From Macrumors (http://www.macrumors.com):

The next-generation Mac Mini will sport Core 2 Duo processors at 1.83, 2.0 (Standard models) and 2.16GHz (Gamer's Model), Intel GMA965 integrated (standard models) or ATi Radeon X1800 dedicated (Gamer's Model) graphics, support for up to 5GB of RAM (two 512MB on-board chips, plus two full-sized DIMM slots capable of supporting up to 2GB of DDR2-667 SDRAM each), new faster Superdrives, 802.11n wireless, and in the Gamer's Model, support for two displays (Dual Link DVI and Mini-DVI ports)...

However as of 6/29 @ 4:30 a.m. PST, the link to the full article at the site is broken...

Meanwhile, at an in-house Apple event for all hands yesterday, Steve Jobs announced that each employee with one year of service or more would receive a free, 8GB iPhone (as of September 2006, Apple listed 17,787 full-time employees). At this same event, Jobs reportedly stated that new products in the pipeline are "...off the charts..."

Could the rumor above be true? To be sure, now that the iPhone has been released (as of 6 p.m. EST today), we probably will see Apple's focus gradually return back to the Mac and the OS X Leopard rollout...

If it sounds TGTBT it probably is. ;)

It seems like a machine with those specs (specifically 2 more DIMM slots and a slot for a graphics card) won't fit in the mini enclosure. That sounds more like a mini-tower than a mini.

I agree, but then I also believe that Apple has to be working on something to attract young gamers into the fold. With the release of the iPhone (and prior to that, the Apple TV), it now is clear that Jobs is going for Microsoft's jugular, and that he is intent upon delivering a complete ecosystem of OS X-based products, ranging from a portable handheld device (the iPhone) to all the way up to servers (Xserve).

In this context, machines with a focus on gamers do seem more than just plausible, they seem likely. I also agree that this sounds like a box with a larger enclosure (mini tower) which would appeal to young PC users...though how about a mini home theater and and mini Xserve?

I hope this thread isn't going to get as silly as the last Mini rumour thread -- the one that the Mini was being discontinued.

Looking around, I found a second-hand report on the meeting at Apple on the Ars Technica (http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/06/28/internal-apple-stevenote-iphone-ipods-with-os-x-and-off-the-charts-macs-in-the-pipeline) site. They write: "...Steve addressed by saying that they have the "best Macs" in the new product pipeline ever right now, and that the stuff coming out in the next year is "off the charts.""

OK, that's marketing talk, but he is talking about new Macs specifically (not iPods). I would be really surprised if Apple went after gamers because 1. they are now primarily a a/v company and 2. he would have to rely on other companies to make games compatible with OS X. I think it is far more likely that Apple will extend its a/v products.

Also, assuming Apple wants to get into the movie business via iTunes store and AppleTV (and I don't think anyone can doubt that), it would make a lot of sense to make more powerful a/v computers.

We don't know what form these new Mac products will take. I would be pretty optimistic that there would be something suitable for the living room because right now all they have are the Mini and AppleTV and the AppleTV, according to Jobs, is not in the Mac (computer) area.

OK, that's marketing talk, but he is talking about new Macs specifically (not iPods). I would be really surprised if Apple went after gamers because 1. they are now primarily a a/v company and 2. he would have to rely on other companies to make games compatible with OS X. I think it is far more likely that Apple will extend its a/v products.

Also, assuming Apple wants to get into the movie business via iTunes store and AppleTV (and I don't think anyone can doubt that), it would make a lot of sense to make more powerful a/v computers.

We don't know what form these new Mac products will take. I would be pretty optimistic that there would be something suitable for the living room because right now all they have are the Mini and AppleTV and the AppleTV, according to Jobs, is not in the Mac (computer) area.
I also agree that it's probably too good to be true. Would I jump all over the mini Gamer model, Heck Yes! I just won't hold my breath.

Besides, there's too many WTFs?!?!?! with the rumored specs. Why would they solder on 2x 512MB chips and have 2x slots? Wouldn't it just make more sense to have 2x slots and allow for 4GB? Or solder on 1x1GB with 2x slots? Doesn't make sense.

As for Apple not catering to gamers, there was that announcement with EA at WWDC last month. I could see a surge of gamers coming over if Apple were to make a fast, cheap, headless Mac.

ft

Besides, there's too many WTFs?!?!?! with the rumored specs. Why would they solder on 2x 512MB chips and have 2x slots? Wouldn't it just make more sense to have 2x slots and allow for 4GB? Or solder on 1x1GB with 2x slots? Doesn't make sense.

As for Apple not catering to gamers, there was that announcement with EA at WWDC last month. I could see a surge of gamers coming over if Apple were to make a fast, cheap, headless Mac.

ft

The specs are pure rumour. However, I am more optimistic now that Apple will have some great new machines with specs we don't know now.

Apple has been in business for 30 years and I don't think they have ever appealed to gamers in that time. Why would they start now when they are so focused on a/v and multimedia?

Besides, there's too many WTFs?!?!?! with the rumored specs.

You mean beside that fact that we can't even read the actual rumor?

I hope this thread isn't going to get as silly as the last Mini rumour thread -- the one that the Mini was being discontinued.

Well, let's not re-write history: very few who participate in this forum semi-regularly felt that thread was silly at all. There's no AVS policy with respect to discussing "rumours," nor any litmus test about which articles or bloggers or websites are deemed worthy of sparking a discussion. That rumor made sense to many of us and explained some potentially troubling behavior.

Fact is, we're STILL waiting on a Mac mini upgrade, plenty of folks are still trying to decide whether to wait some more, get an aTV or consider something else. The mini hasn't been updated by Apple since September 2006, still ships with a by-now-very-old core duo and "g" wireless, though a lot of us here have done our own upgrades, swapping in a core 2 duo, an "n" wireless card, a better hard drive, etc.

Instead of renewing its commitment to "fast, cheap, headless" Macs, Apple has elevated its indifference to new levels of laissez-faire.

If it sounds TGTBT it probably is.

Wise words.

I'll file this under TGTBT as well as all the supposed dvd player improvements others have been mentioning around the forum. But further, if this supposition of yours is correct:

Also, assuming Apple wants to get into the movie business via iTunes store and AppleTV (and I don't think anyone can doubt that), it would make a lot of sense to make more powerful a/v computers.

would you also agree that these more powerful next-gen minis will be significantly more expensive than the previous-gen minis? If so, that means even the cheapest next-gen mini wouldn't compete on price with the aTV at all--unlike the current forlorn mini which at least still is in the ballpark at $500-600 as refurbs--and--painful as it may seem in hindsight, that development would lend credence to those rumormongers who suspected that:

1) the aTV, since rather embarrassingly labeled a "hobby," was then and still is selling poorly;
2) Apple wouldn't risk hindering sales of the aTV even more by improving the mini in the most modest of ways; and/or
3) Apple was going to discontinue the mini (and its affordable price point category) entirely, so why bother upgrading it in the meantime?

What might have seemed silly speculation to some, just may turn out to be correct strategic analysis after all.


We don't know what form these new Mac products will take. I would be pretty optimistic that there would be something suitable for the living room because right now all they have are the Mini and AppleTV and the AppleTV, according to Jobs, is not in the Mac (computer) area.

Lest anyone forget, if (like me) you just can't stomach the disrespect Apple has shown toward potential mini customers, the Macbook remains a wonderful living room device: very quiet, versatile, easily networked, it's one of two certified "Apple favored" models (along with the iMac) so unlike the mini you can always count on it being refreshed, being reasonably good value and being affordable, that also means older models will consistently be available at discounted pricing--and ALL of these older models (including, by the way, the original June 2006 Macbook) are superior to the current mini, it's much easier to swap a better hard drive and more RAM into a Macbook than a mini, and it'll retain better re-sale value than a headless mini because as we all know, laptops are the bomb, taking over the world.

If you can't lay it flat in your theater, stick it vertically in one of these cool new stands:

http://www.powersupportusa.com/products/macbook_dockingstand.php

align all your cables rearward, dvd slot forward, and you're all set.

Like everyone else, I hope for something headless and "off the charts" that we can co-opt for the home theater. Problem is, if history is any guide, the odds of these features and capabilities filtering down to affordable consumer price points are slim.

The specs are pure rumour. However, I am more optimistic now that Apple will have some great new machines with specs we don't know now.

Apple has been in business for 30 years and I don't think they have ever appealed to gamers in that time. Why would they start now when they are so focused on a/v and multimedia?
Because they can get games ported over to the Mac using CIDER way more efficiently than in the past.

I'll take the usual wait and see route...

Chef, no one will argue that Apple has kept up with the technology in the Mac line over the last year or so (with some exceptions). I would assume this may be because of the focus on the iPhone and ATV. According to the article, Steve sees the iPhone and the ATV as whole new product categories for Apple and I can imagine he has put all his attention there.

Before the Mini (G4) came out, there was no Apple that could go in a living room. When the G4 Mini came out, people complained about the lack of a digital audio output.

I know it is discouraging that we seem to come last after all the other things, but it seems that Steve is finally seeing that it's time to get back to the Macs and I am hopeful that he will pleasantly surprise us.

From Macrumors (http://wwww.macrumors.com):

The next-generation Mac Mini will sport Core 2 Duo processors at 1.83, 2.0 (Standard models) and 2.16GHz (Gamer's Model), Intel GMA965 integrated (standard models) or ATi Radeon X1800 dedicated (Gamer's Model) graphics, support for up to 5GB of RAM (two 512MB on-board chips, plus two full-sized DIMM slots capable of supporting up to 2GB of DDR2-667 SDRAM each), new faster Superdrives, 802.11n wireless, and in the Gamer's Model, support for two displays (Dual Link DVI and Mini-DVI ports)...

However as of 6/29 @ 4:30 a.m. PST, the link to the full article at the site is broken...

I am willing to beleive the substance of the rumor. Apple would sell a ton -- what better reason to release a popular product?

The Macrumors thing is bizarre though -- I have never known them to pull a story without any explanation. Did someone hack into their site?

And your link is broken, you have one W too many.

Unless the mini changes form factor, I don't see them going back to DDR RAM. And I'm not buying the notion of a "gamers model", but time will tell.

Are we allowed to discuss rumors again??

It sure would be nice if Apple came out with a computer that would work great as either a HTPC or a desktop. As a long time Windows user I have been interested in trying a Mac, but they keep loosing my business because they do not offer a computer that fits my needs.

Last winter I replaced my desktop computer. I looked at a Mac but they do not have a nice desktop. I don't like the iMac because I already own a really nice 24 inch LCD and it has very limited upgrade potential. The Mac Pro is nice if you need a very expensive workstation, like most people I do not. So I bought another Windows machine.

Now I want a HTPC. Again I am looking at Mac and again I don't like the choices. Mac Mini is a perfect example of form over function. The hard drive is to small to be of much use when storing 500+ Lossless CD's, the video card and CPU are both bottom feeders by all current standards.

A well designed headless Mac desktop (small/medium sized) would be a product that I would buy. This would allow for all current dual and quad core cpu's, mid to high end video cards, standard hard drives (now up to 1TB), 802.11N, etc. Unfortunately this does not currently exist and probably will not until long after I have built a Windows Vista HTPC.

Apple has been doing a good job of increasing interest in the Mac OS. But the lack of good hardware choices are probably turning most folks back to Windows. Maybe in 4 or so years when I am replacing my new Windows computers I will look at Mac again, or maybe not:-(

A well designed headless Mac desktop (small/medium sized) would be a product that I would buy.

Me too.

Apple has been doing a good job of increasing interest in the Mac OS. But the lack of good hardware choices are probably turning most folks back to Windows. Maybe in 4 or so years when I am replacing my new Windows computers I will look at Mac again, or maybe not:-(

I'm not sure that Apple's offering of hardware is necessarily lacking. Laptops are the form factor of the present and I expect that trend to continue until desktops are scarce. Mobile computing is simply where it's at these days. Home consumers typically want something that's more "device" oriented and that fits the iMac. The mac mini makes a perfect little computer for many others, after all it's just a desktop version of a laptop. That's not to say that the mini doesn't need to be updated because it surely needs Core2 Duo's. That's also not to say that Apple doesn't have a hole in their product offering. The question is how big of a hole? Apple must have the market research to back up their current position.

I may be in the minority, but I thought the Mini was a great product line, and a Macbook is major overkill as far as a substitute goes. Sales don't bare my point of view out though, AFAIK the Mini didn't sell very well.

I may be in the minority, but I thought the Mini was a great product line, and a Macbook is major overkill as far as a substitute goes. Sales don't bare my point of view out though, AFAIK the Mini didn't sell very well.

This is the first that I've heard it didn't sell well. Do you have any sources to confirm this? It may not be selling well now because it is running last years hardware. It does seem like Apple wants to abandon the Mini and push everyone into AppleTV. I know I may be in the wrong forum to say this but I don't like the closed aspect of AppleTV (unless you hack it). I'd rather see the openness of a Mini with some juice anyday. Apple has lost me as a customer in the short run twice now. No Mini with the juice I'm looking for (like the Broadcom chip or ATI's 2400HD and a C2D) and they picked AT&T for service on the iPhone (horrible in my area). The AT&T thing is not their fault as they did try to make a deal with Verizon.

My Mini is already 2GHz Core 2 Duo.

Mark

My Mini is already 2GHz Core 2 Duo.

Nice that they can be upgraded, huh?

It sure would be nice if Apple came out with a computer that would work great as either a HTPC or a desktop

Apple already has; at the moment, however, the form factor that's the better value is a laptop, not the mini. It also helps to think in terms of hubs, extenders and networked storage over gigabit rather than an all-in-one headless device.

I may be in the minority, but I thought the Mini was a great product line

Me, too. We're all eager to see if there will be a "next-gen" mini.

and a Macbook is major overkill as far as a substitute goes

Why do you say that? Macbooks often could be had for little more than the cost of a mini, my core duo was $649, they've always had similar or better specs, and its built-in LCD, typically redundant closed-lid in the HT, just means more versatility and resale value down the road.

Of course, the big problem with any discussion of this type is how one defines a "great" HTPC, and that's usually pliable enough to fit various preconceived notions going in, pro or con.

dwh131, you're guilty of bringing some preconceived notions of what constitutes an HTPC with you, and many here agree with you: you want an even bigger headless Mac and would rather not adopt an extender or hub strategy with the existing product line. That breaks little new ground here--long time Windows-using types have endlessly repeated some variation of the "but I can't upgrade the video card or I can't add a better this or that internally" for years. Thank you for not also going down the specious "Macs are SO much more expensive" cost comparison road.

But the lack of good hardware choices are probably turning most folks back to Windows.

I've read of very few who live with OS X and a Mac for a while who then go back to Windows, let alone "most folks." The opposite is the norm, the "I can't believe I didn't switch to Mac sooner." Can you link to any support for your claim?

Or by "most folks" do you mean most folks like yourself--an advanced PC user, yet someone with no hands-on OS X or Mac experience, who actually uses his Windows Media PC as a Windows HTPC in the living room? If so, you're in a very, very small percentage of the total consumer base--you're conditioned to think and work a certain way and, frankly, Apple has shown little interest in attracting you and probably never will.

With the aTV, and the "not-updated in the past year" mini, Apple has shown little interest in retaining those few of us who already have a Mac in the living room as well.

Apple also doesn't compete in the lowest-end market segment, so there is an initial, higher entry cost "to go Mac," which does keep some other folks on Windows and cheap PCs. That's what the mini was initially designed to address--it's just us A/V types started sticking it in places Apple wasn't necessarily concerned about going, and Apple has raised its price point as it's boosted performance and capabilities. As most of us around here can attest, even the under-powered minis can serve very well in a home theater--how well just depends on your needs. And your HT needs, dwh131, are what exactly, which are so demanding that no affordable Mac can adequately handle? You've revealed what you want as far as form, but not what you expect to do.

Mac Mini is a perfect example of form over function. The hard drive is to small to be of much use when storing 500+ Lossless CD's, the video card and CPU are both bottom feeders by all current standards.

Good thing these days there's little need to store any content--let alone 500 lossless CDs--internally on your boot drive; indeed, it's often more advisable not to, for purposes of improved redundancy, performance and network access.

Let's look a little closer at the supposedly form over function mini, realizing that most folks who use the phrase "form over function" don't actually appreciate the role "form" plays in their lives.

Powerful enough to play back high def, check; digital audio, check; gigabit, check; firewire, well, Windows/PC type usually skip over firewire, so USB 2, check; wireless n, check, if you swap a Mac Pro n card in; a faster more powerful less bottom-feeding C2D processor, check, if you put it in yourself; impeccably quiet, check, though that doesn't seem as important to some; impeccably small, check, though that doesn't seem so important to some; faster boot drive, check, install a 2.5" 7200 or boot off a fast 3.5" external; and on and on.

So, it turns out the mini can do the HTPC as extender thing, as well as the HTPC as networked hub thing. It's just that by the time you upgrade it yourself--since Apple hasn't seen fit to care to--you'd have spent quite a bit of money. That tips the value quotient back over to the Macbook. What can't the mini or Macbook overcome?

the video card

That leaves us with the admittedly bottom-dwelling GMA950--no doubt that's a deal-breaker, even for some of the Mac faithful--and why many here hope to see the mini and Macbook bumped up to something better--shame on Apple for sticking with this for so long. The chances of its successor not also being integrated, though, are slim. But, gaming aside, integrated isn't as inadequate in the real world HT as some who haven't actually used a mini or Macbook might suspect. (And certainly not if you're primarily interested in watching content on a wee 24" LCD.)

A well designed headless Mac desktop (small/medium sized) would be a product that I would buy. This would allow for all current dual and quad core cpu's, mid to high end video cards, standard hard drives (now up to 1TB), 802.11N, etc. Unfortunately this does not currently exist and probably will not until long after I have built a Windows Vista HTPC.

Don't forget a few open expansion slots, eSATA, an extra hard drive bay, supported internal TV tuner cards, support for HD-DVD and Blu-ray somehow...and a pink pony.

See 4000 posts or so on the mythical xMac issue here:

http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8300945231/m/208009973831

This is the first that I've heard it didn't sell well. Do you have any sources to confirm this? It may not be selling well now because it is running last years hardware. It does seem like Apple wants to abandon the Mini and push everyone into AppleTV.

I don't have any sources, just tidbits I've read over the last couple of years. To be more precise, I get the feeling that Mini sales are actually pretty decent, especially since they switched to Intel, but I think Apple had much higher expectations when they first launched the line.

Also, I've read that the margins are lower on the Mini than Apple traditionally likes, which may be why Apple doesn't seem too excited about the Mini.



Why do you say that? Macbooks often could be had for little more than the cost of a mini, my core duo was $649, they've always had similar or better specs, and its built-in LCD, typically redundant closed-lid in the HT, just means more versatility and resale value down the road.


As for the whole overkill thing with Macbook, it looks to me like they're selling for $1099, the Mini is selling for $599. That's about $500 for an LCD screen that won't be seen in my entertainment center. Yes, the Macbook has greater functionality (it's a notebook!) but my intended usuage is as Media Center, so the Macbook along with it's LCD screen and increased price is simply overkill.
I guess I'm not much a resale type of guy, I usually just find another use for my outmoded computers. Something about these Mini's though, I think could have 3-4 of them and still put them all to good use! :)

I currently have the G4 version, but plan to snag another Mini when Apple comes out with the Merom version.

As for the whole overkill thing with Macbook, it looks to me like they're selling for $1099, the Mini is selling for $599. That's about $500 for an LCD screen that won't be seen in my entertainment center. Yes, the Macbook has greater functionality (it's a notebook!) but my intended usuage is as Media Center, so the Macbook along with it's LCD screen and increased price is simply overkill.
I guess I'm not much a resale type of guy, I usually just find another use for my outmoded computers. Something about these Mini's though, I think could have 3-4 of them and still put them all to good use! :)
Well, to be fair, the $1100 Macbook has a Core2Duo, 802.11n, a keyboard and trackpad. The $600 mini still has a CoreDuo, 802.11g ... so take some of the $500 back. Then add a keyboard/mouse for another $100. That makes the Macbook screen maybe a $250 to $300 extra.

Sure, if it's in a HTPC context, that's still an extra expense. But it's certainly not a $500 extra.

ft

I don't get all the macbook pushing going on here when people desire a mini to be a HTPC. It's like someone saying they want a car that gets good gas mileage, yet others are saying, "Just by a motorcycle, they get great gas mileage and can get you from point A to point B".

$1099-$599=$500.
The question isn't about comparable value, like those tired old 'Apples are more expensive than PCs arguments', but instead is a literal point: Macbook is $500 more than Mini.
I don't need the Macbook for my particular purposes, the Mini will fit the bill quite well. You guys are muddying the issue when in reality it's pretty much black and white.

I don't get all the macbook pushing going on here when people desire a mini to be a HTPC. It's like someone saying they want a car that gets good gas mileage, yet others are saying, "Just by a motorcycle, they get great gas mileage and can get you from point A to point B".
Fair enough. I wasn't pushing the Macbook as a HTPC one way or another. Personally, I don't think the Macbook is a good HTPC. But I can see its advantages over the mini.

$1099-$599=$500.
The question isn't about comparable value, like those tired old 'Apples are more expensive than PCs arguments', but instead is a literal point: Macbook is $500 more than Mini.I wasn't refering to the price difference between the MB and the mini. I do realize that straight math gets you a $500 difference. I was replying to this quote ...

As for the whole overkill thing with Macbook, it looks to me like they're selling for $1099, the Mini is selling for $599. That's about $500 for an LCD screen that won't be seen in my entertainment center.You imply that the $500 difference between the MB and mini is just the LCD screen. Which I disagreed with. I understand that you don't want to use the MB as a HTPC, but others reading the post may not realize that the MB has better specs than the mini and may be discouraged in purchasing a MB because they thought the only difference was the LCD.

ft

If we want to talk comparative value of the MacBook over the Mini, it's only fair to remember that currently, the Apple store has refurb MB's (2.0Ghz C2D) for $999. And occasionally has the original 1.83Ghz CD models for $849. Now I know buying refurb isn't on everybody's top list of things to do. But the $849 compares very favorably to the $699 refurb 1.83Ghz CD Mini currently listed there.

We can argue all day about the practicality of using a Mini vs. a MB for htpc use, but many of us find the MB to be a great htpc. And it gives us the option of picking it up and being portable. If I cared enough to want a dedicated htpc, a Mini would be great for me as is. But I, being the value-conscious consumer that I am, will wait to see what card Apple lays down on the table next. In other words, my needs are met with the MB. That isn't to say that I don't have a wish list of improvements to the Mini, or the ultimate xMac-- I do. But time in this forum, and elsewhere has tempered my optimism and enthusiasm with some realism about Apple.

Jobs' video "hobby" will be unveiled in his own sweet time. And we will hate the wait and debate endless rumors and put out wish list after list. Sometime after Leopard, and the iPhone 2.0 goes to Europe, we will begin to hear teasers. appleTV v.10.5 will give us some clues. MacWorld '08 most likely will introduce the actual "year of HD" that Jobs promised us in 2005. That is, MW and WWDC '08 will "introduce" us to AV and/or htpc products/technologies that will ship mid to late '08. Till then, we're stuck debating the utility and value of the Mini vs. the MB for living room htpc use. And how many ways can we do that? Dozens of threads about it already. And dozens more surely to come.

So the question of the day/week/month/year is: will the Mini go the way of the eMac? Quietly forgotten and relegated to the back page of the Apple Store, diminishing in value. Minor price drops intended to clear out backstock? The occasional refurb special to clear out returns. One day to be removed from the Apple availability list with nary a whimper.

Or will it return triumphant, with a new coat of armor, and specs to last out another year? Will it die a quick death, to be replaced by a shiny new model full of AV splendor and Apple promise? Stay tuned for the next episode of: "How the Apple Turns."

We can argue all day about the practicality of using a Mini vs. a MB for htpc use, but many of us find the MB to be a great htpc.

Yeah, who'd have thought this would be viewed as a novel concept?

Right, for those reading along who still don't get it, or who aren't trying to get it--unfortunately it seems cavalierlwt and Count Blah fall into this group--there's no muddying the issue, things aren't (ever) black and white, and why should we stick with list price which few actually pay? Refurbs, like wildrock said, are a great way to go. These are just devices which do a job in the home theater, why not assess the Macbook as device against the mini as device?

It's like someone saying they want a car that gets good gas mileage, yet others are saying, "Just by a motorcycle, they get great gas mileage and can get you from point A to point B"

No, both devices are cars with 4 wheels. You do realize that a mini IS a laptop just without a screen and keyboard, right?

Macbook is $500 more than Mini.

Only if you're stubborn, or have a short memory.

Rather them muddy the waters, a comparison between the two clears the water.

others reading the post may not realize that the MB has better specs than the mini and may be discouraged in purchasing a MB because they thought the only difference was the LCD.

Well said, ft.

The reason we keep talking Macbooks whenever someone bemoans the mini should be self-evident by now: unlike the mini, Macbooks ARE frequently updated and improved. That means previous models (still better than the current mini) are discontinued and can be had at better prices. The cost difference between a Macbook and a mini at any given time--and the performance to value difference--often tips significantly in favor of the Macbook. Last Fall I picked up a refurb 1.83 core duo Macbook from Apple for $649--it originally sold for $1,099--while at the same time the 1.83 mini was selling for $799. Right now, 8 months later, that particular mini is still (woefully) top of its line and available as a refurb for $699, that's still $50 more than I paid 8 months ago. So, at the time, I paid $150 LESS to get a Macbook (with that LCD) instead of the very comparable mini--the only significant difference being the mini had a superdrive, which I didn't need and, since it was a Matshita, it sucked anyway.

There are often deals like this, as wildrock mentioned there were $849 combo drive C2D Macbooks with "n" which would be tempting me if I wasn't already perfectly happy on an Intel Mac while I wait for Leopard. So trotting out a statement like $500 more for the Macbook is clearly incorrect, said with little nuance. With the $150 less I paid for the same 1.83 core duo power, I added a few things to the Macbook, so I'll factor those costs in: I put a Mac Pro "n" card in myself, that cost me $45; upgraded to 2 GB RAM, that cost me $90; and swapped in a larger 160 GB drive for the stock 60GB 5400rpm, that was another $90.

That's $874 for my Macbook HTPC with 2GB RAM, a 160GB HD, and "n" wireless. Needless to say, it rocks.

The current mini, which many would say also requires similar upgrades, even factoring in price drops on RAM and components, would STILL be more expensive.

Now, Count Blah, ye who desire the mini, and ONLY the mini, to be an HTPC--what would it cost you to roll your own new and improved C2D with "n" wireless? At the moment $599 or $699 plus $45 plus $299 for a 2.0 C2D--that's over a grand either way without boosting the RAM--and voids your warranty, to boot.

Kinda puts the refurb 2.0 GHz Core 2 Duo Macbook with 1 GB RAM, Superdrive, built-in iSight and "n" for $999 in a slightly better perspective, doesn't it? Ostensibly, that means a "free" LCD. I'd wait though, you'll see even better C2D Macbook prices soon.

And what about the $519 mini that shows up occasionally as a refurb--after all, though significantly inferior--it is actually "close" to $500 less than the current $999 Macbook refurb?

I wasn't willing to take a chance on the $519 refurb core duo mini, though many here did and it was a good value for its time, especially if you hadn't yet gotten an Intel Mac; it was only a 1.66, and because too many people I trusted who had the 1.66 said it wasn't 100% glitch-free when it came to high def playback under load, I resisted. But let's use the 1.66 as a comparison which was frequently available at $519--that's still only $130 less than the 1.83 Macbook I bought.

No doubt who got the better machine, the better HTPC and the better value, between those two. Any Mac HTPC type who isn't close-minded should realize that as well.

Personally, I don't think the Macbook is a good HTPC.

I'm still a little mystified by this.

In the interest of clearing, rather than muddying the waters, what happens if you stick a Macbook upright in a stand like this:

http://www.powersupportusa.com/products/macbook_dockingstand.php

right next to your HDTV all cables stick out the back just like with a mini, the optical drive slot is forward, just like the mini, and the remote or bluetooth mouse still works just fine, just like the mini. (By the way, if you are tempted to stick your Macbook in this stand, put the magnetic latch side down--it runs much cooler with the rear fan slots up.) The visible "front" of a vertical Macbook is 9 square inches--that's 4 square inches LESS than what the visible front of a mini takes up.

So why is it again that a Macbook with the exact same or superior specs doesn't make a better HTPC than a mini? Not price, and not small, quiet form factor, certainly not ease of upgrading RAM or hard drive...which is so easy to do in the Macbook...and when you're ready to upgrade again, say when that xMac, that next gen TGTBT mini is released, the Macbook would still work well as an extender in a bedroom, or disconnected and taken on the road when you travel, or given to a niece or nephew, all thanks to that LCD. Why the resistance, especially since Apple hasn't seen fit to give us a reasonably priced mini with C2D and n yet?

I can't believe I'm getting **** for saying the Mini fits my needs and that I don't need a MB, hence the extra $500 is wasted for me. That's all I said. I didn't bemoan anything. There's nothing here that I 'don't get'. Why is this such an issue??? Do you have something against people who find the Mini sufficient for their needs, and find the Macbook to be overkill as an HTPC?????? I don't need wireless, I already own an HDHomerun, plus I also use firewire to record some stuff. I have an old PC with tons of storage to act as a backend. It it so hard to understand that a Macbook is overkill for me?? You people are insane.

Yeah, who'd have thought this would be viewed as a novel concept?

Right, for those reading along who still don't get it, or who aren't trying to get it--unfortunately it seems cavalierlwt and Count Blah fall into this group--there's no muddying the issue, things aren't (ever) black and white, and why should we stick with list price which few actually pay? Refurbs, like wildrock said, are a great way to go. These are just devices which do a job in the home theater, why not assess the Macbook as device against the mini as device?

I get it alright. Some of us have laptops already. We don't need, and frankly don't want a laptop sitting awkwardly next to out big screens, we want a nice form factor that is inconspicuous, not sticking out like a sore thumb. Sure a MB can do the job, I don't believe I've read anyone saying it can't. It's just that it's not desired. I'm presently using my MBP as my rudimentary HTPC. I have an HDMI cable running across the room, I have to worry about people tripping over it, I have no convenient place to put the MBP once I start watching something, and it's not a permanent solution.

If you want to go double duty with a laptop HTPC, feel free. But I am finding it to be more of a pain.

So please don't pain me as someone who doesn't get it. I get it, I'm using it(MBP actually), and I wish I could use an upgraded mini instead. I don't get this need to break down the cost of the mini versus the MB. I think it's pretty obvious that some simply don't want a laptop to use as a HTPC. No amount of coaxing, or stretching the dollar comparisons is going to change that. BTW, isn't it unsafe to run MBs and MPBs with their lid closed(as your stand does)? The temp on my MBP get pretty hot with the lid open, I'd imagine it would seriously shorten it's lifespan to operate it closed - Ditto for the MB.

It's back to the example of wanting a car with good gas mileage. Sorry chefklc, I want a car, because it fits my needs better, not a motorcycle.

OK. Can we please tone down the conversation a bit? There's no reason to get emotional about this, we're all adults, aren't we?

cavalierlwt and Count Blah: clearly not everyone has the same idea about a home theater. Naturally, those people who are happy with their particular set-up probably feel that everyone would be happy with the same set-up if only they understood.

In a recent talk, Steve Jobs announced that new computer products would soon be announced. It seems fairly likely that, since the MB line has recently been updated, the Mini would get an update.

In the meantime, the Mini is a fine machine and, if something new and wonderful should come along in a few months, you should have no problem selling your Mini -- Apple products tend to have high resale value.

OK. Can we please tone down the conversation a bit? There's no reason to get emotional about this, we're all adults, aren't we?

cavalierlwt and Count Blah: clearly not everyone has the same idea about a home theater. Naturally, those people who are happy with their particular set-up probably feel that everyone would be happy with the same set-up if only they understood.



Why do you say that to me? I'm not the one trying to convince anyone that they're choice of setup is wrong! I'm the one that got bashed for saying a Mini met my needs, and now you're going to chide me for being pushy?
This kind of behavior reminds me militant of Linux people who jump into any thread regardless of topic and then try to ram Linux down your throats. Substitute the Macbook for Linux and this whole thread ran the same way.

My message was not addressed to you at all. The second paragraph, however, was. I'm sorry that it wasn't clear.

Ironically, I took no offense to paragraph one (the tone of the convo), its paragraph two that bothers me. :)

You're chiding the guy (me) who is happy with his choice of setup, and ignoring the members whose only contributions to the thread was to tell me I was wrong for being happy with the Mini. Seriously. I'm happy with anyone's setup if they're happy with it. I just get annoyed when someone insists that I'm clueless for being happy with my setup.

Well, since I apparently did not write it clearly enough, I'll try again.

I think you (and Count Blah) are perfectly correct that, if you are satisfied, you should be congratulated and not criticised.

I hope that's clear now.

My bad. Sorry I took it wrong, I wasn't thinking very clearly.
To tell the truth, I kind of want to just wipe out everything I've written in this thread.

I'm still a little mystified by this.

In the interest of clearing, rather than muddying the waters, what happens if you stick a Macbook upright in a stand like this:

http://www.powersupportusa.com/products/macbook_dockingstand.php

right next to your HDTV all cables stick out the back just like with a mini, the optical drive slot is forward, just like the mini, and the remote or bluetooth mouse still works just fine, just like the mini. (By the way, if you are tempted to stick your Macbook in this stand, put the magnetic latch side down--it runs much cooler with the rear fan slots up.) The visible "front" of a vertical Macbook is 9 square inches--that's 4 square inches LESS than what the visible front of a mini takes up.

chefklc,

While I don't find the Macbook's specs to be lacking anything I need in a HTPC, I do have issue with the form factor. Ideally, my HTMac would have its ports in the back and the optical drive in the front. To do this with a Macbook, I'd have to turn it 90 degrees clockwise. In this position, the IR receiver is no longer facing the front of my media cabinet and makes the remote work even more erradictly than it does now. You say that the remote still works fine with that stand, but I don't have the space available in my media cabinet to have the MB in the vertical position.

The other reason the MB doesn't make a good HTMac for me is also form factor related. It just doesn't look as good in the media center. My living room doesn't have a media closet, so my components are in full display (well, behind the glass doors) and the mini just looks so much better than the MB in this setting.

So I should ammend my comment to this, "Personally, I don't think the MB makes a good HTPC for my situation."

ft

So I should ammend my comment to this, "Personally, I don't think the MB makes a good HTPC for my situation."

I'll 2nd that.. its a nice compromise, but somewhat flawed.. and if we want to talk refurb prices on MacBooks, we also should talk refurb prices for Minis, which can be under $500, which means there is still a $300-$500 price difference Mini to MacBook.

Paying for an extra LCD, worse form factor, and extra kbd aren't in my plans, the Mini is the best of the choices, tho the legendary "Midi" would be much better (3.5" HD, and some internal expansion, so we could use the PCI tuner cards).

Being able to unplug and take it on the go (in MacBook form factor) does have some appeal, I agree, but I already have a laptop for work, so that wouldn't do much for me.).

Mike

I have been waiting, waiting, waiting, for apple to get into the home entertainment market in a big way. Who doesnt own a tv ? Enter the ATV.

But in any market.... there are 30% who want more, understand more, need more.

The mini is a better machine for home viewing because it offers the net, sync with other computers (other big market), and .... can be controlled with an iphone.

The biggest market is yet to come. Apple has done very few stupid things... some dumb, but few stupid. ie .... the smart is yet to be unveiled.

I personally am awaiting .... Russound offered an itunes integration with the ibay bridge... that is why I am looking at them (primarily). but time... time .. time...
will hopefully mean i can stick with apple...

bought the first one in 1985. will buy the next one :-)

No substance here in this post.....but solid conjecture.

I was disappointed at the "demise of the mini" series... but didnt believe it.

Bring on the new minis.

Software to follow.

cheers
sd

I was disappointed at the "demise of the mini" series... but didnt believe it.

The rumors of the minis demise have been greatly exaggerated or as Monty Python would say... "I'm not dead".

"I'm not quite dead. Feeling much better."

Well, I haven't bought my mini yet, have an intel iMac and an older iBook. The Log Cabin Theater is under construction (stay tuned) but from what I can tell, a mini will do perfectly for me. I only intend to use it for DVD rips and physical DVD playback, big screen iPhoto playback and maybe in-theater internet as needed. For HD content I have a Dish HD-DVR and for games, an X-box 360. The features I've researched (tell me if I'm wrong) seem to support my needs just fine:

-DVD-rip storage as needed via firewire drives
-Physical DVD slot
-FrontRow Video_TS support in Leopard
-New DVD Player app in Leopard that (I've read) is very sharp and smooth
-Dolby Digital support and DTS pass-through via optical port
-Works as well with projectors as a MB

Unless the MB performs these tasks better than an intel mini, do you see any reason that the mini wouldn't work just fine for me?

I think you have a very good handle on things, research-wise.

Unless the MB performs these tasks better than an intel mini

Likely it won't, your needs aren't that demanding; the limitations which might impinge on your tasks are the same.

do you see any reason that the mini wouldn't work just fine for me?

No, no performance-related reason. The thing is, you really won't "know" how satisfied or frustrated you'll be until you go through the process of hooking a consumer-grade Intel Mac up to your projector--but since the OS would be the same, and the mini has the same (or older) Macbook parts inside, its capabilities would be similar in terms of connection and setup. You may have to finagle a bit more with the mini (a la VNC) to get the right screen size and ratios, depending on how you connect, then again, you may not.

The current mini configurations, indeed, even the original 1.5 core solo model, should handle your requirements well. Even those initial Intel minis, the core solo and 1.66 CD, had been bumped up to a 5400 SATA drive and the 2GB RAM capability, had bluetooth, gigabit, optical, the GMA 950, firewire, DVI, VGA, the Apple remote, etc.

Because the Intel processors in the mini are socketed, that means down the road should you change your mind about your power needs, i.e. dump the Dish, you could upgrade to a more powerful CPU. (Upgrading RAM and hard drive is MUCH easier in any MB than any mini, but that's not likely to be that big a concern for you.)

The main objection some of us have against purchasing the mini now, is the same objection stated and restated in multiple threads for the past 7 months or so: it's a very poor value, woefully dated with very old core duo chips (rather than C2D) and "g" wireless (rather than "n.") Once the Macbooks went C2D and "n," the 1.83 mini model seemed over-priced to me, now static for almost a year since its release it's even more of a joke value-wise--intentionally crippled and/or artificially propped up price-wise by Apple. The 1.66 core duo at just above $500 as a refurb would be the better bet--more than enough machine to handle your needs as a dvd jukebox and not such a bad value at that price.

You didn't mention how you'll be networking your mini with your other Macs; presumably if over gigabit you'll be perfectly fine in the absence of "n."

Two big variables, though, which you'll just have to roll the dice about:

I know there's been a lot of hopeful speculation about these two developments:


-FrontRow Video_TS support in Leopard
-New DVD Player app in Leopard that (I've read) is very sharp and smooth

but I'll still only believe it when both are verified firsthand. And if it were me, I'd hate to get a mini now, any mini, when I knew the "next-gen TGTBT" mini cloud was hanging so heavy overhead. Unless the Log Cabin theater is ready to rock and roll right now--and you already have the projector and are ready to start testing a connection right now and enjoying dvds now--Leopard is but 3 months away and also, there's bound to be some development soon, some decision, wrt the mini as well. That means a less tricky roll of the dice either way.

I'm planning to place my Mini in a centralize closet for whole house distribution (accomplished through Audio Authority). I want to be able to remotely control the mini via infrared, although my mini is a G4 prior to having the built-in infrared port.

What is the best product? Does any body have experience with this?

G

You didn't mention how you'll be networking your mini with your other Macs; presumably if over gigabit you'll be perfectly fine in the absence of "n."

Well, just over household ethernet and I won't be streaming or anything, ethernet is hardwired throughout the house anyway.

Two big variables, though, which you'll just have to roll the dice about:

I know there's been a lot of hopeful speculation about these two developments: but I'll still only believe it when both are verified firsthand. And if it were me, I'd hate to get a mini now, any mini, when I knew the "next-gen TGTBT" mini cloud was hanging so heavy overhead. Unless the Log Cabin theater is ready to rock and roll right now--and you already have the projector and are ready to start testing a connection right now and enjoying dvds now--Leopard is but 3 months away and also, there's bound to be some development soon, some decision, wrt the mini as well. That means a less tricky roll of the dice either way.

Well I've read in these forums posts by several people who have tested Leopard and say that Video_TS support is working fine via FrontRow, albeit without cover-art support. Also, according to Apple, the new DVD player in Leopard will have multiple zooming options so hopefully I'll be able to handle the screen-filling issue right there in DVD Player without SwitchResX or any fiddling like that.

No, I'm not ready to go on the theater until I get back home in September (working overseas right now). I still need to purchase both the mini and the new projector (and sell my old Sony VPH-1272). The theater is just 4 bare walls and a purple carpet right now, so I think the timing could work out right for getting a mini with Leopard around October if they stick to that release date.

Thanks for your input!

Eq