Think of this thread as a calm in the storm - immune from the typical surround processor wars that goes on here.

How about explaining why you have bought and chosen your surround processor(s).

Lets understand that if anyone says "mine sound better than brand X" that its merely that person's subjective opinion and that's all it is.

Lets avoid personal critiques. If anyone wants to attack me in this thread, in this thread I will ignore and not respond. It would be nice if everyone would agree to this for this thread. :eek:

From the Halcro thread here at this forum, by Jeff The Bland:

I owned a Citation surround processor... I changed.

I owned a Meridian 565....I changed.

I owned a Lexicon MC-12B....I changed.

I now own the Halcro SPP-100.......???

I think the difference here is Steve has had his one CB for alomst 10 years. He's marrried to it. In that time, I have had 4 surround processors. I have never found a 'superior' product. Just a great product at the time in my system. That's why I have always flipped pieces out of my system. Any piece I have ever owned is great at first and then I look for something incrementally better after I tire of it..

The main reason I went to the Halcro and not the updated Lexicon was 2 fold:

1. I did not like the trade up program. Thought it far too expensive for what you got. Moreover, no 1080P and only 5.1 LPCM rather than 7.1.

2. I had heard good things about the Halcro from my dealer (who also sells Lexicon). The cost was not much more than the cost I would have paid Lexicon for the upgrade. So, for me, it was an invitation to try a new piece.

*Note I did not change because I was unhappy with the sound of the Lexicon. Had the upgrade plan met my expectations mentioned above, I probably would've gone with Lexicon again.. Do I prefer the sound of the Halcro now? Yes.. In my system, it sounds a bit smoother. That said, in another system the Lexicon may come out on top. THe Lexicon is a reference piece. I considered Theta but there lack of any digital (HDMI) solution made them easy to quickly dismiss.

I really like the sound of the Halcro. But as my history suggests, I am always open to any product from any manufacturer at any time. THere is ALWAYS something new and better on the horizon and I won't ever pigeon hole myself to any one manufacturer.

Hope that explains what you asked, Steve...:)

Also from the Halcro thread at this forum:


Jeff, thanks, that makes great sense for you.

Now, I really haven't stayed with the same surround processor. Your surround processors weren't upgradeable, essentially becoming new ones with new and better features and sonics, except for your Lex MC-12. Mine has been. If Theta hadn't provided this with a reasonable upgrade path pricewise as well, I certainly would have switched, too.

I owned a Denon preamp/processor - - - I changed.

I owned a Citation 7.0 surround processor. Citation promised a reasonable price upgrade for the new Dolby Digital and DTS formats - they didn't provide it. I changed.

I owned a Theta Casablanca 1 surround processor, with the new DD and DTS formats.

Next when offered I added a Circle Surround 1 card - man did that help with Dolby Digital 2.0 stuff and I liked it for music CDs, too.

Next I changed to a new and better surround processor, better sounding.
The new Theta CB2, which was upgraded from my Theta CB1. Instead of paying for a new surround processor and selling my old one at a big loss, I did the upgrade for a very reasonable price. Felt like getting a brand new processor and ditching the old one, which wasn't nearly as good sonically or functionally.

Next I upgraded from Superior to Extreme DACs, so my Theta CB2 sounded appreciably better especially on redbook CD.

Next new sonic formats were out, DPL2, CS2, DTS Neo. And with multi-channel SACD and DVD-Audio, I wanted a surround processor which would do this without compromising audio quality. Not only did my Theta CB2 not have multi-channel analog inputs, but its two channel analog input, although excellent by industry standards, just didn't satisfy me. And functionally the CB2 still had too often operating quirks. Was I going to have to sell the CB2 at a big loss and they buy a new surround processor? I waited, waited, waited/patience/patience/patience, longer/longer/longer as Theta promised that they were providing all of this and at a really reasonable upgrade price - and Theta came through with the CB3 with Six Shooter.

Now with HD DVD yes I would like HDMI for multi-channel audio. Theta promises they are providing it at reasonable cost - in time. Waiting/waiting/waiting and longer/longer/longer. What else is new? Just like before. And I have confidence Theta will complete this - slow but surely - at reasonable cost. Meanwhile, thanks to my Six Shooter, my HD DVD using the player's multi-channel analog outs sound tremendous, and may only get better once Theta does the HDMI thing.

If as Jeff says I am "married" to my Theta, its because despite setbacks and delays, Theta has still earned my trust audiowise/sonics, cost and features. And of course upgradeability and new features. Isn't that what its about??? Like a long marriage, trust and devotion have to be worked at and earned, and Theta has done that despite delays and setbacks along the way.

Regarding whether I should sell my CB3 and Six Shooter now and say move to the Halcro (supposedly about to offer multi-channel PCM via HDMI) or the Lexicon MC-12 with multi-channel HDMI: In my own subjective way, I don't feel that either of those processors will offer me the sonics and flexibility that I like in my system AND given the reasonable monetary upgrade path Theta has provided all these years it wouldn't be worth it financially either. You've heard both Bulldogger and me rave about the Six Shooter and it deserves to be raved about, including using it for HD DVD multi-channel analog audio.

But the bottom line is each of us makes our own choices. Its our system. Our money. But you non-Theta folks just don't and probably will never get it.
Its like why am I still married for now 25+ years to someone single forever or married three times already. Not like my marriage has been easy. Patience and understanding doesn't always give you quite as much pleasure at times along the way but in the end may reward you much more - in marriage, and with your surround processor company. It has for me.

Meridian 861.

For easy and total upgradability. Easy upgradability when you are not doing a major upgrade between major revisions, as in adding new cards, etc. It has room correction, bass management, etc, and a program interface that allows you to customize all its parameters that is very simple to use IMO (as long as you have a laptop or computer you can hook up to it with a serial interface, or USB adapted interface). The program also allows you to customize everything and map out your entire system on it. It even allows you to specify, not only how far away a speaker is, but its general angle (at least visually, I'm not sure if it actually changes the sound) as well.

It also sounds excellent, as Meridian products often do...

Proceed AVP2+6 for me...a timely classic with near unsurpassed music reproduction. My thoughts could be summed up by these threads:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8141318&&#post8141318
Over $6000

Proceed AVP2 (Used price under $2500)

Absolutely superb and well built piece with much trickle down technology from the $30,000 Levinson N0. 40. DACs and the 4 DSPs are essentially the same. This piece is a GREAT analogue preamp and close to the very best available, when you know how to set it for passthrough. As a "DAC" with it's differential L/R DACs and FIFO jitter reduction, it is as good as I have ever heard. The detail is amazing, yet it retains it's musicality, mids are free of any discernable colouration and the imaging and soundstage are beyond reproach. For movies, very secondary to me, it's extremely detailed and very enveloping. This is great kit.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10740016&&#post10740016
The best music pre-pro's:

(1) Proceed AVP-2: By far my favorite music pre-pro for both analog and digital signals. The smoothest most natural music presentation I have heard from a surround pre-amp and will best a lot of 2 channel pre's. A solid upgrade over the original AVP which was a excellent performer in it's own right. The proceed derived surround music mode is the best I have heard in that it is natural sounding and bests Meridian's Tri-Field IMO. While not the best for movies if I were a 75% music 25% movie guy this would probably be the one I keep.

Overall best for movies and music that suits me:


(1)The Halcro off all the pre-pro's listed is the best for me as I am about 70% movies and it still floors me after about 3 months. While I wish it sounded more like the AVP-2 for music it's movie performance I could never give up. It is hard to say a $10,000 pre-pro is worth it but I don't regret it one bit. To be honest I could have saved a couple of grand and just got the SSP-80 since the LCD screen and line doubler of the SSP-100 is of no use to me and from what I have heard they sound identical. I am anxious for the LPCM upgrade that will hopefully come soon. Even without the upgrade though I could not imagine owning another pre-pro (If anyone from Halcro is reading this then I meant to say I want it ASAP and am considering buying your most hated competitors pre-pro out of spite )

(2) The Proceed AVP-2 performance with music makes you want to listen to more music. Even though I am more of a movie guy the AVP-2 does not stray too far from the other pre-pro's (except the Halcro) for movie performance. Overall the AVP-2 is a great all around performer and at the current used prices of $2,500 to $3,000 might be considered a deal.


I could not be happier with my processor, even though it doesn't have all the connectivity as the Halcro SSP's. I will eventually upgrade to the Halcro and keep the Proceed for a 2-channel music room.

my current setup:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f38/ssabripo/DIY%20Ava18%20subs/my_ht_setup.jpg

I made my own. All I watch is sports in mono. Sound comes out of my center channel fine, Its the only speaker I have other than four custom built 2000 watt subs soos I can hear those NFL linemen hit each other. Built me a nice 19th order low pass, It might now only be a 18th order because a coil fell off last week during a bass transient. still works fine though.

Well going forward I think the best surround processor is no surround processor!

I'm planning to take 7.1 analog from BluRay and send it thorugh a tube 8 channel preamp. My crossover is tube as well as all the LCR amplification in a BiAmp mode. I'll build a relay switch to switch back the the Lexicon DC1 for 5.1 but 7.1 analog from the DVD player direct is the cleanest path.

Well going forward I think the best surround processor is no surround processor!

I'm planning to take 7.1 analog from BluRay and send it thorugh a tube 8 channel preamp. My crossover is tube as well as all the LCR amplification in a BiAmp mode. I'll build a relay switch to switch back the the Lexicon DC1 for 5.1 but 7.1 analog from the DVD player direct is the cleanest path.

Damn that sounds fantastic!!! Its like my Theta Six Shooter on steroids. Glimmie is one talented home theater nut.

I personally don't like the harmonics that tubes add because of their zero crossing behavior, but I know a lot of people do.

I got a mid-end consumer AVR, and use it as a pre-pro; the Sony STR-DA5200ES. I got it because it was the most affordable that would do 1080p to HDMI, and it has a nice GUI (that I almost never use). Also, because it's RCA out, I hook an 8-channel Ebtech LLS into it to send the signal across the room; balanced == good! My amps live in my speakers (Genelec 8040A 6.1 system with 7070A cross-over and sub), and I also spent money on the room, rather than on the AVR/switching. My main complaint is that I only have 3 HDMI ins, but 5 HDMI capable sources, so I'll have to go through component and S/PDIF for two of them.

I don't own one now. I sold my Lex MC-8 because I knew I was building a new house, and the "transition" house wasn't going to have a home theater. I like reading these threads because, 12-15 months when it's time to select one, I'll hear about a lot of first-hand experience.

On my objective feature list includes HDMI multichannel PCM support, good controllability (RS232/Crestron/etc.), good matrix processing for stereo sources. Room correction will be nice as well because I won't have the luxury of a perfect room, but I might be able to dial it in close enough to reduce the need for it.

The rest will be subjective and will look forward to hearing everyone's reviews over the next year.

Glimmie, your DIY approach applied as such to the >$20K forum kicks a$$ :D

my progression of processors went from a meridian 565 to a krell home theater standard (hts 5.1), to my current theta casablanca2 with superior dac's all around.

the meridan was solid, but i disliked the interface, krell lied about component video switching, and the sad, sad tradein/upgrade offer for the replacement has made me swear off their product line forever, like the bland on lexicon.

thus i have been a happy theta cb2 owner for about 4 years, and i am extremely satisfied with the units sonics, flexibility, and upgrade path.

i am sitting on the sidelines now, because i feel that the dust needs to settle with so many elements that a change at this time is not value justifiedd

thats my 2 cents worth.

I've gone through a number of units over the years. I had a TAG, well actually, I still have a TAG, but I'm not using it. Very nice unit. Still works, but there were some minor quirks. I stopped using it when I needed a unit that could decode two digital streams to two different zones. TAG had DC'd the unit by then.
I had a LEX MC-1. It was OK.
I had a B&K unit.
I now have a LEX MC12b. Over all a good unit. It decodes two digital streams, which is why I bought it. I bought it prior to Halcro availability.

I'm not married to audio equipment.

I currently use a Linn Kinos, which I chose primarily on the basis of sound quality and a variety of digital and analog inputs, including 5.1 analog. It is excellent in this regard (and I have never suffered s/w bugs that affect the next step to the top of the line, the Kisto.) Also, I wanted OSD of all preamp activities because my eyes are not getting any younger ;)

Since then I've become more of a videophile as well. Now I see that the Kinos has a few quirks that I would want to correct in an upgrade, for example:

No lipsync except by forcing to stereo because of insufficient processing power
No video format conversion (I might correct this with a Lumagen or DVDO)
No HDMI inputs or outputs at all (let alone 1.3) but I'd rather avoid a separate switcher
No prospect of new cine audio formats being handled.

I'd welcome any suggestions on an upgrade, so long as the audio is excellent :) (The system includes SD and HD video sources, streaming audio, SACD, DVD-a, Kinos, a heap of active Linn amps and speakers and Sony Pearl HD projector.)

Well going forward I think the best surround processor is no surround processor!

I'm planning to take 7.1 analog from BluRay and send it thorugh a tube 8 channel preamp. My crossover is tube as well as all the LCR amplification in a BiAmp mode. I'll build a relay switch to switch back the the Lexicon DC1 for 5.1 but 7.1 analog from the DVD player direct is the cleanest path.

great aproach Glimmie....

however, I strayed away from this approach because that is relying on the bluray player's audio path (decoding, DACs, etc) to be top notch, and frankly there isn't one out there yet. :o

when a "Denon 5910" equivalent of a blu-ray player comes out, that is certainly a great path to take! :)

Glimmie - that sounds just like what I'd like - where do you find an 8 channel preamp? - who even makes one? I know I could use one of my mixers, but I doubt if I would like the sonics, and I'm pretty sure my Maggies wouldn't. ;)

After various receivers and an AVM-20, I currently use the Halcro SSP 80 and the AVP2 + 6.

I'll probably sell one of these and it will probably be the Proceed piece as it makes little sense to keep both unless I want to spend another 1K for cables and a Zekor Mas 7.1. A dedicated 2 channel room is out of the question at the moment for the AVP2, so if that situation presents itself in the future, I'll make another plan.

Purchase of the Halcro was based on Jeff's recommendation. I listened to the D-2 at a local dealer and did not audition the Theta or Lex due to cost constraints.

The AVP2 + 6 was purchased on a recommendation in a thread here on AVS. A lucky purchase on my part.

Love both of these animals. The AVP2 is an excellent musical processor and very good at home theater. The Halcro is very good at music and excellent at HT. IF I only had the AVP2 and never heard the Halcro, I'd be a happy camper as my system is not complex. However, the Halcro brings a different experience to HT and TV watching and at this time in my life, that is where most of my time is spent.

Meridian 861 is what i went for. Reason? I wanted the Levison No.40 but could not find anyone in the UK who I felt could get the most out of it in the set-up process. This was, for obvious reasons, not a problem with the Meridian. I also considered the MC12B but the room correction on the Meridian clinched the deal.

Meridian 861 is what i went for... I also considered the MC12B but the room correction on the Meridian clinched the deal.

Not to question your choice or your satisfaction with the 861 (a fine unit and a superior product in every way to the Levinson No. 40), but as a matter of technical accuracy the MC-12B also has room correction. In fact, both Lexicon and Meridian have taken a similar approach that differs from others in that it focuses on controlling delay overhang at resonant frequencies rather than simply equalizing peak volumes. This added level of sophistication is the result of the fact that both companies maintain in-house expertise in psychoacoustics.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

Despite the shameless attempt of the original poster to posture himself as interested in a calm even-handed discussion above the fray when his ongoing behavior shows him to be anything but (for the latest demonstration of his true colors see the thread The Bland's Halcro? A Report??? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=732717) ), I will take the question at face value and answer it as completely and honestly as I can.

However, I want to state up front that my reasons for picking my Lexicon processor were based on my listening priorities--others with different priorities may very well pick other products and that is absolutely their choice to make. I am not trying to say that my choice was the right choice for anyone else. The key, always, is to understand your priorities and match them to the capabilities of potential products so that you can make the most informed decision for you.

In my case, my priorities have always been music first and foremost. Since the 1970s, I had been a 2-channel purist--actually, a vinyl purist, with all the associated biases against digital. In fact, I didn’t even own a CD player until 1995. At that time, with new music on vinyl becoming increasingly harder to come by, I finally got on board the digital/home theater bandwagon, but music remained my top priority. First I broke down and bought a Denon receiver, but found it was a step down for music from my dedicated 2-channel system.

It wasn’t until I heard the Lexicon DC-1 that I had a change of heart regarding digital--and DSP surround processing in particular. Until then, all the surround processing I’d heard had been junky ambient synthesis modes that added horribly unnatural reverb to the recording. But when I heard 2-channel music enhanced by Logic 7 on the DC-1, it got my attention--it was the first DSP I’d heard that sounded like real music played in a real space. Even more unsettling to me at the time was the fact that when I switched from Logic 7 back to my beloved 2-channel, the sound collapsed to the front of the room and I became very conscious of how artificial the 2-channel paradigm really is. There was a lot of cognitive dissonance about this for me--I’d grown up with 2-channel, and because it was familiar I had accepted it as the “natural paradigm” for home audio playback, but I had to admit that Logic 7-enhanced CDs sounded more like the sound of live performance, which I was also familiar with. It wasn’t until I admitted to myself that all music reproduction is an artificial construct that I could accept the idea that there was no “right” paradigm even for playback--that freed me to pursue whatever gave me the most convincing and involving illusion.

I did some more research into what made the Lexicon so different from other DSP processing I’d heard. I found that Lexicon had adapted its proprietary surround modes from their Pro audio research (their studio effects processors are used in the vast majority of recordings that we hear). I also learned that unlike other surround modes that synthesize ambience according to crude pre-set algorithms, Logic 7 actually extracts ambience from cues in the recording itself (many of these cues having been put there with Lexicon’s own studio processors).

Just as importantly, I learned that although Logic 7 gets most of its accolades for use with movies and TV (especially matrix-encoded content), its designer, David Griesinger, was first and foremost a music lover--while earning his degree in physics he worked his way through grad school as a recording engineer for classical concerts). Although I could easily appreciate the improvements of Logic 7’s true stereo surrounds vs. Pro Logic’s single mono surround channel for movies, it was the design priority on music that meant even more to me.

Of course, I had all the typical audiophile concerns about “sound quality,” and I’m still picky in that regard. I found the DC-1 sounded comparable to other pre-pros in its class--clean, detailed, and uncolored, but if that were my only concern there were other products that would have fit the bill equally well. For me, surround processing was the discriminant.

So in comparing various products for my first high-end pre/pro, I narrowed my choice to two companies: Lexicon and Meridian, because these are the manufacturers that had invested the research and expertise to push the envelope of surround technology, whereas all the others were followers implementing off-the-shelf solutions. And that’s still true today. Back then I went with the Lexicon DC-1 because it had the right combination of features, price, and track record of upgradability (the policy of offering generous trade-in allowances towards new processors made quite a favorable impression on me). With respect to surround processing, I had a preference for Logic 7’s more immersive soundfield vs. Merdian’s more subtle Trifield enhancement, but Bob Stuart is no slouch and I can understand someone being very happy with Meridian gear.

BTW, I was very glad when Dolby brought PL II / PL IIx to a wider audience--these are excellent modes that have created a much greater awareness of the benefits of surround processing in the consumer market. But they are different in philosophy and implementation from Logic 7, and my Lexicon processor allows me to use both--I like having options. And of course at the time I was shopping for my first high-end pre-pro there was no PL II option.

Back then, my one point of hesitation was the Lexicon DC-1’s mandatory A/D conversion (because I had a high-end Win Labs turntable and a huge record collection), but the Meridian had the same limitation. The only product with analog bypass at the time was the Proceed AVP, but it had no distinguishing surround processing capability. To me, the trade-off for better surround processing was worth it. Even so, I went to pretty obsessive lengths to retain my two-channel “purist” ideal. First, I ran the DC-1’s front L & R outputs through a conrad-johnson preamp which I also used directly for 2-channel sources, but the c-j’s at the time lacked a “unity gain” bypass input and having to keep track of two volume settings drove me nuts.

So next I contracted Ralph Catino of Reference Line Audio to customize one of his fabulous passive preamps with a unity gain "Home Theater" input. We worked out a design that configured a single input to bypass his stepped attenuator, but shared the rest of the high-quality signal path. We also designed the unit with an auxiliary output that could be used to route the high quality two-channel source to the DC-1 for extracting Halfler-type surround enhancement if I felt like it, while the main output always fed the pure, unprocessed 2-channel source to the amps to the L-R front speakers. Fairly anal, now that I look back on it--and thankfully no longer a concern since the current crop of Lexicons now have analog bypass capability. Though it was a perfect audiophile purist solution at the time, the custom Reference Line passive preamp now sits in a box, one of these days I’ll put it up for sale on Audiogon or someplace simply because I no longer have any interest in two-channel playback (again, those are my priorities).

In any case, that is the process that led me to select my first Lexicon pre-pro back in 1997. What’s kept me a Lexicon customer ever since has been: (1) the company’s history of cost-effective trade-ins, which have allowed me to retain far more of the value in each processor than I could have gotten on the resale market; (2) continuous upgrades and enhancements to existing technology such as Logic 7; (3) continuing introduction of innovative new technologies like Bass Enhance and their proprietary Room EQ; and (4) first-rate customer support.

If anyone’s still awake, I have offered this as simply one audiophile’s personal “audyssey” into the world of surround processing. I do not expect others to share my priorities, or reach the same conclusions, or pick the processor I picked. I do hope, however, that some readers might consider that there are a number of factors that can enter into picking a pre-pro, and not let their options be limited by a knee-jerk allegiance to two-channel “purist” paradigms, or nebulous allusions to “sound quality” that are inseparable from the effects of other system components, room acoustics, and the expectations and biases of the advocate. So be careful what you ask for, Mr. Bruzonsky--you might get a more verbose answer than you bargained for.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

I got Jeff/thebland's leftover 565 - not a bad unit at all :) I have it in my family room HT - still working and sounding fine.

For my dedicated listening/viewing room I use HTPC (RME Digi96/8 PAD + AEB8-0, along with a EMM Labs Switchman MkII - glorified volume control and source switcher). Planning possible transition to tubed gear later this year...

I've tried solid state integrated, pro amp solid state, class-A, class-D, now tubes - jwatte - it truly is all good, with the right setup & room.

What has remained constant? My Vandersteen surround setup & Electrohome Marquee CRT PJ.

- Steve O.

Despite the shameless attempt of the original poster to posture himself as interested in a calm even-handed discussion above the fray when his ongoing behavior shows him to be anything but (for the latest demonstration of his true colors see the thread The Bland's Halcro? A Report??? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=732717) ), I will take the question at face value and answer it as completely and honestly as I can.

So be careful what you ask for, Mr. Bruzonsky--you might get a more verbose answer than you bargained for.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

What got his cat gander going again!!!??? :confused:

Please back to what was a nice, informative thread up to this point.

No kidding... anyone else not living near Phoenix just needs to learn how to chill out... ;)

Despite the shameless attempt of the original poster to posture himself as interested in a calm even-handed discussion above the fray when his ongoing behavior shows him to be anything but

Pot, Kettle, black.

Prior to the Lexicon I was also a two channel listener. At the time I was sharing time between a Quicksilver tube pre-amp and a Mod Squad Line Drive Deluxe passive pre-amp with a Curcio tube DAC and an external crossover for my sub.

My system was double duty as I used various surround processors for movie watching. A few different Fosgate Audionics (Model 5 and 3a) and also later on a Sony EP9ES for DD decoding. The Fosgate 3A had a few music surround modes that on occasion could sound very good with music but often sounded very gimmicky too. WIth lots of tweaking it could improve but the tweaks required could vary song to song on music. It wasn't worth the hassle. Still when it worked well it convinced me of the potential for what surround extraction might be able to do for music but it needed to be much more consistent.

Likewise I had tried other approachs in 'the pursuit' such as various forms of interaural cross cancellation such as Carver's Sonic Holography as well as physical methods such as 'the wall' (in limited scope) that Ralph Glasgal was promoting which made 2 channels sound stage explode but was very impractical. The Carver effect could sound good but its big limitation was a proper speaker configuration required very different speaker placement then would be typical for two channel listening. With Sonic Holography the L/R speakers should be very close to each other. If one wanted the ability to go back and forth between Sonic Holography and pure stereo to do it right the speaker positions would have to move. That made it impractical to use.

I was on CEAUDIO and around that time Buzz Goddard (former VP of Lexicon consumer) was on the forum and announced the DC-1. He was an active member and pointed out all sorts of interesting details about the Lexicon's that one typically doesn't read about in reviews. What initially got me interested in the DC-1 was an effect they called Panorama. This was another type of interaural cross cancellation, like Sonic Holography, but where it differed was that you calibrate Panorama for your existing L/R speaker spread... not setting up your speakers for it. This would let me listen in this mode and be able to go back to two channel quickly/easily without having to reposition my speakers. Panorama also offered the ability of taking advantage of a center channel and surrounds in this mode for more fill.

The more I looked into the DC-1 the more I liked it. It was built to be upgraded (and already had been with the addition of DD decoding and then later DTS decoding) and Lexicon already had a policy of trade-ins in place... even in '95. CP3/CP3+ owners received 100% of MSRP as trade in toward the DC-1 when it was available. It also had all sorts of features that showed Lexicon was really thinking things through when they built it such as it knowing the SPL at the listening position to be able to apply the proper amount of 'Loudness' compensation at any listening position, or using the same sort of logic to optionally apply dynamic compression to DD soundtracks automatically when listening at low SPL levels. The interface of the Lexicon looked very easy to use (in a time when most were dreadful) which showed that Lexicon put time into all aspects of the product. It also obviously had a lot of ways to tweak the unit to ones taste along with independent crossovers for L/R, center, sides and rears... something some equipment still doesn't have today.

At a time when almost all equipment was just moving to 6 channel from the Pro-Logic mono surround days the Lexicon was already 8 channel and had processing to actually use all 8 channel (stereo sides and stereo rears) from 2 channel sources as well as 5.1 sources.... which turned out to be available 4 years before THX Surround EX came out with its mono rear channel extraction and 8 years before Dolby announced PLIIx. A leader, not a follower. Even back in the DC-1s early days Lexicon's rear surround processing was so good THX allowed Lexicon to use Lexicon's rear stereo steering in place of THX 'decorrelated' mono channel in the fully approved THX mode on the DC-1.

Anyhow all that was what got me interested in the DC-1. It took me several years before I decided to go ahead and buy it in '98 though. When I bought it I knew it was going to be great on movies but at the time was still thinking I'd be listening to music in two channel or maybe sometimes in Panorama. After spending about a week with it in my home though all that changed. As expected its movie processing was superb... have a 2 channel Dolby Surround encoded soundtrack have pans through all 7 speakers was superb. Panorama worked as expected but what really got my attention was Music Logic. This was a mode that with some initial tweaking to my tastes made my music playback take on a whole new dimension. I was getting more enjoyment and involvement out of my music then I had ever had before. A well integrated center speaker with music made a large difference in reducing the inherent comb filtering in two channel and also of course stabilized the soundstage for when I was listening off axis. Years later I learned that the guys who invented 'stereo' back in like the 1930s wanted a three channel system (L,C,R) but were limited by the technology of the day to only a two channel delivery system. Within a couple of weeks I was hooked on it for good and ended up selling off the two channel equipment and ran with it which also connivently also greatly simplified my system.

I ended up upgrading to v3 in the DC-1 when it was available which had many improvements to the DC-1 which also introduced Lexicon's 'Bass Enhance' processing which is an attempt to make bass in a room sound more like it does in a hall. This was all based on David Griesingers research into the perception of sound and how that changes from a hall to a home. This was showing the need for stereo bass response down to around 40hz at a time when most were simply repeating the incomplete mantra of 'under 80hz is not localizable.' Again... leading not following.

When the MC-1 came out I upgraded to it. The MC-1 was later upgraded for THX Surround EX which was the first processor on the market to offer it... most companies had to scrap their 6 channel products and release new 7 or 8 channel products.

When the MC-12 came out I looked at what it offered and again decided to upgrade to it. This had numerous upgrades over the years including room EQ, totally new versions of Music Logic (now called Logic 7 music), PLIIx, DTSneo6 (yuck). The last upgrade (v5) introduced a new form for Logic 7 for 5.1 sources (DD, DTS and the 6 channel analog input) that actively steered central material from L/R to the center (great for multichannel music which doesn't use the center speaker) as well as steering surround material out of L/R to the surround channels which made DD/DTS mixes sound more full and exciting.. esp. mixes that had little material in the surround channels itself.

When the MC-12HD came out I decided to move to it too.

Over the years while I have had the Lexicon's I have had other equipment in to try out as well to hear the other well regarded processing out there. I was curious to get some real world long term in system experience with Meridian's Trifield and Ambisonic encoded material for example so I bought a Meridian and used it for awhile as well as left it hooked up to the Lexicon's multichannel input so I could compare it to the Lexicon's processing. I like Trifield but still preferred Logic 7 Music for a couple of reasons.

So that, in a long nutshell, is that. A history of exceptional music reproduction, fantastic movie watching, continued upgrades which in many cases lead the pack, and improvements including trade ins to new models not constrained by past product design decisions, easy to use well thought out products that are also very reliable both from a hardware and software point of view. I spend all day working with technology... when I use my system I don't want to be reminded of the fragile nature of some software.

Shawn

What got his cat gander going again!!!??? :confused:

Please back to what was a nice, informative thread up to this point.

Spare us the wounded confusion act, Steve, you know exactly what I'm talking about. You don't get to launch an insulting gratuitous attack (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10936228&&#post10936228) in one thread and then when you're called on it start a new one pretending like you're interested in civil discourse. You shoved that insult into the other thread, apropos of nothing, as part of your compulsive need to bash Lexicon products and the people who own them, and no, you can't just change the channel and make it go away--it will take a lot of civil behavior on your part to dispel the bad taste of your continuing ugliness. As I requested in the previous thread, why don't you onsider following your own suggestion for a change? Although all but the first sentence of my 1440-word post above did indeed focus on supporting an informative, neutral discussion of the reasons for personal choice in a/v gear, naturally you chose to focus on 64 words and ignore the rest that follows your supposeed ground rules. Typical.

Philip Brandes

It takes two to get into a stupid argument

It takes two to get into a stupid argument

and just one Moderator to ask you guys to stop the bickering: now

This is a great thread, and many of us would like to participate, but for this

Could we please take the high road in all our posts going forward?

Thanks

Agreed... Philip, look at it this way, maybe now that Steve knows he's gonna get dogpiled he'll behave---and so can we! :) Mark, I think this thread is great, too, and I think you ought to feel free to clean it up.

I have commiteed no doggie pooh behavior in this thread nor do I intend do. That was clear from how well this thread was proceeding - before someone else doogie poohed on me! (Michael, thanks for being a gentleman and constructive in this thread.)

And laying surround processor warring on me is quite unfair. Their have been plenty of surround processor threads at the Audio forum and even some here where I was not or hardly involved, and the folks go at it anyway.

Wonder where Bulldogger's been in all of this? He usually gets in his jibes. I think he's enjoying me taking the heat! Did you know all this smoke here in this forum from surround processors burnin' up has heated the Phoenix area to its highest temperatures ever. So please, lets cool it down. Before I get blamed next for "global warming".

Agreed... Philip, look at it this way, maybe now that Steve knows he's gonna get dogpiled he'll behave---and so can we! :)

Fair enough. Back to discussion...

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

Meridian 861v4 vs. roughly comparable units solely because of Trifield for redbook CD source material.

MRC and built in 8 channel (60 filter) PEQ nice, and long term upgradeability (albeit behind the pace of the best in the market) also nice.

All video switching/processing is done outside the 861, so video processing wasn't an issue

I've made an unfortunate discovery upon hooking up my Meridian 861 and two Revel subwoofers for the first time through the processor itself instead of using the subs chained together with the speakers.... The bass management doesn't appear to work at all. In fact, at the least, the crossovers settings don't appear to do anything at all no matter what source I use in my system (including digital and analog outputs to the processor). No matter what I set them to, they still send the whole signal through to both the regular speakers and the subwoofers at the same time.

I called Meridian and the guy there at Meridian USA doesn't seem to know how to troubleshoot the problem even though I was quite explicit on what is wrong and how I tested it. I am going to call the UK branch on Monday and hope they have better technical knowledge of their own equipment and why it might not be working correctly.

My speakers are all set to small and I am running the subs in stereo mode. I have no center channel. The person at Meridian tech support stated that he has never dealt with any people who have no center channel before and perhaps that was causing all the problems. I hope the people in Britain have a more comprehensive troubleshooting department with a more complete approach than the, "I don't know, your local dealer might know more, perhaps it is an unusual setting in your system" approach to helping the customer.

This is an awfully expensive piece of equipment to be lacking a very strong and well trained technical staff to troubleshoot it when it is not working correctly IMO....

I've made an unfortunate discovery upon hooking up my Meridian 861 and two Revel subwoofers for the first time through the processor itself instead of using the subs chained together with the speakers.... The bass management doesn't appear to work at all. In fact, at the least, the crossovers settings don't appear to do anything at all no matter what source I use in my system (including digital and analog outputs to the processor). No matter what I set them to, they still send the whole signal through to both the regular speakers and the subwoofers at the same time.

I called Meridian and the guy there at Meridian USA doesn't seem to know how to troubleshoot the problem even though I was quite explicit on what is wrong and how I tested it. I am going to call the UK branch on Monday and hope they have better technical knowledge of their own equipment and why it might not be working correctly.

My speakers are all set to small and I am running the subs in stereo mode. I have no center channel. The person at Meridian tech support stated that he has never dealt with any people who have no center channel before and perhaps that was causing all the problems. I hope the people in Britain have a more comprehensive troubleshooting department with a more complete approach than the, "I don't know, your local dealer might know more, perhaps it is an unusual setting in your system" approach to helping the customer.

This is an awfully expensive piece of equipment to be lacking a very strong and well trained technical staff to troubleshoot it when it is not working correctly IMO....

That's weird. I would have expected Meridian's tech support to be top notch. Maybe their in the middle of a tech person leaving and trying to get a suitable replacement, which isn't easy in the high end audio business?

I've made an unfortunate discovery upon hooking up my Meridian 861 and two Revel subwoofers for the first time through the processor itself instead of using the subs chained together with the speakers.... The bass management doesn't appear to work at all. In fact, at the least, the crossovers settings don't appear to do anything at all no matter what source I use in my system (including digital and analog outputs to the processor). No matter what I set them to, they still send the whole signal through to both the regular speakers and the subwoofers at the same time.

I called Meridian and the guy there at Meridian USA doesn't seem to know how to troubleshoot the problem even though I was quite explicit on what is wrong and how I tested it. I am going to call the UK branch on Monday and hope they have better technical knowledge of their own equipment and why it might not be working correctly.

My speakers are all set to small and I am running the subs in stereo mode. I have no center channel. The person at Meridian tech support stated that he has never dealt with any people who have no center channel before and perhaps that was causing all the problems. I hope the people in Britain have a more comprehensive troubleshooting department with a more complete approach than the, "I don't know, your local dealer might know more, perhaps it is an unusual setting in your system" approach to helping the customer.

This is an awfully expensive piece of equipment to be lacking a very strong and well trained technical staff to troubleshoot it when it is not working correctly IMO....

I too am a Meridain owner -- in fact I own a Meridian 861V4, 800V4 and 558.2 -- and speak from experience....there is unfortunately a significant difference in knowledge level between the folks in the US and the folks in the UK...for best results contact the UK -- either by e-mail or telephone -- and, if you really want the best, ask for Des Ford....guarantee that your issue will be resolved as every single one of mine have been in a prompt, interested and curteous manner...

HTH

I too am a Meridain owner -- in fact I own a Meridian 861V4, 800V4 and 558.2 -- and speak from experience....there is unfortunately a significant difference in knowledge level between the folks in the US and the folks in the UK...for best results contact the UK -- either by e-mail or telephone -- and, if you really want the best, ask for Des Ford....guarantee that your issue will be resolved as every single one of mine have been in a prompt, interested and curteous manner...

HTH

Thanks Joelc, the dealer that sold me the 861 also confirmed the same thing. I didn't realize that the US support wasn't on par with the UK support. Now that I think about it, it does make sense, since it is a UK company. I'll call first thing on Monday, while they are open over there across the pond.

For me, digitally handling all the lossless codecs, LPCM and movie sound dimensionality, dialog intelligibility and dynamics.

Thanks Joelc, the dealer that sold me the 861 also confirmed the same thing. I didn't realize that the US support wasn't on par with the UK support. Now that I think about it, it does make sense, since it is a UK company. I'll call first thing on Monday, while they are open over there across the pond.

QueueCumber, my pleasure...

Lexicon MC-8.

I've always been a big fan of Lexicon's - their auto-azimuth solved problems in analog surround processing no one else was even addressing.

My only problems with Lexicon is their upgrade pricing is outrageous, not to mention their original purchase prices.

A high end audiophile complaining the price of a product is too high - a first. ;)

My only problems with Lexicon is their upgrade pricing is outrageous...



Yes, it is...this is the only reason reason that after 10+ years of lexicon ownership that I jumped ship when they introduced the MC-12 as I felt that their upgrade policy regarding the discount/value they were willing privide for my MC-1 was a joke...not to mention that they completely killed the second hand market for those who owned either a DC-1 or DC-2...

Bottom line -- at least for me -- great product in terms of sonics, flexibility, ergonomiucs, etc. but a horrible upgrade path...