I bought Ghost Rider the other day and noticed that they put a PCM 5.1 (uncompressed) along with a DD TrueHD soundtrack. A lot of people on here have said that they would not do that. That PCM 5.1 would be fazed out when they started including DD TrueHD on Blu-Ray. I hope that they continue to use PCM 5.1 indefinitely. It is a bonus for people with players with no True HD decoders and HDMI for audio. JMO.


<><

PCM will be gone by this time next year. Paidgeek confirmed that. This is just to ease the transition. Plus, the True HD track on Ghost Rider is superior to the PCM track. 20bits vs 16bits.

I blame Samsung for not including True HD decoders, or at least updating it with firmware.

PCM will be gone by this time next year. Paidgeek confirmed that. This is just to ease the transition. Plus, the True HD track on Ghost Rider is superior to the PCM track. 20bits vs 16bits.

I blame Samsung for not including True HD decoders, or at least updating it with firmware.

I blam Samsung, Pioneer, Sony et. al. for not making it MANDATORY. That is the only thing I dislike about BD - it is a patchwork of specs. Ugh!

I have the panasonic blu-ray player. Am i right in thinking this dosen't do dolby true hd? I know there was a firmware upgrade recently but that was taken off the website so I was unable to download the upgrade. :(

Prinze,
The 10a decodes everything except DTS-MA (master).
Regards,
Dom

Soon you wont be able to buy a player that doesnt do it all. The new Sigma Designs chipset does DTS HD MA, TrueHD, BD-J 1.1 (picture in picture) and also supports BD-Live with full internet connectivity. Most companys will be using that chipset. Dont forget 7.1 Analog out as well.

I blam Samsung, Pioneer, Sony et. al. for not making it MANDATORY. That is the only thing I dislike about BD - it is a patchwork of specs. Ugh!

Agreed

PCM will be gone by this time next year. Paidgeek confirmed that. This is just to ease the transition. Plus, the True HD track on Ghost Rider is superior to the PCM track. 20bits vs 16bits.

I blame Samsung for not including True HD decoders, or at least updating it with firmware.


But since they have already put both on Ghost Rider, there is really nothing stopping them from doing it again on all of them. No reason NOT to do it really.
I wonder what will be the first player to use the new chip will ALL of the decoders? The day it comes out is the day my Samsung moves to the playroom theater.


<><

But since they have already put both on Ghost Rider, there is really nothing stopping them from doing it again on all of them. No reason NOT to do it really.
I wonder what will be the first player to use the new chip will ALL of the decoders? The day it comes out is the day my Samsung moves to the playroom theater.


<><

Having two lossless tracks eats up space that could have been devoted for a higher bitrate video or more special features.

Having two lossless tracks eats up space that could have been devoted for a higher bitrate video or more special features.

Again, it didn't hurt Ghost Rider.

<><

I have the panasonic blu-ray player. Am i right in thinking this dosen't do dolby true hd? I know there was a firmware upgrade recently but that was taken off the website so I was unable to download the upgrade. :(
You will need the 2.0 or greater FW to decode TrueHD.
Keep checking back to the Panasonic website, if you have a need to.

Ghost Rider soundtrack is amazing. I prefered the PCM track over True-HD. Very very aggressive sountrack. I love this movie. Bow to Sony for this disc.

We are watching it tonite and I am only looking forward to the sound! :eek:

We are watching it tonite and I am only looking forward to the sound! :eek:
yup, the movie isn't too much to brag about. but the sound is excellent.

The movie has great PQ, yet the humor is so sarcastic it started to annoy me. Cage's charachter seemed like he wasn't all there either and that bother me. I know that its a comic book movie, but I feel like that everyone had the same attitude and felt really fake. I really need to get a cheap surround system though; the TV speakers don't cut it.

I have a question about the audio you guys may be able to answer for me. I use my PS3 as my bluray player and because I do not have an HDMI equipped receiver, I use the optical output of the PS3 for sound. Granted, both DolbyTrueHD and PCM are uncompressed and technically, from what I understand, can not go through the optical cable because of its limited bandwidth. Normally, when I try PCM on a bluray disk, I just get 2 channel sound. I don't know if DolbyTrue is the same way, but if I were to watch this movie on my setup, would I not be able to get any type of surround sound? I see there is a French DD5.1, but no English? Unless the dolbytrue can supply 6 channels over optical it looks like I am kind of screwed for watching this movie with english surround sound, or is there an english 5.1 track?

I have a question about the audio you guys may be able to answer for me. I use my PS3 as my bluray player and because I do not have an HDMI equipped receiver, I use the optical output of the PS3 for sound. Granted, both DolbyTrueHD and PCM are uncompressed and technically, from what I understand, can not go through the optical cable because of its limited bandwidth. Normally, when I try PCM on a bluray disk, I just get 2 channel sound. I don't know if DolbyTrue is the same way, but if I were to watch this movie on my setup, would I not be able to get any type of surround sound? I see there is a French DD5.1, but no English? Unless the dolbytrue can supply 6 channels over optical it looks like I am kind of screwed for watching this movie with english surround sound, or is there an english 5.1 track?

u'd get a normal dd5.1 prob 640 or 448 bitrate.

u'd get a normal dd5.1 prob 640 or 448 bitrate.


Good to know. Thank you.

PCM will be gone by this time next year. Paidgeek confirmed that.

I for one feel that this is a premeditated way for hardware venders to force people to buy a new receiver or a new player.

/PCM works and sounds great.

Swift MH

Yeah PCM sound more natural, open and clearer than stupid Dolby True HD. I hope they do not abandon PCM. Blueray has 50Gig. There is no point of compress the soundtrack into Dolby True HD.

Pardon me for my ignorance, but what is the difference between Lossless PCM and Lossless DD TrueHD? If they are both Lossless codecs, wont they sound identical? Can we even hear the difference?

Yeah PCM sound more natural, open and clearer than stupid Dolby True HD. I hope they do not abandon PCM. Blueray has 50Gig. There is no point of compress the soundtrack into Dolby True HD.Based on what, Ghost Rider?

So you are saying that a TrueHD 20/48 soundtrack sounds worse then PCM 16/48 soundtrack?

It is proven that Dolby TrueHD is 100% lossless once it's decoded back into PCM, so it's "stupid" not to use some kind of lossless audio compression, ether TrueHD or DTS-MA. It saves space for a higher bitrate on the video encode, extras, etc.

TrueHD or DTS-MA......
Really better for the consumer or the manufacture?
I don't believe the marketing hype. Not to say it is not a little better, but is it really that much better? Sony, Panasonic, Yamaha, you name it all have profits to guarantee to there stockholders. They really on the next idea to keep the money flowing.
I hope they continue to keep the PCM track intact and not get rid of it 100% in favor of TrueHD or DTS-MA as suggested by PaidGeek.

TrueHD or DTS-MA......
Really better for the consumer or the manufacture?
I don't believe the marketing hype. Not to say it is not a little better, but is it really that much better?What marketing hype? That TrueHD and DTS-MA don't consume as much space as PCM and sound identical to the master? It's better for the fact it doesn't waste as much space as the raw PCM track does.

I would not call the PCM track a waste of space given the 50 gb's of space that is available. I agree that it is better to have room left over on the disk to use for extra content, but the truth is a great deal of the releases have had slim pickens when it comes to extra content. I do not believe we are really hurting for space. If a studio is willing to release a movie with a high bit rate encode with special features and really needs to keep the cost down by using just one disk then that is ok with me. As it looks right now, I see no reason why the studios cannot continue to do what they did with Ghost Rider and give us a choice.

Saving disk space is always a good thing...providing the saved space is actually utilized for something....like, say, a higher video bit-rate encode or extras, etc.
Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case with most BD releases.

Can anyone confirm that Ghost Rider's PCM soundtrack is 16/48 and the TrueHD is 20/48? I haven't seen the disc's packaging or any press materials...I'm just curious if this was speculation or true...and if true from what source?

I know the upcoming Fifth Element disc with PCM and TrueHD will both be 16/48.

Can anyone confirm that Ghost Rider's PCM soundtrack is 16/48 and the TrueHD is 20/48? I haven't seen the disc's packaging or any press materials...I'm just curious if this was speculation or true...and if true from what source?

I know the upcoming Fifth Element disc with PCM and TrueHD will both be 16/48.According to this it is: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=760714


Dolby TrueHD (lossless compression) 20-bit/48kHz
Sony

Code:
Scanned
Title Codec Length Movie Size Disc Size Total Bitrate Video Bitrate Main Audio Track Secondary Audio Track
----- ------ ------- -------------- -------------- ------------- ------------- ---------------- ---------------------
Ghost Rider: Extended Cut AVC 2:03:24 36,219,389,952 ~49,862,064,796 39.1349432220 26.73 Dolby TrueHD 5.1 LPCM 5.1 4608Kbps 16-bit

PCM will be gone by this time next year. Paidgeek confirmed that.

I for one feel that this is a premeditated way for hardware venders to force people to buy a new receiver or a new player. Not "premeditated". Blu-Ray wasn't complete but they couldn't allow HD-DVD an unopposed market headstart, so they released it unfinished with expectations of a phased completion with Profile 1.1 and BD-Live. PCM was always just a "stop-gap" to make sure HD-DVD wasn't considered to have superior audio.

I am sorry if I sound angry. The truth is I just bought a new receiver so I could get PCM audio and now I hear it will be gone next year. :confused:

It is like they are always staying one step ahead of me, always coaxing me to the bleeding edge of technology. They pump me up ready to buy just to have a huge CES announcement telling me I have not heard anything yet ;) . Makes me feel like it will never end. Please just stick with something that works for a year or two and don't faze it out to pull me into the next big thing. How long have we waited for this type of technology to mature ? 5 years ? 10 years ? I guess this is the price we pay for keeping up with times. Just like they did with the LP, EP,Reel to Reel, 8 track, quadraphonic sound, Dolby 2.1, 5.1, 6.1,7.1, Cassette deck , CD player, Mini Disk, UMD, on and on and on until I die. :(

/ Guess I better stick to to roman soup because we can't be wasting space for two formats of audio in the future as PaidGeek has suggested.

I am sorry if I sound angry. The truth is I just bought a new receiver so I could get PCM audio and now I hear it will be gone next year. :confused:Nothing to be angry about, now that you have a receiver that can handle PCM audio, (I'm assuming it's an HDMI receiver correct?) your good to go with TrueHD. That's the beauty of having the audio decoded in the player instead of the receiver. If the player can decode TrueHD (PS3, the new Panny and Pioneer), it will decode back to PCM in the player and pass the PCM over HDMI to your receiver no problem.

I have a 2 year old Denon 4806 with HDMI 1.1 and I'm hearing TrueHD and PCM audio just fine.

Actually who's worried right now are the receiver makers, since the HD players are decoding the lossless advanced audio and passing the decoded PCM to the receiver there isn't to much of a reason to upgrade to a new receiver if you already have HDMI 1.1 or 1.2. IMO, this is one of the reasons they are pushing HDMI 1.3, they are making everyone think that you "need" to have 1.3, when in fact 1.1 or 1.2 is perfect.

I am sorry if I sound angry. The truth is I just bought a new receiver so I could get PCM audio and now I hear it will be gone next year. :confused:

It is like they are always staying one step ahead of me, always coaxing me to the bleeding edge of technology. They pump me up ready to buy just to have a huge CES announcement telling me I have not heard anything yet ;) . Makes me feel like it will never end. Please just stick with something that works for a year or two and don't faze it out to pull me into the next big thing. How long have we waited for this type of technology to mature ? 5 years ? 10 years ? I guess this is the price we pay for keeping up with times. Just like they did with the LP, EP,Reel to Reel, 8 track, quadraphonic sound, Dolby 2.1, 5.1, 6.1,7.1, Cassette deck , CD player, Mini Disk, UMD, on and on and on until I die. :(

/ Guess I better stick to to roman soup because we can't be wasting space for two formats of audio in the future as PaidGeek has suggested.No problem Swift Mojo, I understand your frustration. The good news is your receiver isn't the problem. Lossless tracks will be decoded by the player to PCM anyway, so buying a receiver that supports PCM will benefit you for years to come. It is your player that you may have to upgrade if it doesn't have an audio decoder that supports TrueHD or DTS-HD-MA or has the ability to support those with a firmware upgrade in the future.

Hunter is correct...you are good to go, Swifty. :)

I have a Playstation 3. I checked the box today and noticed the TrueHD logo on the side. So I should be good. Thanks for clearing that up for me guys.

No Roman Noodles for me tonight, I am going out to eat. :)

Ghost Rider with PCM 5.1 AND DD TrueHD and missing extras!!! On a 50 gb disc no less with an AVC encode? AVC is not that inefficient. Or is this just Sony's strategy to make people double dip on most of their Bluray titles that are missing extras from the dvd's? On the plus side I did get subtitles in Klingon!

According to this it is: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=760714

Hunter

Nice thread...I don't know how I never saw that one...

But, question: ...how is the resolution of the Dolby TrueHD soundtrack determined based on this info? With LPCM we know the size of it (eg. 4608kbps) so we can determine resolution, but how can we determine this with TrueHD? The same can be said for DTS-HDMA - how do we know that all of those titles are 24/48? ...is there info elsewhere that I'm not seeing? How do we know that all DTS-encore @ 1509kbps are 24/48? (not that all of that data would be retained for true 24/48 anyways...)

Just curious...

Thanks.

Hunter

Nice thread...I don't know how I never saw that one...

But, question: ...how is the resolution of the Dolby TrueHD soundtrack determined based on this info? With LPCM we know the size of it (eg. 4608kbps) so we can determine resolution, but how can we determine this with TrueHD? The same can be said for DTS-HDMA - how do we know that all of those titles are 24/48? ...is there info elsewhere that I'm not seeing? How do we know that all DTS-encore @ 1509kbps are 24/48? (not that all of that data would be retained for true 24/48 anyways...)

Just curious...

Thanks.I'm not sure where all of this information comes from, I think most of it is from insiders. I'm fairly sure that paidgeek (Sony Pictures insider) verified somewhere on AVS that the Ghost Rider TrueHD track is 20 bit.

I don't think you would able to tell easily what a TrueHD track is based (20 bit etc)going by bitrate since TrueHD uses a VBR (Variable bit rate).

I wish Dolby had a insider that would post on AVS, sure would make things easier.

Not all TrueHD or DTS-HD MA tracks are 24/48.
Many are less.

There is a fellow that posts on the forum (Filmmixer) that actually does mix Hollywood films (no kidding) for a living and has alot of experience at it BTW.
He indicated in a post that the vast majority of films are NOT 24/48 tracks.
Although these tracks are becoming increasingly popular with the new films.

Not all TrueHD or DTS-HD MA tracks are 24/48.
Many are less.

There is a fellow that posts on the forum (Filmmixer) that actually does mix Hollywood films (no kidding) for a living and has alot of experience at it BTW.
He indicated in a post that the vast majority of films are NOT 24/48 tracks.
Although these tracks are becoming increasingly popular with the new films.Actually, it's the other way around, FilmMixer says most film mixes are 24/48. I beleve at one point he said it's been 24/48 for the past 4 or 5 years.

99% of films are now at 24/48.

Ghost Rider with PCM 5.1 AND DD TrueHD and missing extras!!! On a 50 gb disc no less with an AVC encode? AVC is not that inefficient. Or is this just Sony's strategy to make people double dip on most of their Bluray titles that are missing extras from the dvd's? On the plus side I did get subtitles in Klingon!


Which extras are missing? The one I have has 3 documentaries on it plus PCM 5.1 and DD True HD. Also has the commentaries.

We watched this one earlier in the evening and the sound is very strong and immersive... Wow! :eek:

Actually, it's the other way around, FilmMixer says most film mixes are 24/48. I beleve at one point he said it's been 24/48 for the past 4 or 5 years.
Read my post again....I said most are not 24/48, they are 16 and 20 bit.
24 bit has only been used on the newer films.
Most of the studios' catalogs are NOT in 24 bit.

PCM will be gone by this time next year. Paidgeek confirmed that.

I for one feel that this is a premeditated way for hardware venders to force people to buy a new receiver or a new player.

/PCM works and sounds great.

Almost all players decode the lossless soundtracks to pcm (except DTS MA), so need to buy anything new (unless you want DTS MA). IF DTS MA even goes mainstream?? DTS seems to be out in left field as of late.

If most films are 24/48 these days, I'm wondering why Sony has only been giving us 16/48 audio tracks on their BD titles while Disney is doing 24/48. Unless Sony still does everything in 16 bit...in any case...how many of us are truly getting full 24bit rez from their audio gear anyways...? It's good to have the software "ready to go" but some things need to be caught up on the hardware end too...

If most films are 24/48 these days, I'm wondering why Sony has only been giving us 16/48 audio tracks on their BD titles while Disney is doing 24/48. Unless Sony still does everything in 16 bit...in any case...how many of us are truly getting full 24bit rez from their audio gear anyways...? It's good to have the software "ready to go" but some things need to be caught up on the hardware end too...

Maybe Sony is thinking "nobody cares about bitrate". I think if you ask what bitrate CD:s have, some people today still wouldnt know. As long as it sounds good they dont care about bitrate.

There was one in the forum that said that a 6.9mgb indication on the display is 24/48 bit sound. However, i dont know how to "see" that on my PS3. It only says "pcm multichannel" and 48khz. Maybe it is 20/48 or 16/48, but i cant be certain.... :(

Even if it is "just" 16/48, it sounds fuller and the treble seams to be more refined. Hopefully there will be more 24/48 from more studios in the future.

I think Sony gets bit-rate.
They have been putting out some excellent VQ/AQ on their releases for quite awhile now.

It is like they are always staying one step ahead of me, always coaxing me to the bleeding edge of technology.Then it's a good thing you bought your current receiver. Imagine some new audio codec shows up in the future. Most likely the compatible players will decode it to PCM internally before transmitting to your receiver. You'll have to buy a new player anyway, but at least you won't have to swap out receivers (since your's already accepts multi-channel PCM). You're not only good to go for now, as others have mentioned, but also for the forseeable "bleeding edge" future. No worries and no living off ramen (unless you like it).

Sanjay

when comparing the Dolby True HD and PCM tracks on my PS3, it shows an average 3.0 and 4.6 Mbps, respectively. Does the lower bit-rate for TrueHD mean the PS3 isn't taking full advantage of it? Is it just using its "core" as with DTS-MA, or is what I see what i get? It sounds great, but I was expecting more...

when comparing the Dolby True HD and PCM tracks on my PS3, it shows an average 3.0 and 4.6 Mbps, respectively. Does the lower bit-rate for TrueHD mean the PS3 isn't taking full advantage of it? Is it just using its "core" as with DTS-MA, or is what I see what i get? It sounds great, but I was expecting more...TrueHD compresses the original PCM using a VBR (Variable bit rate) so it depends how complex the original PCM signal was during the encode. For example if there isn't much going on, talking etc. then TrueHD can compress the PCM signal better, if there is loud action going on with music and all speakers are going strong then the PCM signal would be compressed less. Hope this helps, I'm not the greatest at explaining these things :)

^Well, it seems to work.
This TrueHD track on GR is excellent. :)

TrueHD compresses the original PCM using a VBR (Variable bit rate) so it depends how complex the original PCM signal was during the encode. For example if there isn't much going on, talking etc. then TrueHD can compress the PCM signal better, if there is loud action going on with music and all speakers are going strong then the PCM signal would be compressed less. Hope this helps, I'm not the greatest at explaining these things :)


makes sense. although I was expecting the rate to get near the potential 18mbps.
I did notice as you mentioned, quiet scenes were around 2.5, and loud, dynamic scenes were over 3.5

makes sense. although I was expecting the rate to get near the potential 18mbps.No you wont see it jump that high because the orginal PCM source on Ghost Rider is only around 6.0 Mbps and it gets compressed from there.

I don't think we will ever see 18 Mbps on Blu-Ray because it only supports 8 channels in TrueHD.

According to a Dolby white paper (but in my wording - for beter or worse :))....

Say a 8 channel PCM master at 24/48 is used, this is around 9.2 Mbps native bitrate, TrueHD could compress this using a VBR with peaks around 6.6 Mbps and would average around 4.7 Mbps.