I believe he's talking about "pop" in relation to torch modes that some people enjoy. You can only get so 'poppy' when your colors are accurate.

A high color temped over saturated mess will always look 'poppier'. If your TV is accurately calibrated... can it be as poppy? That's what seperates good TVs and bad TVs.

I needed that. I'm fully depending on a pro calibration of the new 1080p Elite.
I get the torch mode bit. I missed Ken's point.

Auditor55, johnnybrulez is correct. OLED is an infinitely more flexible technology (both literally and figuratively).

Like he mentioned, it literally can be flexible, bent like a thin piece of plastic, etc. See the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcAm3KihFho

In the figurative sense, it is flexible because it can be used for a vast array of purposes.

1) OLEDs can be almost totally transparent, like a window. This makes them useful for Heads-up displays (HUDs) in cars, airplanes, novelty sunglasses, and a million things like that.

2) OLEDs can be set to emit light only in the infrared spectrum, great for soldiers who are wearing infrared goggles during military missions.

3) OLEDs are predicted to eventually replace the light bulb, or at least become a very popular new source of lighting.

etc etc

Wow, that is actually the first time I saw that video. HOLY BUCKETS! SWEET! Sign me up!!!

^^^^^ Very Nice !!

HDTV Test review... http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP4280XD/

:) Awesome. Also a link in the 8g Owner's thread. Read away. These guys actually buy the equipment, test it... and sell back at a loss. AV love at its finest. Anyway, this guy (Vincent) was so impressed with his 4280 he may consider keeping it as reference.

Blackest blacks ever in any HDTV he's ever tested. 100 percent better than the latest Panasonic are some paraphrasing. Best TV he's seen at this size. Read it!
Thanks a lot, guys! I was all set to get the Panny 50" plasma, but now I KNOW that I couldn't be satisfied with anything less than the 5080. Time to start scrounging up some more money :)

He was trolling over in the SXRD threads long before he arrived here - same issues - same loyalty to Vaporware "SED" and whoever is host to the next best blacks will inherit his presence with the same stubborn tunnelvision even if it smacks him in the face with reality

Why would you listening to him. He hates plasma. I own a Plasma. He admits to stirring trouble in in the Plasma forums for his loyalty and belief that LCD is superior to Plasma. Do you see want he owns, a LCD of all things.

I had right to stir things up in the SXRD threads, since I owned 3 of those things. I knew what I was talking about when it came to the SXRD. The SXRD was the hyped display prior to the Pio 8G, all the claims of CRT of blacks, the best TV ever created, the new Sony Trinitron of this era, so on and so forth. After owning 3 of them I came to learn it was all hype. Remember the Qualia owners!

Now again, I'm not saying that The Pio 8g isn't a good plasma display. I'm not somone so in love with the TV that I purchased that I can't be honest.

SED is a technology that was designed to be superior to Plasma and LCD in everyway. I strongly believe it is!! I would include OLED in that as well.

I don't care if it is vaporware, I excited about the fact that we could have a display technology like SED, like OLED.

If we left it up to some of you, we would never have any new technologies. Why don't some of you tell display technology engineers that they need to stop designing any new technologies because we have the 8g, its the holy grail, its perfection. 50 years from now we will still have plasma and nothing else.

Wow, that is actually the first time I saw that video. HOLY BUCKETS! SWEET! Sign me up!!!

Impressive indeed. As I said, give me a 55 inch OLED. SED and OLED are both superior to PDP.

Why would you listening to him. He hates plasma. I own a Plasma. He admits to stirring trouble in in the Plasma forums for his loyalty and belief that LCD is superior to Plasma. Do you see want he owns, a LCD of all things.

I had right to stir things up in the SXRD threads, since I owned 3 of those things. I knew what I was talking about when it came to the SXRD. The SXRD was the hyped display prior to the Pio 8G, all the claims of CRT of blacks, the best TV ever created, the new Sony Trinitron of this era, so on and so forth. After owning 3 of them I came to learn it was all hype. Remember the Qualia owners!

Now again, I'm not saying that The Pio 8g is a good plasma display. I'm not somone so in love with the TV that I purchased that I can't be honest.

SED is a technology that was designed to be superior to Plasma and LCD in everyway. I strongly believe it is!! I would include OLED in that as well.

I don't care if it is vaporware, I excited about the fact that we could have a display technology like SED, like OLED.

If we left it up to some of you, we would never have any new technologies. Why don't some of you tell display technology engineers that they need to stop designing any new technologies because we have the 8g, its the holy grail, its perfection. 50 years from now we will still have plasma and nothing else.

Yet you're such a Pioneer 8g expert by taking a peak at your local store? Claiming that you know how black the blacks are in a comparison that wasn't anything close to optimum? "The samsung was as good as black as the Pioneer." Is that some kind of joke?

Yes, the new Samsung LCD (not LED) may be better than the Panasonic plasma you own. But it ain't darker than the new Pioneer. Not by a long shot. You were already convinced that the 8g was all hype in the first place, yet you come here posting a horribly formatted post about how "hype driven they were", while we get awesome reviews by HDTV Test saying different.

Don't get these people here wrong. We're far from anti-development. But as far as SED is concerned that tech has been the pivotal example of "anti-development". Just a bunch of false promises, dangling that carrot over people's heads and making them keep jumping for the stars. For how long now?

SED and OLED are gonna be great, the later having a much higher chance of being released. Now I'm all for new tech man. I love choices. I'm actually giving the Samsung LED local dimming a shot before I make my decision. But an enthusiasm for a push in like home theater PQ should go beyond "Supporting SED" or "Supporting OLED". They're techs that will come out... if the market deems fit and the manufacturers don't screw up. I say we should support and check out any type of development... not just a certain tech.

Whether you like it or not, these new 8gs killed the need for an "SED". And even though I believe these plasmas themselves probably are equal to the previous SEDs (I know you don't.) The arguement goes far beyond just the 8g Pioneers. What these 8g Pioneer started is a movement towards something SED was "trying" to start a couple years ago.

Pretty soon Samsungs LEDs will come out to counter the new Pioneers. Probably next year a few others like Sony and Panasonic will unveil their own new black tech to be released. Pioneer isn't gonna sit by and watch idly and they'll push their next plasmas up another notch. These TVs are only going to get better and better. (That is if this ridiculous price drop bonanza slows down. Which might help SED in terms of pricing anyway.)

Your worst comments are that "Plasmas and LCDs have reached their peak." You said that last year about the plasmas, and I can only laugh as the 8gs pretty much ripped that comment to shreds. What will happen in a couple of years when plasmas continue to get better and better? Granted what Pioneer did almost regulated it to not being called a "plasma"...

The sad fact is, more than likely SED will still be sitting in the dugout, no one touching it, dust covering it while other TV techs get a new shiny gloss. SED's going to be surpassed, (I believe it already has) if not for you now, it will for you in the near future. PQ can only get so good my friend.

I'll leave you with this quote from Dave Conroy of C-net who pretty much echoes what's been said.

"However, I think that ultimately, while SED had plenty of fanboys like Gus738, its basic problem--and why it was never going to make it--was that it didn't have a real advantage over LCD or plasma. By that I mean its picture quality wasn't that much better. The fact of the matter is that, when you looked at an SED prototype next to a plasma or LCD, you didn't immediately declare it the winner--you actually had to look and think about it. As I said, it looked really good, but at the same time, plasmas and LCD panels have been improving, and in the end, the difference just wasn't that significant. And ultimately, I think, that's the reason Canon and Toshiba abandoned SED."

I'd take C-net over alot of the crazies in the AVSForum anyday. At least they can tell the difference between OLED and SED.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6741419-1.html

Now I'm all for new tech man.

Why? Are you for new tech or just because its new or because you believe its going to take you beyond what is currently available?

Having said that, looking at OLED, do you think it will be superior to the 8G, just your opinion.

Of course OLED is going to be better than plasma. It will be better than LCD, and the late SED for that matter. However, with all new tech, there will be teething problems. I still cannot fathom why you think SED was going to be the "perfect display". It's MAN MADE. Name one thing Man has created that was perfect.

I have seen the 55" SED and I think that you wouldn't like the picture. SED is absolutely brutal and authentic to the source. There's no artificial softness or sharpness in the picture, but the picture is really really sharp even during motion. If these things ever come out, you need to stop boycotting high bitrate blurays or find a source for uncompressed movies.

8G vs SED debate is laughable. You can buy 8G now. Performance wise 8G is no where near the SED. End of debate. The Samsung plasmas are "nice", but you really shouldn't be looking for a plasma this year if PQ is your thing.


I think I'll take the advice of somone that got a chance to see the 55 inch 100,000-1 CR SED set.

That is why I have given up on plasma and await the new technologies.

Why? Are you for new tech or just because its new or because you believe its going to take you beyond what is currently available?

Having said that, looking at OLED, do you think it will be superior to the 8G, just your opinion.

New tech has the potential to take you beyond what is currently available. The new Pioneer 8gs took me waaay beyond what I got with my Pioneer 5070, or any other flat panel TV I've seen and watched on and that fact is here and now. I am sure there will be a time when I watch something in the future and go... "Woow, this is so much better." again. It already happened to me in about I dunno... a year?

So whether it's SED or OLED, I'm all for it. I want some competition and if there's something better out there, then great. The best OLED TVs when it gets into high gear, which might be a ways a way will probably outperform the 8g Pioneers (by how much? I dunno). But whose to say plasmas and LCDs themselves will not improve in the future? Also how much is it gonna cost to upgrade to OLED? Do I really want to be one of the earliest owners? Is it going to be thaaat much better? We'll see...

So yes, I believe a future OLED will be superior to the 8g... but a 9g? 10g? 11g? 12g? (Assuming Pioneer gets that far). Who knows? I'm not sure because I have an optimism for the future. Don't forget Panasonic is in this race later as well. Because unlike you, and as history proves. Plasmas and LCDs are far from done in terms of improving themselves.

An anti-point would be for example how we all know some people who curse LCDs for their blacks yet those in "the know" and those that are not "anti-development" know that some LCDs even surpass the pre-Kuro plasmas in terms of black reproduction.

Those are the anti-development. The ones that are totally ignorant. Those ones who hold a flag for a certain technology and brand. Not people who hold a flag for PQ by itself.

Of course OLED is going to be better than plasma. It will be better than LCD, and the late SED for that matter. However, with all new tech, there will be teething problems. I still cannot fathom why you think SED was going to be the "perfect display". It's MAN MADE. Name one thing Man has created that was perfect.

Do you think its going to better than the 8G?

Of course OLED is going to be better than plasma. It will be better than LCD, and the late SED for that matter. However, with all new tech, there will be teething problems. I still cannot fathom why you think SED was going to be the "perfect display". It's MAN MADE. Name one thing Man has created that was perfect.

Uh... Jessica Alba?

Yes Auditor. And "it" is OLED not SED.

Of course OLED is going to be better than plasma. It will be better than LCD, and the late SED for that matter. However, with all new tech, there will be teething problems. I still cannot fathom why you think SED was going to be the "perfect display". It's MAN MADE. Name one thing Man has created that was perfect.
Yummy. LOL

Uh... Jessica Alba?Man did not create her. Man enhanced her :D

Don't forget Panasonic is in this race later as well.

Panasonic have taken a step backwards. Their 58 inch 1080p Panny has CR of 5,000-1 and it weighs a whooping 163 lbs.

Yes Auditor. And "it" is OLED not SED.

What is about OLED that makes it superior to Plasma and that SED does't have.

My argument is not SED v. OLED, my argument is SED v. Plasma.

Man did not create her. Man enhanced her :D

Hahaha.

n't forget Panasonic is in this race later as well.

Yes, I believe they took a step backward.. at least in terms that all of their improvements aren't all that noticeable besides that anti-glare 77u which amazed me.

But still, Panasonic is a good plasma developer. They'll want to upgrade sooner or later and they defintely will.

And about your OLED question. It has alot of things going for it that SED didn't have.

1) Competent manfufacurers. (Samsung, Sony... heck even Toshiba might join. Don't know if we'd want that.)

2) It's more versatile. (I.E. What you're claiming SED could do when it couldn't.)

Those are just two reasons and the later is huge. The biggest success OLED will have is its ability to be very very thin and flexible. That means so many possiblities. I think we're getting to a point where PQ is going to be so good on flat panels that stuff like being able to put the tech anywhere (in a mirror, under a pool) or like being able to hang a 2 inch flat panel will aid a certain tech by far.

The thinner the better. SED was just as big as Plasmas and LCDs. OLED is much much more 'futuristic' in that sense. Didn't you watch Minority Report?!

I'd take C-net over alot of the crazies in the AVSForum anyday. At least they can tell the difference between OLED and SED.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6741419-1.html

I read that CNET article and followed the link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9582875&&#post9582875) to Gus738's recent post and found something very enlightening in his sig:

Waiting for SED

For now the Pioneer PDP-5080 will be on my soon to buy list

Even someone named "Mr. Waiting for SED" in a CNET article has a new Pioneer on his soon-to-buy list.

Lots of posts; not a lot of substance

May I ask that OLED/SED discussions be limited to other threads dedicated to those topics (that means not here)

Please keep On Topic

Thanks

I read that CNET article and followed the link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9582875&&#post9582875) to Gus738's recent post and found something very enlightening in his sig:



Even someone named "Mr. Waiting for SED" in a CNET article has a new Pioneer on his soon-to-buy list.

Yes, Gus has seen the light. :)

I personally can't wait till C-net to get their review Pioneer sample. As well as Hometheatermag so I can get a reading to compare fully and accurately.

Mark, you beat me to deleting my post :D

OK, I finally saw a 5080 at another BestBuy. Fortunately next to it was a Samsung a 50" plasma, the FP-T5084. I was able to compare these 2 excellent models. The Pioneer looked excellent. In this viewing experience, the most noticable improvement over previous Pioneers was that it wasn't as soft as previous models I've seen. Oh, the black thing. Honestly guys, I was only able to see this black level superiority when both screens went blank with no signal.
Quite frankly, the Samsung had better shadow detail. That said, that detail may have been at the expense of too much sharpness on the Samsung. Conversely, the Pioneers comparatively softer picture may mean not enough sharpness.
Bottom line from my 20 minute experience is the Pioneer is good but nowhere near the hype. In fact I could just as easily take the Samsung. Both are excellent. The differences I mentioned and others are I didn't are small and would leave price and warranty as my major consideration.

OK, I finally saw a 5080 at another BestBuy. Fortunately next to it was a Samsung a 50" plasma, the FP-T5084. I was able to compare these 2 excellent models. The Pioneer looked excellent. In this viewing experience, the most noticable improvement over previous Pioneers was that it wasn't as soft as previous models I've seen. Oh, the black thing. Honestly guys, I was only able to see this black level superiority when both screens went blank with no signal.
Quite frankly, the Samsung had better shadow detail. That said, that detail may have been at the expense of too much sharpness on the Samsung. Conversely, the Pioneers comparatively softer picture may mean not enough sharpness.
Bottom line from my 20 minute experience is the Pioneer is good but nowhere near the hype. In fact I could just as easily take the Samsung. Both are excellent. The differences I mentioned and others are I didn't are small and would leave price and warranty as my major consideration.

Short answer that I've given to anyone that doesn't "see much difference". You need the room to be darker. You need to calibrate the two. If you don't do either... eh, (insert broken record answer here) An in-store impression as a whole means nothing to those who want a good home theater TV. Can't anyone here attest to buying a TV expecting the blacks you saw at the store... only to go home and wonder WTF happened? Lights affects apparent darkness. Almost all TVs look suffiecently dark in daytime situations. BB is WAY more than a daytime situation.

On second thought, it's just sad that this bit of info needs to be repeated so much. Don't people like... read anymore?

Short answer that I've given to anyone that doesn't "see much difference". You need the room to be darker. You need to calibrate the two. If you don't do either... eh, (insert broken record answer here)

An in-store impression as a whole means nothing to those who want a good home theater TV. Can't anyone here attest to buying a TV expecting the blacks you saw at the store... only to go home and wonder WTF happened?


The pio is definitely a tv that needs a dark room to look it's best. Even in the bright store i still could tell the pio has the best blacks though, quite significantly. But i think most people that see's these at best buy under the lights, the pio dont have quite the same brightness, sharpness, pop, as the others. A little soft, a little blurry, not quite as bright compared to the others. Imo of course.

The pio is definitely a tv that needs a dark room to look it's best. Even in the bright store i still could tell the pio has the best blacks though, quite significantly. But i think most people that see's these at best buy under the lights, the pio dont have quite the same brightness, sharpness, pop, as the others. A little soft, a little blurry, not quite as bright compared to the others. Imo of course.

Sometimes it's apparent to some.. not so to others. At Best Buy, the 5080 doesn't seem to have much better blacks, too bright. At Magnolia the light has been hit or miss. Things like brightness, color temp, and alot of factors decides which TVs look "sharper". Who cares if the TV looks sharper in a bright room on torch mode? An AV enthusiast or a person striving for accuracy would take it out of that setting anyway.

Who cares if tha LCD looks so inky black in the daytime? Most of us avid movie watchers watch movies in a dim room. So for those interested in the Pioneers with that hefty price range. You need to find a way to get your curious little face inside a dark room with an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray feed. A remote is better too. Other wise you may come back disappointed.

People wonder why the masses believe hi-quality CRTs aren't much better in PQ. It's because under bright lights, those inky ass blacks are all but useless. Torch modes and edge enhancement will rule the day. Unless you're gonna watch TV at BB using thier loops all the time... it's not a fair comparison.

This is the TRUTH. If I were to walk into the store, and just go around looking for the sharpest and most contrasty picture that looked best to my eyes, I probably wouldn't pick out the Pioneer 5080. I'd probably get a better deal going to Vizio, the anti-glare Panasonic, or another LCD. Clueless little old me doesn't know that once I go home and turn off the lights... I wouldn't be getting the best picture available at the store.

Gee, you wouldn't know I complimented Pioneer from the responses. I just didn't see the revolutionary advances you guys are inclined to see. I don't live in a cave or have my plasma working only under specific lighting circumstances.
I think a good set should look at least good during most lighting conditions, and their best in the dark.

Sorry Mark, just one more comment:

Forget plasma. Forget SED. Forget OLED. I'm holding out for DONTSEE (Direct Optic Nerve Signal Transduction, Excitation, and Enervation). You don't even need functioning eyes, much less a display panel. The signal is jacked directly into your optic nerve, bypassing both the lens and retina (great for those of you with cataracts). And power consumption is in the milliwatt range, further reducing your carbon footprint.

Sorry Mark, just one more comment:

Forget plasma. Forget SED. Forget OLED. I'm holding out for DONTSEE (Direct Optic Nerve Signal Transduction, Excitation, and Enervation). You don't even need functioning eyes, much less a display panel. The signal is jacked directly into your optic nerve, bypassing both the lens and retina (great for those of you with cataracts). And power consumption is in the milliwatt range, further reducing your carbon footprint.

So you're ready for the "blue pill."

So you're ready for the "blue pill."

Already took it. :eek:

Gee, you wouldn't know I complimented Pioneer from the responses. I just didn't see the revolutionary advances you guys are inclined to see. I don't live in a cave or have my plasma working only under specific lighting circumstances.
I think a good set should like at least good during most lighting conditions, and their best in the dark.

"Pioneer is good but nowhere near the hype."

Uh... excuse me? You did type that correct?

You don't go into a store without touching the TV remotes, without sending them prestine imagery, without taking into account light, and without calibrating them and then decide what a TVs true potential is. That's no way to go about getting impressions on TVs, especially hi-end home theater TVs.

So sure, maybe you don't watch in a dark enough room to need a good black level. Then go ahead and say it. Don't start making claims like the quote above after your 'comparison' at the store.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP4280XD/ this is how you review a TV.

Things like brightness, color temp, and alot of factors decides which TVs look "sharper". Who cares if the TV looks sharper in a bright room on torch mode? An AV enthusiast or a person striving for accuracy would take it out of that setting anyway.


Ouch. Was that a slam on Samsungs :)
Actually thinking about it, this is a compliment. The fact that it can operate in that manner as well as what others may consider more accurate mode says a lot about the flexbility of a Samsung plasma. Other brands may lack this sort of flexibility.

Ouch. Was that a slam on Samsungs :)
Actually thinking about it, this is a compliment. The fact that it can operate in that manner as well as what others may consider more accurate mode says a lot about the flexbility of a Samsung plasma. Other brands may lack this sort of flexibility.

No way. That's not a slam on Samsung. It's a slam on all TVs who use a dynamic mode out of the box, and it's a slam on those who believe that's the best you're going to get.

All TVs have torch modes. Sony, Pioneer, Samsung, Panasonic. They all look horrible. So unless you're gonna watch TV with bright lights... watch feeds that need all that edge enhancement, and watch beside 20 different TVs on a wall. You don't need it to be that bright. Give me a controller and I can make the Pioneer 5080 look every bit as fake and bright as any of the other plasmas at the store.

Besides, if you just want a bright TV, there's plenty to choose from. Why concern yourself with Pioneers hefty price in the first place? People are paying a premium for home theater performance. Not something that a cheap LCD can do.

Ouch. Was that a slam on Samsungs :)
Actually thinking about it, this is a compliment. The fact that it can operate in that manner as well as what others may consider more accurate mode says a lot about the flexbility of a Samsung plasma. Other brands may lack this sort of flexibility.IMO Samsungs PQ, asthetics, versatility are pretty sweet. It's biggest problem right now is brand name (reputation). For years I considered Samsung a substandard product (lower tier) for good reason as it's performance warrented this. They were more interested in making the "biggest screens in the world" than making the "best screen in the world". But honestly, the last couple of years the Samsung plasmas have looked pretty awesome both in the store and at home as my neighbor has one.

All Samsung needs is a sexy marketing campaign and 1 or 2 more years of high quality performance and they will raise their brand name to teir level 2 right behind Pioneer :)

Note: Panasonic is going the other way, 5 years ago they were the top brand name around. Now thanks to a convoluted clayface problem, very poor asthetics, and little improvement the past couple of years compared to competitors their brand name is slowly eroding. So far only slightly but they better start making strides in performance and not just price cuts. But I do thank them for helping drive down prices all over the flat panel market. Of course this is only my opinion.

Cheers

IMO Samsungs PQ, asthetics, versatility are pretty sweet. It's biggest problem right now is brand name (reputation). For years I considered Samsung a substandard product (lower tier) for good reason as it's performance warrented this. They were more interested in making the "biggest screens in the world" than making the "best screen in the world". But honestly, the last couple of years the Samsung plasmas have looked pretty awesome both in the store and at home as my neighbor has one.

All Samsung needs is a sexy marketing campaign and 1 or 2 more years of high quality performance and they will raise their brand name to teir level 2 right behind Pioneer :)

Note: Panasonic is going the other way, 5 years ago they were the top brand name around. Now thanks to a convoluted clayface problem, very poor asthetics, and little improvement the past couple of years compared to competitors their brand name is slowly eroding. So far only slightly but they better start making strides in performance and not just price cuts. But I do thank them for helping drive down prices all over the flat panel market. Of course this is only my opinion.

Cheers

That I agree with. Well, maybe except that Panasonic bit. But anyway, the Samsungs coming out now are defintely awesome TVs no doubt. The Samsung DLP 50 1080p is my home theater TV right now. By default yes, and it's not perfect, but it gets the job done. And like I said... with some light on, the TVs contrast is impressive.

OK, I finally saw a 5080 at another BestBuy. Fortunately next to it was a Samsung a 50" plasma, the FP-T5084. I was able to compare these 2 excellent models. The Pioneer looked excellent. In this viewing experience, the most noticable improvement over previous Pioneers was that it wasn't as soft as previous models I've seen. Oh, the black thing. Honestly guys, I was only able to see this black level superiority when both screens went blank with no signal.
Quite frankly, the Samsung had better shadow detail. That said, that detail may have been at the expense of too much sharpness on the Samsung. Conversely, the Pioneers comparatively softer picture may mean not enough sharpness.
Bottom line from my 20 minute experience is the Pioneer is good but nowhere near the hype. In fact I could just as easily take the Samsung. Both are excellent. The differences I mentioned and others are I didn't are small and would leave price and warranty as my major consideration.

This real in depth professional review makes your pre-biased observation completely irrelevant.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP4280XD/


Such a shame too, because every one was holding off on buying a Pioneer Kuro until you had completed your reports about having chats with BB staff etc. :D

...

That I agree with. Well, maybe except that Panasonic bit. But anyway, the Samsungs coming out now are defintely awesome TVs no doubt. The Samsung DLP 50 1080p is my home theater TV right now. By default yes, and it's not perfect, but it gets the job done. And like I said... with some light on, the TVs contrast is impressive.Don't get me wrong, I owned a Panny ED and it was considered the best of the best when I bought it thanks to it's comparitively awesome black level. But I don't think Panny has evolved quite as fast as others, probably because it was leading the pack. I just think that the last couple of years Pio has surpased Panny in all aspects and other brand names are closing the gap as well. Panny still makes a great product but it really has not improved much in the last couple of years. And why on earth they chose to over process the image to sell more displays (clayface/ dynamic) is mind boggling. They should have realized that in retail stores viewing distances are 4-8' making the clayface more obvious. Thankfully I don't see it anymore on the new models. And thank god they finally decided to change the bezel design. I'm still not a fan of the new ones but they at least don't look like a fisher price product anymore. Again, I owned one and this is only my opinion :)

Ahh!!! I just realized that I am becoming a Pio fanboy after years of Panny worship!!

Seriously though, bias is human nature and it takes not just performance to change ones mind but also time. I guess my time has come :)

Cheers

Quote:
Originally Posted by discopaul
So basically, don't beleive your trusty old eyes, believe what someone else tells ya
Given what you also said about getting them "ideal", well geesh, most of the top brands will look awesome given those conditions as well.



Look folks. Pay no attention to what he now tells you he claims to have seen. He said in his own post not to believe what someone else tells you. Well that means you should not believe him. He is just someone else. Why he felt the need to come back and tell us, after he had already said that what he would report should not be believed, is very very odd, and very very suspect. Your eyes have it. ;)

Frankly, this is one of the best video reviews I have read in some time. This guy really knows his stuff. But it was also sad to read, as this is more like how The Perfect Vision (and Stereophile Guide to Home Theater) USED to do things, before they completely crapped out with their "convergence" and "mainstream product" reviews.

Rather impressive review for the Pioneer as well. I really can't wait to see the 1080P 60" Elite now.

Don't get me wrong, I owned a Panny ED and it was considered the best of the best when I bought it thanks to it's comparitively awesome black level. But I don't think Panny has evolved quite as fast as others, probably because it was leading the pack. I just think that the last couple of years Pio has surpased Panny in all aspects and other brand names are closing the gap as well. Panny still makes a great product but it really has not improved much in the last couple of years. And why on earth they chose to over process the image to sell more displays (clayface/ dynamic) is mind boggling. They should have realized that in retail stores viewing distances are 4-8' making the clayface more obvious. Thankfully I don't see it anymore on the new models. And thank god they finally decided to change the bezel design. I'm still not a fan of the new ones but they at least don't look like a fisher price product anymore. Again, I owned one and this is only my opinion :)

Ahh!!! I just realized that I am becoming a Pio fanboy after years of Panny worship!!

Seriously though, bias is human nature and it takes not just performance to change ones mind but also time. I guess my time has come :)

Cheers

Yes, I also believe Panasonic hasn't progressed as quickly, maybe to a fault. But they already have their mass market targets, and in that world PQ isn't the top billing. That said, I still think they're pretty darn good as you said. :)

Hmm..I walked into a Frys the other day and was really surprised at the latest HDTV's myself. I even looked at the LCD's (OMG..that noisy Aquos) and I have been enjoying my 8th Gen Panasonic so much lately, I just had little interest to check and I see I didn't miss much ;) . I want to see if these 8G Pio's can go up against my 500u king! :D

Myy God. Looks whos back from the dead. Hello Elemental1.

Myy God. Looks whos back from the dead. Hello Elemental1.

Hehe....hey dude....yeah....if the Pio's are all they promised....it will be my next panel. :cool:

Missed ya around here. Good to see you're back.

Missed ya around here. Good to see you're back.

Thanks!
Oh....while in Fry's, I saw the Vaporware SED display..oh no, wait that was just an Auditor dream. :p
Now THAT's a bubble bursting if I ever saw one.

Don't get me wrong, I owned a Panny ED and it was considered the best of the best when I bought it thanks to it's comparitively awesome black level. But I don't think Panny has evolved quite as fast as others, probably because it was leading the pack. I just think that the last couple of years Pio has surpased Panny in all aspects and other brand names are closing the gap as well. Panny still makes a great product but it really has not improved much in the last couple of years. And why on earth they chose to over process the image to sell more displays (clayface/ dynamic) is mind boggling. They should have realized that in retail stores viewing distances are 4-8' making the clayface more obvious. Thankfully I don't see it anymore on the new models. And thank god they finally decided to change the bezel design. I'm still not a fan of the new ones but they at least don't look like a fisher price product anymore. Again, I owned one and this is only my opinion :)

Ahh!!! I just realized that I am becoming a Pio fanboy after years of Panny worship!!

Seriously though, bias is human nature and it takes not just performance to change ones mind but also time. I guess my time has come :)

CheersSo will Johnnie B Pio; He actually owns a Sammy DLP :)

So will Johnnie B Pio; He actually owns a Sammy DLP :)

Well I actually own a Sammy DLP and a Sammy LCD. :)

I am actually waiting for the Local Dimming Samsung ironically, before making my decision on a new Pioneer Elite 1080p. After I learned about the supposed "release date" in August my waiting anxiety stopped. More incentive to wait is a blessing in disguise. So if it truly was owner bias only that ran my ticker, I'd be Samsung bias x2 and praising the ground those TVs walk on. Funny as though I might be doing that if I see the new Samsung 81 and am wowed. I love these new Pioneers but if there's a better picture I'd jump ship instantly. Band wagon jumping. :)

And Elemental?! Why'd you pull an SED on us?

Sudden Elongated Disappearence?!

"Pioneer is good but nowhere near the hype."

Uh... excuse me? You did type that correct?



Yes I did and I stand by it. By my definition, whenever performance significantly falls short of rhetoric, it's hype. Many here and in other threads have stated explicitly or implicitly that these new Pioneers outperform all other plasmas in most if not all areas in a noticable way. Nice as they are, they do not and still have their own shortcomings. Some have tempered those bold assertions by saying the Pioneers need proper lighting and/or some cal or tweak. Well duh, to get the best from the other brands I'm sure those conditions will also serve those brands as well.

This real in depth professional review makes your pre-biased observation completely irrelevant.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP4280XD/


Such a shame too, because every one was holding off on buying a Pioneer Kuro until you had completed your reports about having chats with BB staff etc. :D

...

I knew everyone was waiting tensely for my assessment :D
You guys are taking this a bit too personally. Look, there are a few others here who had similar reactions. Sorry that we all can't see things the same way :cool:
By the way, I feel silly having to say this but I like the Pioneers. I'm just not a lemming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by discopaul
So basically, don't beleive your trusty old eyes, believe what someone else tells ya
Given what you also said about getting them "ideal", well geesh, most of the top brands will look awesome given those conditions as well.



Look folks. Pay no attention to what he now tells you he claims to have seen. He said in his own post not to believe what someone else tells you. Well that means you should not believe him. He is just someone else. Why he felt the need to come back and tell us, after he had already said that what he would report should not be believed, is very very odd, and very very suspect. Your eyes have it. ;)

greenland, I saw this post in another thread. I'm not entirely clear what your point is. I have always said in my post to use your own eyes and see what set works for you.

Yes I did and I stand by it. By my definition, whenever performance significantly falls short of rhetoric, it's hype. Many here and in other threads have stated explicitly or implicitly that these new Pioneers outperform all other plasmas in most if not all areas in a noticable way. Nice as they are, they do not and still have their own shortcomings. Some have tempered those bold assertions by saying the Pioneers need proper lighting and/or some cal or tweak. Well duh, to get the best from the other brands I'm sure those conditions will also serve those brands as well.

It's nice you got all of that in one glance at a Best Buy store... jeez you really opened my mind! I mean really. Who needs to calibrate TVs before getting a truthful and honest impression? Who cares about the fact that light 'hides' a TVs black level performance? Look at all those LCDs and plasmas... they'll all look this black all the time! Heck that Sanyo LCD seems to have the best black of the bunch... and look at that BB loop! I mean does it really matter that the Best Buy feed isn't the best feed to compare TVs? HD-DVD and Blu-Ray got nothing on that feed.

So what if most TVs are drawing 'sharpness' lines to trick you into thinking it's being more true to the source? So what if you don't have a remote to even tinker with the pictures? All the TVs look equally as bad as in the store... I'll take the one that is more bright and sharp. Apparently this is the best they'll ever look.

You're right Disco. Nevermind... silly old me with my calibration talk and my need for deep blacks in a night time situation. I mean just because when I dim the lights and the Pioneer 5080 is still black and then the Samsung looks so gray... eh it's no big deal. I still got the colors right? ... Oh but wait... black levels and color saturation go hand in hand... darn, well still!! There's the sharpness!!!

Look, I tell you what I'm gonna do. I'll just tell all the home theater enthusiasts here to crank up their lights until the bulbs burn to hide the black level difference. That's what I'll do. Then we'll introduce edge enhancement so it's just as snappy and sharp as in the store! So what if we lose all the detail in HD-DVD and Blu-Ray? I want it to look "razor sharp!". Sharper than it was when the directors were workin' on it. Sharper than my sarcastic tongue!

You're right they're all hype. These TVs aren't God like those Pio fanboys said it was. I can torch my way to a good home theater picture for a lower price with the many other TVs there. And that black level? Hah... I don't notice any difference when it was in a bright store. Thanks man. You just saved me a whole lot of money. And my ignorant self is so much more happy for it.

Heh, you guys are idiots... turning off your lights and crap. What a load of hype. I'm pickin up my No-name brand LCD tommorow. Ya know the that one looked the best out of all the ones at Best Buy. The one with the blinding whites and the dyanmic colors?

I'll be picking up shades too.

It's nice you got all of that in one glance at a Best Buy store... jeez you really opened my mind! I mean really. Who needs to calibrate TVs before getting a truthful and honest impression? Who cares about the fact that light 'hides' a TVs black level performance? Look at all those LCDs and plasmas... they'll all look this black all the time! Heck that Sanyo LCD seems to have the best black of the bunch... and look at that BB loop! I mean does it really matter that the Best Buy feed isn't the best feed to compare TVs? HD-DVD and Blu-Ray got nothing on that feed.

So what if most TVs are drawing 'sharpness' lines to trick you into thinking it's being more true to the source? So what if you don't have a remote to even tinker with the pictures? All the TVs look equally as bad as in the store... I'll take the one that is more bright and sharp. Apparently this is the best they'll ever look.

You're right Disco. Nevermind... silly old me with my calibration talk and my need for deep blacks in a night time situation. I mean just because when I dim the lights and the Pioneer 5080 is still black and then the Samsung looks so gray... eh it's no big deal. I still got the colors right? ... Oh but wait... black levels and color saturation go hand in hand... darn, well still!! There's the sharpness!!!

Look, I tell you what I'm gonna do. I'll just tell all the home theater enthusiasts here to crank up their lights until the bulbs burn to hide the black level difference. That's what I'll do. Then we'll introduce edge enhancement so it's just as snappy and sharp as in the store! So what if we lose all the detail in HD-DVD and Blu-Ray? I want it to look "razor sharp!". Sharper than it was when the directors were workin' on it. Sharper than my sarcastic tongue!

You're right they're all hype. These TVs aren't God like those Pio fanboys said it was. I can torch my way to a good home theater picture for a lower price with the many other TVs there. And that black level? Hah... I don't notice any difference when it was in a bright store. Thanks man. You just saved me a whole lot of money. And my ignorant self is so much more happy for it.

Heh, you guys are idiots... turning off your lights and crap. What a load of hype. I'm pickin up my No-name brand LCD tommorow. Ya know the that one looked the best out of all the ones at Best Buy. The one with the blinding whites and the dyanmic colors?

I'll be picking up shades too.

So you finally seen the light? (pun intended) ;)

I knew everyone was waiting tensely for my assessment :D
You guys are taking this a bit too personally. Look, there are a few others here who had similar reactions. Sorry that we all can't see things the same way :cool:
By the way, I feel silly having to say this but I like the Pioneers. I'm just not a lemming.

Has nothing to do with it being personal. If I was comparing TVs or any type of electronic good the way you were doing it, I wish people would rip me too. You learn from criticism...

If you only watch TV in the bright time and you don't like to calibrate TVs, then you'll never get why Pioneers are so expensive and why people buy them. IN MY EYES and in MY DEFINITION... your comparison wasn't even a comparison. Might as well have a bag on your head and then pick which tv looked better because that's what it sounded like you did.

Form an opinion based on something done right. You should be a "lemming" when it comes to home theater basics. There's no subjectivity there. Once there.. you can test these TVs yourself. Then you can decide in a truthful and knowledgeable way that will aid people on this board.

So you finally seen the light? (pun intended) ;)

But of course!

Sanyo LCD here I come!

for those that this latest review may be of interest.here is the website of european cinemachoice mag lates review of "their" pdp-508xd which is our pdp-5080hd pioneer plasma tv: www.blog.cinemachoice.com the reviewer has a very high regards the this tv.hopes it help bring some additional info to you all.regards.god bless you all,and remember,we are still the best: the us arm forces.a personal hello to a gentleman called d-nice for me.lt ngo,us army.

Yes I did and I stand by it. By my definition, whenever performance significantly falls short of rhetoric, it's hype. Many here and in other threads have stated explicitly or implicitly that these new Pioneers outperform all other plasmas in most if not all areas in a noticable way. Nice as they are, they do not and still have their own shortcomings. Some have tempered those bold assertions by saying the Pioneers need proper lighting and/or some cal or tweak. Well duh, to get the best from the other brands I'm sure those conditions will also serve those brands as well.

Well said discopaul. These pioneer fanboys are fanatical. I see Pioneer plasma as the consumer electronics version of Apple computer. They have a cult following who swears by them. They cost significantly more than the competition for the same features. Like Apple, Pioneer has been less reliable than average much like Apple. But Apple fanboys still buy them for years on end.

In this thread I have read Pioneer fanboys saying the 7th generation Pioneer was good but not great and the 8th generation is revolutionary. I argued the Pioneers are evolutionary.

You can thank two companies for contributing to the cult following Pioneer has. Vizio has brought the price of plasmas and LCD's down dramatically across the entire product line. Panasonic has used his vast manufacturing power to apply equal pressure on lower prices for new plasmas. Pioneer still doesn't get it. These fanboys don't get it, but who cares.

The new panasonic px77u's look equally as nice as the Pioneer 5080. The only difference is price and there's no way a Pioneer 5080 is worth the significant premium. This is why the cult following for Pioneer is so strong. If Pioneer owners have to confront their diminished returns on their investment, they would feel pretty bad. To overcompensate for this feeling, they praise Pioneer plasmas much like the holy grail.

Short answer that I've given to anyone that doesn't "see much difference". You need the room to be darker. You need to calibrate the two. If you don't do either... eh, (insert broken record answer here) An in-store impression as a whole means nothing to those who want a good home theater TV. Can't anyone here attest to buying a TV expecting the blacks you saw at the store... only to go home and wonder WTF happened? Lights affects apparent darkness. Almost all TVs look suffiecently dark in daytime situations. BB is WAY more than a daytime situation.

On second thought, it's just sad that this bit of info needs to be repeated so much. Don't people like... read anymore?

This should almost be made a 'sticky'. You're right Johnny, nobody reads, nobody bothers to even scan back 2 or 3 pages in a thread. The only way I can explain it to people is that it is very much the same phenomena as LCD "blacks". They look great in a brightly lit store, but take them in to a darkened room and all of a sudden those great blacks are seriously wanting.

The same is true in reverse with the 8g Pioneers. Yes, you can see the difference in even a brightly lit store when the screen fades to black, but take these Pioneers in to a dim or dark room and you'll see an amazing difference in many scenes between it and any of the competition. Watch any dark movie and you'll see a significant difference between it and any other flat panel. If you watch a TV only in a brightly lit room, then you're a candidate for an LCD and the improvement the Pioneer brings may not be worth it to you.

Gee, you wouldn't know I complimented Pioneer from the responses. I just didn't see the revolutionary advances you guys are inclined to see. I don't live in a cave or have my plasma working only under specific lighting circumstances.
I think a good set should look at least good during most lighting conditions, and their best in the dark.

And Paul, a properly adjusted 8g Pioneer will do just that, look good under most lighting conditions and look great in a dim or dark environment. ;)

But in reading a couple of your posts, I think a Samsung may indeed be the panel for you. Doesn't make you a bad person, but just as I wouldn't go out and spend a ton of money on a super high-end audio system because I'm much more of a video guy and don't appreciate all the nuances a great audio system brings, you may just not appreciate the elements that go in to making a great picture. I've seen many people adjust their own picture to give an almost 'cartoony' look and they LOVE IT! I would not recommend a Pioneer to them either! ;)

Note: Panasonic is going the other way, 5 years ago they were the top brand name around. Now thanks to a convoluted clayface problem, very poor asthetics, and little improvement the past couple of years compared to competitors their brand name is slowly eroding. So far only slightly but they better start making strides in performance and not just price cuts. But I do thank them for helping drive down prices all over the flat panel market. Of course this is only my opinion.

Cheers

I don't think I'd agree with that characterization of Panasonic. Their aesthetics have changed markedly in the current generation. They've got the nice black bezels that everyone else has now. Although I would agree that their PQ has been a bit 'up & down' over the last couple of years, their latest panels (700, 750 series) are excellent displays and IMO, the best Panasonics ever.

Frankly, this is one of the best video reviews I have read in some time. This guy really knows his stuff. But it was also sad to read, as this is more like how The Perfect Vision (and Stereophile Guide to Home Theater) USED to do things, before they completely crapped out with their "convergence" and "mainstream product" reviews.

Rather impressive review for the Pioneer as well. I really can't wait to see the 1080P 60" Elite now.

I agree 100% Influence! I really miss those in-depth reviews we used to read in TPV. Seeing this review was so refreshing. The detail he went in to, the measurements, the care etc. etc. You could see right away this guy knew his stuff. Unfortunately he seems to be a dying breed and this is one of the reasons I believe that AVS has become more popular. Where do you get this kind of insight in to products anymore?

Yes I did and I stand by it. By my definition, whenever performance significantly falls short of rhetoric, it's hype. Many here and in other threads have stated explicitly or implicitly that these new Pioneers outperform all other plasmas in most if not all areas in a noticable way. Nice as they are, they do not and still have their own shortcomings. Some have tempered those bold assertions by saying the Pioneers need proper lighting and/or some cal or tweak. Well duh, to get the best from the other brands I'm sure those conditions will also serve those brands as well.

And when you do adjust the other brands, they fall short of the properly adjusted Pioneer. Did you read the review? ;)

BTW Paul, if I had based my entire evaluation on my first viewing of an 8g Pioneer in a brightly lit, poorly signal fed retailer, I would never have been waiting for delivery of my new Elite. That first viewing left me flat and disappointed as I clearly stated. Why? Because the feed was poor and the lighting was worse. Yes indeed, the Pioneer looked no better than most other TVs in the area.

But every subsequent viewing, under much better conditions, showed me a far different 'picture'. So a word to the wise, don't use just one retailer's location as a final assessment of what these panels can do. Seeing a panel in a Magnolia within a BB, is far different than seeing it on the main BB selling floor. It takes a little work, but man it's worth it! Oh yeah, and get the remote!

Well said discopaul. These pioneer fanboys are fanatical. I see Pioneer plasma as the consumer electronics version of Apple computer. They have a cult following who swears by them. They cost significantly more than the competition for the same features. Like Apple, Pioneer has been less reliable than average much like Apple. But Apple fanboys still buy them for years on end.



Yeah Hans, you're right! I'm now certain that the reviewer was just another one of the "Pioneer fanboys". Hey, I must be too. What, I own only Fujitsu plasmas, so how could I be a Pioneer fanboy? Not sure, but I'm betting you'll have an answer to that as well as the review below! :rolleyes:


http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP4280XD/

If you're too lazy to read this or don't want to read an objective evaluation, let me make your work just a bit easier. This from the review:

"The hype surrounding Pioneer's eighth-generation plasmas' revolutionary black level is fully justified. The Pioneer PDP4280XD is HDTVTest's current black-level champion, clocking in a minimum luminance that is more than 100% lower than that measured on our previous holder, the Panasonic TH42PH9. As a result, dynamic contrast ratio on the PDP4280XD also skyrocketed to a new record in excess of 3,000:1."

AND:

"I'm not sure if I have exhausted my vocabulary of superlatives in this review, but I'll sum it up in one sentence: the Pioneer PDP4280XD is the best flat panel television I've tested to date."


But hey Hans, what does this guy know, he's probably just another one of those 'fanboys'. :D

BTW Paul, if I had based my entire evaluation on my first viewing of an 8g Pioneer in a brightly lit, poorly signal fed retailer, I would never have been waiting for delivery of my new Elite. !

Cool. Which model/size/resolution did you order Ken?

The new panasonic px77u's look equally as nice as the Pioneer 5080. The only difference is price and there's no way a Pioneer 5080 is worth the significant premium. This is why the cult following for Pioneer is so strong. If Pioneer owners have to confront their diminished returns on their investment, they would feel pretty bad. To overcompensate for this feeling, they praise Pioneer plasmas much like the holy grail.

"Hey babe, I negotiate million dollar deals for breakfast. I think I can handle this Eurotrash." :rolleyes:

Yes I did and I stand by it. By my definition, whenever performance significantly falls short of rhetoric, it's hype. Many here and in other threads have stated explicitly or implicitly that these new Pioneers outperform all other plasmas in most if not all areas in a noticable way. Nice as they are, they do not and still have their own shortcomings. Some have tempered those bold assertions by saying the Pioneers need proper lighting and/or some cal or tweak. Well duh, to get the best from the other brands I'm sure those conditions will also serve those brands as well.

You also said the following.

Quote:
Originally Posted by discopaul
"So basically, don't beleive your trusty old eyes, believe what someone else tells ya
Given what you also said about getting them "ideal", well geesh, most of the top brands will look awesome given those conditions as well."

Since that is what you advise people to do, then they should heed it, and not believe what you, just another "someone else" tell them.

Case closed. You just are arguing with your self.

..

I don't think I'd agree with that characterization of Panasonic. Their aesthetics have changed markedly in the current generation. They've got the nice black bezels that everyone else has now. Although I would agree that their PQ has been a bit 'up & down' over the last couple of years, their latest panels (700, 750 series) are excellent displays and IMO, the best Panasonics ever.I agree with everything you said here. You just misunderstood me. I said panasonic was leading the pack by a large margin 5 years ago but failed to improve as fast as competitors and is now behind Pio and Samsung is not far behind Panny as far as brand rep. I did not say they were a crappy display but just not as worshiped as they once were. Still a great display but the worship has shifted to pio now :)

greenland, I saw this post in another thread. I'm not entirely clear what your point is. I have always said in my post to use your own eyes and see what set works for you.

So why were you rushing back breathlessly to tell us about how you had not seen the Pioneer Kuro but you had talked to two different BB employees and asked for their impressions. You posted all about what they told you. Why were you asking them about what the saw, and then told us what they told you they saw. You came on to the Pioneer Kuro discussion in a combative mode, and very proud of your Sammy. You had to be dragged kicking and screaming to admit that you had never even seen a Kuro panel at the time that you started claiming that they were overrated. What a surprise that after you finally saw one, you came to the exact same conclusion. All I am saying is. You love your Sammy. Great. No one is going to base their Pionereer evaluations on what you say about them, so why even bother. If you go back and check, you will find that I gave you that advise before you went looking for a Kuro. So which of the two conflicting BB employee remarks did you believe. LOL.

....

Cool. Which model/size/resolution did you order Ken?

Hi Rich. I'm getting the Elite version of the unit he tested for the bedroom to replace my Fujitsu. I wasn't concerned about 1080p for this application since it's only a 42" and viewing distance from my bed is about 8'. 1080p would yield nothing at that size and distance. I would have gone for a 50" there, but the wife turned thumbs down on that one! ;)

Sept will probably be the 60" Elite to replace my 50" Fujitsu unless I'm actually able to see an Aviamo (doesn't appear likely) before then. :)

They have a cult following who swears by them

And Ken Ross is the high priest of that cult. :D

I agree with everything you said here. You just misunderstood me. I said panasonic was leading the pack by a large margin 5 years ago but failed to improve as fast as competitors and is now behind Pio and Samsung is not far behind Panny as far as brand rep. I did not say they were a crappy display but just not as worshiped as they once were. Still a great display but the worship has shifted to pio now :)

Got it. Agreed.

And Ken Ross is the high priest of that cult. :D

Oh brother. How do we get rid of this troll please? A guy who's had ONLY Fujitsus and I'm the high priest of that 'cult'. Auditor, you really do have issues that only a professional can deal with. :rolleyes:

Yet you're such a Pioneer 8g expert by taking a peak at your local store? Claiming that you know how black the blacks are in a comparison that wasn't anything close to optimum? "The samsung was as good as black as the Pioneer." Is that some kind of joke?

Only arrogance would make you say such a thing. Arrogance and hyperbole seems to be a growing trend around here.

My eyes don't lie. Also, those Pioneers whites are not true whites.

Oh brother. How do we get rid of this troll please?


Stop taking the bait. ;)

My eyes don't lie.

Perhaps they do.
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP4280XD/


Oh and Auditor, please enlighten us all as to what a 'true white' is. Since calibration can yield such a thing on almost any display, please enlighten the ignorant among us. Is this something unique to your 'flexible' SED displays? :D

Stop taking the bait. ;)

You're 100% right...give me strength!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D

My eyes don't lie. Also, those Pioneers whites are not true whites.I've never seen a RGB based display that can create "true white" I've seen displays that can trick you eye by putting more blue in the whites, but it still isn't "true white". Do you know something that I do not?

And Ken Ross is the high priest of that cult. :DAt one time you said I was. When was I booted out :D

This past weekend I was finally able to see the 5080 the Elite 50" (I believe the 150), and the 42" models at BB in San Diego (Mission Valley store). The 5080 particularly blew me away with the video processing and black levels especially in the demo loop with the water waves. All the sets Panny 50 1080p and Panny 58 1080 were generating artifacts at various points in the waves, the 5080 didn't show ANY of these artifacts. I will say Pioneer has made me a fan boy but I wasn't until I started researching plasma and LCD for my first big screen purchase.

Currently, I own a 27" Panasonic CRT that has served me for 8 years and has been a great set. SO, when I started researching around late 2006. I was planning on buying the 65" Panasonic. When it came out though, I was really disappointed with the lack of stand and the lack of speakers. Anyway, I decided to wait to 2007 to buy because I was hoping the 65" would drop significantly. When CES reviews of the Pioneer Kuro came out, it immediately excited me as I thought the 65" was not as punchy as the other Panasonics and the Pio 6070. I was also excited about the Samsung 63" 1080p too. As I learned more about 3:2 pull down, SD processing, and other video features / artifacts, the Pioneer just seemed to top or be the second in EVERY category! Having said this, I wish they were cheaper as I do work for a living. But this purchase will likely be my main display for at least 5 years and I want the best I can afford today. And as money is an object to me ;) , I will decide between the 50" 1080p and 60" 1080p; and if both are out of my wife's budget :D , I will go with the 5080 as it still looks great!

David

I love these new Pioneers but if there's a better picture I'd jump ship instantly. Band wagon jumping.

You love it because you own it which means you can't be objective. You are now emotionally connected to your display. All objectivity goes out of the window.

That's how we differ, I love the technology, so therefore I can still be objective. I want to see display technology advance beyond PDP and LCD. I don't necessarily have to own a SED or an OLED display, I want one of those technologies to completely take over and do away with inferior display technologies once and for all. The 8G isn't the final frontier, so let us go where no display technology has gone before.

I've never seen a RGB based display that can create "true white" I've seen displays that can trick you eye by putting more blue in the whites, but it still isn't "true white". Do you know something that I do not?

Well maybe Pio should apply some of those tricks :)

I will say Pioneer has made me a fan boy

That's OK, just don't drink any kool aid :D

You love it because you own it which means you can't be objective. You are now emotionally connected to your display. All objectivity goes out of the window.

That's how we differ, I love the technology, so therefore I can still be objective. I want to see display technology advance beyond PDP and LCD. I don't necessarily have to own a SED or an OLED display, I want one of those technologies to completely take over and do away with inferior display technologies once and for all. The 8G isn't the final frontier, so let us go where no display technology has gone before.

Is English your native language or 2nd? Johnny has clearly stated on many occasions that he does NOT own the Pioneer and therefore has no allegience. Just like me. I give up Auditor, your are a basket case. :rolleyes:

Well maybe Pio should apply some of those tricks :)What tricks? Pioneers' are RGB displays just like SED, LCD, LCoS, DLP, and all other plasmas. Once the industry moves beyond RGB, we can talk.

...so let us go where no display technology has gone before.

Can I buy you a ticket there???? :D

You're 100% right...give me strength!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D

Here's my advice. Stop being so serious. :cool:

What tricks? Pioneers' are RGB displays just like SED, LCD, LCoS, DLP, and all other plasmas. Once the industry moves beyond RGB, we can talk.

I don't know, you tell me.

Is English your native language or 2nd? Johnny has clearly stated on many occasions that he does NOT own the Pioneer and therefore has no allegience. Just like me. I give up Auditor, your are a basket case. :rolleyes:

Did you not tell Rich that you are awaiting the Elite 1080p? Also, isn't true that he owns the Pio 5070?

Did you not tell Rich that you are awaiting the Elite 1080p? Also, isn't true that he owns the Pio 5070?
He sold his 5070. He only has the 2 Samsungs now.

I don't know, you tell me.......

Did you not tell Rich that you are awaiting the Elite 1080p? Also, isn't true that he owns the Pio 5070?

Auditor is was not ME that made the 'bandwagon' comment that you quoted. It was Johnny. Johnny does not own, nor has he ordered a Pioneer. Also consider that BEFORE I ordered the Elite, I had no Pioneer nor did I have one on order. All I own are Fujitsus. So much for this fanboy nonsense.

My eyes tell me what the best display is and I could care less who makes it or what technology it is.

He sold his 5070. He only have the 2 Samsungs now.

If he can't get his display technologies straight, how can he get his posters straight? He is mixing up Johnny with me...kinda like mixing up SED with OLED. :D

You also said the following.

Quote:
Originally Posted by discopaul
"So basically, don't beleive your trusty old eyes, believe what someone else tells ya
Given what you also said about getting them "ideal", well geesh, most of the top brands will look awesome given those conditions as well."

Since that is what you advise people to do, then they should heed it, and not believe what you, just another "someone else" tell them.

Case closed. You just are arguing with your self.

..

Actually, I was engaging in sarcasm. I was responding to a previous post and you have lost context (which parallels your Pioneer fanaticism).
Look, go and enjoy your Pioneer. To some of us though it's not the standard by which all others should be judged. I wonder though, is some of this over-reaction due to a subconscious belief that the Pioneers really aren't that great :cool:

Look, go and enjoy your Pioneer. To some of us though it's not the standard by which all others should be judged.
Then why are you here?
:rolleyes:

Then why are you here?
:rolleyes:

Does the subject header suggest this thread is just for the Pioneer kool-aid drinkers?

And Elemental?! Why'd you pull an SED on us?

Sudden Elongated Disappearence?!

LOL.....hehe..yeah plus I think Auditor has taken more than one blue pill. ;)
So...no more Pio 5070?
I will have to catch up reading why you sold it.
No plans for the 8G Pio?

Hi Rich. I'm getting the Elite version of the unit he tested for the bedroom to replace my Fujitsu. I wasn't concerned about 1080p for this application since it's only a 42" and viewing distance from my bed is about 8'. 1080p would yield nothing at that size and distance. I would have gone for a 50" there, but the wife turned thumbs down on that one! ;)

Sept will probably be the 60" Elite to replace my 50" Fujitsu unless I'm actually able to see an Aviamo (doesn't appear likely) before then. :)

Nice. From what I've seen the new Pioneers are killer.

And when you do adjust the other brands, they fall short of the properly adjusted Pioneer. Did you read the review? ;)

BTW Paul, if I had based my entire evaluation on my first viewing of an 8g Pioneer in a brightly lit, poorly signal fed retailer, I would never have been waiting for delivery of my new Elite. That first viewing left me flat and disappointed as I clearly stated. Why? Because the feed was poor and the lighting was worse. Yes indeed, the Pioneer looked no better than most other TVs in the area.

But every subsequent viewing, under much better conditions, showed me a far different 'picture'. So a word to the wise, don't use just one retailer's location as a final assessment of what these panels can do. Seeing a panel in a Magnolia within a BB, is far different than seeing it on the main BB selling floor. It takes a little work, but man it's worth it! Oh yeah, and get the remote!

And on what basis are you making the assertion that when properly adjusted, other top brands will fall short?
As for the feed, all the sets receive the same feed. Do you mean to imply that unless the feed is pristine, the Pioneers can't work as well as others? The same queston applies to lighting.
Oh, and yes I have seen Elite panels in the Magnolia showroom. In fact it was seeing a Samsung next to an Elite in this showroom that sold me on the Samsung :cool:
BTW, my home theater while not overly expensive, is fine for that. Polk and Velodyne speakers along with a H/K AV receiver work very well. Even you'd like it :)

Polk, Velodyne, and H/K...I'll pass on that combo.

Interesting comments guys. I'm no pio fan, but their latest offerings have me sold.
I still can't get over the fact that folks are using the 5080/4280 (which are still nice) to
represent the entire new 8G line. Yet, even in that review/article posted earlier (by
someone that doesn't appear to be big on Pioneer) the guy mentioned the following
about the 4280:
I've even seriously considered keeping it as a point of reference for all my future reviews.
Not bad! I can't wait for the Elite 1080P's. The big test will be hooking up my Wii to
check out the processing abilities. I've said this enough times, but I am stoked to have
finally found a replacement for my 40" XBR CRT HDTV. :)

Anyhow, If there's one thing going against the Pioneers, though, it's the price,
particularly the MSRP.

Polk, Velodyne, and H/K...I'll pass on that combo.

:D And Samsung!

Anyhow, If there's one thing going against the Pioneers, though, it's the price,
particularly the MSRP.Yep...and when you look at it's only competition (Samsung 81 series), the price is a wash.

Polk, Velodyne, and H/K...I'll pass on that combo.
Of course you would :cool:

:D And Samsung!
Yes. And it's a beautiful thing :cool:

Ken Ross: How do you think the Fujitsu 65-inch Aviamo will stack up against the G8 Pioneer 60-inch?

Will Pioneer put the Aviamo in the toilet like it does everything else?

Of course you would :cool:I said combo. Individual items are a different thing.

And on what basis are you making the assertion that when properly adjusted, other top brands will fall short?
As for the feed, all the sets receive the same feed. Do you mean to imply that unless the feed is pristine, the Pioneers can't work as well as others? The same queston applies to lighting.
Oh, and yes I have seen Elite panels in the Magnolia showroom. In fact it was seeing a Samsung next to an Elite in this showroom that sold me on the Samsung :cool:
BTW, my home theater while not overly expensive, is fine for that. Polk and Velodyne speakers along with a H/K AV receiver work very well. Even you'd like it :)

No you ignoramous.

1) The BB feed is bad. Hence the ones that show it for it's "true" picture will look off. Feed a calibrated display crap... it'll show you crap. That's called accuracy. Feed a torched display crap... and it'll try to make it look like brighter crap. Which some people call that sharp and lively. Turn the Pioneer on dynamic and I bet you'd love the picture as I said.

2) Your the kind of guy who mistakes 'sharpness' w/ edge enhancement.

3) You said it yourself. The Pioneer was a fine TV in daytime as well... most hi-end TVs will look pretty good with some light. I'm fine with both the digital TVs I own w/ some light. When I get bothered is when I turn the lights off. That's when the best TVs beat out the other 'good' ones.

When all TV sets are calibrated. (Cleary not by you) And we turn off the lights. The Pioneer is peerless at the moment. So like I said... if you don't need it. Fine. Some of us do.

Until that local dimming TV comes out apparently, the options are small. Here do us a favor Disco. Go read up on home theater. It'd be really nice if you knew a little bit about it before you try to discuss it.

http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/tips-on-buying-a-new-flat-panel-tv.pdf

There's colors and pictures for you and everything!

LOL.....hehe..yeah plus I think Auditor has taken more than one blue pill. ;)
So...no more Pio 5070?
I will have to catch up reading why you sold it.
No plans for the 8G Pio?

Saw the 5080 and sold it. And then... now I'm waiting for either an Elite 1080p or Samsungs local dimming offering.

Yes, I don't own a Pioneer at the moment. If anyone would like to give me one free... and then call me bias then I'd be glad to take that deal though.

Only arrogance would make you say such a thing. Arrogance and hyperbole seems to be a growing trend around here.

My eyes don't lie. Also, those Pioneers whites are not true whites.

No only experience and logic (something a few of you lack) tells me otherwise. Samsung plasmas aren't even as good as Panasonic Plasmas at black... let alone as good as something that's 100 percent darker.

I can deal with Pioneer haters. I just can't take Pioneer haters that have no idea what they're talking about. Judging black levels in a lighted condition, and then expecting something that's impossible. That's stupid no matter what TV brand or TV tech you worship.

I dunno. But I'm done. It's been fun. But talking to brick walls isn't going to change anything apparently.

Saw the 5080 and sold it. And then... now I'm waiting for either an Elite 1080p or Samsungs local dimming offering.

Yes, I don't own a Pioneer at the moment. If anyone would like to give me one free... and then call me bias then I'd be glad to take that deal though.I'm still worried about number of zones the 81 series will have. It also seems as if they will add more zones in the future. Kinda makes you wonder if purchasing the 81 series is a wise decision. I remember when the first LED based DLPs from Samsung came out.....will not even comment on those.

I'm still worried about number of zones the 81 series will have. It also seems as if they will add more zones in the future. Kinda makes you wonder if purchasing the 81 series is a wise decision. I remember when the first LED based DLPs from Samsung came out.....will not even comment on those.

Mhmm, I know, I will look for a long while before I make a decision.

In the dark and with a remote. Or I'll just do the clueless way and close my eyes and run around store mumbling "Me love flat panel TV! Sooo big and bright!"

In the dark and with a remote. Or I'll just do the clueless way and close my eyes and run around store mumbling "Me love flat panel TV! Sooo big and bright!"Classic

Yep...and when you look at it's only competition (Samsung 81 series), the price is a wash.

Has Samsung released the MSRP for the 81 series?

Has Samsung released the MSRP for the 81 series?
Yes

And for those wondering...
http://www.engadgethd.com/category/lcd/

"Samsung's finally launching its 71 and 81 series 1080p LCD HDTVs -- let's cut to the chase. The 71 series features Auto Motion Plus (i.e. 120Hz) 25,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio, CCFL backlight, three HDMI 1.3 ports, CEC HDMI, USB, ATSC / clear QAM tuner, 8ms response time, and lands next month in 40, 46, and 52-inch sizes (for $2700, $3400, and $4400).

The 81 series ups the ante with an LED backlight, bumping the contrast ratio to a measly 100,000:1, and also comes with 10-bit processing, 8ms response time, an ATSC / clear QAM tuner, CEC HDMI, USB, and also lands in August in 40, 46, 52, and 57-inch sizes( for $3000, $4000, $5000, and $7000, respectively)."

You're right D-Nice...it will be the premium Plasma vs the premium LCD in August.

Side note: 2 grand more for 57" as opposed to the 52" on the 81 series...ouch.

No you ignoramous.

1) The BB feed is bad. Hence the ones that show it for it's "true" picture will look off. Feed a calibrated display crap... it'll show you crap. That's called accuracy. Feed a torched display crap... and it'll try to make it look like brighter crap. Which some people call that sharp and lively. Turn the Pioneer on dynamic and I bet you'd love the picture as I said.

2) Your the kind of guy who mistakes 'sharpness' w/ edge enhancement.

3) You said it yourself. The Pioneer was a fine TV in daytime as well... most hi-end TVs will look pretty good with some light. I'm fine with both the digital TVs I own w/ some light. When I get bothered is when I turn the lights off. That's when the best TVs beat out the other 'good' ones.

When all TV sets are calibrated. (Cleary not by you) And we turn off the lights. The Pioneer is peerless at the moment. So like I said... if you don't need it. Fine. Some of us do.

Until that local dimming TV comes out apparently, the options are small. Here do us a favor Disco. Go read up on home theater. It'd be really nice if you knew a little bit about it before you try to discuss it.

http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/tips-on-buying-a-new-flat-panel-tv.pdf

There's colors and pictures for you and everything!
Thou dost protest too much

Never the less, what does it mean when one engages in a discussion with an "ignoramous"?

1 - All BB feeds aren't necessarily bad. Certainly no worse some HD cable feeds. As for the rest of that babble, well I'm not sure what to make of it.

2 - I thought there was a relationship between sharpness and edge enhancement. Perhaps you can share your knowledge and enlighten me.

3 - Again, I assume you've had in your possesion as a minimum, 4 or 5 top brand plasmas, calibrated, and in that minimum controlled light condition you prefer. At that point you made the conclusion you are asserting here.

As for my AV knowledge, feel free to inform me with supported facts, not hyperbole and fanatacism.

I'm still worried about number of zones the 81 series will have. It also seems as if they will add more zones in the future. Kinda makes you wonder if purchasing the 81 series is a wise decision. I remember when the first LED based DLPs from Samsung came out.....will not even comment on those.

I'm also concerned because the local dimming is grid based which could cause uneven brightness and colors. I've tried to research how small those areas are but I don't have any info, maybe someone has a link. The other thing that I don't like is the 8ms response time which could be bad for fast frame video games. However, these are only my speculations and I will not sell anything off until I've seen them in person. I'll have the opportunity to see both, side-by-side, in October.

Thou dost protest too much

Never the less, what does it mean when one engages in a discussion with an "ignoramous"?

1 - All BB feeds aren't necessarily bad. Certainly no worse some HD cable feeds. As for the rest of that babble, well I'm not sure what to make of it.

2 - I thought there was a relationship between sharpness and edge enhancement. Perhaps you can share your knowledge and enlighten me.

3 - Again, I assume you've had in your possesion as a minimum, 4 or 5 top brand plasmas, calibrated, and in that minimum controlled light condition you prefer. At that point you made the conclusion you are asserting here.

As for my AV knowledge, feel free to inform me with supported facts, not hyperbole and fanatacism.

1 - If these convos have made me think anything it is to not trust your idea what's bad or good. Those BB feeds suck pure and simple, beyond maybe a movie trailer here and there. And I don't know what you're watching but my HDTV feeds look plenty better for the most part. The more calibrated pictures are just showing the feeds for what they are... not optimal.

2 - Bad TVs need edge enhancements to look sharp. Good TVs don't. People that can't tell the difference... that's their blessing or problem. Many people mistake alot of edge enhancement for sharpness (the equivalent is bumping up your sharpness control on the Pioneer). Samsung's processing usually out of the box incorporate what's called DNiE, which I turn off on Samsung DLP TV and have to live with on my Samsung LCD because it screws up the picture due to edge enhancement... noticeable especially on text. My Samsung LCD out of the box was 50 at sharpness... my DLP at 25. After calibration both are now at 0.... 0.

I noticed on Pioneer Elites the Sharpness was at negative 14... and I think RPNYC said something about it being that low as well. I don't believe he's changed it that much and it's a razor sharp calibrated picture... not as 'sharp' as say a Samsung w/ edge enhancement, but the finer details won't be destroyed and you won't get any unwanted artifacts.

There was a thread earlier about 'fuzzy' Panasonic vs. razor sharp Vizio. Guess what my opinion on that comparison is. This by no means is just a Pioneer deal. It's a natural true picture vs. mega enhancenced picture. If you prefer the later... may I suggest you put the Pioneer in ugly dynamic mode and then make your decision. Sure, it'll be worthless to us who appreciate accuracy... but what the hey? Who cares about standards.

3 - Not 4 or 5 plasmas, but at the time of my shopping 4 or 5 different TVs yes. Yes I checked out a Panasonic 9uk at a friends (this would have been my second choice), owned 2 (Westy past, Samsung now) LCDs, own a Sammy DLP Rear Projection, watched an LCOS Sony at a friends, an older Samsung plasma (two of which are now hanging at the work store), and of course ended up with a 5070 (which is now sold.). All in the dark, remote in hand, feeding it HD-DVD or Blu-Ray... or in one instance alot of WMV HD trailers and 1080p Quicktime movie trailers. I never walked into the store and trusted one isolated impression... that's not wise nor is it fair. Especially when I'm not going to be watching TV in that lighting situation.

As for your AV knowledge... go read my link and for get my sarcastic ******* statements. We're done with the conversation. You know how I feel about your comparison. I know how you feel about what I feel.

So let's stop er feeling eachother... Hah! Happy flat panel trails.

Actually, I was engaging in sarcasm. I was responding to a previous post and you have lost context (which parallels your Pioneer fanaticism).
Look, go and enjoy your Pioneer. To some of us though it's not the standard by which all others should be judged. I wonder though, is some of this over-reaction due to a subconscious belief that the Pioneers really aren't that great :cool:

OK. I will keep it simple for a simpleton such as yourself. You set a standard, in your own words, that people should not heed what others say, and should rely on what they see with their own eyes. That means that you should not be wasting our time with any more of your comments and observations, since by your own rules, no one should heed what you say or claim to have seen. The really strange thing about your rule is, you never follow it. You wrote a recent post to tell us all about what you heard about the Pioneer Kuros from two BB employees. So, according to you, people should not pay any attention to what other people say about Pioneers, but they should listen to what you have to say about what two BB employees told you that they saw. What a Maroon!. :rolleyes:

This thread needs to die and be shutdown.

Johnny, about the vizio vs panny comments. I also felt at magnolia the 58 incher panny 600u looked noticable more sharp, pop, compared to the elite next to it. I got to play with the remote and had to turn the sharpness all the way down, crazy.. Now the vizio has pop, resoultion, brightness galore, but it's not from being overly sharp imo. Even though i turn the sharpness all the way down at times, pristine dvd's i turn the sharpness up, it can handle it, it's still not too sharp. It's possible to have a punchy bright picture with pop that is not to sharp. I do notice though you will see more noise in the picture though.

In 18 days, this thread has logged 37,000 views. If that doesn't describe fanaticism, I don't know what does. Pioneer has a true cult following that is unjustified.

In 18 days, this thread has logged 37,000 views. If that doesn't describe fanaticism, I don't know what does. Pioneer has a true cult following that is unjustified.

Agreed. though I must admit to being afflicted with this sort of fanaticism when it comes to Klipschorns even though I own Magnepans for my serious hi-fi listening :o

In 18 days, this thread has logged 37,000 views. If that doesn't describe fanaticism, I don't know what does. Pioneer has a true cult following that is unjustified.

Yaaay unjustified! Woohoo!

Onto more important news!

Zues, I can agree. I don't know for sure about ya know Vizio and the sharpness, they're probably still sharp w/o the edge enhancement. But I do know from all the Panny's I've see that they're far from "fuzzy". The only logical explanation is the guy had a defective plasma. Or he doesn't know what he's doing and enjoys really artificially enhanced pictures.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So is ugliness.

In 18 days, this thread has logged 37,000 views. If that doesn't describe fanaticism, I don't know what does. Pioneer has a true cult following that is unjustified.
Then go away and stop helping to justify the fanaticism. ;)
I want to buy a really good 50" plasma. I learn from the pro and con discussion on Pioneers versus Panasonics versus other brands and LCDs. I want to hear from fanatics, objectives, pessimists and haters. All add to my knowledge base.

Then go away and stop helping to justify the fanaticism. ;)
I want to buy a really good 50" plasma. I learn from the pro and con discussion on Pioneers versus Panasonics versus other brands and LCDs. I want to hear from fanatics, objectives, pessimists and haters. All add to my knowledge base.


Absolutley agree. If you go by just owners threads everyone will have you believe they are the greatest ;) But then the problem is who do you listen to when arguments go back and forth? It's the greatest, no it's not, yes it is, etc etc... For me i dont care what anyone says, i judge for myself :o Some people act like this is rocket science.

Then go away and stop helping to justify the fanaticism. ;)
I want to buy a really good 50" plasma. I learn from the pro and con discussion on Pioneers versus Panasonics versus other brands and LCDs. I want to hear from fanatics, objectives, pessimists and haters. All add to my knowledge base.

Wow smartest things typed on this thread. See it's not all to waste... :) Live and learn James.

I think the Pioneer Fan Club has just had huge spike in membership lately, and you ain't seen nuthin yet!!! Just wait until the real SED KILLERS arrive in Sept.!!:D

The force is strong with the pioneer alliance. :o But it could be the dark side of the force, i havent decided yet :)

The force is strong with the pioneer alliance. :o But it could be the dark side of the force, i havent decided yet :)

What are you trying to say? ;)

The force is strong with the pioneer alliance. :o But it could be the dark side of the force, i havent decided yet :)

Yes, Dark=Black=Kuro

In 18 days, this thread has logged 37,000 views. If that doesn't describe fanaticism, I don't know what does. Pioneer has a true cult following that is unjustified.

Fanaticism? NO!! It's become *THE* general thread to discuss the pros and cons of
the KURO. You hate it? Fine, go ahead and whine, but you better properly back it up.
You love it, go crazy, but the same applies to you. You make it sound like this is a
thread full of love or something. There are lots of both positive and negative posts
about the KURO (aka 5080/4280).

What I don't understand is how folks have a problem with rebuttals. You guys make
it sound like you're opinion is the word of law or something. To the guys who aren't
impressed, explain what *YOU* would LIKE to see that is missing. Don't just say
stuff like "I don't see a difference". Here's the truth about HDTVs displays in stores:
They all look the same a good 80% of the time!! What I've learned is that slight
variance in the store environment is *HUGE* in the home.

Now, I'm going to hit on one subject: Is the 4280/5080's price justified? Well,
considering that they look just as good if not better than their 1080P counterparts
at normal viewing distances, sure. However, the fact that they're not 1080P will
be a pill that's hard for the feature-minded person to swallow. Bearing all that in
mind, you should be concerning yourself with TV's that have a questionable price
premium: the 1080P Kuro's. That will be when the true DRAMA here at AVS will
start. I can imagine the insanity that will explode if they are marginally better. But
then again, we're dealing with 2007 where there are so many fantastic HDTVs with
excellent picture already. It'll be very hard to stand out if you ask me. However,
what these TV's do for me is virtually eliminate all of the negatives of flat panel
televisions, which I feel is more important.

Fanaticism? NO!! It's become *THE* general thread to discuss the pros and cons of
the KURO. You hate it? Fine, go ahead and whine, but you better properly back it up.

I don't recall Hans or any other non-fanatic here saying we hate the Pioneers. It's when those of us who write the "cons" and refuse to genuflect at the pioneer alter that you fanatics go crazy. Kinda like "you're with me or you're my enemy" :D :cool:

In 18 days, this thread has logged 37,000 views. If that doesn't describe fanaticism, I don't know what does. Pioneer has a true cult following that is unjustified.

You are the one who keeps coming on to a Pioneer thread to brag about your Panasonic Plasma. Look in the Mirror if you really want to see a true fanatic. :D

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