The 3DLP 1080p war has begun. According to the link a F80 prototype can achieve 50000:1. We are talking about 3DLP and 1080p.
http://www.cepro.com/article/projectiondesign_a_new_projector_company_with_a_rich_legacy/

The home theater oriented product will be called M80.

Thanks Ohlson, very interesting read. I sure would like to know more about the lumens at 50k, but obviously premature.

Jim

From the link:
“Because we can,” Eriksen says. “People buy on spec. If they have a choice between a 5,000 or 50,000:1 contrast ratio, they’ll want the 50,000.” So true, and so sad.
Sad? Only if you don't know how to put 50000:1 to good use. ;)

Does not look like they are using anything different from the other manufactures. Most 3 chip DLPs huver around 5 to 6k:1. If they can do 10k:1 they've got something but I doubt we will see that unless they end up doing something different. Possibly an iris?

Alan G.
The projector should have a great native contrast. It will implement DynamicBlack. Exactly how this is implemented is not know to me but my guess is some kind of clever auto iris with a very fast operation.

Any pricing?

That is exciting, but need to know lumens before getting too carried away...

Mark

Well thinking of it's dualarch tech (2 lamps) I'm certain lumen will be plenty!!

Shovven

It sounds like an interesting projector for sure. One thing that is consistent with projectiondesign is that they are an innovative company who believe in high quality and want to test the boundaries.

They introduced the most advanced single chip DLP with two lamps and two wheels with a choice of six high grade lens options.

I think this new 3DLP machine with HDMI 1.3 connections, two lamps and a different architecture to convention in implementing the chip is something new. For now, 50,000:1 seems a far fetched figure especially with DLP but if this thing is getting close to that figure with ample brightness to light up a 14 feet wide 2.35:1 screen then we have a great product.

The software for remote connectivity to the projector for dealers is also something unique as far as I know. It makes it really convenient and saves the hassle for the projector being taken to the dealer or vice-versa unless it is a hardware defect. This is something which may well be adopted by others as well.

projectiondesign is a very good company and I am really looking forward to their new 3DLP model.

I can't imagine that this won't be the TI demo at CEDIA ! Awesome !! Thanks for the link Mattias.

Art

Definitely have my eye on this as the next stepping stone... :D

Mark

I called her on the "So sad" remark in the comments, and she claims it was an exaggeration". She agrees that the difference between 5000:1 and 50000:1 is visible. I guess there's no accounting for bad writing! :)

Definitely have my eye on this as the next stepping stone... :D

Mark

Unfortunately for me it looks like the stones are really close together these days. :eek: :D

Art

The M80 will use 2x220W lamps. The commercial F80 is 2x300W according to Projektoren datenbank. The filter comment in the article is understanable in the context that you can get your projector with DCI color gamut. HD-SDI is also an option. Sadly the M80 is not an option for me, even the M25 would be a stretch since I am careful with money. In an informal comment from "PD" M25 will ship first and M80 was timetabled for later this year. That might be optimistic. I guess CEDIA will tell more about availability.

Sadly the M80 is not an option for me, even the M25 would be a stretch since I am careful with money.

We don't know how much they will cost yet...?

Mark_H
One of our forum friends here at avs was given a vague answer at Infocom, between 30k and 60k. I like to guess so I guess M80 will cost more than Sim2 HT5000, the single bulb version.

I know I can not afford the M80. I could buy the M25, it is within reach so who knows what happens but there is plenty of competition out there. Still an exciting hobby though, always something new on the horizon. With 3DLP at 1080p many will soon be cured from upgraditis.

I was considering passing on CEDIA but not now.Was this shown at Infocom ?

Art

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=864418

Projectiondesign had their new Cineo30 1080p 1-chip DLP (6500 lumens) and F80 1080p 3-chip DLP (8000 lumens) on active display. Both looked great but when I squeezed a rep for the price and date for the F80, all he would say was "before the end of Q1" and "over $30K and under $60K." Some help he was.

Some more info in the end of the thread. Maybe dicey or others that visited Infocomm has some more to add?

Well that says something. Guessing then it could be shipping in 8 months and will be 30 to 60K.

Art

The reference to the Cineo30 is also interesting. I'd certainly consider upgrading to a 2-3x brighter Cineo (perhaps I can even get mine modified) if the price was right compared to the cost of the F80 particularly if the F80 specs turn out to be exaggerated...

Mark

You beat me to it Matias. Interesting development, to say the least.

I wouldn't be surprised if the F80 is a tad over $50 K considering what is present in the package. Their single chip flagship DLP is around $25 K but when one considers the offerings on the F80, then it seems to be something special in its category.

I've also read that the software facilitates dealers for remote calibration of the system by checking the readings and getting into the system settings. It might not be ideal where it is possible to get professional calibrators but in most areas of the world this is a really unique and brilliant feature.

This projector could bring a revolution to 1080p 3DLP what the JVC did to LCOS with wiregrid polarizers. However, I do humbly disagree with the projectiondesign people when they say that they can manufacture with low costs just like China because their high end projectors are surely on the expensive side by global standards. :D

I think the projector will be released for the masses before the turn of the year but it is best to get a confirmation from the people in Norway directly as they are very helpful and prompt.

As I wrote before most of you will probably want go with M80, the home theater implementation of the platform.

CINERMAX
I guess you like available features such as
Possible filtering towards DCI color gamut
Very precise calibration tools
Dual lamp, since the cr seems to be ok :)
DynamicBlack
HD-SDI option

Choice of lenses

You beat me to it Matias. Interesting development, to say the least.

I thought you said you didn't like TIs Dynamic Black implementation at Infocomm last year.

That was on a single chipper I am sure it is a more sophisto device due to the complicated light path.

alan
Does not look like they are using anything different from the other manufactures. Most 3 chip DLPs huver around 5 to 6k:1. If they can do 10k:1 they've got something but I doubt we will see that unless they end up doing something different. Possibly an iris?

yes seams that is only possible with a iris or
with something that is very similar.
anyway thats very interesting because combine
the "high dlp ansi cr." with the high on/off cr. from the new jvc sound great :)

W.Mayer
It seems from the linked article that they are doing something of their own as far as the light path is concerned, have you read that? A tweak from 5-6k:1 up to 10k+:1 and then DynamicBlack on that and you get at least a high number for on off.
Is your Christie installaed by now?

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/F80.JPG

Preliminary brochure only claims 10000:1 with Dynamic Black.

Preliminary Brochure for F80 1080p pdf. (http://www.hcinema.de/pdf/projectiondesignf801080-en.pdf)

Here is also the preliminary brochure for the small 1chip Action! M25 1080p:
http://www.projectiondesign.com/admin/common/GetImg.asp?FileID=2419

coolscan
Remember that F80 is the commercial model. The home theater model, M80, should / could have a different balance of brightness and contrast. Nice to see a big picture of the unit.

That's true as you say Ohlson.

F80; High brightness PRO version 10000:1.
M80; "lower brightness" HT version 50000:1.

What ever numbers really come true we can be pretty sure they differ by some margin for the different markets.

Grrrr. We want HIGH BRIGHTNESS *and* HIGH CONTRAST.

That's true as you say Ohlson.

F80; High brightness PRO version 10000:1.
M80; "lower brightness" HT version 50000:1.

Is this speculation or do you have some source of information?

Thanks,

Mark

Is your Christie installaed by now?

yes since about 4 months i have them and i like it :)

Is this speculation or do you have some source of information?

Thanks,

Mark

Little bit of both.

A rep. for PD called the F80 "a high brightness version" of the M80 on a norwegian forum.

Assuming the specs. in the preliminary brochure for F80 is correct, and the quotes and facts backing it, in the CE pro article is correct, then it is/is not speculation.

projectiondesign is not known for "bragging up" preliminary paperspecs that is way beyond reality. But before I see a PD rep. stating 50000:1 in writing, it's far from certain, only words from a journalist.

It's a good looking projector IMO. :cool:

Little bit of both.

A rep. for PD called the F80 "a high brightness version" of the M80 on a norwegian forum.

Assuming the specs. in the preliminary brochure for F80 is correct, and the quotes and facts backing it, in the CE pro article is correct, then it is/is not speculation.

projectiondesign is not known for "bragging up" preliminary paperspecs that is way beyond reality. But before I see a PD rep. stating 50000:1 in writing, it's far from certain, only words from a journalist.

Haroon:

Are you refering to this one?
http://www.cepro.com/images/slideshow/projectiondesign/6projectiondesign.070500.projectiondesign_M25_front.jpg

That is a single chipper.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/F80.JPG


Qualio,

I was referring to the picture above which is the 3DLP model [M80/F80]. I personally don't like the shape of the new small 1DLP model [M25]. It's quite ugly IMO due to the large lens paired with the small chassis. It looks like a frog with one big eye staring at you. :p

The lens aperture of the new 3DLP seems to be slightly smaller at first sight when compared to the lens of the Action! Model 3 1080 & Cineo 1080 projectors.

That's true as you say Ohlson.

F80; High brightness PRO version 10000:1.
M80; "lower brightness" HT version 50000:1.

Very nice if the low brightness version has > 2000 lumens.

Art

PD is very innovative and makes reliable products. they still struggle to penetrate the HT market but have success with other markets.
50000:1 surely would not be simultaneous to high lumens but if it can do 1500lumens and that CR ratio (together with the massive ansi contrast that puts DLP way above LCOS)
then it's REALLY interesting. NO ONE even Meyer needs :D 8000ansi at home.
I'd say 2000ansi would be great for up to 400cm mp screens(especially those SResearch "i eat light' screens)

If only PDesign could do a mono ship with lens shifts and a bit larger than the M25 and with a great remote control and for $5000. :D but this isn't cheap stuff made in Malaysia.

to round it up we have in the 1080p basket: (and 4K):
CHRISTIE 3DLP around $50K ??
PANASONIC 1080p 3DLP around $65K (10000ansi 5000:1)
M80 50000:1 (unproven) lumens ? $45K lets say ?
JVC 4K LCOS no price yet ($30K ?) 4000ansi 12000:1
SONY RX 105 4K 2000:1 (checked by Meyer) 5000lumens ? $55K + lens
SIM2 HT5000 5000:1 1200ansi lumens $50K (too dim !)

Art which one will it be ? :D
i'd go with a 3DLP. something like +20000:1 @ +700ansi CR @ 2500lumens
if money was no issue

2000 lumes isn't enough, particularly if a mechanical iris is involved. With the Cineo (2500+ lumens) I cannot fully close the iris on my screen (15' wide scope) - and the iris opens further (lower contrast ratio!) as the bulbs dim. I am looking for the M80/F80 as my next machine and will happily swallow all the lumens they can provide...

Mark

I agree I was referring to lumens at max on /off contrast.

Art

I remember seeing MI3 in a digital theater with a BARCO 1280 3DLP (it was not a 2K)
we were at last row. at no moment we complained about the black level...
screen was around 15meters wide (50ft :D ). these machines give about 600:1 ansi and
2000:1 on off and around 10000-15000ansi i'd guess (i have to check)
the absence of black bars plays a major role.... and the ansi contrast which is excellent on DLP, far better than LCOS and CRT.
I saw SUNSHINE (amazing film, released next week in the US) with a BARCO 2K 3DLP at Kinepolis on a 15m screen but we sat too close (often we had to put our hands on the eyes during the super bright moments of the film , you'll see !!!). i spot some dithering because we were too close (less than 1x the with for sure !!!). further away would have been better.

the real issue is the price with the LCOS invasion: if we can get a 1080 3DLP for $8-10,000 (each has his own values and budgets) and on off 4000:1, ansi 600:1 or more and 2500ansi lumens, who can complain ???? (for a 14ft cinemascope screen)
this would be a volume maker !!!! if OPTOMA and BENQ can do mono DLP for $2999-$3500....

Optima and BenQ are both marginal companies and are bottom price companies. Their product offerings are bottom level too.

When you want something closer to state of the art these two companies are not on anyone's credible list.

Most will not need more than 1500-2000 ansi lumens D65 calibrated. DLP is still the ansi contrast winner and given the advancements constantly being made DLP's full contrast is and will continue to be better. Unless things change DLP is the only real large screen high quality image producer. LCOS/SXRD is big and bright but soft and fuzzy. Part of this it due to these manufacturers choice to sell at the bottom tier. There are a lot of compromises needed to be made to sell down there and all of them effect the image in a bad way.

DLP on the other hand is becoming like CRT used to be. The darling technology of the true videophile.

Most will not need more than 1500-2000 ansi lumens D65 calibrated.Wow, where can I get me one of those! :) I'd love to have it. Three-chip DLP seems to be the only way to get it. And it's really rather cool that they're keeping the contrast high too.

Art which one will it be ? :D
i'd go with a 3DLP. something like +20000:1 @ +700ansi CR @ 2500lumens
if money was no issue

Seeing that I have an HT 5000 downstairs that has yet to be installed, 17fL on a 14' wide screen will have to be enough for now.

If we actually end up with those specs in a real world set up it would be a no brainer.

Art

so you did buy it ?? wow.
at that price shouldn't it be 3000ansi 15000:1 ? (ansi CR is reach ok :D )

Seeing that I have an HT 5000 downstairs that has yet to be installed, 17fL on a 14' wide screen will have to be enough for now.

If we actually end up with those specs in a real world set up it would be a no brainer.

Art

Goes without saying that we need a fresh thread with lots of pics and measurements.

I can't wait to live vicariously through you in 3-DLP heaven. You lucky SOB! :D

to round it up we have in the 1080p basket: (and 4K):
CHRISTIE 3DLP around $50K ??
PANASONIC 1080p 3DLP around $65K (10000ansi 5000:1)
M80 50000:1 (unproven) lumens ? $45K lets say ?
JVC 4K LCOS no price yet ($30K ?) 4000ansi 12000:1
SONY RX 105 4K 2000:1 (checked by Meyer) 5000lumens ? $55K + lens
SIM2 HT5000 5000:1 1200ansi lumens $50K (too dim !)

Art which one will it be ? :D
i'd go with a 3DLP. something like +20000:1 @ +700ansi CR @ 2500lumens
if money was no issue

Not 1080p but true 2k (better fill ratio) and hdcp compatible.

None of the above solutions will give you the color of the Barco DP1500. Custom modded 3,800 on off, 3,500 ansi.

http://cineramax.com/images/DP2000.jpg

It is the only projector with Servo Lens Memories opening up all kinds of screen AR variant possibilities (CIH, CIW,CI Area), and negating the need for the anamorphic lens and false stretch.

In theory it is the purists projector. You are looking under $100K.

Goes without saying that we need a fresh thread with lots of pics and measurements.

I can't wait to live vicariously through you in 3-DLP heaven. You lucky SOB! :D

I will do that. In about three weeks things will get going.

Art

so you did buy it ?? wow.
at that price shouldn't it be 3000ansi 15000:1 ? (ansi CR is reach ok :D )

I got tired of waiting. After seeing the 5000 in my theater I was ready to move to what it can give me.

Art

the barco have no hdcp. :mad:

they talk since years that they may odopt it but till today no pr.
have it.

all christie pr. include the cinema units have it.

"It is the only projector with Servo Lens Memories opening up all kinds of screen AR variant possibilities (CIH, CIW,CI Area), and negating the need for the anamorphic lens and false stretch."

that must be a optic part that is in the pr.
i like to know how barco do it.
if it works its the best solution.

btw. the new small cinema chip 0,98" 2048x1080 have a better cr.
(both on /off and ansi) compare to the old big 1.3"version but the pr.
manufacturer use that not for more cr. they use it for more light output.

Definitely exciting times in HT

the barco have no hdcp. :mad:

they talk since years that they may odopt it but till today no pr.
have it.

btw. the new small cinema chip 0,98" 2048x1080 have a better cr.
(both on /off and ansi) compare to the old big 1.3"version but the pr.
.

The Projector by itself may not be HDCP but with the ASC-2048 (http://www.barco.com/digitalcinema/en/products/product.asp?gennr=1808)

Alternative content switcherMain Page Features Specs Downloads
As the ideal peripheral for all digital cinema installations, the ACS-2048 is an 8x1 switcher that accepts "universal" input formats, and outputs 12-bit twin DVI at 2048 x 1080 - one of the digital cinema standards. With a high-quality scaler at its core, upconverting any input format is as simple as "auto-acquiring" and selecting the desired input.
However, disguised as a switcher, ACS-2048 is really a pathway to new revenue streams for your facility. By enabling "alternate" content to be displayed in the digital cinema resolution, your theater's role as a presentation facility for events, businesses, conventions, town-hall meetings and so much more - becomes a reality.

Key benefits
"Universal" inputs support HD/SDI, SD-SDI, DVI, Analog, Composite, and S-video formats
Twin link 12-bit DVI outputs upconvert all inputs to 2048 x 1080
Motion adaptive de-interlacing and advanced noise reduction circuits are employed throughout to maintain superb image quality
User-friendly front panel provides intuitive "local" control
Integration with the Communicator's touch screen provides seamless remote control capability
A standard HDCP (High-Bandwidth Digital Content Protection) "decrypted input" and "encrypted output" path enables copy-protected content to be displayed at digital cinema resolutions, while maintaining the highest degree of security for the copyright holder.This feature will be activated shortly after it's introduction.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re contrast ratio: The aperture plate is the ticket for this. I am going to play with one using a 67% reduction here:

http://cineramax.com/images/New-Projection-Porthole.jpg

Maybe I get 4k:1 then.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the love of god.
Stop using that POS camera and stop posting its output.
It's beyond hideous and it cheapens your message.

If you want to talk quality, then you have to walk quality Mr. Qualio...

Ok but can you allow me to do the proper research. Anyways putting new batteries have cleaned up most of th eproblem, I am sure if I clean the lens that has been subjected to clouds of ground airborne cement may help. As I am getting crash courses in electric, mechanical and structural engineering to meet some very tight deadlines.

Just tell us what camera you're looking for, budget and we'll find one for you.
There's lots of brainpower/experience on this board to help you.

If you just want a nice compact, easy to use picture taker, you can't go wrong with any of the Canon Elphs.

Inexpensive 300$, wide angle only, able to capture good internal shots. Thanks.

The panasonic LUMIX FX 100 (http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/14523/panasonic-lumix-dmc-fx100/) looked great and does video in 1080p plus had a extra strong flash.

I'll agree, on paper (or screen ;)), that Panasonic looks great!
Leica f2.8 28mm lens is a good thing.

If you want to get freaky wideangle internal shots like these:
http://www.longrealty.com/Listing/ListingDetail.aspx?Search=2f4482dd-fd0b-4c7b-a5c0-c7f9c41e8f67&Listing=23326249&IRPAgentID=9302766&Image=1&First=1&Last=3&pagesize=10&SearchType=&ListingDistrictTypeID=&FirstLetter=&Sort=6&Cookies=

You'll need an SLR (Canon XTi in my case) and an EF-S 10-22mm f3.5-4.5 lens.

For casual internal shots, however, the 28mm Panasonic will suffice.

Some preliminary specs from one site. Note I doubt the lumen value since I think the M80 will use dual 220W bulbs. Perhaps 4000-6000 ANSI lumen for M80 who knows?
http://www.projektoren-datenbank.com/pro/

Ohlson or anybody, what's DynamicBlack anyway? Is it somekind IRIS control thing?

PD's projectors have irs inside, but 50000:1 is still too high. It refers to the full on full off CR. We really need to know the ANSI CR.