After reading all of these posts as well as others in this forum I am starting to wonder if it might not be Panasonic's bubble that is starting to burst. I get the impression that many are intimating that Panasonic has stood on its laurels for the last two years, forgoing serious technological advancement for the ability to get down and dirty with pricing. Many seem to be favorably comparing Pioneers 5080 to Panasonic's 1080p displays. Just an observation.

Panasonic will be showing their new tech advances at CEDIA and CEATEC this year. They will be incorporating the cost efficient new plasma production technology, that the plasma group (Pioneer, Panasonic, Hitachi) created together, in their '08 line. The new tech lowers power consumption and improves brightness, and reduces the costs of creating plasma glass. They will be touting a "redesigned" plasma cell structure and higher contrast ratio (I have no data stating they have reduces the minimum luminance...I do have info that they definitely have increased the brightness). Supposedly the '08 models will be the first Panasonics with a bonded color filter, 3 HDMI ports standard on all models.

When I get more info, I'll post it (in a Panasonic thread of course).

Panasonic will be showing their new tech advances at CEDIA and CEATEC this year. They will be incorporating the cost efficient new plasma production technology, that the plasma group (Pioneer, Panasonic, Hitachi) created together, in their '08 line. The new tech lowers power consumption and improves brightness, and reduces the costs of creating plasma glass. They will be touting a "redesigned" plasma cell structure and higher contrast ratio (I have no data stating they have reduces the minimum luminance...I do have info that they definitely have increased the brightness). Supposedly the '08 models will be the first Panasonics with a bonded color filter, 3 HDMI ports standard on all models.

When I get more info, I'll post it (in a Panasonic thread of course).
That's good news. Hopefully plasma technology will hold out for a while.

The 8G 1080p Elites will be the only Pioneers that have difference glass when compared to their Pure line counterparts.

Hi D-Nice. Last month, you said that the 8G 1080p Elites will have the same glass as their Pure line counterparts (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10761702&&#post10761702). Here, you seem to be saying the opposite. Could you please clarify this?

Also, I never got a response to my question on the other Pioneer thread about whether there is a difference in fill factor between the 7G and 8G models (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10852510&&#post10852510). The question wasn't directed specifically to you, but you seem quite knowledgeable so if you have some info. on this I'd be interested to hear it.

That's good news. Hopefully plasma technology will hold out for a while.

Whadda you mean "hold out for awhile"??? Haven't you been looking & reading about the latest generation of Pioneer plasma displays, or have you been on an extended camping trip in the Rockies...check it out, it's the real deal, and ups the PQ bar to a whole new level. Looks like LCD will be playing the "PQ catch-up game" for awhile longer, that is if you purchase your displays based on PQ rather than sales quotas.

Hi D-Nice. Last month, you said that the 8G 1080p Elites will have the same glass as their Pure line counterparts (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10761702&&#post10761702). Here, you seem to be saying the opposite. Could you please clarify this? I missed the 1080p part of your question when I read it and responded per the 768p Pioneer specs. My apologies for the error.

Also, I never got a response to my question on the other Pioneer thread about whether there is a difference in fill factor between the 7G and 8G models (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10852510&&#post10852510). The question wasn't directed specifically to you, but you seem quite knowledgeable so if you have some info. on this I'd be interested to hear it.There isn't any difference in fill factor between the 7G and 8G Pioneers.

Whadda you mean "hold out for awhile"??? Haven't you been looking & reading about the latest generation of Pioneer plasma displays, or have you been on an extended camping trip in the Rockies...check it out, it's the real deal, and ups the PQ bar to a whole new level. Looks like LCD will be playing the "PQ catch-up game" for awhile longer, that is if you purchase your displays based on PQ rather than sales quotas.Well, the LCD camp is betting on local dimming tech to counter plasma tech. It does look promising, however, I still do not like the grid based local dimming idea. I just see too many chances for artifacts and brightness fluctuations within the grids. Per pixel local dimming is the only thing that will beat plasma...IMO.

Well, the LCD camp is betting on local dimming tech to counter plasma tech. It does look promising, however, I still do not like the grid based local dimming idea. I just see too many chances for artifacts and brightness fluctuations within the grids. Per pixel local dimming is the only thing that will beat plasma...IMO.

So we're talking about 'areas' that dim instead of pixel by pixel? I wonder how large the grids are. And I don't think dark1x is commenting on picture quality in itself... but LCDs slow, yet accelerating over-taking of the plasma tech in sales.

Yes. Sales don't really bother the 'true' PQ fanatics in the forum. But in the big picture for the TV company producers, a cheaper way to manufacture and a more bright picture may sway some novice buyers.

Trust me. I think about 80 percent of most people who walk into a store and buy aren't very knowledgeable about TVs.

Panasonic will be showing their new tech advances at CEDIA and CEATEC this year. They will be incorporating the cost efficient new plasma production technology, that the plasma group (Pioneer, Panasonic, Hitachi) created together, in their '08 line. The new tech lowers power consumption and improves brightness, and reduces the costs of creating plasma glass. They will be touting a "redesigned" plasma cell structure and higher contrast ratio (I have no data stating they have reduces the minimum luminance...I do have info that they definitely have increased the brightness). Supposedly the '08 models will be the first Panasonics with a bonded color filter, 3 HDMI ports standard on all models.

When I get more info, I'll post it (in a Panasonic thread of course).


Thank you for this information.

I am a new member and based on this information that you have provided, I have a question please.

Does this mean that next year's panasonic plasma's will feature the same "superblack" technology that is being featured by pioneer this year?

I wonder if pioneer still holds some exclusive patents or if panasonic just agreed to not used the shared "superblack" technology until model year 2008?

If panasonic can/does utilize this tech next year, pioneer would either have to re-consider it's price point or come out with something even newer and better to enhance the picture quality even further..:)

Thank you for this information.

I am a new member and based on this information that you have provided, I have a question please.

Does this mean that next year's panasonic plasma's will feature the same "superblack" technology that is being featured by pioneer this year?

I wonder if pioneer still holds some exclusive patents or if panasonic just agreed to not used the shared "superblack" technology until model year 2008?

If panasonic can/does utilize this tech next year, pioneer would either have to re-consider it's price point or come out with something even newer and better to enhance the picture quality even further..:)

If you read D-nice's post. He makes no mention of the superblack tech. In fact, I think he stated earlier than Pioneer isn't letting anyone have the patent. If Panasonic manages to do something like the current Pio 8G... I'm sure they will let us know.

I have a feeling that Panasonic won't venture into the minimum luminence discharge too quickly. There's really no reason to. They're not catering to the pickiest of the picky... even though Panasonics are great TVs. They're still selling plenty of plasmas (to the majority of non-video discriminant buyers) and as D-nice indicates they seem to be moving towards an even more price friendly area to obtain more buyers.

I think alot of people are questioning Pioneers business choices. I sure love this new black level and I'm raving about it. I'm just not so sure enough people are going to jump on the Kuro band wagon when there's so many cheapo LCDs and cheaper plasmas. Under normal lighting at stores where Sony LCDs look like INK, alot of the blacks on flat panels look good enough... or even awesomely good.

Pioneer seems to be moving to a more 'hi-end' Fujitsu type status. Giving them alot more freedom in terms of innovation.

Does this mean that next year's panasonic plasma's will feature the same "superblack" technology that is being featured by pioneer this year? Absolutely not. Pioneer isn't licencing this tech to anyone.

I wonder if pioneer still holds some exclusive patents or if panasonic just agreed to not used the shared "superblack" technology until model year 2008?Pioneer holds the patents to vertical pre-charge tech. Again, they are not licensing it to anyone.

A few months ago in a Panasonic thread I stated that that a prototype Panasonic that was being displayed at a convention (10 lumes for every 2 watts of power) was Panasonics version of "Kuro". That info was incorrect. I meant to correct the error when my contact pointed it out. When I get more info on what they are "playing" with, I'll post it.

If you read D-nice's post. He makes no mention of the superblack tech. In fact, I think he stated earlier than Pioneer isn't letting anyone have the patent. If Panasonic manages to do something like the current Pio 8G... I'm sure they will let us know.

I have a feeling that Panasonic won't venture into the minimum luminence discharge too quickly. There's really no reason to. They're not catering to the pickiest of the picky... even though Panasonics are great TVs. They're still selling plenty of plasmas (to the majority of non-video discriminant buyers) and as D-nice indicates they seem to be moving towards an even more price friendly area to obtain more buyers.

I think alot of people are questioning Pioneers business choices. I sure love this new black level and I'm raving about it. I'm just not so sure enough people are going to jump on the Kuro band wagon when there's so many cheapo LCDs and cheaper plasmas. Under normal lighting at stores where Sony LCDs look like INK, alot of the blacks on flat panels look good enough... or even awesomely good.

Pioneer seems to be moving to a more 'hi-end' Fujitsu type status. Giving them alot more freedom in terms of innovation.Agreed. Panasonic blacks are very good and are "good enough" for the mainstream market. Mainstream like cheap prices first, 1080p second, big contrast numbers third, HDMI 1.3 fourth, and black levels fifth. Panasonic "should" be able to MSRP 42" 768p plasmas in the $900-$1100 range next year with the new tech. This new tech is a win-win situation for both consumer and manufacturer. Those MSRPs will still give Panasonic a larger profit than they are currently getting now.

So at last we have come full circle. If the folks at Panasonic would just read the origins of this thread, they would see that they do not need to come out with a more advanced technology. All they would have to do is keep on producting their 8th gen pro panels. After all, this thread was started to reveal how they are truly genuine "Pioneer Kuro Bubble Bursters. ;) ;)

...

Agreed. Panasonic blacks are very good and are "good enough" for the mainstream market. Mainstream like cheap prices first, 1080p second, big contrast numbers third, HDMI 1.3 fourth, and black levels fifth. Panasonic "should" be able to MSRP 42" 768p plasmas in the $900-$1100 range next year with the new tech. This new tech is a win-win situation for both consumer and manufacturer. Those MSRPs will still give Panasonic a larger profit than they are currently getting now.

Yea and it's really sad. These constant price drop wars can't be good for those interested in getting a really awesome product. If only people were educated before their decision making process. Most people just go 'Let's go buy a flat screen!" totally on a whim.

In a perfect world, everyone who was concerned with getting a quality TV would research before going to find the TV they like. They would educate themselves on calibration and director's intention vs. overblown torch crap. Once they narrow it down, they would try to mimic their room setting as close as possible. Then they would start looking at how dark the blacks look and how saturated and accurate the colors are and of course detail.

If you notice in almost all TV reviews done by 'professional magazines'. Their "performance" sections make note of three things first. Blacks, contrast, and colors. Stuff like 1080p are mentioned way after and usually say stuff like "I saw a difference but it was minimal and you have to sit close." Yet that's what everyone cares so much about. I say WTF?!?!

Ifmost people are in 'the know' we'd have deep inky blacks in flat panels as well as 6500k tracking with perfect color points a long while ago. It's sad for av enthusiasts. We would have had these Kuro plasmas alot earlier and... who knows? Maybe SED would've been out by now.

But it's not meant to be. 1080p and cheap prices will continue to dominate the market. As well as brandname recognition. So let's get our manufacturing down cheaper folks! Woohoo!

Agreed. Panasonic blacks are very good and are "good enough" for the mainstream market. Mainstream like cheap prices first, 1080p second, big contrast numbers third, HDMI 1.3 fourth, and black levels fifth...Nice summary (so to speak :rolleyes: ). I'm not sure black levels even rate a mention, though, as the mainstream buyer is only conscious of them if they are bad. I'd say apparent brightness is number two, demonstrated by the success of LCDs. It wins in the video showroom like loudness does in audio.
Trust me. I think about 80 percent of most people who walk into a store and buy aren't very knowledgeable about TVs. You must be seeing more sophisticated buyers than I do. I'd handicap it at >95%. ;) The stuff they accept from BB saleskids is appalling. :eek:

Nice summary (so to speak :rolleyes: ). I'm not sure black levels even rate a mention, though, as the mainstream buyer is only conscious of them if they are bad. I'd say apparent brightness is number two, demonstrated by the success of LCDs. It wins in the video showroom like loudness does in audio.
You must be seeing more sophisticated buyers than I do. I'd handicap it at >95%. ;) The stuff they accept from BB saleskids is appalling. :eek:

I agree. :) I'll go with your number.

If you read D-nice's post. He makes no mention of the superblack tech. In fact, I think he stated earlier than Pioneer isn't letting anyone have the patent. If Panasonic manages to do something like the current Pio 8G... I'm sure they will let us know.

I have a feeling that Panasonic won't venture into the minimum luminence discharge too quickly. There's really no reason to. They're not catering to the pickiest of the picky... even though Panasonics are great TVs. They're still selling plenty of plasmas (to the majority of non-video discriminant buyers) and as D-nice indicates they seem to be moving towards an even more price friendly area to obtain more buyers.

I think alot of people are questioning Pioneers business choices. I sure love this new black level and I'm raving about it. I'm just not so sure enough people are going to jump on the Kuro band wagon when there's so many cheapo LCDs and cheaper plasmas. Under normal lighting at stores where Sony LCDs look like INK, alot of the blacks on flat panels look good enough... or even awesomely good.

Pioneer seems to be moving to a more 'hi-end' Fujitsu type status. Giving them alot more freedom in terms of innovation.

Could Panasonics eventual markdowns lead to Pioneer perhaps cutting their prices down a bit? I'm sure it wouldn't be as dramatic, but a little price relief on the 8Gs would not suck. :)

Could Panasonics eventual markdowns lead to Pioneer perhaps cutting their prices down a bit? I'm sure it wouldn't be as dramatic, but a little price relief on the 8Gs would not suck. :)

Right. I'd love to buy cheap for sure. But ya gotta think about it this way... These companies really aren't our friends. They still want to make a profit. And to make profit you need to charge more than you manufacture it for.

The cheaper the prices go, the more ya gotta wonder. What do they have to take out to compensate for the prices? I'm sure newer technological advances plays a role in lower prices. But sooner or later it's gonna catch up. You start cutting corners... it's economics.

Right. I'd love to buy cheap for sure. But ya gotta think about it this way... These companies really aren't our friends. They still want to make a profit. And to make profit you need to charge more than you manufacture it for.

The cheaper the prices go, the more ya gotta wonder. What do they have to take out to compensate for the prices? I'm sure newer technological advances plays a role in lower prices. But sooner or later it's gonna catch up. You start cutting corners... it's economics.

I hear ya...you get what you pay for. And since I plan on using the next set I buy as my primary set for the next 5-10 years, I want the best. I've just heard rumors on this board that Pioneer may cut their prices in response to Panasonic's price cuts. Just wondering if those rumors acually held any weight.

I missed the 1080p part of your question when I read it and responded per the 768p Pioneer specs. My apologies for the error.

There isn't any difference in fill factor between the 7G and 8G Pioneers.

OK, thanks for the clarification. Do you happen to know how the glass differs between the two lines? E.g., is it merely a diffent anti-reflective coating, or is it something more fundamental having to do with, say, the rib structure, electrodes, phosphors, etc.?

Also, does the other part of your earlier response -- having to do with the differences between the pure and Elite lines regarding their ability to be ISF calibrated -- apply to the 768p's only, or to the 1080p's as well? [I.e., where you said: "The RGB controls are located in the SM. However, the Elite's 6 color management controls are not. Without those controls, you will not be able to get an exact replica of an Elite calibration.....but it would be very, very close."]

OK, thanks for the clarification. Do you happen to know how the glass differs between the two lines? E.g., is it merely a diffent anti-reflective coating, or is it something more fundamental having to do with, say, the rib structure, electrodes, phosphors, etc.?Color Filter

Also, does the other part of your earlier response -- having to do with the differences between the pure and Elite lines regarding their ability to be ISF calibrated -- apply to the 768p's only, or to the 1080p's as well? [I.e., where you said: "The RGB controls are located in the SM. However, the Elite's 6 color management controls are not. Without those controls, you will not be able to get an exact replica of an Elite calibration.....but it would be very, very close."]Same for the 1080p

Under normal lighting at stores where Sony LCDs look like INK, alot of the blacks on flat panels look good enough... or even awesomely good.


And that's the pity of it. So many people are fooled by this phenomena and will not notice the reality of what happens to those LCD black levels until they turn down their lights. Then again many/most still probably won't care.

I hear ya...you get what you pay for. And since I plan on using the next set I buy as my primary set for the next 5-10 years, I want the best. I've just heard rumors on this board that Pioneer may cut their prices in response to Panasonic's price cuts. Just wondering if those rumors acually held any weight.They will reduce prices to stay within the market sect, All manufacturers do this (to some degree).

So many people are fooled by this phenomena and will not notice the reality of what happens to those LCD black levels until they turn down their lights.

It's the opposite of the "meeting a chick at the low-lit dance club" phenomenon isn't it? (see underlined) :D

It's the opposite of the "meeting a chick at the low-lit dance club" phenomenon isn't it? (see underlined) :D

Ooo, did you have a few of those experiences?? :D

DNice have you seen the 1080p Pioneers ?
What is the countdown on the Pioneer website - 1080p introduction ?
Will the 1080p versions raise the bar beyond the new 768p Pio's ?
I finally saw the Black differential between the 700 Panny and the 5080 today and it was in one scene involving a black hockey helmet, the Pio had the helmet as in real world black if you were buying same in a store whereas the Panny was black but not the deep black of the Pioneer. I have to admit it took some time for me to finally see it with my own eyes but I am here to validate what the rest of you have seen. Must be the lighting in the big box stores. In any case I am mulling around whether to buy the 8G 768p or wait to see the 1080p over concern that perhaps there will be yet another leap in PQ within the Pioneer brand which seems to have risen above even Fuji in terms of overall PQ.

How can you try to compare any TV's that are in a store and not calibrated? The lighting sucks and yet you see the obvious difference. Cograts. I caught a 100lb salmon, you would have to see it to believe it but it's 100lbs.

Hans,

You sure do paint with a broad brush. :)

Having traveled around the country, I can tell you that some stores have excellant displays with dedicated viewing rooms with controlled lighting, good signals and properly adjusted displays(such that you won't be asking for the remote). There is one that even offers you bottled water. Although this isn't the norm, I can tell you they do exist.

How can you try to compare any TV's that are in a store and not calibrated? The lighting sucks and yet you see the obvious difference. Cograts. I caught a 100lb salmon, you would have to see it to believe it but it's 100lbs.

If the lighting is relatively dim such as in most Magnolia stores, and you have access to remotes, you can get a pretty good idea of what's going on. You can certainly get a great idea about black levels.

Lighting important but based on my observations over the past week, source and set up are perhaps even more critical. I was in a well lit store today with good source and set up watching men's tennis on the 5080. Awestruck with the PQ, simply a bar above everything else in the store including Panny 700's, Samsungs and Sony. Didnt need a dark environment to see the better blacks and processing of the 5080. Like the first time I saw the ability of a Fuji several years back, yup that good. I was in a CDN 2001 Audio Video store north of Toronto. The store mgr. said he had one guy come in that knew more about the 5080 then he did, reads the forum, brought in his own disks, set it up and then bought it.

Lighting important but based on my observations over the past week, source and set up are perhaps even more critical. I was in a well lit store today with good source and set up watching men's tennis on the 5080. Awestruck with the PQ, simply a bar above everything else in the store including Panny 700's, Samsungs and Sony. Didnt need a dark environment to see the better blacks and processing of the 5080. Like the first time I saw the ability of a Fuji several years back, yup that good. I was in a CDN 2001 Audio Video store north of Toronto. The store mgr. said he had one guy come in that knew more about the 5080 then he did, reads the forum, brought in his own disks, set it up and then bought it.

Yes, but the black differential is multiplied when you are in the dark.

Thank you once again for your reply.

I didn't meant to imply that you had stated that pioneer had licensed their proprietary technology to anyone else.

I was recalling that pioneer and panasonic had entered into a partnership to develop advanced plasma tech, and I thought the "superblack" technology may have been the result of such partnership.

Also, although my memory is getting worse in my old age..:) I do remember your previous post that you mentioned, and that's where I remembered that panasonic had some new tech that it would not feature until next year.

Thank you for putting the pieces together for me correctly...


Absolutely not. Pioneer isn't licencing this tech to anyone.

Pioneer holds the patents to vertical pre-charge tech. Again, they are not licensing it to anyone.

A few months ago in a Panasonic thread I stated that that a prototype Panasonic that was being displayed at a convention (10 lumes for every 2 watts of power) was Panasonics version of "Kuro". That info was incorrect. I meant to correct the error when my contact pointed it out. When I get more info on what they are "playing" with, I'll post it.

Ok, taking a 50PX700 and a 5080, tweaking them with a standard set up disc, who has the best overall PQ from 10ft considering SD, HD, HD DVD, and standard DVD using your choice of HD DVD players. In other words, can a really good, tweaked 768 set match a really good, tweaked 1080p set from 10ft?

Ok, taking a 50PX700 and a 5080, tweaking them with a standard set up disc, who has the best overall PQ from 10ft considering SD, HD, HD DVD, and standard DVD using your choice of HD DVD players. In other words, can a really good, tweaked 768 set match a really good, tweaked 1080p set from 10ft?

A new 8g Pioneer 768p set can beat the crap out of a 1080p set... regardless of where you sit. It all depends if screen door effect (which never bothered me excessively) can bug you enough to ignore the overwhelming PQ pluses of a revolutionary black level.

Let me rephrase that. Alot of 768p sets are better than 1080p sets. The same is true vice versa.

A new 8g Pioneer 768p set can beat the crap out of a 1080p set... regardless of where you sit. It all depends if screen door effect (which never bothered me excessively) can bug you enough to ignore the overwhelming PQ pluses of a revolutionary black level.

Let me rephrase that. Alot of 768p sets are better than 1080p sets. The same is true vice versa.
Why in the world would SDE be present? I've never had SDE on either of my Sharp 45/57" but I do view them primarily in dot-by-dot and no noise or SDE with HD in fact I can get within less than a foot and in some cases see no noise whatsoever especially with HD and BD - but I never have SDE. Why would a quality PDP have SDE or why would an owner tolerate it today? :)

Why in the world would SDE be present? I've never had SDE on either of my Sharp 45/57" but I do view them primarily in dot-by-dot and no noise or SDE with HD in fact I can get within less than a foot and in some cases see no noise whatsoever especially with HD and BD - but I never have SDE. Why would a quality PDP have SDE or why would an owner tolerate it today? :)

If you sit close to a 50 inch 768p... for me 5-6 feet, the grid becomes somewhat noticeable. If it was 1080p I woudln't see any SDE. That's the major improvement I see from 1080p over 768p in terms of movies.

But unlike the assumption, 1080p doesn't make or break a TVs PQ. Color accuracy, color saturation, contrast are much more important.

Well, first off, this my 10,000th post. What better place than one of the new Pioneer 8g threads to make it.

I'd like to thank everyone on AVS for certainly broadening my knowledge base over the years. In return, I hope I've helped a few folks follow the crooked path toward display bliss. It's been a lot of fun and my wife is certainly correct, I spend WAY too much time here. But boys must play and at least it keeps me out of more serious trouble. I've met some great people and made some friends as the result of AVS. I've had fun with folks like Mark Rubin and our Jersey Shore shootout. Hopefully there's more of that to come. :)

As for Johnny's post, I couldn't agree more. Although I believe 1080p is a benefit in larger displays, I don't feel it's anywhere near the top of the list for things I'd look for in a 50" or smaller display. Factors such as CR, color rendition, black levels etc. are far more important IMO than 1080p. Since 1080p sets have come out, I've been hard pressed to see much, if any, detail difference from typical broadcasts. Yes, they do produce a smoother picture, and the plasma I'll buy to replace my 50" Fujitsu will most certainly be 1080p. But that display will be either 60" or 65".

I agree 100% Johnny. I've heard that maybe Panasonic will release a 58PX77 or 75 but probably not and Pioneer will for sure not be releasing a 6080. If 768 is as good as 1080p beyond 8-10 ft in a 60", why no 768's in that size?

Why in the world would SDE be present? ..... Why would a quality PDP have SDE or why would an owner tolerate it today? :)

Simply put, plasma display panels do not have a 100% fill factor. Each light-emitting cell has barrier ribs surrounding it that do not emit light. At close proximity, the spacing between individual cells becomes apparent resulting in SDE. But as Johnny indicates, this is usually much closer than a normal viewing distance.

-Steve

I agree 100% Johnny. I've heard that maybe Panasonic will release a 58PX77 or 75 but probably not and Pioneer will for sure not be releasing a 6080. If 768 is as good as 1080p beyond 8-10 ft in a 60", why no 768's in that size?

This probably has more to do with economical reasons for Pioneer.

Well, first off, this my 10,000th post. What better place than one of the new Pioneer 8g threads to make it.

I'd like to thank everyone on AVS for certainly broadening my knowledge base over the years. In return, I hope I've helped a few folks follow the crooked path toward display bliss. It's been a lot of fun and my wife is certainly correct, I spend WAY too much time here. But boys must play and at least it keeps me out of more serious trouble. I've met some great people and made some friends as the result of AVS. I've had fun with folks like Mark Rubin and our Jersey Shore shootout. Hopefully there's more of that to come. :)

As for Johnny's post, I couldn't agree more. Although I believe 1080p is a benefit in larger displays, I don't feel it's anywhere near the top of the list for things I'd look for in a 50" or smaller display. Factors such as CR, color rendition, black levels etc. are far more important IMO than 1080p. Since 1080p sets have come out, I've been hard pressed to see much, if any, detail difference from typical broadcasts. Yes, they do produce a smoother picture, and the plasma I'll buy to replace my 50" Fujitsu will most certainly be 1080p. But that display will be either 60" or 65".

Congrats Ken, and it's been a pleasure reading your posts over the years. I know for myself that I've benefited from your AV knowledge, and want to thank you. Look forward to your future contributions on AVS, and hopefully I'll be here for your next milestone.

Well, first off, this my 10,000th post. What better place than one of the new Pioneer 8g threads to make it.

I'd like to thank everyone on AVS for certainly broadening my knowledge base over the years. In return, I hope I've helped a few folks follow the crooked path toward display bliss. It's been a lot of fun and my wife is certainly correct, I spend WAY too much time here. But boys must play and at least it keeps me out of more serious trouble. I've met some great people and made some friends as the result of AVS. I've had fun with folks like Mark Rubin and our Jersey Shore shootout. Hopefully there's more of that to come. :)....

Congrats to Ken Ross on his 10K milestone and helping all of us here on AVSforums.

Cheers Ken and here's to the next 10K :)

Congrats to Ken Ross on his 10K milestone and helping all of us here on AVSforums.

Cheers Ken and here's to the next 10K :)

What they said... and please, when you get your next 10 k going... give us some impressions on your new Pioneer!!

Congrats Ken on your 10thK post!

Now for God's sake when you get to 20K, don't do a 'Rogo' on us. Man I miss his expertise around here.
Bish

Congrats Ken on your 10,001 post.

We've got to talk photography sometime. :)

Bjorn's has an 1150 up and running a BD.

I was very impressed with the reduced reflection and black levels. I wish I would have taken a list of suggested settings. They have a remote to play with :D.

Stopping in could have been the worst thing I could have done. Now, I can say for certainty that I can not wait for the 60-inch Elite.

On the rumor side, it was suggested that they might see the 60-inchers around the third week of August. That's only like a month and a half :eek:. Any thoughts on this?

On the 1080p vs 768p debate well we will have our answer shortly , what if Pioneer has raised the 1080p bar to the same extent they did with 768p. Just when you thought it couldnt get any better in blacks and contrast maybe it will. Again for those with the patience to wait it out it wont be that long.

Thanks all. I wonder if when you hit 20,000, the AVS Gods call you home. :D

Don't let them take you away like they did Rogo!

Am I the only one to note one panel got a component signal and the other HDMI. Any comparison should be same source with the same output signal.

Saying HDMI is supposedly a better signal therefor advantage Pioneer is mistaken as HDMI is not always superior based on output (and sometimes) input device.

The Panasonic is a fine panel but this chaps comparison is not what I found in my own experience viewing both Pio (8G) and Panny consumer sets side by side (and yes I know the Panny commercial sets are better overall).

Why in the world would SDE be present? I've never had SDE on either of my Sharp 45/57" ... Why would a quality PDP have SDE...

I have no hard information, but I thought that the thickness of the grid of plasma cell walls is thicker than the inter-pixel spaces on LCDs.

Don't let them take you away like they did Rogo!

Art, that's what I'm afraid of. Do you think it hurts?

Animus, you're right, I've seen three different connection methodologies in the several Pioneers I've seen. They range from RF input to the HD tuner to HDMI and more commonly, component. It would be interesting to see how the last two methods compare on the 8g Pioneers, but generally I've found that HDMI does produce a somewhat better result. As you say, there are exceptions.

Congratulations to Ken:

Ken has been to my house a few times and I have always been impressed with his ability to spot and critique good picture quality: much better than I can !

If you can get Ken to go plasma shopping with you...you are all set :)

btw: Mark (Rogo) is still around

Thanks all. I wonder if when you hit 20,000, the AVS Gods call you home. :D

Congrats Ken, I just passed 1000 posts and consider myself such the newbie with so much to learn. I can't phathom getting to 10k posts. Thanks for your contribution and I hope to continue to learn from all the experts here.

Russ

Thanks all. I wonder if when you hit 20,000, the AVS Gods call you home. :D

Shouldn't you be getting a cake or something?

Thanks for all you contribute and your endless patience with us newbies.

Ken, can I borrow 2,000 posts from you :D

Ken: Congrats on your 10,000th post!!

When you reach 20,000 posts, you become the pro-tem moderator for the Plasma Flat Panel Displays. Its just a thought!

We're looking forward to your review of the Pioneer Pro-950HD.

Dave C.

Ken congrats and thanks for your thoughtful insights. They are a real help to all of us trying to come to terms with this quickly evolving technology.

One suggestion, if you would get rid of your displays you could devote more time to the forums instead of getting distracted with viewing from time to time. :D :D :D

Cheers and keep the posts coming, :)

Gary

What happened to Rogo?

Ken, can I borrow 2,000 posts from you :D

I will even take a couple from you ;)
Congrats Ken.

Ken, can I borrow 2,000 posts from you :D

Send me one of the 8g Elites and 2,000 posts will be on their way! :D

Vashti, I like chocolate. ;)

Thanks again to everyone for their kind remarks! It's fun celebrating not having a life!

For those curious to see the 5070HD and 5080HD side-by-side in NYC area, go to J&R (31 Park Row/City Hall)

Ken congrats and thanks for your thoughtful insights. They are a real help to all of us trying to come to terms with this quickly evolving technology.

One suggestion, if you would get rid of your displays you could devote more time to the forums instead of getting distracted with viewing from time to time. :D :D :D

Cheers and keep the posts coming, :)

Gary

...or he could do what I do...use a laptop and watch TV at the same time!:D

...or he could do what I do...use a laptop and watch TV at the same time!:D

I just assumed that's what we all did since we can't stand being away from our sets for more than 10 minutes :o

Thanks Ken for all your insight. Keep up the great work ! We need ya !

For those curious to see the 5070HD and 5080HD side-by-side in NYC area, go to J&R (31 Park Row/City Hall)

What were your impressions?. Thanks. :)

What were your impressions?. Thanks. :)

Unfortunately I only had less than ten minutes to check them. They were showing the Yankees Old-Timers' Day. I can honestly say that it was hard to see a difference in black levels with very bright scenes. The 5080 was a bit sharper and the screen had less reflection compared to the 5070.

However, when showing top/bottom bars, the 5070 had a very dark gray color (Just like on my 50PH9UK :( ) while on the 5080 they were BLACK matching the bezel. Simply Great!!! :D

It might not look too impressive for some people but seeing such deep blacks on a Plasma it's quite of a excitement for me :D

Can't comment any further without spending more time with the 5080 (perhaps change some settings) and do a better evaluation.

I don't understand all this talk about folks mainly seeing differences in black. I find
the biggest differences I've seen everywhere were just how deep the colours looked
on the 5080/4280 than everything else I've seen, and there's so much more detail
on many scenes that I never knew existed. Folks talk about detail during dark scenes,
but there seems to be lots of stuff lost on brighter scenes too that this TV catches.
I also noticed stuff seemed to pan across the screen a whole lot smoother on these
sets. These sets are a whole lot more than just better blacks. It really makes me
curious to know how great the Elites and 1080P sets will be. I'm eyeing the 150FD
for my future set, and I can't express how excited I am deep down. I can't believe
this thing's colours are as deep as my old Sony XBR HDTV Tube (40 inch 40XBR800)
and, yet, displays a whole lot more detail than anything around. I do worry about
sitting 7.5-8 feet away from a 60 inch 1080P plasma a bit (hope it's not overkill), but
I think I can live with it. :)

Pioneer G8 bubble starting to burst?

This has to be one of the most absurd hyperbole thread starter titles in the history of this forum. He finds one guy who posts his observations of his comparisons and judgements, and his version of what was tweaked or not, and on this single bit of third party comments, he decides to post such an over the top thread title. :rolleyes:

...Agreed. Notice how quickly this thread grew in defense? While the "Official" threads floundered when folks were seeking solutions! Priorities priorities!

I don't understand all this talk about folks mainly seeing differences in black. I find
the biggest differences I've seen everywhere were just how deep the colours looked
on the 5080/4280 than everything else I've seen, and there's so much more detail
on many scenes that I never knew existed. Folks talk about detail during dark scenes,
but there seems to be lots of stuff lost on brighter scenes too that this TV catches.
I also noticed stuff seemed to pan across the screen a whole lot smoother on these
sets. These sets are a whole lot more than just better blacks. It really makes me
curious to know how great the Elites and 1080P sets will be. I'm eyeing the 150FD
for my future set, and I can't express how excited I am deep down. I can't believe
this thing's colours are as deep as my old Sony XBR HDTV Tube (40 inch 40XBR800)
and, yet, displays a whole lot more detail than anything around. I do worry about
sitting 7.5-8 feet away from a 60 inch 1080P plasma a bit (hope it's not overkill), but
I think I can live with it. :)

Yes. People need to get that blacker blacks doesn't just mean the obvious. Yes, you'll get scenes that look properly dark. Yes you'll have deeper black and dark areas in the picture. But it affects bright scenes as well. It'll look more punchy, as well as render colors in a much more vivid, saturated, and powerful way... w/o that BS torch mode crap. Mind you this gets really important when you watch in the dark.

Those who are familiar with displays that have a dark gray black you'll notice that sometimes even your bright scenes doesn't look as saturated as it should be.

For the record, I just wanted to compare the black levels. That's all !!!

I must admit that I haven't spent time with the new Panny and new Pio
side by side, etc. but from what I have seen, there is no flat panel on the market
that can touch the 5080 that I saw when it comes to Black Level...

According to who? We have an owner here who say's that the Pio's crush the blacks, that's very disappointing.

I am getting ready to buy a 5080 but before I do would like some comfort that these comments about 'flicker', 'noise' and 'grain' are one off exceptions, hoping that's the case because I havent seen the issues and still believe it is currently the best PQ on the planet.

We'll look forward to reading your review of the SED Killer...when do you plan order?

I've seen the new Panny in stores, its nice but not really anything to get excited about. I already have a Panny Plasma that puts out a good picture, however the blacks, just like ever other plasma that's ever been made, keeps me hoping and dreaming for the arrival of SED, God's gift to display technology.

I am getting ready to buy a 5080 but before I do would like some comfort that these comments about 'flicker', 'noise' and 'grain' are one off exceptions, hoping that's the case because I havent seen the issues and still believe it is currently the best PQ on the planet.


Well out of 200 units sold I think I have seen 2 or 3 issues. So I would say thats pretty good.

Well out of 200 units sold I think I have seen 2 or 3 issues. So I would say thats pretty good.


What were the two or three issues that you have seen, and what were the causes of them, and what were the solutions to those issues. Thanks. :)

According to who? We have an owner here who say's that the Pio's crush the blacks, that's very disappointing.

The Auditor trolls again. Auditor is a classic example of why you need to diversify your investments in things other than SED. Oh, and Auditor, most owners report no black crush. You lose again! :D

I've seen the new Panny in stores, its nice but not really anything to get excited about. I already have a Panny Plasma that puts out a good picture, however the blacks, just like ever other plasma that's ever been made, keeps me hoping and dreaming for the arrival of SED, God's gift to display technology.

Oh they're made now Auditor, it's called the Pioneer 8g. Time for you to take a stroll down "SED memory lane". You remember, when SED 'appeared' to be a viable product, right before it imploded?

According to who? We have an owner here who say's that the Pio's crush the blacks, that's very disappointing.

So.. since there are no SED owners. I guess I'll have to take your word for how "God's gift"ly they are?

Well okay just to make it fair ground. I'll say SED sucks. So according to Auditorian logic apparently since one person believes they suck. The technology sucks.

Man I kind of wish SED is out now just so you can play 'defense' of your precious tech for every person who bought their 5000 dollar 42 inch panel and complained. But all of this is theoretical for now isn't it...?

(sigh)

Who's to say that SEDs are going to be "God's gift"...there going to be overpriced during their initial release. They'll likely have all kinds of issues. Their release keeps being delayed for whatever reason. SEDs may eventually become the Kings of HDTVs, but we're talking years down the road.

What were the two or three issues that you have seen, and what were the causes of them, and what were the solutions to those issues. Thanks. :)

Well you can look at one or two in the owners thread (not necesarily bought from me) the ones I am talking about are pixels and buzzing to be honest with you its things that happened to 7th generation Pioneers as well but the bottom line is Pioneer usually steps up. The odds are good and thats what I was trying to say.

Who's to say that SEDs are going to be "God's gift"...there going to be overpriced during their initial release. They'll likely have all kinds of issues. Their release keeps being delayed for whatever reason. SEDs may eventually become the Kings of HDTVs, but we're talking years down the road.

Yea. And Megan Fox is going to be "god's gift" to display technology when Transformers goes HD. Meeow!

According to who? We have an owner here who say's that the Pio's crush the blacks, that's very disappointing.


According to the person who wrote the post that you quoted. He said it was his opinion of what he looked at, as opposed to your opinion of the now Defunct SED project, which you actually never looked at.

The now available for purchase Pioneer Kuro Plasmas trump your never available to purchase fantasy SED sets.

The Pioneer Kuro's Blacks are also far less Crushed, than your unfulfilled SED , dreams. :D :D :D

...

Well you can look at one or two in the owners thread (not necesarily bought from me) the ones I am talking about are pixels and buzzing to be honest with you its things that happened to 7th generation Pioneers as well but the bottom line is Pioneer usually steps up. The odds are good and thats what I was trying to say.

Thanks for the reply. Those are really just a few minor things. Some stuck pixels are common to all plasma brands, and not many seem to have experienced them to date. As for buzzing, well most people are reporting that the Pioneer Kuro sets are very quite.

What was ever determined with the one chap that had a Pioneer Tech. coming to his house to check out the set that your customer said had some severe granularity in the image processing?. Thanks. :)

Yea. And Megan Fox is going to be "god's gift" to display technology when Transformers goes HD. Meeow!

Yep...Transformers will join Fantastic Four <cough> Jessica Alba <cough> as God's gift to displays :D

Who's to say that SEDs are going to be "God's gift"...there going to be overpriced during their initial release. They'll likely have all kinds of issues. Their release keeps being delayed for whatever reason. SEDs may eventually become the Kings of HDTVs, but we're talking years down the road.

There will be no SED's in the US, period. That project ended w/Canon losing its patent lawsuit, and pulling the plug on any plans for a mfg. facility. Also, the arrival of the Pioneer 1080p 8G 60" Elite at CES in Jan. '07 was deemed the "SED Killer" by the A/V Press because of the big advances in black levels, contrast, color and overall PQ which made the whole SED venture by Canon moot.

There will be no SED's in the US, period. That project ended w/Canon losing its patent lawsuit, and pulling the plug on any plans for a mfg. facility. Also, the arrival of the Pioneer 1080p 8G 60" Elite at CES in Jan. '07 was deemed the "SED Killer" by the A/V Press because of the big advances in black levels, contrast, color and overall PQ which made the whole SED venture by Canon moot.

Interesting, I did not know that. Do you have a link by any chance?

According to the person who wrote the post that you quoted. He said it was his opinion of what he looked at, as opposed to your opinion of the now Defunct SED project, which you actually never looked at.

The now available for purchase Pioneer Kuro Plasmas trump your never available to purchase fantasy SED sets.

The Pioneer Kuro's Blacks are also far less Crushed, than your unfulfilled SED , dreams. :D :D :D

...

You don't miss anything do you ? :) I am waiting to hear from the client, sometimes if I don't that means it was fixed. Either way we will do our best.

Interesting, I did not know that. Do you have a link by any chance?

After over 3 years of discussing it, the SED topic has about run its course around here. Just one big disappointment after another until now it's definitely on the Video History Trashpile of what "couldda, wouldda, shouldda".

There will be no SED's in the US, period. That project ended w/Canon losing its patent lawsuit, and pulling the plug on any plans for a mfg. facility. Also, the arrival of the Pioneer 1080p 8G 60" Elite at CES in Jan. '07 was deemed the "SED Killer" by the A/V Press because of the big advances in black levels, contrast, color and overall PQ which made the whole SED venture by Canon moot.

That's the thing that always makes me laugh about Auditor's posts. He can't seem to come to grips with the fact that people that have seen both SED and the 8g Pioneers, say the Pioneer is absolutely the equal if not better. I haven't seen one person that saw both technologies say the SED was better.

But when you have the financial stake in SED technology that Auditor obviously does, you feel complelled to knock those technologies that are both better and available! ;)

At this poinit we should all look at Auditor's posts as little more than comic relief!

the funniest thing is that someone supposedly looking for the best display wants to boycott the best media for that display :rolleyes:

Interesting, I did not know that. Do you have a link by any chance?


Here it is, straight from the mouth of The Canon. Bad pun intended. Official Canon announcement on 5/25/07

http://www.canon.com/press/2007/sed2007may25.html

Pay particular attention to the part where Canon lets the real cat out of the bag: They admit that they had not even established a proper mass production technology to produce the product. Without having engineered such a critical step, they really were not even close to producing the product, patent suit or not.

...

the funniest thing is that someone supposedly looking for the best display wants to boycott the best media for that display :rolleyes:

Yes I'm boycotting them because its stupid to have two formats. I'm not a sucker for the industry. I don't buy something because corporate marketeer tells me I should.

How many times are you going to buy Fifth Element shees!!

Yes I'm boycotting them because its stupid to have two formats. I'm not a sucker for the industry. I don't buy something because corporate marketeer tells me I should.

How many times are you going to buy Fifth Element shees!!

Except for Toshiba and Canon! :)

That's the thing that always makes me laugh about Auditor's posts. He can't seem to come to grips with the fact that people that have seen both SED and the 8g Pioneers, say the Pioneer is absolutely the equal if not better. I haven't seen one person that saw both technologies say the SED was better.

But when you have the financial stake in SED technology that Auditor obviously does, you feel complelled to knock those technologies that are both better and available! ;)

At this poinit we should all look at Auditor's posts as little more than comic relief!


Ken,

Your the one that's funny, there is no one any obsolete technology by Panasonic or Pio can come close to SED. Those of you who are anti-progress, rejoice now, but I'm telling you the cat is out of the bag, we have taken I bite of the apple. Those in the industry already know that SED is the future of display technology.

It makes sick the we are temporarily stuck with an obsolete technology. Why settle for 20,000-1 when you can have 100,000-1 CR, no dithering, no color banding, no crushed blacks, lighter, thinner, more energy efficient and enviormentally friendly, vastly superior response time, brighter, superior fill factor, no screen door, more flexible. SED technology allow screens size that can fit in cell phones as well as screens large enough for football stadiums. Can you say the same about PDP?

Ken,

Your the one that's funny, there is no one any obsolete technology by Panasonic or Pio can come close to SED. Those of you who are anti-progress, rejoice now, but I'm telling you the cat is out of the bag, we have taken I bite of the apple. Those in the industry know already know that SED is the future of display technology.

It makes sick the we are temporarily stuck with an obsolete technology. Why settle for 20,000-1 when you can have 100,000-1 CR, no dithering, no color banding, no crushed blacks, lighter, thinner, more energy efficient and enviormentally friendly, vastly superior response time, brighter, superior fill factor, no screen door, more flexible. SED technology allow screens size that can fit in cell phones as well as screens large enough for football stadiums. Can you say the same about PDP?

I think you're mistaking SED with the superior... OLED. ;)

I think you're mistaking SED with the superior... OLED. ;)

OLED is great but doesn't seem as flexible as SED.

OLED is great but doesn't seem as flexible as SED.

Let's see OLED can be made even thinner... and larger... and it can fit on a t-shirt. It also can be retrofitted behind mirrors as well as mimic that crap we saw on Minority Report.

You can bend OLED... that's more FLEXIBLE to me!

SED is just another plasma w/ some overblown qualities that will never exist in the consumer market. SED is not THINNER than LCD and Plasma displays. Go research your own beloved tech before you start preaching about it. And if you want to use overblown manufacturer contrast ratios... Sony seems to be your best friend. An OLED that does 1,000,000:1. So much more than SED! Yaaay.

Now let's stay with the better Pioneer TV please.

Pioneer 8g bubble starting to burst thread - unsubscribe - check

Pioneer 8g bubble starting to burst thread - unsubscribe - check

No doubt. It sickens me that there are so many brand name fan boys that they start threads against other brands other than the ones they like/own. Those people are lower than a toiler bug! :mad: \

Uncheck - I am unsubscribed as well.

Auditor55, johnnybrulez is correct. OLED is an infinitely more flexible technology (both literally and figuratively).

Like he mentioned, it literally can be flexible, bent like a thin piece of plastic, etc. See the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcAm3KihFho

In the figurative sense, it is flexible because it can be used for a vast array of purposes.

1) OLEDs can be almost totally transparent, like a window. This makes them useful for Heads-up displays (HUDs) in cars, airplanes, novelty sunglasses, and a million things like that.

2) OLEDs can be set to emit light only in the infrared spectrum, great for soldiers who are wearing infrared goggles during military missions.

3) OLEDs are predicted to eventually replace the light bulb, or at least become a very popular new source of lighting.

etc etc

Ken,

Your the one that's funny, there is no one any obsolete technology by Panasonic or Pio can come close to SED. Those of you who are anti-progress, rejoice now, but I'm telling you the cat is out of the bag, we have taken I bite of the apple. Those in the industry already know that SED is the future of display technology.

It makes sick the we are temporarily stuck with an obsolete technology. Why settle for 20,000-1 when you can have 100,000-1 CR, no dithering, no color banding, no crushed blacks, lighter, thinner, more energy efficient and enviormentally friendly, vastly superior response time, brighter, superior fill factor, no screen door, more flexible. SED technology allow screens size that can fit in cell phones as well as screens large enough for football stadiums. Can you say the same about PDP?

And once again, just as I said in my original post, you have totally ignored EYE WITNESSES that have seen both the 8g Pioneers and SEDs and have reported the Pioneer is absolutely, positively the equal of SED. This is precisely why SED is dead, there is no need for an expensive piece of vaporware that has already been equaled or surpassed by improved, existing technology.

You seem to take great 'pride' in calling plasma technology 'old' and SED 'new'. My feeling is I could care less if the technology is new, old or medieval...as long as it produces the best picture available that's all I or anyone should be concerned about. So go on your merry way Auditor and ignore the people that have actually seen both technologies and have proven you 100% wrong.

You continue to amaze...talk about someone in denial..holy cow!!!!!! But then again, I don't have all my investments tied up in a defunct technology. Diversify Auditor, diversify...it's rule one of smart investing! :rolleyes:

I think you're mistaking SED with the superior... OLED. ;)

Hey Johnny, "SED" "OLED"...they're only letters! :D

OLED is great but doesn't seem as flexible as SED.

I think I'm beginning to see why you make poor investment decisions. Auditor, you really should read up on these technologies before you invest, you seem quite confused.

Auditor & BladeRunner make life interesting, they must be good at flyfishing because the trout love to bite their flies. But come on Auditor , why get into the same old tired SED vaporware discussion on the 8G thread. Now we'll run off topic for several pages before getting back to the NEW KING all hail THE KING, well at least until the 1080p version gets launched presumably in 24 hours if I've figured out the Pio website correctly.

Ken,

Your the one that's funny, there is no one any obsolete technology by Panasonic or Pio can come close to SED. Those of you who are anti-progress, rejoice now, but I'm telling you the cat is out of the bag, we have taken I bite of the apple. Those in the industry already know that SED is the future of display technology.

It makes sick the we are temporarily stuck with an obsolete technology. Why settle for 20,000-1 when you can have 100,000-1 CR, no dithering, no color banding, no crushed blacks, lighter, thinner, more energy efficient and enviormentally friendly, vastly superior response time, brighter, superior fill factor, no screen door, more flexible. SED technology allow screens size that can fit in cell phones as well as screens large enough for football stadiums. Can you say the same about PDP?

Is it so hard to enjoy what's available now....just for what it is? I'm going to buy a new "Kuro" display in September. I will get out of the market to enjoy it for 5-6 years and then make it my second TV to make room for a better technology in the future. I DON'T CARE WHAT THAT TECHNOLOGY IS. It could be SED, it could be OLED, or maybe even a better version of plasma. My ego will allow me to admit that new technology is better than the plasma I'm about to purchase. I'll enjoy that too!
It's entertaining watching people turn this into an 'I told you so' contest.

To Ken Ross: love the Fujitsu/8G comparisons.....keep elaborating.

The thread should be called "Pioneer G8 Money Bag about to burst' :-)

What plasma owner would not want one of these new Pioneer 8G Plasmas?

The thread should be called "Pioneer G8 Money Bag about to burst' :-)

What plasma owner would not want one of these new Pioneer 8G Plasmas?

People that do in-depth comparisons at Best Buy with their ****** feeds, bad home theater lighting, without remote controls.

Ya know what Best Buy is? A battle of who can be brighter, and who can screw up the already screwed up source as much as it can so it'll look decent.

They feed these TVs utter crap. The ones that enhance the most win. Egh.

Let's see OLED can be made even thinner... and larger... and it can fit on a t-shirt. It also can be retrofitted behind mirrors as well as mimic that crap we saw on Minority Report.

You can bend OLED... that's more FLEXIBLE to me!

SED is just another plasma w/ some overblown qualities that will never exist in the consumer market. SED is not THINNER than LCD and Plasma displays. Go research your own beloved tech before you start preaching about it. And if you want to use overblown manufacturer contrast ratios... Sony seems to be your best friend. An OLED that does 1,000,000:1. So much more than SED! Yaaay.

Now let's stay with the better Pioneer TV please.

If its OLED, lets have it!! But please don't try to force feed us some old outdated technology. I give Pioneer some credit for trying to give that obsolete technology a face lift, but for those of us that on the quest for display technology nirvana, the 8g just doesn't do it.

Is it so hard to enjoy what's available now....just for what it is? I'm going to buy a new "Kuro" display in September. I will get out of the market to enjoy it for 5-6 years and then make it my second TV to make room for a better technology in the future. I DON'T CARE WHAT THAT TECHNOLOGY IS. It could be SED, it could be OLED, or maybe even a better version of plasma. My ego will allow me to admit that new technology is better than the plasma I'm about to purchase. I'll enjoy that too!
It's entertaining watching people turn this into an 'I told you so' contest.

To Ken Ross: love the Fujitsu/8G comparisons.....keep elaborating.

Very intelligent post.

Auditor55, johnnybrulez is correct. OLED is an infinitely more flexible technology (both literally and figuratively).

Like he mentioned, it literally can be flexible, bent like a thin piece of plastic, etc. See the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcAm3KihFho

In the figurative sense, it is flexible because it can be used for a vast array of purposes.

1) OLEDs can be almost totally transparent, like a window. This makes them useful for Heads-up displays (HUDs) in cars, airplanes, novelty sunglasses, and a million things like that.

2) OLEDs can be set to emit light only in the infrared spectrum, great for soldiers who are wearing infrared goggles during military missions.

3) OLEDs are predicted to eventually replace the light bulb, or at least become a very popular new source of lighting.

etc etc

I would love a 55 inch OLED, when can I get one? I like the new Panny Plasma's, but since I own last years Panny Plasma, I don't think I'll ever buy another Plasma. I don't want a big old heavy energy sucking plasma as my display further into the 21st century.

Also, Plasma is losing the display wars to LCD.

But come on Auditor , why get into the same old tired SED vaporware discussion on the 8G thread.

This is the "Pioneer G8 bubble starting to burst" Thread.

The original poster didn't intend on this thread being the official, "let us worship at the alter of the Pio G8" thread. He wanted to expose the fraudlent claims that Pioneer have been making about the G8 being somekind of new plasma technology. Its seems that this Plasma, just like all other plasma that have ever been made, still crush blacks. They either don't get black enough (dark gray) or they crush blacks. DLP has that same problem. I would never buy a DLP. I'm starting to give up on plasma. This why we NEED A NEW TECHNOLOGY, WAKE UP PEOPLE PLEASE!! Send a message to the industry that there is a market for OLED and SED.

Canon will announce a new launch schedule for SED televisions at a future date.

5/25/07

That is why I'm keeping the dream alive.

Send a message to the industry that there is a market for OLED and SED.

Surely you realize that the industry can hardly meet current demands for large LCD displays, which have very poor blacks as compared to plasma: and they are in a price war as the LCD's become a commodity item

Given this senario, it is highly unlikely that any message about OLED or SED will have any effect at all on the industry

We appreciate that you keep pushing for improving the state of the art of display technology, but these are the facts and I don't see any change for several years

Sorry Auditor: but I think you need a dose of reality :o

People dont care about oled and sed until they will be available, in production with release dates..
I would love to be able to buy a 100:000:1 ratio sed or oled but it is just a dream for now. 20:000:1 plasma aint bad if it dont crush blacks. Few pictures i have seen looked like good shadow detail, i havent seen a 8g yet, maybe today, but am more excited with the 20:000:1 models. You should of kept the vizio auditor and then upgraded to the 8g, jumped a little to soon for a panny imo :) Now you stuck with inferior panny, sell and diversify :D

Most of us would rather have a display that's great now than wait another 4 years for something better
I'm glad we have a great display to show off the two HD formats......competition is good!

Canon will announce a new launch schedule for SED televisions at a future date.

5/25/07

That is why I'm keeping the dream alive.

Can that get any more vague? Canon WILL announce a NEW launch schedule for SED televisions at a FUTURE date. So they can't even announce a date for the announcement of a release schedule.

I hear holographic TVs are only 40 years away. ;)

Ok, I'll put it out to you very simply...gizlaroc's credibility on this matter of the Pioneer G8's rates very low when you compare it to the many professional journalists & many other respected members in the AV community that have stated quite the opposite. I stress the word "opposite". Might it be that gizlaroc is just too inexperienced & unknowledgeable as to what exactly makes the best PQ, and that his brief review can only hold the merits of that limited knowledge?

Its a shame that all you guys have trashed and flamed this poor man for his honest opinions.

Can that get any more vague? Canon WILL announce a NEW launch schedule for SED televisions at a FUTURE date. So they can't even announce a date for the announcement of a release schedule.

Its my reason for keeping hope alive, can a man dream! :D

People dont care about oled and sed until they will be available, in production with release dates..
I would love to be able to buy a 100:000:1 ratio sed or oled but it is just a dream for now. 20:000:1 plasma aint bad if it dont crush blacks. Few pictures i have seen looked like good shadow detail, i havent seen a 8g yet, maybe today, but am more excited with the 20:000:1 models. You should of kept the vizio auditor and then upgraded to the 8g, jumped a little to soon for a panny imo :) Now you stuck with inferior panny, sell and diversify :D


But why would you continue to spend 6-7 thousand every year trying to have the latest and greatest? Some of these folks upgrade almost every year seeking the ulimate display. Why not wait for the revolutionary display technology instead of upgrading each year for marginal improvements?

But why would you continue to spend 6-7 thousand every year trying to have the latest and greatest? Some of these folks upgrade almost every year seeking the ulimate display. Why not wait for the revolutionary display technology instead of upgrading each year for marginal improvements?Are you footing the bill for people to wait?

If its OLED, lets have it!! But please don't try to force feed us some old outdated technology. I give Pioneer some credit for trying to give that obsolete technology a face lift, but for those of us that on the quest for display technology nirvana, the 8g just doesn't do it.

Auditor, here's a hint: Repeating a lie over and over does not make it a truth. :rolleyes:

Oh, and Auditor, the new 8g Pioneers ARE 'some kind of new plasma technologoy' and they DON'T crush blacks. Again, repeating a lie doesn't make it a truth.

Are you footing the bill for people to wait? Why bother with this debate?..... off topic anyway.

Its a shame that all you guys have trashed and flamed this poor man for his honest opinions.

It's one thing having honest opinions Auditor and it's quite another thing trashing huge improvements on existing technologies that most are raving about! You trash a technology that has been stated to be the picture quality EQUAL of your beloved SED. What does that say about SED? Your trashing should then logically extend to SED. You can't have it both ways. You trash an improved technology you've never seen and praise a still-borne technology you also haven't seen.

I find this behavior several levels beyond odd.

Its my reason for keeping hope alive, can a man dream! :D


Just stay in the same mood that you alway have been; heavily SEDated!.

Canon recommends that people ask their Doctors if Delusionol might be right for them. ;)

Auditor, here's a hint: Repeating a lie over and over does not make it a truth. :rolleyes:

Oh, and Auditor, the new 8g Pioneers ARE 'some kind of new plasma technologoy' and they DON'T crush blacks. Again, repeating a lie doesn't make it a truth.

Black Levels.
The Panasonic is the winner here, by the time you release the same detail on both the Pioneer is the lighter of the two, I really wasn't expecting that!!!!
The PH range has a much better black and detail retrieval than the Viera range and so does the Pioneer, but to get the Pio to match the Panasonic for absolute black you are crushing detail. This to me wouldn't be a problem and the difference is not much at all, but it is there and easy to see when they are next to each other.
I would always take a slightly crushed black that is black than a dark grey with all the detail there.

According to this man's testimony, his Pio 8G, crushed blacks.

My point is, I have had a bit of experience with flat panels, and I stand by what I say, in normal viewing conditions there is nothing between the black levels of my PHD8 and the 428, with just a lamp on you still cant tell the difference, however turn the lights off completely and you can tell the Pioneer goes darker, and at that point they don't look crushed either, you can see real low level detail, however I never watch in a pitch black room anyway, so it is a slight black crush for me and inky black borders.

It seems to me people like to "selectively read". You don't judge black level performance in a lit up room. So while Auditor and Pioneer haters seem to read all the bad and point it out... they never actually read what's being said.

If you're not watching in a darkened room, black levels become less apparent, and you have to brighten the picture compensate for shadow detail. This is basic AVS stuff guys. Stop getting your fanboy undies all scruffled up.

It seems to me people like to "selectively read". You don't judge black level performance in a lit up room. So while Auditor and Pioneer haters seem to read all the bad and point it out... they never actually read what's being said.

If you're not watching in a darkened room, black levels become less apparent, and you have to brighten the picture compensate for shadow detail. This is basic AVS stuff guys. Stop getting your fanboy undies all scruffled up.

I understand what you are saying. I'm not a Pioneer hater. I like Pioneer, they should be commended for doing there best to push the envelope with PDP technology.

Time to ask the moderator to delete all of Auditor55's post.

Just think, all that work for nothing. :)

I can't understand why people can get so undone about a television.

It reminds me of one of the great quotes from "Fight Club":

"You buy furniture. You tell yourself, this is the last sofa I will ever need in my life. Buy the sofa, then for a couple years you're satisfied that no matter what goes wrong, at least you've got your sofa issue handled. Then the right set of dishes. Then the perfect bed. The drapes. The rug. Then you're trapped in your lovely nest, and the things you used to own, now they own you."---Tyler Durden

that's the full quote

According to this man's testimony, his Pio 8G, crushed blacks.

Why is it that guys like you will ALWAYS cull all the posts they can find and pick out the ONE post that has a differening opinion. If 1,000 people raved about the black levels and said there was no black crush and one guy said there was, you'd pull out that one post as 'proof'. Talk about being intellectually dishonest...holy cow!

Auditor, do you begin to see why people don't take you seriously and think of you as more of a troll than anything?

Ken,

Just a bit too convenient. I tend to believe that Auditor55 is quoting himself.

Jim, now that would be funny!

Here's an article about the Pioneer plasmas from Insight Media (http://insightmedia.info/), which analyzes the display industry:

http://displaydaily.com/2007/07/05/pioneer-keeps-drinking-its-own-kool-aid/

I'd be interested to hear reactions from those knowledgeable about Pioneer.

The PH range has a much better black and detail retrieval than the Viera range and so does the Pioneer, but to get the Pio to match the Panasonic for absolute black you are crushing detail. This to me wouldn't be a problem and the difference is not much at all, but it is there and easy to see when they are next to each other.
I would always take a slightly crushed black that is black than a dark grey with all the detail there.


Funny, I witnessed firsthand the opposite of this. The 1150 showed definitively darker blacks than the 750U without crushing detail. BB/Magnolia had them side-by-side in a darkened room playing "Planet Earth." A cave scene showed that the Pioneer stood out with much darker blacks but you could actually see detail in cave walls. All I saw on the 750U was dark gray cave walls. No detail or reflections of water on the walls.

Here's an article about the Pioneer plasmas from Insight Media, which analyzes the display industry:

http://displaydaily.com/2007/07/05/pioneer-keeps-drinking-its-own-kool-aid/


The dude has a point. Even though the street prices are well under MSRP for the
folks who are willing to look, the general joe who goes to BB and other larger stores
will be subject to near MSRP pricing.

Pioneer should change their MSRP strategy. It seems they set high MSRPs to make
their products look like they're premium and such, but lots of stores actually follow
suit and sell the goods at MSRP prices. Yeah, it seems the actual cost to the store
is a great deal less which allows sales and such, but the consumer ends up losing
out until such a sale or "price reduction" happens. There's still a side of me that is
wondering why the hell is the MSRP of the Pioneer 60 inch 150FD $8999 Canadian,
while the MSRP of a comparable (premium) Panny PZ750 58 inch $6499. Now, for
those who don't know, Canadians pay an extra 6% tax on goods, which means 14%
for folks like me in Ontario. It's so high we can't help but think of prices after tax.
Now, before tax, there's a $2500 difference, but after tax, there's a $2850 difference!
For those wondering, after tax, the 150FD in Canada (MSRP) is approx $10,250!!!!!
That's such a slap in the face when the panny is only $7400 after tax (which is still
a good $1500 cheaper than the Pio before tax!!!). I'm sure it's no better in Europe
either! They're trying to be another Sony if you ask me.

Deep down, I wish Panasonic came out with the Kuros.

Good argument Nambit and thank God Basheer is dealing us a pretty nice savings! :)

Good argument Nambit and thank God Basheer is dealing us a pretty nice savings! :)

I wish I could get in on the deal, but I am committed to a store (Store Credit) due to a returned LCD this past February. The store is cool, though, and are doing their best to get me the best possible price. I'm in constant contact with a particular rep who is dedicated to making sure I end up satisfied.

The dude has a point. Even though the street prices are well under MSRP for the
folks who are willing to look, the general joe who goes to BB and other larger stores
will be subject to near MSRP pricing.

Pioneer should change their MSRP strategy. It seems they set high MSRPs to make
their products look like they're premium and such, but lots of stores actually follow
suit and sell the goods at MSRP prices. Yeah, it seems the actual cost to the store
is a great deal less which allows sales and such, but the consumer ends up losing
out until such a sale or "price reduction" happens. There's still a side of me that is
wondering why the hell is the MSRP of the Pioneer 60 inch 150FD $8999 Canadian,
while the MSRP of a comparable (premium) Panny PZ750 58 inch $6499. Now, for
those who don't know, Canadians pay an extra 6% tax on goods, which means 14%
for folks like me in Ontario. It's so high we can't help but think of prices after tax.
Now, before tax, there's a $2500 difference, but after tax, there's a $2850 difference!
For those wondering, after tax, the 150FD in Canada (MSRP) is approx $10,250!!!!!
That's such a slap in the face when the panny is only $7400 after tax (which is still
a good $1500 cheaper than the Pio before tax!!!). I'm sure it's no better in Europe
either! They're trying to be another Sony if you ask me.

Deep down, I wish Panasonic came out with the Kuros.I totally agree! I think Pioneer Canada has seriously made a mistake with the Kuro MSRPs. In fact I predict they will adjust the 1080p MSRPs down even before release in September. The usual 1000$ premium I expect but not 2-3K :mad:.

Think about it this way. The pure line of panels that are 1080p will mostly be sold in BB and FS here in Canada. By the September time frame the Panasonic 1080p line MSRP will probably have had a 500$ drop just like last years models. This means you'll see the following on the wall.

50" Panasonic 1080p 3499$
50" Pioneer 1080p 5999$

58" Panasonic 1080p 5499$
60" Pioneer 1080p 7999$

2500$ is a HUGE MSRP premium and one that I think is only reserved for low volume niche products that BB and FS would never sell. Clear evidence of this is how Future Shop totally bungled the 6070 deal with Pioneer Canada. They had exclusive rights to the sale of the 6070 at an initial MSRP of 8999$. Most stores did not even display the model as they had no hope of selling it. So what happened, they had to do "three" 1000$ MSRP drops in order to sell with any volume whatsoever. Same goes for the 65" Panny. The same FS I go to has complained to me multiple times that they can't sell them, especially when Panasonic, Samsung are several thousand less and look nearly as good.

Anyway, one can only hope.......

Its my reason for keeping hope alive, can a man dream! :D

Sure, kill yourself dreaming.......in the meantime why don't you spring for a new Pio plasma and have some fun? When the first SED's come out you can have something to compare it to. Who knows maybe we'll all agree with what you see and you'll be our new best hero.
It's only a TV.

I thought the Pioneer G8s were going to be:

"SED Killing (http://gear.ign.com/articles/753/753836p1.html)" PDPs? :confused:

I thought the Pioneer G8s were going to be:

"SED Killing (http://gear.ign.com/articles/753/753836p1.html)" PDPs? :confused:

What do you mean "were"??? They "are" SED KILLERS! Tell me where I can go buy an SED and I'll change my post. In fact, tell me where one is even being built, and I'll change my post. BTW, The SED KILLER that is being mentioned in that article has NOT been released yet.

Seems to me that SED killed itself. On a more personal note, I view the new Pio's as a Tube-killer for guys like me who like certain advantages of tube HDTV's.

I got a chance to see the 8G plasma's today and first let me say, as it relates to SED.

PUL-LEEEEEEEZE

The 8G need to go down in AVS forum history as the most over hyped TV in history.

I can't believe it, its laughable. The 8G barely distinguish itself from the Samsungs, which have equally deep blacks.

The Pio 8G and Samsung does have good blacks, no question about it. But neither plasma have inky blacks. I also can confirm that the 8G's don't have the shadow detail like the Panny's.

The 8G does present a softer picture than Samsungs, the Samsungs are sharper.

The new Panny's have the best shadow detail of any Plasma I have seen to date.

Also, the Pio 8G whites are not bright, compared to a Sharp LCD, where the whites are true whites. But most plasmas whites are not white as LCD.

Whereas these new plasma have made improvements, none of them are revolutionary or earth shaking.

Also, don't think that the Elites are going to be noticeable blacker than the non-Elites. Do you really think you're going notice the difference between 16,000-1 v. 20,000-1? I highly doubt it.

To even think this new Pio comes close to SED technology is just beyond me. The Pio 8g's are no SED killers, absolutely not.

Having said that, if I was in the market for a new Plasma, I would purchase a 5080. I think its a nice plasma, I prefer it over the Samsung because I don't like an overly sharp picture, I prefer a more filmlike picture. I think the Pio 8G is a good tv to own while waiting for SED.

SED technology will give you black hole blacks, while at the same giving you clorox bleach whites all in the same picture. The Pio 8G and other plasmas still give you cream colored whites and not snow whites.

The Pio 8g's are no SED killers, absolutely not.

How do you kill something that doesn't exist? ;)

What do you mean "were"??? They "are" SED KILLERS! Tell me where I can go buy an SED and I'll change my post. In fact, tell me where one is even being built, and I'll change my post. BTW, The SED KILLER that is being mentioned in that article has NOT been released yet.

Sir, Pio had nothing to do with the SED delays, not unless they were a part of the Nano technology litigation.

I don't think Canon has anything to worry about from Pioneer, its laughable. Canon problems doesn't stem from SED technology being surpassed by anything, but from other non-display technology issues.

Its funny how Pioneer annouced their SED killer once they found out that Canon and Toshiba wasn't going to show up at the CES.

On paper, SED is superior to Pio 8G in every area of display technology, including blacks and whites.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for PDP to be superior to SED and Pioneer knows it. They perceive SED as being dead, so they come out with all their hype, but no side by side comparisons with SED.

How do you kill something that doesn't exist? ;)

Good question. So why is Pioneer saying that they killed SED?

Seems to me that SED killed itself. On a more personal note, I view the new Pio's as a Tube-killer for guys like me who like certain advantages of tube HDTV's.

The tube has been dead.

On paper, SED is superior to Pio 8G in every area of display technology, including blacks and whites.

On paper, huh? That does us a whole lot of good. :p

Here's more member testimony in support of my observations of the 8G:


From poster RonDTV:

You know I was at BB and they had the PIO 5080 and the Sam LNT 5265 next to each other with the same feed and to me it seemed that the Samsungs picture was sharper and more clear.
I watched for about a half hour or so and the thing that stuck out to me was at one point they had some nature program( HD ) that showed some monkeys in the mountains from an airal view. In the Samsung I could clearly make out each monkey and differentiate it from the mountain. The Pioneer was blurrier and I coundn't make out the monkeys ( they statred to get lost in the mountains ) as easily.
First off I am a Newbie to this and it being my first HDTV. So my observation are not of the expert caliber.
That being said I aslo didn't notice the big Black color differance between the two.

Its not easy.
I have heard many say here go see them in person and make the decision on what you personally like. But am I so novice that what I am seeing is faulty.

------------------------
From poster Yeto


I have always been a fan of Pioneer plasma TVs, and up until just a few weeks ago, I thought they were the TVs that all other TVs should be judged by "but" just yesterday I spent an hour looking at both the 65/66 series Samsungs compared to the 42" Pioneer and even though I want the Pioneer to win I am starting to think the Samsungs look better. I even now believe that once I get the Samsung home and tweak the settings it will be no contest.

The source I was using to compare the two TVs was 1080i satellite broadcast TV. I am thinking that the Pioneer would rate closer to the Samsung if the source was film based and I hope to compare the two with a DVD player in the next few days.

Good luck with your decision and I don't think you can go wrong with either choice (they both look good and the Pioneer has a better price) but in my case I think I would regret not buying the Samsung even though I am a huge Pioneer fan.

There is a new king of the hill (Samsung 65/66 series).

Hope this helps,

Funny, I witnessed firsthand the opposite of this. The 1150 showed definitively darker blacks than the 750U without crushing detail. BB/Magnolia had them side-by-side in a darkened room playing "Planet Earth." A cave scene showed that the Pioneer stood out with much darker blacks but you could actually see detail in cave walls. All I saw on the 750U was dark gray cave walls. No detail or reflections of water on the walls.

And that's what happens when you see a properly (or nearly so) adjusted 8th gen Pioneer! ;)

I thought the Pioneer G8s were going to be:

"SED Killing (http://gear.ign.com/articles/753/753836p1.html)" PDPs? :confused:

Did you read the article you posted? They said they walked away 'just as impressed" as they did a year ago when they saw SED demos. So yes indeed, they are SED killers because there is no longer any reason for SEDs to exist. Although, upon further reflection, SEDs don't exist! ;)

I got a chance to see the 8G plasma's today and first let me say, as it relates to SED.

PUL-LEEEEEEEZE

The 8G need to go down in AVS forum history as the most over hyped TV in history.

I can't believe it, its laughable. The 8G barely distinguish itself from the Samsungs, which have equally deep blacks.

The Pio 8G and Samsung does have good blacks, no question about it. But neither plasma have inky blacks. I also can confirm that the 8G's don't have the shadow detail like the Panny's.

The 8G does present a softer picture than Samsungs, the Samsungs are sharper.

The new Panny's have the best shadow detail of any Plasma I have seen to date.

Also, the Pio 8G whites are not bright, compared to a Sharp LCD, where the whites are true whites. But most plasmas whites are not white as LCD.

Whereas these new plasma have made improvements, none of them are revolutionary or earth shaking.

Also, don't think that the Elites are going to be noticeable blacker than the non-Elites. Do you really think you're going notice the difference between 16,000-1 v. 20,000-1? I highly doubt it.

To even think this new Pio comes close to SED technology is just beyond me. The Pio 8g's are no SED killers, absolutely not.

Having said that, if I was in the market for a new Plasma, I would purchase a 5080. I think its a nice plasma, I prefer it over the Samsung because I don't like an overly sharp picture, I prefer a more filmlike picture. I think the Pio 8G is a good tv to own while waiting for SED.


There's so many things wrong with this post... let's just disect this a little bit while my montage video is rendering on Final Cut Pro. This beautifully laid out in-depth impression written by Mr. Aud has all my pet peeves about some posts on AVS Forum slapped into ONE post. That is amazing in itself. So I'm just gonna run through this and knock em out. Auditor isn't the only one guilty of this.

1) The biggest problem here is everyone seems to think it's possible to see the absolute best picture automatically at your local stores. People believe Example A looks its best and Example B looks its best in a given in-store comparison. That is usually never the case and if you're comparing TVs that aren't performing to the best of their abilities... you're already screwed.

Ya think college coaches compare football players with two hands tied behind their backs? Ya think people judge food that's been sabotaged?

What Best Buy, Circuit City, and even like B and M stores do is usually leave the settings on torch mode to intice rookie shoppers to buying their TV because it's "oh so bright". So when people walk in the store and suddenly talk about how bright TVs are... unless your room is equally as bright as a BB or even Magnolia (where remember the 30 torched TVs also emit light), that should hold very little merit if you're intrested in an accurate TV set. Take for example Auditors LCD white comment. LCDs have cleaner whites true... if it's 1080p or very small due to lack of pixel structure. But just because they have their color temperature on HIGH and their backlight at 100 doesn't mean you'd get those whites when you calibrate the picture correctly. Those overly blue, or as Auditor and a few call "pure whites" will be that warmer 6500k color when calibrated correctly. Go to a movie... and look at the whites. There is no such thing as 'pure white'. RESEARCH that.

2) Another is this "soft"/sharpness issue. I think this is maybe one of the dumbest things to compare in any store. There's so many variables and the biggest variable to me isn't even connections or settings (which are huge). It's the source. The loops BB, CC and most stores run.. beyond like the company specific demos (i.e. Pioneer and Sony) and direct Blu-Ray or HD-DVD movies I see are unimpressive by nature. So in fact while some people may look at a TV and think it's sharper by an in-store comparison? You may be totally off. What you think is "sharp" may be a combination of black crush, light output, high color temp, and edge enhancement. The equivalent is running two HDTVs with crap feeds... and trying to compensate both by letting the TVs add their own 'enhancements' that aren't supposed to be there. The one with more enhancements usually 'wins'. That sounds fair doesn't it?

Basic lesson kiddies. When you're watching HD-DVDs or Blu-Ray at home... this is THE LAST thing you want to do. You want to keep the TV unenhanced as possible and let the source shine. So while **** feeds look kinda cool when the TV starts drawing 'sharpness' lines for you... making those Best Buy loops look "OH SO SHARP!" You're actually just screwing up already sharp material by adding extra noise and artifacts... ruining the fine detail you're getting. Not to mention rings and little lines on text. Ew!

Bottom line is unless you bring a TV home or you actually get a demo where you know the source is prestine and you have an idea of calibration (i.e. correctly setting black level, color temp, sharpness for no edge enhancement)... the comparsions will be flawed, especially with things like colors and apparent 'sharpness'. To a tremendous extent! Don't cheat yourself... if you want the best TV it'll take a little work for sure.. but it's well worth it. Sharper in store means nothing. Sharper once calibrated with a prestine feed means everything.

3) Judging black and shadow details! This is a kicker! I find it hilarious when people judge these two things in 1 - a brighten room. 2- with a source they have no recollection of. 3 - when sets aren't calibrated. That's ridiculous. I've found alot of TVs have great shadow detail when calibrated correctly... and alot of those same great TVs that don't when they have a bad source and a bad calibration. I can tell Auditor didn't get one in the dark nor did he even test it correctly. Even in my 'glowing' impressions of the 5080, not once did I talk about shadow detail beyond "I didn't see any noticeable bad crush." That's because until you get it home... and calibrate, and watch a movie in the dark that you're familiar with... it's STUPID to make any true judgement.

Do me a favor. Crank your TVs brightness down until you see no details. Or put it on Dynamic... apparently you guys have bad shadow detail. I mean look! There's no detail!

... We all know that's not true. Some sets crush regardless of setting. Hi-End Tvs usually do not do this.

4) Hype and anti-hype! Yes fanboy struggle! Look people, assuming these Pioneer TVs are super natural is just crazy. Come on folks. These TVs are awesome, but some people in here think they transcend the basic rules of visual science. Black levels rise as light is introduced so the differences can't be all noticeable to other plasmas and LCDs in a lit up setting (exactly how this thread started). Get it in the dark and you'll see for yourself how dynamic the difference is. The video processing and display no matter how good can't make up for a bad source unless you play 'compensate' which I talked about earlier. Also as we're speaking about accuracy, as amazing these Pio TVs are the TV won't calibrate themselves. Calibration is a good thing. Out of the box untouched is not! And in terms of brightness? It's still a plasma so it won't be as bright as an LCD that has its backlight ready to burn your eye like a laser beam... but as an LCD owner I can tell you I never have my backlight on full blast. It just screws up your picture and causes extreme discomfort. So while it might wow you in the store... but it'll kill ya when ya get home. That is unless you watch with all the lights on bright... then, I suggest you just worry about light output and get the sexiest looking TV ya can!

5) Okay! Biggest pet peeve ever! Yapping your mouth as if you know what you're talking about but don't. Elites or non-elites has nothing to do with the contrast ratio given Auditor. It's the 1080p vs. 768p which controls the contrast rating... given to us by Pioneer. Never use those contrast ratios in your arguement by the way... it just ruins credibility of any impression. It also ruins your credibility when you can't tell the difference between OLED and SED... which is pretty strange since you hold such a high flag for the later... RESEARCH. RESEARCH. RESEARCH.

So bascially it all comes down to this. I know it sucks. I know it's a horrible deal. But the truth and irony is one of the worst places to check out a TV is at your local stores. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a TV with perfect blacks, perfect 6500k color temp, and right on color points and people will still be very underwhelmed in a store comparison. I can put SED in Magnolia and you'd still get these same impressions because of the lighting situation as well as the source... unless they're magically divine as Auditor claims.

So okay, yes, compare in store, but take it with a grain of salt. Take note of all the factors that can sway you and be real open minded. Ask yourself... are all these AVS junkies totally nuts? Is every single glowing review of a TV just bias fanboyism? Are all those magazines that the pros write irrelevant?

I hear people say on these boards "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". I agree totally! I know it's 'your opinion' and that's the most important. But I'm not attacking people's impressions on TVs. They are seeing what they are seeing I'm sure. BUT what I AM attacking are the circumstances which those Tvs are being seen and compared when it really isn't fair to the consumer. It's like picking out a car with a bag on your head. It's not fair. It's not cool. And your opinions will defintely be skewed. So while impressions are great... they are by no means concrete.

I see people do this all the time. Whether it's to compare LCDs to plasmas and vice versa... they're just not giving the TVs a fair chance. So if you really feel like you know what you're doing just be ready to blink twice when you see a TV you shrugged off at another person's house and it looks alot better than yours. It's happened to me already.

It's a stark truth. Your impressions could be WAY off. Like Auditor's above... :) Honestly.. if he was truly blown away by the Pioneer Plasmas you'd think he'd come back on the forum and announce it? Please... spare us your SED JUICE drenched commentary. ugh, this post is way too long... but it felt good writing it

I got a chance to see the 8G plasma's today and first let me say, as it relates to SED.

PUL-LEEEEEEEZE



And Auditor, since YOU have never seen SED and those that have DID say the Pioneers were the equal of SED, where do you come off saying what you do? You are so ungrounded, so devoid of reality, that it's breath taking. I guess that's what happens when you've got all that money tied up in a technology that no longer has any reason for existence. :rolleyes:

You don't even have a clue on how to evaluate a display nor do you know the difference between SED and OLED. You're quite the display 'authority'. When you understand how to compare two different technologies like LCD and plasma in different lighting environments, give us a call. Once you do you'll see how utterly absurd your comments were. You'll be quite embarrassed. :rolleyes:

How do you kill something that doesn't exist? ;)

More importantly, how do you compare two things when you haven't seen one of them? The guy is simply amazing and has been for a long time.

More importantly, how do you compare two things when you haven't seen one of them?

Easy. On paper. ;)

Having said that, if I was in the market for a new Plasma, I would purchase a 5080. I think its a nice plasma, I prefer it over the Samsung because I don't like an overly sharp picture, I prefer a more filmlike picture. I think the Pio 8G is a good tv to own while waiting for SED.

SED technology will give you black hole blacks, while at the same giving you clorox bleach whites all in the same picture. The Pio 8G and other plasmas still give you cream colored whites and not snow whites.

I have seen the 55" SED and I think that you wouldn't like the picture. SED is absolutely brutal and authentic to the source. There's no artificial softness or sharpness in the picture, but the picture is really really sharp even during motion. If these things ever come out, you need to stop boycotting high bitrate blurays or find a source for uncompressed movies.

8G vs SED debate is laughable. You can buy 8G now. Performance wise 8G is no where near the SED. End of debate. The Samsung plasmas are "nice", but you really shouldn't be looking for a plasma this year if PQ is your thing.

Johnny, superb post! I simply don't have the patience to elaborate as you did, thank you! What absolutely hysterical about Auditor is how he continues to totally ignore my comments about all those that have seen SED and the 8g Pioneer. I have yet to see ONE article or post that said, "yes we have seen both and SED is indeed superior to the 8g Pioneer". Instead, the reality is that every single article, every single PM I've received from people that have seen both (I got one as recently as yesterday), all, repeat ALL, have said that the Pioneer is absolutely the equal of SED. Are there some that might disagree? Perhaps, but if SED was so superior we would have nobody that claimed the 8g Pioneers were as good, let alone better.

That is why the Pioneer is indeed the SED killer and Auditor knows it. That's precisely the reason he ignores that comment every time I make, but yet he'll respond to my other comments.

Folks, it's heartbreaking when you lose a ton of money as Auditor apparently has, but I believe it will teach him the value of diversification.

I got a chance to see the 8G plasma's today and first let me say, as it relates to SED.

PUL-LEEEEEEEZE




So you liked the SED that you were looking at better than the Actually Pioneer Kuro that you were looking at. Where exactly did you see the SED!.

You must be more heavily SEDated than I was aware of. When did Dr. Canon first put you on Delusionol!. :D


...

Easy. On paper. ;)

Ah yes, 'on paper'. Man, can you imagine the phenomenal displays you could engineer 'on paper'? Perhaps we can turn out the finest displays ever made for $1...on paper! :D

How do you kill something that doesn't exist? ;)


Do you mean; like Auditor55's sanity?. :D


...

Ah yes, 'on paper'. Man, can you imagine the phenomenal displays you could engineer 'on paper'? Perhaps we can turn out the finest displays ever made for $1...on paper! :D

Displays!?!? Screw that! I just jotted something down on a cocktail napkin that'll pump a picture right into your brain, Matrix-style. :D

Johnny, superb post! I simply don't have the patience to elaborate as you did, thank you! What absolutely hysterical about Auditor is how he continues to totally ignore my comments about all those that have seen SED and the 8g Pioneer. I have yet to see ONE article or post that said, "yes we have seen both and SED is indeed superior to the 8g Pioneer". Instead, the reality is that every single article, every single PM I've received from people that have seen both (I got one as recently as yesterday), all, repeat ALL, have said that the Pioneer is absolutely the equal of SED. Are there some that might disagree? Perhaps, but if SED was so superior we would have nobody that claimed the 8g Pioneers were as good, let alone better.

That is why the Pioneer is indeed the SED killer and Auditor knows it. That's precisely the reason he ignores that comment every time I make, but yet he'll respond to my other comments.

Folks, it's heartbreaking when you lose a ton of money as Auditor apparently has, but I believe it will teach him the value of diversification.

Well post above you will beg to differ. :) Hehe... oi. There is no debate 8g vs. SED because SED does not exist! How do you compare TVs that don't EXIST? Even if Cidade saw the TV... it was probably under a controlled demo. The same people who criticized Pioneer ravists for bein all excited over a controlled demo should have ears.

And yea, it was a long and probably cluttered post. I was doing two things at once so i apologize if it's not as readable as it could be. You echo the intellgent already informed buyers Ken. You don't need to read it. :) That post is the result of all my frustrations with some ridiculous posts.. and the fact that I'm the worst procrastinator in he history of procrastination. Work.. talk about kick ass displays... fix my damn computer? talk about kick ass displays...

Ugh... tough choice. ;)

I have seen the 55" SED and I think that you wouldn't like the picture. SED is absolutely brutal and authentic to the source. There's no artificial softness or sharpness in the picture, but the picture is really really sharp even during motion. If these things ever come out, you need to stop boycotting high bitrate blurays or find a source for uncompressed movies.

8G vs SED debate is laughable. You can buy 8G now. Performance wise 8G is no where near the SED. End of debate. The Samsung plasmas are "nice", but you really shouldn't be looking for a plasma this year if PQ is your thing.

Interesting 'first post'...very interesting. Key comments "performance wise 8g is no where near the SED..end of debate"..."you really shouldn't be looking for plasma this year if PQ is your thing". The only person I've ever seen making 'claims' like these are our old friend Sampo.

So, this person (whoever he/she is...Sampo, this time trying "Japan") lacks credibility. I will repeat, every article I have seen from AV editors that have seen both technologies, have said the 8g Pioneers are at least the equal if not better than SED. "End of debate". :rolleyes:

The tube has been dead.

True, but many folks like myself were attracted to the SED as it promised to be like a flat-panel version of the tube. I know you're putting down the 8G's, and that's your prerogative, but having seen so many 5080's in so many different environments, I can safely say my tube replacement has finally been fond. I beg to differ with a lot of the posts that 'support' your views, especially when I have seen subtle to tremendous improvements in the 5080 (the lowest end model too!) than even the higher end competitor TV's. Put it this way, I haven't been truly impressed with plasma TV's until now, and that's a major compliment. The cheapest, lowest end 5080 is still very flexible that it can go from one extreme to the other. You can change the settings to crush the blacks if that's your delight, or you can have the same exact blacks with incredible picture detail; You can go from a very soft picture, which some of us like (CRT HDTVs were like that) to an almost LCD-like sharp pic if that's your fancy; You can go from a duller, more theatrical image, to insanely vibrant, almost lifelike, colours and brightness... all this on the lowest model 720P TV. I've compared this thing side by side with so many TVs, it's sick. I've owned (and still own) a few LCD's, and they can't hold a candle to the PQ I've seen in the lowly 5080. My 52 inch Sharp d92 1080P TV was sweet, but I found the 720P 5080 provides a much better picture. It's certainly more flexible. Whenever I made adjustments on my d92, I had to trade stuff off. I am not finding this the case with the 5080. What's more, there's the 5010 coming soon that is 1080P which, technically, is a more fair comparison. I still find it hugely amusing how people are comparing this thing to 1080P sets, and yet I find the same sets they compare it to aren't as impressive. It astounds me how accurate the stuff looks. Incidentally, there are times when you probably shouldn't see hardly any differences between TV's as there's content that seems to look the same on just about any TV. Stuff like cartoons/anims.

The thing that I gotta express more is the SED demo that we've seen are with specifically tailored content that shows the TV in its most optimum situation. Well, sharp has a wicked Aquos demo that makes those TV's look truly amazing. It's a special feed in numerous BB shops that I'm sure many AVS members have seen. Meanwhile, the 5080 has no such special feed, yet it still shines with regular content. Your impression of SED is likely based on the optimal content that was previewed at shows, yet you compare that to a TV that's sitting on a split feed in the corner of a store (and from what I've seen from the SED demos, this TV in the corner of the store... a lowly 720P set that's not even an elite... holds its own... not bad).

But yeah, tube is dead. Then again, SED isn't looking healthy right now either. Folks are more interested in LED local dimming and OLED now. SED is loosely based on Tube technology, so I wouldn't be so quick to just say "tube is dead" either. If that's so, why invest in an extension of dead technology? You'd figure that if SED was really awesome, Sony would consider investing in it. I'm going to stop there though as I really don't want to get into the SED vs. Everything else stuff...

Well i got to see the 8g today. On the wall at worst buy. Negatives first, lack of pop.. Also colors lack pop as well, when there was a all blue screen the pio was the worst on the wall. It was next to a samsung plasma but there was a panny nearby as others i was looking at to. I played with the remote best i could but the other plasmas looked like lcd's compared to the pio....

Pro's. Noise, least of the bunch as far as i could see. Maybe the lack of pop hides the noise better but i thought it had the least noise.

Black levels and shadow detail, blacks were the best AND the shadow detail. It had excellent shadow detail imo.

That about sums it up for me, the pio lacks pop compared to the others, but overall it has the most film like picture, least noise, best shadow detail i've seen.

Nice post Nambit, but let me remind you that Auditor has never seen SED. Did I really say that with all of Auditor's posts? Yes, I did, he has never ever seen SED in person. Funny stuff isn't it? ;)

Zues, trust us, you can get plenty of pop out of these 8g Pioneers if you want that. It's all in the settings. I think Nambit's post pretty much sums that up.

Interesting 'first post'...very interesting. Key comments "performance wise 8g is no where near the SED..end of debate"..."you really shouldn't be looking for plasma this year if PQ is your thing". The only person I've ever seen making 'claims' like these are our old friend Sampo.

So, this person (whoever he/she is...Sampo, this time trying "Japan") lacks credibility. I will repeat, every article I have seen from AV editors that have seen both technologies, have said the 8g Pioneers are at least the equal if not better than SED. "End of debate". :rolleyes:

I have talked with numerous respected AV editors and none of them have said those things. Have you seen the SED? And who is this Sampo guy?

There was a clear reference to an article (with a link) earlier that said exactly what I have read time and time again. SED does not beat the 8g Pioneers. So I don't know who you spoke with, but I do know what I've read time and time again. I've also gotten many PMs over the last year or so that says the same thing.

Oh, and I never claimed to see the SED.

I have talked with numerous respected AV editors and none of them have said those things. Have you seen the SED? And who is this Sampo guy?

Which editors, and can you provide links to their articles about both Pioneer Kuro and SED?. I imagine that those "numerous respected editors" must have earned such respect through their publications, and you will have no problem linking us to their reviews.

..

Oh, and I never claimed to see the SED.

Then why are you even comparing 8G and SED?

Which editors, and can you provide links to their articles about both Pioneer Kuro and SED?. I imagine that those "numerous respected editors" must have earned such respect through their publications, and you will have no problem linking us to their reviews.

I can't you give link to conversations. Most reviews aren't public domain, you have to buy a magazine. I don't have time or interest to list them to some av newbie.

Then why are you even comparing 8G and SED?



I can't you give link to conversations. I don't even record them. Most reviews aren't public domain, you have to buy a magazine.

Thanks Sampo. Why Angola!. :D

....

Then why are you even comparing 8G and SED?



I can't you give link to conversations. Most reviews aren't public domain, you have to buy a magazine. I don't have time or interest to list them to some av newbie.

My my my. You edited your post after I quoted your original. Since you are so short of time, then why are you wasting it on here with such vague claims. Can you even tell us the names of all those very unrespected AV editors you have talked to. Since when did the word: "newbie' get tossed around in Japan or Angola, Sampo?. :D

....

Zues, trust us, you can get plenty of pop out of these 8g Pioneers if you want that. It's all in the settings. I think Nambit's post pretty much sums that up.

But Zues' impressions bring up a point about Pioneer's plasmas that I recall reading
in the first review as well. Basically it seems you *REALLY* need to know what you
are doing to get the best picture. Unlike other TV's, where adjustments are more
coarse and independent, Pio's adjustment variables seem dependent on each other
and on which mode and such you are in (kinda like a service menu). For the videophile,
this is great, but for the average joe this can be downright frustrating. I remember
my first lesson in contrast/brightness balance (as one goes up/down, you gotta
consider the other) and it can be a real headache. Heck, on my LCD, it seems the
contrast has an effect on the sharpness even. Who'd have thought that one?!?!
When you consider there are threads dedicated to adjustments/settings of a particular
brand of Television, you gotta think "Damn, I love the flexibility/freedom but things
are waay too complicated". In an era where folks have different settings depending
on content, this can be downright frustrating.

Well i'm pretty confident that you cant get the 8g to have pop like the other plasmas. I cranked the brightness, sharpness, gamma, detail enhancer, most of these seemed to have little effect. When i change gamma on my sony lcd or any other function it seems to make a noticable difference compared to the seemingly very subtle changes on the pioneer. But this is also in a bright store.. I always felt the fhd1 was like this also, not alot of pop, but dark scenes are the most pristine, no white crush, that the other plasmas have.

Pioneer= very smoooooth picture, refined, but just not alot of wow factor.

Well i'm pretty confident that you cant get the 8g to have pop like the other plasmas. I cranked the brightness, sharpness, gamma, detail enhancer, most of these seemed to have little effect. When i change gamma on my sony lcd or any other function it seems to make a noticable difference compared to the seemingly very subtle changes on the pioneer. But this is also in a bright store.. I always felt the fhd1 was like this also, not alot of pop, but dark scenes are the most pristine, no white crush, that the other plasmas have.

Pioneer= very smoooooth picture, refined, but just not alot of wow factor.

To me, calling the PQ smooth with not much pop is a bit of a knock. Have you seen the SXRD RPTVs? Is the Pioneer at least sharper than those?

To me, calling the PQ smooth with not much pop is a bit of a knock. Have you seen the SXRD RPTVs? Is the Pioneer at least sharper than those?

I viewed his comments as a compliment. If you want POP, buy an LCD. I want a realistic display.

I viewed his comments as a compliment. If you want POP, buy an LCD. I want a realistic display.

Been there done that, no thanx! I'm allergic to motion blur.

To me, calling the PQ smooth with not much pop is a bit of a knock. Have you seen the SXRD RPTVs? Is the Pioneer at least sharper than those?


I dont really think it's a sharpness issue, it's as if the pio looks like it is a aged 10yr old plasma that has lost brightness. I almost do feel my 55 lcd is brighter than the pio. The vizio 50 smokes my lcd as far as brightness,and pop. I was going to upgrade to the sxrd a time back, but felt my lcd had better resolution, sharpness, colors were not oversaturated like sxrd's. So i went cheapo plasma and it trounced the sxrd.

Pioneer has said that they have re-engineered the new Plasmas, starting from scratch, and almost changing every aspect of how the image is shown. Could it be possible, with all those major changes, that the old rules and standards for how to tweak a set do not really work on such a changed product. In other words, settings that worked on previous generations may not be completely suitable for the new Kuro line. Just a thought. Considering just one aspect, about how they now produce such deep blacks, compared to even last year's models, might they not require an entire new set of owner tweaking procedures to be developed. Just wondering. Anyone have any thoughts on that notion?.

..

Then why are you even comparing 8G and SED?



Because Auditor insists on it! I've seen the 8g Pioneers numerous times and they live up to the hype I've read about from people that first saw them at shows. Many of those same people that started this hype had also seen SED and they stated that the Pioneers were every bit the equal of SED. So I've already seen the first half of their statements confirmed with the 8g Pioneers and I have no reason to doubt the veracity of the 2nd part.

So Sampo, that's it in a nutshell. It seems like you're trying a different approach this time, but it's still sounds like the same ol' Sampo. :rolleyes:

Pioneer has said that they have re-engineered the new Plasmas, starting from scratch, and almost changing every aspect of how the image is shown. Could it be possible, with all those major changes, that the old rules and standards for how to tweak a set do not really work on such a changed product. In other words, settings that worked on previous generations may not be completely suitable for the new Kuro line. Just a thought. Considering just one aspect, about how they now produce such deep blacks, compared to even last year's models, might they not require an entire new set of owner tweaking procedures to be developed. Just wondering. Anyone have any thoughts on that notion?.

..

I don't think that's it at all.

I don't think that's it at all.

What leads you to rule it out?. It is an entirely different glass structure,and processing approach. Why could it not require a different tuning approach. If it is so different from the previous pioneers, why isn't it possible that the old way of tuning them, will not fully work on the Kuro sets!.

..

What leads you to rule it out?. It is an entirely different glass structure,and processing approach. Why could it not require a different tuning approach. If it is so different from the previous pioneers, why isn't it possible that the old way of tuning them, will not fully work on the Kuro sets!.

.. My fear in purchasing one is with all the 'innovations' introduced in the 8g's perhaps it also introduced other issues.

Well i'm pretty confident that you cant get the 8g to have pop like the other plasmas. I cranked the brightness, sharpness, gamma, detail enhancer, most of these seemed to have little effect.

Wha?? I can't say too much on LCD's, but the 5080 has a whole lot more POP than
the crapload of plasmas I've seen. In fact, there were times it was unnatural. I
will mention some of the plasmas I've directly compared the 5080 & 4280 to:
Panasonic PX75, PX77, PZ700, Samsung 5054, 5064, 6374, LG/HP/Hitachi (sorry,
forgot the models, but plenty of them too). All of these TV's didn't have the pop
of the Pios. I've been to so many stores too, not just one or two and have had the
luxury of seeing all kinds of content. I've even compared it to the Sammy 5265 LCD
(whites were a bit brighter on sammy, but colours varied from dead even at times
to slightly brighter - but drowned out - on the sammy).

By the way, brightness, sharpness, gamma, and such have varying effects depending
on what mode you set the TV too. There's also the automatic dimmer feature on the
Pio that you have to consider. If it's not turned off... good luck changing settings. I
have this issue with my Sharp LCD where the OPC (by default is on) will auto-dim
the LCD and changing all my settings (brightness, contrast, colour saturation) does
nothing for it. When I come out of that mode, things are wildly different. I've taken
a quick peek at some of the functions on the Pio, and you really gotta know what
you're doing. Heck, this applies to any TV, which makes me wonder about some
comments against other brands out there.

I'm just mentioning all this because, even beyond the Pio's, I find people are too
quick to dismiss TV's based on an experience or two in a store. I've been going
from store to store and checking out all the TV's. My original impression of the
new Panasonics were terrible, but I eventually saw a properly calibrated one and
now I can see how some folks love their Pannys. Heck, the sharp d62 LCD looks
like crap in a whole lot of stores, but I've seen a few set up that look almost as
good as their flagship d92. Because of all this, I've questioned some of the dramatic
PQ differences between the Pio and other TVs and keep re-verifying it's for real.
There were a couple of stores that had exceptions, but I could tell those were just
settings issues.

Anyhow, I still feel LCD's are definitely brighter, but at a cost of colour reproduction.
I can't get how transparent things can look, especially in low-lit conditions. This,
however, seems to be a side-effect of backlighting instead of source-lighting. I
do realize, however, that everyone has their tastes, hence the LCD fans and the
Plasma fans (oh, and our brothers/sisters in the Rear projection department :)).
However, when it comes specifically to plasmas, the 5080/4280 alone seems to
have that extra pop. I could be wrong with all my viewing (seriously, it's sickening
how many places I've been), but I don't think I am.

<<Edit - fixed a typing error on the Samsung model>>

Nambit the best advice, is go with your true feelings. About anything in life. If you truely feel you're making the best choice in whatever and go by what you know, you wont have nobody to blame but yourself, which is how it should be. Never go by anybodys word for anything.. Same with tweaking a tv, if you dial in to what you like, you cant be wrong can you?

Now that said peoples judgement can get clouded with things like this, they hear so much hype, if you dont have the real experience you tend to go by what other people say. Read ken ross's first impressions, not to enthused, then suddenly what a difference a day made :D For me after adjusting the 8g im still scratching my head, i dont think it has the pop of other plasmas, actually no other plasma, but still think it could be a heck of a performer in your house. I think the 7g might of even had more pop.. Whatever you choose though get it in your house, spend all the time you need adjusting it, and go with your true feelings :) In store impressions could be like a holy grail thing, might not look the best in the store, but at home it rules.

Zues referred to the Gamma setting as one of the adjustments he was making to get more Pop in the picture. My understanding of the Gamma adjustment was that it was used to adjust the ratio of amount of Red versus Green versus Blue in the picture. I am not an expert but from my understanding of the Gamma control, I wouldn't expect changes in the Gamma setting to do anything to add Pop to the picture. I would think it would really only relate to color accuracuy. Can someone who knows explain what differences you would expect to see between the 1, 2 and 3 Gamma settings on the 8G sets? I guess maybe this really belongs in the settings thread so if anyone prefers they can reply there.

So, Nambit, is it say to safe that Pioneer offers a superior picture but that it requires tweaking and user knowledge?

Nambit...this is the little devil on your shoulder talking...you're on the right track, you just need to bump up to the 1080p 60"er....:D

So, Nambit, is it say to safe that Pioneer offers a superior picture but that it requires tweaking and user knowledge?

Not necessarily, but to get the best picture it does (like most TV's). Most of the sets
that I saw were running with factory settings, and they still were awesome. The
difference here is that the controls on these things appear to be a bit overwhelming,
yet, require a bit of understanding. I think I'll pay someone a few bucks to professionally
set up my TV (If I can afford it).

Well, I still haven't seen the 5080. I went to BestBuy and they have it but it wasn't on. The Magnolia guy said it wasn't set up yet. I asked 2 of salesmen their impressions. One was wowed at a special demo for the 8G a few months ago. The other saw the 5080 and really wasn't impressed noting the black levels weren't all that great though he liked the fact that Pioneer has added more features to fight IR.
I'll see if they have it set up tomorrow.

Well, I still haven't seen the 5080. I went to BestBuy and they have it but it wasn't on.

You gotta be kidding!! You know a set is available everywhere when even the Canadian website has it showing. You should have seen it by now.

I have seen the 55" SED and I think that you wouldn't like the picture. SED is absolutely brutal and authentic to the source. There's no artificial softness or sharpness in the picture, but the picture is really really sharp even during motion. If these things ever come out, you need to stop boycotting high bitrate blurays or find a source for uncompressed movies.

8G vs SED debate is laughable. You can buy 8G now. Performance wise 8G is no where near the SED. End of debate. The Samsung plasmas are "nice", but you really shouldn't be looking for a plasma this year if PQ is your thing.

I boycott Blu-Ray and HD-DVD not because I don't like the formats. I just want one format. I'm so frustrated that we have a high-def opitical disc format war. I'm going to hold off until one prevails.

I like where HD-DVD is going, the players are already at mass market prices. Blu-Ray needs to come down in price.

These people think I'm against the 8g, I'm not. Its a top level plasma that's very affordable. But its not earthshaking technology like I believe SED is. SED superiority goes beyond PQ.

Now I have a Panny Plasma and I'm happy with it. I think I can wait for a single hi-def opitical disc format to prevail while wait for SED or OLED. I don't want to keep upgrading TV sets every year for marginal improvements.

I would rather sit back and wait, by pass the incremental improvements in display techonology, until a technology takes a giant leap forward and then invest in that.

I dont really think it's a sharpness issue, it's as if the pio looks like it is a aged 10yr old plasma that has lost brightness. I almost do feel my 55 lcd is brighter than the pio. The vizio 50 smokes my lcd as far as brightness,and pop. I was going to upgrade to the sxrd a time back, but felt my lcd had better resolution, sharpness, colors were not oversaturated like sxrd's. So i went cheapo plasma and it trounced the sxrd.

That's funny, because the Vizio is does beat the SXRD. Before the 8G the SXRD was the most overhyped display in AVS forum history. I remember all the lies about the SXRD having blacks that equalled CRT, what a joke.

.......... For me after adjusting the 8g im still scratching my head, i dont think it has the pop of other plasmas, actually no other plasma, but still think it could be a heck of a performer in your house. ...........

I think there was probably some additional tweaking opportunities you may have missed when auditioning the 5080 in store. Historically, the broad consensus (there are always exceptions to this opinion, of course) has been that the Pioneers have had abundant color pop as compared to many or most plasmas. I've even heard people describe the Pioneer plasmas as the most lcd-like among plasmas, i.e., vibrant, super rich, colorful, if not always the most accurate, natural coloration.

Some have viewed this Pioneer color palette negatively, feeling that it approaches garishness, and preferring (what they perceive to be) the more subtle and realistic colors of the Panasonic plasmas, which has been the plasma brand that Pioneer has been compared to the most. Now, when owners get their Panasonics home, they tend to rave about the richness and vibrancy of the colors. I'm sure that's part improved calibration and source material, but I suspect it's also the fact that they are no longer being compared to other plasmas, particularly the Pioneers, and they are able to shine on their own. Bottom line: your opinion just doesn't seem to mesh with the longtime general consensus on this matter.

There is always the possibility that the latest generation of all the various plasma brands have caught up and/or surpassed the latest Pioneer Kuro models in color richness or "pop", but based upon the collective impressions of Kuro models so far, I don't think that's the case. I'm not saying you are an idiot or anything.. it's becoming clear that these new models are a little more complicated to adjust and you might simply be another casualty, lost in the thornier thicket of adjustments newly available to the Kuro models. Whatever the case, I just think something was amiss in your first viewing session. I'll be curious to see if you still feel the same upon subsequent viewings in another or the same store.

I think there was probably some additional tweaking opportunities you may have missed when auditioning the 5080 in store. Historically, the broad consensus (there are always exceptions to this opinion, of course) has been that the Pioneers have had abundant color pop as compared to many or most plasmas. I've even heard people describe the Pioneer plasmas as the most lcd-like among plasmas, i.e., vibrant, super rich, colorful, if not always the most accurate, natural coloration.

Some have viewed this Pioneer color palette negatively, feeling that it approaches garishness, and preferring (what they perceive to be) the more subtle and realistic colors of the Panasonic plasmas, which has been the plasma brand that Pioneer has been compared to the most. Now, when owners get their Panasonics home, they tend to rave about the richness and vibrancy of the colors. I'm sure that's part improved calibration and source material, but I suspect it's also the fact that they are no longer being compared to other plasmas, particularly the Pioneers, and they are able to shine on their own. Bottom line: your opinion just doesn't seem to mesh with the longtime general consensus on this matter.

There is always the possibility that the latest generation of all the various plasma brands have caught up and/or surpassed the latest Pioneer Kuro models in color richness or "pop", but based upon the collective impressions of Kuro models so far, I don't think that's the case. I'm not saying you are an idiot or anything.. it's becoming clear that these new models are a little more complicated to adjust and you might simply be another casualty, lost in the thornier thicket of adjustments newly available to the Kuro models. Whatever the case, I just think something was amiss in your first viewing session. I'll be curious to see if you still feel the same upon subsequent viewings in another or the same store.

It also depends what you're comparing the Pios with. TVs on dynamic torch mode probably? Crank the pio on dynamic and check it out. :)

I think the 7g might of even had more pop.

I have to think that the 5080 you were looking was feeding off a bad source or wasn't properly calibrated. The overwhelming consesus here is that the 8Gs has more pop than the 7Gs.

I've been reading everything I can about the new PIO 8g plasmas as I'm ready to finally retire my Sony CRT (HD) to the bedroom as I feel the technology finally lives up to the hype, but.......... I went to BB and viewed the 5080, among other plasmas including the Samsung, and the PQ was very soft and lacked detail. The colors had NO pop and looked very washed out so I made a trip to the local Elite dealer and viewed the new 1150 which the PQ also appeared to be "soft" but the colors appeared to be much more vibrant. I walked away very puzzled with why the PQ did not live up to the hype I've been reading in this forum.

I plan on purchasing the Elite 50" (1080P) in the fall but for that much money I'm very concerned. Don't know anything about gama adjustments or all the other internal adjustments just looking for the best PQ available. Is there a reason these sets do not impress people as set-up out of the box? Am I missing something?

John

Well i'm pretty confident that you cant get the 8g to have pop like the other plasmas. I cranked the brightness, sharpness, gamma, detail enhancer, most of these seemed to have little effect.

WOW! I can tell you I have no idea how playing with those controls could have 'little effect'. The controls you mentioned (with the possible exception of gamma where I found the results subtle) all have a dramatic effect on the picture. The controls seem to behave much like other Pioneers IMO. :confused:

The other saw the 5080 and really wasn't impressed noting the black levels weren't all that great though he liked the fact that Pioneer has added more features to fight IR.
I'll see if they have it set up tomorrow.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that the 'other guy' didn't see it in the proper conditions. Anyone that walks away from the 8g Pioneers and isn't impressed with the black levels, trust me trust me trust me, the set was either seriously misadjusted or you saw it under extremely poor conditions. We can certainly have different opinions about other picture parameters, but black levels is something everyone should agree on with these sets when viewed properly.

I have to think that the 5080 you were looking was feeding off a bad source or wasn't properly calibrated. The overwhelming consesus here is that the 8Gs has more pop than the 7Gs.

Here's another point. I was at a Magnolia yesterday and they had the 950 right next to last year's 42" Elite. The way the sets were adjusted, the pictures were strikingly similar with the exception of black levels. I would have been hard pressed to tell the difference in color quality between any of the Elites they had hooked up. However, when a scene became dark, you would have had to be blind to not see the striking difference between the two. The new Elite had both far better black levels and, at the same time, better shadow detail.

So to address a comment from Auditor who says he'd rather wait for a radical new design, I say it is totally unnecessary. Pioneer has adressed the one weakness of plasmas when it comes to picture quality, black levels. A high end, properly adjusted plasma already has generally excellent colors...no need for radical improvement or a change in technology. Same thing with brightness levels, I've never come close to maxing out the brightness on my current plasmas.

The only real weakness has been black levels. So if a manufacturer can address that weakness by a major tweaking of a current technology, why not? That's why these Pioneers are being lableled the "SED Killers". I can guarantee you this, if SED were ever to make it to the marketplace, since it would be a radical change in technology, it surely will carry with it it's own unique issues that will have to be addressed in subsequent SED generations. For that reason it makes more sense to me to tweak an already mature technology to equal or surpass a new one who's unique issues we've yet to find out. :)

I've been reading everything I can about the new PIO 8g plasmas as I'm ready to finally retire my Sony CRT (HD) to the bedroom as I feel the technology finally lives up to the hype, but.......... I went to BB and viewed the 5080, among other plasmas including the Samsung, and the PQ was very soft and lacked detail. The colors had NO pop and looked very washed out so I made a trip to the local Elite dealer and viewed the new 1150 which the PQ also appeared to be "soft" but the colors appeared to be much more vibrant. I walked away very puzzled with why the PQ did not live up to the hype I've been reading in this forum.

I plan on purchasing the Elite 50" (1080P) in the fall but for that much money I'm very concerned. Don't know anything about gama adjustments or all the other internal adjustments just looking for the best PQ available. Is there a reason these sets do not impress people as set-up out of the box? Am I missing something?

John

Adjust the sharpness, adjust the Enhancer mode from 3 to 2 or from 2 to 1, adjust the noise reduction features and you'll wind up with a very sharp picture. I honestly feel that many people that are finding the Pioneer picture too 'tame', should never ever consider an ISF calibration...they'll hate it!

WOW! I can tell you I have no idea how playing with those controls could have 'little effect'. The controls you mentioned (with the possible exception of gamma where I found the results subtle) all have a dramatic effect on the picture. The controls seem to behave much like other Pioneers IMO. :confused:

Actually gamma is the adjustment where i thought it did little. Must be implemented different than on sonys.. Detail enahancer is going to be hard to see the difference in the store only a few feet away. I spent little time on the remote, i did not want to raise the brightness to much but i did try to make it look like the other plasmas. The blacks were still the blackest, and detail in hair was looking better than anything else. My quick settings is far from what i would do if it was at home.... But still the other plasmas looked like lcd's compared to the pio...That might be a good thing. What pq aspect did you see again that you did not like when you first viewed the 8g?

I've been installing Pioneers for years now and I can say with confidence that these 8g versions are quite a step in the right direction from the past models.

I will say that the processing on the new 5080 clearly isn't as good as the previous Elite and 505-507cmx displays w/ the key digital card, I own one and minus black levels the overall "quality" of the image is still better than the new 5080. Truthfully, I wouldn't expect it from a mid level model to be honest. I am looking hard at the 5000ex as well, which should be a happy medium. But as far as black levels and the eye pleasing pop to the picture that comes with it, the new gen plasmas look very promising.
I remember after initial viewing of the 5080, my immediate thought was that I would probably take one of the new 5080's over the setup I currently have, which is only "ok" with blacks, even though the image isn't held together quite as well.

Things are looking very good for Pioneer this fall.

Perhaps the picture quality might be even better in the 8G Elite series... have you had a chance to look at the Elite's? I think people quickly dismiss the Elite as just a 2 year warranty and some extra tweaking function. I'm curious to see your thoughts in terms of processing and overall quality of the image.

Thanks!

Russ

I've been installing Pioneers for years now and I can say with confidence that these 8g versions are quite a step in the right direction from the past models.

I will say that the processing on the new 5080 clearly isn't as good as the previous Elite and 505-507cmx displays w/ the key digital card, I own one and minus black levels the overall "quality" of the image is still better than the new 5080. Truthfully, I wouldn't expect it from a mid level model to be honest. I am looking hard at the 5000ex as well, which should be a happy medium. But as far as black levels and the eye pleasing pop to the picture that comes with it, the new gen plasmas look very promising.
I remember after initial viewing of the 5080, my immediate thought was that I would probably take one of the new 5080's over the setup I currently have, which is only "ok" with blacks, even though the image isn't held together quite as well.

Things are looking very good for Pioneer this fall.

With apologies to CruelInventions,

I believe much of the comments about the Kuro models may be due to unfamiliarity with the designated adjustment headings which come with the Kuro model and how to use them.

Maybe a more tech oriented poster such as D-Nice et al could review the controls individually and make suggestions how to use them.

Or at least we could start off with the D-Nice settings, and make observations or ask questions about the PQ using the D-Nice standard as the basis.

Indeed. And thanks for quoting me. I feels special. :D

Actually gamma is the adjustment where i thought it did little. Must be implemented different than on sonys.. Detail enahancer is going to be hard to see the difference in the store only a few feet away. I spent little time on the remote, i did not want to raise the brightness to much but i did try to make it look like the other plasmas. The blacks were still the blackest, and detail in hair was looking better than anything else. My quick settings is far from what i would do if it was at home.... But still the other plasmas looked like lcd's compared to the pio...That might be a good thing. What pq aspect did you see again that you did not like when you first viewed the 8g?

My first viewing was in a PC Richard store in N.Y. and the feed was ESPN HD in a VERY VERY brightly lit store. All material I viewed was SD material on this channel with the bright lights making it very hard to appreciate the new black levels or overall PQ. My 2nd viewing in a dimly lit BB/Magnolia was far far different.

BTW, the next time you find an 8th gen Pioneer, try changing the Enhancer from 3 to 1. I saw a huge difference doing that. If the feed is not good, you'll get an increase in noise, but you should see a big difference in apparent sharpness. Then try the sharpness controls and I'd be surprised if you couldn't get a sharp picture together with the great black levels.

I've been reading everything I can about the new PIO 8g plasmas as I'm ready to finally retire my Sony CRT (HD) to the bedroom as I feel the technology finally lives up to the hype, but.......... I went to BB and viewed the 5080, among other plasmas including the Samsung, and the PQ was very soft and lacked detail. The colors had NO pop and looked very washed out so I made a trip to the local Elite dealer and viewed the new 1150 which the PQ also appeared to be "soft" but the colors appeared to be much more vibrant. I walked away very puzzled with why the PQ did not live up to the hype I've been reading in this forum.

I plan on purchasing the Elite 50" (1080P) in the fall but for that much money I'm very concerned. Don't know anything about gama adjustments or all the other internal adjustments just looking for the best PQ available. Is there a reason these sets do not impress people as set-up out of the box? Am I missing something?

John

Interesting and leads to one of my points. Given that the Pioneers did not impress you and other brands may have had a superior PQ, you still choose to go with the Pioneers. Is it hype? Hey, it's your money but it is curious given what you just wrote.
I know others will say here that the Pioneers won't set up. Well, that really isn't a good enough argument for me because neither were the other brands. They could just as easily argue the same points. I mentioned once before I didn't particularly like the PQ on Hitachis till I saw one Pro Cal'd. It looked very good. I believe the tweaks and cals will make any of the better brands look better.

HDTV Test review... http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP4280XD/

:) Awesome. Also a link in the 8g Owner's thread. Read away. These guys actually buy the equipment, test it... and sell back at a loss. AV love at its finest. Anyway, this guy (Vincent) was so impressed with his 4280 he may consider keeping it as reference.

Blackest blacks ever in any HDTV he's ever tested. 100 percent better than the latest Panasonic are some paraphrasing. Best TV he's seen at this size. Read it!

So if 8G has 16000:1 static contrast, why dynamic contrast is only 3000:1? :confused:

It's different measuring methods. Not to mention dynamic and static are different.(And once again... don't listen to manufacturers!) Just take that number into THEIR context. For instance, the highest dynamic contrast they've recorded is around he mid-low 1000s (Samsung, Sharp both LCDs). The 4280 even though it's a PLASMA which limits the white level pretty much just tripled the best TVs they've ever reviewed.

Plasmas usually have very weak dynamic contrast readings, even when they have blacker blacks. That's because all white screens are much dimmer than LCDs.

For reference, the previous Panasonic 9th gen panasonic consumer rated around 1000 as Colin measured.

I've been installing Pioneers for years now and I can say with confidence that these 8g versions are quite a step in the right direction from the past models.

I will say that the processing on the new 5080 clearly isn't as good as the previous Elite and 505-507cmx displays w/ the key digital card, I own one and minus black levels the overall "quality" of the image is still better than the new 5080. Truthfully, I wouldn't expect it from a mid level model to be honest. I am looking hard at the 5000ex as well, which should be a happy medium. But as far as black levels and the eye pleasing pop to the picture that comes with it, the new gen plasmas look very promising.
I remember after initial viewing of the 5080, my immediate thought was that I would probably take one of the new 5080's over the setup I currently have, which is only "ok" with blacks, even though the image isn't held together quite as well.

Things are looking very good for Pioneer this fall.

I've gotten a much closer look at the Elites than the non-Elites that are generally high up on a BB wall o' plasmas. To my eye the Elite's processing is certainly as good as the past elites. The last Magnolia I came from had a perfect setup for that with both the new and last year's Elites side by side. I can't say there's any improvement, but I certainly don't see the processing as having taken a step backward.

HDTV Test review... http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP4280XD/

:) Awesome. Also a link in the 8g Owner's thread. Read away. These guys actually buy the equipment, test it... and sell back at a loss. AV love at its finest. Anyway, this guy (Vincent) was so impressed with his 4280 he may consider keeping it as reference.

Blackest blacks ever in any HDTV he's ever tested. 100 percent better than the latest Panasonic are some paraphrasing. Best TV he's seen at this size. Read it!

Hey Johnny, it looks like you, I and others aren't so crazy! Here's the summary sentence from the review:" the Pioneer PDP4280XD is the best flat panel television I've tested to date." Yes he was indeed in love with it! :D

It will be interesting to see how a couple of our chronic Pioneer bashers who always say "Yeah, let's see what the reviews say" will sidestep this one. I'm sure other reviewers will have similar praise. :)

Hey Johnny, it looks like you, I and others aren't so crazy! Here's the summary sentence from the review:" the Pioneer PDP4280XD is the best flat panel television I've tested to date." Yes he was indeed in love with it! :D

It will be interesting to see how a couple of our chronic Pioneer bashers who always say "Yeah, let's see what the reviews say" will sidestep this one. I'm sure others will say the same. :)

Yea. :)

I mean seriously. For those still trying to sort out the BS. Ask yourself this. Are you going to listen to some yap who doesn't even glance at a remote watching a Best Buy feed in a bright room with other torched TVs? Making their opinions in usually 3 minutes.

Or listen to guys like Vincent (and previously Colin), who you can totally tell put all their passion and effort into reviewing each TV. They take a week and do plenty of research prior and post. Then they sell the TVs at a loss just for the sake of the AVS junkies. That's just killer. I totally admire what they do. And they're not raking in cash for these reviews either.

For more reference. Read their review on the 427XD. Not nearly as endearing as the newer gen.

I also noticed the review indicated that Color space 1 was the best. I saw this with my eye when I experimented with the different settings. Color space 2 just didn't look quite right. Even upping the saturation still didn't yield the colors I was expecting and that I got with Color space 1. Of course each mode needs to have the color intensity adjusted proportionately.

You have to love the exquisite detail they go into in these reviews! It's also interesting to see that their sample had R/G/B adjustments in the user menu. Now I'm not sure if this is the European version of the Elite or if the non-Elites are just different there.

Oh yeah, here's one for our good buddy Auditor who claimed 'what's all this hype about': "The hype surrounding Pioneer's eighth-generation plasmas' revolutionary black level is fully justified."

I also noticed the review indicated that Color space 1 was the best. I saw this with my eye when I experimented with the different settings. Color space 2 just didn't look quite right. Even upping the saturation still didn't yield the colors I was expecting and that I got with Color space 1. Of course each mode needs to have the color intensity adjusted proportionately.

You have to love the exquisite detail they go into in these reviews! It's also interesting to see that their sample had R/G/B adjustments in the user menu. Now I'm not sure if this is the European version of the Elite or if the non-Elites are just different there.

Yea that too. Even though apparently Color Space 2 almost has perfect color points. I saw the green measurement and was like "NO WAY". 100 percent accurate greens on a flat panel!??

Eh, too good to be true. ;) I don't know why manufacturers can't give us those specified RGB points in a setting. I guess PURE comes very close.

Adjust the sharpness, adjust the Enhancer mode from 3 to 2 or from 2 to 1, adjust the noise reduction features and you'll wind up with a very sharp picture. I honestly feel that many people that are finding the Pioneer picture too 'tame', should never ever consider an ISF calibration...they'll hate it!

An ISF calibration would take the 'pop' out of the colors, giving them a more natural look. I also know that an ISF would clean up some of the noise...but would it decrease the sharpess and dim the brightness as well?

Just out of curiousity Ken, are those adjustments your prefered setting? Any other adjustments you would suggest? I need to go in to my local shop and get that remote in my hands.

HDTV Test review... http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP4280XD/

:) Awesome. Also a link in the 8g Owner's thread. Read away. These guys actually buy the equipment, test it... and sell back at a loss. AV love at its finest. Anyway, this guy (Vincent) was so impressed with his 4280 he may consider keeping it as reference.

Blackest blacks ever in any HDTV he's ever tested. 100 percent better than the latest Panasonic are some paraphrasing. Best TV he's seen at this size. Read it!

I can only imagine what they're going to say about the 1080p 8Gs. They'll be off the charts!

An ISF calibration would take the 'pop' out of the colors, giving them a more natural look. I also know that an ISF would clean up some of the noise...but would it decrease the sharpess and dim the brightness as well?

Just out of curiousity Ken, are those adjustments your prefered setting? Any other adjustments you would suggest? I need to go in to my local shop and get that remote in my hands.

No, to be honest, I prefer a sharper more contrasty picture...at least for video. For film, I prefer a smoother, somewhat more subdued look. But I've always firmly believed (there's probably a lightning bolt with my name on it coming from the ISF skies) that an ISF'd TV just doesn't look quite right to me for video-based material. Video, IMO, should mimmick real life and for that you need additional pop beyond what ISF provides. Let's face it, video and film are two entirely different mediums and it never made sense to me how one set of adjustments could maximize the look of both.

But this is my opinion only. What's right is what works for you. :)

P.S. Also interesting in the review was the statement that PAL signals did display some noise in certain settings. I think back to our European friend who mentioned his new Pioneer had noise beyond what his Panasonic displayed. I think it was correctly stated that it could be an issue with PAL frequencies.

PPS- No mention of a 'soft' picture to be found anywhere in the review. ;)

No, to be honest, I prefer a sharper more contrasty picture...at least for video. For film, I prefer a smoother, somewhat more subdued look. But I've always firmly believed (there's probably a lightning bolt with my name on it coming from the ISF skies) that an ISF'd TV just doesn't look quite right to me for video-based material. Video, IMO, should mimmick real life and for that you need additional pop beyond what ISF provides. Let's face it, video and film are two entirely different mediums and it never made sense to me how one set of adjustments could maximize the look of both.

But this is my opinion only. What's right is what works for you. :)

P.S. Also interesting in the review was the statement that PAL signals did display some noise in certain settings. I think back to our European friend who mentioned his new Pioneer had noise beyond what his Panasonic displayed. I think it was correctly stated that it could be an issue with PAL frequencies.

PPS- No mention of a 'soft' picture to be found anywhere in the review. ;)

That makes sense about video content...definitely something to take into account. Does that mean that you will not be one of the consumers who get their sets ISF calibrated?

How far do you turn up the sharpness...do you max it out for video?

No, to be honest, I prefer a sharper more contrasty picture...at least for video. For film, I prefer a smoother, somewhat more subdued look. But I've always firmly believed (there's probably a lightning bolt with my name on it coming from the ISF skies) that an ISF'd TV just doesn't look quite right to me for video-based material. Video, IMO, should mimmick real life and for that you need additional pop beyond what ISF provides. Let's face it, video and film are two entirely different mediums and it never made sense to me how one set of adjustments could maximize the look of both.

But this is my opinion only. What's right is what works for you. :)

P.S. Also interesting in the review was the statement that PAL signals did display some noise in certain settings. I think back to our European friend who mentioned his new Pioneer had noise beyond what his Panasonic displayed. I think it was correctly stated that it could be an issue with PAL frequencies.

PPS- No mention of a 'soft' picture to be found anywhere in the review. ;)

Because there is no softness and I've been repeating this for so long. ISFers and professional calibrators aren't tricked by edge enhanced bullcrap. :) I have yet to read one professional review complaining about softness. C-net actually just goes on and on about how razor sharp the 5070 was. The Pioneer Pro-FHD1 being the sharpest of the lot. The only people I'd imagine who'd complain are those who've been watching edge enhanced TVs and have become used to it.

To think the 42 inch has the "weakest" black level of the newer lineup. That's just mind boggling. The "weakest" link just beat the hell out of all the flat panels out there in terms of contrast.

But we know the pio IS soft. :p j/k Ok not really, well maybe.. Ken i still think they are sweet plasmas no question. The review did mention that panasonic shadow detail is better, i would have to disagree..

But we know the pio IS soft. :p j/k Ok not really, well maybe.. Ken i still think they are sweet plasmas no question. The review did mention that panasonic shadow detail is better, i would have to disagree..

Ya know about the shadow detail. I'm pretty sure an Elite version could iron out that 0-20 percent gamma skew they had. I wouldn't give it too much problem. Besides the fact that I'd rather take the incredible black reproduction vs. a few bits and pieces of shadow detail missing. Keep in mind Vincent did mention that it was a very very slight difference.

I want my shadow detail too, but it has to be rich and dark. The later the Pioneer seems to brush off the Panasonic quite dramatically. He also makes a comment you can bring out those details by higher gamma, at the cost of optimum contrast.

Thing is even if you did lose that contrast... the contrast will probably still be objectively better than the Panny.

Zues, it may well be that at the settings he dialed-in, it was. But remember he said there was just a hair more shadow detail on the Panny. The bottom line, and most importantly, it surely didn't seem to lessen his obvious enthusiasm for the panel! ;)

I can only imagine what they're going to say about the 1080p 8Gs. They'll be off the charts!

You said a mouthfull on that score! JUST IMAGINE what a 1080p 60" Elite is going to look like!!...well, actually I have been imagining this fact ever since reading about the Pioneer "SED KILLER" at CES last January. Yep, we're definitely into the "Plasma Glory Days" from here on out!

How do you kill something that doesn't exist? ;)
I think it is against the law to molest something that is already dead. :eek: I saw it mentioned on CSI. :D :D

Cheers, :)

Gary

P.S Perhaps we should have a thread for the official SED funeral.

You said a mouthfull on that score! JUST IMAGINE what a 1080p 60" Elite is going to look like!!...well, actually I have been imagining this fact ever since reading about the Pioneer "SED KILLER" at CES last January. Yep, we're definitely into the "Plasma Glory Days" from here on out!I can only hope that Pioneer will make one with an M-Card slot next year.

But we know the pio IS soft. :p j/k Ok not really, well maybe.. Ken i still think they are sweet plasmas no question. The review did mention that panasonic shadow detail is better, i would have to disagree..

I told you the Panny had better shadow detail.

I told you the Panny had better shadow detail.

I told some people that would be the only thing you would say about the review. I also made a bet. Hah. I won 20 bucks. :)

Here's another point. I was at a Magnolia yesterday and they had the 950 right next to last year's 42" Elite. The way the sets were adjusted, the pictures were strikingly similar with the exception of black levels. I would have been hard pressed to tell the difference in color quality between any of the Elites they had hooked up. However, when a scene became dark, you would have had to be blind to not see the striking difference between the two. The new Elite had both far better black levels and, at the same time, better shadow detail.

So to address a comment from Auditor who says he'd rather wait for a radical new design, I say it is totally unnecessary. Pioneer has adressed the one weakness of plasmas when it comes to picture quality, black levels. A high end, properly adjusted plasma already has generally excellent colors...no need for radical improvement or a change in technology. Same thing with brightness levels, I've never come close to maxing out the brightness on my current plasmas.

The only real weakness has been black levels. So if a manufacturer can address that weakness by a major tweaking of a current technology, why not? That's why these Pioneers are being lableled the "SED Killers". I can guarantee you this, if SED were ever to make it to the marketplace, since it would be a radical change in technology, it surely will carry with it it's own unique issues that will have to be addressed in subsequent SED generations. For that reason it makes more sense to me to tweak an already mature technology to equal or surpass a new one who's unique issues we've yet to find out. :)

You have to be kidding me. If and when SED comes to the market, its going to noticeable superior to plasma in everyway. The blacks will beyond the best that PDP has to offer, surpassing CRT. Along with absolute blacks, the whites will truly be white and not cream colored whites.

No dithering, no color banding, false contouring, noise free. Lighter, thinner, sexier :) , more flexible (can be used as computer monitors, cellphones & Laptops), energy efficient, enviornmentally friendly.

It is impossible for PDP to equal SED, why? Because SED was designed to better than both PDP and LCD.

You have to be kidding me. If and when SED comes to the market, its going to noticeable superior to plasma in everyway. The blacks will beyond the best that PDP has to offer, surpassing CRT. Along with absolute blacks, the whites will truly be white and not cream colored whites.

No dithering, no color banding, false contouring, noise free. Lighter, thinner, sexier :) , more flexible (can be used as computer monitors, cellphones & Laptops), energy efficient, enviornmentally friendly.

It is impossible for PDP to equal SED, why? Because SED was designed to better than both PDP and LCD.

This is so awesome. "IF AND WHEN"... that's the first time I heard you post those words. At least the ifs are starting come in.

Hehehe. Are you just like typing out the stuff you're thinking in your head as like flat screen panels begin to get better? You're startin to make claims like "SED has better blacks than a CRT" ... even when the greatest CRTs are almost at null on all black screens? You're turning this TV performance issue into a green issue with the "saving the planet" environmentally friendly card?

You're so confused. You're describing OLED when you're talking about SED. Man this smells of desperation. And the Pioneer PDP was designed to kill SED hence it's impossible for SED to exist.

Change then "If and when" to "never and forever".

This is so awesome. "IF AND WHEN"... that's the first time I heard you post those words. At least the ifs are starting come in.

Hehehe. Are you just like typing out the stuff you're thinking in your head as like flat screen panels begin to get better? You're startin to make claims like "SED has better blacks than a CRT" ... even when the greatest CRTs are almost at null on all black screens? You're turning this TV performance issue into a green issue with the "saving the planet" environmentally friendly card?

You're so confused. You're describing OLED when you're talking about SED. Man this smells of desperation. And the Pioneer PDP was designed to kill SED hence it's impossible for SED to exist.

Change then "If and when" to "never and forever".

You know it all, you have seen the future. :rolleyes:

I see OLED as being the future. I can't wait to be able to have a paper thin display.

SED was something interesting. It's old and buried news now. Stop being the witch doctor attempting to bring it back as a zombie.

So if 8G has 16000:1 static contrast, why dynamic contrast is only 3000:1? :confused:He actually said "in excess of 3,000:1.". I thnk the EU classifes their dynamic contrast ratio as what we call ANSI contrat ratio (or form of ANSI).

You have to be kidding me. If and when SED comes to the market, its going to noticeable superior to plasma in everyway. The blacks will beyond the best that PDP has to offer, surpassing CRT. Along with absolute blacks, the whites will truly be white and not cream colored whites.

No dithering, no color banding, false contouring, noise free. Lighter, thinner, sexier :) , more flexible (can be used as computer monitors, cellphones & Laptops), energy efficient, enviornmentally friendly.

It is impossible for PDP to equal SED, why? Because SED was designed to better than both PDP and LCD.Designed and executing the design are entirely two different realities.

You know it all, you have seen the future. :rolleyes:

No. But my magic 8 ball can. And I asked what was SED's future looking like. Then I shook that sucker up... closed my eyes and then peaked. Guess what it read!

"Kuro!"

:)

That technology's luck is turning black indeed. Way blacker than the blacks it churned out in those CEATEC demos.

He actually said "in excess of 3,000:1.". I thnk the EU classifes their dynamic contrast ratio as what we call ANSI contrat ratio (or form of ANSI).

3000:1 ANSI CR has got to be a record by a looonng shot!

3000:1 ANSI CR has got to be a record by a looonng shot!

Well I was thinking this too. But I don't think there measurement is some form of checkerboard pattern.

Take this for example.

"Post calibration dynamic contrast ratio was an impressive ~1000:1 due to the excellent black level." - talking about the Panny 10th gen.

Now it sounds all fine and dandy but the reviewer complained about rising blacks. The black level retention was not stable.

So w/ a rising black, you'd think a 1000:1 (some form of ANSI) might be a tad bit high.

You wouldn't see the floating blacks with a checkerboard pattern. There are specific test patterns to test floating black. The reviewer commented on this here:

"The TV passes blacker-than-black levels and so you can be confident about calibrating reference black level accurately. For reasons I don't understand, the black level retention tests were unstable, meaning that the black part of the screen fluctuates depending on the average brightness of the current image. There was no dynamic dimming function in the user menu to turn off. The good thing is that it is done very discreetly and was not noticeable on regular viewing."

You wouldn't see the floating blacks with a checkerboard pattern. There are specific test patterns to test floating black. The reviewer commented on this here:

"The TV passes blacker-than-black levels and so you can be confident about calibrating reference black level accurately. For reasons I don't understand, the black level retention tests were unstable, meaning that the black part of the screen fluctuates depending on the average brightness of the current image. There was no dynamic dimming function in the user menu to turn off. The good thing is that it is done very discreetly and was not noticeable on regular viewing."

Oh? Hmm. I thought floating blacks would appear once bright images appear on screen. White squares don't constitute as bright I'd imagine. Not too sure what triggers floating blacks then... or atleast in Panasonic's case.

For my rear projection it's any impact of strong colors and light. ICK.

Varying brightness levels trigger floating blacks. Because the checkerboard pattern is a static pattern with both bright and dark static areas, it will not trigger floating blacks.

Varying brightness levels trigger floating blacks. Because the checkerboard pattern is a static pattern with both bright and dark static areas, it will not trigger floating blacks.

Got it. Flat panels behave differently in this case then. You'd think it'd be easy for flat panels to not have this problem.

That makes sense about video content...definitely something to take into account. Does that mean that you will not be one of the consumers who get their sets ISF calibrated?

How far do you turn up the sharpness...do you max it out for video?

No, I never max out sharpness since it will invariably introduce artifacts. I will nudge up sharpness until I begin to see artifacts due to over-sharpening.

Yes, I will be one of those that don't get their panel ISF'd. :)

You have to be kidding me. If and when SED comes to the market, its going to noticeable superior to plasma in everyway. The blacks will beyond the best that PDP has to offer, surpassing CRT. Along with absolute blacks, the whites will truly be white and not cream colored whites.

No dithering, no color banding, false contouring, noise free. Lighter, thinner, sexier :) , more flexible (can be used as computer monitors, cellphones & Laptops), energy efficient, enviornmentally friendly.

It is impossible for PDP to equal SED, why? Because SED was designed to better than both PDP and LCD.

Auditor, you are so predictable it's laughable! The review that just came out confimred virtually EVERYTHING we have been saying about the Pioneers. They confirmed that all the 'hype' was totally justified. They confirmed that the 8g Pioneers do NOT have all the 'issues' you mention above. That puts a LIE to your comment of just yesterday 'what's all the hype about'. Repeating a lie does not make it a truth. So it's time for a bit more integrity from you don't you think?

But we knew you would say what you did, because you are desperate, unrealistic, living in some kind of very strange fantasy world, able to blot out anything factual and insert all your strange, erroneous predetermined 'insights'.

Here's a fact Auditor, any differences in black levels from this point on will be so tiny, so insignificant, that they will NEVER be a selling point from this day forward.

So Auditor, you lose and most of the rest of us win. It's time to get a grip on reality, it's time to start seeing things objecitvely, it's time to start realizing that everyone else isn't crazy, it's time to start realizing that these reviews are for real and are confirming everything we said. And for you Auditor, most importantly, it's time to begin a new investment strategy. Dumping all your assets in SED has failed. The SED killers are out now. You didn't do your research and as recently as 2 days ago, you didn't know the difference between SED and OLED. Pretty scary stuff. So we're supposed to take anything you say seriously? C'mon now, get a grip.

Auditor, you are not taken seriously here, trust us. You are essentially nothing more than a troll at this point. Back to the SED threads with you! :rolleyes:

Auditor, you are so predictable it's laughable! The review that just came out confimred virtually EVERYTHING we have been saying about the Pioneers. They confirmed that all the 'hype' was totally justified. They confirmed that the 8g Pioneers do NOT have all the 'issues' you mention above. That puts a LIE to your comment of just yesterday 'what's all the hype about'. Repeating a lie does not make it a truth. So it's time for a bit more integrity from you don't you think?

But we knew you would say what you did, because you are desperate, unrealistic, living in some kind of very strange fantasy world, able to blot out anything factual and insert all your strange, erroneous predetermined 'insights'.

Here's a fact Auditor, any differences in black levels from this point on will be so tiny, so insignificant, that they will NEVER be a selling point from this day forward.

So Auditor, you lose and most of the rest of us win. It's time to get a grip on reality, it's time to start seeing things objecitvely, it's time to start realizing that everyone else isn't crazy, it's time to start realizing that these reviews are for real and are confirming everything we said. And for you Auditor, most importantly, it's time to begin a new investment strategy. Dumping all your assets in SED has failed. The SED killers are out now. You didn't do your research and as recently as 2 days ago, you didn't know the difference between SED and OLED. Pretty scary stuff. So we're supposed to take anything you say seriously? C'mon now, get a grip.

Auditor, you are not taken seriously here, trust us. You are essentially nothing more than a troll at this point. Back to the SED threads with you! :rolleyes:

Uh, shouldn't we go to the "80 percent black level thread" and change it to "More than 100 percent blacker" ?

:) Heh-heh.

Auditor, you are not taken seriously here, trust us. You are essentially nothing more than a troll at this point. Back to the SED threads with you! :rolleyes:
He was trolling over in the SXRD threads long before he arrived here - same issues - same loyalty to Vaporware "SED" and whoever is host to the next best blacks will inherit his presence with the same stubborn tunnelvision even if it smacks him in the face with reality - you have to recognize reality and have an objective state but in his case SED is a sickness when none exists to actually discuss on the forum. This won't change it either -

I picture him sitting with a Den and empty TV stand with candles burning and perhaps an enlarged Poster of a CES SED from 18 months ago and praying to the alter of blacks nobody can touch or SEE and he's made a pact with the devil for his SED and he just keeps getting teasers with no manifestation of something real. I truly think he gets his kicks from this as he did the same thing with the SXRD for the longest time. ;)

An ISF calibration would take the 'pop' out of the colors, giving them a more natural look. I also know that an ISF would clean up some of the noise...but would it decrease the sharpess and dim the brightness as well?

Just out of curiousity Ken, are those adjustments your prefered setting? Any other adjustments you would suggest? I need to go in to my local shop and get that remote in my hands.

An ISF calibration take the 'pop' out of colors??

This hasn't been my experience with CRT's. Can anyone who's had a Pio plasma calibrated chime in here?

WOW! Great review! There were hardly any cons, and this is merely the entry level
television. I am stoked to imagine the quality of the Elites, but I am getting ahead of
myself here. I really am impressed with what I've been seeing in the stores and this
review confirms it even more. I'm happy he mentioned the ridiculous amount of options
for settings and how vague the manual is on explaining them. I fear the ones for the
elites will be even more complicated. Perhaps Pioneer will offer some sort of online
calibration feature or something. Would be cool...

Sigh, I still have 2 months to wait, but it's another great time to be the consumer.
The Plasma fans have a nice assortment of plasmas, while the LCD fans will be eyeing
the LED-based 81-series TV's. All this while HD televisions become cheaper.

If there's one thing I look forward to, it would be saying the following: "I've finally
found the true replacement of my Sony KV40XBR800 HDTV". :)

An ISF calibration take the 'pop' out of colors??

This hasn't been my experience with CRT's. Can anyone who's had a Pio plasma calibrated chime in here?

I believe he's talking about "pop" in relation to torch modes that some people enjoy. You can only get so 'poppy' when your colors are accurate.

A high color temped over saturated mess will always look 'poppier'. If your TV is accurately calibrated... can it be as poppy? That's what seperates good TVs and bad TVs.