A guy @avforums bought a new PioG8, and compared it next to his
"old" Panasonic PH8D, a commercial screen. Very interesting read;


So just set up both screens in the room with the curtains drawn and the results were pretty surprising.

Where shall I start??

Using the Sky HD box only, hooked up YUV into the Panasonic PHD8 and HDMI into the Pioneer.


Overall Luminance.

The Panasonic straight out of the box is not the brightest of screens, however after calibrating the Panny there is not a great deal in it between overall brightness, the Pioneer does have a whiter white though, but you won't notice it is much brighter unless you saw them next to each other.


Colour.
Straight away the Pioneer looks more colourful, however it does not look as natural, I was messing around for a good 10 minutes trying to get the Pioneer to look as good as the Panny and couldn't. Think I need to get the coloromitor out and have another bash.

Detail.
This was probably the biggest surprise of the lot, the Panasonic is so much sharper, doesn't matter what you do setting wise the Pioneer smooth over very fine detail, you loose all the pores on some ones face on close ups, on return Of The Jedi there are so many areas where this is obvious, you can see loads of detail on a meteorite on the PHD8 but they are lost on the Pioneer.
You would have to see them next to each other to be able to see what is missing, when the Panny is off you would not be disappointed with the Pioneer.

Motion.
To be honest there is nothing in it, both are excellent.

Black Levels.
The Panasonic is the winner here, by the time you release the same detail on both the Pioneer is the lighter of the two, I really wasn't expecting that!!!!
The PH range has a much better black and detail retrieval than the Viera range and so does the Pioneer, but to get the Pio to match the Panasonic for absolute black you are crushing detail. This to me wouldn't be a problem and the difference is not much at all, but it is there and easy to see when they are next to each other.
I would always take a slightly crushed black that is black than a dark grey with all the detail there.


I will not be swapping my 42PHD8 for the Pioneer, the idea was to put the pioneer in the PHD spot and move that to the other room, however the Pioneer will now become the second set.
if I had seen them side by side before buying I would have bought another PH Panasonic and save £900.
C'est La Vie!

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=544315&page=29

Later on he posted some comparison pics;

Below the Pioneer;
http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/vs/vs4.jpg

Panny
http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/vs/rockpanny.jpg

Pio
http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/vs/rockpio.jpg

http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/vs/vs3.jpg

More pics in the thread.

I've been looking at the new Pioneer models frequently at my Best Buy and I can tell you that those black levels in the picture are not accurate. His testimony contradicts the several thousand posts on here supporting the superior black levels of the 8G line.

I never trust photos, I believe my own eyes. There is no comparison in overall picture quality between the Pioneer and the Panasonic, the pioneer wins hands down! :rolleyes: The title of this thread indicates that it was only meant to inflame emotions and incite controversy.

That doesn't even look like the Pioneer 8g.... notice the black bars on the top and bottom. The 8g Pioneers BLEND right into the bezel. That looks more like the 7g. .. if not a little worse. And the guy loves his Panasonic. No crime there.

But if that's the 8g, this guy really knows how to screw up a good black level.

And all the other stuff he posted? Meh. Here we go again.

I'll go buy a Maxent and do a compare and contrast. Those colors look "realistic" to me!

BTW... Transformers kicked ass!!!!!

I've yet to see a Panasonic out-do a Pioneer. Im not saying the Panny's are bad TV's, I may own one soon. But the says still holds, "It's not a Pioneer, but it isn't bad".

I've yet to see a Panasonic out-do a Pioneer. Im not saying the Panny's are bad TV's, I may own one soon. But the says still holds, "It's not a Pioneer, but it isn't bad".

Don't tell that to Panasonic people. This has to be one of the most misleading 'comparisons" I've seen... ever. And I do mean EVER. Hopefully for the guy's credibility that he got 'ripped off' into buying a previous gen Pioneer.

I'll probably be buying a Panny. I just cant afford a Pioneer in contrast to the deal Im getting on the Panny:D

I'll probably be buying a Panny. I just cant afford a Pioneer in contrast to the deal Im getting on the Panny:D

And there's nothing wrong with that at all.

Not sure the 8G pioneers have actually reached the UK yet, but I may be wrong. Perhaps this is the 7G model? I don't think the person who did the comparison has a Panasonic bias--after all, he was hoping the Pioneer would be better so he could replace his old Panasonic. However, there may be some confusion here regarding models. He's even using a Panasonic 8G, which is not as good as the 9G model in terms of black levels. Hmmm.

EDIT: Just checked the UK site, and they do indeed have the 8G Pioneers. Interesting reading, overall positive though more mixed reviews than on this forum.

That doesn't even look like the Pioneer 8g.... notice the black bars on the top and bottom.

Read what he wrote;

"by the time you release the same detail on both the Pioneer is the lighter of the two"

So i think the Pio can produce deeper blacks as we can see on the pic, but at the cost of black crush. He upped the brightness to reveal the same shadowdetail as on the Panny.

I think it's not the queston that the Pio can produce deeper blacks, but at the cost of crushing the black detail. And that's the point me and other people didn't expect (and is dissapointing).

I just did a fairly detailed comparison...and felt the Panny was flat and boring compared to the Pioneer. Pioneer had more natural color, especially skin tones..and the extra contrast provided a picture with more depth.

This was the 75 series Panny vs the 4280 Pioneer....perhaps Panny will have a better go with some of their newer offerings.

"
I think it's not the queston that the Pio can produce deeper blacks, but at the cost of crushing the black detail. And that's the point me and other people didn't expect (and is dissapointing).

Those pictures are pretty accurate representation of calibrated 8G. Yes, you can turn the brightness down to achieve better black level, but that comes at the cost of shadow detail. 8G is just like an lcd in that matter. I'm not saying that 8G is a bad plasma, but it's not leaps and bounds better(if any) than Panasonic.

I've checked out a lot of the newer panny panels, and even some of the Professional
ones, and none have even come close to the 8G. Every single one of them seemed
to dull the picture whenever they attempted to reproduce dark/black images on it.
I've also seen the PZ700, PX75, and PX77's beside each other and beside the 8G Pio
and it was seriously no contest. Even the 7G pio gave the sets a run for the money,
which kinda surprised me. Heck, the new PZ700 & PX77 look better than the "professional"
pannys, and yet those two TV's have a hard time keeping up with the older 7G panel
even (PZ700, however has a less screen-door effect which does go in its favour...but
for colours/blacks... still iffy). Ahh well... whatever.

Some of these Pio-Panny comparison comments repeat long-standing differences of opinion, with each side making reasonable arguments. What is new in the equation this time around is the deeper blacks of the Pioneer--so the real question is, do these deeper blacks come at some expense in terms of shadow detail? I hope not (would like to get one of these), but would not be surprised if this is the case.

I just came back from my local AV shop, and i honestly can't see what makes the pioneer much better than other plasma's, what is saw was the same as the pictures above. This was a 4280 and i wasn't impressed. There was a 6070 right next to it and the picture quality was the same.

Well guys it was me, the photos were quick snaps and I was talking about my 'initial impressions'..... nothing more.

But I am still standing by my first view and at the moment the PHD8 has the better overall image.

I just took back my PX70 (same as your PX77) and you can't compare the black levels on that with the Panny 42PHD8, the blacks on the 42PHD8 are in a different league.

To be fair though I have not calibrated the Pioneer yet, but I still believe that the Panny 8 series (commercial as well, not consumer) are just as black when you set them up properly. The Pioneer has much deeper blacks than the consumer panasonics though, which also hate having lights reflecting on them and make them look flat and washed out, so going into best buy the winner will be very clear.

I am waiting for the digital fizz to calm down before giving any further comment, at the moment it looks like it is alive with bright areas on screen, but sure this will go.

Those screen shots were just to show a quick comparison between the two, nothing more, the camera makes the difference seem far more than it is when in the room with them both.


I have tried to take some more screen shots again today, but just not having any joy and can't take any that do it justice.

These shots of the Panny I took a month or so ago and I set the colour balance manually so what I saw on the screen is what I saw in the picture.

http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/colour%201.jpg

http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/phd8%202.jpg


Look guys, no offence here, but these Pioneers are not cheap over here, the 42" is $3600 compared with $1600 for the Panasonic panel, so believe me when I say I will love this screen in the end!! :) It may just take a while.

That doesn't even look like the Pioneer 8g.... notice the black bars on the top and bottom. The 8g Pioneers BLEND right into the bezel. That looks more like the 7g. .. if not a little worse. And the guy loves his Panasonic. No crime there.

But if that's the 8g, this guy really knows how to screw up a good black level.

And all the other stuff he posted? Meh. Here we go again.

I'll go buy a Maxent and do a compare and contrast. Those colors look "realistic" to me!

BTW... Transformers kicked ass!!!!!

Hi Usa from England, I have a 4280 and have a 508XD due to arrive next week.
The specs here are a little different.

I have spoken to the chap who posted the above and he is cool and knows his stuff, it is a 428XD.

I found his results strange also. He has a PH8, probably the best set that Panasonic have ever produced (In the UK at least). I have in my house a Pio 434, Pio 507 a Pana PX70 and a Pana PH10. (PX70 & PH10 for a gym installation).

The New PH10's are not a patch on the PH8's thats why over here no one has an changed from an 8 to a 9 or a 10.

The 4280 goes far blacker than any of the others, is sharper, has the most accurate colours I have seen and has the best processing and motion handling I have seen here in the UK.

Since those pictures the settings he has have now become almost identicle to mine and he is far happier and he realises that there is some calibration needed but like me he is gonna get 500 hours on it first.

The Panas always have a green push to them and I think it makes the image very "metalic" looking.

One reason for the the initial look is this. Red and blue decay quicker than green and Pioneer realise this, within the first 100 hours or so the red and blues are over sensative, then decay to the level of the green, then the set runs for 30/40/50 thousand hours before the panel starts to decay.

So what you see is an A/B with a well run in PH8 vs a brand new 428. Even after a day he says it is now settling and his wife thinks the Pio is better.

My 4280 is awesome and I cant wait to replace my 507 for the 508.

Have a nice day

This is really getting interesting. I was always under the impression that the 9th generation Panasonic commercial plasmas had SLIGHTLY better blacks than the 8th generation, but who knows. This is the first I've heard that the 8th generation commercial was the best Panny plasma ever and they have gotten worse...

This is really getting interesting. I was always under the impression that the 9th generation Panasonic commercial plasmas had SLIGHTLY better blacks than the 8th generation, but who knows. This is the first I've heard that the 8th generation commercial was the best Panny plasma ever and they have gotten worse...

I have installed 20 PH9's at the Star Wars 30th anniversary exhibition over here, they are in almost black rooms and I can tell you that I'm not as impressed as I once was, and the PH10 I have here is nowhere as dark as the Pio

Overall contrast ratio is definitely up as the 9th and 10th gen Panny screens are definitely brighter, but absolute black on the PH8 is the best imo, however you have to live with the floating black level to achieve this and for a lot of people that is not an option.
The PH9 and 10 has a black level similar to the 7 and 8 series with the floating black level option turned off, so not quite as black but a stable picture.

To be fair though, the black levels are not a problem for me, they are as good as you need even on the PH9/10, it is the lack of fine detail that seems to be missing at the moment that is the thing that is annoying me with the Pioneer. I am hoping as the pixels calm down that will start to come through.

Panny 8 series (commercial as well, not consumer) are just as black when you set them up properly. The Pioneer has much deeper blacks than the consumer panasonics though, which also hate having lights reflecting on them and make them look flat and washed out, so going into best buy the winner will be very clear.This statement is flawing and incorrect in many ways. One, there is no difference in glass between the commercial Panasonics and consumer Panasonics. You can verify this by going to Panasonic's website and pull up the replacement part numbers.

Your perception of blacks is very intriguing. Tell you what, if you can measure your 8 series Panasonic minimum luminance levels to be exactly the same or lower than a properly calibrate 8G Pioneer, I will gladly purchase you a plasma of your choice (up to 65" in size) in any country you want.

^^^^^^
Looks like gizlaroc is getting himself a new plasma for free.

This is really getting interesting. I was always under the impression that the 9th generation Panasonic commercial plasmas had SLIGHTLY better blacks than the 8th generation, but who knows. This is the first I've heard that the 8th generation commercial was the best Panny plasma ever and they have gotten worse...

8th gen commercial was the same screen as used in the PX500. A couple of months back i saw a PX500 next to a newer PX60 and the "old" 500 smoked the PX60 in the black detail aspect (not deeper blacks but far more shadow detail). It was smoking every screen in the shop in that aspect incl. the G7 Pio's.

What the hell Panasonic is doing since that good old generation is beyond me, it must be a big cost saver or something to drop some of that shadow detail performance. :rolleyes:

8th gen commercial was the same screen as used in the PX500. A couple of months back i saw a PX500 next to a newer PX60 and the "old" 500 smoked the PX60 in the black detail aspect (not deeper blacks but far more shadow detail). It was smoking every screen in the shop in that aspect incl. the G7 Pio's.

What the hell Panasonic is doing since that good old generation is beyond me, it must be a big cost saver or something to drop some of that shadow detail performance. :rolleyes:


My point exactly

^^^^^^
Looks like gizlaroc is getting himself a new plasma for free.Hello sampo. I see you've slivered your way back onto AVS. Nice first post cover-up too ;)

What the hell Panasonic is doing since that good old generation is beyond me, it must be a big cost saver or something to drop some of that shadow detail performance. :rolleyes:

Gizlarock's argument suggests that there was a trade off in fixing the "floating blacks" issue--better blacks (or at least better shadow detail?) also had floating blacks, fixing the problem came with a trade-off. Not sure if this is actually true, but that is the theory anyway. Sounds plausible, I suppose.

I've been looking at the new Pioneer models frequently at my Best Buy and I can tell you that those black levels in the picture are not accurate. His testimony contradicts the several thousand posts on here supporting the superior black levels of the 8G line.

I'm starting to think some to these 8g pioneers are not created equal. I went to the Best Buy in Frisco, TX. They have the 5080 setup on display with the remote. No matter how much I played with the settings, I couldn't get the picture as sharp as the 9g Panasonics. I was there for over an hour playing with the settings. Now yes the black levels where better on the 5080, but NOT that much better, I was truley disappointed with what I saw. And so was everyone else that came to see this plasma, even the BB employees who was anticipating this TV expressed how they was let down with it.

I decided to visit the Best Buy in Plano, TX (about 25 mins away). They also had the 5080 setup on display (no remote). I was blown away by the picture. The picture was very sharp and the display almost looked 3D. The black levels was so black that I could barely tell the difference between it and the bezel. I couldn't believe this was the same tv I was looking at at the BB Frisco store. Go figure.

Fellas fellas fellas. Black crush is this...

Black crush is a sets inability to show shadow detail once OIRE black is set 'correctly' on the set. Once you take off any black corrector and set gamma correctly you should be fine. Now based on those pictures... then those are NOT the 8g sets. The black bars for one are way too bright.

In all accounts, all three 5080s I've seen had black bars that matched the bezel in dim situations. If the black bars in the picture look even a bit gray, I question that 'impression' instantly. And I'll say it once and I say it again... how much better the blacks is subjective.

But no one in their right mind would watch both plasmas in the dark and say it's 'not that much better'. In a bright store in bright lights? Yes.. not much better. In a dark situation? A ton better.

I am sure the guy with impressions isn't trying to a pull a bs comparison... but something smells a little fishy. And it ain't good sushi!

Those 'pictures' are either two things. 1) Not the 4280. 2) Is a poorly set up 4280... and I mean really screwed up.

Wasted time for anyone thinking otherwise. And if you really think this is a true comparison... eh, I guess there's no need to check out the Kuro.

You've already made up your mind.

Hi Usa from England, I have a 4280 and have a 508XD due to arrive next week.
The specs here are a little different.

I have spoken to the chap who posted the above and he is cool and knows his stuff, it is a 428XD.

I found his results strange also. He has a PH8, probably the best set that Panasonic have ever produced (In the UK at least). I have in my house a Pio 434, Pio 507 a Pana PX70 and a Pana PH10. (PX70 & PH10 for a gym installation).

The New PH10's are not a patch on the PH8's thats why over here no one has an changed from an 8 to a 9 or a 10.

The 4280 goes far blacker than any of the others, is sharper, has the most accurate colours I have seen and has the best processing and motion handling I have seen here in the UK.

Since those pictures the settings he has have now become almost identicle to mine and he is far happier and he realises that there is some calibration needed but like me he is gonna get 500 hours on it first.

The Panas always have a green push to them and I think it makes the image very "metalic" looking.

One reason for the the initial look is this. Red and blue decay quicker than green and Pioneer realise this, within the first 100 hours or so the red and blues are over sensative, then decay to the level of the green, then the set runs for 30/40/50 thousand hours before the panel starts to decay.

So what you see is an A/B with a well run in PH8 vs a brand new 428. Even after a day he says it is now settling and his wife thinks the Pio is better.

My 4280 is awesome and I cant wait to replace my 507 for the 508.

Have a nice day

Very happy for ya man. This wait is killin me.

I'm starting to think some to these 8g pioneers are not created equal.

So it's a gamble if the one you'll buy is a "good" one? :D Let's hope this ain't the case...


Those 'pictures' are either two things. 1) Not the 4280. 2) Is a poorly set up 4280...

Or 3) a "bad" 4280. It seems there are 2 versions in the shop, a good and a bad one. :D

So it's a gamble if the one you'll buy is a "good" one? :D Let's hope this ain't the case...

Man I'm telling you the 5080 at the BB in Plano, TX was amazing. It BLEW away every plasma that was hanging up on display. And the blacks were SO black! I was truly shocked. So why did the same tv at the Frisco store look inferior? I don't know. So if theres anyone in the Plano/Frisco area, go look for yourself.

Man I'm telling you the 5080 at the BB in Plano, TX was amazing. It BLEW away every plasma that was hanging up on display. And the blacks were SO black! I was truly shocked. So why did the same tv at the Frisco store look inferior? I don't know. So if theres anyone in the Plano/Frisco area, go look for yourself.

Maybe.... feed?

So it's a gamble if the one you'll buy is a "good" one? :D Let's hope this ain't the case...



Or 3) a "bad" 4280. It seems there are 2 versions in the shop, a good and a bad one. :D

I'd so no to number 3). That is if logic has anything to do with this discussion. If not... how about 4) The plasma fairy cursed this 4280 to look like a 4270.

Maybe.... feed?

I'm hoping that it was the feed and not the TV. I will go by both stores and try to take some pics with my digital camera.

This statement is flawing and incorrect in many ways. One, there is no difference in glass between the commercial Panasonics and consumer Panasonics. You can verify this by going to Panasonic's website and pull up the replacement part numbers.

Your perception of blacks is very intriguing. Tell you what, if you can measure your 8 series Panasonic minimum luminance levels to be exactly the same or lower than a properly calibrate 8G Pioneer, I will gladly purchase you a plasma of your choice (up to 65" in size) in any country you want.


I didn't say there was any difference in the glass, I don't think the glass has changed since the 6 series, what has changed is the electronics that drive the panel, and if you are only allowed to drop the absolute black to a certain point through software that is your limit.

What I can do is take a picture with exactly the same settings, for exactly the same amount of time with both panels so we can compare how much difference there is.

No offence mate, but I would have thought you of all people could see the difference between the commercial and consumer Panasonic panels, I have to say I am truly shocked that you say you can't??!!

I've been looking at the new Pioneer models frequently at my Best Buy and I can tell you that those black levels in the picture are not accurate. His testimony contradicts the several thousand posts on here supporting the superior black levels of the 8G line.

Boy, will I second that! I don't know how he adjusted the Pioneer to give a washed out black like that as well as an overall soft image. When I see people like that I often think that they are on some kind of a mission. As you say, when it contradicts everything people have said and seen (including myself), it has to make you wonder.

I didn't say there was any difference in the glass, I don't think the glass has changed since the 6 series, what has changed is the electronics that drive the panel, and if you are only allowed to drop the absolute black to a certain point through software that is your limit.

What I can do is take a picture with exactly the same settings, for exactly the same amount of time with both panels so we can compare how much difference there is.

No offence mate, but I would have thought you of all people could see the difference between the commercial and consumer Panasonic panels, I have to say I am truly shocked that you say you can't??!!

Absolute black should measure the same on the 9uk and the consumers though. Or atleast I've heard of the same measurements. Don't know about the 8uk or the 8g Panasonics.

The new Pioneers measure alot lower than either.

I think it's not the queston that the Pio can produce deeper blacks, but at the cost of crushing the black detail. And that's the point me and other people didn't expect (and is dissapointing).

In my observations I saw both better blacks and better shadow detail on the Pioneer 8g.

Regarding the black levels, they are almost perfect, but then was the PHD8, however the PX70 I just had for the last month was not, in fact I would say it was somewhere between the 428 and a 427.

This is a couple of quick pics with the blinds down showing a 2.35:1 version of Dances With Wolves and Fifth Element, as you can see the borders disappear...

http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/vs/pioblacks1.jpg

http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/vs/pioblacks2.jpg

Yesterday, I had Sunrise Earth on the screen with both hooked up, and when I got the Pioneer to show the same detail as the Panasonic the absolute black level was a touch higher.
It seems to be more of a gamma problem, in fact I shouldn't say problem cause it really isn't a problem at all.
It seems to me that gamma 3 is more like 2.3, gamma 2 more like 2.4 and gamma 1 2.5, I would like to know what they actually are, seems like it could do with a gamma 4 setting. ;)

I've yet to see a Panasonic out-do a Pioneer. Im not saying the Panny's are bad TV's, I may own one soon. But the says still holds, "It's not a Pioneer, but it isn't bad".
You are new here, so you do not know the history. Up to several years ago, Panasonic plasmas had the best black level in the industry. Pioneers had excellent colors and were highly regarded plasmas, but they could not meet Panasonic's minimum black levels. Pioneer significantly improved their black levels when the xx60 models came out in the summer of 2005 to get close to what Panasonic could do. At that point, Pioneer caught up to Panasonic in basic display quality, although there are differences in the color look, features, the scaler and the electronics. Both of them make measurably better plasmas than what we had available 3 years ago.

Both Panasonic and Pioneer have made improvements this year with better anti-glare coatings for the Pannies, better black levels for the Pioneers, and widely available 1080p models from both of them. What I would like to see is concrete real measurements on the minimum black levels and ANSI contrast ratios for the 50" 768p PX75, PX77, 5080 and the 1080p PZ700, 5010 so we have some real performance metrics to use. With the long and bloated threads on the PZ700s and xx80s, I may have missed real measurements for those models. Has someone from a reputable source posted such measurements?

Those pictures are pretty accurate representation of calibrated 8G. Yes, you can turn the brightness down to achieve better black level, but that comes at the cost of shadow detail. 8G is just like an lcd in that matter. I'm not saying that 8G is a bad plasma, but it's not leaps and bounds better(if any) than Panasonic.

Each to his own, but I couldn't disagree more. In bright scenes the Pioneer is not leaps & bounds better than the Panasonic, but in dim to dark scenes it sure is.

You are new here, so you do not know the history. Up to several years ago, Panasonic plasmas had the best black level in the industry. Pioneers had excellent colors and were highly regarded plasmas, but they could not meet Panasonic's minimum black levels. Pioneer significantly improved their black levels when the xx60 models came out in the summer of 2005 to get close to what Panasonic could do. At that point, Pioneer caught up to Panasonic in basic display quality, although there are differences in the color look, features, the scaler and the electronics. Both of them make measurably better plasmas than what we had available 3 years ago.

Both Panasonic and Pioneer have made improvements this year with better anti-glare coatings for the Pannies, better black levels for the Pioneers, and widely available 1080p models from both of them. What I would like to see is concrete real measurements on the minimum black levels and ANSI contrast ratios for the 50" 768p PX75, PX77, 5080 and the 1080p PZ700, 5010 so we have some real performance metrics to use. With the long and bloated threads on the PZ700s and xx80s, I may have missed real measurements for those models. Has someone from a reputable source posted such measurements?

The most concrete measurements in terms of 'black level' is this.

Panasonic 9uk = .012

Panasonic PZ700 = .018

Pioneer 5080, 4280 = .0032 to .0027... based on D-nice's post awhile back.

A Pioneer 5010 should be even a bit lower than the 5080. But yes, your history on Pioneer and Panasonic pretty much summed it up. Good work. :)

Regarding the black levels, they are almost perfect, but then was the PHD8, however the PX70 I just had for the last month was not, in fact I would say it was somewhere between the 428 and a 427.

This is a couple of quick pics with the blinds down showing a 2.35:1 version of Dances With Wolves and Fifth Element, as you can see the borders disappear...

http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/vs/pioblacks1.jpg

http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/vs/pioblacks2.jpg

Yesterday, I had Sunrise Earth on the screen with both hooked up, and when I got the Pioneer to show the same detail as the Panasonic the absolute black level was a touch higher.
It seems to be more of a gamma problem, in fact I shouldn't say problem cause it really isn't a problem at all.
It seems to me that gamma 3 is more like 2.3, gamma 2 more like 2.4 and gamma 1 2.5, I would like to know what they actually are, seems like it could do with a gamma 4 setting. ;)

I guess... so. Pretty pictures. But the thing is, even my 5070, when I took a picture of it... the blacks seemed to blend into the bezel way more than it actually did in real viewing. It's a camera thing. What I want to see is a dark scene... and see those black bars still somewhat resemble the bezel around it.

Hello sampo. I see you've slivered your way back onto AVS. Nice first post cover-up too ;)

You beat me to it D-Nice. I reviewed his 7 posts and he seems to be following the same pattern as usual. :rolleyes:

This thread is rapidly becoming a model for "FUD".

No offence mate, but I would have thought you of all people could see the difference between the commercial and consumer Panasonic panels, I have to say I am truly shocked that you say you can't??!!I can see a difference between a properly setup pro Panny and a improperly setup consumer Panny. I can see a difference between a DVE/Avia calibrate consumer Panny and ISF calibrated pro Panny...and vice versa. I cannot see a difference between an ISF calibrated consumer Panny and ISF calibrated pro Panny.


Can I see more details in shadows of a properly setup 9/10G Panny compared to a properly setup 8G Panny? No. Setup makes the difference.

I'm starting to think some to these 8g pioneers are not created equal. I went to the Best Buy in Frisco, TX. They have the 5080 setup on display with the remote. No matter how much I played with the settings, I couldn't get the picture as sharp as the 9g Panasonics. I was there for over an hour playing with the settings. Now yes the black levels where better on the 5080, but NOT that much better, I was truley disappointed with what I saw. And so was everyone else that came to see this plasma, even the BB employees who was anticipating this TV expressed how they was let down with it.

I decided to visit the Best Buy in Plano, TX (about 25 mins away). They also had the 5080 setup on display (no remote). I was blown away by the picture. The picture was very sharp and the display almost looked 3D. The black levels was so black that I could barely tell the difference between it and the bezel. I couldn't believe this was the same tv I was looking at at the BB Frisco store. Go figure.

When you see this phenomena, start thinking 'how are these units hooked up'? I seriously doubt the difference you are seeing is the result of inherent differences from 1 sample to the next.

A guy @avforums bought a new PioG8, and compared it next to his
"old" Panasonic PH8D, a commercial screen. Very interesting read

You should post pics without the bezel showing and without a label and we'll take a blind vote, this is the only way to tell which is better online.

I can see a difference between a properly setup pro Panny and a improperly setup consumer Panny. I can see a difference between a DVE/Avia calibrate consumer Panny and ISF calibrated pro Panny...and vice versa. I cannot see a difference between an ISF calibrated consumer Panny and ISF calibrated pro Panny.


Can I see more details in shadows of a properly setup 9/10G Panny compared to a properly setup 8G Panny? No. Setup makes the difference.


Each to his own then, I have never seen an ISF calibrated consumer panny look as good as the commercial screen. Always look softer.

The Pioneer looks stunning with a high quality HD feed, but with Sd material it just looks really soft at the minute. I am hoping it will settle down and start to look a lot better.

Well, I think it's best to let the TV's speak for themselves. Folks can have their own
impressions, and whatever they may be, all the power to them whichever TV they
choose. The only concern I have is that folks might end up disappointed when they
take something home, especially after spending a heck of a lot of cash. I sure don't
see any 8G "disappointed" comments which, for me, is a good sign, especially since
there are still the Elites and 1080P's on the way.

This is really getting interesting. I was always under the impression that the 9th generation Panasonic commercial plasmas had SLIGHTLY better blacks than the 8th generation, but who knows.
This is the first I've heard that the 8th generation commercial was the best Panny plasma ever and they have gotten worse...

The ONLY thing my previous TH-50PHD8UK was better (I would say MUCH better...) than my current TH-50PH9UK is with Image Retention. There was NONE on the 8UK.

here are some numbers I pulled from UltimateAV Mag website. It shows what some of you have been looking for on the different contrast ratios for the panny vs pio "issue." I actually have a 4270 at the moment but may trade it in for a newer model as I just purchased it. It does not give numbers for the pioneer 80 series but for the 940 elite model. I hope this helps and both are fantastic sets.

Panasonic TH-50PZ750U
Window: 2041:1 (36.7fL/0.018fL
Full Screen: 1024:1 (18.44fL/0.018fL)

Pioneer Elite PRO-940HD
Window: 1568:1 (64.27fL/0.041fL)
Full Screen: 561:1 (22.99fL/0.041fL)

My 50PHD8 had zero retention too, but my 42PHD8 does have it, only panny I have owned that does.
The first thing I did notice when I went back to the 42 after the 50 was the better blacks though.
How do you find the commercial vs consumer screens Bruzzi?

Those 'pictures' are either two things. 1) Not the 4280. 2) Is a poorly set up 4280... and I mean really screwed up.

Or 3) Some people prefer more detail to deeper blacks

Each to his own then, I have never seen an ISF calibrated consumer panny look as good as the commercial screen. Always look softer.

My understanding is that the commercial Panny models can be tweaked much more by a professional ISF calibrator than the consumer model--indeed, this has been one of the big selling points for the commercial model. More than one ISF calibrator has told me that the consumer models are more limited in what they can do with them. Perhaps that is why you find the calibrated commercial model looks better?

The ONLY thing my previous TH-50PHD8UK was better (I would say MUCH better...) than my current TH-50PH9UK is with Image Retention. There was NONE on the 8UK.

Sorry to get off topic, but Bruzzi, why did you upgrade from the 8th to the 9th generation Panny? My understanding is that the differences are minimal.

#

##

Each to his own then, I have never seen an ISF calibrated consumer panny look as good as the commercial screen. Always look softer.

The Pioneer looks stunning with a high quality HD feed, but with Sd material it just looks really soft at the minute. I am hoping it will settle down and start to look a lot better.

Giz

These are Marks SD shots of DY who, look sharp to me

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5058695&postcount=614

Boy its getting thick when someone who actually owns one is being raked over the coals by the typical few who don't.
What a joke.
I don't see any agenda here, well at least not with gizlaroc.The more info we can get the better for all.

FWIW just spent an hour with an 1150 in a BB mini-mag.Fantastic picture and easily the best I have seen to date. :)

The new Pioneers have an Enhancer Mode:

1. Hard (sharpness)
2. Natural (sharpness)
3. Soft (sharpness)

In setting 3 the first pic of the asteroid would appear as soft as it does, but switching to setting 1 for hard sharpness brings out equal detail to the Panny without compromising the PQ.

OK, I have been playing with the sharpness control, now before I had been adjusting it between -12 and -0, and even on HD channels it has looked soft compared with the PHD8.
Now I thought I would just try and see if setting it to a positive value would make SD more watchable, and it is now on +10!!!
This goes against everything I have known with every display I have ever owned, but now I have a picture that has some depth at last and isn't annoying me.

The only time I have ever added any form of sharpness is on the Crystalio II, a couple of clicks and that seemed to pull out some finer details without ruining the picture with noise, and this seems to do the same.

Time to play some more.

Boy its getting thick when someone who actually owns one is being raked over the coals by the typical few who don't.
What a joke.
I don't see any agenda here, well at least not with gizlaroc.The more info we can get the better for all.

FWIW just spent an hour with an 1150 in a BB mini-mag.Fantastic picture and easily the best I have seen to date. :)

Agreed. I don't see an agenda here either, just a puzzled and somewhat frustrated new Pio owner trying to make sense of things.

Now that you're one of the few who have seen the 1150, any further comments--especially in terms of how it compares to the 5080?

My 50PHD8 had zero retention too, but my 42PHD8 does have it, only panny I have owned that does.
The first thing I did notice when I went back to the 42 after the 50 was the better blacks though.

Interesting, Never had a chance to play and "abuse" a 42PHD8 so I can't say anything. :D

BTW, Image retention was so bad on the first couple hundred hours on my 50PH9UK that one day I got so mad I put the "Negative" function (with a whole white screen) playing for 24 hours straight. :mad:


How do you find the commercial vs consumer screens Bruzzi?
You mean... which one I think is better???



Sorry to get off topic, but Bruzzi, why did you upgrade from the 8th to the 9th generation Panny?

I was planning to upgrade to a 58" 1080p Plasma so I promised to sell my TH-50PHD8UK to my cousin. Then I had second thoughts and decided to wait a little bit. But I couldn't resist my cousin begging (He lives in Brazil where the 50" Plasmas still too expensive compared to the 42" Models) so eventually I had to sell the 508UK to him. Well, I didn't want to be without a TV so I went to B&H Photo and bought the 50PH9Uk (for half price I paid for my 50PHD8UK). :D



My understanding is that the differences are minimal.

Yup, that's right... except for one thing... "Floating Blacks".
This was never really an issue using the HDMI or even Component inputs.
But man, with S-Video / Composite (which I use for regular TV) FB was so bad that it made me stop watching regular TV on the 50PH8K. I'm happy to say it's almost completly gone on the 50PH9UK. :) :) :)

You mean... which one I think is better???



Yeah, in the UK it is sort of agreed by all that the commercial screens always looks that little bit sharper, and just have a more pleasing overall image.
But I get the impression that in the States people tend to look at them as the same screen just different features, is that the case??

Yeah, in the UK it is sort of agreed by all that the commercial screens always looks that little bit sharper, and just have a more pleasing overall image.
But I get the impression that in the States people tend to look at them as the same screen just different features, is that the case??

Gonna be honest...

I haven't had a chance to see calibrated Commercial and Consumer Models side-by-side for a long time. Now, comparing a TH-50PX600U against my TH-50PH9UK (different occasions) I think both were similar (DVD and HD content) except I prefer the colors on my TH-50PH9UK (they look more natural IMO).


But there's nothing better than having the Plasmas side-by-side to do the comparison. :)

Those pictures are pretty accurate representation of calibrated 8G. Yes, you can turn the brightness down to achieve better black level, but that comes at the cost of shadow detail. 8G is just like an lcd in that matter. I'm not saying that 8G is a bad plasma, but it's not leaps and bounds better(if any) than Panasonic. Definitely don't agree. The colors don't look quite right, and the black levels can definitely be darker *without* crush.

I'm really leary of this post. There was at least as much or more of a difference in the black levels of the 5080 I saw at BB during the day over the last years Pioneers and Pannys than in those pics. The new Panny's haven't impressed me much. And in a darkened room I bet there's even more of a difference. How the 8G Pioneer levels could be that washed out I just don't buy. It kind of reminds me of when I play a non-HD xbox game on my 360. MS has contrast set wrong for 480p games and I have to crank the brightness down on my Panny to about -15 just to get the black levels to where the should be at 0 on all other standings.

Boy its getting thick when someone who actually owns one is being raked over the coals by the typical few who don't.
What a joke.
I don't see any agenda here, well at least not with gizlaroc.The more info we can get the better for all.

FWIW just spent an hour with an 1150 in a BB mini-mag.Fantastic picture and easily the best I have seen to date. :)

Okay then, let's not have a discussion on the TV said. Let's take every opinion we've heard on this board and not challenge it. Let's just all play together like a happy blisful ignorant family. It's no coincidence that this post is the only one I've seen that has stated the Panasonic was a better black level perfomer.. as well as it has pictures that look no where near like the 3 Kuro Pioneers I've seen.

It's been stated many times that here that most of us do not believe Mr. G has an agenda. I just find it hard to believe what's being said.

The equivalent to what's being said here is that a Pioneer 5050 had better black performance than the equivalent Panasonic around that same period of time. It's just not feasible to me. If the brand names were reversed I'd still be plenty skeptical.

And when the pictures mirror the look to my old Pioneer 5070? Well then I guess I think there's something... wrong. Either the poster got the wrong plasma. Or there's an agenda... or magically he got a bad sample that looks like a 7g passed off for an 8g.

Just my 2 cents, I own a isf calibrated 50phd8uk and spent quite a bit of time with the 5080 at BB. I went to look at the pioneer as I was planning on selling the panny and stepping up to the 5080. After seeing the 5080 I plan on keeping the panny for now. The only thing that looked any better to me was the black level and that wasnt by much. If I didnt have a tv now I would go with the 5080 but spending the money to step up for a litlle better black level just isnt worth it to me. Now I might change my mind when I see the 1080p pioneers. But for now I will enjoy the excellent picture a calibrated panny can have. LATER

Just my 2 cents, I own a isf calibrated 50phd8uk and spent quite a bit of time with the 5080 at BB. I went to look at the pioneer as I was planning on selling the panny and stepping up to the 5080. After seeing the 5080 I plan on keeping the panny for now. The only thing that looked any better to me was the black level and that wasnt by much. If I didnt have a tv now I would go with the 5080 but spending the money to step up for a litlle better black level just isnt worth it to me. Now I might change my mind when I see the 1080p pioneers. But for now I will enjoy the excellent picture a calibrated panny can have. LATER

... Sigh.

Watch it in the dark.

Speaking of which, I'm going to walk around Best Buy and go gawk at how much better my current Samsung LCD is than the Panasonics and Pioneers in there. I mean just because they're uncalibrated and I have no remote doesn't mean that this isn't a fair comparison right?

Best Buy sets them up to the best of their abilities! As well as feeds them the best feeds possible.

What would Best Buy do?

You can't compare your ISF cal'd 8uk against a b&m lit, non-cal'd 5080. Even the SD shots from the previous page shows the awesome saturation/black levels and processing of *SD content* on the Pio, (which looks amazing btw) - HD looks even better. Calibration is being underestimated in this thread, and apart from OP's photos, there has not been *any* evidence of *any* Panny out-performing the *80 series, and there has been *much* talk on these threads of the *80 performance under different conditions.

The new Pioneers have an Enhancer Mode:

1. Hard (sharpness)
2. Natural (sharpness)
3. Soft (sharpness)

In setting 3 the first pic of the asteroid would appear as soft as it does, but switching to setting 1 for hard sharpness brings out equal detail to the Panny without compromising the PQ.

Do you know how to get to this settings using the remote?

Do you know how to get to this settings using the remote?

Picture > Pro Adjust > Picture Detail > Enhancer Mode

I Turned this to 1 for sharp and turned down the sharpness in the main picture menu to -10 and it looks great.

Just my 2 cents, I own a isf calibrated 50phd8uk and spent quite a bit of time with the 5080 at BB. I went to look at the pioneer as I was planning on selling the panny and stepping up to the 5080. After seeing the 5080 I plan on keeping the panny for now. The only thing that looked any better to me was the black level and that wasnt by much. If I didnt have a tv now I would go with the 5080 but spending the money to step up for a litlle better black level just isnt worth it to me. Now I might change my mind when I see the 1080p pioneers. But for now I will enjoy the excellent picture a calibrated panny can have. LATER

It is certainly reasonable to stick with a plasma one is perfectly happy with rather than selling it for the latest model that is causing a lot of buzz. But for those without a plasma or considering an upgrade in size (such as myself), then it is much harder to resist the temptation to pick up one of these new Pios!

Everyone says the advantage of the new pios is in a totally dark environment--well, in a totally dark environment I use my projector, and the plasma is for daytime viewing. So, still on the fence...at least for now.

I don't know why everyone is going on about the black levels being poor, they are not poor.
Listen, those photos are mine so I do feel I can comment on them!! :)

I left the shutter open so you could see that when both screens were showing the same amount of low level detail there is sod all difference between them.

If you look at the next photo of fifth element you will see that you can't see the black bars, or the screens surround for that matter, you can do what you want with a photo, to try and judge black levels from a photo of a single screen is pointless.
I thought that most people on the UK forum would know what the black level is on the PHD8, so doing a side by side comparison seemed to be worthwhile, I didn't expect everyone to think that is what the actual blacks looked like when viewing it FFS!! :)

There is not a problem with the blacks, they are the darkest of any flat panel, the point was I think alot of people thought they were going to be considerably darker than the 58 series Fuji and the PH8's etc. which they are not.


The only reason I decided not to get rid of the PHD8 yet is because there is more fine detail on it than on the Pioneer, although now I have started to ramp the sharpness off it seems to be alot better, but it was nothing to do with black levels.

I don't know why everyone is going on about the black levels being poor, they are not poor.
Listen, those photos are mine so I do feel I can comment on them!! :)

I left the shutter open so you could see that when both screens were showing the same amount of low level detail there is sod all difference between them.

If you look at the next photo of fifth element you will see that you can't see the black bars, or the screens surround for that matter, you can do what you want with a photo, to try and judge black levels from a photo of a single screen is pointless.
I thought that most people on the UK forum would know what the black level is on the PHD8, so doing a side by side comparison seemed to be worthwhile, I didn't expect everyone to think that is what the actual blacks looked like when viewing it FFS!! :)

There is not a problem with the blacks, they are the darkest of any flat panel, the point was I think alot of people thought they were going to be considerably darker than the 58 series Fuji and the PH8's etc. which they are not.


The only reason I decided not to get rid of the PHD8 yet is because there is more fine detail on it than on the Pioneer, although now I have started to ramp the sharpness off it seems to be alot better, but it was nothing to do with black levels.

How much darker is the PHD8 vs. an 1140 or a 5070. In my findings, they're not much darker.

Did the UK get a different batch?

It seems inevitable. When I get my hands on my next TV, I'll bring it over to a buddy's house for an old fashion shoot out. His 9uk vs. whatever my next flat panel will be. It shall be fun.

You can't compare your ISF cal'd 8uk against a b&m lit, non-cal'd 5080.

Mmm, the hyped SED killer, plasma V2.0, brand new build from the ground up 3000$ panel can't be compared out of the box to a 3 year old screen? :D

Mmm, the hyped SED killer, plasma V2.0, brand new 3000$ panel out of the box can't be compared to a 3 year old screen? :D

Not in a bright room without a remote control in your hands for both TVs. Unless you're into unfair comparisons. :)

Drove all over Toronto today looking for a 50PZ700 to compare to a 5080 after three stops finally found the two side by side in a Future Shop (CDN BestBuy Affiliate) in Newmarket. It had an Adam Sandler/Robin William's movie where they were romping through a museum on a DVD as a source to both, moderate lighting, no set up and no remote to play with, just out of the box. I stood there for 30 minutes at distances of about 5 feet to 12 feet. I am sorry folks but I could not detect any difference in black levels , colors were identical, perhaps a tad better facial/skin colors on the 5080 but the resolution on the 700 had me picking the Panny at the end of the 30 minutes. I was somewhat let down by the 5080, I mean after reading hundreds of posts about the 5080 blowing everything away it just wasnt to be. So I guess I need to find a decent HD source for a better comparison. The lack of resolution was noticeable on the 5080 compared to the 700 at 10 feet or less. Now if they had a 5010 that would have really been interesting. Time to call an audible on the 5080 ?!

I've been looking at the new Pioneer models frequently at my Best Buy and I can tell you that those black levels in the picture are not accurate. His testimony contradicts the several thousand posts on here supporting the superior black levels of the 8G line.I went to BB for a second time to make sure I was seeing the same thing I saw last time, and yes my eyes and impressions still have not changed. the Pio black are not spectacular as everyone makes them out to be, the 5080 was right next to the new Sammy 50" 1080p and the black where the same to me, actually the blacks on the Pio for some reason looked to take away the details, unlike the Sammy, which had better detail. They also had a Panny 700u a few sets down, and the picture of the panny was smooth as butter, and very detailed, and the blacks where great, my observation, I am no FANBOY I say it like I see it.

This statement is flawing and incorrect in many ways. One, there is no difference in glass between the commercial Panasonics and consumer Panasonics. You can verify this by going to Panasonic's website and pull up the replacement part numbers.

Your perception of blacks is very intriguing. Tell you what, if you can measure your 8 series Panasonic minimum luminance levels to be exactly the same or lower than a properly calibrate 8G Pioneer, I will gladly purchase you a plasma of your choice (up to 65" in size) in any country you want.Fanboyism makes people blind.

Fanboyism makes people blind.

That I can agree with... but I don't think D-nice is gonna agree w/ you quoting him.

For those who don't see the black level decrease.. eh, what can be said? You're happy with what ya got. Good for you! I'm not one of them.

Fellas fellas fellas. Black crush is this...

Black crush is a sets inability to show shadow detail once OIRE black is set 'correctly' on the set. Once you take off any black corrector and set gamma correctly you should be fine. Now based on those pictures... then those are NOT the 8g sets. The black bars for one are way too bright.

In all accounts, all three 5080s I've seen had black bars that matched the bezel in dim situations. If the black bars in the picture look even a bit gray, I question that 'impression' instantly. And I'll say it once and I say it again... how much better the blacks is subjective.

But no one in their right mind would watch both plasmas in the dark and say it's 'not that much better'. In a bright store in bright lights? Yes.. not much better. In a dark situation? A ton better.

I am sure the guy with impressions isn't trying to a pull a bs comparison... but something smells a little fishy. And it ain't good sushi!

Those 'pictures' are either two things. 1) Not the 4280. 2) Is a poorly set up 4280... and I mean really screwed up.

Wasted time for anyone thinking otherwise. And if you really think this is a true comparison... eh, I guess there's no need to check out the Kuro.

You've already made up your mind.Fanboyinsm is blindness, I understand your stand on the Pio, since you spend a pretty penny on it, but to say the blacks are bezel black is a ludicrous statement, and the black bars on the Pio DO NOT match the black bezel, needles to say, it is a fine PDP, enjoy it, but please stop with those ludicrous comments, peace.

That I can agree with... but I don't think D-nice is gonna agree w/ you quoting him.

For those who don't see the black level decrease.. eh, what can be said? You're happy with what ya got. Good for you! I'm not one of them. I don't own any of the these new sets, and am no FANBOY, I could care less who is hyping what, my eyes see the truth, and Pio's Kuru is full of fud.

Drove all over Toronto today looking for a 50PZ700 to compare to a 5080 after three stops finally found the two side by side in a Future Shop (CDN BestBuy Affiliate) in Newmarket. It had an Adam Sandler/Robin William's movie where they were romping through a museum on a DVD as a source to both, moderate lighting, no set up and no remote to play with, just out of the box. I stood there for 30 minutes at distances of about 5 feet to 12 feet. I am sorry folks but I could not detect any difference in black levels , colors were identical, perhaps a tad better facial/skin colors on the 5080 but the resolution on the 700 had me picking the Panny at the end of the 30 minutes. I was somewhat let down by the 5080, I mean after reading hundreds of posts about the 5080 blowing everything away it just wasnt to be. So I guess I need to find a decent HD source for a better comparison. The lack of resolution was noticeable on the 5080 compared to the 700 at 10 feet or less. Now if they had a 5010 that would have really been interesting. Time to call an audible on the 5080 ?!

You were watching Night at the Museum trying to detect black levels? Did you at least wait until he goes outside where it actually is dark? No offense but as an owner of a 4280, as well as seeing the 5080 at a BB...those pictures are about as poor of a demonstration of a KURO's black levels imaginable.

Fanboyinsm is blindness, I understand your stand on the Pio, since you spend a pretty penny on it, but to say the blacks are charcoal black is a ludicrous statement, and the black bars on the Pio DO NOT match the black bezel, needles to say, it is a fine PDP, enjoy it, but please stop with those ludicrous comments, peace.

Yawn.

Blacks do blend into the bezel if you set it up correctly. And I have not yet spent the money on a Pioneer plasma (probably will...) just yet so I haven't spent even a "pretty penny". I've just had some hands on impressions. You know.. with a remote in hand... a dark room? A TV to reference it with?

Ludicrous is you spitting out the word fanboy at someone who doesn't even own a Pioneer at the moment. I too 'say it like I see it'. I've just had more hands on time with a 5080 than you...

Glancing by a store in moderate light is not a comparison. Walking by Best Buy and taking a peak is not a good comparison. If it's good enough for you? Grreat. But if expierence is anything, I've learned not to judge so much on bright lights but in dim places because that's how I watch my movies.

I owned a 5070. As 'high' as I was on the previous Pioneer generation, I never once said I was totally satisified with its black level performance. I've been very vocal on the limitations of plasmas in general. This is the first plasma where I sat in the dark.. and went, wow. No dark gray. I've seen a Panasonic 9uk, owned 5070, tinkered with an 1140, owned a Westinghouse 42w2, still own a 50 Samsung DLP, still own Samsung 32 LCD, and had some impressions of friend's calibrated Sony HD CRT and a Pioneer Pro-FHD1 with premium feeds. And you know the kicker?! I had a REMOTE and was all in the complete dark for all of those impressions.

The Pioneer 5080 and the CRT are the only two TVs that made blacks at night. Everything else ranged from 'pretty bad' to 'acceptable'. And that's what I SAW.

So are we to imply that if one does not watch TV in a totally dark room, that the improved black levels of the 8G plasmas are not a big deal over the 7G?

Other than black levels, are the other picture improvements appreciable enough to go with the new sets, rather than capitalize on the great deals that are now avalable on the 7Gs?

So are we to imply that if one does not watch TV in a totally dark room, that the improved black levels of the 8G plasmas are not a big deal over the 7G?

Other than black levels, are the other picture improvements appreciable enough to go with the new sets, rather than capitalize on the great deals that are now avalable on the 7Gs?

The blacks are the main attraction. If you're watching in a bright room, I'd check them out anyway. Most people can't see much of a difference. I do see subtle differences but of course the dark makes things way more obvious.

Nothing wrong with a 7g if you can live with that black level.

Well I note there is a full moon out tonight, may not be the best viewing conditions for the 5080, seriously I am hoping there is much more to this panel and will report back once I find a solid source and darker conditions.

Fanboyism makes people blind.Pardon me?

Pioneer G8 bubble starting to burst?

This has to be one of the most absurd hyperbole thread starter titles in the history of this forum. He finds one guy who posts his observations of his comparisons and judgements, and his version of what was tweaked or not, and on this single bit of third party comments, he decides to post such an over the top thread title. :rolleyes:

...

Mmm, the hyped SED killer, plasma V2.0, brand new build from the ground up 3000$ panel can't be compared out of the box to a 3 year old screen? :D

Now I get where you are coming from, and why you grabbed on to that one chap's post to put such an over the top thread title on here. This post of yours reveals where you are really coming from. Your title thread is intended to disparge the new, Pioneers, and this post of yours makes it very clear that was your sole purpose for starting the thread. You are not objective. You did not perform the tests. No one else has either, so there is no way of knowing if they were done correctly or fairly. But of course that did not matter, because you were not seeking to be objective, you just wanted the fodder to fuel your bias.

...

I went to BB for a second time to make sure I was seeing the same thing I saw last time, and yes my eyes and impressions still have not changed. the Pio black are not spectacular as everyone makes them out to be, the 5080 was right next to the new Sammy 50" 1080p and the black where the same to me, actually the blacks on the Pio for some reason looked to take away the details, unlike the Sammy, which had better detail. They also had a Panny 700u a few sets down, and the picture of the panny was smooth as butter, and very detailed, and the blacks where great, my observation, I am no FANBOY I say it like I see it.That Sammy was a 65 series LCD correct? And your saw these two panels in normal store lighting (not subdued or dark) correct? Did you attempt to get a remote....for any set?

That Sammy was a 65 series LCD correct? And your saw these two panels in normal store lighting (not subdued or dark) correct? Did you attempt to get a remote....for any set?

Of course not! Who needs a remote?! Best Buy is the best.

Well I note there is a full moon out tonight, may not be the best viewing conditions for the 5080, seriously I am hoping there is much more to this panel and will report back once I find a solid source and darker conditions.Find a BB that has the set playing the BB loop. Watch the Harry Potter trailer. Please report back when you see it.

Fanboyinsm is blindness, I understand your stand on the Pio, since you spend a pretty penny on it, but to say the blacks are bezel black is a ludicrous statement, and the black bars on the Pio DO NOT match the black bezel, needles to say, it is a fine PDP, enjoy it, but please stop with those ludicrous comments, peace.Funny. For someone who claims not to be a "fanboy" you sure do have some the symptoms:

Saying you are not a fanboy to justify your posts
Being a hypocrite: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10888579#post10888579 (post #5)

Of course not! Who needs a remote?! Best Buy is the best.
Amazing, isn't it?

It's going to be real interesting when the HT Mag/CNet/etc reveiws come out....yet alone the 20,000:1 1080p Kuros.

Drove all over Toronto today looking for a 50PZ700 to compare to a 5080 after three stops finally found the two side by side in a Future Shop (CDN BestBuy Affiliate) in Newmarket. It had an Adam Sandler/Robin William's movie where they were romping through a museum on a DVD as a source to both, moderate lighting, no set up and no remote to play with, just out of the box. I stood there for 30 minutes at distances of about 5 feet to 12 feet. I am sorry folks but I could not detect any difference in black levels , colors were identical, perhaps a tad better facial/skin colors on the 5080 but the resolution on the 700 had me picking the Panny at the end of the 30 minutes. I was somewhat let down by the 5080, I mean after reading hundreds of posts about the 5080 blowing everything away it just wasnt to be. So I guess I need to find a decent HD source for a better comparison. The lack of resolution was noticeable on the 5080 compared to the 700 at 10 feet or less. Now if they had a 5010 that would have really been interesting. Time to call an audible on the 5080 ?!
Why in the world would you make any comparative judgement from displays that you admittedly could not adjust. Just does not make any sense to me. Give me the controls and I can make any display look just awful. I just don't see where these kinds of observations further any discussion.

Sorry for the rant. BTW I have seen the Panny, with remote in hand but under strong lighting, an it looked quite good. I have yet to see an 8G Pioneer.

Cheers, :)

Gary

Now I get where you are coming from, and why you grabbed on to that one chap's post to put such an over the top thread title on here. This post of yours reveals where you are really coming from. Your title thread is intended to disparge the new, Pioneers, and this post of yours makes it very clear that was your sole purpose for starting the thread. You are not objective. You did not perform the tests. No one else has either, so there is no way of knowing if they were done correctly or fairly. But of course that did not matter, because you were not seeking to be objective, you just wanted the fodder to fuel your bias.

...

This is what I've suspected since the first post. Not too surprising really, and I've seen bunk threads before when ever a mfg'er produces a new product that has the potential to being heads above the pack. I think you've exposed the real agenda behind all the false reviewing.

This is hilarious... I'm surprised more people didn't comment on this post. I'm not a fan boy, but even this is kinda of a retarded comparison and to expect any credibility now is just funny. Comparing your ISF calibrated panel that is in your home to an off the shelf anything regardless of it's the 5080 or the best display ever at BB and saying: The only thing that looked better was the black level and that wasn't much... That just makes no sense what so ever.... It's still a display, it's not magic or anything, it's not going to ISF calibrate itself... and to consider that a true comparison is stupid.


Just my 2 cents, I own a isf calibrated 50phd8uk and spent quite a bit of time with the 5080 at BB. I went to look at the pioneer as I was planning on selling the panny and stepping up to the 5080. After seeing the 5080 I plan on keeping the panny for now. The only thing that looked any better to me was the black level and that wasnt by much. If I didnt have a tv now I would go with the 5080 but spending the money to step up for a litlle better black level just isnt worth it to me. Now I might change my mind when I see the 1080p pioneers. But for now I will enjoy the excellent picture a calibrated panny can have. LATER

Giz

These are Marks SD shots of DY who, look sharp to me

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5058695&postcount=614

Hard to believe those are SD shots! :) Soft? I don't think so.

OK, I have been playing with the sharpness control, now before I had been adjusting it between -12 and -0, and even on HD channels it has looked soft compared with the PHD8.
Now I thought I would just try and see if setting it to a positive value would make SD more watchable, and it is now on +10!!!
This goes against everything I have known with every display I have ever owned, but now I have a picture that has some depth at last and isn't annoying me.

The only time I have ever added any form of sharpness is on the Crystalio II, a couple of clicks and that seemed to pull out some finer details without ruining the picture with noise, and this seems to do the same.

Time to play some more.

Glad you found out what the issue was. This is why many of us were skeptical. You always have to look for a reason when 1 person's view is so radically different from all other observers. As we've said many times, adjustments, adjustments, adjustments. ;)

Wow

Just as bad as uk forum here, great fun

Cybertec

I saw a 50PZ700 with a BD10A BD player. Now we have less HD here.

This set is kak (c**p) with SD but I agree its very nice with HD.

In the UK we have around 10 HD channels its gonna be a few years yet before we get loads of channels and the HD ones are not broadcasting HD content all the time so there is a lot of SD to be watched. 300 SD channels.

watching a sd dvd on this setup was like watching VHS with a dirty head, an absolute mess which just proves that the Pannys scalling is less than stellar, something that is generally agreed over here (inc pro panels).

I had remote in hand and chance to play with BD disks & sd disks, could not get this to a point where I would have it in my house.

gizlaroc & I had a phone conversation today exchanging some ideas, what he has done with sharpness actually works, I have just applied that along with D-nices colour (sorry color) settings to my 4280 and I really like what I am seeing.

Drove all over Toronto today looking for a 50PZ700 to compare to a 5080 after three stops finally found the two side by side in a Future Shop (CDN BestBuy Affiliate) in Newmarket. It had an Adam Sandler/Robin William's movie where they were romping through a museum on a DVD as a source to both, moderate lighting, no set up and no remote to play with, just out of the box. I stood there for 30 minutes at distances of about 5 feet to 12 feet. I am sorry folks but I could not detect any difference in black levels , colors were identical, perhaps a tad better facial/skin colors on the 5080 but the resolution on the 700 had me picking the Panny at the end of the 30 minutes. I was somewhat let down by the 5080, I mean after reading hundreds of posts about the 5080 blowing everything away it just wasnt to be. So I guess I need to find a decent HD source for a better comparison. The lack of resolution was noticeable on the 5080 compared to the 700 at 10 feet or less. Now if they had a 5010 that would have really been interesting. Time to call an audible on the 5080 ?!

How was the lighting? You couldn't adjust the panel, so its settings were a crapshoot. How was the detail set? All I can tell you is the first time I saw the 5080 I too was let down. The 2nd time I saw it in a better setting, I was blown away. It absolutely lived up to the world-wide 'hype'.

I went to BB for a second time to make sure I was seeing the same thing I saw last time, and yes my eyes and impressions still have not changed. the Pio black are not spectacular as everyone makes them out to be, the 5080 was right next to the new Sammy 50" 1080p and the black where the same to me, actually the blacks on the Pio for some reason looked to take away the details, unlike the Sammy, which had better detail. They also had a Panny 700u a few sets down, and the picture of the panny was smooth as butter, and very detailed, and the blacks where great, my observation, I am no FANBOY I say it like I see it.

So then the question is, is everyone else nuts or is it possible under the conditions and settings you saw it, the panel just didn't show its potential. You see my first reaction when I saw the 5080 under poor conditions was that this just can't be right. Pros have seen the panel, non-pros have seen the panel and everyone is saying the same thing, 'groundbreaking'. This just convinced me something was wrong with the first setup. After seeing it a 2nd time in a different location, it simply proved I was right, there was something wrong with the first setup. :)

Oh, and by the way, I am surely no Pioneer 'fanboy'. Anyone that's read my posts over the years knows that if anything, I'm a Fujitsu 'fanboy'. :D But one thing is for sure, I'm never good at lying to myself when I see something that's clearly superior to what I own.

I don't own any of the these new sets, and am no FANBOY, I could care less who is hyping what, my eyes see the truth, and Pio's Kuru is full of fud.

So I guess the countless people that have seen these panels at shows, stores etc. (pros, journalists and ordinary videophiles) and are almost in universal agreement on their superiority, are also spreading 'fud'? :rolleyes:

Pioneer G8 bubble starting to burst?

This has to be one of the most absurd hyperbole thread starter titles in the history of this forum. He finds one guy who posts his observations of his comparisons and judgements, and his version of what was tweaked or not, and on this single bit of third party comments, he decides to post such an over the top thread title. :rolleyes:

...

As I said before, this entire thread is one of the greatest "FUD" threads I've ever seen on AVS. I said from the beginning earlier in this thread 'agenda'...I stand by it. The words "SED" from the thread starter pretty much proves the point. :rolleyes:

Ken, that's really saying something considering the fact that you own the Fujitsu P50, which I believe to be the very best 768p 50"er ever produced.

It is indeed cajieboy. You know how I love the Fujitsus...and still do! But hey, time marches on and the one issue I've always had with Pioneers has been addressed in spades! I've always loved their color and always thought their processing was top notch...but those blacks just always ruined it for me. They really closed the gap over the last 2 years, but the 8g just simply leap frogs over everyone.

Hey, I've never cared what the name on the panel says, if their engineering is clearly superior to anyone else's, I'll be the first to praise them. Kudos to Pioneer for pushing the envelope.

This thread is becoming really annoying. I find it pretty interesting argument that 8G has to be tweaked in store environment to look better than other sets. Some people are forgetting that those other sets can also be tweaked! Everyone should respect gizlaroc's valuable findings. He has no agenda to bash 8G. He owns both sets and has access to remote controls. He's just reporting what he sees.

This thread is becoming really annoying. I find it pretty interesting argument that 8G has to be tweaked in store environment to look better than other sets. Some people are forgetting that those other sets can also be tweaked! Everyone should respect gizlaroc's valuable findings. He has no agenda to bash 8G. He owns both sets and has access to remote controls. He's just reporting what he sees.

I respect it too. I just find it so strange that his findings are so off compared to other owners... as well as mine. It seems geniune... but I can't really go by what I've seen and agree with what's being shown.

I wasn't happy with the blacks on the 9g Panasonic let alone the 8g one.

I saw a 5080 on top of a 58PZ700 at BB today. Next over was a 6070, which was clearly getting the bronze medal. I own a Panny pdp, and before that a Pio crt, and I love both brands. I did take both sets out of vivid/dynamic and put the Pio in "optimal" and the Panny in standard. I don't know what the color temp was on the Panny - I was having trouble with the remote which, combined with a very impatient 12 year old daughter, kept me from doing full tweakage. Contrast on the Panny was +26, brightness was -1. All else was 0. Didn't have time to mess with the Pio's settings, other than as stated above. No obvious mis-settings were present to my eye.

The feed was a series of images from Planet earth and an animated music machine, plus ads/trailers, I assume via coaxial. It was impossible for me to see the sets straight on from further back than 8 feet, due to them being at the end of an aisle. Nice to see no SDE on the Panny at that close a range.

Resolution - the 1080p of the Panny gave it no discernible advantage. Close ups of the emp. penguin reveled equal detail on both sets. Perhaps the smaller size of the Pio offset the higher resolution of the Panny but, as usual, 1080p v. 768p was a nonissue.

Black levels - On black backgrounds, or when the feed was off, or in night shots, the Pio was clearly darker. Not the huge difference I expected but definitely noticeable. Otherwise, the blacks were somtimes not visibly diffferent, such as in close ups of the penguin's head - where the two sets looked equally dark - or slightly darker on the Pio, such as in the room corner of the animated music machine.. I saw no black crush on either set.

Colors - The Pio looked deeper on the animated scene - the browns and tans were more vivid and rich. Of course, this is typical of Pio v. Panny regardless of generation. On the penguin scenes, the two looked almost identical, though the Pio gave the ice more white (however, the Panny's color temp may have been an issue here, plus I saw this when I had the contrast on the Panny down to +20). In the skydiving scene, the flag/banner was more yellow on the Pio, more orange on the Panny, but otherwise the two were quite comparable.

I did prefer the Pio overall but not by a big margin. Calibration would obviously impact the final decision. Do the new Pios allow for full adjustment of the color decoders? I know the 70 series did not (except for the Elites). I was certainly pleased with the deeper blacks and that the "soft" image that previous Pios had is no more.

This thread is becoming really annoying. I find it pretty interesting argument that 8G has to be tweaked in store environment to look better than other sets. Some people are forgetting that those other sets can also be tweaked! Everyone should respect gizlaroc's valuable findings. He has no agenda to bash 8G. He owns both sets and has access to remote controls. He's just reporting what he sees.

Ok, I'll put it out to you very simply...gizlaroc's credibility on this matter of the Pioneer G8's rates very low when you compare it to the many professional journalists & many other respected members in the AV community that have stated quite the opposite. I stress the word "opposite". Might it be that gizlaroc is just too inexperienced & unknowledgeable as to what exactly makes the best PQ, and that his brief review can only hold the merits of that limited knowledge?

Ok, I'll put it out to you very simply...gizlaroc's credibility on this matter of the Pioneer G8's rates very low when you compare it to the many professional journalists & many other respected members in the AV community that have stated quite the opposite. I stress the word "opposite". Might it be that gizlaroc is just too inexperienced & unknowledgeable as to what exactly makes the best PQ, and that his brief review can only hold the merits of that limited knowledge?

Let me ask you that how many professional reviews there are for 8G so far? AFAIK those professional impressions come from Pioneer's own shows where competing sets are shown side by side with tweaked Pioneer. Before professional reviews start to come in, I wouldn't use words inexperienced and unknowledgeable against another member.

And we are suppose to respect, understand, and/or even hold a convo with a person who banned from this forum on an average of 3 times a month?

rogan1972, please feel free to use gizlaroc as your source for product reviews. I use the words "inexperienced" & "unknowledgeable" politely rather than calling him an outright frack'in stooge...but I'm TRYING to be polite...see Mark, I am taking the high road!:D

Hard to believe those are SD shots! :) Soft? I don't think so.

They are SD shots

Dr Who is not broadcast in HD in the UK, in fact its not even filmed in HD, and those wer from last nights season finale.

This thread sucks. You guys should just let it go...

First measurement from 508XD(elite):

Black Level 0-IRE Blk 0.0072.

So the black level difference is there with black crush, but it's really small. The difference comes from brighter whites. The given contrast ratios on that thread are not comparable, because ratios are measured with 50% APL level. Contrast ratio should be measured with 100% APL level.

Source:

http://www.component.se/forum/index.php?showtopic=6774&st=75

just for reference:

Pioneer PRO-940HD measures 0.039 and 80% lower black level would be 0.0078.

Ok, I'll put it out to you very simply...gizlaroc's credibility on this matter of the Pioneer G8's rates very low when you compare it to the many professional journalists

Those journalists at the shows weren't allowed to look or play with the image settings menus of the other brand screens next to the G8's. This was "secret". At least, that's what i've read in some articles from the hand of some of those journalists.
Also, i've never seen anyone else posting screenshots of a PHD8 or other good pdp next to his G8, in a way you can see and compare small shadow details, so imho Gizlaroc has all the credibility untill you or anyone else proves he's wrong.

Ok, I'll put it out to you very simply...gizlaroc's credibility on this matter of the Pioneer G8's rates very low when you compare it to the many professional journalists & many other respected members in the AV community that have stated quite the opposite. I stress the word "opposite". Might it be that gizlaroc is just too inexperienced & unknowledgeable as to what exactly makes the best PQ, and that his brief review can only hold the merits of that limited knowledge?

Thanks!!

I would like to think that I have a fair idea of what makes a fairly good picture, I have been calibrating displays for for the last god knows how many years, from Barco, Sony, NEC etc. CRT devices through to DLP, LCD and DiLA projectors and LCD and Plasma displays.
Been through all the scalers from the Quadscans, Lumagens and now the Crystalio and onto the Crystalio II, in fact I was asked if I would become a reseller for the Crystalio II in the UK as I was helping so many people get the most out of them when they first came out.

I have owned the following plasmas over the last 3.5 years...

Panny PW6 - Good panel, but terrible posterization

NEC 42XM3 - Bought this after reading the glowing reports from guys on here-what a load of cack, image retention verging on criminal, blacks that just looked milky, and it converted everything internally to 60hz which is a complete no, no for UK users. Lasted a week.

Pioneer 436XDE - Great colours and with HD it excelled, until there was a dark scene, then it all fell to pieces. The thing also looked pretty bad with SD material, lost focus with football etc. so it was gone after 2 weeks.

Panasonic 42PHD6 - Just a great all round screen, only ever used it with a Crystalio (1) and it had real 3D snap, SD through SDI sat box was breathtaking at times, as was the image from the SDI Philips 963 dvd, D-Theater was pretty special too.

Panasonic 50PHD8 - Great with HD material but a slightly higher absolute black than the 42" I had before, banding seemed to be back again too, although nothing like the 42PW6. SD annoyed me slightly moving up to the bigger screen, guess I had just got used to the 42 looking so damned good. Put the Crystalio II on it and hat helped quite alot but went back to a 42" in the form of a 427XD, hated it, hated it, hated it!

42PHD8 - even without the Crystalio II it looked awesome - floating blacks on YUV and HDMI were there but once calibrated they were not a problem for me, and the blacks were simply stunning.

Also had a PX70 for a month but that went back a couple of weeks ago, colours are not as natural, the blacks looked washed out when at a gamma of 2.2 and the internal processing just makes everything look so soft, also the bright pixels fizz, drop the contrast to get rid of that and the whole image looks flat. Great screen for the money but having the PHD in the other room made you see the areas it was lacking.

That was my current screen until I picked up the Pioneer, it is calibrated to gamma 2.2 and a near perfect colour temp with the furthest point out being 6328 at 10ire, all though that could be the colorimeter giving false readings that low and it may be well out! :D
But I have had loads of Pioneer owners round my place over the last 3 odd years and they have all been extremely impressed with the results of the Panny commercial screen, I would guess half a dozen get rid of their screens and got a PH and Crystalio and loads bought just the screen. There is something about seeing a screen with proper blacks that means going back to one that can't is impossible, I bet no one who has lived with the 8th gen Pioneers for more than a week could ever go back to a 7th gen!

So I do think I have a fair bit of experiance with displays and what makes a good image. As I said, my posts on the UK forums were my initial impressions, it took my 400 odd hours before I liked the PHD8 after the PHD6 and hours of getting it just right, I have now been watching that screen for around 500 days, so going to something as different as the Pioneer was never going to be a case of turning it on and going "WOW!"
Although reading the posts on here I guess I fell for the whole "makes everything else look shite!" nonsense just like many others do.

Simple fact it, this set goes against everything we know regarding ramping up sharpness and sharpness modes, almost like the top settings are default and anything below that just softens the image.
Still trying to get used to the noise in bright solid areas like Sky, but been assured that disappears when the panel beds in a bit.

I don't know why everyone gets so defensive about a display, we all like different things, God just look at how many people buy LCDs FFS!! :)
I bought a Samsung 1080p LCD 2 weeks ago when the PX70 went, I won't comment on that!!
My point is, I have had a bit of experience with flat panels, and I stand by what I say, in normal viewing conditions there is nothing between the black levels of my PHD8 and the 428, with just a lamp on you still cant tell the difference, however turn the lights off completely and you can tell the Pioneer goes darker, and at that point they don't look crushed either, you can see real low level detail, however I never watch in a pitch black room anyway, so it is a slight black crush for me and inky black borders.

It seems odd that the UK Pioneer would use a different bezel/frame.

The 4280 and 5080 in the US both have squared off edges along the top while the 4270 and 5070 use rounded edges.

Here's a 4280 posted in another thread...

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d156/jddesigned/Plasma/pioneer-glare.jpg
http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/vs/vs3.jpg

It might be the perspective, though, but it seems different. Very odd.

They don't. Here it comes another picture from Marks G8

This thread is becoming really annoying. I find it pretty interesting argument that 8G has to be tweaked in store environment to look better than other sets. Some people are forgetting that those other sets can also be tweaked! Everyone should respect gizlaroc's valuable findings. He has no agenda to bash 8G. He owns both sets and has access to remote controls. He's just reporting what he sees.

Um Sampo, if you read his posts you'll see that HE put some rather odd settings in the panel. As he experiments he's finding that his settings were totally erroneous. He's used to putting the sharpness all the way down and he's found you don't do that with the Pioneers. This accounts for not finding the panel sharp.

Let me ask you that how many professional reviews there are for 8G so far? AFAIK those professional impressions come from Pioneer's own shows where competing sets are shown side by side with tweaked Pioneer. Before professional reviews start to come in, I wouldn't use words inexperienced and unknowledgeable against another member.

Sampo, I find it fascinating that you put 100% credibility in ONE poster's thoughts and are incredibly quick to throw out the hundreds and hundreds of posts and thoughts from people at shows, editorial writers at shows, average people observing the panels at shows, the many many people that have seen the panels in stores now AND the owners (with the exception of one who has admitted he's screwed up his settings). ALL of these people's opinions get thrown out, but you hold dear to your heart the ONE post that contradicts all others.

You also throw out the post by the guy who has BOTH the Fujitsu and the Pioneer and found the Pioneer to have the better picture.

As always Sampo, you have an agenda and you can't hold it back. You may hide it for the first few posts under your new alias, but sooner or later it becomes bigger than you...it MUST come out. :rolleyes:

First measurement from 508XD(elite):

Black Level 0-IRE Blk 0.0072.

So the black level difference is there with black crush, but it's really small. The difference comes from brighter whites. The given contrast ratios on that thread are not comparable, because ratios are measured with 50% APL level. Contrast ratio should be measured with 100% APL level.



Anyone that's seen these panels under the proper lighting where black level differences show, knows full well this is FAR FAR from a 'really small' difference. The reports from owners, shows and stores with dim lighting shows the difference to be quite large.

Sampo, who is that signs your paychecks? :rolleyes:

It's about time for a mod to clean up Sampo's poop again. :(

I don't know why everyone gets so defensive about a display, we all like different things, God just look at how many people buy LCDs FFS!! :)


There's a few reasons why this is, allow me to enumerate:


*We've got one guy on this thread who is a notorious Pioneer basher and has been banned from AVS countless times. He always resurfaces to begin or join a Pioneer bashing session. He pollutes thread after thread and has an obvious agenda.

*You post runs contrary to every other owner & observer. I've spent many years observing & owning various display devices. What I have seen of the Pioneer is 100% consistent with everything reported at the shows as well as all owners reports (other than yours). Yours is the 'only' negative owner's post we've seen.

*By your own admission you have done some serious miscalculations in your adjustments of the new Pioneer. Your prior adjustment methodology with other panels doesn't seem to work with the Pioneer 8g. You are discovering that and will probably continue to find improper settings you have dialed in.

*We've got a guy who started this thread who I believe also has an agenda. His 'casual' mention of SED smacks of a few other SED obsessed individuals on AVS who are also on a mission. For some, SED is a religion.


So those are just a few of the reasons why people may 'appear' to be 'over-reacting'. We've seen the value of AVS decline over the years because of people like this. I'm not saying you are one of those people, but I am saying your initial reaction to the Pioneer was not accurate and was at least partly due to improper settings of your own.

http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/62/63/413/PDP-4280XD/index.html

I guess you are asking if I am taking screenshots of a 427?? :)

I had one of those in my house last year for a week, never again!! ;)

ken, no problem at all and I do understand. Sampo is the last person I want commenting with me.
He trolls the UK forums too, I think he likes the Samsung LCDs, well just shows what a dipshite he really is!! ;)

ken, no problem at all and I do understand. Sampo is the last person I want commenting with me.
He trolls the UK forums too, I think he likes the Samsung LCDs, well just shows what a dipshite he really is!! ;)

Gislaroc, it's almost impossible to believe a guy can be so lifeless as to spend all his time trolling as Sampo does. I still believe he is payed to do this and I think one day we'll get to the truth.

I sincerely hope you find that 'magic' combination of settings that makes almost everyone so admire these new panels. :)

OK, I was attempting to determine whether it was a 7g or a difference in the Euro model (that seems to be the case).

It's just that, I've spent time with those Panasonic panels (including a recent commercial model) and they continue to suffer from the same issues. The black level is good, but the reproduction of shadow detail results in a grainy, dithered artifact (same deal with the Fujitsu panels). Basically, the plasma cells flicker to create these deep shades. With video material, it isn't a huge concern, but I really notice it with games and PC usage. It has nothing to do with the source either.

I found with Brightness at +2 on the Pioneer, shadow detail is not crushed and panel darkness remains in tact. The detail is darker, however, and can appeared crushed in a somewhat lit room (same deal with CRTs).

They don't. Here it comes another picture from Marks G8

That is very odd. It certainly appears his bezel is rounded at the corners. Anyone have any ideas on this one?

To be fair to Gizlaroc, he did say they were early impressions. I think the problem is that someone else has seized upon the discussions we have been having on the AV Forums, with their own agenda.

We haven't had the TV as long as you guys, and are just starting to work them out. I love my 508XD. :)

The photo is taken slightly above the TV. I've just had a look at mine, and it gives the same impression as his photo.

Mmm, the hyped SED killer, plasma V2.0, brand new build from the ground up 3000$ panel can't be compared out of the box to a 3 year old screen? :D


You are the one with no credibility. You started this Phony Thread. The person who's post you grabbed to make your case, has since posted that he was using the wrong settings on the Pioneer, but that makes no difference to you, because you just wanted to plant a false idea about how the new Pioneers are poor products.

Since the example you used, has since been proven wrong, by the person who actually made the inital error, if you had any sense of fairness to the truth you would have the thread title removed, and the thread shut down. I do not expect you to, because you are not interested in reporting the facts, or in correcting your false thread Title.

...

No the 4280 has a rounded bezel, I even posted a link for you...

4280

http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/62/63/413/PDP-4280XD/index.html

428

http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/62/63/413/PDP-428XD/index.html

*You post runs contrary to every other owner & observer. I've spent many years observing & owning various display devices. What I have seen of the Pioneer is 100% consistent with everything reported at the shows as well as all owners reports (other than yours). Yours is the 'only' negative owner's post we've seen.


I dont belief it was that negative, it were his first impressions.
And judging from what communicated early, the pioneer needs some adjusting.
The big winner in this discussion, cause when it arrives at my home I wont be terribly dissapointed.
I will probably use Gizla's and Marks setting to get through the first 200 hours, and then let an ISF expert do some good.

When some people read very positive owners reviews they tend to go with it, for many it is very difficult to admit that they were dissapointed with an extremely expensive flat-tv.
I am glad Gizla shared his comments, I rather read critics then another "OH I am so pleased" swan-song.

Anyone that's seen these panels under the proper lighting where black level differences show, knows full well this is FAR FAR from a 'really small' difference. The reports from owners, shows and stores with dim lighting shows the difference to be quite large.

Sampo, who is that signs your paychecks? :rolleyes:

Read Sampo's first post under his new name. What a crock. He claimed to actually have bought a 4280 from a store, and was returning it, because he did not like it, all before any B&M stores were even selling them. Amazing what crap this clown comes up with, when ever he attempts to sneak back into the forum.

..

No the 4280 has a rounded bezel, I even posted a link for you


Thanks. I didn't realise that before.

I am glad Gizla shared his comments, I rather read critics then another "OH I am so pleased" swan-song.

I'm pleased Sampo didn't pick upon my early review, where I was getting juddering with 50Hz sources, and the TV was definitely going to be sent back! Through the help of forum members, we discovered that it was due to an incorrect default setting of the panel refresh mode.

Thanks!!

I would like to think that I have a fair idea of what makes a fairly good picture, I have been calibrating displays for for the last god knows how many years, from Barco, Sony, NEC etc. CRT devices through to DLP, LCD and DiLA projectors and LCD and Plasma displays.
Been through all the scalers from the Quadscans, Lumagens and now the Crystalio and onto the Crystalio II, in fact I was asked if I would become a reseller for the Crystalio II in the UK as I was helping so many people get the most out of them when they first came out.

I have owned the following plasmas over the last 3.5 years...

Panny PW6 - Good panel, but terrible posterization

NEC 42XM3 - Bought this after reading the glowing reports from guys on here-what a load of cack, image retention verging on criminal, blacks that just looked milky, and it converted everything internally to 60hz which is a complete no, no for UK users. Lasted a week.

Pioneer 436XDE - Great colours and with HD it excelled, until there was a dark scene, then it all fell to pieces. The thing also looked pretty bad with SD material, lost focus with football etc. so it was gone after 2 weeks.

Panasonic 42PHD6 - Just a great all round screen, only ever used it with a Crystalio (1) and it had real 3D snap, SD through SDI sat box was breathtaking at times, as was the image from the SDI Philips 963 dvd, D-Theater was pretty special too.

Panasonic 50PHD8 - Great with HD material but a slightly higher absolute black than the 42" I had before, banding seemed to be back again too, although nothing like the 42PW6. SD annoyed me slightly moving up to the bigger screen, guess I had just got used to the 42 looking so damned good. Put the Crystalio II on it and hat helped quite alot but went back to a 42" in the form of a 427XD, hated it, hated it, hated it!

42PHD8 - even without the Crystalio II it looked awesome - floating blacks on YUV and HDMI were there but once calibrated they were not a problem for me, and the blacks were simply stunning.

Also had a PX70 for a month but that went back a couple of weeks ago, colours are not as natural, the blacks looked washed out when at a gamma of 2.2 and the internal processing just makes everything look so soft, also the bright pixels fizz, drop the contrast to get rid of that and the whole image looks flat. Great screen for the money but having the PHD in the other room made you see the areas it was lacking.

That was my current screen until I picked up the Pioneer, it is calibrated to gamma 2.2 and a near perfect colour temp with the furthest point out being 6328 at 10ire, all though that could be the colorimeter giving false readings that low and it may be well out! :D
But I have had loads of Pioneer owners round my place over the last 3 odd years and they have all been extremely impressed with the results of the Panny commercial screen, I would guess half a dozen get rid of their screens and got a PH and Crystalio and loads bought just the screen. There is something about seeing a screen with proper blacks that means going back to one that can't is impossible, I bet no one who has lived with the 8th gen Pioneers for more than a week could ever go back to a 7th gen!

So I do think I have a fair bit of experiance with displays and what makes a good image. As I said, my posts on the UK forums were my initial impressions, it took my 400 odd hours before I liked the PHD8 after the PHD6 and hours of getting it just right, I have now been watching that screen for around 500 days, so going to something as different as the Pioneer was never going to be a case of turning it on and going "WOW!"
Although reading the posts on here I guess I fell for the whole "makes everything else look shite!" nonsense just like many others do.

Simple fact it, this set goes against everything we know regarding ramping up sharpness and sharpness modes, almost like the top settings are default and anything below that just softens the image.
Still trying to get used to the noise in bright solid areas like Sky, but been assured that disappears when the panel beds in a bit.

I don't know why everyone gets so defensive about a display, we all like different things, God just look at how many people buy LCDs FFS!! :)
I bought a Samsung 1080p LCD 2 weeks ago when the PX70 went, I won't comment on that!!
My point is, I have had a bit of experience with flat panels, and I stand by what I say, in normal viewing conditions there is nothing between the black levels of my PHD8 and the 428, with just a lamp on you still cant tell the difference, however turn the lights off completely and you can tell the Pioneer goes darker, and at that point they don't look crushed either, you can see real low level detail, however I never watch in a pitch black room anyway, so it is a slight black crush for me and inky black borders.

You made a very simplistic assumption. You assumed that the New Pioneers could be tweaked like all that has gone before. Did you not even take into account that they have made it very clear that they have redesigned and reengineered the entire panel methodology for processing the images. You need to get in touch with the guy who started this thread with the Absurd false Thread title, and based it all on your mistake, and demand that he have his false thread removed. That is unless you still agree with way he claimed, based on your incorrect early comparison.

..

....

You need to get in touch with the guy who started this thread with the Absurd false Thread title, and based it all on your mistake, and demand that he have his false thread removed. That is unless you still agree with way he claimed, based on your incorrect early comparison.
.

Greenland, you start to sound like a broken record. You should prove original poster wrong, not bash him...

You made a very simplistic assumption.


In fact he made an assumption, unlike you, he tried and took his head above the field.
Its very easy to saw it off, but its better to learn something from it.
Gizla has stated his experience which you wrongly tried to question.
So he made a mistake, he admitted and shared some very good sollutions.


You assumed that the New Pioneers could be tweaked like all that has gone before. Did you not even take into account that they have made it very clear that they have redesigned and reengineered the entire panel methodology for processing the images.


Great.
And due to this "redesigned and reengineered the entire panel methodology for processing the images" out of the box it isnt that wonder that many people thought.
Gizla maybe had that same view many have, I probably had the same high hopes.
And yes, if it gets the proper treatment it is a wonderfull machine.
Now we know.


You need to get in touch with the guy who started this thread with the Absurd false Thread title, and based it all on your mistake, and demand that he have his false thread removed. That is unless you still agree with way he claimed, based on your incorrect early comparison.


The title is misty, but the info is legit if you know how this discussion evolved.
Maybe If you knew better you woudnt also make a misty remark like "That is unless you still agree with way he claimed" cause its a load of presumptuous horse manure.

In fact he made an assumption, unlike you, he tried and took his head above the field.
Its very easy to saw it off, but its better to learn something from it.
Gizla has stated his experience which you wrongly tried to question.
So he made a mistake, he admitted and shared some very good sollutions.



Great.
And due to this "redesigned and reengineered the entire panel methodology for processing the images" out of the box it isnt that wonder that many people thought.
Gizla maybe had that same view many have, I probably had the same high hopes.
And yes, if it gets the proper treatment it is a wonderfull machine.
Now we know.



The title is misty, but the info is legit if you know how this discussion evolved.
Maybe If you knew better you woudnt also make a misty remark like "That is unless you still agree with way he claimed" cause its a load of presumptuous horse manure.

The Title is not "Misty". It is FALSE. What the hell is "Misty" about it. It is based on false facts, by a guy who did not know what he was doing. He tried to tune his first Hybrid, without first learning how they are supposed to by tuned, and just assumed that he could do it the same way he had alway tuned all previous autos. It is only " Misty' to some simple simon.
...

The Title is not "Misty". It is FALSE. ...

Afaik Gizlaroc hasn't changed his opinion on the lack of shadow detail in comparison with his PHD8. If he tries to reveal the same amount of shadow detail on both, he'll have to raise the brightness on the G8 to a point that the blacklevel is less deep on the G8 than on the PHD8.

That sir, are imho cracks in the "best blacks" bubble called G8, hence the topic title.

The Title is not "Misty". It is FALSE. What the hell is "Misty" about it. It is based on false facts, by a guy who did not know what he was doing. He tried to tune his first Hybrid, without first learning how they are supposed to by tuned, and just assumed that he could do it the same way he had alway tuned all previous autos. It is only " Misty' to some simple simon.
...

Gizlaroc didn't start the thread, or create the title either.

Look guys, originaly I tried settings similar to the ones D-Nice has posted, and for me using the Sky HD set top box (set to output with contrast low) there was detail missing, if I go back to those settings there still is.

Problem is sometimes it is better to try and avoid all the settings threads from other people as you don't go with what you know, with sharpness settings and Enhance mode settings being bandied about of -10 and mode 3 you try and stay near them, and from my experience with this display it revels in having the sharpness ramped up, certainly before it has doen a few hundred hours.

If I used the settings on the initial settings thread on here I can tell you now there is no way this set would be replacing my Pansonic. At the moment I still can't get it to look quite as 3D as the PHD8 but I am sure that once the pixels settle down a bit that extra 10% will come.



I don't think there is anything wrong with the thread title, I am sure there will be a few people who get this set and whose first impressions will not be that positive, and this is a good thread to come into and find 'it gets better'.

Gizlaroc didn't start the thread, or create the title either.


I never said that he did. I said that another person grabbed his incorrect comparisons, because he did not know how to use the proper settings on the Pioneer, and started a false thread. What Gizlaroc did do, and you can go back and read is, is that he jumped in to support his claims,and others had to keep pushing him to try other settings, that were more appropriate to tweaking the new Pio. So he fed the flames of the false thread. He stood by his judgements for a long time, that he had the expertise to do the comparisons, and that he had proved that an older Panasonic was superior to the new Pio. Turns out he did not know what he was doing.

..

The Title is not "Misty". It is FALSE.


The title is "pioneer G8 bubble starting to burst?"
Understand the meaning of a questionmark?
Its a question based on what someone remarked, in fact that someone didnt started this threat.
Keep your facts straight, and dont start spitting arround false info. You started to sound like Sampo.


It is based on false facts,


So the answere should be :"no the bubble isnt bursting".


It is only " Misty' to some simple simon.
...

Omg, making "funny" remarks about someone's name.
Well I did that in kindergarten...

Look guys, originaly I tried settings similar to the ones D-Nice has posted, and for me using the Sky HD set top box (set to output with contrast low) there was detail missing, if I go back to those settings there still is.

Problem is sometimes it is better to try and avoid all the settings threads from other people as you don't go with what you know, with sharpness settings and Enhance mode settings being bandied about of -10 and mode 3 you try and stay near them, and from my experience with this display it revels in having the sharpness ramped up, certainly before it has doen a few hundred hours.

If I used the settings on the initial settings thread on here I can tell you now there is no way this set would be replacing my Pansonic. At the moment I still can't get it to look quite as 3D as the PHD8 but I am sure that once the pixels settle down a bit that extra 10% will come.



I don't think there is anything wrong with the thread title, I am sure there will be a few people who get this set and whose first impressions will not be that positive, and this is a good thread to come into and find 'it gets better'.

So you admit that you did not know what you were doing, and yet the entire thread title which Screams to All that new Pioneers are not very good, seems correct to you. Now I no longer believe anything that you say. I was giving you the benifit of the doubt,, that your posts were innocent mistakes, until you just said that you fully support the False Thread Title, all based on your Wrong Comparisions.

...

So you admit that you did not know what you were doing, and yet the entire thread title which Screams to All that new Pioneers are not very good, seems correct to you. Now I no longer believe anything that you say. I was giving you the benifit of the doubt,, that your posts were innocent mistakes, until you just said that you fully support the False Thread Title, all based on your Wrong Comparisions.

...

I'd strongly recommend reading the AV Forums thread. You will honestly see the context of it all. I think some will immediately see a huge difference, and others will come to appreciate it over time.

Just for light relief, and ensure that you get the message that we're generally very positive about the TV, here are some photos taken from an SD transmission yesterday.

It's interesting to note that the early poster didn't include the 99.9% of flowing comments about the TV in the same thread.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1351/681216045_46e7273aa6_o.jpg

[QUOTE=SimonS]The title is "pioneer G8 bubble starting to burst?"
Understand the meaning of a questionmark?
Its a question based on what someone remarked, in fact that someone didnt started this threat.
Keep your facts straight, and dont start spitting arround false info. You started to sound like Sampo.


Nice attempt to try and smear me with the Sampo connection, Mr. Five Posts. I guess you also learned that in Kindergarten. There is no question required. The guy who made the test, did not know what he was doing. He has admitted that. So the entire thread is based on a false claim.

Seriously guys, I've never seen a thread this awful since the Sharp banding threads in the LCD sub-forum. I do admit, however, it looks like someone is purposely trying to put down the G8 which isn't cool.

Nice attempt to try and smear me with the Sampo connection, Mr. Five Posts.


Well you did it yourself Mr. join date 2006.


I guess you also learned that in Kindergarten.


Maybe in a few years when you can leave Kindergarten you also learned something.


There is no question required. The guy who made the test, did not know what he was doing. He has admitted that. So the entire thread is based on a false claim.

He did know what he was doing, he only made a mistake.
And he wasnt the one who started this thread, so your remarks are beside the truth.

OK guys I am out of here, I left this forum a while ago because there are too many people who just seem to shout "may balls are bigger than your balls!"

It is a shame as there are some genuinely knowledgeable people on here, but there are far more argumentative idiots as well.
Greenland, you simply don't get your point over very well mate, you just sound like an aggressive **** and I switch off from reading your posts, you are probably saying the same thing as me, but you write it in such a way I just switch off! All you seem to do is suck off the mods mate, if they say something you come in and back it up.

I don't know why you are getting so upset with my initial findings??


Bye guys, have fun with your displays, and mods, try and keep the kids under control, all the European forums say it is such a shame this forum has so many argumentative idots on it that shout louder than the genuinely great people. :(

Honestly greenland, I think you need to relax too. Like I said I'm no fanboy and extremists from any side are annoying. Let the displays speak for themselves and let's help educate those who really want to be educated. That's all you can ask for.

I think gizlaroc has every right to give his first impressions. Is this title kinda lame? probably. Are there idiots on this thread that have added nothing but a stupid bias, probably.

In the end, people questioned his initial findings, he's worked on them, and feels they are much better. It's unfortunate someone tried to make an agenda about it.

Gizlaroc, I would say don't leave this forum as there are always bad apples everywhere you go and as long as you are honest, you continue to contribute value and that's what is important.

People need to keep their panties from getting in a bunch because of posters like sampo. If no one looks and no one feeds him, then there's nothing to see.

Russ

So you admit that you did not know what you were doing, and yet the entire thread title which Screams to All that new Pioneers are not very good, seems correct to you. Now I no longer believe anything that you say. I was giving you the benifit of the doubt,, that your posts were innocent mistakes, until you just said that you fully support the False Thread Title, all based on your Wrong Comparisions.

...

Afaik Gizlaroc hasn't changed his opinion on the lack of shadow detail in comparison with his PHD8. If he tries to reveal the same amount of shadow detail on both, he'll have to raise the brightness on the G8 to a point that the blacklevel is less deep on the G8 than on the PHD8.

That sir, are imho cracks in the "best blacks" bubble called G8, hence the topic title.

And that is one opinion vs how many others? How's the shadow detail on SED? ;)

Look guys, originaly I tried settings similar to the ones D-Nice has posted, and for me using the Sky HD set top box (set to output with contrast low) there was detail missing, if I go back to those settings there still is.



And we have yet another variable here folks, the Sky HD box. I know nothing of that box and I don't know what variables it introduces. It's a bit easier to check out issues with U.S. based content providers since we know most of the variables associated with their equipment. Boxes from SA, Motorola etc. are well known and we can either eliminate issues or assume the boxes are the issues.

Unfortunately most of us know nothing about the Sky HD box.

BTW, the one thing I've found in the time I've played with the 5080, is that Mode 3 in the Enhancer section is simply way too soft. I would go with either Mode 1 or 2, but that's me.

Bye guys, have fun with your displays, and mods, try and keep the kids under control, all the European forums say it is such a shame this forum has so many argumentative idots on it that shout louder than the genuinely great people. :(

So you let a few folks make you run away? I can understand when an entire forum
gets under one's skin (I've recently gotten sick of Rage3D's gaming forum), but for
a few users in a single thread to make you run, it just doesn't make sense. You can
easily just ignore them if they bother you that much, or report their posts if they get
too personal/offensive.

I *TOTALLY* have a different view of the 8G's than you do, and I've already seen them
in numerous places with default settings. They were much better than all the Plasmas
that I saw in the same setting. If any crush was apparent, it was the source itself.
Some of the folks here experienced the same thing, and are having a hard time believing
you, especially when your settings came to question. Other owners have mentioned
the TV really shines after its break-in period is over. Heck, my LCD needed a break-in
period to get rid of the clouds, and it went from looking like crap to looking fantastic.

You are entitled to your own opinion, though. To me, it seems like a premature
opinion, as I don' t get the impression your TV has been properly broken-in, nor
does it sound like your settings are right. Keep in mind, I am being as polite as I
can in saying this and no insult is intended at all, it's just my impression. Mind you,
I am not an owner yet, so my opinion doesn't ring much clout compared to yours.

Anyhow, like I said, skipping this forum isn't the answer. You can ask a lot of guys
for help if the PQ is not to your standard. If it doesn't work out... then you've done
your best and the TV is definitely not worth it for you, and you move on. There are
great people here too.

Just for light relief, and ensure that you get the message that we're generally very positive about the TV, here are some photos taken from an SD transmission yesterday.

It's interesting to note that the early poster didn't include the 99.9% of flowing comments about the TV in the same thread.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1351/681216045_46e7273aa6_o.jpg

That's what always makes me skeptical of threads like these. When 99.9 of the commemts from owners, observers, shows etc. are overwhelmingly positive and someone latches on to one negative comment (where the set was grossly misadjusted to begin with) totally ignoring the other 99.9%, you have to wonder what the motivation is.

Mark, those are just superb shots. To think those are SD, it boggles the mind. I'm not a great believer in making judgements from posted pix, but certainly from a sharpness & color standpoint, those pictures are standouts.

I have a feeling that if Gizlaroc hadn't a PH8D to compare, this thread would never exist. Each other screen turns pale in comparison with the G8, except that one.
The point is, the PH8D is - like i found out myself by viewing a PX500 which uses the same panel - an awesome screen in the shadow detail department. And for some reason Panasonic isn't able to produce that kind of shadow detail anymore in their later generations (because else they couldn't terminate the floating blacks like someone pointed out?).

My conclusion (till now); G8 is able to produce deeper blacks than any other screen out there, including the PH8D, and also produces more shadow detail than any other screen out there, except for that discontinued Panny puppy. :)

Spoken like a true biased owner.

Well of course running off and skipping the forum is what is to be expected from a guy who does not like when his false comparisons were challenged and proven wrong. Notice the words he left on, about what he claims he says about Americans. I guess he does not like the fact that we did not all kiss his Arse, and Worship him for being dead wrong on his testing methodology. Good Riddance to an arrogant spreader of false claims. :D

This thread has reached a new low. Where has the S in AVS gone? Most of threads here are becoming a tool for viral marketing. When a person has something to contribute, extremists trolls like greenland or D-Nice just try to make that person go away. Look what's just happened to gizlaroc. People should be allowed to report his own findings without facing the usual suspects.

Spoken like a true biased owner.

I have a PX60. :) (and turned pale when i saw a PX500 next to a PX60/600 in a shop a couple of months ago, it smoked my screen - and all other screens in the shop incl G7's - shadow detail wise)

I have a PX60. :) (and turned pale when i saw a PX500 next to a PX60/600 in a shop a couple of months ago, it smoked my screen - and all other screens in the shop incl G7's - shadow detail wise)I own one of those also. (PX60). Yes Panasonic screwed the pooch from 40IRE to 80IRE when compared to the 50/500 series. However, the lower end is much improved.

This thread has reached a new low. Where has the S in AVS gone? Most of threads here are becoming a tool for viral marketing. When a person has something to contribute, extremists trolls like greenland or D-Nice just try to make that person go away. Look what's just happened to gizlaroc. People should be allowed to report his own findings without facing the usual suspects.

Your very first post, on June 23rd, under your name, you claimed the following:

"I just did a direct comparison between a year old sony XBR CRT and 4280. The plasma can match Sony in about 30-40% of scenes. Bright scenes are about equal, but in low APL scenes Sony wins hands down. I like Pioneer's styling, but PQ>styling for me, so Pioneer is going back to store. "

Those are your words, and they are a complete lie. You could not have bought and returned a 4280 to a store, by June 23, 2007. No stores were selling them then.
Get lost Sampo.

...

Mark, those are just superb shots. To think those are SD, it boggles the mind. I'm not a great believer in making judgements from posted pix, but certainly from a sharpness & color standpoint, those pictures are standouts.
come on ken, there isnt a chance in hell those shots are SD. those are hi def shots all the way. you show me a set that makes a DVD look exactly like hi def...that is what those look like, and ill buy it right now. theres no way those are SD shots, period.

Your very first post, on June 23rd, under your name, you claimed the following:

"I just did a direct comparison between a year old sony XBR CRT and 4280. The plasma can match Sony in about 30-40% of scenes. Bright scenes are about equal, but in low APL scenes Sony wins hands down. I like Pioneer's styling, but PQ>styling for me, so Pioneer is going back to store. "

Those are your words, and they are a complete lie. You could not have bought and returned a 4280 to a store, by June 23, 2007. No stores were selling them then.
Get lost Sampo.

...

Greenland, Pioneer was available online. You can return items to online stores too.

They actually are SD pictures. You have to remember the SD PQ in the UK is vastly superior to ours. Thier SD is even broadcasted in 16x9 format (it's standard for them).

Greenland, Pioneer was available online. You can return items to online stores too.


Prove it. Show us the paper work, and tell us where you returned it to online that accepted it back because you just did not like it. I am not buying it. You are lying, as usual, Sampo.

...

Your very first post, on June 23rd, under your name, you claimed the following:

"I just did a direct comparison between a year old sony XBR CRT and 4280. The plasma can match Sony in about 30-40% of scenes. Bright scenes are about equal, but in low APL scenes Sony wins hands down. I like Pioneer's styling, but PQ>styling for me, so Pioneer is going back to store. "

Those are your words, and they are a complete lie. You could not have bought and returned a 4280 to a store, by June 23, 2007. No stores were selling them then.
Get lost Sampo.

...I think we should do as we did in the past....ignore him.

UK SD is PAL color DVB MPEG2 720x576i(4:3 and anamorphic 16:9) and vastly superior to NTSC color 720x480i US analog SD.

come on ken, there isnt a chance in hell those shots are SD. those are hi def shots all the way. you show me a set that makes a DVD look exactly like hi def...that is what those look like, and ill buy it right now. theres no way those are SD shots, period.
Yes they are SD because we watch this TV series in Sweden too (SVT1). If they were HD, Swedish channel one (SVT1) will send it on Swedish SVT-HD too. ;)

I have a feeling that if Gizlaroc hadn't a PH8D to compare, this thread would never exist. Each other screen turns pale in comparison with the G8, except that one.
The point is, the PH8D is - like i found out myself by viewing a PX500 which uses the same panel - an awesome screen in the shadow detail department. And for some reason Panasonic isn't able to produce that kind of shadow detail anymore in their later generations (because else they couldn't terminate the floating blacks like someone pointed out?).

My conclusion (till now); G8 is able to produce deeper blacks than any other screen out there, including the PH8D, and also produces more shadow detail than any other screen out there, except for that discontinued Panny puppy. :)

So you have forgotten that you were the one that actually lifted his post from elsewhere and imported into the thread that you started. Now all you have " is a feeling' that it was his post elsewhere that self-started this Thread designed to cast doubt on the quality of the new Pioneers. Sorry. We have your finger prints and DNA all over the scene of the crime. :rolleyes:

I think we should do as we did in the past....ignore him.


Agreed. I just wanted to expose his inital lie, to those who are not aware of his slithering ways.. :D

Agreed. I just wanted to expose his inital lie, to those who are not aware of his slithering ways.. :D

I am trying my very hardest to understand where you are coming from. I really am. The definition of a lie is "a type of deception made to someone else with the intention to deceive". This is not appropriate in this case. Why are you so aggressive? I would honestly recommend that you get counselling for this, as your attitude is likely to adversely affect the quality of your life and those around you in my humble opinion. Just trying to be honest.

come on ken, there isnt a chance in hell those shots are SD. those are hi def shots all the way. you show me a set that makes a DVD look exactly like hi def...that is what those look like, and ill buy it right now. theres no way those are SD shots, period.

They are 100% SD. Doctor Who is not currently recorded in HD, or shown in HD.

I am trying my very hardest to understand where you are coming from. I really am. The definition of a lie is "a type of deception made to someone else with the intention to deceive". This is not appropriate in this case. Why are you so aggressive? I would honestly recommend that you get counselling for this, as your attitude is likely to adversely affect the quality of your life and those around you in my humble opinion. Just trying to be honest.

Mark he is what/who he is you can't change him and maybe you will never understand him either :D

Mark he is what/who he is you can't change him and maybe you will never understand him either :D

And for the benefit of all mankind, and especially Mark's mental health, its better not to understand him at all.

I agree that this had nothing to do with Pioneer's G8 bubble to burst, but in all fairness it wasnt a statement but merely a question.
Gizla has many quality postings on him, most of the time here I read postings which I am interested in.
I've been reading avs for a long time, but in my opinion the level has dropped.
Too much agression and much overreaction.
I now get my info from a GB-forum and I must say, the people there are much more relax. The initial posting was on that forum, and offcourse a lot of discussion but never that agressive as in here.

And the questioners on this forum forced him to see the error of his claims. So that means that the questioners on this forum are truth revealers, and those on your preferred forum are the unquestioning sheep who accept a lot of rubbish as gospel. He was proclaiming his false testing results until this forum made him see the errors of his methodolgy. Too bad, this forum had to put up with all that nonsense, because no one on that other forum had enough backbone to challenge the false claims.

...

This thread has reached a new low. Where has the S in AVS gone? Most of threads here are becoming a tool for viral marketing. When a person has something to contribute, extremists trolls like greenland or D-Nice just try to make that person go away. Look what's just happened to gizlaroc. People should be allowed to report his own findings without facing the usual suspects.
I very much agree with this and it's a real pity and very sad that people like Giz who are just trying to be helpful by posting their impressions are lambasted for their efforts.

One thing is for sure; if an experienced plasma owner such as Giz fell afoul of the Pio settings then Joe Average is going to be lost and probably end up with an awful pic.

I am trying my very hardest to understand where you are coming from. I really am. The definition of a lie is "a type of deception made to someone else with the intention to deceive". This is not appropriate in this case. Why are you so aggressive? I would honestly recommend that you get counselling for this, as your attitude is likely to adversely affect the quality of your life and those around you in my humble opinion. Just trying to be honest.

Nice passive agressive remarks coming from such a non agressive person as yourself. You do realize I hope that you are defending Sampo who has been banned from this forum under many names for the type of behavior and lies that I just caught him spreading under his latest name.
;...

Does this area of the forum not have mods anymore?

And the questioners on this forum forced him to see the error of his claims. So that means that the questioners on this forum are truth revealers, and those on your preferred forum are the unquestioning sheep who accept a lot of rubbish as gospel. He was proclaiming his false testing results until this forum made him see the errors of his methodolgy. Too bad, this forum had to put up with all that nonsense, because no one on that other forum had enough backbone to challenge the false claims.

...

Wrong. On that forum people tried to help him to fix his TV. Not just asking him to go and hang himself because of error he made.

Thanks!!

I would like to think that I have a fair idea of what makes a fairly good picture, I have been calibrating displays for for the last god knows how many years, from Barco, Sony, NEC etc. CRT devices through to DLP, LCD and DiLA projectors and LCD and Plasma displays.
Been through all the scalers from the Quadscans, Lumagens and now the Crystalio and onto the Crystalio II, in fact I was asked if I would become a reseller for the Crystalio II in the UK as I was helping so many people get the most out of them when they first came out.

I have owned the following plasmas over the last 3.5 years...

Panny PW6 - Good panel, but terrible posterization

NEC 42XM3 - Bought this after reading the glowing reports from guys on here-what a load of cack, image retention verging on criminal, blacks that just looked milky, and it converted everything internally to 60hz which is a complete no, no for UK users. Lasted a week.

Pioneer 436XDE - Great colours and with HD it excelled, until there was a dark scene, then it all fell to pieces. The thing also looked pretty bad with SD material, lost focus with football etc. so it was gone after 2 weeks.

Panasonic 42PHD6 - Just a great all round screen, only ever used it with a Crystalio (1) and it had real 3D snap, SD through SDI sat box was breathtaking at times, as was the image from the SDI Philips 963 dvd, D-Theater was pretty special too.

Panasonic 50PHD8 - Great with HD material but a slightly higher absolute black than the 42" I had before, banding seemed to be back again too, although nothing like the 42PW6. SD annoyed me slightly moving up to the bigger screen, guess I had just got used to the 42 looking so damned good. Put the Crystalio II on it and hat helped quite alot but went back to a 42" in the form of a 427XD, hated it, hated it, hated it!

42PHD8 - even without the Crystalio II it looked awesome - floating blacks on YUV and HDMI were there but once calibrated they were not a problem for me, and the blacks were simply stunning.

Also had a PX70 for a month but that went back a couple of weeks ago, colours are not as natural, the blacks looked washed out when at a gamma of 2.2 and the internal processing just makes everything look so soft, also the bright pixels fizz, drop the contrast to get rid of that and the whole image looks flat. Great screen for the money but having the PHD in the other room made you see the areas it was lacking.

That was my current screen until I picked up the Pioneer, it is calibrated to gamma 2.2 and a near perfect colour temp with the furthest point out being 6328 at 10ire, all though that could be the colorimeter giving false readings that low and it may be well out! :D
But I have had loads of Pioneer owners round my place over the last 3 odd years and they have all been extremely impressed with the results of the Panny commercial screen, I would guess half a dozen get rid of their screens and got a PH and Crystalio and loads bought just the screen. There is something about seeing a screen with proper blacks that means going back to one that can't is impossible, I bet no one who has lived with the 8th gen Pioneers for more than a week could ever go back to a 7th gen!

So I do think I have a fair bit of experiance with displays and what makes a good image. As I said, my posts on the UK forums were my initial impressions, it took my 400 odd hours before I liked the PHD8 after the PHD6 and hours of getting it just right, I have now been watching that screen for around 500 days, so going to something as different as the Pioneer was never going to be a case of turning it on and going "WOW!"
Although reading the posts on here I guess I fell for the whole "makes everything else look shite!" nonsense just like many others do.

Simple fact it, this set goes against everything we know regarding ramping up sharpness and sharpness modes, almost like the top settings are default and anything below that just softens the image.
Still trying to get used to the noise in bright solid areas like Sky, but been assured that disappears when the panel beds in a bit.

I don't know why everyone gets so defensive about a display, we all like different things, God just look at how many people buy LCDs FFS!! :)
I bought a Samsung 1080p LCD 2 weeks ago when the PX70 went, I won't comment on that!!
My point is, I have had a bit of experience with flat panels, and I stand by what I say, in normal viewing conditions there is nothing between the black levels of my PHD8 and the 428, with just a lamp on you still cant tell the difference, however turn the lights off completely and you can tell the Pioneer goes darker, and at that point they don't look crushed either, you can see real low level detail, however I never watch in a pitch black room anyway, so it is a slight black crush for me and inky black borders.

The last paragraph cleared things up for me considerably. That is what I was wondering what you're talking about. Oi. Yes. But do understand as I think blacks get blacker.. the more you have to compensate for incoming light.

The darker the details are, the more dark your enviornment needs to be to pick out the details. I do the same with my Samsung LCD. Backlight at high I can pick out details in a lamped room. When it's low I can't see anything until I turn off all the lights.

BTW with a lamp on. Both my Samsung DLP and LCD have AWESOME blacks... too bad they don't stay there when I watch a movie.

Yes they are SD because we watch this TV series in Sweden too (SVT1). If they were HD, Swedish channel one (SVT1) will send it on Swedish SVT-HD too. ;)
Yes it is. Americans don't seem to realize in the main that our SD broadcasts (especially digital satellite) can be pretty incredible in quality - in fact, I usually see little difference between most satellite broadcast HD films (on canal digital film HD anyway) and some very good quality SD channels. Discovery HD, National Geographic HD and Zoom have some exceptional content that blow SD away though but not by the margins that Americans see between their SD and HD channels. I think it's one of the reasons why HD took off so much more quickly in the US - their SD sucks big time so there was more demand.

Does this area of the forum not have mods anymore?

Let's hope that they don't close this topic because one or two persons are playing to the person, because closing this topic is exactly what he or she wants = forget this comparison with another awesome screen shadow detail wise, only halleluja to G8. :)

Yes it is. Americans don't seem to realize in the main that our SD broadcasts (especially digital satellite) can be pretty incredible in quality

Indeed, SD in Europe is PAL 576i which looks significant better than NTSC 480i. :p

Let's hope that they don't close this topic because one or two persons are playing to the person, because closing this topic is exactly what he or she wants = forget this comparison with another awesome screen shadow detail wise, only halleluja to G8. :)

And once again you have shown you hand and revealed that you started the seperate thread, and not just include it on one of the already existing threads, because your purpose is to plant as many seeds of doubt as you can, in the minds of those who might be considering taking a look at the new Pioneers. You want your Inflamatory Bogus Title Thread to stand out on it's own, so that it would get a lot of attention. You have not a shred of remaining evidence to base your Negative Thread on. but you are begging to have it remain open. I notice a few posts ago, you were trying to pretend that the thread got magically started by the owner of a Panasonic panel, when in fact you were the one who created and named the thread. Who do you think you are fooling.

...

Yes it is. Americans don't seem to realize in the main that our SD broadcasts (especially digital satellite) can be pretty incredible in quality - in fact, I usually see little difference between most satellite broadcast HD films (on canal digital film HD anyway) and some very good quality SD channels. Discovery HD, National Geographic HD and Zoom have some exceptional content that blow SD away though but not by the margins that Americans see between their SD and HD channels. I think it's one of the reasons why HD took off so much more quickly in the US - their SD sucks big time so there was more demand.

There's nothing wrong w/HDTV as you've pointed out in the example of Discovery HD, National Geographic HD, Zoom. It is the "compression" of the video source that degradates the signal to such a degree that makes the quality of the broadcast seem close to SD. With all the various cable, satellite & now FIOS companies competing here in the US, it is hard to provide an accurate rating on the broadcast quality in any given area. For me personally, I use Brighthouse Cable w/a SA8300 dual tuner HD STB. On SD, the quality can vary from channel to channel, but mostly the PQ can be near DVD, which is 480P. The SD PQ problem can also be magnified depending on your screen size, and the fact that new digital displays need a clean high rez diet to perform as they were intended.

I think greenland needs a few days vacation from the mods.

Wrong. On that forum people tried to help him to fix his TV. Not just asking him to go and hang himself because of error he made.

No one on this forum asked him to do any such thing, and no one asked him to leave. He proclaimed that he was leaving. All people on this thread did was make him see the errors of how he was tweaking the Pioneer. So, apparently the folks on that other thread were not of much help, since he still kept publishing his wrong information on here as recently as yesterday, and defending his claims. Truth and facts are more important than Disinformation Coddling.

...

I think we should all just kick it back a notch cause we scared away Mr. G. Not very cool, and that's not gonna help anyone. BUT!

I do find it funny "beng beng" the starter of this thread, decided to take it upon himself to find one 'iffy' impression by an owner, give it an 'apocalyptic' name and try to convince everyone he's totally unbiased. Sampo helping out and we got a whirlwind of trouble.

Why don't we start I dunno... taking a look at the many others who have nothing but praises for the plasma?

After Mr. G explained his set up in that post, and things became crystal clear. So no, there's no 'bubble bursting'. And by the way that's a lame use of slang!

Why not put something more straight foward like "Pioneer 8gs?! Not what they seem?!"

It gets to the point. And it's much stronger...

Sorry to 'burst your bubble'. Sounds like something you'd hear from like a Nickelodeon TV show villian back in the 90s.

How about something benign and netural for a thread title, such as:

Pioneer Kuro 8Gen. Plasma Owners Feedback.


.....

Well of course running off and skipping the forum is what is to be expected from a guy who does not like when his false comparisons were challenged and proven wrong. Notice the words he left on, about what he claims he says about Americans. I guess he does not like the fact that we did not all kiss his Arse, and Worship him for being dead wrong on his testing methodology. Good Riddance to an arrogant spreader of false claims. :D


I could have left all this and just ignored it, but the racist thing against Americans is too much!!

I don't know you, and you certainly don't know me, so don't you dare make statements like that!! :mad:



I didn't actually post anything on this forum, I posted it on the UK av forums where I was discussing it with a group of guys who can rationally go through my findings with me, pick up the phone and offer options to get it looking right.
The fact one post was lifted from a 50+ page thread and used here was not through my choice, I do use this forum though and as soon as I saw it I jumped and and took the time to repeat what had already been discussed in the original thread on here as I presumed most of the hot heads wouldn't actually bother to read the original thread??

You did not correct the error of my ways!! You big head!!

I have got my screen looking far, far better, as I said previously, if I had used the settings given in the owners thread on here I can tell you now this screen would have been up for sale tomorrow.

Greenland, why don't you do something useful on this thread, if you have got your Pioneer looking so damned good, take 2 minutes out and write down the settings you are using?
That would be really helpful for me and I will buy you an online beer to say thanks. :)

How about something benign and netural for a thread title, such as:

Pioneer Kuro 8Gen. Plasma Owners Feedback.


.....

Cause we already have one of those... and it's not on Mr. BengBeng's agenda to post someone else's impressions on a thread where there are many more impressions that are so high and mighty. 8g owners thread. Read it sometime guys! :)

Miscommunication kind of made everyone jump on Mr. G so quickly It didn't help w/ the thread title of course. It was a disaster waiting to happen. I'm just trying to jazz it up a little for him. If you want to get flamed, do it w/ style I guess.

I, for one, have found this thread to have value. I've gained a good sense of whose opinions I might trust in the future, and whose I might not trust as much. I have also learned something about the past and current Panasonic generations, as well as - I assume - some valuable information regarding what it takes to make the 8G Pioneers look their best (AND that we cannot necessarily trust what we see in less than ideal situations, e.g., Best Buy, etc.) I am very sorry that gizlaroc left the forum or thread, although I can well understand his reasoning for doing so (I might have done the same thing in his position). I was looking forward to hearing more about his impressions as his 8G broke in.

FWIW, I have an oldish JVC 32" CRT, sometimes watch my brother's 42" Panasonic ED plasma at his house, and have been just sort of biding my time before jumping on the plasma "bandwagon". I'm very curious to read more posts about the 8Gs (or anything else), and to try to figure out whether I should go with something like the 5080, or wait for the Elites or ??? (the "???", in my mind at least for now, seems to be whatever is in between the 5080 and Elites - I guess! The model numbers, and what they mean are quite confusing to me). I'm getting "itchy" too, as I love football, fall baseball, and at least some of the fall TV season.

I was leaving the thread as I felt it was going no where, not the forum.

But when you are being slandered by someone you have very little choice but to come back and defend yourself.

Anyway, I have offered greenland to come back and give something back to this thread and share his settings with everyone, then I am sure when we are all seeing what he is seeing we will all love him forever!! ;)

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/d98b4793eb.jpg

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/d98b4793eb.jpg

Not for me yet :cool:

Well guys it was me, the photos were quick snaps and I was talking about my 'initial impressions'..... nothing more.

But I am still standing by my first view and at the moment the PHD8 has the better overall image.

I just took back my PX70 (same as your PX77) and you can't compare the black levels on that with the Panny 42PHD8, the blacks on the 42PHD8 are in a different league.

To be fair though I have not calibrated the Pioneer yet, but I still believe that the Panny 8 series (commercial as well, not consumer) are just as black when you set them up properly. The Pioneer has much deeper blacks than the consumer panasonics though, which also hate having lights reflecting on them and make them look flat and washed out, so going into best buy the winner will be very clear.

I am waiting for the digital fizz to calm down before giving any further comment, at the moment it looks like it is alive with bright areas on screen, but sure this will go.

Those screen shots were just to show a quick comparison between the two, nothing more, the camera makes the difference seem far more than it is when in the room with them both.


I have tried to take some more screen shots again today, but just not having any joy and can't take any that do it justice.

These shots of the Panny I took a month or so ago and I set the colour balance manually so what I saw on the screen is what I saw in the picture.

http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/colour%201.jpg

http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/phd8%202.jpg


Look guys, no offence here, but these Pioneers are not cheap over here, the 42" is $3600 compared with $1600 for the Panasonic panel, so believe me when I say I will love this screen in the end!! :) It may just take a while.

Reality Check:

You were still standing by your inital claims at midday yesterday. You were not asking about what you might be doing wrong, and what were you missing that you were not getting the Pioneer to perform up to the level that most others were reporting. You said that you were standing by your claims that the old Panasonic was superior.

You did say today that you still agree with the title of this thread, even though it is based on what you had already learned were incorrect claims on you part.

You did say today, that you disparge the people that post on this American forum.

This forum is where you were forced to finally stop standing by you first view, as you put it. This thread was all built on the foundation of your errors. Deal with it. Truth and Facts are the coin of Technology Information Sharing, and are not meant to be sacrificed to the call for Disinformation Coddling.

...

jfz, always a good idea to put your location under your username. That way other Forum members that may have an inside scoop on your local pricing or other helpful info can better direct you. Just a tip...Anyway, if you want more 8G info than you're getting here, you can always click on the AV Forums in the UK and read away.

Reality Check:

You were still standing by your inital claims at midday yesterday. You were not asking about what you might be doing wrong, and what were you missing that you were not getting the Pioneer to perform up to the level that most others were reporting. You said that you were standing by your claims that the old Panasonic was superior.

You did say today that you still agree with the title of this thread, even though it is based on what you had already learned were incorrect claims on you part.

You did say today, that you disparge the people that post on this American forum.

This forum is where you were forced to finally stop standing by you first view, as you put it. This thread was all built on the foundation of your errors. Deal with it. Truth and Facts are the coin of Technology Information Sharing, and are not meant to be sacrificed to the call for Disinformation Coddling.

...


I am still standing by my intital results, at the moment I am still getting more detail out of the PHD8, yeah the Pioneer is looking batter all the time, but at the moment the Panasonic is still the better screen for me.

I am asking you to give me your settings, so I can get it looking as good as yours, why don't you try and help me rather than try and argue??

I was not asking on here as I was getting some superb advice from the guys in the UK, you seem to be ignoring the fact that I never started the thread, I am discussing set up and calibration on the UK forum.
But if you want to pass your settings I may be lucky enough to get an image as good as yours. :rolleyes:

In fact, what screen did you have before the Pioneer Greenland?? Just trying to work out why you are defending your new Pioneer so strongly??

Ok, I have just read through all your last few posts, do you actually own an 8th Gen Pioneer??

I can't see anywhere where you say you have one?? I can see lots of posts telling people they are the best screens available, even posts telling people they are going to be the best screens available, but not one post discussing your screen.

Maybe I have missed the thread or you were so blown away by it you didn't bother to post that you had got it??

I am still standing by my intital results, at the moment I am still getting more detail out of the PHD8, yeah the Pioneer is looking batter all the time, but at the moment the Panasonic is still the better screen for me.

I am asking you to give me your settings, so I can get it looking as good as yours, why don't you try and help me rather than try and argue??


D-Nice is the settings Guru on this thread. I follow his recomendations, and if he does not have the answer, he usually does the leg work and finds them for people. Since you are still more impressed with your old Panasonic after all the "superb advice" that you having been getting over there, why do you even need Pioneer advice. I do find it strange indeed that you would classify advise as being "superb" that did not provide you with the correct Pioneer information.


What is the purpose of it. If you do not like the Pioneer, and you do like the old Panasonic then why not live with the superior Panasonic.

....

D-Nice is the settings Guru on this thread. I follow his recomendations, and if he does not have the answer, he usually does the leg work and finds them for people. Since you are still more impressed with your old Panasonic after all the "superb advice" that you having been getting over there, why do you even need Pioneer advice. I do find it strange indeed that you would classify advise as being "superb" that did not provide you with the correct Pioneer information.


What is the purpose of it. If you do not like the Pioneer, and you do like the old Panasonic then why not live with the superior Panasonic.

....


hahahaha you fecking fraud!! :D

D-Nice is the settings Guru on this thread. I follow his recomendations, and if he does not have the answer, he usually does the leg work and finds them for people. Since you are still more impressed with your old Panasonic after all the "superb advice" that you having been getting over there, why do you even need Pioneer advice. I do find it strange indeed that you would classify advise as being "superb" that did not provide you with the correct Pioneer information.


What is the purpose of it. If you do not like the Pioneer, and you do like the old Panasonic then why not live with the superior Panasonic.

....

Can't you just help him to love his Pioneer as he ask? :rolleyes:

hahaha


Have you got a Pioneer?? Simple question that needs a yes or no answer.

does the 4280 have the anti-reflective screen?

hahaha


Have you got a Pioneer?? Simple question that needs a yes or no answer.

He has 7G pioneer, which is sh*te. And that is greenland's agenda. LOL :D

does the 4280 have the anti-reflective screen?


I don't know, I am in a room with not much light at all so reflections have never been a problem, but when it was in my conservatory it handled reflections far better than my PX70 or the PHD8.
From what I can gather the UK models are the same in all respects apart from some media functions and no memories for ISF day and night.

He has 7G pioneer, which is sh*te. And that is greenland's agenda. LOL :D

Wrong I think he has just 6G Pioneer :D

I am trying my best to upgrade to a PHD8. It is a Pioneer Kuro Slayer, according to one.. Back to the Future. As soon as Panasonic gets wind of this, they will rerelease their PHD8 line to kill the Kuro line. :D

...

No. Panasonic will introduce the real plasma 2.0 at CEATEC 2007. With Panasonic's superior engineering skills compared to lame Pioneer hype "engineering", Panasonic plasma will totally own Pioneer's project HYPE.

Yep until that day :cool:

Why do we need Panasonic plasma 2.0 at Ceatec? Apparently Panasonics older models are outperforming their newer models. Stick OLD SCHOOL.

I personally can't wait how Panasonic answers the Kuro project. But I am sure there will be still owners of Panasonic 8uks and 9uks.. and Pioneer 5070s and 5080s who will claim their TVs better.

Then we can start this whole fun cycle again.

Yep until that day :cool:Guys, please don't rev up the village idiot.

Sampo is like herpes on this forum. There is no cure for him....He's too much of a wuss to actually cause serious harm.....and flares up every now and then causing sever irritation.

I am trying my best to upgrade to a PHD8. It is a Pioneer Kuro Slayer, according to one.. Back to the Future. As soon as Panasonic gets wind of this, they will rerelease their PHD8 line to kill the Kuro line. :D

...

Upgrade what??

Pioneer project Kuro is no issue. The current Panasonic can handle it. 81 Series is another story...

The 81 series... that's coming out this month?

Dude, I'm still waiting on any news on that. I can't wait to see those things as well. But Samsung sure loves to keep us in the dark. But anyway yea, no need for the Panasonic 'bow down' special.

We know how you feel about Pioneer.

If sampo=herpes does greenland=crabs?

Guys, please don't rev up the village idiot.

Sampo is like herpes on this forum. There is no cure for him....He's too much of a wuss to actually cause serious harm.....and flares up every now and then causing sever irritation.

D-Nice. You were wrong about 8G black level measurement. That renders your "information" totally baseless and should be counted as trolling.

Upgrade what??

Don't mind it G. It was an insult more a less. Greenland is passionate about the new Pios too. But I am interested in more of what you find. I am sorry for being questionable w/o ya know making sure you understood I wasn't insulting you.

I am going to PM you to have more questions cause this threads gone to Hell. A good Hell.. but hell none-the-less.

D-Nice. You were wrong about 8G black level measurement. That renders your "information" totally baseless and should be counted as trolling.

Who measured the Pioneers?

I pressed the link and I just saw another forum that wasn't in english.

Who measured the Pioneers?

I pressed the link and I just saw another forum that wasn't in english.

Swedish ISF calibrator.

I am trying my best to upgrade to a PHD8. It is a Pioneer Kuro Slayer, according to one.. Back to the Future. As soon as Panasonic gets wind of this, they will rerelease their PHD8 line to kill the Kuro line. :D

...

I don't mind you trying to tear everything I say to pieces, whatever turns you on, but please don't try and make out I have said things that I haven't, can I ask that much?

I said my initial impressions where not good, and the Panny was the better screen, since then I have made some major advances through forgetting everything I know and have read on the forums and just having a play, I never said that the PHD8 was a Kuro slayer, I said that for me I prefered the overall image of the Panny at first, but did point out I needed to have a proper play and let it do a few hundred hours before deciding. I grabbed PHD back in here and whilst watching the Diana concert there is more finer detail on it than the Pioneer, stubble is more defined, you can see wrinkles on people more clearly than on the Pioneer, it tends to smooth things out more, or maybe it is added sharpening on the Panasonic and I just need to get used to the Pioneer image??

Whatever it is I have said that the set is not going back and I will give it a good chance. With a good feed it looks stunning, the colours now the red and blue have settled down are looking fantastic.

Can I ask you to drop it now please?

I never started this thread, I was asked by loads of people in PMs to post my initial impression of the screen, on a forum full of people I know, it is not my fault someone took one post from the 500 odd on there and put it on here. I took the time out to come on here and answer any questions as it was taken out of context and thought I better step in.
Greenland you just make yourself look daft dragging up a snippet of a quote here and there. So why not drop it now, I don't see what your trying to achieve?

Thanks to the people who have contacted me, especially the long standing members whom I hardly know, I will try and ignore him, but it isn't easy! :rolleyes:

Swedish ISF calibrator.

Can you please.. quote that for me?

Can you please.. quote that for me?

Allow me


"Swedish ISF calibrator"



:D

Can you please.. quote that for me?

"Mätte också befintlig kontrast och den hamnade på 6378:1. Ljusflöde 46 fL vid 100IRE.(Helt vitt)"

http://www.component.se/forum/index.php?showtopic=6774&st=75

Remember that he did contrast ratio measurement with 50% APL(50% of screen is white), so it can't be compared with typical measurements.

equation:

46fL/black level fL=6378:1

black level=0.0072fL

I think we should do as we did in the past....ignore him.

Bingo, the guy is a liar, a troll and does nothing but spread fud.

One thing is for sure; if an experienced plasma owner such as Giz fell afoul of the Pio settings then Joe Average is going to be lost and probably end up with an awful pic.

No, not really. He changed the default settings which had a much higher sharpness level and dropped them to the bottom. Joe Average will not do that and will more than likely wind up with a better picture in the process. ;)

Allow me


"Swedish ISF calibrator"



:D

Hah! But anyway...

Dammit can't anybody who speaks english come out and measure this stuff?!

Can someone translate this comment "Uppmätt kontrast efter kaliberingen blev 8108:1. (Då var Gretagen varm vilken kan göra skillnaden.)"

I think greenland needs a few days vacation from the mods.

Sampo, most on AVS think you need a permanent vacation from here. :rolleyes:

Hah! But anyway...

Dammit can't anybody who speaks english come out and measure this stuff?!

I tried translating the text from swedish to english and its still pretty tough to follow.Hold on a minute and I will paste what it said.

Can someone translate this comment "Uppmätt kontrast efter kaliberingen blev 8108:1. (Då var Gretagen varm vilken kan göra skillnaden.)"

i have no idea but i've e-mailed it to my sister - her BF is a swedish fin :) they're currently in finland so i'm not sure when she'll be able to get it. maybe someone here can translate before then.

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/d98b4793eb.jpg

I've never seen a troll of this magnitude in any forum since I've tuned in to the internet. Sampo, you are a MASTER OF FUD. Time for you to go...again.

Guys, please don't rev up the village idiot.

Sampo is like herpes on this forum. There is no cure for him....He's too much of a wuss to actually cause serious harm.....and flares up every now and then causing sever irritation.


No no no. He is not like Herpes. He is a Con-Genital Wart. :D

First part (it had a word limit):


"OKAY, then drives we.
First wants to I to type that it is Jakob (Colamannen) that is up at customer and do in principle everyone ours kalibreringar, what does that he has more experience around the entire. I also has limited with time to this kalibrering (ca1,5tim). Would probably needed 3-4 hours in order to know me entirely pleased. The display will however omkalibreras when it has rolled a time and then has we hopefully also possibility to come to ISF-lägena. The software for this is not yet on-the-spot.
Our premise was entirely switched off when I the done measurements but since it is light up and nobody dark disposition be in the shop premise so is it nevertheless relatively light.
Begun with measuring on the display that it sees out directly from box in its standard situation. Measured then on it with both the two different färgrymderna that is that tillgå.
Okalibrerat Standardläge with colour held 1."

Second part:


"Okalibrerat Standardläge with colour held 1.
Pioneer_PDP_508XD_before_CIE_Chart.jpg (268.69k) Number of downloads: 14
Okalibrerat Standardläge with colour held 2
Pioneer_PDP_508XD_before_l_ge2_CIE_Chart.jpg (258.41k) Number of downloads: 8
after this so measured I how gammakurvan saw out:
Pioneer_PDP_508XD_before_Luminance_Histogram.jpg (224.71k) Number of downloads: 8
and of course the greyscale.
Pioneer_PDP_508XD_before_RGB_Levels_Histogram.jpg (132.89k) Number of downloads: 6
measured also existing contrast and it ended up on 6378:1. Light flow 46 fL at 100IRE. (entirely wide)
the display is also something överstyrd in the lucidity in sit nolläge. The conclusion is that the display needs kaliberas. It draws conscientiously at blått in the greyscale and standardgammakurvan does not use the performance in full in a dark room. Brightness is also neddragen 3 stages in sit zero may together with it DVR-940HX that I used at kalibreringen. This is natural song done with diligence from Pioneers side in order to distginguish it from earlier models (and competitors) and to print extra on the points that it brilljerar with. (Svärta, djup & skärpa)
Nu började jag kalibrera och det kommer ett inlägg till med detta inom kort..."

"

Yes, so as bad as this thread got. I think that Swedish post as well as Mr. G's impressions can be used for some good here, interesting stuff. For those who are so 'against' what Mr. G's impressions are because of the negative aura this thread had from the beggining (ala the thread name). Make sure you understand what he's saying and everything he's saying... he never intended it to be as bad as "BUBBLE BURST!"

I just had a PM convo, and it cleared things up. All this other "Pioneer rules/Sucks, Pansonic Rules/Sucks" is not necessary. We had our fun now let's steer this thing to something useful.

Can someone translate this comment "Uppmätt kontrast efter kaliberingen blev 8108:1. (Då var Gretagen varm vilken kan göra skillnaden.)"

After calibration contrast was 8108:1(50% APL). Then colors were warm, which could cause chromatic variation.

First part (it had a word limit):


"OKAY, then drives we.
First wants to I to type that it is Jakob (Colamannen) that is up at customer and do in principle everyone ours kalibreringar, what does that he has more experience around the entire. I also has limited with time to this kalibrering (ca1,5tim). Would probably needed 3-4 hours in order to know me entirely pleased. The display will however omkalibreras when it has rolled a time and then has we hopefully also possibility to come to ISF-lägena. The software for this is not yet on-the-spot.
Our premise was entirely switched off when I the done measurements but since it is light up and nobody dark disposition be in the shop premise so is it nevertheless relatively light.
Begun with measuring on the display that it sees out directly from box in its standard situation. Measured then on it with both the two different färgrymderna that is that tillgå.
Okalibrerat Standardläge with colour held 1."

Geesh... that helped. :( hehe. I guess we need to wait for someone in the know of the Swedish language.

does the 4280 have the anti-reflective screen?

Yes it does. It has the same anti-reflective screen the 5080 has. A trip to a local BB will show you how much less reflective the screen is then the competition. There are pictures posted on the 5080 thread with a guy who owns a Fujitsu. The difference is dramatic. :)

I tried translating the text from swedish to english and its still pretty tough to follow.Hold on a minute and I will paste what it said.I'm trying to do the same. it seems as if the people on that forum questioned using a 50% window instead of a 100% window and the poster redid the measurement with a 100% window and the on/off contrast ratio hit 8108:1 (village idiot left this part out). I also do not see anywhere where the poster listed a minimum luminance reading.

After calibration contrast was 8108:1. Then colors were warm, which could cause chromatic variation.

8,108:1 dynamic?

I'm trying to do the same. it seems as if the people on that forum questioned using a 50% window instead of a 100% window and the poster redid the measurement with a 100% window and the on/off contrast ratio hit 8108:1 (village idiot left this part out). I also do not see anywhere where the poster listed a minimum luminance reading.

I didn't see any black level reading either.

8,108:1 dynamic?

I think there isn't a term for full black/50%APL white contrast. Call it dynamic, but it isn't static.

8,108:1 dynamic?No. It's calibrated on/off.

If sampo=herpes does greenland=crabs?

How is that Canon TV working out for you. Have not heard from you in along time. Your Heavy SEDation finally wore of, did it, VFR(Venereal Firing Range)!. :D :D :D