@ Greenland

Do you own a G8??

If you don't really don't understand how you can do such a strong marketing.

I'm trying to do the same. it seems as if the people on that forum questioned using a 50% window instead of a 100% window and the poster redid the measurement with a 100% window and the on/off contrast ratio hit 8108:1 (village idiot left this part out). I also do not see anywhere where the poster listed a minimum luminance reading.

Did they teach you any math at school? If full white and contrast ratio reading is given, you can calculate minimum luminance.

No. It's calibrated on/off.

Calibrated on/off is full white vs full black no?

Calibrated on/off is full white vs full black no?Yep.

Blegh, I am sure someone by now got their Plasma TV ISF'd and can give us some feedback in english. What would be interesting is if you can get some other plasma Tv 'stats' from that same swedish calibrator. Then we really can start comparing.

Blegh, I am sure someone by now got their Plasma TV ISF'd and can give us some feedback in english. What would be interesting is if you can get some other plasma Tv 'stats' from that same swedish calibrator. Then we really can start comparing.

read this morning that parasite is having his done right now by UMR.

read this morning that parasite is having his done right now by UMR.

Oh? Cool. :) Maybe we can have more light shed on the subject.

Oh? Cool. :) Maybe we can have more light shed on the subject.

Don't we want less light?? :D

Blegh, I am sure someone by now got their Plasma TV ISF'd and can give us some feedback in english. What would be interesting is if you can get some other plasma Tv 'stats' from that same swedish calibrator. Then we really can start comparing.That is true. If the calibrator still had a 46ft-l reading from a 100% Full White window, that places the minimum luminance level in the 0.005ft-l range. However, we do not know if that is the case.

UMR is calibrating a 5080 owner's plasma today. hopefully we will get some very accurate numbers as he uses the Photo Research PR-670 SpectraScan.

Thanks Bruzzi

Thanks Bruzzi


EDIT: rogan1972 already posted a better translation so I decided to delete my post. :)

That is true. If the calibrator still had a 46ft-l reading from a 100% Full White window, that places the minimum luminance level in the 0.005ft-l range. However, we do not know if that is the case.

UMR is calibrating a 5080 owner's plasma today. hopefully we will get some very accurate numbers as he uses the Photo Research PR-670 SpectraScan.

Full white reading drops with 100%APL. This is why Pioneer likes to promote their static contrast, not on/off contrast.

Full white reading drops with 100%APL. This is why Pioneer likes to promote their static contrast, not on/off contrast.

All plasmas do this I'm sure. That's why rear projections get very high on/off contrast ratings yet it doesn't translate into real viewing. Most movies and stuff are middle bright scenes with alot of dark and bright areas.

If the white reading drops with a 100% window, the minimum luminance would drop also to come up with a reading of 8108:1, correct? So the question is, what is the ft-l reading of a 100% window?

If the white reading drops with a 100% window, the minimum luminance would drop also to come up with a reading of 8108:1, correct? So the question is, what is the ft-l reading of a 100% window?

White reading drops because of power requirements(plasmas would overheat, 8G is a bit better in this matter though). This has no affect on minimum luminance. 100% APL white measurement is not given.

White reading drops because of power requirements(plasmas would overheat, 8G is a bit better in this matter though). This has no affect on minimum luminance. 100% APL white measurement is not given.

I think we all know that. The numbers are just kind of too cluttered in Swedish talk! They do seem rather excited though. Lots of smiley faces and stuff... I guess that counts for 'something'? Hehe

http://www.component.se/forum/index.php?showtopic=6774&st=75

Not sure if this helps but here is some translation from the link above. The 4 charts in post #76 are

1. Standard (out of the box) setting with (colorspace?) 1
2. Standard (out of the box) setting with (colorspace?) 2
3. Gamma
4. Greyscale

In post #78 there are some more charts after he did some changes. He changed the secondarycolors (yellow, magenta and cyan) starting out from colorspace 2

He adjusted gammut and whites and got the charts in #78

He did not do a full ISF calibration. In other words he only used the settings anyone can adjust for themselves.

As you can imagine this stuff is not easy to translate with so many expressions being rather unuseful outside forums like this.

I think we all know that. The numbers are just kind of too cluttered in Swedish talk! They do seem rather excited though. Lots of smiley faces and stuff... I guess that counts for 'something'? HeheI guess so as it beats any flat panel display out there by a very large margin.

For instance, the best calibrated Panasonic 50PZ750u contrast ratio I have seen is 1978:1....with a 34ft-l 100% window max. That places the minimum luminance at around 0.0172 ft-l...... if my math is correct.

He did not do a full ISF calibration. In other words he only used the settings anyone can adjust for themselves.An 8000:1 contrast ratio without a true ISF calibration!!!! Can anyone be upset about that?

I think we all know that. The numbers are just kind of too cluttered in Swedish talk! They do seem rather excited though. Lots of smiley faces and stuff... I guess that counts for 'something'? Hehe

The isf calibrator says that 8G is much better than 5000ex and the best set that he has calibrated so far. (big shock :eek: ) There is also comment from a person who has seen 8G and SED. According to him 8G is nice, but not as nice as SED.

An 8000:1 contrast ratio without a true ISF calibration!!!! Can anyone be upset about that?

Well 8000:1 is no 16000:1. To beat CRT, SED or LED LCD, 8G needs to be a lot better.

The isf calibrator says that 8G is much better than 5000ex and the best set that he has calibrated so far. (big shock :eek: ) There is also comment from a person who has seen 8G and SED. According to him 8G is nice, but not as nice as SED.

Yes, the Pioneer Pro-FHD1 was really a celebrated TV among ISF and professional reviewers.. not really a surprise there. And even I could tell the 8g killed both the Pro-FHD1 and the 1140 in the same room.

Maybe SED is nicer. Maybe SED is worse. I'll never know until I can get both side by side.

Well 8000:1 is no 16000:1. To beat CRT, SED or LED LCD, 8G needs to be a lot better.

Well at least in dynamic conrast measurements. I have yet to see SED, LED measurements.

Like I said, the best CRTs still have a better on/off than a Pioneer 5080. But overall contrast beats any CRT I've ever seen.

Blegh, I am sure someone by now got their Plasma TV ISF'd and can give us some feedback in english. What would be interesting is if you can get some other plasma Tv 'stats' from that same swedish calibrator. Then we really can start comparing.

I don't want to debunk any ISF calibrations, Swedish reports or whatever, but I think we should put more trust in what our eyes are telling us. I see much darker blacks than any other plasma and I see brighter whites than any other plasma. Granted the differential on the black side is greater, but the whites are still whiter than any other plasma I've seen.

An 8000:1 contrast ratio without a true ISF calibration!!!! Can anyone be upset about that?

Don't think so!

Just to clarify. The guy who did these measurements are an ISF calibrator although his partner in the store does most of the calibrations. He explicitly mentions that he did not do an ISF calibration for now but rather just used the regular controls.

I don't want to debunk any ISF calibrations, Swedish reports or whatever, but I think we should put more trust in what our eyes are telling us. I see much darker blacks than any other plasma and I see brighter whites than any other plasma. Granted the differential on the black side is greater, but the whites are still whiter than any other plasma I've seen.

Oh no question Ken. I am just more curious than anything. I've seen what I've seen. I don't need to be swayed either way because I know how amazing the 8gs look and how they deal with blacks. But to know what I'm looking at and what's measured is just interesting.

Even with all this, I know there's only one digital TV I am even remotely interested in at the moment. And by September there will be a few more. Everyone else arguing over numbers and such can do that all day long... I am just here out of curiosity. And the fact I get paid to do pretty much little work. :)

Well at least in dynamic conrast measurements. I have yet to see SED, LED measurements.

Like I said, the best CRTs still have a better on/off than a Pioneer 5080. But overall contrast beats any CRT I've ever seen.

There's a samsung paper floating around. In 2006 Samsung got 10000:1-20000:1(content dependant) static with 64 dimming zones and 32" 1000:1 panel. With more dimming zones, larger panel sizes and 8G panels, numbers get better.

There's a samsung paper floating around. In 2006 Samsung got 10000:1-20000:1(content dependant) static with 64 dimming zones and 32" panel. With more dimming zones and larger panel sizes, numbers get better.

Yes, but until someone out here gets one home and gets it measured I'll stay calm. I'll wait till some Swedish ISF calibrator measures it... maybe then I can believe it. ;)

Or better yet. I want to see it myself.

I don't want to debunk any ISF calibrations, Swedish reports or whatever, but I think we should put more trust in what our eyes are telling us. I see much darker blacks than any other plasma and I see brighter whites than any other plasma. Granted the differential on the black side is greater, but the whites are still whiter than any other plasma I've seen.Yes, the 8G Pioneers have the best out there compared to any of flat panel....and by a long shot. A greater than 8000:1 on/off contrast ratio from a basic calibrated 5080 panel tells you the minimum luminance level is below 0.005 ft-l. A truly ISF calibrated set will be lower and in the range my contact spotted me on. What other flat panel can get that low today? It should be interesting to see what the measured ANSI ratio is when HT Mag posts their review.

Yes, the 8G Pioneers have the best out there compared to any of flat panel....and by a long shot. A greater than 8000:1 on/off contrast ratio from a basic calibrated 5080 panel tells you the minimum luminance level is below 0.005 ft-l. A truly ISF calibrated set will be lower and in the range my contact spotted me on. What other flat panel can get that low today? It should be interesting to see what the measured ANSI ratio is when HT Mag posts their review.

So D, an ISF calibration can lower the minimum luminence level?

Yes, the 8G Pioneers have the best out there compared to any of flat panel....and by a long shot. A greater than 8000:1 on/off contrast ratio from a basic calibrated 5080 panel tells you the minimum luminance level is below 0.005 ft-l. A truly ISF calibrated set will be lower and in the range my contact spotted me on. What other flat panel can get that low today? It should be interesting to see what the measured ANSI ratio is when HT Mag posts their review.

I wouldn't bet on that 0.005 just yet. Sharp D92 measures 0.006. And that is without any help from leds ;)

I wouldn't bet on that 0.005 just yeat. Sharp D92 measures 0.006. And that is without any help from leds ;)

It does?! I swore looking at my buddy's Sharp it didn't knock me off my feet in terms of black.

It does?! I swore looking at my buddy's Sharp it didn't knock me off my feet in terms of black.

Maybe he didn't know how to calibrate his set?

Sharp LC-52D92U 14.09(93) 0.006(.046) 2348(2022)1968 JUL 2007

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=3999036&&#post3999036

Maybe he didn't know how to calibrate his set?

Sharp LC-52D92U 14.09(93) 0.006(.046) 2348(2022)1968 JUL 2007

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=3999036&&#post3999036

Oh that's why... yes. You could probably get a pretty good black if you totally sacrificed white. Are you reading that 14.09 White measurement? That is LOW. Way too dark for any setting and even with that great black you'd miss out on all the punch.

What does that (.046) mean? I am guessing the black level measurement to get the best contrast ratio?

You want your whites to hit around 40-50 ftl. And w/ a white screen at 14.09 and it being an LCD... I can only picture how dim and flat tht would look.

Hometheatermag is flawed in that sense. They measure the lowest black level possible... dropping the backlight. They do not measure the black level when they set it to optimum settings.

Yes, but until someone out here gets one home and gets it measured I'll stay calm. I'll wait till some Swedish ISF calibrator measures it... maybe then I can believe it. ;)

Or better yet. I want to see it myself.The only way i can see what the village idiot post is when someone quotes him.

Let look at what he posted....

10,000:1 to 20,000:1 is not static. A static ratio does not vary depending on what's on the screen. A static ratio is on/off. So 20,000:1 is an excellent static ratio. However, what is the reading of the 100% window?

Oh that's why... yes. You could probably get a pretty good black if you totally sacrificed white. Are you reading that 14.09 White measurement? That is LOW. Way too dark for any setting and even with that great black you'd miss out on all the punch.

What does that (.046) mean? I am guessing the black level measurement to get the best contrast ratio?

Well Pioneer PRO FHD1 isn't much better with 17.75 measurement. 0.046 is torch mode black level.

Well Pioneer PRO FHD1 isn't much better with 17.75 measurement. 0.046 is torch mode black level.

But the Pioneer Pro-Fhd1 is a PLASMA. If you looked at the white measurements in a window the white would be much higher and watchable.

LCDs don't limit the 'all white' window. The brightest white you'll get w/ the backlight set to dimmest will be what you get on an all white window for an LCD. On a Plasma it shoots up quite dynamically.

So D, an ISF calibration can lower the minimum luminence level?It can lower the measurment reading. If your 5IRE to 20IRE is floating in the 7,500K+ range, that measurement will be higher when compared to a 5IRE to 20IRE measurment in the 6500K to 6800K range.

It can lower the measurment reading. If your 5IRE to 20IRE is floating in the 7,500K+ range, that measurement will be higher when compared to a 5IRE to 20IRE measurment in the 6500K to 6800K range.

How about... 0Ire? :)

How about... 0Ire? :)I've never seen anyone who can calibrate 0IRE to D65.

I've never seen anyone who can calibrate 0IRE to D65.

Hmm so when people take measurements, they don't measure 0IRE? I thought that was the case. I am sure a D65 calibration would help you down on the accuracy and darkness on the low-end of a scale any given like scene in a movie.

But like minimum luminence is 0ire correct?

Minimum luminance is 0IRE. Measuring 0IRE is easy. Calibrating 0IRE is the hard part.

Minimum luminance is 0IRE. Measuring 0IRE is easy. Calibrating 0IRE is the hard part.

But it is possible. That's what I am asking. Does a calibration affect what you see at 0ire. Hence lowering your percieved black level.

I am guessing it's sort of like using the 'color temperatures' right? High will give you a bluish more higher black level reading... and low will give you a lower black level reading? Is that what you mean?

Anything is possible but no one has actually achieved it yet. Yes calibration affects the perceived black level. yes it's sort of like using the color temp controls.

BBL. Going to watch Samuel <censored> Jackson in Black Snake Moan.

I went to Bestbuy, used the settings here and can't really understand what the fuss is all about with these new Pioneers, better blacks and thats it, nothing else. Not worth the extra dollar.

Maybe he didn't know how to calibrate his set?

Sharp LC-52D92U 14.09(93) 0.006(.046) 2348(2022)1968 JUL 2007

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=3999036&&#post3999036

Wouldn't care if the LCD had the best measured black levels in the history of display technology, they're still LCDs and carry all the LCD baggage with them.

BTW... Transformers kicked ass!!!!!

You saw it already? wow! I am seeing it tomorrow for a midnight showing...can't wait!

You saw it already? wow! I am seeing it tomorrow for a midnight showing...can't wait!

Yea. My job has some perks for sure. Pre-screening last... Thursday I believe. :) Besides the ability to web surf in between like 20 minutes of work per hour I say that's my fav perk.

Besides some weird decisions to shove the shallow human storylines in our face for more than I wanted instead of giving the 'bad bots' a chance to have personality... the effects are wickedly good. Best I've seen in a movie.

HD Format's gonna love this one.

the effects are wickedly good. Best I've seen in a movie.

HD Format's gonna love this one.

Cool. I'm gonna watch that one. :)

Yea. My job has some perks for sure. Pre-screening last... Thursday I believe. :) Besides the ability to web surf in between like 20 minutes of work per hour I say that's my fav perk.

Besides some weird decisions to shove the shallow human storylines in our face for more than I wanted instead of giving the 'bad bots' a chance to have personality... the effects are wickedly good. Best I've seen in a movie.

HD Format's gonna love this one.

Thanks for posting your impressions! I am psyched about this one!


Hey gizlaroc, since you think D-Nice's settings are poor, do you mind posting what settings you are using? I actually do own the 5080HD and will compare the settings myself, unbiasedly (is that even a word??), and post my impressions.

My settings are poor for PAL sources. I'm working with those guys to come up with some good settings for both PAL and HD sources.

Meanwhile, UK poster bumtious has posted some nice no input pictures of our equivalent Panasonic PX75, Pioneer Elite 950, and Pioneer Elite 1140:

507 vs PX70 (note the retention on the px70 from the menu on for 10 secs) (not a lot of difference in brightness)
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1142/688568201_dba12cede2_o.jpg

Just to prove brightness levels
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1007/689432358_8881a161d6_o.jpg

4280 vs PX70 (If this is not conclusive dont know what is) ( YES THE PIONEER IS ON blue light above pana)
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1115/689432946_41eb82148d_o.jpg

My settings are poor for PAL sources. I'm working with those guys to come up with some good settings for both PAL and HD sources.

Meanwhile, UK poster bumtious has posted some nice no input pictures of our equivalent Panasonic PX75, Pioneer Elite 950, and Pioneer Elite 1140:

Oh, I am not insulting your settings, I am just calling him out. I want to see his settings on my own set with my own two eyes. Also, gizlaroc, please post a screen shot of a picture of the back of your Pio to prove it is a 8th gen ( I want to see the model and serial number, unless you don't really own one).

wow

wonder what FUD Sampo will bring once the pro reviews prove him wrong

hopefully he'll disappear like DM did after being proven a FUDmeister

Thanks for posting your impressions! I am psyched about this one!


Hey gizlaroc, since you think D-Nice's settings are poor, do you mind posting what settings you are using? I actually do own the 5080HD and will compare the settings myself, unbiasedly (is that even a word??), and post my impressions.

Yes, BTW D-nice's settings are for a dim situation.. i.e. movies. Griz doesn't watch in the dark... which explains why the black level drop is not as apparent.

My settings are poor for PAL sources. I'm working with those guys to come up with some good settings for both PAL and HD sources.

Meanwhile, UK poster bumtious has posted some nice no input pictures of our equivalent Panasonic PX75, Pioneer Elite 950, and Pioneer Elite 1140:

Those pics pretty much explain what I saw. And magnify that as if you're actually THERE and sitting.

The other sets were just glowing like a light bulb compared to the 8g. The 5080 also has a lower luminence level than the 4280 I believe.

There isn't much difference between the 5070 and the Panasonics in my comparison. And the 5080 absolutely destroyed the 1140 and Pro-FHD1.

Those pics weren't even taken in the complete darkness. Just wait till that comparison in the real world.

My settings are poor for PAL sources. I'm working with those guys to come up with some good settings for both PAL and HD sources.

Meanwhile, UK poster bumtious has posted some nice no input pictures of our equivalent Panasonic PX75, Pioneer Elite 950, and Pioneer Elite 1140:

That Pioneer glow is ugly and far from any color resembling black. Well I wouldn't expect anything more from a 0.0072 black level.

That Pioneer glow is ugly and far from any color resembling black. Well I wouldn't expect anything more from a 0.0072 black level.

Actually from that picture it looks pretty black. It's not in the complete dark though. But anyway... yes they still glow at 0ire. In the mean time, those Panasonics sure look to have those 8g black levels in "the bag".

It's not close... regardless if the Pioneers still have a luminence level.

I think Sampo is looking at the 507 not the 8G pic and attempting some kind of spin.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1115/689432946_41eb82148d_o.jpg

new pio on the top - new panny on the bottom

which do you want Sampo?

I think Sampo is looking at the 507 not the 8G pic and attempting some kind of spin.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1115/689432946_41eb82148d_o.jpg

The bottom isn't the 5070. It's the new Panasonic. The 5070 vs. the Panasonic is the first one.

Which I got a crap load of flack for when noting "There is not much difference between the minimum luminence levels."

These pictures pretty much sum up my findings. Thank God.

I think Sampo is looking at the 507 not the 8G pic and attempting some kind of spin.

new pio on the top - new panny on the bottom

which do you want Sampo?

Neither. Both plasmas glow in an ugly manner. That Pioneer bezel is black, picture is not.

the first in the set of three is the 507 not the pic I posted
I edited it to make it more clear

Neither. Both plasmas glow in an ugly manner.

you do understand that the pic is severely overexposed as well?
the black will be much darker in person
your spin is beyond ridiculous

The light meter I use for dark display contrast ratio calculations was broken. All I can say is that the on/off ratio something greater than 2000:1 for the 5080 I just worked on.

The light meter I use for dark display contrast ratio calculations was broken. All I can say is that the on/off ratio something greater than 2000:1 for the 5080 I just worked on.

Impressed UMR?

The light meter I use for dark display contrast ratio calculations was broken. All I can say is that the on/off ratio something greater than 2000:1 for the 5080 I just worked on.

Were you able to get an ANSI CR measurement?

I wonder what it takes for someone to reach such a level of pitiful?

The evolution of such a sad case would make for an interesting read.

Impressed UMR?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10928626&&#post10928626

Were you able to get an ANSI CR measurement?

I did not see any point in it. Blacks looked black unless the screen was mostly black.

I did not see any point in it. Blacks looked black unless the screen was mostly black.

And so the bubble bursted. I think that some of you owe an apology to Auditor55.

\We owe him nothing. If anyone owes him an apology it should be Canon and Toshiba for making him wait for so long. For all the hard work and preaching for that tech it sure hasn't given him any 'perks'.

Pretty one sided relationship.

And until SED can be measured from the likes of a guy like UMR... the blacks on that thing can be a blackhole or as white as a marshmellow for all 'we' care. Same goes for any display tech. And by the way, I've been hearing that SED in the dark did glow by people that have seen the tech.

"I would say his 5080 is among some of the best displays on the market. The processing appeared to be of very high quality like that found in high $ front projectors. The black levels were very low and the colors were excellent. I have attached my report information.

I was not able to measure the contrast ratio with a good light meter because it was broken, but the on/off contrast ratio is definitely higher than 2000:1."

Of course that statement isn't quoted by you either. Surprise... surprise... can someone give me a bubble blower?

I did not see any point in it. Blacks looked black unless the screen was mostly black.

Thanks. Sounds like quite a set. Can't wait to see what the black level actual
measures. And with no Black Crush confirmed, I bet the shadow detail is
amazing.


And so the bubble bursted. I think that some of you owe an apology to Auditor55.

Man you are either obnoxious or plain stupid - or both.

Hey gizlaroc, since you think D-Nice's settings are poor, do you mind posting what settings you are using? I actually do own the 5080HD and will compare the settings myself, unbiasedly (is that even a word??), and post my impressions.

I don't think D-Nices settings are poor at all, I was given some settings by Bumtious on the UK forum last night that were passed on to him by D-Nice and they are nearly identical to the ones I am using for Bluray.


This is what I am using for BluRay....

Contrast 34
Brightness +1
Color -4
Tint 0
Sharpness -10

Colour Temp. Low-Mid

R 0
Y +6
G -4
C 0
B 0
M +2

Enhancer Mode: 2
Gamma 3
Colour Space: 2
I-P Mode 1


Everything not listed is off.

And this is what I am using for Sky, output 1080i on SD and HD over HDMI...

contrast 30
Brightness 0
Colour -6
tint 0
Sharpness +10

Everything Off

Enhance mode 2
Gamma 3

Colur Temp Mid-Low

Cyan -6
Blue +6
magenta +9

Colour Space 2

I-P Mode 1

Drive 2

Oh, I am not insulting your settings, I am just calling him out. I want to see his settings on my own set with my own two eyes. Also, gizlaroc, please post a screen shot of a picture of the back of your Pio to prove it is a 8th gen ( I want to see the model and serial number, unless you don't really own one).

Why do you feel the need to call me out??
What has upset you so much??

I am not taking my screen off the wall to take a picture for you Nonce, and I don't see why I have to prove to you that I have a screen anyway, the guys on the forum that I posted on know me and know I have it.

I have scanned the paperwork for it just to keep you happy, will it keep you happy??

Send me a PM and I will give you all the settings for the PHD, including RGB drive and cut off, sub bright, sub contrast etc. etc.
You can then compare your screen poroperly, maybe an idea to enter them under a couple of blocks you are not using though like Dynamic and Cool, as our black starts at 0v compared with yours at 7.5v for SD, unless you moved away from that when DVD etc. came out?
You may have to drop black level a bit, but will give you an idea on colour etc.

That's crazy.

A great uk user with 5 thousand and more posts like Giz have to put online the receipt of his 428.

And poor user like greenland who doesn't own a 8G Pio, and probably never saw one with his own eyes has the courage to insult him.

What a shame guys. :(

Man you are either obnoxious or plain stupid - or both.


Or he is Auditor55 :D

Neither. Both plasmas glow in an ugly manner. That Pioneer bezel is black, picture is not.


So what tv do you recommend? Rear projection crt? 32in tube tv? Is that you Artwood? :confused: ;) :p

So what tv do you recommend? Rear projection crt? 32in tube tv? Is that you Artwood? :confused: ;) :p

LN70F91BD

Plasma TV's are not cookie cutter designs. You cannot take video settings from one users Pioneer plasma and compare them to another identical model plasma. There's slight differences in each plasma. If you have a Pioneer plasma professionally tuned even without touching the service menu, plasma A will not look the same as Plasma B with identical settings.

Yet, it seems many of the so called experts here think matching settings on the same model plasma will duplicate an identical picture on a different plasma of the same model. That's absurd!

I've yet to see a Panasonic out-do a Pioneer. Im not saying the Panny's are bad TV's, I may own one soon. But the says still holds, "It's not a Pioneer, but it isn't bad".

Consumer Reports begs to differ with your opinion. Two Panasonics beat your Pioneer and Pioneer was bested by Hitachi of all brands and a couple more. Pioneer seems to have a cult following like Apple. The only people who think Pioneer's are the greatest, people who paid too much and sellers wanting to make higher profit margins on an already overpriced plasma.

Plasma TV's are not cookie cutter designs. You cannot take video settings from one users Pioneer plasma and compare them to another identical model plasma. There's slight differences in each plasma. If you have a Pioneer plasma professionally tuned even without touching the service menu, plasma A will not look the same as Plasma B with identical settings.

Yet, it seems many of the so called experts here think matching settings on the same model plasma will duplicate an identical picture on a different plasma of the same model. That's absurd!


Thank you!!

I wish people would get this, this is why I said if I gave Nonce my PH settings to use another block on his screen.

Plasma TV's are not cookie cutter designs. You cannot take video settings from one users Pioneer plasma and compare them to another identical model plasma. There's slight differences in each plasma. If you have a Pioneer plasma professionally tuned even without touching the service menu, plasma A will not look the same as Plasma B with identical settings.

Yet, it seems many of the so called experts here think matching settings on the same model plasma will duplicate an identical picture on a different plasma of the same model. That's absurd! ;)

The end user's home/commercial set-up/environment is also unique, which has a significant impact & major influence regarding what settings/adjustments should be made to any panel to optimize performance.

Yet, it seems many of the so called experts here think matching settings on the same model plasma will duplicate an identical picture on a different plasma of the same model. That's absurd!No one has said you will get and identical picture if you use someone elses settings. However, you will get a far more accurate picture when compared to the standard out of the box settings.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10928626&&#post10928626Nice report umr. You didn't break the PR-670, did you?

That Pioneer glow is ugly and far from any color resembling black. Well I wouldn't expect anything more from a 0.0072 black level.

The blacks I saw were exceedingly close to CRT blacks and owners have reported the same thing. I seriously doubt too many people would be complaining at this point about black levels. Everyone that's seen these panels at shows, in the home and in retail sites under proper lighting conditions have said the same thing.

Time to troll in some other galaxy Sampo. You are boring, factually incorrect on so many things and a supreme spreader of FUD. You serve no purpose whatsoever.

You shall be gone shortly.

The blacks I saw were exceedingly close to CRT blacks and owners have reported the same thing. I seriously doubt too many people would be complaining at this point about black levels. Everyone that's seen these panels at shows, in the home and in retail sites under proper lighting conditions have said the same thing.

Time to troll in some other galaxy Sampo. You are boring, factually incorrect on so many things and a supreme spreader of FUD. You serve no purpose whatsoever.

You shall be gone shortly.It's amazing he is still trying to hold on to that lame 0.0072 figure he calculated. His calculation is flawed and wrong....and the site he got it from confirms it.

The blacks I saw were exceedingly close to CRT blacks and owners have reported the same thing. I seriously doubt too many people would be complaining at this point about black levels. Everyone that's seen these panels at shows, in the home and in retail sites under proper lighting conditions have said the same thing.

Time to troll in some other galaxy Sampo. You are boring, factually incorrect on so many things and a supreme spreader of FUD. You serve no purpose whatsoever.

You shall be gone shortly.
In a completely dark room, the glow is less than the white that you pick up on an actual theatre screen (not home threatre, but commercial theatre). The screen produces a deeper black than what you see in a real theatre and I honestly don't see how anyone could complain about that.

With just a tiny bit of light in the same room, however, the appearance of black increases greatly. Panel glowing can only really be detected in a completely dark room. That's a pretty nice leap over other plasmas.

Consumer Reports begs to differ with your opinion. Two Panasonics beat your Pioneer and Pioneer was bested by Hitachi of all brands and a couple more. Pioneer seems to have a cult following like Apple. The only people who think Pioneer's are the greatest, people who paid too much and sellers wanting to make higher profit margins on an already overpriced plasma.
Good lord, Hans. Do you not get it? Do you enjoy remaining ignorant?!

1) Do you really believe Consumer Reports were testing these panels where it mattered?

2) More imporantly, Consumer Reports has not reviewed the 8th generation panels.

Stop bringing up that Consumer Reports issue. It makes you look bad...

Nice report umr. You didn't break the PR-670, did you?

No. My AEMC CA813 is dead. The PR-670 reported it could not read that low of light level. Very low light readings are not its forte.

I'm going to need you to handle the repair of replacement ASAP :)

Have you changed your mind about using ISFccc? The reason I ask is because the 8G Pioneer Elites have a 9 point gamma correction feature that will allow you to hit a 2.2 gamma curve with ease.....along with some other additional features.

I'm going to need you to handle the repair of replacement ASAP :)

Have you changed your mind about using ISFccc? The reason I ask is because the 8G Pioneer Elites have a 9 point gamma correction feature that will allow you to hit a 2.2 gamma curve with ease.....along with some other additional features.

I have not changed my mind on ISFccc.

Understood

I'm sorry, but you lost some credibility there. Consumer Reports is one of the last places I'd look for AV electronics reviews. One of their biggest problems with reviews in general is they take MSRP pricing into consideration significantly. This "value" rating affects a lot of products and lowers their ranking, just because of price. When I look for a product, I look for exactly what I want and try for the best that I can get, then I haggle on pricing.

I could easily say, you just couldn't get a good price on a Pioneer, that's why you don't like them.

Consumer Reports begs to differ with your opinion. Two Panasonics beat your Pioneer and Pioneer was bested by Hitachi of all brands and a couple more. Pioneer seems to have a cult following like Apple. The only people who think Pioneer's are the greatest, people who paid too much and sellers wanting to make higher profit margins on an already overpriced plasma.

you do understand that the pic is severely overexposed as well?
the black will be much darker in person
your spin is beyond ridiculous

Expect nothing less from this troll and spreader of FUD. It just amazes me that people will go to this length to embarrass themselves.

The forum moderator specifically stated, on many occasions, that he should be contacted right away if Sampo should reappear. He's clearly back in his latest forum persona #7 or #8.. or who knows how many by now.

LN70F91BD

I got him drop-kicked from the forum a couple weeks ago when I sniffed out his odor on the Samsung 81 Series Anticipation thread. Make no mistake about it, as time has made abundantly clear, he has a financial stake in the success of Samsung LCDs. It was the icing on the cake when he linked to a foreign tech blog/website which contained a press release regarding the new upcoming Samsung 81 Series LED LCDs. What was most curious about his linkage to the article/press release was that on that very same page of the website/blog, there was a listing of links of 'tech talk around the globe', and nearly every one of them linked back to his specific posts in the Samsung thread on this avsforum. :eek:

His posts on that thread were deleted by the moderator, so those links are gone, but if there was any doubt as to what this guy has been up to, that cemented it for me.


ps: notice how he doesn't even bother to deny who he is anymore? Most new posters who turn out to be falsely accused of being someone else, protest with great offense. Not rogan1972. He always stays on message. The message of "Pioneer is bad".

We owe him nothing. If anyone owes him an apology it should be Canon and Toshiba for making him wait for so long. For all the hard work and preaching for that tech it sure hasn't given him any 'perks'.

Pretty one sided relationship.

And until SED can be measured from the likes of a guy like UMR... the blacks on that thing can be a blackhole or as white as a marshmellow for all 'we' care. Same goes for any display tech. And by the way, I've been hearing that SED as well in the dark did glow as well by people that have seen the tech.

"I would say his 5080 is among some of the best displays on the market. The processing appeared to be of very high quality like that found in high $ front projectors. The black levels were very low and the colors were excellent. I have attached my report information.

I was not able to measure the contrast ratio with a good light meter because it was broken, but the on/off contrast ratio is definitely higher than 2000:1."

Of course that statement isn't quoted by you either. Surprise... surprise... can someone give me a bubble blower?

It doesn't pay to argue with guys like this. His agenda is and has always been very obvious. He will make innane remarks that fly in the face of virtually everyone elses. He will lie by telling us he 'returned' a display he never owned. He is being payed by his employer to spread this FUD and he insists on making a fool of himself on a daily basis.

However, he will be gone very shortly but of course will reemerge with whatever alias he chooses in the future. He will then continue to destroy threads and spread FUD...he's very good at that. :rolleyes:

The fact is, and I hope you are reading this Sampo, you will not deter ONE person from buying what most consider to be the finest flat panel display on the market! Your efforts to spread FUD are for naught. :D

Consumer Reports begs to differ with your opinion. Two Panasonics beat your Pioneer and Pioneer was bested by Hitachi of all brands and a couple more. Pioneer seems to have a cult following like Apple. The only people who think Pioneer's are the greatest, people who paid too much and sellers wanting to make higher profit margins on an already overpriced plasma.

So Hans, have you seen the 8g Pioneers? Thoughts?

The forum moderator specifically stated, on many occasions, that he should be contacted right away if Sampo should reappear. He's clearly back in his latest forum persona #7 or #8.. or who knows how many by now.



I got him drop-kicked from the forum a couple weeks ago when I sniffed out his odor on the Samsung 81 Series Anticipation thread. Make no mistake about it, as time has made abundantly clear, he has a financial stake in the success of Samsung LCDs. It was the icing on the cake when he linked to a foreign tech blog/website which contained a press release regarding the new upcoming Samsung 81 Series LED LCDs. What was most curious about his linkage to the article/press release was that on that very same page of the website/blog, there was a listing of links of 'tech talk around the globe', and nearly every one of them linked back to his specific posts in the Samsung thread on this avsforum. :eek:

His posts on that thread were deleted by the moderator, so those links are gone, but if there was any doubt as to what this guy has been up to, that cemented it for me.


ps: notice how he doesn't even bother to deny who he is anymore? Most new posters who turn out to be falsely accused of being someone else, protest with great offense. Not rogan1972. He always stays on message. The message of "Pioneer is bad".

Nice find! I mentioned that sooner or later the truth would come out on this fraud.
The funny thing is that his innane posts won't prevent one person from buying the 8g Pioneers. ;)

The other funny thing is that you can sense his desperation at this point. These panels are out and have lived up to all the hype. He's running scared now! :D

I had him slating the Panasonic PX7X range on the avforums too.
And again he shows his head on there and here as soon as I mentioned the points I was not happy with, although I have never seen him link or join in the thread where I said what a pile of shite the Samsung 1080p panel is that I bought a couple of weeks back. :)

Nice find! I mentioned that sooner or later the truth would come out on this fraud.
The funny thing is that his innane posts won't prevent one person from buying the 8g Pioneers. ;)

The other funny thing is that you can sense his desperation at this point. These panels are out and have lived up to all the hype. He's running scared now! :D Now he is on the UK forum:
Most of the people are idiots there. AVSforum degenerates normal people to extremist trolls. There are good subforums with good people, but lcd/plasma subforums are some of the worst. For me AVS forum is just for having some fun with stupid US people.

Now he is on the UK forum:

Not American. Thinks we're 'stupid US people'.

Hehe.. it's kind of funny now. Well at least I got something to chuckle about. Oi. Just oi. Sad thing is I'm having just as much fun as he is. Great representative for Samsung electronics no doubt.

So Hans, have you seen the 8g Pioneers? Thoughts?

Yes I have. I viewed them at Magnolia. The Pioneer Elites are very nice. The 8G non Elite is better than last years model but not leaps and bounds ahead of 7G.

I agree with the guy who haggles over price.

I would also like to point out that the Panasonic 50px600U was rated much higher the the 50PX60U in Consumer reports. Out of 17 plasmas the 600U was 1st and 3rd while the 60U was 10th or 11th. Last years Pioneer was 8th.

Many have assumed the Panasonic plasmas were all the same glass with extra features as you climb up the line. This is not true. The 600U has a much better picture but most stores only carry the 60U. When Pioneer owners think of Panasonic, they think mostly of the 60U for comparison. The 600U had lower viewing availability. I realize the new Panasonic's are out but I have the 600U from last years model for my point of reference.

I've always like the Pioneer Elites. In the past, non Elites have been hit and miss in my opinion. I have yet to see a bad Pioneer Elite. It's nice to see Pioneer getting more competitive on price (prices paid, not MSRP) with the new models.

I finally got to see the 5080 today and Magnolia. Very nice picture. Among the best I have seen from Pioneer. However, it is not a great leap from the other displays that were hooked up to the same feed. I didn't think that the blacks were much better if at all to what I get from my Gregg Loewen calibrated Panny 50PHD7UY. It is a very nice set but not the be all and end all.

Yes I have. I viewed them at Magnolia. The Pioneer Elites are very nice. The 8G non Elite is better than last years model but not leaps and bounds ahead of 7G.

I've owned both and the 8G is a significant upgrade.

Just a quick footnote for the Pioneer fanboys. I have given haggling tips for an AVS member who is planning on purchasing a new 8G Pioneer Elite. I think it's the 50" model. I've shifted to mostly buying online these days but I used to haggle on everything when it came to electronics.

I'm not against Pioneer. Only the Elite's have caused me to say "wow" that's a great picture.

Just a quick footnote for the Pioneer fanboys. I have given haggling tips for an AVS member who is planning on purchasing a new 8G Pioneer Elite. I think it's the 50" model. I've shifted to mostly buying online these days but I used to haggle on everything when it came to electronics.

I'm not against Pioneer. Only the Elite's have caused me to say "wow" that's a great picture.
The panels are the same, though. The non-Elite 8g panels are superior to any previous Elite as well.

The differences the Elite bring to the table only become significant when an Elite has been fully calibrated.

The panels are the same, though. The non-Elite 8g panels are superior to any previous Elite as well.

The differences the Elite bring to the table only become significant when an Elite has been fully calibrated.

dark, your pictures as well as your detailed imrpessions are more than enough. Hans is just going all over the place. He shops based on "consumer reports" and judges black level differences as absolutes in places w/ no remote or darkness.

"The elites are good!" "The non elites are bad!"

The only reason the non-elites are bad are because they're closing in on Panasonic prices... that's all.

I've sold my 5070 because after seeing the 5080, the blacks on the 5070 just were way too much to live with, knowing there was something so much better.

The difference between our opinion and Hans is we've both seen both in ideal home theater lit conditions as well as owned these TVs. It has nothing to do with "justifying" anything... which is his arguement for anyone who adores Pioneer Plasmas.

Hansy Boy has bragged about what a great bargin price he paid for his new Panny. Since he got it, he keeps making repeated trips back to the Pioneer Threads, to keep on warning people against what they might see for theirselves, in a Pioneer, or Gasp, actually buy for theirselves. Hansy Boy is very worried that some of you might make the terrible mistake of deciding for yourselves, and purchasing for yourselves what you actually decide for yourselves. Who are you going to trust, Hansy Boy or those lying eyes of yours!. Or, is he just overcompensating for not really been all that pleased with his new Panny. Why else is he out every night in the singles bars bragging about how he has the best new wife in the whole world waiting for him at home. :D

...

The Elites have two areas where they are improved as far as I can tell, one is the ability to calibrate gamma etc. with ISFccc software and the correct tools and knowledge, and the other area that is of use is Colour Mode 2, which is a bit more accurate than the standard mode on the non Elites.

To say the Elites look far superior in a store is just nonsense as I bet the benefits won't have been used.

The Elites have two areas where they are improved as far as I can tell, one is the ability to calibrate gamma etc. with ISFccc software and the correct tools and knowledge, and the other area that is of use is Colour Mode 2, which is a bit more accurate than the standard mode on the non Elites.

To say the Elites look far superior in a store is just nonsense as I bet the benefits won't have been used.

Of course he wouldn't understand that... "Consumer Reports" voted his opinion higher than anyone elses. Out of 10 Hans ranked 3 while the truth ranked 4.

Number 1 was Paris Hilton's and 2 was Cookie monster's.

Average consumers... not my highest grade in dependability.

The Elites have two areas where they are improved as far as I can tell, one is the ability to calibrate gamma etc. with ISFccc software and the correct tools and knowledge, and the other area that is of use is Colour Mode 2, which is a bit more accurate than the standard mode on the non Elites.

To say the Elites look far superior in a store is just nonsense as I bet the benefits won't have been used.Actually the US Pure line is set to Color space 2 by default. The Elite allows you to select the color space.

One thing I forgot to note on the UK forum is the US Elites have a mode that your XD series does not have....Pure. Everything about that mode is superior to what you can achieve per any calibration except the ISF modes.....including gamma ;)

Hansy Boy has bragged about what a great bargin price he paid for his new Panny. Since he got it, he keeps making repeated trips back to the Pioneer Threads, to keep on warning people against what they might see for theirselves, in a Pioneer, or Gasp, actually buy for theirselves. Hansy Boy is very worried that some of you might make the terrible mistake of deciding for yourselves, and purchasing for yourselves what you actually decide for yourselves. Who are you going to trust, Hansy Boy or those lying eyes of yours!. Or, is he just overcompensating for not really been all that pleased with his new Panny. Why else is he out every night in the singles bars bragging about how he has the best new wife in the whole world waiting for him at home. :D

...

You don't have to get personal, Greenland. Let's leave the wives out of this one. I've said that the Pioneer Elites are very good. I have never complained about the elites. If the Elite is the Mercedes than the non Elite's 5080 are the Chryslers. Last I checked, Mercedes sold Chrysler.

Why is nobody bragging here about the elites? Because most of you can't afford or do not have the Elite. It seems Elite owners are happy and the non Elite owners want everybody to know how great their Chryslers are. It's not the Mercedes.

Footnote, a Hitachi beat my 600U in the Consumer Reports test. The top dog was the 58" 600U.

I certainly will abdicate to the many people here that know far more than I do about plasma displays. After reading this entire thread I decided to go to BB and see what I could see. They had a 50" LG, and 5080 and a 6070 all sitting together. Now I realize that the buyer is at the mercy of the ability of the sales force to set up a given display, and have been told repeatedly at BB, CC, Ultimate, that all displays are straight out of the box. Of course this doesn't mean a customer hasn't fiddeled with the settings. I will be buying a new plasma this year and really wanted to be wowed by the 5080 but it looked no better than the 6070 and both paled next to the LG in terms of sharpness of detail. Blacks looked the same to me.

OK. Back to the Topic of the thread. Has any conclusion being reach about the subject. Is the Pioneer Kuro line, not living up to what it was claimed to be. Are those who now own a Kuro satisfied with their sets, and do you feel that it mostly does what you were expecting. Have any of you who purchased from local stores, returned your sets, because they did not live up to your expectations. If you say you did, please give us details of where you bought it, how long you had it for, and what made you decide to take it back. I would like to keep the European owners out of this feedback, since there appears to be a whole lot of different issues over there, that are not in common with american standards.

I would like to hear from owners, to determine if if the Thread Title Question has any validity. Thanks :)

Yes, BTW D-nice's settings are for a dim situation.. i.e. movies. Griz doesn't watch in the dark... which explains why the black level drop is not as apparent.

I only watch in the dark and D-Nice's settings are rocking on my set, though I have that sharpness setting in the advance menu set to 2 instead of 3 (3 is too soft).

Thank you!!

I wish people would get this, this is why I said if I gave Nonce my PH settings to use another block on his screen.

My name is Nuance, but nice try. And I appreciate you posting your settings, but again, they look good with PAL so I don't expect them to look great here in the states. Nonetheless, I will try them.

Why do you feel the need to call me out??
What has upset you so much??

I am not taking my screen off the wall to take a picture for you Nonce, and I don't see why I have to prove to you that I have a screen anyway, the guys on the forum that I posted on know me and know I have it.

I have scanned the paperwork for it just to keep you happy, will it keep you happy??

Send me a PM and I will give you all the settings for the PHD, including RGB drive and cut off, sub bright, sub contrast etc. etc.
You can then compare your screen poroperly, maybe an idea to enter them under a couple of blocks you are not using though like Dynamic and Cool, as our black starts at 0v compared with yours at 7.5v for SD, unless you moved away from that when DVD etc. came out?
You may have to drop black level a bit, but will give you an idea on colour etc.

As for wanting a proof of purchase, people on forums make up stuff all the time, so proof that you own something is much better than just saying you do. Your pics were obviously not clear enough to prove that is the 4280, so, there you have it. I am not upset at you at all man (I think it is you that are getting upset, and what for? A proof of purchase is a very reasonable request consider the title and circumstances of this thread). I just like to see proof, no matter what the situation is. You provided it, for the most part. Thanks.

I am calling you out just as I would call anyone out would claims something is better than another. I just wanted proof and to try your settings on my own TV, which I will when I get home. I mean, think about it, there is a little battle going on here, so if no one is asked for proof or “called out” how can we determine is someone is just a liar or legit? D-Nice's settings have proved to work well here in the states, but you said they were bad (and you DID say that. Go back and read your posts). However, you failed to mention you use PAL (no, not everyone knew that). Also, his settings are for the SA8300HD box, not for your Sky box. Either way, I will test them both out and will take you up on your PM offer. See, I am a nice guy, not the other way around and am willing to try your settings so your point gets across. However, and no offense, I don’t think they will look as nice as D-Nice’s, but again, I will give them a fair shot.

That's crazy.

A great uk user with 5 thousand and more posts like Giz have to put online the receipt of his 428.

And poor user like greenland who doesn't own a 8G Pio, and probably never saw one with his own eyes has the courage to insult him.

What a shame guys. :(

I live in the US and don’t frequent UK forums, so his “5 thousand or more posts” is not common knowledge. Calm down. :rolleyes:

I certainly will abdicate to the many people here that know far more than I do about plasma displays. After reading this entire thread I decided to go to BB and see what I could see. They had a 50" LG, and 5080 and a 6070 all sitting together. Now I realize that the buyer is at the mercy of the ability of the sales force to set up a given display, and have been told repeatedly at BB, CC, Ultimate, that all displays are straight out of the box. Of course this doesn't mean a customer hasn't fiddeled with the settings. I will be buying a new plasma this year and really wanted to be wowed by the 5080 but it looked no better than the 6070 and both paled next to the LG in terms of sharpness of detail. Blacks looked the same to me.
I don't claim to know a lot about plasma TVs but I'm trying my best to learn what I can. I know that the last two Best Buys that I went to (Kansas City area and Akron, OH) both had the Pioneer 5080 impressively displayed. In fact, the last BB I went to in Akron gave me the impression that the 5080 was clearly the best television in the entire store. It was much harder to determine what might have been #2 from among Panasonic, Samsung and LG (all plasmas).

What is it with people comparing their in home calibrated plasmas to an off the shelf unit at BB or Magnolia?? That's just plain lame. It's an apples to oranges comparison.

There are so many variables that come into play when looking at a display at a store that it's almost absurd to make any opinion about it other then how the display looks cosmetically. "I like black glossy, I like silver, I like side speakers, I hate the bottom speakers." Any other comparison of picture quality is almost meaningless. You don't know what they've done to the signal, the set, the display room, etc... Unless you go to a trusted source with a show room and can verify how things are connected... even asking the magnolia or bb drones is risky in terms of what information you'll get.

Then to compare one of these sets to an in-home calibrated set, just doesn't make sense.


I finally got to see the 5080 today and Magnolia. Very nice picture. Among the best I have seen from Pioneer. However, it is not a great leap from the other displays that were hooked up to the same feed. I didn't think that the blacks were much better if at all to what I get from my Gregg Loewen calibrated Panny 50PHD7UY. It is a very nice set but not the be all and end all.

Simple Russ. I saw it at CES and it looked good. It looks very good now but not better than my set. It is a fine set and a definite improvement on prior Pio models. It is not the be all and end all however. IT did now wow me out of the box. My set still wows me and it is alomt 3 years old. It did not blow away the other sets in the room. It was not as good as the 42" 1080p Panny for example. I have been watching plasmas since 1998 and was hoping this baby would be better than it is. It is a great set, just not ground breaking IMHO. Im must say the the 1080p 42" Panny took me by surprise.

Why don't you look at an ISF calibrated 8G set....since you want to compare it to your 3 year old ISF calibrated Panasonic.

Why don't you look at an ISF calibrated 8G set....since you want to compare it to your 3 year old ISF calibrated Panasonic.

Because that would make too much sense and would be an apples to apples comparison....

I'm not saying your ISF Panasonic isn't a good plasma, but the comparison you make just doesn't make sense. Now if you said you are comparing it to an ISF 5080 in the same viewing conditions looking at the same materials and you didn't see an improvement, then that's something worth posting about.

I'm sure I can say my ISF 1140HD will look better then an out of the box 10th gen pio or 12th gen panny that I saw on the shelf in some random environment. Just not a fair comparision in my opinion.

Russ

Actually the US Pure line is set to Color space 2 by default. The Elite allows you to select the color space.

One thing I forgot to note on the UK forum is the US Elites have a mode that your XD series does not have....Pure. Everything about that mode is superior to what you can achieve per any calibration except the ISF modes.....including gamma ;)


What does the Pure mode do D-Nice? Is it a colour tweak, motion??

Actually the US Pure line is set to Color space 2 by default. The Elite allows you to select the color space.

One thing I forgot to note on the UK forum is the US Elites have a mode that your XD series does not have....Pure. Everything about that mode is superior to what you can achieve per any calibration except the ISF modes.....including gamma ;)What does this "pure" mode do?

And are you sure that they are set to colour space 2 by default? The calibration results posted seem to match up to colour space 1 (oversaturated greens, reds) whereas colour space 2 on the euro sets is almost perfectly matched to Rec. 709.

From the 7G Elite manual, I'm guessing similar intention in the 8G. I'm not sure what that all means or implies either...:

Pure - Reflects input signals as faithfully as possible.

It's almost absurd to base your opinion on buying a display because of how looks like at a B&M? To me there are only three things to base your buying choice on. Professional reviews, comments on this forum, and what your eyes tell you when you audition the prospective displays. How many times have posters on this forum asked for help in choosing their new display? How many times have they been told to let their own eyes make the choice? Many here have more ammunition between their ears than most when they go look at displays but the huge, vast, gigantic majority shop for displays like they shop for cars. Looks good, drives good, fits my budget, I'll take it. First impression is everything to most. Anybody that goes into the BB that I did today would have to be blind to consider the 5080 number one in PQ. I may know better but my neighbors won't.

From the 7G Elite manual, I'm guessing similar intention in the 8G. I'm not sure what that all means or implies either...:

Pure - Reflects input signals as faithfully as possible.
Does this just affect the colour reproduction though, or does it adjust the gamma etc as well? If so, I really hope the 1080p models in Europe have this, and I want to know why the x768 ones don't. A 2.7 "calibrated" gamma using the user-menus is ridiculously high.

If it's just colour reproduction, then it doesn't matter that it's gone.

Colour space 1 uncalibrated (appears to be what the US sets are stuck on) Colour space 2 uncalibrated, and Colour space 2 calibrated:
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa90/andrewfee/th_post-1251-1183120012_thumb.jpg (http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa90/andrewfee/post-1251-1183120012_thumb.jpg) http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa90/andrewfee/th_post-1251-1183120102_thumb.jpg (http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa90/andrewfee/post-1251-1183120102_thumb.jpg) http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa90/andrewfee/th_post-1251-1183121295_thumb.jpg (http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa90/andrewfee/post-1251-1183121295_thumb.jpg)

Very true and very unfortunate... the thing is, it's not restricted to TVs or electronics. I think in general the average consumer doesn't know better and it takes work and research to want to know better and most people don't have the time or care. So they go with what they think or heard or saw in their first impression. That's why stores like walmart and best buy are so successful. They appeal to the average consumer. The average consumer would never look at a forum. I'd like to believe that everyone who is here is not an average consumer by the pure fact that they are here, now it's a matter of wading through the garbage to get useful information that becomes the challenge.

It's almost absurd to base your opinion on buying a display because of how looks like at a B&M? To me there are only three things to base your buying choice on. Professional reviews, comments on this forum, and what your eyes tell you when you audition the prospective displays. How many times have posters on this forum asked for help in choosing their new display? How many times have they been told to let their own eyes make the choice? Many here have more ammunition between their ears than most when they go look at displays but the huge, vast, gigantic majority shop for displays like they shop for cars. Looks good, drives good, fits my budget, I'll take it. First impression is everything to most. Anybody that goes into the BB that I did today would have to be blind to consider the 5080 number one in PQ. I may know better but my neighbors won't.

I don't see the point in trying to convince anyone whether a set is as good as it really is or not. I've already been impressed with the 5080 to solidify my purchase of the 60 inch elite later this year. I've seen all kinds of sets in different settings and the few 5080's and 4280's I've seen have totally surprised me. These are the lowest end Pioneers, and yet, for me, they were much better than the other TV's I've seen. Believe me, the TV's I've compared them to were not crap either. I've seen enough TVs in different settings and nothing has impressed me more. The joke is, I'm more of a CRT fan, and I have been humbled by this TV's performance. Still, this is my impression after looking around.

In the end, whether someone else agrees or not is mute. In my mind, it's their loss if they haven't had the pleasure to experience the visuals that I've witnessed, and it only gets better with the elites. These TV's definitely have lots of flexibility if they can go from one extreme to the other on the desirability scale. For those saying they're much more expensive, exit the store and go somewhere else since it says a lot about them. This applies even if you're not interested in a Pio as your desired TV's price is probably inflated too. Remember too, the prices are going to go down in such stores, especially when the 1080P's start showing up. Recall the ridiculous prices BB and such were asking for Samsung's 65-series LCD"s, or even the new Pannys when they came out. It's how such electronic stores work.

One last thing: Only the impulsive, hype freak that relies solely on others has potential for bubble breaking. Even though I spend time reading impressions and such, I've made sure I've seen all interested TV's in numerous settings before I make any judgments. I've read a few comments here and, sometimes, I gotta shake my head. It seems on both sides of the field here, folks look for ways to facilitate their preconceptions. I've seen it enough times, and these are usually the folks who end up losing out the most. When the Panny's first came out, I wasn't impressed that much, but I knew I had to wait a few weeks for stores to break them in. Eventually the TV's started looking much better. Someone who looks for crap, would automatically "confirm" they're crap and move on without considering variables like calibration, content, viewing environment, etc. Heck, there are times when all tv's look exactly the same at BB and such, but I know better.

Enjoy.

With all due respect russwong, I didn't just fall off the apple cart. I saw the 60" model at CES which was tweeked pretty good. There is no question that the 5080 can look better calibrated. It didn't floor me as being much better than the best I have seen in plasma to date. I would have expected better out of the box performance given all the hype. I have seen many calibrated displays, been in control and production rooms and know what I am seeing. We will just have to agree to disagree. Sorry.

This article, though it may be bias because Pioneer held the event and thus set up the TVs, really puts my mind at ease. I know I made the right decision just when I watch the TV, but this article is the frosting on the cake! Sorry if it a re-post.

http://www.canadahifi.com/comments.php?id_entry=161

No worries, nothing to apologize for and no intentions of disrepect from me as well. The fact of the matter is you said the 5080 you saw at BB was not as good as your ISF display. Based on that information, it's pretty much a meaningless comparison.

Now you are adding that you saw a 60" that was tweaked and that you've seen many calibrated displays, that's great. I'd love to hear your impressions of a calibrated 5080. That would be a meaningful comparison. If at that point, you feel that it's not that great, then I think that would be useful to all the readers.

The other thing I might add is the 5080 is Pio's general model. In your own words, you are comparing the 5080 to the best you have seen in plasma to date and it was better, but not much better. Then to add that you think it can look better if it were calibrated, that would make it even better. Then add the possiblity of an Elite model.... or even a calibrated Elite model....

Well, I think you get the point. It's about what you are comparing and how you are comparing it, that's all. Do let us know if you see a calibrated 5080 or 1150, because I'm interested in that type of feedback.

Russ


With all due respect russwong, I didn't just fall off the apple cart. I saw the 60" model at CES which was tweeked pretty good. There is no question that the 5080 can look better calibrated. It didn't floor me as being much better than the best I have seen in plasma to date. I would have expected better out of the box performance given all the hype. I have seen many calibrated displays, been in control and production rooms and know what I am seeing. We will just have to agree to disagree. Sorry.

Ok it is late so I am gonna just say a few words here. As good as this tv is out of the box it is not even close to how good it can look! Once Jeff brought the grayscale to d65, and adjusted gamma, contrast and brightness, the tv's color was almost perfect. Green was a little off on paper but it was not very noticable, to the eyes on actual video material. The other colors were almost dead on. I will go into more detail later on, and Jeff did say he would post my calibration data, so for now all I will say is as good as this thing looks out of the box, it is not even close to what it can be. Oh yah and to anyone who mentions black crush with this tv, really needs to have their display done by jeff, Jeff said and I hope He dont mind me saying this, This tv has zero black crush. In fact Jeff said he thought the shadow detail on this set was better then most high quality CRT's. I highly recommend anyone who has this set give jeff a pm and book him, you dont know what your missing. Jeff it was a pleasure once again to have you in my home. My wife and I enjoyed your company very much, and the conversation was enjoyable. You once again worked magic on my display and I will always hire you in the future.
Pics will come tommrow. BTW we couldnt get a accurate measurement on contrast because his light meter broke.

Post 264 by Parasite at 12.02 AM this morning on the Official Pioneer 8G Kuro Setting Thread. This what he reports on how his calibration turned out. I think that should put an end to all this Pioneer Bubble Burst? rubbish. His words speak for themselves. Pioneer has delivered a terrific product. Read what he says about Black Crush. Case closed.

...

What does the Pure mode do D-Nice? Is it a colour tweak, motion??It is essentially a neutral A/V mode....no oversaturated colors (especially greens), a more "faithful" gamma curve, etc.

For instance, You guys, including myself, place the 5080 and UK 4080/5080/428XD/508XD's gamma setting to 3. Well gamma 3 on those models is comparable to gamma 2 with the Pure A/V mode. Setting an Elite in Pure mode to gamma 3 will unleash more details on the low IRE scale that you can ever achieve in the listed models above (except for ISFccc calibration).

Once you go Pure mode, you will not settle for anything else.

No worries, nothing to apologize for and no intentions of disrepect from me as well. The fact of the matter is you said the 5080 you saw at BB was not as good as your ISF display. Based on that information, it's pretty much a meaningless comparison.

Now you are adding that you saw a 60" that was tweaked and that you've seen many calibrated displays, that's great. I'd love to hear your impressions of a calibrated 5080. That would be a meaningful comparison. If at that point, you feel that it's not that great, then I think that would be useful to all the readers.

The other thing I might add is the 5080 is Pio's general model. In your own words, you are comparing the 5080 to the best you have seen in plasma to date and it was better, but not much better. Then to add that you think it can look better if it were calibrated, that would make it even better. Then add the possiblity of an Elite model.... or even a calibrated Elite model....

Well, I think you get the point. It's about what you are comparing and how you are comparing it, that's all. Do let us know if you see a calibrated 5080 or 1150, because I'm interested in that type of feedback.

Russ

Russ, I think you're getting the point when it comes to Pioneer fanboys. These cheapskates think their 5080 is as good as the Elite model, which pioneer PR people would quickly disagree with.

Even if you have your plasma professionally tuned by an ISF technician, you are at the mercy of content prooviders. If everybody has ESPN and we are all watching the game in HD, DirecTV, DISH and cable could all have a different picture. Why? Because the satellite signal is bounced up and down several times and each broadcaster uses different equipment. DISH may be to bright and DirecTV could have oversaturated colors and the tint could be way too red.

Since I know first hand the experts tuning the color for sporting events clearly have no idea what correct color is, everybody is screwed. The biggest offense by broadcasters has been turning the brightness up way too high. Your Pioneer 5080 will no be able to achieve deep blacks due to the ultra high brightness of the original broadcast.

The same goes for improperly tuned DVD's where the digital master has flawed colors, tints and brightness. DVD's are much more acurate than broadcast TV.

I have my serious doubts that a 3 year old Panasonic will look better than an 8th generation Pioneer. I don't care if the Panasonic is the professional series. Everybody here knows that I like Panasonic. Many think I dislike Pioneer. I dislike the price premium that Pioneer has been charging in the past over comparable brands.

Does this just affect the colour reproduction though, or does it adjust the gamma etc as well? Both
If so, I really hope the 1080p models in Europe have this, and I want to know why the x768 ones don't. A 2.7 "calibrated" gamma using the user-menus is ridiculously high. Pure mode has been available on the US Elite models since the 6Gs. It will not be on your LX models.

All US models are based off the 601/709 colorspace (which is the colorspace 2 setting). How accurately they match the given color points is a different story. Our Elite color points are more accurate than the non-Elites (pre and post calibration).

Russ, I think you're getting the point when it comes to Pioneer fanboys. These cheapskates think their 5080 is as good as the Elite model, which pioneer PR people would quickly disagree with.

Even if you have your plasma professionally tuned by an ISF technician, you are at the mercy of content prooviders. If everybody has ESPN and we are all watching the game in HD, DirecTV, DISH and cable could all have a different picture. Why? Because the satellite signal is bounced up and down several times and each broadcaster uses different equipment. DISH may be to bright and DirecTV could have oversaturated colors and the tint could be way too red.

Since I know first hand the experts tuning the color for sporting events clearly have no idea what correct color is, everybody is screwed. The biggest offense by broadcasters has been turning the brightness up way too high. Your Pioneer 5080 will no be able to achieve deep blacks due to the ultra high brightness of the original broadcast.

The same goes for improperly tuned DVD's where the digital master has flawed colors, tints and brightness. DVD's are much more acurate than broadcast TV.

I have my serious doubts that a 3 year old Panasonic will look better than an 8th generation Pioneer. I don't care if the Panasonic is the professional series. Everybody here knows that I like Panasonic. Many think I dislike Pioneer. I dislike the price premium that Pioneer has been charging in the past over comparable brands.You have some very valid points in this post. You are correct in saying that a non-Elite cannot match an Elite's PQ. It can come close, but it cannot match it as it lacks the additional picture controls.

Broadcasters actually broadcasting a correct picture??? I can agree here. Makes question the point of ISF calibration if most of the sources out there are sending out wacked signals.

DVDs are definitely more accurate compared to broadcast TV.

So if the 5080 is good out of the box but not nearly as good as it can be I ask, why? I mean why should I need somebody to work their magic. Why isn't there a factory setting that already includes grayscale at d65 and the brightness, gamma, and contrast adjusted to almost perfect color, and why do I need someone to adjust out black crush? Just wondering.

You have some very valid points in this post. You are correct in saying that a non-Elite can match an Elite's PQ. It can come close, but it cannot match it as it lacks the additional picture controls.
.

Did you perhaps mean to say that a non-Elite cannot match an Elite's PQ?.

.....Anybody that goes into the BB that I did today would have to be blind to consider the 5080 number one in PQ. I may know better but my neighbors won't.
Then there were at least three of us (total strangers to each other) who were in the BB I was in on Friday night who are blind. We all had the same conclusion... the Pioneer 5080 that they had looked noticeably better than any other TV in view.

BTW, I'm not a Pioneer fanboy or owner. I'll probably end up buying a Panny because they are more affordable. :(

The thing is.. it's really hard to judge PQ in any just/fair way unless you calibrate the TVs to specifications. That's why professional magazines or websites hold more merit to me than any impression on the AVS forums. They have a 'system' and the hands-on approach as well as a side by side comparison, watching video in the way they were meant to be seen.

Today, I was at work, looking over some video we did on a Sony LCD. I knew the LCDs blacks were a horrible blue. I know there was edge enhancement everywhere. I knew that the color temp was just way too high for it's own good and there was some crushing going on.

But how am I going to explain that to the 20 other people in the room that don't care? Those blue blacks didn't deter anyone. The edge enhancement was probably mistaken for 'razor sharpness'. The color temperature being high probably looked hip and pleasing to the eye with those 'bleach whites' everyone loves so much. The Sony name as well as the blazing brightness just amored them...

So I always take impressions like 'I saw this at the store' with a bit salt. Unless it's someone who I am familiar with. I've learned about all this stuff the hard way. Get these TVs in the dark and calibrated before making any absolute judgements. Having a professional review w/ ISF calibrating techniques and side by side comparisons for reference wouldn't hurt either.

Did you perhaps mean to say that a non-Elite cannot match an Elite's PQ?.
Yes. Sorry. I corrected the post. Thanks.

To an extent I agree that the Panasonic produces a sharp image than the Pio. The Pio sucked in aerial shots and I hope that they have taken care of all this in the 8th gen.

To an extent I agree that the Panasonic produces a sharp image than the Pio. The Pio sucked in aerial shots and I hope that they have taken care of all this in the 8th gen.

See it's stuff like this. How do I know whether or not you're looking at a Panasonic in torch mode w/ edge enhancement vs. a properly calibrated Pioneer?

Or a Pioneer w/ noise reduction settings cranked up vs. a properly calibrated Panasonic?

Some people like overly-edge enhanced stuff and call that 'sharp'. I've seen both Panny's and Pioneers and once calibrated either set's "sharpness" isn't really questionable.

That is if people don't like rings and overexagerated lines all over the place.

Why is nobody bragging here about the elites? Because most of you can't afford or do not have the Elite. It seems Elite owners are happy and the non Elite owners want everybody to know how great their Chryslers are. It's not the Mercedes.



That's a pretty absurd statement. The fact is that the 8g Elites are still not widespread and still not really fully in the market. If people can't yet get one, what would they be 'bragging' about? I'm waiting on an Elite presently since the dealer has not yet received his first allotment. So perhaps you should think 'availability' at this point in time. Additionally, I've seen the 8g non-Elites and there IS plenty to brag about. They outperform any Panasonic I've ever seen...hell, they outperform my Fujitsu. No Pioneer fanboy here, just an objective observer who isn't blind.

Second, it's hard to believe that anyone who frequents AVS would use Consumer Reports as a bible for purchasing high end electronics. But hey, I wouldn't hesitate to check them out for toaster ovens.

I certainly will abdicate to the many people here that know far more than I do about plasma displays. After reading this entire thread I decided to go to BB and see what I could see. They had a 50" LG, and 5080 and a 6070 all sitting together. Now I realize that the buyer is at the mercy of the ability of the sales force to set up a given display, and have been told repeatedly at BB, CC, Ultimate, that all displays are straight out of the box. Of course this doesn't mean a customer hasn't fiddeled with the settings. I will be buying a new plasma this year and really wanted to be wowed by the 5080 but it looked no better than the 6070 and both paled next to the LG in terms of sharpness of detail. Blacks looked the same to me.

So Andy, knowing that these sets are either 'straight out of the box' or 'fiddled with' by customers, you're willing to make a decision based on this one visit? If so then the LG is indeed the plasma for you. If it looks good to you then buy it.

With all due respect russwong, I didn't just fall off the apple cart. I saw the 60" model at CES which was tweeked pretty good. There is no question that the 5080 can look better calibrated. It didn't floor me as being much better than the best I have seen in plasma to date. I would have expected better out of the box performance given all the hype. I have seen many calibrated displays, been in control and production rooms and know what I am seeing. We will just have to agree to disagree. Sorry.

Nothing to be sorry about. You are in a minority just as I was in a minority regarding my feeling about the Pioneer FHD1. I was never wowed by that unit. I never could get past the mediocre black levels. But I sure as heck have been wowed by the 5080 and the utterly superb blacks that are unmatched by any other plasma around. That's simply a fact and is supported by both observations and measurements. I've learned that great black levels contribute far more than just the reproduction of good blacks. They play an important role in the reproduction of nearly all colors as well as the ability to produce great shadow detail. The new 8g panels seem to come up all aces in these important areas.

As much as I like the new Panasonics, I frankly don't see any real competition to the 8g Pioneers. :)

This article, though it may be bias because Pioneer held the event and thus set up the TVs, really puts my mind at ease. I know I made the right decision just when I watch the TV, but this article is the frosting on the cake! Sorry if it a re-post.

http://www.canadahifi.com/comments.php?id_entry=161

What seems to be a 'constant' is the biggest rave reviews come from the more objective observers and those that are really not trying to protect their 'turf'. There is a natural reaction by many to try to discredit a new piece of equipment that has overtaken their own equipment in performance...it's almost human nature.

Second, it's hard to believe that anyone who frequents AVS would use Consumer Reports as a bible for purchasing high end electronics. But hey, I wouldn't hesitate to check them out for toaster ovens.

I wouldn't say that over at the TOF forum (toaster oven fanatics), they would rip you a new one! :)

The biggest offense by broadcasters has been turning the brightness up way too high. Your Pioneer 5080 will no be able to achieve deep blacks due to the ultra high brightness of the original broadcast.



Huh? Say again? How is that I see plenty of deep blacks on broadcast. Have you ever watched CSI or other series with dark elements? I have no idea what you're watching or what service you're using...but I suggest you change it..quickly!

What seems to be a 'constant' is the biggest rave reviews come from the more objective observers and those that are really not trying to protect their 'turf'. There is a natural reaction by many to try to discredit a new piece of equipment that has overtaken their own equipment in performance...it's almost human nature.

No kidding... I sold my own plasma that I just recently bought and lost a bit of money on the deal. And it was a Pioneer.

Sorry 5070... you got your ass kicked.

So if the 5080 is good out of the box but not nearly as good as it can be I ask, why? I mean why should I need somebody to work their magic. Why isn't there a factory setting that already includes grayscale at d65 and the brightness, gamma, and contrast adjusted to almost perfect color, and why do I need someone to adjust out black crush? Just wondering.

Andy you're absolutely right. But that's not unique to Pioneer, but rather it's endemic to virtually every consumer TV that's ever rolled off the production line. Most manufacturers want their TVs to stand out on the display floor and that means a too blue picture, a too bright picture and an overly sharpened picture. However with that said, it surely would be nice to have that magic setting that restores picture parameters to where they should be.

There are a couple of things we know about this screen already.

It has fantastic colours, and I do mean truly stunning colours.
Motion is handled really well.
Lack of banding and dithering is so nice, you sort of get used to it, but after having a screen that doesn't do it I would find it very hard to go back.

It also has the deepest blacks of any flat panel with no black hole effect. However, how it comes from the factory with the gamma around 2.5 (and that is my guess I have not measured it) it needs calibrating. I am not even sure if non Elite owners can achieve the 2.2 gamma that really brings out the low level detail?
Out the box with a 0ire field you can see that -1 is as low as the blacks go on this panel, if you put up a grey steps pattern 0 and 10ire are almost the same, not good!
You need to get to +3 on the brightness to get the grey steps pattern looking even, the correct jump from 0 - 10ire. This is obvious by eye, you don't need any tools to see this.
It just seems a real shame that these screens named 'Kuro' make you ramp up the absolute black to see what is going on.

I have spoken to a few Fuji 58 owners now and they are all saying the same thing, the softness from the 8G pioneers on anything but the best feeds is a concern, you loose that 3D snap.

However at the moment the Pioneer has more going for it than going against it and it is a great screen. The gamma thing needs to be sorted though, sacraficing blacks is not an option, if I can't get the gamma lower I will get rid of my 4280, but before you all moan at me......I will buy an Elite. ;)

Both
Pure mode has been available on the US Elite models since the 6Gs. It will not be on your LX models.

All US models are based off the 601/709 colorspace (which is the colorspace 2 setting). How accurately they match the given color points is a different story. Our Elite color points are more accurate than the non-Elites (pre and post calibration).Why will it not be on our LX models though? We still use Rec 709 here - I will mostly be using HD on my set, gamma should still be 2.2, so why is there not an option to bring it as close to that standard as possible?

that's not unique to Pioneer, but rather it's endemic to virtually every consumer TV that's ever rolled off the production line. Most manufacturers want their TVs to stand out on the display floor and that means a too blue picture, a too bright picture and an overly sharpened picture. However with that said, it surely would be nice to have that magic setting that restores picture parameters to where they should be.I agree completely, however most of the sets I have bought (almost 10 in the last 2 years) have been far closer to 2.2, and if anything, slightly below it. I have never had a set with a gamma nearly as high as the 2.67 average that was measured on the 5080 that was professionally calibrated. That means it was even further off target out of the box.

Now, I realise that with a set that supports ISFccc, once the calibrators get the software update required, they should be able to bring it much closer to the 2.2 ideal, but if I buy one of these sets, I will be required to spend £300+ ($600) to get an image close to how it should look.

Now, if the ISFccc settings were in an "advanced" section of the menus I could access, and had a disclaimer about how you can easily ruin the image, I would have no problem with that, but if I buy one of these, which are already significantly overpriced in Europe, I won't have a good image until I've used the TV for a few hundred hours and called out an ISF trained calibrator. That's ludicrous.

If the Pioneer looked so much better than the other plasmas, why would you end up buying a Panasonic? Affordability, what about value that the Pioneer fansboys are talking about? Your comments make no sense. I guess a better picture does not create enough value for you. It must not have been that much better.

Hell, I buy tons of things where I buy the 'next best thing' due to money contraints. Value is a subjective term. Economy 101 my friend. Read your posts if you're speaking about comments that make no sense.

If the man thought the Pioneer's picture was worth a million over the Panasonic or he thought it was just 400 bucks more. Does it really make a difference?

If he can't afford it? He can't afford it! Regardless of what his thoughts on 'value'.

Why is it such a black and white issue? It's not like income along with other variables sways the balance of what 'people want to buy' and what people 'can by right?

If the Pioneer looked so much better than the other plasmas, why would you end up buying a Panasonic? Affordability, what about value that the Pioneer fansboys are talking about? Your comments make no sense. I guess a better picture does not create enough value for you. It must not have been that much better.
There are shoppers out there buying Maxent, Element, Vizio, even Philips and it's not because they think those are the best TVs they've ever seen. No, it's because they have the essentials and fit their budget.

After extensive shopping, I think the best I can do right now on a 5080 is pay about $900 more than you can occasionally find a Panasonic 50PX75U for. Or another way to look at is that I can get the 50" Panny for a similar price as the new 42" Pioneer. As good as the Pioneer picture was, I'd rather have a 50" set than a 42" set. Maybe the relative pricing will change and if so it will make a decision harder.

Russ, I think you're getting the point when it comes to Pioneer fanboys. These cheapskates think their 5080 is as good as the Elite model, which pioneer PR people would quickly disagree with.

Even if you have your plasma professionally tuned by an ISF technician, you are at the mercy of content prooviders. If everybody has ESPN and we are all watching the game in HD, DirecTV, DISH and cable could all have a different picture. Why? Because the satellite signal is bounced up and down several times and each broadcaster uses different equipment. DISH may be to bright and DirecTV could have oversaturated colors and the tint could be way too red.
Stop using the Elite as a basis for your argument. The panel is not significantly better. It is the same hardware with a different firmware which offers additional features. The difference between the Elite and Pure line is significantly less than, say, the difference between a Panasonic and the Pure line (which is currently significant). You've built an entire argument on price and THAT is why you continue to mention the Elite.

In addition, I think it's a bit presumptiuous to bring TV into this. Did you realize that it is entirely possible for some of us to purchase these televisions for uses other than television and DVDs?! As a gamer, I have witnessed the demanding nature of these games across a wide variety of panels. A high quality HD video game is a far more revealing application than DirecTV. There are so many flaws exposed through games that you would never notice otherwise. Many plasmas actually lower their color depth accuracy while in motion and this becomes obvious with a 60 fps game. The Panny, Samsung, and Fuji models all exhibit a serious flickering/dithering artifact when display darker colors...but it only becomes distracting and obvious when gaming (as the image is completely solid). These Pioneer panels suffer from none of the typical plasma caveats. In the gaming space, the features brought to the table by the Elite no longer matter.

Why will it not be on our LX models though? We still use Rec 709 here - I will mostly be using HD on my set, gamma should still be 2.2, so why is there not an option to bring it as close to that standard as possible?Pure mode has never been offered on a UK model. Why? I don't know. You will have to take that up with Pioneer.

I think I understand the benefit of "pure mode" and can I assume that it is held back from the non Elite models strictly from a marketing standpoint? It seems that this feature could be be included on all models. Is "pure mode" a high cost inclusion at the factory?

If I am able to save enough in the next few years I will be buying both Pio and Panasonic and avoid scratching my head on which one spits more black.

If I am able to save enough in the next few years I will be buying both Pio and Panasonic and avoid scratching my head on which one spits more black.
:D :D :D

You are new here, so you do not know the history. Up to several years ago, Panasonic plasmas had the best black level in the industry. Pioneers had excellent colors and were highly regarded plasmas, but they could not meet Panasonic's minimum black levels. Pioneer significantly improved their black levels when the xx60 models came out in the summer of 2005 to get close to what Panasonic could do. At that point, Pioneer caught up to Panasonic in basic display quality, although there are differences in the color look, features, the scaler and the electronics. Both of them make measurably better plasmas than what we had available 3 years ago.

Both Panasonic and Pioneer have made improvements this year with better anti-glare coatings for the Pannies, better black levels for the Pioneers, and widely available 1080p models from both of them. What I would like to see is concrete real measurements on the minimum black levels and ANSI contrast ratios for the 50" 768p PX75, PX77, 5080 and the 1080p PZ700, 5010 so we have some real performance metrics to use. With the long and bloated threads on the PZ700s and xx80s, I may have missed real measurements for those models. Has someone from a reputable source posted such measurements?

THANK YOU! - I have been away from the forum for a few years. Mostly because I couldn't keep myself here and not buy a new tv which I can't afford :). Well back shopping for a friend and will be buying in about 12-16 months myself and the first thing I thought was WTF happened to Panasonic :). When I left they were undisputed leader in plasma's and I truly appreciate the quick brief on what happened.
Agree on wanting metrics but only on page two in the thread so will see what comes out

THANK YOU! - I have been away from the forum for a few years. Mostly because I couldn't keep myself here and not buy a new tv which I can't afford :). Well back shopping for a friend and will be buying in about 12-16 months myself and the first thing I thought was WTF happened to Panasonic :). When I left they were undisputed leader in plasma's and I truly appreciate the quick brief on what happened.
Agree on wanting metrics but only on page two in the thread so will see what comes out

Panasonic Plasmas are no slouches either...checkout HDGuru's review on the new 50" model. Still a great Plasma w/good pricing. It's only that Pioneer has been doing their homework better in R&D, and have seemed to have addressed many, if not all, of the old buggaboos that have plagued plasma displays in the past. This Pioneer 8G is an all-new design rather than a few hardware/software tweeks, and they seem to have hit a homerun by raising the PQ bar to a whole new level. I'm anxious to read some in-depth professional reviews, as well as some display shootouts, but at this point it does look like all roses for Pioneer.

Since the blacks are so dark if you watch material that has alot of white in it will you be blinded?

Thanks for the laugh Artwood. I needed that :D

I wouldn't say that over at the TOF forum (toaster oven fanatics), they would rip you a new one! :)

That's right! I have this guy:

http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2005-03-01/acostavalle-cooltoasters/

his screen name.

Better watch out now!

What seems to be a 'constant' is the biggest rave reviews come from the more objective observers and those that are really not trying to protect their 'turf'. There is a natural reaction by many to try to discredit a new piece of equipment that has overtaken their own equipment in performance...it's almost human nature.

Agreed. I have never been a "fanboy" of anything. I purchase whatever gives the best performance for the best price; I don't care if the brand is called shyte products inc. :) I was ready to pull the trigger on the Panasonic 77, but the 5080HD won me over. Sure, I bought the TV site unseen, but I did get a chance to see it at a local dealer in my area before mine arrived. After seeing it in Milwaukee I knew I had made the right choice. And now when I watch it every day, that reassurance is right there patting me on the pack. Nice! :D

Gizlaroc, I am still at a loss as to why you think the Pioneer lacks sharpness and snap. Mine is unreal with the detail, and even at Best Buy the screen looks sharper than the others around it (panasonic, LG, etc). Perhaps you need to take more time to tweak it. Set the enhancer mode to 1. Also, it could be your source devices. You yourself said the sharpness varied depending on the source component (cable box vs. DVD).

I swapped the 4280XD over and went back to my PH8, there is slightly more ultra fine detail on the panny, but the Pioneer's colours, lack of banding and dithering and overall brightness (and by that I mean luminance) more than make up for the lack up ultra fine detail, so it is back in the main room again. ;)

^ Like I said, I bet it needs some more tweaking or a better source. Oh, and I am still waiting on your settings man.

I swapped the 4280XD over and went back to my PH8, there is slightly more ultra fine detail on the panny, but the Pioneer's colours, lack of banding and dithering and overall brightness (and by that I mean luminance) more than make up for the lack up ultra fine detail, so it is back in the main room again. ;)

The HQV discs have some tests with very fine horizontal lines to show detail. I posted in the Owner's thread that the Fujitsu shows finer lines on these tests when compared to the Pioneer from the same HD-A2 player at 1080i. It sounds like this may also translate to the Panasonic models.

In actual viewing though I find it difficult to see really see the difference. I have to say though, now that I'm watching only the Pioneer it seems almost unbelievable that something else may have more detail. I'm completely fine with the detail I see on the Pioneer. In fact, I almost feel like I'm giving the wrong impression by mentioning that the Fujitsu has more detail. The Pioneer looks plenty detailed and not the slightest bit soft.

I agree with you exactly about the benefits making up for the small difference in detail. The amount of depth and texture to the picture is fantastic.

I think those that go into stores looking for only the differences in black level as being the major decision factor in deciding on the Pioneer or not are really missing some of the other great features of the product like the processing, contrast, and anti-reflective capabilities.

I'm watching King Kong in HD off of cable right now and even with the drapes open and a big swath of light across the TV I cannot see myself reflected in the glass from my seating position at 10+'. I did not get this benefit from Panasonic-based plasmas (did not have the 77). The Fujitsu would have looked like a mirror right now though. The bezel on the Pioneer is actually more reflective than the screen. You can still get glare off of the screen like any glass surface, but the whole screen does not respond with nasty reflections if that makes sense.

Gizlarac, I am still at a loss as to why you think the Pioneer lacks sharpness and snap. Mine is unreal with the detail, and even at Best Buy the screen looks sharper than the others around it (panasonic, LG, etc). Perhaps you need to take more time to tweak it. Set the enhancer mode to 1. Also, it could be your source devices. You yourself said the sharpness varied depending on the source component (cable box vs. DVD).

Nuance, this is precisely what confuses me too. I can't for the life of me figure out why he finds this panel soft. In my viewings it's anything but soft and compares favorably with anything on display around it. I don't think it's any sharper than the sharpest, but it's certainly not any softer than the sharpest either.

Nuance, this is precisely what confuses me too. I can't for the life of me figure out why he finds this panel soft. In my viewings it's anything but soft and compares favorably with anything on display around it. I don't think it's any sharper than the sharpest, but it's certainly not any softer than the sharpest either.

Yup, you said it. That's why I am attributing it to the source or improper setup, no offense gizlaroc.

In actual viewing though I find it difficult to see really see the difference. I have to say though, now that I'm watching only the Pioneer it seems almost unbelievable that something else may have more detail. I'm completely fine with the detail I see on the Pioneer. In fact, I almost feel like I'm giving the wrong impression by mentioning that the Fujitsu has more detail. The Pioneer looks plenty detailed and not the slightest bit soft.



RPNYC, one of the descriptions I've often given while watching some pristine HD on my Fujitsus over the years is that it's like 'looking through the window'. Since you too have owned a Fujitsu, would you say you get that same effect with the Pioneer to a greater or lesser degree?

Nuance, this is precisely what confuses me too. I can't for the life of me figure out why he finds this panel soft. In my viewings it's anything but soft and compares favorably with anything on display around it. I don't think it's any sharper than the sharpest, but it's certainly not any softer than the sharpest either.

They said this about the 5070 and previous as well so I just really kind of take that comparison with a grain of salt. Maybe they're seeing something I don't but if calibrated correctly detail should be stunning. My 5070 was no less detailed then my friends 429uk... if not even more detailed. Even more detailed than both my other Samsung units.

The 5080 seemed better than all three units when I watched. And it wasn't even calibrated.

But giz has two plasmas to compare side by side. It's up to him what he does with his plasmas so. What are we to know?

Unless the 8uk is dramatically better than any other plasma in the market to show details... then I'll just call this comparison an isolated one.

I have the enhancer mode set to 2 and DRE set to Mid. I see a big difference in apparent sharpness when manipulating these two settings. It's sharp enough that I turn the sharpness down to -4 or so with these settings. Setting enhancer to 1 would be ultra-sharp :)

Nuance, this is precisely what confuses me too. I can't for the life of me figure out why he finds this panel soft. In my viewings it's anything but soft and compares favorably with anything on display around it. I don't think it's any sharper than the sharpest, but it's certainly not any softer than the sharpest either.

well, to be fair, there is a world of difference between "soft" and...


there is slightly more ultra fine detail on the panny,

don't you think?

Poor guy gizlaroc, can't catch a break around here! :D

Perhaps there are still some settings which need changing or something, but who knows.. maybe, just maybe, the 8th gen Panasonic commercials were magically endowed with special fine detail resolving powers. Or, maybe the 5080 (or the European named equivalent) isn't able to access those very last finest of details without a proper professional calibration.

RPNYC, one of the descriptions I've often given while watching some pristine HD on my Fujitsus over the years is that it's like 'looking through the window'. Since you too have owned a Fujitsu, would you say you get that same effect with the Pioneer to a greater or lesser degree?

I felt that last year's Pioneer and Fujitsu models looked a lot different in the stores or at home when uncalibrated. They had a different "look" overall. Pioneer always looked a lot softer and a little flatter to me. Now it looks very much like the Fujitsu in terms of three-dimensionality, sharpness, and pop. To me Pioneer now has a look that's just as much like looking out of a window as Fujitsu, and Pioneer may even have an edge in this regard because of the extra depth provided by the contrast and black levels.

I have the enhancer mode set to 2 and DRE set to Mid. I see a big difference in apparent sharpness when manipulating these two settings. It's sharp enough that I turn the sharpness down to -4 or so with these settings. Setting enhancer to 1 would be ultra-sharp :)

Yup, that's what I found with remote in hand at BB. I found a bigger difference in the enhancer settings than the DRE.

I felt that last year's Pioneer and Fujitsu models looked a lot different in the stores or at home when uncalibrated. They had a different "look" overall. Pioneer always looked a lot softer and a little flatter to me. Now it looks very much like the Fujitsu in terms of three-dimensionality, sharpness, and pop. To me Pioneer now has a look that's just as much like looking out of a window as Fujitsu, and Pioneer may even have an edge in this regard because of the extra depth provided by the contrast and black levels.

Nice, very nice...or is it very D-Nice? ;)

Yup, that's what I found with remote in hand at BB. I found a bigger difference in the enhancer settings than the DRE.

Enhancer is huge as 3 softens the picture way too much. If someone sees a 5080 or 1150 with enhancer set to 3 it will give a very bad impression with all else being equal. DRE manipulates the dynamic range as I recall. It has a big difference from off to high or mid in my viewing and really seems to bump the contrast a bit, which raises perceived sharpness...at least in my opinion. I would imagine a calibrator might turn this off, but I find it helpful to give me the look I want right now.

That doesn't even look like the Pioneer 8g.... notice the black bars on the top and bottom. The 8g Pioneers BLEND right into the bezel. That looks more like the 7g. .. if not a little worse. And the guy loves his Panasonic. No crime there.

But if that's the 8g, this guy really knows how to screw up a good black level.

And all the other stuff he posted? Meh. Here we go again.

I'll go buy a Maxent and do a compare and contrast. Those colors look "realistic" to me!

BTW... Transformers kicked ass!!!!!


Now that's one thing a agree with you on. Fantastic Movie!!

A guy @avforums bought a new PioG8, and compared it next to his
"old" Panasonic PH8D, a commercial screen. Very interesting read;



http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=544315&page=29

Later on he posted some comparison pics;

Below the Pioneer;
http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/vs/vs4.jpg

Panny
http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/vs/rockpanny.jpg

Pio
http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/vs/rockpio.jpg

http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/vs/vs3.jpg

More pics in the thread.

So the Panny is the new SED killer :D :D

Now that's one thing a agree with you on. Fantastic Movie!!

That I agree with you Auditor. Long live... 80s childhood! :)

I still think the movie was good but nothing compared to the first few original cartoon series

So the Panny is the new SED killer :D :D

We'll look forward to reading your review of the SED Killer...when do you plan order?

So the Panny is the new SED killer :D :D

Have you read through the original thread where those pictures were posted??

You will see it is set at iso1600 and the shutter left open far too long so you can see the differences! :rolleyes:

So the Panny is the new SED killer :D :D

Auditor, there is no longer any need for an "SED killer". In case you haven't heard, SED committed suicide. :D

Auditor, there is no longer any need for an "SED killer". In case you haven't heard, SED committed suicide. :D

:D:D!!

i suppose i should go ahead and post my opinions. yesterday i went to both a best buy and an ultimate electronics, and i think i got the best view at the BB. the 5080 was near a 6070 and a panny 58pz700. same feed being tuned in by the old internal tuner (which are basically crap on pioneers, so may not be a good comparison) the 5080 was hands down the black winner between the 3. when the picture would go off and just the screen was there, the 5080 looked like it was off, whereas you could see some light from the other two. HOWEVER, a lot of people on here are saying that the 5080 is SO MUCH sharper than the 5070 or 6070. since the 6070 uses the same electronics as the 5070, ill use it for the comparison. the 5080 was SLIGHTLY sharper to my eye, HOWEVER there was so much edge ringing from the edge enhancment circuitry, that it was almost unwatchable. the 6070 had much more natural lines. if pio built this set "from the ground up" think they did a piss poor job on that one. they got the blacks right, but blew the sharpness. granted i did not adjust the set, but i would think that even if you defeat the circuitry,it would just kick the picture back to the same sharpness as the 6070. i did not make a color comparison, but the pio colors have not had the same pop since the 6th gen sets. so in my opinion, awesome blacks, same sharpness and 3d as the 7th gen, same color pop as 7th gen, still less than 6th gen. i had no opinion on color or white accuracy as i am not anal on white temperature or green accuracy.

HOWEVER, a lot of people on here are saying that the 5080 is SO MUCH sharper than the 5070 or 6070. since the 6070 uses the same electronics as the 5070, ill use it for the comparison. the 5080 was SLIGHTLY sharper to my eye, HOWEVER there was so much edge ringing from the edge enhancment circuitry, that it was almost unwatchable. the 6070 had much more natural lines. if pio built this set "from the ground up" think they did a piss poor job on that one. they got the blacks right, but blew the sharpness. granted i did not adjust the set, but i would think that even if you defeat the circuitry,it would just kick the picture back to the same sharpness as the 6070. i did not make a color comparison, but the pio colors have not had the same pop since the 6th gen sets. so in my opinion, awesome blacks, same sharpness and 3d as the 7th gen, same color pop as 7th gen, still less than 6th gen. i had no opinion on color or white accuracy as i am not anal on white temperature or green accuracy.

I agree with you that the 8g Pioneers are not that much sharper (if at all) than the best of the other plasmas out there. But that's not what the 8g are all about and I don't believe Pioneer is touting that either. I also haven't seen many people saying the 8gs are so much sharper than other panels...in fact I can't remember anyone saying that.

However, when it comes to black levels and color saturation, that IS where the 8g has its claim to fame. I don't think many people have been complaining about 'sharpness' as in issue with the better plasma from most manufacturers. However, there have been many complaints about black levels and some about color. Pioneer has addressed these 'deficiencies' in plasma technology in spades.

So for myself, I could care less if the Pioneer is any sharper than what's come before. I've been looking for a plasma to address the current issues that do exist and those have been primarily black levels. Pioneer has done this and it has impacted other areas of picture quality. I don't think we could have asked for much more. :)

i disagree ken. the first poster of the 8g owenrs thread, supervision2010, posted this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10736237&&#post10736237

and one of his statements is that the piture was "Plenty sharp and detailed , better than the 5070 I had" and he isnt the only one that has said that. and i disagree. i think that unless they placed them right next to each other with the same feed, you really cant tell. like i said, with the circuitry in, the edge rining was terrible. but then again, lots of panny owners like the clayface from vivid mode, ans swear they dont notice the clayface...to each their own i guess.

4

5

Check out this review released today about the Panasonic 50pz700u:

http://www.canadahifi.com/review77.php

"Without a doubt, the most striking performance aspect of the TH-50PZ700 was its black level. The black was the darkest I've seen yet from a plasma TV, rivaled only by the new Pioneer generation plasma TVs that I recently saw at a press event. The Panasonic produced blacks that seemingly matched the TV's black front bezel. Being able to deliver such a deep level of black has a huge impact on the overall picture performance of the TV. A beneficial by-product of this exceptionally deep black, were amazing shadow details. While watching Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, I could clearly see the details in people faces and clothing in the darkest scenes, details that most other plasmas could only dream of being able to display. "

Many have said the black level on the Pannys did not compare to the 8G Pioneers. When properly calibrated, it would appear that the Panny surpasses the Pioneer in black levels. A lot of you were saying, "just wait for the reviews to come out, you'll see." What now? Are you going to bash the reviewer and the website for not crowning your Pioneer as king? :p

Check out this review released today about the Panasonic 50pz700u:

http://www.canadahifi.com/review77.php

"Without a doubt, the most striking performance aspect of the TH-50PZ700 was its black level. The black was the darkest I've seen yet from a plasma TV, rivaled only by the new Pioneer generation plasma TVs that I recently saw at a press event. The Panasonic produced blacks that seemingly matched the TV's black front bezel. Being able to deliver such a deep level of black has a huge impact on the overall picture performance of the TV. A beneficial by-product of this exceptionally deep black, were amazing shadow details. While watching Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, I could clearly see the details in people faces and clothing in the darkest scenes, details that most other plasmas could only dream of being able to display. "

Many have said the black level on the Pannys did not compare to the 8G Pioneers. When properly calibrated, it would appear that the Panny surpasses the Pioneer in black levels. A lot of you were saying, "just wait for the reviews to come out, you'll see." What now? Are you going to bash the reviewer and the website for not crowning your Pioneer as king? :p

I personally like the Panasonics, but I'm struggling to see (from what you've shown) that the Pansasonics have BETTER black level. I think most people will believe that (in a non-darkened room) that both TVs have excellent blacks. As to whether the Pioneer has better blacks, only measurements (and time) will tell. From what I've seen so far (from other postings and forums), I think the Pioneers will be better though, but whether that's important is debatable.

Are you going to bash the reviewer and the website for not crowning your Pioneer as king? :p

Just out of curiosity, how many user names have you created at AVS?

Try a**wipe for the next one.

I personally like the Panasonics, but I'm struggling to see (from what you've shown) that the Pansasonics have BETTER black level. I think most people will believe that (in a non-darkened room) that both TVs have excellent blacks. As to whether the Pioneer has better blacks, only measurements (and time) will tell. From what I've seen so far (from other postings and forums), I think the Pioneers will be better though, but whether that's important is debatable.

The reviewer claimed it was the best he's ever seen, and that only the new Pioneers rivaled it. So perhaps it's debatable, but many in here were stating it was no comparison, which just isn't true. The Pioneers are great, but they're not the only great plasmas out there.

Just out of curiosity, how many user names have you created at AVS?

Try a**wipe for the next one.

Sorry but you have me confused with someone else.

The reviewer claimed it was the best he's ever seen, and that only the new Pioneers rivaled it. So perhaps it's debatable, but many in here were stating it was no comparison, which just isn't true. The Pioneers are great, but they're not the only great plasmas out there.

Absolutely agree. The current generation Panasonics produce excellent black levels.

If you take the greatest Fujitsu plasma in the world--do the 8th generation Pioneers put it into the toilet, too?

Who is more likely to one day catch back up with Pioneer--Fujitsu, Panasonic, or neither?

And since Pioneer Plasmas now have the greatest blacks--who is second--Fujitsu, Panasonic, or Sony XBR SXRD?

I personally like the Panasonics, but I'm struggling to see (from what you've shown) that the Pansasonics have BETTER black level. I think most people will believe that (in a non-darkened room) that both TVs have excellent blacks. As to whether the Pioneer has better blacks, only measurements (and time) will tell. From what I've seen so far (from other postings and forums), I think the Pioneers will be better though, but whether that's important is debatable.

I must admit that I haven't spent time with the new Panny and new Pio
side by side, etc. but from what I have seen, there is no flat panel on the market
that can touch the 5080 that I saw when it comes to Black Level...

What is even more important ( to me anyway ) is the shadow detail and the
content being played at the Pioneer Store ( where I saw the 5080 ) it was
very difficult to ascertain how good the shadow detail really is ( the best shadow
detail I have ever seen on a flat panel to date is the Sharp 92 series LCD but
the banding issues, etc. and inferior black level to the 8G Pios have eliminated
this choice for me ).

Will need some dark film based content to judge this aspect of it...

The reviewer claimed it was the best he's ever seen, and that only the new Pioneers rivaled it. So perhaps it's debatable, but many in here were stating it was no comparison, which just isn't true. The Pioneers are great, but they're not the only great plasmas out there.

It is no comparison side-by-side. There's some pictures showing you exactly what we mean.

One TV will look like it's somewhat 'off'. The other looks like it's glowing. I've sat and watched a Pioneer 5070 and a Panasonic 9uk to know I was looking at something amazing when I was watching the 5080.

From the same site...

"What was surprising, was the drastic difference in the black levels between the plasma TVs – the Pioneer displayed what appeared to be pure black (as black as its frame at times), the Panasonic also did a great job of displaying black (although its black appeared very dark grey next to the Pioneer) and the Samsung’s black simply appeared grey instead of black."

I spent extensive hours at Best Buy and Magnolia Hi Fi (one of the original stand-alone stores in Seattle) comparing the 8G Pioneer to the latest Fujitsu, LG, Samsung 5064? and Panasonic plasmas (both 768p and 1080p). In the bright lighting conditions of Best Buy, the differences between these sets were a bit subtle (even when I took the sets out of "torch" mode). For that matter, the latest LCD offerings look pretty good in a bright store! However, in the lowered lighting conditions of Magnolia HiFi, it was fairly clear the 8G Pioneers are in another league. Measurements in controlled environments bear this out. I ended up buying a 4280 from a forum sponsor (thanks Roman!), and view it at night mostly. This is the first flat-panel I have seen that can rival the blacks of the 32" Sony Trinitron CRT that we used to watch in the bedroom. Other plasmas (and especially LCDs) simply cannot go as black. I have a 37" LCD in the den, and blacks are a muddy grey mess at night. For many people watching their content in medium- to brightly-lit rooms, this "blackness" may not matter, but if you watch at night, there was a huge difference For me, it was enough to pay an additional 33% over competitive brands. (I was dead-set on getting a Panasonic or Samsung prior to the Kuro's release). Other features (besides blacks) I found compelling were:
+ 72Hz refresh rate (judder free movies if they have correct cadence info)
+ Superior SDTV processing
+ Lack of pixel flickering in dark areas (especially noticable close-up on Fuji, Samsung and Panny)
+ Lack of banding and dithering
+ Lack of firmware defects (e.g. Samsung judder)

Your mileage may vary, but I certainly think it is quite a stretch to speak of a "G8 bubble starting to burst" -- it makes me wonder if someone has an agenda...

It is no comparison side-by-side. There's some pictures showing you exactly what we mean.

One TV will look like it's somewhat 'off'. The other looks like it's glowing. I've sat and watched a Pioneer 5070 and a Panasonic 9uk to know I was looking at something amazing when I was watching the 5080.

From the same site...

"What was surprising, was the drastic difference in the black levels between the plasma TVs – the Pioneer displayed what appeared to be pure black (as black as its frame at times), the Panasonic also did a great job of displaying black (although its black appeared very dark grey next to the Pioneer) and the Samsung’s black simply appeared grey instead of black."

Link please? I didn't see a review for the 5080 on that site comparing it to the 50pz700u.

Enhancer is huge as 3 softens the picture way too much. If someone sees a 5080 or 1150 with enhancer set to 3 it will give a very bad impression with all else being equal. DRE manipulates the dynamic range as I recall. It has a big difference from off to high or mid in my viewing and really seems to bump the contrast a bit, which raises perceived sharpness...at least in my opinion. I would imagine a calibrator might turn this off, but I find it helpful to give me the look I want right now.


RPNYC,

Do you have the Black Level set to on or off? Or better yet, would you mind posting what settings you're using?

Link please? I didn't see a review for the 5080 on that site comparing it to the 50pz700u.

http://www.canadahifi.com/comments.php?id_entry=161

What sucks was you just missed some pics that apparently got taken down. They're about a couple posts back. Showing the new Panasonic 750 v.s the 5070 vs. 4280.

Those pictures weren't debatable.

Many have said the black level on the Pannys did not compare to the 8G Pioneers. When properly calibrated, it would appear that the Panny surpasses the Pioneer in black levels. A lot of you were saying, "just wait for the reviews to come out, you'll see." What now? Are you going to bash the reviewer and the website for not crowning your Pioneer as king? :p

You just did a great job of "stirring the pot" with this post! But I'm sure that was your intention to do just that.

RPNYC,

Do you have the Black Level set to on or off? Or better yet, would you mind posting what settings you're using?


I have pretty conservative settings I think. It's not calibrated though and I'm still messing around with the settings occasionally for day and night viewing. I haven't even bothered to run AVIA or Video Essentials yet.

I took some HD TV pictures last night that I will be posting a link to in the owner's thread soon. Stop by and have a look if you like.

Contrast: 30
Brightness: +1
Color: +3
Tint:0
Sharpness: -4
Film Mode: Standard
Text Opt: Off
Intelligent Mode: Off
DRE: Mid
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 2
Gamma: 3
Color Temp: Mid-Low
CTI: Off
Color Management: Default
Color Space: 2
Noise Reduction: All Off
Orbiter: On
Energy Save: Off

http://www.canadahifi.com/comments.php?id_entry=161

What sucks was you just missed some pics that apparently got taken down. They're about a couple posts back. Showing the new Panasonic 750 v.s the 5070 vs. 4280.

Those pictures weren't debatable.

Great article, thanks Johnny. After reading the article, I must admit that the new Pioneers appear to have the Pannys beat. The Panny is a great set and I still believe one of its strongest attributes is its black levels. I don't think someone should spend the extra money on the Pioneer based on black levels alone. However, considering that the Pioneers produced a "butter smooth motion" while the other sets were not able to eliminate judder, thats huge. Also, one could also not argue that the Pioneers produce the best colors...its been that way for years. So if you take all those factors into consideration, it would appear that the 8G Pioneers is the best of the bunch.

It would seem that Pioneer has the best colors....best blacks, best motion...best processing. Does Panasonic win at anything? In my last trip to view the sets, the Pioneer makes red, red...the others make it orange. This is a huge advantage with skin tones....which gives a feeling of reality to the picture.

One caveat is I'm yet to really evaluate the motion artifacting...I hate judder and see it quite often on the Panasonic set. Maybe I'll buy the Pioneer and evaluate it at home since most stores run demo loops or satellite and you never can tell if an when a difficult pan will occur.

It would seem that Pioneer has the best colors....best blacks, best motion...best processing. Does Panasonic win at anything? In my last trip to view the sets, the Pioneer makes red, red...the others make it orange. This is a huge advantage with skin tones....which gives a feeling of reality to the picture.

One caveat is I'm yet to really evaluate the motion artifacting...I hate judder and see it quite often on the Panasonic set. Maybe I'll buy the Pioneer and evaluate it at home since most stores run demo loops or satellite and you never can tell if an when a difficult pan will occur.

The Pioneer is best at everything. Pioneer recognizes this and will end future generation upgrade models because everything is perfect now. The other companies should just pack it in :D

The Pioneer is best at everything. Pioneer recognizes this and will end future generation upgrade models because everything is perfect now. The other companies should just pack it in :D

There will always be improvements but anyone considering a plasma today who wants the best available ( not necessarily the least expensive ) has a very simple choice to make :-)

There will always be improvements but anyone considering a plasma today who wants the best available ( not necessarily the least expensive ) has a very simple choice to make :-)

Clearly, most people would not agree on what the best is regardless of price.
I did find this thread amusing though. The original post wasn't necessarily saying the 8G was bad, just not what it's cracked up to be. Then the Pioneer fanboys went apoplectic :D

Clearly, most people would not agree on what the best is regardless of price.
I did find this thread amusing though. The original post wasn't necessarily saying the 8G was bad, just not what it's cracked up to be. Then the Pioneer fanboys went apoplectic :D

Well, I am definitely not a fan boy of any company though I am a fan of awesome displays.

I started looking for a new display right around the time Panasonic came out with their first 65 inch 1080p plasma - definitely much better than what I am viewing today and was at the top of the list until I went to CES 2007 this year and saw the Sharp 92 series and the shadow detail blew me away ( I also was super impressed with the Pio "super plasma" but it was unknown at that time when it would debut ).

I was all set on purchasing the Sharp 92 series until it became apparent that there were banding issues, etc. so I was back in the Panny camp probably settling on a 58 inch 1080p due to price point and wait for the Pioneer "super plasma" in 2008. Then it was announced that Pioneer would be shipping the "super plasmas" under the KURO name and this is now my next purchase ( I am waiting for the 60 inch 1080p Pio Elite model ).

I don't believe "best" is necessarily open to interpretion unless there are trade-offs between two sets, i.e. one has higher resolution; the other better black levels, etc.

But if we are talking about commericially available plasma flat panels today, there are none that I have seen that are in in the ball park of the Pioneer KUROS. Black level, colors, sharpness ( not ringing or pixel structure ), resolution, etc.

The Pioneer KUROS stands out heads and shoulders above any other commerically
available plasma ( or any flat panel for that matter ) that I have seen..

I don't believe "best" is necessarily open to interpretion unless there are trade-offs between two sets, i.e. one has higher resolution; the other better black levels, etc.



So are you saying by implication that the Pioneer in discussion here is "better" in every regard than other brands?

in his eyes yes, :)

In my eyes yes. :)

So are you saying by implication that the Pioneer in discussion here is "better" in every regard than other brands?

I don't know how to be more explicit than I have but yes :-)

I did find this thread amusing though. The original post wasn't necessarily saying the 8G was bad, just not what it's cracked up to be. Then the Pioneer fanboys went apoplectic :D

Wow.

The entire 15+ page thread summed up perfectly in one post!

Well, I am definitely not a fan boy of any company though I am a fan of awesome displays.

I started looking for a new display right around the time Panasonic came out with their first 65 inch 1080p plasma - definitely much better than what I am viewing today and was at the top of the list until I went to CES 2007 this year and saw the Sharp 92 series and the shadow detail blew me away ( I also was super impressed with the Pio "super plasma" but it was unknown at that time when it would debut ).

The Pioneer KUROS stands out heads and shoulders above any other commerically
available plasma ( or any flat panel for that matter ) that I have seen..

OK Tony - I can understand the D92 crap but what does that have to do with the D93 that blew you away at CES? The D93 is built from glass at K1 and has no banding history whatsoever so is it the price? For now it's tough to get one below $8K as they have no LCD competition in that sizing for now. I recall how impressed you were from CES and the D93 has nothing in common with the D92's it's a different plant and a different production process.

So how do you compare the wow you reported of the D93 to the Kuro? by all means go for it - I'm confident the 1080P 60" Pio will be top of the class panel but it still is doubtful to handle a bright sunny room. If I had the right environ I'd be more prone to it as you are deciding plus the fact it's five inches smaller than the D93. The Pio will be great but some of us cannot be in denial of our viewing environ.

Bottom Line on a scale of 1-10 how do you rate each? Shadow details are more important to me than an advantage in the deeper blacks. It doesn't work without both in the Recipe. - IMO. :)

So how do you compare the wow you reported of the D93 to the Kuro?

Man, are you going to buy that d93 or not? It sounds like your perfect TV already,
and it's {supposedly} manufactured at the K1 plant!

Incidentally, I went from the 52 inch d92 (was a nice set most of the time) to a
(much more expensive) 60 inch Pio Elite! Yeah, I'm going bigger! As you've said,
the size alone will be the WOW factor! Heck, that 63 inch Samsung 6372 is quite
the WOW just on size alone. It's not a bad panel either... probably pick that over
the panny PZ700 if I had to. Heck, the price is kinda nice. :)

Just out of curiosity, how many user names have you created at AVS?

Try a**wipe for the next one.

Okay, I know sampo keeps turning up like a bad penny - but assuming anyone with a low post count and an anti-Pioneer comment is Sampo is bound to sweep new forum members into that net. Not the greatest welcome to avs. Can't we cut people a little slack. Some of them aren't sampo.

Check out this review released today about the Panasonic 50pz700u:

http://www.canadahifi.com/review77.php

"Without a doubt, the most striking performance aspect of the TH-50PZ700 was its black level. The black was the darkest I've seen yet from a plasma TV, rivaled only by the new Pioneer generation plasma TVs that I recently saw at a press event. The Panasonic produced blacks that seemingly matched the TV's black front bezel. Being able to deliver such a deep level of black has a huge impact on the overall picture performance of the TV. A beneficial by-product of this exceptionally deep black, were amazing shadow details. While watching Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, I could clearly see the details in people faces and clothing in the darkest scenes, details that most other plasmas could only dream of being able to display. "

Many have said the black level on the Pannys did not compare to the 8G Pioneers. When properly calibrated, it would appear that the Panny surpasses the Pioneer in black levels. A lot of you were saying, "just wait for the reviews to come out, you'll see." What now? Are you going to bash the reviewer and the website for not crowning your Pioneer as king? :p

Nice attempt at deceptive spin. The review does not say what you are claiming that it does. The reviewer admits that Panasonic has a contrast ratio of only 5.000 to 1, and he also says that he only saw one of the Pioneer Kuro panels on display, in other words he has never actually had his hands on one, so he has not really made a true comparision. Why are you over on the Pioneer threads. You claim that you recently bought a Panny, and that you had to have it replaced, and that you are also having problems with the replacement unit. Why do you care what people think about the new Pioneers compared to Panasonics, since you have already revealed that you have not had very much luck with your two recently owned Panasonic Plasmas. Trying to disparage the Pioneer Kuro line will not make your defective Panasonics work any better, even if you think that it will make you feel better. :D :D :D

...

Okay, I know sampo keeps turning up like a bad penny - but assuming anyone with a low post count and an anti-Pioneer comment is Sampo is bound to sweep new forum members into that net. Not the greatest welcome to avs. Can't we cut people a little slack. Some of them aren't sampo.

I'm not a sampo, I swear. ;)

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First of all, do us all a favor and take an English class or two. My 12 year old nephew's grammar is better than yours. :p :p

Secondly, my purpose of posting that link was to prove that there are other great plasmas out there. Many seem to think that the Pioneers are the only great sets out there when that just isn't the case. I may have been unlucky to receive one with a couple dead pixels and another that makes too much noise, but overall the 700u is a very strong set. Lastly, much has made of the Panny's black not being very good. That just isn't true...the Panny's blacks were considerably better than Pioneer's 7th generation. Johnnybrulez provided me with a link proving that the 8G's are stronger than the 1080p Pannys in this regard.

The fact of the matter is that the 8G Pioneers have deeper blacks, better colors, and handles judder better than any set. It has me reconsidering my decision and perhaps going with an 8G Pioneer. That's not to say that the new Pannys aren't great sets.


The above statement is direct conflict with what you said in your previous post. Here is what you said then.



Yesterday, 12:03 PM #441 (Print)
socalguy78
New Member


Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 13 Now I can post this link...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Check out this review released today about the Panasonic 50pz700u:

http://www.canadahifi.com/review77.php

"Without a doubt, the most striking performance aspect of the TH-50PZ700 was its black level. The black was the darkest I've seen yet from a plasma TV, rivaled only by the new Pioneer generation plasma TVs that I recently saw at a press event. The Panasonic produced blacks that seemingly matched the TV's black front bezel. Being able to deliver such a deep level of black has a huge impact on the overall picture performance of the TV. A beneficial by-product of this exceptionally deep black, were amazing shadow details. While watching Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, I could clearly see the details in people faces and clothing in the darkest scenes, details that most other plasmas could only dream of being able to display. "

Many have said the black level on the Pannys did not compare to the 8G Pioneers. When properly calibrated, it would appear that the Panny surpasses the Pioneer in black levels. A lot of you were saying, "just wait for the reviews to come out, you'll see." What now? Are you going to bash the reviewer and the website for not crowning your Pioneer as king?.



Where did you read "that the Panny surpasses the Pioneer in black levels". The reviewer does not make that claim, so where are you getting it from?.

...

I have pretty conservative settings I think. It's not calibrated though and I'm still messing around with the settings occasionally for day and night viewing. I haven't even bothered to run AVIA or Video Essentials yet.

I took some HD TV pictures last night that I will be posting a link to in the owner's thread soon. Stop by and have a look if you like.

Contrast: 30
Brightness: +1
Color: +3
Tint:0
Sharpness: -4
Film Mode: Standard
Text Opt: Off
Intelligent Mode: Off
DRE: Mid
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 2
Gamma: 3
Color Temp: Mid-Low
CTI: Off
Color Management: Default
Color Space: 2
Noise Reduction: All Off
Orbiter: On
Energy Save: Off



Thanks, RPNYC. Looking forward to your pics!

Man, are you going to buy that d93 or not? It sounds like your perfect TV already,
and it's {supposedly} manufactured at the K1 plant!

Incidentally, I went from the 52 inch d92 (was a nice set most of the time) to a
(much more expensive) 60 inch Pio Elite! Yeah, I'm going bigger! As you've said,
the size alone will be the WOW factor! Heck, that 63 inch Samsung 6372 is quite
the WOW just on size alone. It's not a bad panel either... probably pick that over
the panny PZ700 if I had to. Heck, the price is kinda nice. :)
I have the matter of actually viewing the D93 and selling my 57" first and also waiting for the price to drop and that will take patience for them to clear the old 65" first.

My biggest hold back would be making the upgrade and still not having the shadow details an SXRD can deliver and so we have one in-store Mag store about 30 miles away in order to audit the panel but I'd also like to see what the 1080P Pio offers and see if it has true prevention of glare and much less reflective nature as I've always favored Pio but my viewing room doesn't suit most plasma's. Price drops should occur around CES as they did last year - in fact the Sharps dropped MSRP 50% last October 1 on the 57/65" and then I negotiated off that to make it affordable.

Thanks for tolerating an LCD poster you guys - this forum has gotten very lean for anything of significance to actually discuss that is new and somewhat exciting with the Pio's whether everyone agree's or not which is King - it's made things lively on the forum that otherwise has become speculative wishful thinking as we wait and wait for the 81's and XRB5 and the 1080P Kuro's and such and in the meantime flame baits tempt to get threads closed as occurred reccently over in the XBR5 thread. ENjoy!

OK Tony - I can understand the D92 crap but what does that have to do with the D93 that blew you away at CES? The D93 is built from glass at K1 and has no banding history whatsoever so is it the price? For now it's tough to get one below $8K as they have no LCD competition in that sizing for now. I recall how impressed you were from CES and the D93 has nothing in common with the D92's it's a different plant and a different production process.

So how do you compare the wow you reported of the D93 to the Kuro? by all means go for it - I'm confident the 1080P 60" Pio will be top of the class panel but it still is doubtful to handle a bright sunny room. If I had the right environ I'd be more prone to it as you are deciding plus the fact it's five inches smaller than the D93. The Pio will be great but some of us cannot be in denial of our viewing environ.

Bottom Line on a scale of 1-10 how do you rate each? Shadow details are more important to me than an advantage in the deeper blacks. It doesn't work without both in the Recipe. - IMO. :)

Hi Westa,

If you check back on my reporting from CES, you will see that Sharp was displaying bright outdoor scenes on the 65 inch and bigger panels. They had a couple 52 inch 92 series panels on the side that were comparing 120 Hz versus 60 Hz, and something like 8,000 CR to 15,000 CR ( last generation panel to new generation panels ). The shadow detail I observed on the 92 series panels via this set up blew me away ( the blacks were also seemed very good for an LCD panel but with the bright lights all around it was difficult to know for sure ). So if the 93 series performs as well as the 92 series in this regard, and it doesn't have banding, then it should be an amazing panel and I am sure you will enjoy it.

Regarding black levels of the 92 series versus the KUROs - my oberservation ( no measurement ) is that the KURO has the 92 series beat in this regard ( by a very noticable margin ).

But I am definitely on the same page as you regarding shadow detail versus black level - I would go even further and state that I prefer shadow detail over black level since I could always have some light on in the room :-).

I have yet to view the new KUROs with dark scene film based content to really be able to observe how well the shadow detail compares with the Sharp 92 series but based on comments by UMR and others that they there is no black crush and the shadow detail is amazing when viewing film based content on the KUROs until I observe otherwise I have no reason to not believe so ( the 5080 I observed at the Pioneer store had some dark space scenes and some bright nature scenes but did not have any dark scene film based content playing on it to observe shadow detail ).

The big deal breaker for me for the 92/93 series is the inability of taking a 1080p24fps signal and displaying it at an integer value rate. The ultra smooth pans that I observed on the 5080 were extremely impressive...

If you want me to rate the two panels giving a '10' to the best I would give the KURO a '10' and assuming the 93 series performs like the 92 series without the banding, an '8' to the Sharp ( though I agree the extra five inches, i.e. 17% more viewing area should definitely contribute to the WOW factor :-)

Interesting, I have never owned a plasma but have yet to observe significant reflections when observing them on display - I suspect great care is taken when placing them on the showroom floor to ensure excessive reflections do not occur.

In any case, Westa, I am sure you will enjoy the 93 series 65 inch Sharp - especially ince you already enjoy a prior generation 57 inch Sharp panel.

Best regards,

Tony

I have the matter of actually viewing the D93 and selling my 57" first and also waiting for the price to drop and that will take patience for them to clear the old 65" first.

Just to let you know, I saw the D93 and *WOW* is it nice! They were asking quite
a lot of money for it, though. I can't remember but it was around $10K+ Canadian.
I don't know what that equates to for you in the states, but the picture sure was
nice. I can't remember much on shadow detail, but it seemed nicer to me than the
new 70 inch Sony LCD (Mr. $35K+) I saw at the Sony store near me. Mind you, 70
inches in a flat panel appears crazy huge. Dunno why, but it gave the illusion of
being much larger than the SXRD's. Heh, I can't imagine how folks were knocked silly
by that 100+ inch sharp at the previous CES. The 65 inch alone is huge! Then again,
I'm currently using a 37 inch LCD until I get my new Pio, so I might not be the best
judge of size. ;)

But anyhow, my mind is set on the 60 inch Pio, and I couldn't be any happier. I've
seen the 5080's anti-glare and it's a whole lot better than lots of plasmas in that
respect, but not the panny PX77. Still, I found the PX77's PQ to be kinda muted
compared to even a glossy LG because of the anti-reflective/glare screen. I live in
a well-lit condo with blinds and I don't foresee any issues with the new Pio's with
respect to glare. It'll show some glare, I'm sure, with blinds open but it's still not
nearly as much as current plasmas. Incidentally, I saw a 5080 with a couple of
screens on the opposite end. The screens behind were showing a hockey game,
while the 5080 was on some dark movie (forgot). I saw some glare for sure, but
I was surprised on how well it reduced the glare. If the screen wasn't on such a
dark scene, I don't know if I would have seen the white hockey rink glare from the
tv's on the opposite end. Not bad at all. With the extra punch that the colours
have on this set, the effects of the glare seems even more reduced. It seems it'll
handle most situations except the extreme (ie: direct sunlight on TV or wall across
from it). With blinds closed, no issue.

I would also like to point out that the Panasonic 50px600U was rated much higher the the 50PX60U in Consumer reports. Out of 17 plasmas the 600U was 1st and 3rd while the 60U was 10th or 11th. Last years Pioneer was 8th.

Many have assumed the Panasonic plasmas were all the same glass with extra features as you climb up the line. This is not true. The 600U has a much better picture but most stores only carry the 60U.


False false false. Who is this guy and where does he get his info? It's bad enough that you tend to insult people who disagree with you and call them cheapskates. The 60u and 600u have identical picture quality. If you're going to go around being high-and-mighty, at least don't be ignorant.

It's bad enough using Consumer Reports as gospel on TV ratings. Consumer Reports is angled towards the general, well, consumer, and tends to include things like price/value and average out all factors. When a TV set is rated above another in CR, it doesn't mean it provides better PQ, it means it scored best in CR's averaged-out grading system.

Most people on AVS would put PQ as 90% (or more) of the rating and everything else as ancillary factors.

If you look at Consumer Reports actual ratings of the 60U and 600U (and I did, I own the 600U), you'll see that they give the two sets IDENTICAL RATINGS in picture quality for HD, DVD, and SD viewing. The difference in ranking is ENTIRELY DUE to the sound quality difference, because the 600U has the upgraded speakers! That's it! So it gives the 600U a higher average score, which was enough to bump it up several notches over the 60U.

Good lord, some people....

"If you think Vizio are comparable to Panasonic, you're blind."

That's a quote from our Panasonic pusher Hans in the Vizio differences with Panny thread.

Funny how Vizio's and Panasonic's can't be compared... yet he goes a-wall angelical about Pioneer vs. Panasonic. I personally think the 8g Pioneers distance themselves well beyond Panasonic, much more than say a Vizio vs. a Panasonic, (which is a big difference as well).

Tell that to Consumer Reports bub.

For a guy preaching about price to PQ ratio it sure seems more like a "Brandname" to "brandname" issue... or at least a total "my equipment" bias with Hans.

For anyone who can't readily check for themselves and might be taking any of this seriously, :rolleyes: CR rated the Vizio ahead of both of last year's Panasonics, on the basis of ease of use factors (remote and screen menus). As someone said, their overall ratings are tilted toward different consumers than those who frequent these pages.

Neither the 2007 Pioneers nor Panasonics have been rated yet.

I find CR to be a valuable tool, but it is necessary to pay attention to the details and assign your own weighting, because, as mentioned above, their priorities may well differ from your own. Moreover, they provide only one of many good tools, and should not be treated as sacred. (Nor should they be categorically dismissed by those who don't agree with them.)

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:o

Guess that was aimed at me...

Sorry, I do tend to over react at times.

Many have said the black level on the Pannys did not compare to the 8G Pioneers. When properly calibrated, it would appear that the Panny surpasses the Pioneer in black levels. A lot of you were saying, "just wait for the reviews to come out, you'll see." What now? Are you going to bash the reviewer and the website for not crowning your Pioneer as king?

would it not be much easier to get black bars to disappear into the bezel when the bezel is matte, like on the panasonic, as opposed to glossy, like on the pio?

So who does have the second best blacks in the world?

Are Pioneer worshipers allowed to give an opinion on that question?

So who does have the second best blacks in the world?

Are Pioneer worshipers allowed to give an opinion on that question?

If you're talking flat panels? Depending on how bright you like your TVs and your situation it could very be the Sharp D92 or the Samsung 65 series... both LCDs. Both are still very dark gray.

Hans, he is saying the difference in rating is due to AUDIO differences, not video differences. He is saying they ranked the same in actual video quality.

Shh, stop making sense to him!

Anyway, no need to publish that stuff, I am a Consumer Reports subscriber and am looking at the website right now.

And, yes, you are right that the 58" 600u is the highest rated 55"+ plasma. Only the Pio elite models outscore it (the 50" 1140HD and the 42" 940HD).

And, yes, you are right that the 600u is one of the best values out there. Remember, I own one also.

Nobody is disputing that.

The dispute is:

1. you are using Consumer Reports ranking of the Panny v. Pio to tout the Panny in this thread, and in the other thread you say you have to be "blind" to not see the difference in Panny v. Vizio, yet Consumer Reports ranks the 50" Vizio ahead of the 50" Panny -- see the inconsistency?

2. you somehow got the idea that the 600u and 60u are NOT the exact same TV save speakers/inputs/etc. The Consumer Reports rankings SUPPORT the idea that they are the same, because they get the same scores for all types of video quality. Consumer Reports averages out other factors, such as remote ease-of-use and audio quality, and that is why they are not a good source when comparing PICTURE QUALITY only.

I will post the actual consumer reports review in question. I have to scan the physical magazine review. The 2nd ranked 50" is a Hitachi. 3rd 50"600U. You cannot compare a 42" plasma to the 50" model. It's a different set and like you say, money determines the end rating.

In the most recent Issue, My Fuji S5200 camera $250 had a higher point rating than $1000 digital SLR's. My Fuji received 77-78 points and the digital SLR's in a different category received somewhere in the 60's. There's no way that my non SLR camera is as good as a Nikon or Canon Digital SLR.

What I am saying is the highest quality glass was put into the 600U vs. the 60U. You will probably not find much infor on this unless you contact Panasonic directly. The 600U get better speakers, PIP, Cable Card Reader, PC input and black bazel finish with a nicer stand for those that use it. If I forgot anything, correct me but if you believe Panasonic doesn't put slightly better glass in thier flagship unit but upgrade everything else, that's news to me.

This forum is filled with self proclaimed experts.

Pioneer 5080 owners will swear up and down the glass in the Pioneer 5080 is the same as the Elite. They say the only difference is improved software and the pure view mode. There's more to it than that for a $1,500 premium.

That $1,500 difference is what I paid for my entire 50" 600U. How can that value be beaten? The price is the same as the value Vizio P50

This is the Audio Video Science Forum - I cannot believe any member of this forum would rely upon Consumer Reports for high end display rankings..

Automobile reliability reports - yes - high end AV equipment - absolutely not.

What I am saying is the highest quality glass was put into the 600U vs. the 60U. You will probably not find much infor on this unless you contact Panasonic directly. The 600U get better speakers, PIP, Cable Card Reader, PC input and black bazel finish with a nicer stand for those that use it. If I forgot anything, correct me but if you believe Panasonic doesn't put slightly better glass in thier flagship unit but upgrade everything else, that's news to me. So you are saying Panasonic cherry picked the glass to go into the 600us? Interesting.

Pioneer 5080 owners will swear up and down the glass in the Pioneer 5080 is the same as the Elite. They say the only difference is improved software and the pure view mode. There's more to it than that for a $1,500 premium. Only for this year, the 768p Pioneers share the same glass. No "cherry picking". Last year's Pioneers did not share the same glass. The 8G 1080p Elites will be the only Pioneers that have difference glass when compared to their Pure line counterparts.

Hans, prior to the 7th generation Pioneer plasma displays, authorized dealers were not allowed to publish any other pricing than MAP. Instead of just listing a MAP price, we asked customers to please call for price. We continue to do this instead of the price search engines because of rapidly changing prices in this industry, but more importantly it allows us to personally communicate with individuals that are researching a potential purchase. Pricing isn't everything.

You cannot compare a 42" plasma to the 50" model.

I never did. I just told you what the CR scores were.

It's a different set and like you say, money determines the end rating.

I never said that. You did.

This forum is filled with self proclaimed experts.

Has a more ironic statement ever been typed?

Did I ever proclaim myself an expert? I'm just pointing out your numerous factual and logical errors. But you're like a slippery toad, once you get pinned down in one spot you squeeze away and are somewhere else. Whatever.

This is the Audio Video Science Forum - I cannot believe any member of this forum would rely upon Consumer Reports for high end display rankings..

Automobile reliability reports - yes - high end AV equipment - absolutely not.

Agreed.

The 8G 1080p Elites will be the only Pioneers that have difference glass when compared to their Pure line counterparts.

What?! I didn't know that! I wonder what kind of difference (if any) it'll provide.

Filter

Just for purposes of clarification:

Consumer Reports does not include price in their rankings. Their philosophy is to rank purely based on quality, and then let the reader decide how much he or she wants to spend to get a more highly ranked item. It makes their rankings "cleaner."

Of course, Consumer Reports has always been far better at making quality judgements about non-speciality items (like cars and household appliances) than AV equipment.

Filter

Not to sound like a broken record. But this filter does... what again?

The Pure color filter? The 1080p Elites are still lised as having the Digital Color III Plus filter while all other models have the Digital Color III filter.

^^^Is the difference just with the firmware or is the Plus filter something else entirely? Basheer mentioned something about this a few weeks ago but I did not get a definitive answer.

This is the Audio Video Science Forum - I cannot believe any member of this forum would rely upon Consumer Reports for high end display rankings..

Automobile reliability reports - yes - high end AV equipment - absolutely not.

This is what I thought, too. I am a fan of Consumer Reports, but after the Bose fiasco I figured most audiophiles and videophiles bailed on the magaziine.

Some posts have been removed.

Please stay on topic

thanks all