion tends to be more subtle, whereas typical SS(bipolar transistors) tend to be more harsh.

To me the single biggest area that tubes have problems is in the area of "control" with respect to the lower octaves.

When I was going though audio school, we refered to this a (natural) electical, harmonic distortion.

Very interesting thread.
I need to replace my Rotel 972 and I'm debating weather go SS or tube or maybe even hybrid.

Yes I'm in that scenario myself. I've been driving a pair of Totem Shaman speakers with a pair of mono bridged Bryston 4BSSTs. A friend brought over a pair of McIntosh MC2102s to compare for a while. Both sets of amps have pros and cons but ouT the gate I don't know if the Macs are powerful enough even when bridged. I like the sweet sounding mids and highs but the bass is alot looser. Not an easy choice.

I've been driving a pair of Totem Shaman speakers with a pair of mono bridged Bryston 4BSSTs. A friend brought over a pair of McIntosh MC2102s to compare for a while. I like the sweet sounding mids and highs but the bass is alot looser. Not an easy choice.


can you bi-amp your Totems ?? if so put your Brystons on the bottom and tubes for mid / high's.

I have a pair of Totem Arro's in a small system in the living room driven by a little Jolida 302B and they actually match quite well.

That was next on my list, Bryston in stereo (500w pc) into the bass bins, Mac(100wpc) into the top enclosure. I've been spending a few days with the Macs (200w bridged) and they are underpowering those speakers. I have them in a large open great room. I'm using a MC-220 tube pre-amp and when I play records with the Brystons (1000w bridged) through a VPI scout TT usually set volume at 45. (Unity is 70) With the Macs I have to raise volume to 65-70.

With power hungry speakers my leaning is you can't beat powerful SS amps but I want to live with the Macs for a while to see if I still feel that way in a few weeks.

I am also a tube amp owner. I have a VTL ST-150 sitting in the box waiting for the day when the kid is older and a dedicated two channel set up can be a possibility.

you guys are making me feel gulity. The 2 channel old tube guy who has gone wayward with solid state and HT. I've had a lot of tube systems in the past. The best was probably BAT VK-120 monoblocks with a BAT VK-Vi pre amp. Even my Theta CBIII couldn't top it. And I'm an die-hard believer in Maggies! Please keep this one going. I've been dying to discuss how to intergrate tubes with HT for a long time.

can you bi-amp your Totems ?? if so put your Brystons on the bottom and tubes for mid / high's.

I have a pair of Totem Arro's in a small system in the living room driven by a little Jolida 302B and they actually match quite well.

After some experimentation I've settled on a horizontal bi-amp configuration with a McIntosh MC2102 tube amp for the mids/highs and Bryston 4BSST for the bass bins. Best of what both amps suggest. The gain switch on the Bryston brought both amps into line. Sweetest mids and tightest bass I've yet heard from those speakers.

I was thinking of replacing my older mid-range Yamaha receiver with a new higher range receiver with either a Yamaha or Denon nameplate. But as I read exhaustively through threads and reviews I quickly came to realize a few things: I'm perfectly happy with how movies sound in my space now--there's sufficient whiz, bang and clarity; I listen to 2 channel audio 95% of the time my stereo is switched on; and I prefer simplicity. When I was deciding on a new pair of speakers I listened to them on a 2 channel tube amp--deciding on Monitor Audio GR 10's. They sounded better on the tubes than they do on the sand. So, if I liked the speakers better on tubes--why would I be buying more SS to ameliorate the deficiency??

I'm surprised more people don't end up this route. What I'm leaning toward is the Rogue Audio Cronus integrated. I'm going to listen to it tomorrow and compare it to some solid state two channel: cambridge audio, creek. Ultimately, it'll be based on the listening, but I'd be happy to receive any advice--that is, if I can get any of you high-enders to consider my pedestrian price ceiling of a couple grand.

I love organ music, but all tube amplifiers I've auditioned do not have juice enough to handle organ's deep bass sounds with enough power. This is particularly noticeable in large rooms. :(

So, in my experience this is the best combo:

Tube preamplifier + SS amplifier. :)

Make sure that amp has enough horsepower to drive those speakers in your listening room. I've never been happy with tube amps (which I dearly love) driving monitor speakers (Spica TC50s, Totem Ones, Quad 11Ls) in other than a near-field capacity.

BTW, a ceiling of a couple grand IS (gagging on cereal) high-end. 99% of the public would faint if they knew you spent five large on listening to music. Enjoy your equipment whatever you buy and have fun!!!!!

I ran my stereo rig like that for a long time. Tube McIntosh c220 pre with dual SS Brystons. If your speakers can handle it the next step would be a tube amp for the mids and SS for the LF. That way you get the best of both amp types.

Best of both worlds IMHO does not include solid state. Go with high efficiency speakers and low powered tubes - don't look back.

- Steve O.

Not to hi-jack this lovely thread, but I did some listening today. I brought my speakers into the store--figuring the fewest variables the better. I listened to just the one integrated tube amp, the rogue cronus, and a few solid states: a denon 3808; a creek something-or-other; a Cambridge Audio 840; and a Cary CAI 1.

I listened to the same three track on three different LP's, pen in hand--expecting to hear little or no differences. (I was skeptical.) The Cary exited itself from the runnings quickly with a furious cracking and popping noise, apparently broken. The Denon didn't really compare to the others. I'll save you the poetry of subjective listening you've read so many times before; I just didn't prefer it. Of the solids I preferred the CA 840, even with it's clicking volume knob. Then I went back and forth between the CA 840 and the Rogue, including a few more tracks on SACD. The player was a Cary Audio CD 306; the turntable was a music hall 7.

Sure, I could hear more transparency in the highs and a slightly more controlled bass extension from the Cambridge, but the Rogue was just gorgeous to listen to, particularly in the voices and midtones. Wow. Maybe the Rogue (or all tube amps for that matter) "distorts" more in certain ranges, but I'll be damned if it isn't much more enjoyable to hear my music on. I'm going to bring a couple different CD's into the store tomorrow to see if the slightly muddier bass is a problem for me. I doubt it will.

Thanks for the advice, all! I can't much afford tube separates that I know of (budgeted for 2k), but is there something else I should listen to in a storefront in Chicago before I pull the trigger on the Rogue?

Best of both worlds IMHO does not include solid state. Go with high efficiency speakers and low powered tubes - don't look back

Mmmmm...... No, I think this depends on your personal taste.

It is much easier to find good SS amps than decent high efficiency speakers. Coincident comes now to my memory, but that's all.

The last tube amp I installed at my place was the Cary SLI-80 integrated tube amplifier (80 watts per channel ultralineal or 40 watts per channel in triode mode).

A Mexican dealer let me have the SLI-80 at my place for one week. My MA Gold GR60s sounded delicious with various music at moderate volume levels.

I auditioned the SLI-80 + MA GR60s with great satisfaction until I tried organ music and some latinamerican tunes with Udu and congas.

The bass sounds simply dissapeared! It was really dissapointing. :(

But this frustrating experience just followed my previous experiences with Margules, Jolida and Onix tube amplifiers. :eek:

Mmmmm...... No, I think this depends on your personal taste.

It is much easier to find good SS amps than decent high efficiency speakers. Coincident comes now to my memory, but that's all.

The last tube amp I installed at my place was the Cary SLI-80 integrated tube amplifier (80 watts per channel ultralineal or 40 watts per channel in triode mode).

A Mexican dealer let me have the SLI-80 at my place for one week. My MA Gold GR60s sounded delicious with various music at moderate volume levels.

I auditioned the SLI-80 + MA GR60s with great satisfaction until I tried organ music and some latinamerican tunes with Udu and congas.

The bass sounds simply dissapeared! It was really dissapointing. :(

But this frustrating experience just followed my previous experiences with Margules, Jolida and Onix tube amplifiers. :eek:

I'll have to bring my Virgil Fox albums down to the store along with the trip hop and Burial to see if I can hear what you're talking about.

Best of both worlds IMHO does not include solid state. Go with high efficiency speakers and low powered tubes - don't look back.

- Steve O.


I have 2 hi-fis that use high efficiency speakers with PP tubes, another that uses high efficiency speakers with conventional SS and another that uses bi-amped high efficiency speakers (REAL bi-amped, active crossover) with a conventional SS amp below 1600 and a T-amp above 1600.

I'm loathe to attribute superiority to any one type of amp. Speakers are various Altecs---Nineteens, 9844s, 890Cs and 605As.

My experience with low powered SETs was that even when driving high efficiency speakers they'd run out of gas and compress dynamic peaks. I don't use horn speakers to hear compression, know what I mean?

To further support that comment, I've heard too many great SS and tube amps to say one type is better than the other. Good system integration is what its all about.

I love organ music, but all tube amplifiers I've auditioned do not have juice enough to handle organ's deep bass sounds with enough power. This is particularly noticeable in large rooms. :(

So, in my experience this is the best combo:

Tube preamplifier + SS amplifier. :)

Do you have this?
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n304/jauvry/RR2058s.jpg

The second track can really sing with tubes on top and SS doing the bass.

Not to hi-jack this lovely thread, but I did some listening today. I brought my speakers into the store--figuring the fewest variables the better. I listened to just the one integrated tube amp, the rogue cronus, and a few solid states: a denon 3808; a creek something-or-other; a Cambridge Audio 840; and a Cary CAI 1.

I listened to the same three track on three different LP's, pen in hand--expecting to hear little or no differences. (I was skeptical.) The Cary exited itself from the runnings quickly with a furious cracking and popping noise, apparently broken. The Denon didn't really compare to the others. I'll save you the poetry of subjective listening you've read so many times before; I just didn't prefer it. Of the solids I preferred the CA 840, even with it's clicking volume knob. Then I went back and forth between the CA 840 and the Rogue, including a few more tracks on SACD. The player was a Cary Audio CD 306; the turntable was a music hall 7.

Sure, I could hear more transparency in the highs and a slightly more controlled bass extension from the Cambridge, but the Rogue was just gorgeous to listen to, particularly in the voices and midtones. Wow. Maybe the Rogue (or all tube amps for that matter) "distorts" more in certain ranges, but I'll be damned if it isn't much more enjoyable to hear my music on. I'm going to bring a couple different CD's into the store tomorrow to see if the slightly muddier bass is a problem for me. I doubt it will.

Thanks for the advice, all! I can't much afford tube separates that I know of (budgeted for 2k), but is there something else I should listen to in a storefront in Chicago before I pull the trigger on the Rogue?

I'd say go for the Rogue. There will always be something else to listen to IMO.

If you like testing a tube/SS rig with organ :), one of my favourites is by Dorian Recordings: Jean Guillou at the Great Organ of the TonHalle, Zurich playing "Gnomis" from Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition. Unlike SS amps, Tube amps can't reproduce the 17hz air from the 32ft organ pipes though they do lend great tonality to the higher notes. If wonderful what happens when you get a well integrated tube pre/SS rig or a tube pre/SS/tube amp system working correctly.

Do you have this?


The second track can really sing with tubes on top and SS doing the bass.

Hi javry,

No, I don't have that particular disc.

I have the complete Bach organ works with Helmut Walcha at the organ. I also have several Bach recordings played by Simon Preston, Karl Richter and Ton Koopman. Many of the pieces need power.

But some Dietrich Buxtehude's organ tunes go so low that you reeeeally need power! :eek:

But you're right. Bi-amping is a good solution. You need an electronic crossover though.

Anyway, tube amps are great for moderate volume levels in small to medium sized rooms. But if you like loud music and your room is large, you'd better go with SS amps. ;)

If you like testing a tube/SS rig with organ , one of my favourites is by Dorian Recordings: Jean Guillou at the Great Organ of the TonHalle, Zurich playing "Gnomis" from Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition. Unlike SS amps, Tube amps can't reproduce the 17hz air from the 32ft organ pipes though they do lend great tonality to the higher notes. If wonderful what happens when you get a well integrated tube pre/SS rig or a tube pre/SS/tube amp system working correctly.

Jakeman,

Thanks for the recommendation.

No tube amp can reproduce sounds lower than some 30 Hz with authority, let alone 64 or 32 ft tube organ sounds. ;)

That's correct Jorge. ;) Its why I setup my stereo with horizontal amps. A McIntosh MC2102 tube amp for the midrange/tweeters and a Bryston 4BSST SS amp for the woofers. Like I said earlier if you can get the gain set up properly it does give you the best of both types. Sweet harmonics from the tubes for the midrange/highs and deep tight bass from SS.

Anyway, tube amps are great for moderate volume levels in small to medium sized rooms. But if you like loud music and your room is large, you'd better go with SS amps. ;)


In a bi-amped horn system one can get prodigious volume from tube amps driving 110db sensitivity compression drivers.

In fact moderate power PP tube amps used with full range high efficiency systems, Khorns being such a system many are familiar with, will get louder than most direct radiator speakers will regardless of the power available.

So, in my experience this is the best combo:

Tube preamplifier + SS amplifier. :)

+1
IMO, its the best of both worlds.

Hi javry,

No, I don't have that particular disc.

I have the complete Bach organ works with Helmut Walcha at the organ. I also have several Bach recordings played by Simon Preston, Karl Richter and Ton Koopman. Many of the pieces need power.

But some Dietrich Buxtehude's organ tunes go so low that you reeeeally need power! :eek:

But you're right. Bi-amping is a good solution. You need an electronic crossover though.

Anyway, tube amps are great for moderate volume levels in small to medium sized rooms. But if you like loud music and your room is large, you'd better go with SS amps. ;)

What I found with tubes in particular and espesially with organ music is that dynamics are way superior to SS. I was using a set of CJ MV75A1s a few years back with a Luxman CL-32 Pre amp [Amperex tubes; 6DG8s I believe]. My favorite was Saint-Saens' Symphony No. 3 [Michael Murray: Telarc 0634] and the Reference Recording in the last post. The passage in Saint Saens' about 15 minutes into the second movement would give me goose bumps everytime I listened to it. After a while, I replaced the Luxman with a Krell KBL and dynamics and that fat sound that you can only get from tubes just went out the window. Sure, I got more clerity in the bass but lost my goose bumps. As far as xovers are concerned, I used a couple of Bryston 10Bs. In fact, I still have 'em....for when I go that way again. If you're into organ music, I still recommend tubes for everything but the bass. My system was was tri amped but I enjoyed it a little better I think when it was bi amped.

I'm a integrated fan, using a Italian Unico with nos Mullards. Paired with my Spendor speakers, I'm very happy with the sound.

Another tube lover here. I've got for my 2 channel stereo an Antique Sound Labs Orchid 2A3 SET integrated with Omega Loudspeakers TS1-R. I'll also set up the integrated amp as an amp to my Bottlehead Foreplay II and play the Squeezebox or vinyl.

another vinyl lover. cool.

I finally settled on Rogue Audio monoblocks; it's everything around them that's shifting. I'm loving the transparency and soundstage of the tube amps.

I am running a V-cap Modded Balanced Audio Technology VK 60 tube power amplifier with a SAS Audio Labs 10A tube preamplifier driving a pair of Scanspeak driver equipped 90 db Odyssey Lorelei two way loudspeakers. i am using a HRAM stage 3+ Jolida JD 100 CD player with a Tent Labs masterclock for the source. Tubes Rule!:).....WCW III

I have an Audio Research D-70 from the mid-80's. I haven't used it for years, though. I also have a SP-10 pre-amp.

Good thread!

Tim

I am running a V-cap Modded Balanced Audio Technology VK 60 tube power amplifier with a SAS Audio Labs 10A tube preamplifier driving a pair of Scanspeak driver equipped 90 db Odyssey Lorelei two way loudspeakers. i am using a HRAM stage 3+ Jolida JD 100 CD player with a Tent Labs masterclock for the source. Tubes Rule!:).....WCW III

sounds like an exciting setup. So what do you listen to mostly ?

I finally settled on Rogue Audio monoblocks; it's everything around them that's shifting. I'm loving the transparency and soundstage of the tube amps.

I remember when these amps first came on the scene. Are they made in Pittsburgh?

I have an Audio Research D-70 from the mid-80's. I haven't used it for years, though. I also have a SP-10 pre-amp.

Good thread!

Tim

I had an opportunity to borrow one of those puppies a few years ago. I took it over to a friends house and we spent the weekend listening to a whole lot of jazz. I know we did "Jazz at The Pawnshop" and I think we also listened to some old Kai Winding /JJ Johnson recordings as well some reference recordings stuff. If I remember correctly, I liked this amp a lot. It was very tubey and typical of the AR signature sound. As much as I liked it, I bought a set of BAT VK-120s instead though.

I remember when these amps first came on the scene. Are they made in Pittsburgh?

They are made up in the NE corner of the state, Brodheadsville, Pa

I too own the M-150 MonoBlocks and am quite satisfied.

They are made up in the NE corner of the state, Brodheadsville, Pa

I too own the M-150 MonoBlocks and am quite satisfied.

Thanks, I didn't want to go to the basement and look on the boxes.

I'm new to this forum, came here to help out finishing my HT setup.but i'm glad there are some 2 channel tube and vinyl lovers here also...my set up for 2 channel is Fi 2A3 monos,basis 1400 table,hovland preamp-original one without the remote-meridian 500 transport,563 DAC w/24bitupgrades,all playing thru infinity compisition speakers-96db efficiant. these speakers work well with SE amps because they hav a powered 12" that handles all the bass and they are efficiant...thats all for now

sounds like an exciting setup. So what do you listen to mostly ?
I listen to everything except for Rap and Country. Acoustic music with Piano or Guitar is my favorite material.thanks ....WCW III

I'm new to this forum, came here to help out finishing my HT setup.but i'm glad there are some 2 channel tube and vinyl lovers here also...my set up for 2 channel is Fi 2A3 monos,basis 1400 table,hovland preamp-original one without the remote-meridian 500 transport,563 DAC w/24bitupgrades,all playing thru infinity compisition speakers-96db efficiant. these speakers work well with SE amps because they hav a powered 12" that handles all the bass and they are efficiant...thats all for now

I had an opportunity to listent to a Hovland HP-100 a few years ago. I thought it sounded great. In fact, I'm thinking seriously about going with one when I get back to tubes and vinyl.

great preamp to hav best i've owned,comes with built in phono section if you need it. I am thinking about getting a step up transformer so i can use lower output carts.

I've go to ask everyone's input for this one. I have a dead (blown pots?) Counterpoint SA-7 preamp which I believe used 6DJ8s.

Right now, I am running an Ah! Njoe Tjoeb 4000 CD (uses a pair of 6922s/7308s) connected to 2 Counterpoint SA-12s (rebuilt by Altavista audio - used to be 4 12AX7s each now only a pair of 6SN7s each) running in monoblock. The Ah! has volume control and is the only input into the system (no turntable though I have a few boxes of vinyl).

Would I gain anything by rebuilding the SA-7 and having the volume controlled by that?

I've go to ask everyone's input for this one. I have a dead (blown pots?) Counterpoint SA-7 preamp which I believe used 6DJ8s.

Right now, I am running an Ah! Njoe Tjoeb 4000 CD (uses a pair of 6922s/7308s) connected to 2 Counterpoint SA-12s (rebuilt by Altavista audio - used to be 4 12AX7s each now only a pair of 6SN7s each) running in monoblock. The Ah! has volume control and is the only input into the system (no turntable though I have a few boxes of vinyl).

Would I gain anything by rebuilding the SA-7 and having the volume controlled by that?

Blown pots? What is that? Do you mean the volume pot, which was a common failure on the Counterpoints? If so, just replace it, and do yourself a favor and spring for the Noble pots.

What you would add, is some tube warmth, a fatness in the midrange and some 3 dimensionality that the Counterpoints did well. You would also add some noise, lose some detail and soften the bass slam, other sounds of the Counterpoint preamps.

I had a 3.1 in my closet as a backup preamp for 15 years and just sold it a month or two ago. Took it out and listened to it for a couple weeks to make sure it worked well before selling. I compared it to the 7 back in the day and remember that the 3 was a good bit better than the 7 so I would suppose these observations would be amplified.

If I didn't need switching capability, I probably wouldn't bother unless I wanted more tube sound. You might want that with the upgrade as the new tubes aren't as warm sounding as the 12AX7's, but that's an opinion call.

what's a good tube amp for 2.0 under $500?

Another tube lover here. I have a Shanling CDT-1000se CD player hooked up to a Raysonic SP-120 tube amp (50 watts a side) and I love the music this duo produces.

Also part of this combo is a Pro-Ject Debut III (red) turntable (with Pro-Ject PHONOBOX II / USB) and ZUNE MP3 player, which is useful for it's built in FM tuner running through the Raysonic.

My speakers are a pair of X-LS series (mahogany) bookshelf monitors from AV123. There's hardly a night that goes by that I'm not listening to (and loving) my set up.

-Mike

What I haven't read is one of the biggest pluses of a good tube amp. And that is tube rolling.
The different sounds and effects you can achieve by swapping out tubes can be very rewarding.
Of course you do have to do your homework , and finding the right tubes that best suit your tastes can be very hard and a crap shot.

What I have for my tube amp is a Woo WA6SE maxxed.
This is a headphone tube amp. I use my Oppo BD-83 (also is a good SACD player) as my source, and a pair of Sennheiser HD-800.

Right now I am using a pair of GE 6EW7 (circa 50s/60s) big bottle power/driver tubes. And a Sophia Princess Mesh Plate 274B rectifier tube.
However I do have some RCA 6EW7 (circa 50s/60s) big bottle's and a EML 274B rectifier tube on the way.

The quality of the audio is breath taking, as long as the recording is very good.

ss

Particularly with Chinese tube amps as the stock tubes can sometimes leave a lot to be desired. My Little Dot Mk III really changed after I rolled out the stock tubes for some M8100's.

...and a EML 274B rectifier tube on the way.
Can't speak to the 274B, but I've an EML 5U4G meshplate rectifier, and that's an extraordinarily nice tube. Nice to see that at least some new tubes can compete with NOS. Tech Tubes' new 12AX7 is another example. Everything else except KT88 power tubes is carefully select NOS, and it's been fun, if not inexpensive.

Particularly with Chinese tube amps as the stock tubes can sometimes leave a lot to be desired. My Little Dot Mk III really changed after I rolled out the stock tubes for some M8100's.

Yes I got those tubes in my LD MKIV se. ;)

btw imo if you are going the Chinese route then by all means go with the LD, there customer service is second to none.

Can't speak to the 274B, but I've an EML 5U4G meshplate rectifier, and that's an extraordinarily nice tube. Nice to see that at least some new tubes can compete with NOS. Tech Tubes' new 12AX7 is another example. Everything else except KT88 power tubes is carefully select NOS, and it's been fun, if not inexpensive.

I don't have the EML 274B mesh plate rectifier yet, should be here in a few days.
It should be intresting to hear what differant audio quality's this tube takes on over my Sophia Princess Mesh Plate 274B rectifier.

I also have about 14 NOS on the way. The big bottle double triodes that i like are getting harder to come by.

ss

Yes I got those tubes in my LD MKIV se. ;)


Is there an emoticon for seething jealousy? :D

btw imo if you are going the Chinese route then by all means go with the LD, there customer service is second to none.


I agree. The only thing I have found with the LDs is that they are susceptible to interference from things like WiFi and cordless phones. I had to build a small cage for mine.

I built a mono 6B4G push pull amp that I like a lot.
It features:

6SN7 input stage

Interstage transformer phase splitting

Fixed Bias

Choke input supply


It probably puts out close to 20W's.

I like tubes a lot!

what's a good tube amp for 2.0 under $500?

I'm using a Bottlehead SEX amp, which is a nice kit, goes for under $500. Great instructions and support.

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/bottlehead/bbs.html

But you need high efficiency speakers with it, I'm using Tektons model 6.5s, sitting on two Energy ESW 8" subs (with built-in 200 wpc amps, ok, so not totally tubed :) )

Hi,
I use Audio Research ref600mkIII,and no SS comes close.
Tubes rule.
MY SYSTEM.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1136036

Particularly with Chinese tube amps as the stock tubes can sometimes leave a lot to be desired. My Little Dot Mk III really changed after I rolled out the stock tubes for some M8100's.

I thought most of the tubes came out of China anyway. From what I was told, the old RCA plant that went to Ugo got trashed, so Russian or Chinese were about all that was left.

Having a dirt cheap 10-watter on order, if it seems like it will solve the issue I have, cleaner tunes are an easy upgrade. I plan on drawing the circuit out to see where they left out or used garbage parts. Pretty easy to tweak.

I thought most of the tubes came out of China anyway. From what I was told, the old RCA plant that went to Ugo got trashed, so Russian or Chinese were about all that was left.

Correct. All the American/British/German are NOS (New -as in unused- Old Stock). Let's hope the Chinese manufacturing improves before stock runs out.


Having a dirt cheap 10-watter on order, if it seems like it will solve the issue I have, cleaner tunes are an easy upgrade. I plan on drawing the circuit out to see where they left out or used garbage parts. Pretty easy to tweak.


One of the best things about these amps, IMHO. Great for us engineers that no longer practice. ;) Although I have to say that, at least on the Little Dot, pretty much everything seems rather professional and good quality.

One thing that I have noticed about tube amps is the combination of soft-clipping and injected harmonic distortion makes poorly encoded mp3s a lot more palatable.

Don't forget the Czech Republic. Emission Labs (http://www.emissionlabs.com/html/products/products.htm)(EML) and KR Audio (http://www.kraudio.com/) continue to make superb tubes.

Unfortunately, Blackburn Microtech, who produced the Tech Tube Valves in the original Mullard Blackburn facility, recently went into administration (http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/blackburn/4642860.Historic_Blackburn_firm_in_administration/).

I have been looking at a YAQIN MC-10L 50wx2 to run my B&W 805s 89db speakers with a Dennon 2801CI as the pre-pro using one of it's assingable channels for music only from my CD. I have heard some good things about these pups and figure they have the juice to do the job.

Don't forget the Czech Republic. Emission Labs (http://www.emissionlabs.com/html/products/products.htm)(EML) and KR Audio (http://www.kraudio.com/) continue to make superb tubes.

Unfortunately, Blackburn Microtech, who produced the Tech Tube Valves in the original Mullard Blackburn facility, recently went into administration (http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/blackburn/4642860.Historic_Blackburn_firm_in_administration/).

Yes the EML makes some interesting mesh plate tubes. I just got a EML 274B real mesh plate (hand blown) rectifier tube. I have been doing a lot of tube rolling with my power/drive tubes, tiring to get a good match with my EML.
What I have found so far with the EML 274B mesh plate is that it may be better than the Sophia Princess Mesh Plate 274B rectifier (made in the USA) for HQ movie sound tracks that have been downmixed from 5.1/7.1ch to 2ch. The soundstage with the EML 274B mesh is the best i have ever heard. Also the bass impact is also the best, matched with a pair of circa 60s nos RCA big bottle 6ew7.

And if you are looking for a very nice headphone amp i would look at the Woo amps, made in NY USA. I am running a Woo headphone amp that has a output of 80 amps.

ss

About 18 months ago I bought a used Conrad-Johnson PV-11 preamp for my 2-channel sources and the front mains of my combo HT/2-channel rig. Made quite a difference in an otherwise all SS system, with a smoother presentation and wider soundstage and especially increased low-level detail vs. my Sherwood/Newcastle P-965. I am seriously considering a tube CD player next. Still a little reluctant on tube amps - higher maintenance and risk. Also, my Odyssey Audio HT3 is pretty smooth for SS.

I love BAT

I love BAT

Hi i already have a pv12 cj and shanling cdt200 tube cd player and I recommend to you vtl for power amplifier their sound is open powerfull and wide

What I haven't read is one of the biggest pluses of a good tube amp. And that is tube rolling.
The different sounds and effects you can achieve by swapping out tubes can be very rewarding.
Of course you do have to do your homework , and finding the right tubes that best suit your tastes can be very hard and a crap shot.

What I have for my tube amp is a Woo WA6SE maxxed.
This is a headphone tube amp. I use my Oppo BD-83 (also is a good SACD player) as my source, and a pair of Sennheiser HD-800.

Right now I am using a pair of GE 6EW7 (circa 50s/60s) big bottle power/driver tubes. And a Sophia Princess Mesh Plate 274B rectifier tube.
However I do have some RCA 6EW7 (circa 50s/60s) big bottle's and a EML 274B rectifier tube on the way.



The quality of the audio is breath taking, as long as the recording is very good.

ss

I'm betting "Jazz at the Pawnshop" sounds very good on your system?

Hi i already have a pv12 cj and shanling cdt200 tube cd player and I recommend to you vtl for power amplifier their sound is open powerfull and wide

Thanks for that. I love BAT but I also love VTL. It's an option I've explored on several occasions. In fact, I love tubes generally....if that helps:)

tubes,vinyl and 'stats here

what's a good tube amp for 2.0 under $500?
MiniWatt N3 $378 plus shipping. One 12AX7 driver with a pair of EL84 triodes.

A whole three-and-a-half watts of raging power per side! Sorry, got carried away. It's actually a marvelous desktop set that can sound quite nice with efficient speakers. I used the Hsu HB-Mk2 with it and is very nice.

http://www.miniwatt.com.hk/amplifiers/miniwatt-n3.html