Alright folks, try not to rip me a new one for not posting in the 8th gen. thread or the anticipation thread. If you're like me, sometimes its nice not to dig through those huge ones.

As some of you know, Definitive Audio in Seattle (actually Bellevue store) has a home theater show every year with great demo's and reps from all the companies giving the presentations.

The picture on this panel is the best I have ever seen. I recently bought a 5080 and now kind of wished that I waited. As much as some of us don't want to admit (myself included) that at certain viewing distances 1080P doesn't matter, the extra resolution and smoothness to the picture was quite evident. They started with a 480i dvd through their new blu-ray player but didn't say at first what was playing. I was thinking ok this looks alright but not amazing. They then went to a clip of Empire Strikes back taped off cable on an HD tivo. This looked very very good with incredible blacks, all stars visible and a very film-like picture.

Next step was The Wild on Blu-ray which looked absolutely ridiculous! The detail in the animals and colors were just out of this world. They then showed Ghost Rider Blu-Ray which looked spectacular as well but as always, not as jaw dropping as the animation.

The reps stressed the fact that the panel was not ISF'd and that it is nearly perfect out of the box. Not sure if this was because they were short on time or what but there was absolutely nothing to complain about with the picture.

Those of you who are thinking there will be a large difference in the blacks between the 15,000:1 and 20,000:1 contrast within the model line may be surprised. Like I said, I have a 5080 at home and the blacks looked very similar if not identical to mine. Maybe at this point the difference has become extremely minor, not sure. I'm sure some of you will see the new one's and disagree, but that was my impression. If your viewing distance is such that the resolution is not an issue and you're looking at the 50" size, I myself would not wait for September simply for the blacks. A 60" is so much bigger though, that's what really stood out.

So this was the best picture at the show and there was some tough competition. I prefer the picture of this plasma to any of the projection setups I saw including the $140,000+ Runco Cinewide Vx-55D with Stewart Cinecurve. If pioneer could make an 80" version of this panel, I don't see how anyone could ask for better. Too small I'm sure some of you would say. I say sit closer.

I was thinking even if they could make a 65" and keep it in the range of 10-12K, Runco, Fujitsu and bang and olufsen would have an EXTREMELY tough time selling their panels. Pioneer, are you listening?

Anyway, I'm at work but will try to answer any questions you may have.

matt

Great post. I've also said that you really would not be able to tell the differene between the blacks (758p vs 1080p) unless they were side by side. Looking forward to getting a 150FD later in the year.

Wohoo 60" 1080p baby, that's what I'm waiting for!!!

Well actually, I believed the biggest black level drop would be with a 1080p 50 inch TV. Doesn't the added size of the 60 inch cancel out the smaller pixel rule D-nice? I assume black level drop goes as follows... to different degrees.

1080p 50, 60 1080p, 50 768p, 42 768p?

And yea, I'd assume 1080p would have a visible difference at 60 inches for sure. A bigger size merits more pixels. I am unsure it would be as apparent at 50 inches. The extra area from 50 to 60 is alot more than people think.

Dude should have taken pictures! Oooh man, I'd love to have seen that set!

Well actually, I believed the biggest black level drop would be with a 1080p 50 inch TV. Doesn't the added size of the 60 inch cancel out the smaller pixel rule D-nice? I assume black level drop goes as follows... to different degrees.

1080p 50, 60 1080p, 50 768p, 42 768p?

And yea, I'd assume 1080p would have a visible difference at 60 inches for sure. A bigger size merits more pixels. I am unsure it would be as apparent at 50 inches. The extra area from 50 to 60 is alot more than people think.You are correct sir.

And yea, I'd assume 1080p would have a visible difference at 60 inches for sure. A bigger size merits more pixels. I am unsure it would be as apparent at 50 inches. The extra area from 50 to 60 is alot more than people think.

Not sure if I am reading this right, but I wanted to point at that a 60" plasma does not have more pixels than a 50", it simply has larger pixels. The problem with smaller 1080 panels is the human eye's inability to discern small objects past a certain distance...thus the issue of 1080 looking like 720 at far distances (relatively of course), our eyes are just missing the added resolution. If your seating position stays the same but the pixels get bigger, all of sudden we can make out the extra detail :)

And I too am waiting for his TV.

Not sure if I am reading this right, but I wanted to point at that a 60" plasma does not have more pixels than a 50", it simply has larger pixels. The problem with smaller 1080 panels is the human eye's inability to discern small objects past a certain distance...thus the issue of 1080 looking like 720 at far distances (relatively of course), our eyes are just missing the added resolution. If your seating position stays the same but the pixels get bigger, all of sudden we can make out the extra detail :)

And I too am waiting for his TV.

I am not speaking of resolution persay. It's just that the new 8g tech bases its black level performance on how small the pixels are... regardless of how many there are in the actual TV.

1080p on 60 has bigger pixels than the 1080p on the 50 inch. Hence a slightly higher black level on the 60.

Matt, great review but I've got a big question. At this show did you happen to see the 65" Fujitsu Aviamo? If so, how would you compare the Pioneer to it?

Nice post/review. Certainly deserves its own thread! I am eager to see these in person, hopefully will show up sooner than September...

Ken, Definitive used to carry Fujitsu but I don't believe they do any more. They only do Pioneer Elite and Runco in the plasma department. I agree though, that would have been a fun comparison. I guess I could have run accross the street to Magnolia to compare but I'm way too lazy for that. They probably wouldn't have allowed for a side by side comparison anyway since the show is for manufacturers to show off their stuff. They would have been in separate exhibits with different demo material I'm sure. I've been following your decision process somewhat, it will be interesting to see what you pick. 65" seems much bigger than 60" even if the pioneer's blacks are better. That would be sweet in pioneer made a 65.

150FD but no 110FD?! Odd - but thanks for posting!

Happy Shopping..

Mongoos,

Its not really that weird that they didn't have the 110 because it wasn't a pioneer line show. The companies at this event just bring their best and most new gear and usually only get one setup each(except Runco who had 3-4 projectors with mixed results). So pioneer had one room to show their best and that was the 150, their new receiver and blu-ray player. B&W speakers were used but it was hard to pay attention to anything but the picture.

You saw my tv and didnt ask for the dimensions? :p i'ts been a while i'm asking about the dimensions of that 150fd (Weight,Height,Width,...) i want it so bad but needs to know if my wall is big enough! ;)

Albator, after seeing it, I would change my wall or move before you compromise on the tv! I will tell you though the bezel looked to be about three inches all the way around the screen. The frame appeared much bigger than the 5080's.

Thanks! :)

Albator, after seeing it, I would change my wall or move before you compromise on the tv! I will tell you though the bezel looked to be about three inches all the way around the screen. The frame appeared much bigger than the 5080's.

Hmmm, I suspected that might be the case: the bezel on the current Pioneer 1080p is much thicker than the 720p version, so this would be consistent. I was hoping they could have a thinner bezel with the upcoming models. Oh well.

Any chance of seeing these before September? :D

the 60 inch is going to go for $7,500?

Saw the Elite Version of the 5080 tonight at the Best Buy in Pleasant Hill, CA. They just got it in today. Setting it to "pure" produced such a beautiful and natural picture. I wanted to take it home right away :( The sharpness and white levels are certainly far superior than the my 5070. And ofcourse the blacks.

This TV has a crap load of options. Certainly enough to drive anyone crazy. They're waiting to sell the floor model of the PRO-FHD1 so they can hook this bad boy upto the Pioneer BR player and give it a best way to shine.

The manager on the shift really knew what he was talking about which is great for a change. He said he's been staring at it all day also. It seriously put the other TV's to shame in the Magnolia section. I asked his about setting the TV's to "dynamic" He was quite honest. He said he hates it but it draws the moths to the flame. He stated that the average consumer litearlly gets turned off by a "natural" picture. They want the sharp over processed look at all times. However he said he is quite pleased when enthusiasts come in and want to see the sets how they're meant to be. Never though I'd say this: two thumbs up for a BB employee! and ofcourse I bow down to the elite version of the 5080.

So 1080p models are already making there way around? Even at BB? This is getting complex.

And Robert, I'm w/ ya. The 'common' buyer is CLUELESS.

So 1080p models are already making there way around? Even at BB? This is getting complex.

Somehow I get the impression he was looking at the 1150HD (elite version of the
5080) and got it mixed up with the 150FD which supposedly won't be here till Aug/Sept.

Somehow I get the impression he was looking at the 1150HD (elite version of the
5080) and got it mixed up with the 150FD which supposedly won't be here till Aug/Sept.

yeah, I wonder about that too--need to clarify!

Thanks for the sneak peak & review. I'm a new member (as of yesterday) and am beginning my education & research for the new Pioneer models. So I appreciate the caliber & quality of information this forum has already given me!

Where do I go to learn more about the shopping options - particulalry experiences using your online sponsors?

I apologize if I heading off topic - it is not my intent. Looking for a pointer/thread.

I saw the 5080 yesterday at my local Best Buy and can't wait to see the rest of the Pioneer line. I'm hoping to purchase the 50" 1080p Elite Model.

Thanks again.

RobertR1, I think you got your 8G models numbers mixed up. You can go back and edit the post if you like. Yeah, that is refreshing to find a store salesperson that actually IS knowledgeable in AV, rather than the usual misinformed or one that will say anything just to push a display or video tech. Perhaps you've made an insider "friend" there at your local BB that will be able to give you the best deal when you're ready to buy. You have no area location under your username, and wonder just where this BB is located??

Good things have been said about the forums sponsors like Roman and Cleveland, so I'm sure you'd be happy with one of them. If you are looking for an Elite, you can PM me and I have a source that may be able to help you. Eitherway, this would appear to be a great time to buy a great new plasma.

Russ

Thanks for the sneak peak & review. I'm a new member (as of yesterday) and am beginning my education & research for the new Pioneer models. So I appreciate the caliber & quality of information this forum has already given me!

Where do I go to learn more about the shopping options - particulalry experiences using your online sponsors?

I apologize if I heading off topic - it is not my intent. Looking for a pointer/thread.

I saw the 5080 yesterday at my local Best Buy and can't wait to see the rest of the Pioneer line. I'm hoping to purchase the 50" 1080p Elite Model.

Thanks again.

RobertR1, I think you got your 8G models numbers mixed up. You can go back and edit the post if you like. Yeah, that is refreshing to find a store salesperson that actually IS knowledgeable in AV, rather than the usual misinformed or one that will say anything just to push a display or video tech. Perhaps you've made an insider "friend" there at your local BB that will be able to give you the best deal when you're ready to buy. You have no area location under your username, and wonder just where this BB is located??

Pleasant Hill, California as I stated in my post.

I'm sorry if I got the Sku's mixed up but it's the Elite Version of the 5080. I edited my post to reflect such. They even had a pen written tag for it since it's brand new. He said they were given no warning whatsoever and it just showed up. Along with a new Pioneer receiver. The Pioneer receiver was located in the audio room within the magnolia section. They didn't even have a spec sheet for it yet! Not sure of the exact model but it was HDMI1.3 with 2in/1out. We talked a bit about how much of a pain it's going to be since the they clearly market DTS-HD and TruHD but due to authoring, the player must decode interally and how many complaints they'll have to deal with. He said people were calling up and complaining when they'd take home a HD DVD or BR disc, play it but it wouldn't show up as 1080P even though their TV sets were only 720/1080i capable. They were convinced that since the disc said 1080P the TV should magically do 1080P also. Now, that's funny!

The Elite verson of the 5080HD is the 1150HD, the 150FD is the 60" 1080p unit, which is not out till August/Sept.

Yes confusing numbers...


Pleasant Hill, California as I stated in my post.

I'm sorry if I got the Sku's mixed up but it's the Elite Version of the 5080. I edited my post to reflect such. They even had a pen written tag for it since it's brand new. He said they were given no warning whatsoever and it just showed up. Along with a new Pioneer receiver. The Pioneer receiver was located in the audio room within the magnolia section. They didn't even have a spec sheet for it yet! Not sure of the exact model but it was HDMI1.3 with 2in/1out. We talked a bit about how much of a pain it's going to be since the they clearly market DTS-HD and TruHD but due to authoring, the player must decode interally and how many complaints they'll have to deal with. He said people were calling up and complaining when they'd take home a HD DVD or BR disc, play it but it wouldn't show up as 1080P even though their TV sets were only 720/1080i capable. They were convinced that since the disc said 1080P the TV should magically do 1080P also. Now, that's funny!

Pleasant Hill, California as I stated in my post.

I'm sorry if I got the Sku's mixed up but it's the Elite Version of the 5080. I edited my post to reflect such. They even had a pen written tag for it since it's brand new. He said they were given no warning whatsoever and it just showed up. Along with a new Pioneer receiver. The Pioneer receiver was located in the audio room within the magnolia section. They didn't even have a spec sheet for it yet! Not sure of the exact model but it was HDMI1.3 with 2in/1out. We talked a bit about how much of a pain it's going to be since the they clearly market DTS-HD and TruHD but due to authoring, the player must decode interally and how many complaints they'll have to deal with. He said people were calling up and complaining when they'd take home a HD DVD or BR disc, play it but it wouldn't show up as 1080P even though their TV sets were only 720/1080i capable. They were convinced that since the disc said 1080P the TV should magically do 1080P also. Now, that's funny!

Your comments are appreciated, but the reason for so much confusion is that you posted in a thread about a sneak peek at the 60" 1080p Pio...The fact that you actually saw the elite version of the 5080 makes sense--and is the first viewer comment I have seen on it.

Yes confusing numbers...
Would someone "in the know" clarify these confusing numbers? :confused: Which model numbers are 720p, 1080p and what the important differences are in the various series?

Why would Pio use 150 as a model number for a 60" set when they usually have model numbers that contain the FP size?

The actual model numbers have been posted a number of times in the various 8G threads (someone can repost if they like). In the meantime, all you have to keep track of is:

There are elite and non-elite models in the 42, 50, and 60 inch sizes.

1080p is only available in the 50 and 60 inch sizes, and 1080p is the only option at 60 inches.

The confusion is because the 768P models are now in the fifth generation of the current nomenclature.

The 50" 768P Elite models have always started with 11. ie 1110, 1120...1140 and now 1150. The 60" models began with a 15 eg.1540 and would now be a 1550 if there was one.

The 1080P models use the same number prefixes with a zero added on, thus 110 and 150.


768P models end with HD (PRO1150HD) and 1080P models end with FD (Full HD) -PRO110FD


The confusion will go away next year when the 50" 768p model (if they still make one) will be part of the 60 series and the model number will be PRO1160HD while the 60" 1080P will probably be a PRO151FD.

Good things have been said about the forums sponsors like Roman and Cleveland, so I'm sure you'd be happy with one of them. If you are looking for an Elite, you can PM me and I have a source that may be able to help you. Eitherway, this would appear to be a great time to buy a great new plasma.

Russ

Thank you russwong for making me feel welcome. I'll be in touch.

Somehow I get the impression he was looking at the 1150HD (elite version of the
5080) and got it mixed up with the 150FD which supposedly won't be here till Aug/Sept.
This happened to me today. I went to BB to look at a few TV's and the salesguy was telling me at the Magnolia store across town they have the new 1080P Pio and its great. So I said maybe I'll take a look. So I went over there and it was the PRO FHD1 and I said thats an older model. And the salesman said yes but its still the King of plasmas. No kidding!

This happened to me today. I went to BB to look at a few TV's and the salesguy was telling me at the Magnolia store across town they have the new 1080P Pio and its great. So I said maybe I'll take a look. So I went over there and it was the PRO FHD1 and I said thats an older model. And the salesman said yes but its still the King of plasmas. No kidding! Idiot salespeople.

Any Word On The Inputs On The 60'' 1080p Elite Model? I'm Hoping For 4 Hdmi (v1.3) Inputs.

This happened to me today. I went to BB to look at a few TV's and the salesguy was telling me at the Magnolia store across town they have the new 1080P Pio and its great. So I said maybe I'll take a look. So I went over there and it was the PRO FHD1 and I said thats an older model. And the salesman said yes but its still the King of plasmas. No kidding!

... King? Uh oh..

And the salesman said yes but its still the King of plasmas. No kidding!


i didnt know that bladerunner7 works at BB...... :D

Today I stopped in the Bellevue Magolia to get one more look at the Pro 1140 HD... now on close-out for $2999. As I strolled up to the "living room" setup, staffers were actually switching out the 1140 for the just-arrived, brand-new 1150. (5,000 bucks, by the way.)

VERY black screen even before powering on and once hooked up, the set, the picture, the quality of the images were absolutely STUNNING . Flipping through a series of HD channels was an exercise in teasing and taunting of the most demonic kind. I wanted to walk out with that television right then and there. Or just sit and watch it for a few days.

I'd love to compare the 1140 and the 1150 side-by-side.... guessing that the earlier model -- as good as it is -- would be challenged to keep up. But still, the 1140, closing out, is $2,000 cheaper. That matters to some of us.

The 1150 was priced at $5,000? Isn't MSRP $4,500? If I have my numbers right, it sounds like BB is up to their old tricks again, charging more than MSRP when these things first come out, claiming confusion on the actual price. I can't remember if it was Pioneer or Pany they did this with last year, but when I asked them about their price being $500 higher than MSRP they claimed ignorance and replied that the MSRP was, in fact, $500 more than it actually was. I find it very hard to trust a company like BB, due to this and the lawsuit they are currently involved with concerning their 2 "official" websites, which look the same but are not. One for on-line folks and one for in store use so they can show customers a different price. Pretty sleazy.

The 1150 was priced at $5,000? Isn't MSRP $4,500? If I have my numbers right, it sounds like BB is up to their old tricks again


You see this quite often when a new item hits the market. It is quite common to see retailers mark up as high as 20% when new Nvidia or ATI video cards are released (gamers). For some whether it be "must have at any cost" or just impulsive buyers they are quick to jump on it. Retailers know this and milk it for what its worth. After the initial rave the prices levels out...glad we have a competitive market to HELP keep a handle on this.

I am aware of this "market adjusted value" scam, I just do not like it and feel, in BB's case, it was/is dishonest. I feel this way because they act like they are selling it for MSRP when, in fact, they are jacking up the price above MSRP and they know it. If someone, knowingly, is willing to pay a premium over MSRP so they can be the first to have a new product, then more power to them, as long as they are not being lied to.

You mentioned a two website suit that BB is involved in. If that is the case, it is very disappointing and takes away some of the confidence that people have in them. That will definitely have an impact on my panel purchase for sure. Will visit BB a.k.a Magnolia Center Tuesday. Will check out the elites and the new 5080.

I am hoping (wink wink) that Magnolia stores with BB will have the new Elites almost a full month before any other vendors get their hands on them. I cannot wait to put one up inside my MHT Room and see the Panasonic and Sharp rep's start crying!!!!! I am just not sure if it was the 1150 etc or the new 1080P models I heard about....hmmmmmmmmmm...

The 1150's have already been available from other dealers before BB. As a matter of fact, I tihnk one user posted a picture having one. BB/Magnolia is probably the last place I would ever buy from, unless it was a going out of business sale or something. Their prices are just too high in general. Their stores are more for the uninformed consumer who doesn't know better or who don't have a choice.... but with the internet and dealers willing to ship, there's almost always a choice.

I am hoping (wink wink) that Magnolia stores with BB will have the new Elites almost a full month before any other vendors get their hands on them. I cannot wait to put one up inside my MHT Room and see the Panasonic and Sharp rep's start crying!!!!! I am just not sure if it was the 1150 etc or the new 1080P models I heard about....hmmmmmmmmmm...

MHT isnt the devil...lol
we sell elites at msrp. there is no pricing on pioneers site for the elite yet so how can we be "wrong?" you guys overestimate the evil of a big company. lol

they still show the 60" for $7k. We are selling well below $6k. I think 5499 right now.

I am hoping my rep is right that the 1080's will be shipping a little early, and MHT will get them first, but I am just hoping like I said.

And the lawsuit thing was dropped before it ever started. There is no scam, never has been. We price match our website everyday and always have.

The store kiosks jusy have a closed loop system, it is not the internet. It shows the stores pricing and availability. It even says in huge letters on the top "This kiosk reflects in store pricing." We can access, and will show you, and will match...BB website which says, when in the store, "This site represents national pricing."

sometimes local is lower, sometimes national is.

call 888-bestbuy. they will very openly inform you of the entire situation form beginning to end. I was actually impressed by the transparency the company showed us and our clients.

Didn't bb get the pioneer usa press release with msrp clearly listed?
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/press/release/detail/0,,2076_310069589_441157918,00.html

lol. fair enough.
lets see what happens. hard to say since the sets just arrived at our stores this weekend. they showed up on my delivery truck unexpected. I do not ever remember selling anything over list, but it is possible. We follow our price guidelines with our vendors very closely. I would be suprised. Not shocked, but suprised none the less.
I still dont think it makes them the devil. lol.

I never saw the release. Missed it on their site. You have to remember, until the product comes out, and even then, it is really up to us to learn all this crap on our own. They just now are starting a very comprehensive training program you will be hearing more about for our people. As far as pricing I ingnore just about everyting until I see a price tag. I have seen prices go up, down and sideways before, during, and after product launches (and not from BB's end either!!!)

the 5080's are at MSRP. 3499, and on sale this week for less. lol.

anywho back to the tv's....

does anyone know if they will take the new wide color blah blah blah XvCC (?)
Not all 1.3 will correct? Also I am wondering if the will make it exclusive to the 1080 models this year for extra exclusivity.

the crap i hate is what CC website is doing now (and seen on many internet dealers sites also), they list a panny th58pz700u for $5499 when the correct msrp is $4799 (the 700 not the 750u), then give $1180 discount making some buyers think they are getting a much better -22% deal when it really is 10% (which matches bb at the moment).

me too. i never got that either. lol
BB did have 60 day price matching which was nice though.

I see BB/Magnolia is charging the Canadian MSRP on the US folks for that 1150. :)

Any Word On The Inputs On The 60'' 1080p Elite Model? I'm Hoping For 4 Hdmi (v1.3) Inputs.

If I'm not mistaken all the new panels will have 4 HDMI inputs v1.3

Geez - all these posts got me to go to BB and Tweeter tonight (in Salem NH) hoping to see at least the 5080, or the 1150. BB had them in stock, but none displayed since they're still trying to dump the old models. Bummer. Tweeter didn't have any of the new elite models. Aren't they going bankrupt or something? Anyway, if someone finds out the dimensions of the 150FD, and if it includes a tabletop stand would very much appreciate!!!

the 5080's are at MSRP. 3499, and on sale this week for less. lol.

Some sale, it might just cover gas and tolls... :(

Geez - all these posts got me to go to BB and Tweeter tonight (in Salem NH) hoping to see at least the 5080, or the 1150. BB had them in stock, but none displayed since they're still trying to dump the old models. Bummer. Tweeter didn't have any of the new elite models. Aren't they going bankrupt or something? Anyway, if someone finds out the dimensions of the 150FD, and if it includes a tabletop stand would very much appreciate!!!

BestBuy in Nashua had the 5080 on the wall when I was there last Saturday. I just watched it for a couple of minutes, but it looked very, very nice.

A little later, I was in the Newbury Comics that is attached to Tweeter, but I didn't bother going in because I didn't realize the Elites were already showing up in stores.

Not sure if I am reading this right, but I wanted to point at that a 60" plasma does not have more pixels than a 50", it simply has larger pixels. The problem with smaller 1080 panels is the human eye's inability to discern small objects past a certain distance...thus the issue of 1080 looking like 720 at far distances (relatively of course), our eyes are just missing the added resolution. If your seating position stays the same but the pixels get bigger, all of sudden we can make out the extra detail :)

And I too am waiting for his TV.

all fine and dandy but that calc is based on 20/20.. I have 20/10 so theoritically I can sit further back..I've seen the difference 720p/1080p at distances in excess of 15ft..I'm waiting for this 150HD set myself.

wow, a rare genetic specimen like you should submit yourself for medical science research, pronto.


http://www.carltonbale.com/wp-content/uploads/resolution_chart.png

wow, a rare genetic specimen like you should submit yourself for medical science research, pronto.


http://www.carltonbale.com/wp-content/uploads/resolution_chart.png

ROFL!!!:D:D

Do you think I could sit 15' from a 42"er and get that warm & fuzzy HT experience?

Today I stopped in the Bellevue Magolia to get one more look at the Pro 1140 HD... now on close-out for $2999. As I strolled up to the "living room" setup, staffers were actually switching out the 1140 for the just-arrived, brand-new 1150. (5,000 bucks, by the way.)

VERY black screen even before powering on and once hooked up, the set, the picture, the quality of the images were absolutely STUNNING . Flipping through a series of HD channels was an exercise in teasing and taunting of the most demonic kind. I wanted to walk out with that television right then and there. Or just sit and watch it for a few days.

I'd love to compare the 1140 and the 1150 side-by-side.... guessing that the earlier model -- as good as it is -- would be challenged to keep up. But still, the 1140, closing out, is $2,000 cheaper. That matters to some of us.

I've seen the 1140 compared to the 950 by the Kuro demo. In some scenes, the difference is small (e.g, daylight skyscapes), but it is significant in most others, esp any of the processing tests like jaggies, smooth panning, flashing, etc.

Well actually, I believed the biggest black level drop would be with a 1080p 50 inch TV. Doesn't the added size of the 60 inch cancel out the smaller pixel rule D-nice? I assume black level drop goes as follows... to different degrees.

1080p 50, 60 1080p, 50 768p, 42 768p?

I'm not sure I understand this.

Why does a smaller pixel produce a less deeper black?

Which would you get?
The
Pioneer Elite 50" Flat-Panel Plasma HDTV
Model: PRO-1150HD

or the

Pioneer PDP-5010FD?

Is this question for me or are you asking people in general?

I'm not sure I understand this.

Why does a smaller pixel produce a less deeper black?

Hello fellow Metallica fan. Um, it's just the way the new Pioneer tech works. The smaller the pixel, the darker the all black screen will be.

Wait, you just confused me even more.

Smaller pixel = deeper black?

Wait, you just confused me even more.

Smaller pixel = deeper black?

Yes. Smaller pixel. Deeper black. :) Only for Pioneer's new tech. The reverse has been true for plasmas. The re-engineering they did makes this occur. If you search people will explain it. I find it easier to just say.

The smaller the pixel = the deeper the black.

How much deeper? Eh... I dunno.

Okay, that's exactly how I felt about things, and I must have misunderstood you last night when I read your original post.

"I believed the biggest black level drop would be with a 1080p 50 inch TV."

I thought you meant drop as in ... loss of depth of black (as in blacks becoming lighter).

All is well again. \m/ :)

It's the Kuro cell structure. The phosphors are only excited at the base of the cell (vertical pre-charge) as compared to the conventional electrodes on the cell walls (horizontal pre-charge).

Because the base size varies per actual pixel size (pitch), the electrode on the base will be larger or smaller...again depending on the pixel size.

So, the 50" 1080p has the smallest pixel size of all the current Kuro plasmas. Followed by the 60" 1080p....50" 768p.....42" 768p.

Next year, if Pioneer decides to keep it's plans to introduce a 42" 1080p Kuro model, it will have the best black level.

Okay, that's exactly how I felt about things, and I must have misunderstood you last night when I read your original post.

"I believed the biggest black level drop would be with a 1080p 50 inch TV."

I thought you meant drop as in ... loss of depth of black (as in blacks becoming lighter).

All is well again. \m/ :)

\m/ Haha. Devil horns. Metallica in HD on a Pioneer 150FD. Man you're gonna see groupies in your living room it's gonna look so real!

Yes. Smaller pixel. Deeper black. :) Only for Pioneer's new tech. The reverse has been true for plasmas. The re-engineering they did makes this occur. If you search people will explain it. I find it easier to just say.

The smaller the pixel = the deeper the black.

How much deeper? Eh... I dunno.
That's actually more intuitive than the opposite and it's why I was confused when I misread your post and thought you meant smaller pixel = loss of black. I believe the reason for the deeper black with smaller pixels is due to the fact that a smaller light source (smaller pixel) will produce less light when it's idling (reproducing black) - lower idle luminance.

It's the Kuro cell structure. The phosphors are only excited at the base of the cell (vertical pre-charge) as compared to the conventional electrodes on the cell walls (horizontal pre-charge).

Because the base size varies per actual pixel size (pitch), the electrode on the base will be larger or smaller...again depending on the pixel size.
Thanks for the insight.

Any idea if the pitch is comparable to that of a Sony KD-34XBR960 (CRT)?

Thanks for the insight.

Any idea if the pitch is comparable to that of a Sony KD-34XBR960 (CRT)?

You mean all black?

I have no idea.

\m/ Haha. Devil horns. Metallica in HD on a Pioneer 150FD. Man you're gonna see groupies in your living room it's gonna look so real!
I'm actually after the 110FD.

As far as I know there's nothing Metallica in HD. Am I wrong? :)

You mean all black?
The pixel density.

I have no idea.
Well, doh! It was a stupid question anyway.... if both screens have the same amount of pixels, but one is 34" the other 50"........ obviously the pitch will not be the same. Disregard question. :)

I'm actually after the 110FD.

As far as I know there's nothing Metallica in HD. Am I wrong? :)

Uuuuuh... no. Sadly. Except for maybe that little mega concert thing. Sooner or later there will be I'm sure, unless they implode. Best thing I've seen concert wise in HD has been Nine Inch Nails in terms of looks. I am not the biggest fan. Incubus much more my style. Great disk too!

And I believe the Pioneer 110FD is my favorite at the moment too. A 5010 right under that. And then some other TV that may or may not, depending on how well or horrible it does when I see it.

The pixel density.

Um, oh. We were talking about this before! I am unsure about this too. 34 inch CRT vs. a 50 inc plasma ya know?

But in turn, I've never really sat close to a CRT even one as good as the xbr960 and found it to be the cleanest picture. That thing was the king CRT TVs eh?

Best concert to watch on any TV (even though it's just a SD DVD) is Dream Theater's Live at the Budokan. IMO

But enough off-topic...

Best concert to watch on any TV (even though it's just a SD DVD) is Dream Theater's Live at the Budokan. IMO

But enough off-topic...

Gotcha Petrucci. When you get your 110FD please praise it all you'd like. :)

Johnny B = Down Low?

Uh.. too slow?

I'm not sure I understand this.

Why does a smaller pixel produce a less deeper black?Without knowing the answer myself I should point out to you that none of the answers you have recieved are correct either. Not trying to insult anyone but rather to actually get to the bottom of this for my own interest.

What I do know is that up until the 8G pioneer's it was the opposite that was true. The smaller the pixel the higher the black level. This was because the smaller you make a plasma pixel the lower the efficiency it has at producing light and the lower the probablility of ionizing the gas inside the pixel. So in order to get enough light out of the pixel they needed to raise the number of emission pulses (which in turn raise the number of pre-charge pulses) as well as raise the pre-charge voltage to make sure the pixel fired. This is why the black level was higher with smaller pixels.

Note: (Even raising the number of pixels raised the black level as it reduced the time available for each pixel to produce light, indirectly lowering efficiency)

Now , with the new pioneer cell structure the opposite is true. And why is uncertain to me at this time. But I have my hands on both of Pioneer's new patents regarding low background luminence and the new cell structure (electron source (bottom layer of MgO) that increases efficiency).

When I figure out what the hell it means I'll let you know :)

You got my hopes down again.

You're saying that instead of having the best blacks, my 110FD will have the worst blacks?

Without knowing the answer myself I should point out to you that none of the answers you have recieved are correct either. Not trying to insult anyone but rather to actually get to the bottom of this for my own interest.

What I do know is that up until the 8G pioneer's it was the opposite that was true. The smaller the pixel the higher the black level. This was because the smaller you make a plasma pixel the lower the efficiency it has at producing light and the lower the probablility of ionizing the gas inside the pixel. So in order to get enough light out of the pixel they needed to raise the number of emission pulses (which in turn raise the number of pre-charge pulses) as well as raise the pre-charge voltage to make sure the pixel fired. This is why the black level was higher with smaller pixels.

Note: (Even raising the number of pixels raised the black level as it reduced the time available for each pixel to produce light, indirectly lowering efficiency)

Now , with the new pioneer cell structure the opposite is true. And why is uncertain to me at this time. But I have my hands on both of Pioneer's new patents regarding low background luminence and the new cell structure (electron source (bottom layer of MgO) that increases efficiency).

When I figure out what the hell it means I'll let you know :)I've already had the patent info you got "translated" per my contact. I know where you are going with that patent, but the amount of the precharge emission is dependent on the size of the base electrode.

So, the 50" 1080p has the smallest pixel size of all the current Kuro plasmas. Followed by the 60" 1080p....50" 768p.....42" 768p.

Next year, if Pioneer decides to keep it's plans to introduce a 42" 1080p Kuro model, it will have the best black level.


Did you inadvertently invert the order of the 768p sets - the 42" should precede the 50", right? Or did you mean the 1080p 50", then the 42" 768?

I've already had the patent info you got "translated" per my contact. I know where you are going with that patent, but the amount of the precharge emission is dependent on the size of the base electrode.If you mean the patents I posted here they have nothing to do with the 10l/w cell structure. That patent application is pending and I have access to it :)

Too bad I can't understand it :(

You got my hopes down again.

You're saying that instead of having the best blacks, my 110FD will have the worst blacks?Nope, when I say higher black level it means worse blacks. Lower black level means better blacks. So the 110FD will have a lower black level than the 5080. Again, not quite sure why because in the past the opposite was true for the reasons I said above.

Cheers

Invert the order? No.

I can't wait to see this set.
I hope very soon will be available at the Pioneer store at South Coast Plaza.

My GOD!! ... You guys are amazing is there anything I can't find out here?!! ... I saw the Elite version(768p) of the 5080 (768p) at a Tweeter this weekend. The blacks are phenomenal. I am just starting to learn about this technology and I am addicted to the AVS forum. My wife is going to kill me if I don't get a set soon .. she's sick of my obsession!!!

Anyway, I digress ... while at the store, I was amazed that the 768 picture really was top notch, even over the 1080p Panasonic I saw (which was also very good by the way (700 series).

But I can't help but wonder if I will regret picking a 768P set over a 1080P set. I didn't get the chance to see any true 1080P source on these sets, so I have no reference point. I guess my question is ... without being able to actually see a 1080P source. I know that it sort of depends how far back you are (8-11 feet) will I regret it in the long run? mind you .. I can't afford a Pioneer 1080P set so I may have to chose either a Samsung 5084 or Panasonic 700u.

Keep in mind the set I saw was an Elite. I would have to "settle" for a 5080HD .. but what would you guys do? Would you wait until you could afford the Pioneer 1080P set, or would you get one of the 1080Ps (Sammy/Panny) you could afford .. OR the 5080HD (768P)? If I get the 768P there would never be a reason for me to get a Blue Ray or HD-DVD would there?

My GOD!! ... You guys are amazing is there anything I can't find out here?!! ... I saw the Elite version(768p) of the 5080 (768p) at a Tweeter this weekend. The blacks are phenomenal. I am just starting to learn about this technology and I am addicted to the AVS forum. My wife is going to kill me if I don't get a set soon .. she's sick of my obsession!!!

Anyway, I digress ... while at the store, I was amazed that the 768 picture really was top notch, even over the 1080p Panasonic I saw (which was also very good by the way (700 series).

But I can't help but wonder if I will regret picking a 768P set over a 1080P set. I didn't get the chance to see any true 1080P source on these sets, so I have no reference point. I guess my question is ... without being able to actually see a 1080P source. I know that it sort of depends how far back you are (8-11 feet) will I regret it in the long run? mind you .. I can't afford a Pioneer 1080P set so I may have to chose either a Samsung 5084 or Panasonic 700u.

Keep in mind the set I saw was an Elite. I would have to "settle" for a 5080HD .. but what would you guys do? Would you wait until you could afford the Pioneer 1080P set, or would you get one of the 1080Ps (Sammy/Panny) you could afford .. OR the 5080HD (768P)? If I get the 768P there would never be a reason for me to get a Blue Ray or HD-DVD would there?
Get the set that looks better to you today. If one looks the best today it will still be the one out of your current choices that looks best tomorrow and the next day and .... It's not like some magical thing is going to happen in two years that will transform a current 1080P set into something that it isn't already today.

Get the set that looks better to you today. If one looks the best today it will still be the one out of your current choices that looks best tomorrow and the next day and .... It's not like some magical thing is going to happen in two years that will transform a current 1080P set into something that it isn't already today.


Hudson ... I hear what you are saying, however, I have not yet seen the Samsung 5084 and I also haven't seen any 1080P content on the Pioneer. I guess I would like to give it the Blue Ray try and see if that sways me i one direction or another.

Is the Pro-150FD already on any showroom? What about the Pio showroom in Costa Mesa, CA?

Other factors to consider is the lighting within the show room, which will make the overall experience much better. Also the Blu-ray feeds and HD feeds can be different than what your feeds are on your 5080. The only way to tell if the difference is worth it as if you get it home side-by-side with same material. Other than that, great job MFLUGSTA!

Chris

I just went to the Pioneer store in Costa Mesa and the salesperson said this Thursday the 150FD will be on display.
I checked the 50" Elite and WOW!, is outstanding. I can't imagine the 60"!