What is the recomended surround speaker height ?, some people say they should ideally be at ear level, but Dolby say they should be 3 feet above ear level, in order to create a more diffuse sound.

What I don't get regarding Dolby's recommendation, is that much of the sound today from the surrounds, is not just a diffused one, but there are many directional cues too, and by putting the surrounds so high above ear level, the pans to the fronts are not very smooth. Not to mention that most bookshelf speakers are meant to be at ear level or below, otherwise their frequency response is screwed.

What is the recomended surround speaker height ?, some people say they should ideally be at ear level, but Dolby say they should be 3 feet above ear level, in order to create a more diffuse sound.

You can elevate your speakers as high as 30 degrees above your seated ear height without problems. If you go too high (say 45 degrees) you might find that you start to lose the directionality of the surrounds...

What I don't get regarding Dolby's recommendation, is that much of the sound today from the surrounds, is not just a diffused one, but there are many directional cues too, and by putting the surrounds so high above ear level, the pans to the fronts are not very smooth. Not to mention that most bookshelf speakers are meant to be at ear level or below, otherwise their frequency response is screwed.

If your worried about the height issue, you can always turn the speakers upside down so that tweeter is closer to the seated ear height. The reason Dolby state that is because what worked for Dolby Pro Logic also works really well for Dolby Digital.

A point to consider however is that even with identical speakers in all channels, your going to hear a difference anyway as sounds are panned around the room. This is due to Head Related Transfer Function - the shape of the human ear and their location on the sides of our heads will affect the way we perceive sound when it comes in from the sides as opposed to in from the front. THX processing addresses this with Timbre Match...

Mark

So, setting the surrounds at ear level is not recommended ?,

How do they setup the surrounds in the audio mixing room of movies ?

I have my surrounds at ear level.

I also use my HT for surround music. It works fine for me.

The rears are farther apart than the mains to open up the soundstage. Similar to a mixing studio I think.

I've read that DVD-AUDIO mixing rooms setup the surrounds at ear levels.

But, I don't know if the surrounds are at ear levels, or above, at movie mixing rooms. From the fact that in all theaters the surrounds are above ear level, I would suspect that the mixing room should be similar, but maybe I'm wrong.

No one has a clue as to how and where the surrounds are set up for music recording. There are no standards, each room is different and often the speaker configuration is changed by each recording engineer.

For movies, however, there are standards, the final mixes are made (over 90% of the time) in a reference room that has been calibrated before the engineers get to it. In these rooms there is no localization in the surround channels and the surround channels are an array of several speakers positioned above ear level (thus preventing localization).

No one has a clue as to how and where the surrounds are set up for music recording. There are no standards, each room is different and often the speaker configuration is changed by each recording engineer.

That is not quite true. I have visited three different studios that all do MC work. All three used the ITU-R for the speaker layouts. Of the three, only one studio had their surrounds mounted high, the other two had them at seated ear level.

What the ITU-R does state is that the surrounds may be elevated to 30 degrees, but generally describes them at ear level.

I currently have my four surrounds on stands at ear level. The only problem with them at this height is the accident factor - they could knocked over.

Over the last 15 years, I've had my surrounds mounted every which way in several different rooms. What I can say is that higher is not always better.

Mark

For some people like myself I mount them 3 feet above ear level n the rear wall simply because my couch is against the wall so I think that the distance from listener should also be taken into account. So this is one case where 3 feet above is better than NONE.

Instead of any particular dimension, try and use that "no more than 30 degrees above ear level" strategy for placing rear speakers. It means that the farther the speakers are away from you, the higher you can mount them. If you think about all the movies you've watched, realize that many times the surround audio is of something overhead. Wind in the trees, helicopters, birds, etc.. Without a little height above your ears, it seems to me that all your spacial perception would be horizontal in the same plane as your ears.

That is not quite true.
Actually, it's quite true. Some may follow the ITU-R. Most do not and those that do, don't for every session. As well, the jackets never reveal the speaker set up during the final mix so you don't even have the opportunity to relocate your speakers to match the mix environment. Hence, from track to track, one does not have a clue.

What is also the case, is the timbre of monopoles is significantly affected by height with respect to the listening position. Hence some speakers may be more, or less, affected by height and you'll just need to hope you have the same ones they used in the mix room (whatever that might have been).

Stand up, then raise the speakers until the tweeter is level with your ear.

Actually, it's quite true. Some may follow the ITU-R. Most do not and those that do, don't for every session. As well, the jackets never reveal the speaker set up during the final mix so you don't even have the opportunity to relocate your speakers to match the mix environment. Hence, from track to track, one does not have a clue.

The three that I visited looked to be pretty much set in place. The one with the wall mounted surrounds was definitely not changing anything in the room.

What is also the case, is the timbre of monopoles is significantly affected by height with respect to the listening position. Hence some speakers may be more, or less, affected by height and you'll just need to hope you have the same ones they used in the mix room (whatever that might have been).

Powered M&KTHX150s, Powered Yamahas and something from JBL (Sub/Sat).

Good points though, unless you have the same speakers, your not hearing what they heard...

Mark

If you think about all the movies you've watched, realize that many times the surround audio is of something overhead. Wind in the trees, helicopters, birds, etc.. Without a little height above your ears, it seems to me that all your spacial perception would be horizontal in the same plane as your ears.

You can use the same argument to claim that placing the speakers high above ear level, will cause all the sounds that should not be above you, to sounds like they come above you.

I think that in the theater, because the rear surrounds are so far from the listeners, the sound does not sound like it comes from above you. But, in home environments, when the rear speakers are pretty close to you, placing them above you make it sound like the sounds originate above you, and this screws up front-rear pans.

Moreover, as I said before, bookshelf speakers are meant to be heard with the tweeter at ear level or below. Otherwise, the sound from the speakers will have an emphasis on lower frequencies.

You can use the same argument to claim that placing the speakers high above ear level, will cause all the sounds that should not be above you, to sounds like they come above you.

Tom Holman wrote about that in his book "Surround Sound - 5.1 Up and Running" in regards to raised surrounds where some engineers don't like mixing TV shows with an audience because it sounds like the audience is above, not around you...

Mark

I have to admit I do not understand the need to locate the surrounds in a way that will allow them to produce *only* diffused sounds. It seems like a phrase from the good old days of Dolby Pro Logic.

It seems like the audio mix in many AC3/DTS movies is contradictory to this rule too, and puts very discrete sounds into the surrounds, that creates a true 360 degrees soundfield, where you can pinpoint the location of everything in it (except ambient sound).

The argument that putting the rear speakers at ear level, do not allow to create diffused sounds when needed, is purely false. We all use our front speakers at ear levels (or a bit bellow), and still not every sound that comes out of the front speakers can be localized directly to a point in the front sound stage, it is totally dependent in the wish of the director. The front two speakers can give a lot of ambient sound that is not localized at all, when needed.

It seems like nobody really sat to understand why people think that surrounds should be above ear levels for AC3/DTS mixes, rather everybody just seem to follow the herd without asking questions.

I have read that two (2) to three (3) feet above ear level is appropriate. In my theater. they are mounted thirty (30) inches above the average ear level of the folks in my house. They sound great to us....

jkv makes a good point. If it sounds good to you, it sounds good to you. Surround height perhaps should be determined experimentally. Find a great scene for surround effects in some movie. Put your surrounds at ear level and watch. Now raise the surrounds, say 1', and watch that scene again. Any better? If better, then raise the surround another foot and watch again. If worse, put them back at ear level and be done with it. Keep experimenting until it sounds the best to you. Then permanently mount the speakers at that height.

I totally agree that doing what sounds best is ultimatelly the best idea. But why stop here ?, why not try to put the front speakers higher than ear level, I mean, if it sounds better...

I have to admit I do not understand the need to locate the surrounds in a way that will allow them to produce *only* diffused sounds. It seems like a phrase from the good old days of Dolby Pro Logic.

A good point, but remember that everything in both real cinema and HT is still based on those days. All that has happened really is that we have upgraded the format decoders. Whilst source material has improved, the speakers, and the room layout/acoustics has not changed...

It seems like the audio mix in many AC3/DTS movies is contradictory to this rule too, and puts very discrete sounds into the surrounds, that creates a true 360 degrees soundfield, where you can pinpoint the location of everything in it (except ambient sound).

But again, the environment where the soundtracks are created has remained the same as it was from the late 1970's. And today, the surrounds are still mixed and monitored through arrays...

Mark

Hey Jones!

I've tried both and I find 6' up and angled slightly down more convincing as far as envelopment. As with most (?) setups, my surrounds are closer than the fronts and right at ear level is somewhat distracting.
I don't find it "diffuse" at all, though, especially on MC music like "Dark Side of The Moon"...the effects are positioned all around me but each is quite distinct.

A point to consider however is that even with identical speakers in all channels, your going to hear a difference anyway as sounds are panned around the room. This is due to Head Related Transfer Function - the shape of the human ear and their location on the sides of our heads will affect the way we perceive sound when it comes in from the sides as opposed to in from the front.
Not to mention the fact that surrounds are usually in very different acoustic environments.
Mounted on a wall, perhaps near a ceiling corner or even tri-corner.

I totally agree that doing what sounds best is ultimatelly the best idea. But why stop here ?, why not try to put the front speakers higher than ear level, I mean, if it sounds better...

What I did for my LCR was this; I have an AT screen and I placed the center behind the screen 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the screen. I have floor standing LR speakers and I set those up such that the tweeters of the LR spearkers are on the same plane as the center. That setup, and the surrounds as mentioned above, really sound great for *my* room. You can try starting with that arrangement for your room and tweak as suggested by 4dthinker has suggested. Nothing is set in stone and you have to spend the time to make it sound right for you.