I have found recently that there is an issue with my setup. I use full range speakers for all channels. This is to insure that all information (including bass) is directional according to the original intent of the movie tracks. I also use an LFE sub only to output whatever might be on the LFE track. The speakers are supplimented with Vandersteen subs that can go down to the needed levels.

With the processor set to all speakers large and the LFE on, most of the bass output seemed to be coming from the LFE. Mainly with movies with big bass, explosions etc.
So, I left the processor at LFE on, but, turned off the power to the sub. I was shocked to hear that there was very little bass info coming from the speakers. Even though they were set to large.
Next, I set the processor to LFE off, and played the same scenes. There was a tremendous boost in the bass output of the speakers alone. Almost as much as with the LFE turned on. It also more widely spread the surround effects.

I would have thought that having the speakers set to large and the LFE sub on, the room would be loaded with bass from all directions.

Has anyone else experienced this?
Is there just that much information in the LFE alone?
Is there anyway around this? So that full range is ouput at the speakers and the .1 info is sent to the LFE sub?

Thank you

Darren

Set your speakers to "small", your sub to "on", and your LFE crossover to 80 hz.

Set your speakers to "small", your sub to "on", and your LFE crossover to 80 hz.
Why would you just flippantly recommend THAT? :confused: That doesn't address the problems he is describing AT ALL.

The OP explained in detail exactly why he runs his speakers as LARGE and even explained that he supplements his speakers with their own subs. He has a dedicated sub for LFE.

What receiver/processor do you have, Darren? Based upon your description, it definitely sounds like something is amiss. There is quite a bit of bass information in the LARGE speaker channels. Have you tried resetting your processor?

How, exactly, do you have the Vandersteen subs and speakers connected?

Why would you just flippantly recommend THAT? :confused: That doesn't address the problems he is describing AT ALL.

The OP explained in detail exactly why he runs his speakers as LARGE and even explained that he supplements his speakers with their own subs. He has a dedicated sub for LFE.

What receiver/processor do you have, Darren? Based upon your description, it definitely sounds like something is amiss. There is quite a bit of bass information in the LARGE speaker channels. Have you tried resetting your processor?

How, exactly, do you have the Vandersteen subs and speakers connected?

My processor is a Parasound New Classic 7100. The subs I use are the 2Wq. They are very technical in the way they work. Its better if you could please read up on them at 2Wq (http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/2Wqlit.html)

I have also tried an older Parasound AVC - 2500 and an Older ish Yamaha receiver. All had the same results.

Thank you
Darren

So, I left the processor at LFE on, but, turned off the power to the sub. I was shocked to hear that there was very little bass info coming from the speakers. Even though they were set to large.
Next, I set the processor to LFE off, and played the same scenes. There was a tremendous boost in the bass output of the speakers alone. Almost as much as with the LFE turned on. It also more widely spread the surround effects.

I would have thought that having the speakers set to large and the LFE sub on, the room would be loaded with bass from all directions.


Thank you

Darren



By setting the processor to LFE ON and OFF, do you in reality mean the subwoofer is set to ON and OFF?

If so, then there is nothing wrong with your BM. LFE is simply being redirected from your subwoofer output jack to your R & L main speaker channels.

I have been using a similar setup for years (AKA called distributed LFE). There is never a need for a dedicated LFE subwoofer (in my opinion).


By the way, exactly how many subwoofers are you running, and what channels are they connected to? It sounds like 5 plus a dedicated LFE subwoofer, but I am not sure.

If so, then there is nothing wrong with your BM. LFE is simply being redirected from your subwoofer output jack to your R & L main speaker channels.
Please read his initial post carefully and make certain you understand it. He is NOT using any bass management. He has all his speakers set to LARGE, each with their own subs, as well as a dedicated LFE sub. He is NOT running his system like you do (distributed LFE), and he doesn't want to. He has a dedicated subwoofer for LFE and LFE only.

As he describes it, he has no bass in his LARGE channels, which are (even) additionally supplemented with their own subwoofers. Yes, as he described it, his LFE channel is being properly redirected to his mains when he turns it off. That's irrelevant. It is his complaint about a lack of bass in the LARGE channels that is puzzling. Now, I'm not certain how he's testing this other than by using a movie soundtrack, but, as I told him, there should be quite a bit of bass content in any channels he has set to LARGE, especially in light of the fact that they're supplemented with subwoofers.

It's still unclear to me exactly how the subs and speakers are connected, but it seems he IS connecting the speakers' dedicated subs to the correct speaker outputs of his processor. I briefly read over how his subs "work", but it is still unclear to me whether the problem he describes could be unique to how these particular subs are connected.

Darren, do you have a calibration disc? Have you tried downloading a series of bass test tones to more definitively see what is happening with your setup?

How does stereo music sound with your setup? Is there plenty of bass in the front 2 channels? Is your DVD player connected to your processor via a digital connection?

sivadselim, I don't think that my post was "flippant". Who are you, the remarks police?

sivadselim, I don't think that my post was "flippant". Who are you, the remarks police?
Yeah, that's me. Have you not seen me be an ass, here?

What would you call your post? You obviously gave Darren's post a cursory reading and then recommended a very standard, oft-used, catch-all solution that is not at all appropriate for his particular setup. I thought "flippant" was a good choice. I could have said "stupid". :)

Oh, I understand, you're one of those Mind Fu****! You must feel really wonderful knowing that you have nothing else to learn.

Please read his initial post carefully and make certain you understand it. He is NOT using any bass management. He has all speakers set to LARGE, each with their own subs, as well as a dedicated LFE sub.

As he describes it, he has no bass in his LARGE channels, which are (even) additionally supplemented with their own subwoofers. Yes, as he described it, his LFE channel is being properly redirected to his mains when he turns it off. But it is his complaint about a lack of bass in the LARGE channels that is puzzling. Now, I'm not certain how he's testing this other than by using a movie soundtrack, but, as I told him, there should be quite a bit of bass content in any channels he has set to LARGE, especially in light of the fact that they're supplemented with subwoofers.




Those are standard Dolby bass management modes. LFE is either being sent to the LFE subwoofer (AKA L, L, L ,SW-ON), or LFE is being sent to the R & L main speakers (AKA L, L, L, SW-OFF).

With no LFE being sent to the mains, and the subwoofer set to ON, and the LFE subwoofer being powered OFF, then I should expect bass to be "weak" since LFE is being sent to no subwoofer that is powered ON (LFE is in fact OFF).

You can get the same effect by running large main (R&L) speakers (if they are in fact large enough), and filling in the bottom end with stereo (or mono) subwoofers. Sound familiar?

By the way, I have tried all those BM setups (and more) with multiple subwoofers in use. Too many dedicated channel subwoofers will most likely result in poor bass due to setup difficulties (time and phase problems).

In addition, who knows how any particular DVD is mixed? Maybe bass is weak in the non LFE channels of the DVD's in question!

He is NOT running his system like you do (distributed LFE), and he doesn't want to. He has a dedicated subwoofer for LFE and LFE only.




He does when he sets the LFE subwoofer output to OFF in his receiver. He was kind of shocked to find out that his LFE subwoofer does next to nothing while in use (LFE subwoofer set to ON).

He also does not seem to understand that the LFE is sent to his other large channels when the subwoofer is set to OFF in the receiver.

Is there anyway around this? So that full range is ouput at the speakers and the .1 info is sent to the LFE sub?

Thank you

Darren


That is what should happen when you set the BM the way that you have it set.

Have you ever run test tones to confirm that your subwoofers are connected properly, and that they are turned up loud enough?

He does when he sets the LFE subwoofer output to OFF in his receiver. He was kind of shocked to find out that his LFE subwoofer does next to nothing while in use (LFE subwoofer set to ON).
No, that is not what he observes or what he was shocked about. Again, please read his post. He knows that his LFE subwoofer does PLENTY. In fact, by his description, all of his bass comes from his LFE subwoofer. What he described is that he was shocked at how little bass his speakers produce when he leaves his LFE channel ON, but unplugs his LFE subwoofer. His LARGE channels should still produce quite a bit of bass, but they don't. He's not looking for LFE; his LFE sub produces plenty of that. He's looking for the bass (not LFE) that should be in his LARGE channels.




He also does not seem to understand that the LFE is sent to his other large channels when the subwoofer is set to OFF in the receiver.Of course he understand this. That's why he turned it off, to see exactly what happened, in the course of his troubleshooting.


Quit "projecting" your setup on his. He runs a different setup than you.

No, that is not what he observes or what he was shocked about. Again, please read his post. He knows that his LFE subwoofer does PLENTY. What he described is that he was shocked at how little bass his speakers produce when he leaves his LFE channel ON, but unplugs his LFE subwoofer. His LARGE channels should still produce quite a bit of bass, but they don't.




But that's the way a lot of movies are mixed. Bass is there at times, but it is not "loud" in relative terms. When he redirects LFE to his mains, then it sounds just fine.

There is not that much "loud" bass when you remove the LFE signal. Try it yourself. Set your LFE level to OFF if you have that option, and listen to a DVD that you are familiar with.

By the way, I have tried NHT 2.9's as my main speakers (f-3 26 Hz), and in relative terms the bass is not "loud" when there is no LFE signal present. Bass is there and is balanced with the rest of the content.

He may not even have his individual subwoofers turned up loud enough for all that I know, but that is not a BM problem!

Quit "projecting" your setup on his. He runs a different setup than you.



I have run his setup. My present setup it is identical to his subwoofer OFF setup as far as LFE is concerned.

Like the OP said "Next, I set the processor to LFE off, and played the same scenes. There was a tremendous boost in the bass output of the speakers alone. Almost as much as with the LFE turned on. It also more widely spread the surround effects."

That is the effect that distributed LFE gives you. By the wording, I am not sure if he knows that the LFE is in fact ON, but redirected to other speakers.


I have found that there is no benefit to a dedicated center channel subwoofer. Bass redirection is best for that speaker (in my opinion).

Surround bass can be redirected or not. Sort of a tossup there on which is better.


In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with his equipment. Whether or not his specific setup is a good one (in practice) is open to debate!

[QUOTE=sivadselim]No, that is not what he observes or what he was shocked about. Again, please read his post. He knows that his LFE subwoofer does PLENTY. In fact, by his description, all of his bass comes from his LFE subwoofer. What he described is that he was shocked at how little bass his speakers produce when he leaves his LFE channel ON, but unplugs his LFE subwoofer. His LARGE channels should still produce quite a bit of bass, but they don't. He's not looking for LFE; his LFE sub produces plenty of that. He's looking for the bass (not LFE) that should be in his LARGE channels.


Sivadselim - by this quote, is the problem then with his reciever? If he is leaving his LFE as "on" and physically unplugging his sub cable from his sub, how does his receiver handle this?

In my reciever, I can make my speakers "large" and set my LFE channel to "plus" and that gives me way to much bass. I had assumed that that is what he has done with his reciever and that is why I advised him to set his mains to "small" and just use his sub for bass.

Bill

There is not that much "loud" bass when you remove the LFE signal. Try it yourself. Set your LFE level to OFF if you have that option, and listen to a DVD that you are familiar with.Of course, first, I'd need to set my speakers to LARGE, then leave my sub set to ON, and simply turn off my sub.




By the way, I have tried NHT 2.9's as my main speakers (f-3 26 Hz), and in relative terms the bass is not "loud" when there is no LFE signal present. Bass is there and is balanced with the rest of the content. I suspect that I would still hear quite a bit of bass if I tried what you recommend above. Of course, it would vary from movie to movie. But I already know that there is quite a bit of redirected bass sent to my sub when my speakers are set to SMALL, right? That's the whole reason that the SMALL setting is even available on AVRs. He should get quite a bit of bass from his LARGE channels, especially with dedicated subs.




He may not even have his individual subwoofers turned up loud enough for all that I know, but that is not a BM problem!I agree. It could be a problem unique to the way his Vandersteens are connected and adjusted. That's why I asked how his stereo music sounded; devoid of bass or not.

[QUOTE=sivadselim]

In my reciever, I can make my speakers "large" and set my LFE channel to "plus" and that gives me way to much bass. I had assumed that that is what he has done with his reciever and that is why I advised him to set his mains to "small" and just use his sub for bass.




The OP seems to be using 5 subwoofers plus a dedicated LFE subwoofer. Why set the subwoofers (AKA main channels) to small when he has spent all that money for the individual channel bass?

Sivadselim - by this quote, is the problem then with his reciever?He runs a pre-amp/processor with outboard amps, not a receiver. But yes, I wondered if his processor needed "resetting".




If he is leaving his LFE as "on" and physically unplugging his sub cable from his sub, how does his receiver handle this?His "receiver" doesn't care. It doesn't know what's connected to it (or not). The reason he is doing this is to completely remove his LFE sub's bass from the picture so that he can hear how much bass his LARGE channels produce.




In my reciever, I can make my speakers "large" and set my LFE channel to "plus" and that gives me way to much bass. I had assumed that that is what he has done with his reciever and that is why I advised him to set his mains to "small" and just use his sub for bass.He sets his speakers to LARGE and runs a DEDICATED subwoofer for LFE only, so he doesn't want to redirect any other bass to his LFE sub with a PLUS (or LFE+Main) setting. He doesn't have too much bass; he's expecting more bass from his truly LARGE channels.

Of course, first, I'd need to set my speakers to LARGE, then leave my sub set to ON, and simply turn off my sub.



I suspect that I would still hear quite a bit of bass if I tried what you recommend above. Of course, it would vary from movie to movie. But I already know that there is quite a bit of redirected bass sent to my sub when my speakers are set to SMALL, right? That's the whole reason that the SMALL setting is even available n AVRs. He should get quite a bit of bass from his LARGE channels, especially with dedicated subs.





Weak bass and quite a bit of bass are relative terms. If bass is recorded on a channel, the OP should hear it at the levels intended (not as expected).

My experience tells me that surround bass is nearly always pretty weak. Center and main R & L bass is all over the place. LFE bass is simply a higher volume bass with perhaps better frequency extension.

In addition, multiple subwoofers can fight with each other, and lower the quality and volume of the bass. I had to limit myself to three subwoofer locations due to the setup problems involved with multiple subwoofers.






I agree. It could be a problem unique to the way his Vandersteens are connected and adjusted. That's why I asked how his stereo music sounded; devoid of bass or not.


This would be a good setup to use a FR test program like True RTA so he can see what is going on instead of guessing.

He sets his speakers to LARGE and runs a DEDICATED subwoofer for LFE only, so he doesn't want to redirect any other bass to his LFE sub with a PLUS (or LFE+Main) setting. He doesn't have too much bass; he's expecting more bass from his truly LARGE channels.


The OP's expectations may be the problem, and not his basic setup.

Then again, does a simple 2 channel stereo CD play properly on his system (AKA good bass)?

Ok then, with all these subs with amps what are the cross overs set at? Is this causing a conflict from sub to sub?

Ok then, with all these subs with amps what are the cross overs set at? Is this causing a conflict from sub to sub?
He has all his speakers set to LARGE, so he's not using his processor's digital crossover capability.

As far as his LARGE channel's subs are concerned, I'm not really sure how he has their external crossovers set. From reading his sub's manual, it seems he runs his speakers full-range and probably has his subs crossed in at an appropriate frequency.

Cass, as I said, there IS quite a bit of bass in the other channels, particularly the fronts and center, especially if the soundtrack is engineered properly, with some of the low-end effects still mixed into the other channels.

The whole reason there is a SMALL speaker setting is because there IS quite a bit of bass in the non-LFE channels.

Yes, but he said that he did have his LFE channel on so he must have a cross over freq set to something? This is why he is wondering why the room is not fillied with bass from his speakers and LFE sub. And if his mains have subs hooked to them and they are amped, then what is that cross over frq set to? Sub freq conflict?

Yes, but he said that he did have his LFE channel on so he must have a cross over freq set to something?
Why? With his speakers set to LARGE there's nothing being "crossed over" by his processor to his LFE subwoofer. The subwoofer channel is being sent LFE only.

Why? With his speakers set to LARGE there's nothing being "crossed over" by his processor to his LFE subwoofer. The subwoofer channel is being sent LFE only.


He does crossover to the individual channel subwoofers, but not via the processor. That exernal crossover is part of the subwoofer equipment as per the link above.

Cass, as I said, there IS quite a bit of bass in the other channels, particularly the fronts and center, especially if the soundtrack is engineered properly, with some of the low-end effects still mixed into the other channels.

The whole reason there is a SMALL speaker setting is because there IS quite a bit of bass in the non-LFE channels.


Smalls settings exist because there are a lot of speakers that can barely handle 80 Hz, let alone low frequency bass.

If you ever get a chance, play around with 5 large speakers plus a subwoofer. I have tried that setup, and I would prefer 5 small speakers plus stereo subwoofers to the all large setup any day of the week.

He does crossover to the individual channel subwoofers, but not via the processor. That exernal crossover is part of the subwoofer equipment as per the link above.
Yeah, I had said that already in Post#23.

Smalls settings exist because there are a lot of speakers that can barely handle 80 Hz, let alone low frequency bass.So what you're saying is that SMALL settings exist because there is substantial bass content below 80Hz in the non-LFE channels. :)




If you ever get a chance, play around with 5 large speakers plus a subwoofer. I have tried that setup, and I would prefer 5 small speakers plus stereo subwoofers to the all large setup any day of the week.Why? Of course I've set my system up that way before out of curiosity. Hasn't everyone?

I have set my mains to Large and Small. Setting it to Large and the Sub to plus allowed me to have tons of bass from both mains and sub. With that setting, the bass was way too muddy and distorted for my taste. Setting to Large and the sub to just Yes, I had lots of bass on the mains, and alot less bass on the sub and the bass was OK but not as sharp as I liked. For nice clean bass, I run my mains at Small and my sub at 80 hz. Now my setting is to small and this with my sub setup is where it is for me. It all depends on your room and equipment on how your bass sounds to you. We all do different things and experiment for our best sounding bass. The issues is to not lose sight that not everyone has the same hearing or tastes when it comes to HT. You can use the receiver setup and SPL metering, but your ears are still the determining factor for any individual.

Bill

I have set my mains to Large and Small. Setting it to Large and the Sub to plus allowed me to have tons of bass from both mains and sub. With that setting, the bass was way too muddy and distorted for my taste. Setting to Large and the sub to just Yes, I had lots of bass on the mains, and alot less bass on the sub and the bass was OK but not as sharp as I liked. For nice clean bass, I run my mains at Small and my sub at 80 hz. Now my setting is to small and this with my sub setup is where it is for me. It all depends on your room and equipment on how your bass sounds to you. We all do different things and experiment for our best sounding bass. The issues is to not lose sight that not everyone has the same hearing or tastes when it comes to HT. You can use the receiver setup and SPL metering, but your ears are still the determining factor for any individual.
Uh, ........................... yeah. Most people know to run their speakers as SMALL if they're not truly capable of reaching down low enough (at least 30Hz, maybe even lower) to be run as LARGE.

But what we're trying to figure out is what may be wrong with the OP's system. We know that he doesn't want to bass manage anything, but instead wants to run his set up the way that movies were really meant to be played back; with all the speakers truly LARGE and a dedicated LFE subwoofer. His system, based upon his description, should be capable of doing this.

It's where his non-LFE bass is going that's the question. Still need to know how it sounds with stereo music.

Hi,

To clear up any misunderstandings regarding my OP. It's confusing enough to explain in person, let alone type it.

What I am getting goes against every manual and info I have read regarding Dolby digital setup.

According to Dolby, If all of the speakers are set to "large" then each channel should recieve the full frequency range of output, regardless of the LFE sub.
The LFE subwoofer in this case should only be producing the .1 part of the soundtrack.
The bass output to the speakers is greatly reduced when the sub (LFE) is set to "on" in the processor.

This brings me back to one of my orig questions:
"Is there just that much information in the LFE alone?" for the .1 part only.

For 2 channel analog sources, the bass for the mains is perfect and deep.

I have a demo DVD that me friend and I made that has many scenes with great bass used for adjusting our setups. I have played many of the scenes and found this "problem" to exist in every one. It's as though "most" of the bass energy is in the LFE only. I was under the impression that the LFE was for supplement only.

If there is anyone out there that has a setup with all channels set to large that could try this, I would appreciate some feedback from another setup.

Also, this has nothing to do with taste. It has to do with the lack of bass energy from the speakers with this setup.

The subs that are used go waaaay down below 20hz (I use REQ wizard)

Bass from 20hz - 80hz being non-directional is a myth. Try it for yourself. Having all of the speakers set to large causes a great increase in the patial relations between the channels.

Try the minefield scene from Behind Enemy Lines. The bass in the explosions will come from further from the right and left with this setup.

This is the main point of doing it this way.

Darren

Darren,

You're not using a THX setting, are you?

Bass from 20hz - 80hz being non-directional is a myth. Try it for yourself. Having all of the speakers set to large causes a great increase in the patial relations between the channels.

Try the minefield scene from Behind Enemy Lines. The bass in the explosions will come from further from the right and left with this setup.

This is the main point of doing it this way.

Darren



I have found that bass below around 50 Hz is non directional. That's where my mono subwoofers take over from my main speakers. LFE from 120 Hz to 50 Hz is primarily reproduced by my main speakers, and 50 Hz on down is primarily reproduced from dual stacked subwoofers (mono).


Some research below:

http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~wlm/private/preprints/aes2004sanfrancisco.pdf


QUOTE:

"If the multichannel stereophonic sound system is located in a reverberant environment (i.e., a vanishing small number are not), the obtained results are in good agreement with conclusions drawn by Griesinger [2]. The combined results of the current experiments converge on a cutoff-frequency boundary between 50 Hz and 63Hz, above which spatial imagery will degrade if decorrelated information in the main channels is simply summed to a single channel and fed to a single driver."

I have a demo DVD that me friend and I made that has many scenes with great bass used for adjusting our setups. I have played many of the scenes and found this "problem" to exist in every one. It's as though "most" of the bass energy is in the LFE only. I was under the impression that the LFE was for supplement only.

If there is anyone out there that has a setup with all channels set to large that could try this, I would appreciate some feedback from another setup.

Also, this has nothing to do with taste. It has to do with the lack of bass energy from the speakers with this setup.

Darren


I have tried that setup. Seemed to be a waste of equipment the way I saw it at the time.

You are in fact locked into the mix of the DVD. There is just not that much "loud" and "deep" bass in the other screen channels. By loud and deep bass, I mean as compared with the LFE channel.

There are plenty of moments when the bass from the other channels is noticable, but that LFE channel sure gives the bass an extra kick in the pants!

I have tried that setup. Seemed to be a waste of equipment the way I saw it at the time.
Um............................. according to your "Holy Dolby" THAT setup is optimal and is exactly how movie soundtracks are engineered and meant to be played back; LARGE, full-range speakers and a dedicated LFE sub. And there IS quite a bit of bass in the LARGE channels. That's why they specifiy LARGE, full-range speakers. And that's exactly WHY Dolby recommends there be bass management capabilities in AVRs and a SMALL speaker setting; they're acknowledging that there IS quite a bit of bass in the LARGE channels on modern DVD soundtracks that can't be properly handled by most living room HT setups. C'mon, you know all this. Quit being stubborn.

(BTW, I tried setting my speakers to LARGE, sub=YES, with my subwoofer turned off, and demoed several DVDs, and there IS a lot of bass in the LARGE channels, even in the surrounds. You recommended I do this, but have YOU even tried this? Because I honestly don't know how you could say that there isn't much bass in the non-LFE channels.)




There is just not that much "loud" and "deep" bass in the other screen channels. By loud and deep bass, I mean as compared with the LFE channel.

There are plenty of moments when the bass from the other channels is noticable, but that LFE channel sure gives the bass an extra kick in the pants!
Nope, I still think that something is wrong with his setup either on the speaker end or in his processor. THERE IS A LOT OF BASS IN THE NON-LFE CHANNELS. I don't really know why you keep saying that there isn't.

Darren, have you tried resetting your processor?

Darren,

You're not using a THX setting, are you?

No, THX is turned off.

Um............................. according to your "Holy Dolby" THAT setup is optimal and is exactly how movie soundtracks are engineered and meant to be played back; LARGE, full-range speakers and a dedicated LFE sub. And there IS quite a bit of bass in the LARGE channels. That's why they specifiy LARGE, full-range speakers. And that's exactly WHY Dolby recommends there be bass management capabilities in AVRs and a SMALL speaker setting; they're acknowledging that there IS quite a bit of bass in the LARGE channels on modern DVD soundtracks. C'mon, you know all this.

(BTW, I tried setting my speakers to LARGE, sub=YES, with my subwoofer turned off, and demoed several DVDs, and there IS a lot of bass in the LARGE channels, even in the surrounds. You recommended I do this, but have YOU even tried this? Because I honestly don't know how you could say that there isn't much bass in the non-LFE channels.)





No, I still think that something wrong with his setup either on the speaker end or in his processor. THERE IS A LOT OF BASS IN THE NON-LFE CHANNELS. I don't really know why you keep saying that there isn't.

Darren, have you tried resetting your processor?

Could you please tell me some of the dvd scenes that you have tried?

There really is a dramatic difference (in a bad way) If I turn off the LFE. Only one scene had a little bass with the LFE off "Giant Robots Attack" from Sky Captain and the World Of Tomorrow.

I could try resetting my proc. However, in my OP I mentioned that I have tried to other DD processors. One in an older Pre/pro and the other a receiver. Got the same results.

Thank you
Darren

This is a question to anyone: I have looked at various speakers on the net and most of them don't go lower than 35 to 60 hz. Just how much bass is there in that range? To take full advantage of low bass in speakers, don't they have to get down to 20 hz or so? Hey, I'm only asking for my own education.

Thanx for the info, Bill :) :) :)

Could you please tell me some of the dvd scenes that you have tried?
Heck, any of the usual suspects; Nemo, U571, Black Hawk Down, ATOC. I didn't even try to go to the scenes that are the most often referenced as having great bass. I just started the DVDs up and skipped from chapter to chapter. It became immediately obvious that there IS a lot of bass in the non-LFE channels.




I could try resetting my proc. However, in my OP I mentioned that I have tried to other DD processors. One in an older Pre/pro and the other a receiver. Got the same results.

How is your DVD player connected, digitally or multichannel analog?

This is a question to anyone: I have looked at various speakers on the net and most of them don't go lower than 35 to 60 hz. Just how much bass is there in that range? In what range? 35 to 60Hz? Or lower? Per Dolby's specifications, there can be quite a bit of low bass in the non-LFE channels. The SMALL setting on AVRs is there to relieve the non-LFE channel speakers of having to reproduce that low bass, and redirect it to the subwoofer.



To take full advantage of low bass in speakers, don't they have to get down to 20 hz or so? Hey, I'm only asking for my own education.

How low speakers have to go to be considered truly LARGE is arguable. Some people say 30Hz or lower. In Darren's case, he says his non-LFE channels can go lower than 20Hz.

Although the bass capabilities of the speakers is the main determinant of whether speakers should be set to SMALL or LARGE, there are additional advantages to setting speakers to SMALL. One advantage to the SMALL setting is that it allows the speakers to work less hard to reproduce those frequecies that they are sent. This provides for cleaner, more accurate, mid-bass (and midrange, in 2-way speakers) reproduction. Another advantage of the SMALL setting is that it removes the stress of having to reproduce the low frequencies from the amplifiers, also allowing for cleaner, more accurate, reproduction of those frequencies that they are amplifying.

Now, all that said, with a very capable system, as it seems Darren has, there is no need to use the SMALL settings; particularly in his case, where he has subwoofers connected to his non-LFE channels. I'm not certain what his main channels' amplification is, but I am assuming it is quite capable since he runs separates.

Thank you for the answer. In Darrens case then, he must have had a hell of a time setting up all those sub woofers in order to get just the right bass that he wanted. I would assume that he has his HT in an dedicated room and that is all that the room is for (not living room).

Anyway, thanx a lot, Bill :) :) :)

Heck, any of the usual suspects; Nemo, U571, Black Hawk Down, ATOC. I didn't even try to go to the scenes that are the most often referenced as having great bass. I just started the DVDs up and skipped from chapter to chapter. It became immediately obvious that there IS a lot of bass in the non-LFE channels.





How is your DVD player connected, digitally or multichannel analog?

Digitally. My main is an HTPC. I have tried a DVD player also.

I know those "suspects", most of those movies are represented on our demo dvd. I was hoping you could be more specific. Describing which scenes or chapters. For instance, for U-571 were you referring to chapter 15 'Depth Charged"?

Try Attack of The Clones, chapter 2 "Return to Coruscant". From where
big ship comes into the scene to after the explosion on the platform. Use my setup. I get almost no bass as opposed to when the LFE is powered on

Darren

When mixes are intended for theatrical presentation, it is sometimes necessary to use an additional channel for extra low frequency effects or enhancement. This is why they call the channel the LFE or Low Frequency Effects/Enhancements channel. In the control room monitoring environment, the LFE channel, if or when it is used in the mix, is monitored by the same subwoofer used for the regular [L,C,R,LS,RS] channels. In the home playback environment, the LFE channel, when encoded on the playback disc, gets summed with the already bass-managed below 80 Hz program material signal, and is then sent out the subwoofer connector. The home subwoofer, then, just like the control room subwoofer, reproduces everything below 80 Hz from all 5 surround channels and the LFE information, if any. If using a left sub and right sub AND a dedicated LFE sub, this third sub is mainly for headroom.

Darren,

Forget about Dolby and DVDs for a moment. Just play a *CD* with some rock music or other music with lots of bass. The subwoofer will be silent, of course, since you set your speakers to LARGE. Sound will only come from the front L/R. Do the L/R mains sound anemic or is the bass coming through loud and proud? If the latter, then it may be that the DVDs you're auditioning just don't have lots of bass mixed into their nonLFE channels. If the CD sounds anemic too, then you may have issues with your room acoustics or the way your nonLFE speakers are set up.

Darren,

Forget about Dolby and DVDs for a moment. Just play a *CD* with some rock music or other music with lots of bass. The subwoofer will be silent, of course, since you set your speakers to LARGE. Sound will only come from the front L/R. Do the L/R mains sound anemic or is the bass coming through loud and proud? If the latter, then it may be that the DVDs you're auditioning just don't have lots of bass mixed into their nonLFE channels. If the CD sounds anemic too, then you may have issues with your room acoustics or the way your nonLFE speakers are set up.

And maybe the LFE level is not correctly calibrated.

And to add to all of this, If you not using a DVD and streaming from your PC, then you could have issues. On the DEMO forum, some of the discs that were made and then downloaded from the server, some of the tracks were in stereo and no 5.1. It has to do with how the program that you are using for burning discs and/or copying DVDs to your PC really is handling all the information needed for 5.1. Good software like Neo 7 works just fine for copying and making DVDs. Like the previous posts say, use a regular DVD or music DVD and see if you have any problems like you described.

Darren,

Forget about Dolby and DVDs for a moment. Just play a *CD* with some rock music or other music with lots of bass. The subwoofer will be silent, of course, since you set your speakers to LARGE. Sound will only come from the front L/R. Do the L/R mains sound anemic or is the bass coming through loud and proud? If the latter, then it may be that the DVDs you're auditioning just don't have lots of bass mixed into their nonLFE channels. If the CD sounds anemic too, then you may have issues with your room acoustics or the way your nonLFE speakers are set up.

If you read my posts. I did mention this. music is great. lots of bass

Darren

When mixes are intended for theatrical presentation, it is sometimes necessary to use an additional channel for extra low frequency effects or enhancement. This is why they call the channel the LFE or Low Frequency Effects/Enhancements channel. In the control room monitoring environment, the LFE channel, if or when it is used in the mix, is monitored by the same subwoofer used for the regular [L,C,R,LS,RS] channels. In the home playback environment, the LFE channel, when encoded on the playback disc, gets summed with the already bass-managed below 80 Hz program material signal, and is then sent out the subwoofer connector. The home subwoofer, then, just like the control room subwoofer, reproduces everything below 80 Hz from all 5 surround channels and the LFE information, if any. If using a left sub and right sub AND a dedicated LFE sub, this third sub is mainly for headroom.


I don't understand. All of my speakers are set to large in the processor. This should send 20-20khz to the speakers.

Darren

And maybe the LFE level is not correctly calibrated.

It is, I've used an SPL meter and DVE, Avia, and the tones from the processor.

Darren

And to add to all of this, If you not using a DVD and streaming from your PC, then you could have issues. On the DEMO forum, some of the discs that were made and then downloaded from the server, some of the tracks were in stereo and no 5.1. It has to do with how the program that you are using for burning discs and/or copying DVDs to your PC really is handling all the information needed for 5.1. Good software like Neo 7 works just fine for copying and making DVDs. Like the previous posts say, use a regular DVD or music DVD and see if you have any problems like you described.


I made the demo. All of the tracks are definatly 5.1. Some are AC3 and some are DTS.

However, just for giggles, I will grab the originals and try them.

Darren

When mixes are intended for theatrical presentation, it is sometimes necessary to use an additional channel for extra low frequency effects or enhancement. This is why they call the channel the LFE or Low Frequency Effects/Enhancements channel. In the control room monitoring environment, the LFE channel, if or when it is used in the mix, is monitored by the same subwoofer used for the regular [L,C,R,LS,RS] channels. In the home playback environment, the LFE channel, when encoded on the playback disc, gets summed with the already bass-managed below 80 Hz program material signal, and is then sent out the subwoofer connector. The home subwoofer, then, just like the control room subwoofer, reproduces everything below 80 Hz from all 5 surround channels and the LFE information, if any. If using a left sub and right sub AND a dedicated LFE sub, this third sub is mainly for headroom.
Completely irrelevant. :confused: Read his initial post. He runs all his speakers as LARGE plus a dedicated LFE subwoofer. There is no bass management going on.

And maybe the LFE level is not correctly calibrated.
Also irrelevant. His LFE sub is working fine. He has no bass in his LARGE non-LFE channels.

It is, I've use an SPL and DVE, Avia, and the tones from the processor.

Darren

And using an SPL meter I assume? Is the LFE sub calibrated to the same SPL as the main speakers?

And using an SPL meter I assume? Is the LFE sub calibrated to the same SPL as the main speakers?

Yeah, but that makes no difference as to what the speakers should be doing

Darren

BTW a friend of mine is getting the same results as myself.

Yeah, but that makes no difference as to what the speakers should be doing

Darren

My bad, I got mixed up and was thinking you weren't getting enough out of the LFE channel and had the LFE level too low. You were saying you were getting too much so I had it backwards.

Digitally. My main is an HTPC. I have tried a DVD player also.

I know those "suspects", most of those movies are represented on our demo dvd. I was hoping you could be more specific. Describing which scenes or chapters. For instance, for U-571 were you referring to chapter 15 'Depth Charged"?


Darren


I tried a few scenes for U-571 since everyone seems to mention it. DVD player used, DD version used, no DRC, 5.1 speaker setup, dedicated subwoofer covers 50 Hz and below (LFE and redirected bass).

Volume setting - 6dB below calibrated reference level (receiver tones)

Dialnorm = 27

Digital RS meter set to MAX and FAST, C scale

Speaker Setting Size Code Mains, Center, Surrounds, Subwoofer ON, LFE OFF/ON

My center and surround speakers are small & sealed (6 1/2" f3 = 60Hz), so setting them to large does not mean much. 80 Hz small crossovers, 120 Hz high cut filter for LFE.



Time: 47:47 - 48:05 Torpedo hit on sub

L L L & SW ON LFE ON ___ 109 dB PEAK

L S S & SW ON LFE ON ___ 109 to 110 dB PEAK

L L L & SW ON LFE OFF ___ 98 dB PEAK

L S S & SW ON LFE OFF ___ 109 to 110 dB PEAK


LFE does not make much of a difference. Plenty of other bass in scene.




Time: 1:12:36 - 1:13:00 Gun Shot on Destroyer


L L L & SW ON LFE ON ___ 108 dB PEAK

L S S & SW ON LFE ON ___ 109 to 110 dB PEAK

L L L & SW ON LFE OFF ___ 96 dB PEAK

L S S & SW ON LFE OFF ___ 105 to 107 dB PEAK


LFE does make a difference. Plenty of other bass in scene, but LFE is noticable.




Time: 1:17:00 - 1:18:00 Depth Charge

L L L & SW ON LFE ON ___ 107 dB PEAK

L S S & SW ON LFE ON ___ 112 dB PEAK

L L L & SW ON LFE OFF ___ 98 dB PEAK

L S S & SW ON LFE OFF ___ 113 dB PEAK


LFE does not make much of a difference. Plenty of other bass in scene, but LFE is barely noticable.

I should had explained the motive of my post. I know he uses the large setting on his satellites, but I always try to persuade people of the advantage of using bass management and true LFE. With bass management implemented it sounds as if all speakers play 20-20, even though they are not.

I should had explained the motive of my post. I know he uses the large setting on his satellites, but I always try to persuade people of the advantage of using bass management and true LFE. With bass management implemented it sounds as if all speakers play 20-20, even though they are not.
He has subwoofers connected to his non-LFE channels. He said they were capable of sub-20Hz. His setup, with all LARGE speakers and a dedicated LFE sub is actually the way movies were intended to be played back. Bass management is a compromise solution for the majority of HT setups that don't have truly LARGE speakers for their non-LFE channels.

Digitally. My main is an HTPC. I have tried a DVD player also.

Darren

Could your source(s) be summing the bass and LFE into the .1 channel before sending it to your processor?

- Chris

Could your source(s) be summing the bass and LFE into the .1 channel before sending it to your processor?

With a digital connection, it shouldn't be. His processor is doing all the processing.

If you read my posts. I did mention this. music is great. lots of bass

Darren


You mentioned only '2 channel analog sources' with no elaboration. Let's be thorough. How do 2-channel sources, played via a digital connection, sound when played back as 2-channel output (no DPL II, Logic 7 etc)?

And now you mention that a friend of yours is getting the same result -- with what setup?

You mentioned only '2 channel analog sources' with no elaboration. Let's be thorough. How do 2-channel sources, played via a digital connection, sound when played back as 2-channel output (no DPL II, Logic 7 etc)?

And now you mention that a friend of yours is getting the same result -- with what setup?

I play 2 channel sources (stereo music, FLAC, MP3 etc) digitally from my computer to the Pre/Pro as stereo output. No DSP. No processing other than the DAC. I get plenty of bass as I do with analog sources.

Friend is experiencing same issue, with same equipment. (We get a lot of the same stuff)

It seems to be boiling down to this:
Most of the big DVD movies are being mixed by the engineer to have most of the bass energy on the LFE track only. This, would be contrary to what Dolby says about DD regarding encoding.

"* The sound information contained in each of the six available channels is distinct and independent. These six channels are described as a "5.1-channel" system, because there are five full-bandwidth channels with 3 Hz to 20 kHz frequency range for Front Left and Right, Center, and Surround, plus one "Low Frequency Effects" (LFE) subwoofer channel devoted to frequencies from 3 to 120 Hz."

This, kind of sucks for those of us who bought equipment that has the capability for producing the full range of sound for every channel

Darren

Darren

I gave some SPL numbers and scenes for U-571. Have you tried any comparisons?

Darren

I gave some SPL numbers and scenes for U-571. Have you tried any comparisons?

Not yet. But, If I read your results correctly, when you have all set to large sub on in reciever, but subwoofer turned off, there is a significant drop in SPL. 10 to 14 db

I appreciate the info. Very much.

Its the real shake rattle and roll (low down bass) that seems to be missing from mutlichannel. The stuff you can feel as much as hear. Which does exists while playing 2 channel music. Example: Rap channel from Music Choice (digital from cable box to Processor. processor set to 2 channel stereo PCM with no DSP). It shakes the room. With the 2 main speakers and thier supplimental subs.

I really need someone else with speakers capable of full range to do a cpl of listening tests. It seems that although my setup is ideal according to Dolby (of which I am still reading docs) this is not the case in "the real world".


Darren

It seems to be boiling down to this:
Most of the big DVD movies are being mixed by the engineer to have most of the bass energy on the LFE track only. nope

Not yet. But, If I read your results correctly, when you have all set to large sub on in reciever, but subwoofer turned off, there is a significant drop in SPL. 10 to 14 db

I appreciate the info. Very much.

Its the real shake rattle and roll (low down bass) that seems to be missing from mutlichannel. The stuff you can feel as much as hear. Which does exists while playing 2 channel music. Example: Rap channel from Music Choice (digital from cable box to Processor. processor set to 2 channel stereo PCM with no DSP). It shakes the room. With the 2 main speakers and thier supplimental subs.

I really need someone else with speakers capable of full range to do a cpl of listening tests. It seems that although my setup is ideal according to Dolby (of which I am still reading docs) this is not the case in "the real world".


Darren




That would be all large, sub ON, LFE turned OFF. My receiver lets me cut LFE in 1 dB steps from 0 dB (Full LFE) to OFF (No LFE). Since the LFE signal is boosted by 10 dB, there should be more oomph to the bass when LFE is being used no matter what the speaker configuration is.

Another thing that you should test is where does the LFE signal go to when you set the subwoofer to OFF and the LFE to 0 dB (full LFE). Does the LFE got to all large speakers in that setup, of only to some of them (like R & L mains)?

Perhaps the only change that you "need" to make is to eliminate that dedicated LFE subwoofer. Another thing that may be happening is that you may be listening to DVD's at too low a level to hear the bass from the main channels. 2 channel stereo plays back at higher levels than DVD's due to the fact that they are not a calibrated medium.


Also, the mixers do what they want to do. That is not a Dolby issue. From what I can tell, your setup should be fine as is. Whether or not it is overkill (AKA subwoofers all around) in the real world is another matter. For example, it is probably rare for there to be much deep bass in the surround channels. Which brings up something else. How many subwoofers do you have for the surround channels? 1, 2 or 4?

It seems to be boiling down to this:
Most of the big DVD movies are being mixed by the engineer to have most of the bass energy on the LFE track only. This, would be contrary to what Dolby says about DD regarding encoding.

"* The sound information contained in each of the six available channels is distinct and independent. These six channels are described as a "5.1-channel" system, because there are five full-bandwidth channels with 3 Hz to 20 kHz frequency range for Front Left and Right, Center, and Surround, plus one "Low Frequency Effects" (LFE) subwoofer channel devoted to frequencies from 3 to 120 Hz."

This, kind of sucks for those of us who bought equipment that has the capability for producing the full range of sound for every channel

Darren


The sound mixers do their own thing. Just because Dolby gives them full range capabilities, that does not mean that they are used to the maximum at all times. There is nothing consistent as far as where the bass is located in various DVD mixes. But loud bass is obviously located on the LFE channel simply because of the 10 dB of LFE boost at decoding.

Some DVD's are mixed with more LFE than other DVD's. The only way I can tell is to replay a specific bass scene with LFE turned to OFF. If the deep and loud bass goes away with the OFF, it was a LFE dominant bass scene.

For example, it is probably rare for there to be much deep bass in the surround channels. Which brings up something else. How many subwoofers do you have for the surround channels? 1, 2 or 4?

Actually you would be surprised. There are DVD's with lots of bass in the surrounds. I was surprised at first. U-571 I know of. Some of the depth charge explosions come from surrounds

2 subs. One for each channel.

Darren

Not yet. But, If I read your results correctly, when you have all set to large sub on in reciever, but subwoofer turned off, there is a significant drop in SPL. 10 to 14 db

I appreciate the info. Very much.

Its the real shake rattle and roll (low down bass) that seems to be missing from mutlichannel. The stuff you can feel as much as hear. Which does exists while playing 2 channel music. Example: Rap channel from Music Choice (digital from cable box to Processor. processor set to 2 channel stereo PCM with no DSP). It shakes the room. With the 2 main speakers and thier supplimental subs.

I really need someone else with speakers capable of full range to do a cpl of listening tests. It seems that although my setup is ideal according to Dolby (of which I am still reading docs) this is not the case in "the real world".


Darren

Well, 'low down bass' (~20-50 Hz; IIRC the frequency range of DD LFE extends to 120 Hz) in 5.1 DVDs would tend to be put mainly/exclusively in the LFE channel, obviously unlike on a CD. Are you sure you aren't simply experiencing DD/DTS as intended? With these formats , you should not expect the mains/surrounds to contain much material that exploits the very bottom end of the audible/visceral frequency spectrum .

Actually you would be surprised. There are DVD's with lots of bass in the surrounds. I was surprised at first. U-571 I know of. Some of the depth charge explosions come from surrounds

perhaps, but is the really low-freq component (50 Hz and lower) of the explosions coming from the surrounds during these explosions, or is it shared with the LFE, or is it mainly in the LFE? The 'localization' cues will be higher frequencies than that, so if you 'hear' explosions coming from the surrounds, it doesn't necessarily mean the low bass is coming from them.

"5.1-channel audio typically consists of five discrete, full range main channels (Left,
Center, Right, Left Surround, and Right Surround) plus an optional band-limited Low
Frequency Effects (LFE) channel for added bass (the .1). Dolby Digital bitstreams
deliver full frequency bandwidth main channels, from 3 Hz to 20 kHz, and a limited
frequency bandwidth LFE channel, from 3 Hz to 120 Hz. " - Except from Dolby White paper entitled
"5.1-Channel Production Guidelines"

I am not getting this with most dvd's. I think someone has been fibbing to us.

Darren

I think someone has been fibbing to us.

It doesn't say that the sound engineer MUST utilize the full-range capabilities of the non-LFE channels.

That said, I still think there is something wrong with your setup. Even though you say that your setup behaves the same way with a digitally-connected DVD player as the source, and even though you say you are using a digital connection from your soundcard, I suspect your problem somehow (beats me?) has something to do with the way your soundcard or its software may be processing/outputting your digital signal.

I know that makes no sense WHATSOEVER but, based upon the info you have given in this thread, I can't come up with any other explanation.

:confused:

I always thought that when one has LFE turned on, all the bass goes the LFE output. 'natch, there's none going to the speakers in the configuration.

It doesn't say that the sound engineer MUST utilize the full-range capabilities of the non-LFE channels.


:confused:


Exactly! Dolby does not mix the soundtrack!

I watched The Last Samurai last night, and set the LFE to OFF as a retest of some loud bass scenes. To my surprise, the LFE did not make that much of a difference is the bass department. There was plenty of bass in the main channels.

Other movies put less bass in the main channels, and more in the LFE channel. We are captive to the audio mix, and that's the way it is.

For the record, I think that his system is fine. His expectations on how a movie should be mixed is another thing!

I always thought that when one has LFE turned on, all the bass goes the LFE output. 'natch, there's none going to the speakers in the configuration.
Huh? :confused:

Ummm............................ that would depend entirely upon what size, LARGE or SMALL, you have your non-LFE channels set to.

What do you mean by "all the bass"? Bass and LFE channel content are 2 different things.

For the record, I think that his system is fine.
I don't think so. The Last Samurai is not the only example, by far, of a movie with significant low-end energy in the main channels. I don't know if he's tried The Last Samurai but he's tried many different movies with the same result; anemic bass in the LARGE main channels.

I always thought that when one has LFE turned on, all the bass goes the LFE output. 'natch, there's none going to the speakers in the configuration.


The LFE will go to the subwoofer output if the subwoofer output is turned ON. With all other speakers set to large, then only the LFE is sent to the subwoofer output jack. All the other bass remains in the original channels.

If the subwoofer output is turned OFF, then LFE is sent to other large speaker channels. Which channels LFE is sent to in his receiver with all large speakers and the subwoofer set to OFF is a question.

I don't think so. The Last Samurai is not the only example, by far, of a movie with significant low-end energy in the main channels. I don't know if he's tried The Last Samurai but he's tried many different movies with the same result; anemic bass in the LARGE main channels.


Then why did he write the following if his system is not working?

"Actually you would be surprised. There are DVD's with lots of bass in the surrounds. I was surprised at first. U-571 I know of. Some of the depth charge explosions come from surrounds."

Kind of hard to hear that effect if his system is not working right!



Anyhow, Master and Commander is weak in the bass department if the LFE is turned OFF. So is War of the Worlds on the scenes that I have tested with LFE set to OFF.

Then why did he write the following if his system is not working?

"Actually you would be surprised. There are DVD's with lots of bass in the surrounds. I was surprised at first. U-571 I know of. Some of the depth charge explosions come from surrounds."

Kind of hard to hear that effect if his system is not working right!
Yeah, I wondered the same thing when he first posted that. And his surrounds are apparently set to SMALL (if I'm reading correctly), which makes the statement even more confusing.

But he is pretty emphatic that there is NO bass in his LARGE mains (which are supplemented with their own subwoofers) when he unplugs/disconnects/turns off his dedicated LFE subwoofer. Based upon his less than amateur setup and the knowledge that he clearly demonstrates regarding how his system should sound, I do trust his ears. His system, by his description, behaves as if his speakers are set to SMALL.

I'd be curious as to whether he has tried resetting his processor or if there is, perhaps, some known issue with his processor. I think it'd be worth shooting an email to the manufacturer regarding his problem just to see what they say.

Yeah, I wondered the same thing when he first posted that. And his surrounds are apparently set to SMALL (if I'm reading correctly), which makes the statement even more confusing.




No, his surrounds are set to large. I asked him how many surround subwoofers he was using in a posting above. He said 2, one for each channel.

I still think that it is his source material.


Remember this quote from a previous posting?

"I have a demo DVD that me friend and I made that has many scenes with great bass used for adjusting our setups. I have played many of the scenes and found this "problem" to exist in every one. It's as though "most" of the bass energy is in the LFE only. I was under the impression that the LFE was for supplement only."

I looked at your subwoofers on the web page. If you have the crossover that came with the subs hooked up the way that it is shown on the Vandersteen web page the correct way to set it up in your pre-amp is with the following: Left and Right front set to large, No LFE or subwoofer which ever is the choice. If you tell the pre-pro that you have a LFE sub it will divert bass that should be playing out of the subs hooked to the Vandys to a nonexistant subwoofer.

Another point to consider is why BM was introduced in the first place - so that you can actually here all of the low bass. This was one of the points that separated the THX theatre systems from all others, and naturally it found its way into our homes. The idea of full range speakers plus a sub-woofer is novel, but seldom optimal as the OP is experiencing.

Sub-woofers are placement dependent, so he might just be experiencing some bad room modes that are causing cancellation between the other sub that are a part of the main "large" channels as has been mentioned in earlier posts.

The Sub reproducing the LFE is not interacting with the other subs and might be better placed do is reproducing loud bass. What is ideal for best imaging is seldom best for a flat in room response from a sub-woofer.

The fact that bass is louder from the LFE sub also comes from the fact that the LFE track is louder by design than bass from the main channels...

Mark

I looked at your subwoofers on the web page. If you have the crossover that came with the subs hooked up the way that it is shown on the Vandersteen web page the correct way to set it up in your pre-amp is with the following: Left and Right front set to large, No LFE or subwoofer which ever is the choice. If you tell the pre-pro that you have a LFE sub it will divert bass that should be playing out of the subs hooked to the Vandys to a nonexistant subwoofer.


He has a dedicated subwoofer just for LFE!

Another point to consider is why BM was introduced in the first place - so that you can actually here all of the low bass. This was one of the points that separated the THX theatre systems from all others, and naturally it found its way into our homes. The idea of full range speakers plus a sub-woofer is novel, but seldom optimal as the OP is experiencing.

Sub-woofers are placement dependent, so he might just be experiencing some bad room modes that are causing cancellation between the other sub that are a part of the main "large" channels as has been mentioned in earlier posts.

The Sub reproducing the LFE is not interacting with the other subs and might be better placed do is reproducing loud bass. What is ideal for best imaging is seldom best for a flat in room response from a sub-woofer.

The fact that bass is louder from the LFE sub also comes from the fact that the LFE track is louder by design than bass from the main channels...

Mark


Does he have a problem with his system?

He only said that if he turns off the LFE subwoofer (power only), then the bass is "weak" with his "demo material" (not original recordings).

That could mean a lot of things, but I now doubt that he has a real problem with his system.

I would have tested each subwoofer pair for interaction and FR, but then again I would not have gone that all large route anyhow. Too many potential bass interaction problems (as I have confirmed via testing in the past).

It doesn't say that the sound engineer MUST utilize the full-range capabilities of the non-LFE channels.

That said, I still think there is something wrong with your setup. Even though you say that your setup behaves the same way with a digitally-connected DVD player as the source, and even though you say you are using a digital connection from your soundcard, I suspect your problem somehow (beats me?) has something to do with the way your soundcard or its software may be processing/outputting your digital signal.

I know that makes no sense WHATSOEVER but, based upon the info you have given in this thread, I can't come up with any other explanation.

:confused:

I posted this before. I have a friend with the same setup, He is using an older processor, but gets the same result. He was actually the person that initiated the testing of my system to see if I get the same. We have tried other various equipment with no change.

Regarding the surround channels (which are set to large, as are all of the speakers). The bass that is heard from the surrounds is greater than without a sub, but still should be more with my setup as they have dedicated subs.

Darren

I looked at your subwoofers on the web page. If you have the crossover that came with the subs hooked up the way that it is shown on the Vandersteen web page the correct way to set it up in your pre-amp is with the following: Left and Right front set to large, No LFE or subwoofer which ever is the choice. If you tell the pre-pro that you have a LFE sub it will divert bass that should be playing out of the subs hooked to the Vandys to a nonexistant subwoofer.

However, I spoke with Richard Vandersteen in person. He also uses an LFE sub in his own home theater (5 subs altogether). If a definitive answer cannot be derived from this thread, then, I plan on speaking with him.

Darren

Another point to consider is why BM was introduced in the first place - so that you can actually here all of the low bass. This was one of the points that separated the THX theatre systems from all others, and naturally it found its way into our homes. The idea of full range speakers plus a sub-woofer is novel, but seldom optimal as the OP is experiencing.

Sub-woofers are placement dependent, so he might just be experiencing some bad room modes that are causing cancellation between the other sub that are a part of the main "large" channels as has been mentioned in earlier posts.

The Sub reproducing the LFE is not interacting with the other subs and might be better placed do is reproducing loud bass. What is ideal for best imaging is seldom best for a flat in room response from a sub-woofer.

The fact that bass is louder from the LFE sub also comes from the fact that the LFE track is louder by design than bass from the main channels...

Mark

When I play 2 channel music from the same source. The bass is loud and deep. Such as the track Track Nr. 10 Yim Hok-Man, Master of Chinese Percussion, "Poem of Chinese Drums" from the Burmester Cd 3. The Chinese drums hit hard on your chest.

I have examined the room many times with Room Eq Wizard. With subs individually and as many combinations as I could test. Get a fairley flat response (with added room curve).

Darren

Does he have a problem with his system?

He only said that if he turns off the LFE subwoofer (power only), then the bass is "weak" with his "demo material" (not original recordings).

That could mean a lot of things, but I now doubt that he has a real problem with his system.

I would have tested each subwoofer pair for interaction and FR, but then again I would not have gone that all large route anyhow. Too many potential bass interaction problems (as I have confirmed via testing in the past).

We have tried the original DVD those demos were made from (as I have a copy of all of them). Same result. Although (demo or orig) "Giant Robots Attack" from Sky Captain And The World Of Tomorrow, does have more bass in the speakers than most, it is still nothing compared to the bass from the LFE.

Darren

He has a dedicated subwoofer just for LFE!
My error.

Remember this quote from a previous posting?

"I have a demo DVD that me friend and I made that has many scenes with great bass used for adjusting our setups. I have played many of the scenes and found this "problem" to exist in every one. It's as though "most" of the bass energy is in the LFE only. I was under the impression that the LFE was for supplement only."
Yes. That only SUPPORTS the idea that there IS something wrong with his system/setup. If EVERYTHING he throws at it sounds identically anemic, it isn't the source material, it's his system/setup.

Another point to consider is why BM was introduced in the first place - so that you can actually here all of the low bass.
BM was introduced for setups that didn't really have LARGE speakers capable of reaching down to the Dolby-specified 20Hz.

There is a reason why AVRs have a SMALL speaker setting; it's to divert the low-end bass, which IS there, from the non-LFE channels to the more-capable subwoofer.

There is a reason why, when people ask here (and this question is asked often) if their speakers are LARGE or not, that they are told that if they don't reach down really low, close to 20Hz, then their speakers should be set to SMALL.

But, as has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, Dolby's recommended system is full-range (capable of 20Hz) main speakers with a dedicated LFE sub. This is how engineers mix the soundtracks. BM, particularly the SMALL speaker setting, is a conciliatory mechanism that allows the usual HT systems, which very rarely incorporate truly full-range speakers for the non-LFE channels, to reproduce the low-end bass that IS normally present in the non-LFE channels.

It can't be any clearer. The whole reason for the existence of BM, in the first place, confirms it. THERE IS SIGNIFICANT LOW-END ENERGY IN THE NON-LFE CHANNELS.

Clearly (to me, at least), there is something wrong with Darren's system/setup.

............................. but then again I would not have gone that all large route anyhow. Too many potential bass interaction problems (as I have confirmed via testing in the past).
But the "all-LARGE route" with a dedicated LFE subwoofer is exactly what is recommended by Dolby. Anything less is a compromise, be it because the room isn't really large enough (the potential bass interaction problems you describe) for truly all-LARGE speakers and a dedicated LFE sub, or be it because the speakers aren't really LARGE.

There are plenty of people who have huge, dedicated HT rooms who DO use the all-LARGE setup with a dedicated LFE sub. Perhaps we should get the opinions of some of the folks from the "Home Entertainment and Theater Builder" section of the forums to comment. Does anyone here frequent that forum who would know some of the "regulars" who might be willing to weigh-in on this?

Although (demo or orig) "Giant Robots Attack" from Sky Captain And The World Of Tomorrow, does have more bass in the speakers than most, it is still nothing compared to the bass from the LFE.

Well, the LFE channel IS reserved for really low-end effects, so it's no surprise, really, that the LARGE non-LFE channels don't compare.

(See, I'm willing to come at this from both sides. I think that either there IS something wrong with your system/setup OR that you are expecting too much from your LARGE non-LFE channels. Without actually hearing what you are describing, it's hard to make an assessment. But I'm still leaning toward there being something wrong with your system/setup.)

(See, I'm willing to come at this from both sides. I think that either there IS something wrong with your system/setup OR that you are expecting too much from your LARGE non-LFE channels. Without actually hearing what you are describing, it's hard to make an assessment. But I'm still leaning toward there being something wrong with your system/setup.)Good point. Perhaps the OP should get hold of a test disc which will give sweeps or pitched bursts in each channel to see what he is really getting on a frequency basis. IIRC, the GoldLine 5.1 ToolKit DVD has the necessary signals: http://www.gold-line.com/51atdvd.htm

Good point. Perhaps the OP should get hold of a test disc which will give sweeps or pitched bursts in each channel to see what he is really getting on a frequency basis. IIRC, the GoldLine 5.1 ToolKit DVD has the necessary signals: http://www.gold-line.com/51atdvd.htm

No offense, but I have posted several times here that I have

conducted detailed room analysis using Room Eq Wizard etc.
2 channel music is perfect.

Frequency checking wouldn't explain anything. As the source here is the DVD soundtrack. The individual speakers have a nice response to bass down below 20hz.

The best thing here is to assume that I have extensive knowledge of Acoustics and Audio equipment and use. Basically, that I am not new to this.

The difference in using the LFE or not is not as "subtle" as it should be. The LFE should really only "enhance" the soundtrack. Seems that it "controls" the bass instead.

Either, my processor is broke. Unlikely as I/we have tried several with the same results.
or...
Very few of DVD soundtracks are mixed the way that Dolby intended.

Thus, dont spend ungodly amounts of money on subs or true full range speakers for all of the channels, as it will not matter in the end.

Most of the posts on this thread are based on theory. What I have been looking for all along is a practical test of this by someone with a similar setup.

I find it odd that almost no-one (i have searched elswhere) uses a setup like what Dolby intended.

Thank you

Darren

No offense, but I have posted several times here that I have

conducted detailed room analysis using Room Eq Wizard etc.
2 channel music is perfect.

Frequency checking wouldn't explain anything. As the source here is the DVD soundtrack.


Not doubting your knowledge and setup, but I'm still in the camp something isn't set up right, or at least maybe it is a combination of this and expecting too much LFE. That's the biggest problem here I think is people's perceptions are different. Anyway to get some plots with LFE on and off and compare levels?

You mentioned using EQ wizard and 2-channel music. Did you use EQ wizard for the LFE sub as well? Is that location optimized, EQed and level set correctly? What about cancellation issues going on because of all the subs?

The difference in using the LFE or not is not as "subtle" as it should be. The LFE should really only "enhance" the soundtrack. Seems that it "controls" the bass instead.

Either, my processor is broke. Unlikely as I/we have tried several with the same results.
or...
Very few of DVD soundtracks are mixed the way that Dolby intended.

Thus, dont spend ungodly amounts of money on subs or true full range speakers for all of the channels, as it will not matter in the end.

Most of the posts on this thread are based on theory. What I have been looking for all along is a practical test of this by someone with a similar setup.

I find it odd that almost no-one (i have searched elswhere) uses a setup like what Dolby intended.

Thank you

Darren


Dolby intended that their system be compatible with all sorts of playback equipment. Let's skip the Dolby part, and move on the what the sound mixers are doing.


http://www.grammy.com/PDFs/Recording_Academy/Producers_And_Engineers/5_1_Rec.pdf


3.4 Bass Management

"The term bass management refers to the redirection of low frequencies from the main channels to the subwoofer, so that it reproduces all the low frequencies in a surround mix, including the dedicated ".1" LFE channel (see section 1.3). Because most consumer home theater systems use satellite speakers instead of full range speakers, their amplifiers almost inevitably employ crossover networks for this purpose. Therefore, surround mixes should always be checked on a bass-managed satellite speaker system."

"Creating a surround sound mix without bass management is sometimes referred to as mixing "direct to sub." Bass management is not required for full range speakers and may in fact significantly change the overall sound when switched in, so it is an option that may be employed during surround mixing at the
discretion of the engineer."

"However, it is worth noting that many studio monitors, including some termed “full range,” are not flat to the bottom octaves and will not reproduce sounds heard through bass-managed home systems. Bass management therefore allows the detection of unwanted low frequency information such as rumble which may otherwise be inaudible in the studio — but which the consumer may well hear in his or her home theater environment! It also allows the surround mixer to check the interaction between the LFE channel and redirected low frequencies from the main channels. Potential phase cancellation or phase smearing problems in the consumer system can thus be avoided."




It would seem that some sound mixing is done with large main speakers, but large is defined as a 40 Hz low end. That is hardly equal to your setup.

It would seem that everything depends on the specific movie or music track in question on how low the bass goes on the main channels.

Volume wise, the LFE channel has up to an extra 10 dB of volume as compared with the main channels. So, it seems that nothing is garanteed to be recorded on any channel in particular. Artistic choice is involved here.

Anyhow, I tested subwoofers on the large channels years ago. It seemed like it was a waste of resources (same as you have found) so I just moved everything around a bit and used BM.

Not doubting your knowledge and setup, but I'm still in the camp something isn't set up right, or at least maybe it is a combination of this and expecting too much LFE. That's the biggest problem here I think is people's perceptions are different. Anyway to get some plots with LFE on and off and compare levels?

You mentioned using EQ wizard and 2-channel music. Did you use EQ wizard for the LFE sub as well? Is that location optimized, EQed and level set correctly? What about cancellation issues going on because of all the subs?



Darren has no problem with the LFE channel.

He thinks that more loud and/or deep bass should be heard on the 5 main channels. He has subwoofers all around (5 channels worth), plus a dedicated LFE subwoofer.

I think it is just the mix on the DVD's in question!

Darren has no problem with the LFE channel.

He thinks that more loud and/or deep bass should be heard on the 5 main channels. He has subwoofers all around (5 channels worth), plus a dedicated LFE subwoofer.

I think it is just the mix on the DVD's in question!

Right, but what if the LFE sub does not have phase, time delay, distance, level, etc set properly. Could it be causing cancellation issues? Or maybe it has large peaks drowning out the bass from the other channels.

...What I have been looking for all along is a practical test of this by someone with a similar setup...

Darren... admittedly I have not read every posting in this thread... also my setup is no where near yours in price or capabilities... however, I do run all my speakers as LARGE with the exception of the center channel, which is actually good down to 38Hz in-room FR (REW). My mains are capable of in-room FR down to 25Hz before rolling off according to REW. My side surrounds are good to 33Hz and my rear surrounds down to 28Hz. My sub goes to 20Hz before beginning to roll-off. My HT is acoustically treated for all frequencies and speakers are ideally located (as well as seating positions) to a point where I'm sorta proud of the imaging and flatness of FR characteristics in the theater. I have a massive DVD collection. I use a HTPC to feed my Yamaha HTR-5890 a SP/DIF signal. I'm no pro and neither is my set-up but I'm willing to try and help you out here. What is it you would like to know or have me do?

Frequency checking wouldn't explain anything. As the source here is the DVD soundtrack. The individual speakers have a nice response to bass down below 20hz.
Using some sort of "test disc" or tones should confirm that your processor is, indeed, working properly and, in this case, not re-routing ANY bass.

He has all his speakers set to LARGE, so he's not using his processor's digital crossover capability.

As far as his LARGE channel's subs are concerned, I'm not really sure how he has their external crossovers set. From reading his sub's manual, it seems he runs his speakers full-range and probably has his subs crossed in at an appropriate frequency.
One thing that has not been mentioned, or defined, is what is "Large" as read in frequency?
Large doesn't necessarily mean down to 20~15htz. Its most likely only down to 40~35 htz.
On my H/K635, if I set the mains to "large" and sub to "on" the crossover from the large speakers to the sub(s) is automatic @ 40 htz. So then the subs are only receiving sound from 40~15 htz from the main speakers.
From what I've read in this thread, I think that is what is happening to Darren Wadsworth's system

Dolby intended that their system be compatible with all sorts of playback equipment. Let's skip the Dolby part, and move on the what the sound mixers are doing.


http://www.grammy.com/PDFs/Recording_Academy/Producers_And_Engineers/5_1_Rec.pdf


3.4 Bass Management

"The term bass management refers to the redirection of low frequencies from the main channels to the subwoofer, so that it reproduces all the low frequencies in a surround mix, including the dedicated ".1" LFE channel (see section 1.3). Because most consumer home theater systems use satellite speakers instead of full range speakers, their amplifiers almost inevitably employ crossover networks for this purpose. Therefore, surround mixes should always be checked on a bass-managed satellite speaker system."

"Creating a surround sound mix without bass management is sometimes referred to as mixing "direct to sub." Bass management is not required for full range speakers and may in fact significantly change the overall sound when switched in, so it is an option that may be employed during surround mixing at the
discretion of the engineer."

"However, it is worth noting that many studio monitors, including some termed “full range,” are not flat to the bottom octaves and will not reproduce sounds heard through bass-managed home systems. Bass management therefore allows the detection of unwanted low frequency information such as rumble which may otherwise be inaudible in the studio — but which the consumer may well hear in his or her home theater environment! It also allows the surround mixer to check the interaction between the LFE channel and redirected low frequencies from the main channels. Potential phase cancellation or phase smearing problems in the consumer system can thus be avoided."
Nice cherry-pick, but...................

3.2.1 Full Range vs. Satellite

"For the purposes of this document, "full range" speakers are defined as those
which are capable of reproducing frequencies of at least 18kHz or higher at the
high end, and 40Hz or lower at the low end. Surround mixing should always be
done on identical full range speakers of the same brand and model, plus a
subwoofer."

""Satellite" speakers are typically found in consumer home theater systems. They
are much smaller in size than full range speakers, and have a very limited low
end response, relying instead on a subwoofer to deliver bass frequencies.
Surround mixes should be checked on a satellite speaker system, preferably one
that emulates a typical consumer home theater environment. (See section 2.3)"

So, surround mixing should be done with "full-range" speakers and a dedicated LFE sub, but should also be checked using a bass-managed system.

Very nice link, btw, Cass. (Note that there is no mention of a bass-management scheme identical to the one you insist your system employs. :p :D Please, no response is necessary. Just "ribbin'" ya. ;) )

Right, but what if the LFE sub does not have phase, time delay, distance, level, etc set properly. Could it be causing cancellation issues? Or maybe it has large peaks drowning out the bass from the other channels.But he turns off, unplugs, or disconnects his LFE sub while leaving his processor set up as if it does have an LFE sub, in order to ascertain that his LARGE main channels do not seem to be producing enough bass.

What is it you would like to know or have me do?
See what your LARGE speakers' bass output is like with several of the "usual suspect" DVDs if you simply turn off, disconnect, or unplug you subwoofer while leaving your processor set up as having a sub.

I suspect that you should already be able to tell us, without even doing that, that yes, there IS significant low-end energy in your LARGE non-LFE (in your case, your fronts and surrounds) channels.

It's actually simple enough for every one of us to set up our processors as having LARGE speakers in order to demonstrate that the LARGE channels do, indeed, have significant bass in them.

But he turns off, unplugs, or disconnects his LFE sub while leaving his processor set up as if it does have an LFE sub, in order to ascertain that his LARGE main channels do not seem to be producing enough bass.
There is a big difference between 40htz and 18htz, so if the "large" speakers are only playing down to 40htz and he is used to hearing sounds to around 20htz then there it is.

One thing that has not been mentioned, or defined, is what is "Large" as read in frequency?
Large doesn't necessarily mean down to 20~15htz. Its most likely only down to 40~35 htz.
On my H/K635, if I set the mains to "large" and sub to "on" the crossover from the large speakers to the sub(s) is automatic @ 40 htz. So then the subs are only receiving sound from 40~15 htz from the main speakers.
From what I've read in this thread, I think that is what is happening to Darren Wadsworth's system
There is a big difference between 40htz and 18htz, so if the "large" speakers are only playing down to 40htz and he is used to hearing sounds to around 20htz then there it is.

Actually, Darren has subwoofers connected to each of his LARGE channels that ARE capable of sub-20Hz performance, which makes his observation that he has no bass in his LARGE main channels all the more puzzling.

It is VERY odd that your receiver still re-routes bass from channels set to LARGE. This is not at all proper. Channels set to LARGE should receive a "full-range" signal. This is one of the basic tenets of proper bass management. Are you certain that your receiver re-routes bass from channels that are set to LARGE? Unfortunately H/K does not have a manual for your receiver available on their website. Do you, perhaps, have a link to a manual for your receiver?

I don't for one minute believe that Darren's processor re-routes bass from his LARGE channels in the manner you describe, however, I agree that it WOULD explain his observations if it did.

(The "18" you're quoting is 18kHz, btw, not 18Hz.)

Actually, Darren has subwoofers connected to each of his LARGE channels that ARE capable of sub-20Hz performance, which makes his observation that he has no bass in his LARGE main channels all the more puzzling.

It is VERY odd that your receiver still re-routes bass from channels set to LARGE. This is not proper. LARGE channels should receive a "full-range" signal. Are you certain this is correct?

I don't for one minute believe that Darren's processor re-routes bass from his LARGE channels in the manner you describe, however, I agree that it WOULD explain his observations if it did.

Being capable of playing 20htz and RECEIVING 20htz from the pre/pro or receiver are two different things.
It makes no difference if a person uses FULL RANGE speakers or uses ANY speakers w/subs, as long as the speakers and subs are connected properly. If a sub ONLY receives 40htz, then that is only what it is going to output.
Before there were subs, and I have one of the first produced, in '77, most speakers probably did not go to below 30 htz, if they went that low.
Then again, having too many subs, in the wrong locations, for a particular room, could be causing cancellation problems.

Being capable of playing 20htz and RECEIVING 20htz from the pre/pro or receiver are two different things.
It makes no difference if a person uses FULL RANGE speakers or uses ANY speakers w/subs, as long as the speakers and subs are connected properly. If a sub ONLY receives 40htz, then that is only what it is going to output.I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make. Darren's LARGE channels are capable of reprodution down to at least 20Hz. It has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread that Dolby requires full-range speakers to, by definition, be capable of performance down to 20Hz and that the full-range channels can be mixed to contain bass content down to this low of a level. Yes, whether a sound engineer chooses to utilize the full low-end capabilities of the full-range channels when he is mixing is completely up to his discretion, but I can assure you that many do.

Except for what you claim your receiver does with bass from channels set to LARGE, I do not understand where you are getting this "40Hz" figure that you keep quoting. There is no 40Hz limit on the low-end of what the mix for LARGE channels can contain. I can all but guarantee that Darren's processor does NOT behave in the same fashion as you describe for your receiver (that is, re-routes bass from channels set to LARGE). His LARGE channels DO receive a full-range signal and, according to Dolby specifications, those LARGE channels CAN contain bass down to 20Hz, an octave below 40Hz.



(btw, 4DHD, I edited my post above to say:

"Are you certain that your receiver re-routes bass from channels that are set to LARGE? Unfortunately H/K does not have a manual for your receiver available on their website. Do you, perhaps, have a link to a manual for your receiver?")

There is a big difference between 40htz and 18htz, so if the "large" speakers are only playing down to 40htz and he is used to hearing sounds to around 20htz then there it is.

You got the numbers mixed up, 40hz on the low end, 18khz (not htz) on the highend.

It is VERY odd that your receiver still re-routes bass from channels set to LARGE. This is not at all proper. Channels set to LARGE should receive a "full-range" signal.

I question this as well. Here is a link the manual I found.

manual (http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Owner%27s%20Manual/AVR%20635%20OM%20w_o%20crop.pdf)

It appears as though the crossover setting is still available when setting fronts to large, but seems a bit confusing and never really says what is going on.

You got the numbers mixed up, 40hz on the low end, 18khz (not htz) on the highend.
No I don't, 18htz is just that, not 18Khtz. I meant 18htz as what might be played by a sub.

I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make. Darren's LARGE channels are capable of reprodution down to at least 20Hz. It has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread that Dolby requires full-range speakers to, by definition, be capable of performance down to 20Hz and that the full-range channels can be mixed to contain bass content down to this low of a level. Yes, whether a sound engineer chooses to utilize the full low-end capabilities of the full-range channels when he is mixing is completely up to his discretion, but I can assure you that many do.
I'm not saying that is what is happening, only it MIGHT be.
But as to the 40~35htz range, I've seen specs over the years for what were called 'full range speakers' and their bottom end dropped off at around 35htz. And don't ask me what speakers they were, I don't remember, after all these years.

Again maybe its something to do with the processor being screwy. Pre/pros are computers and we all know how screwy they can get, from time to time.

No I don't, 18htz is just that, not 18Khtz. I meant 18htz as what might be played by a sub.



Sorry, just seemed odd that you mentioned 18hz when it wasn't mentioned elsewhere other than 18khz in an earlier post.

Sorry, just seemed odd that you mentioned 18hz when it wasn't mentioned elsewhere other than 18khz in an earlier post.

I picked 18htz as not to imply that subs don't go below 20htz.

As for the H/K635, I just set all speakers to "large" and re-ran the EZSet/EQ and then went into the crossover screen and the auto set changed all the crossovers from 60 and 80 htz to all 40htz.
When I changed the speaker settings to large, it set the sub setting to "sub L/R+LFE

I picked 18htz as not to imply that subs don't go below 20htz.

As for the H/K635, I just set all speakers to "large" and re-ran the EZSet/EQ and then went into the crossover screen and the auto set changed all the crossovers from 60 and 80 htz to all 40htz.
When I changed the speaker settings to large, it set the sub setting to "sub L/R+LFE

The question is, are those crossovers actually being used. Other than the fronts in states that a full range signal goes to the speaker and nothing to the sub. So even though the setup says 40hz I don't think there is a crossover in use.

The question is, are those crossovers actually being used. Other than the fronts in states that a full range signal goes to the speaker and nothing to the sub. So even though the setup says 40hz I don't think there is a crossover in use.
At one time I had 5 subs in that system, the three that were acting as a fourth driver to the speakers they were connected to weren't playing as low as the two that were the real subs.

See what your LARGE speakers' bass output is like with several of the "usual suspect" DVDs if you simply turn off, disconnect, or unplug you subwoofer while leaving your processor set up as having a sub...
My wife has just gone to bed so I can't really crank it up too much but so far I tried Two Towers... compared several scenes back-to-back... first sub 'off' then sub 'on'.

There is definitely deep bass present through the other speakers with the Sub powered down... but its not the same quality of bass at all. With the Sub "on" the bass rumbles, vibrates, and is in general quite a bit more pronounced (husky sounding). So is this what Darren is referring to? I don't know. Is this merely a by-product of my system because my speakers can't reach as low as my sub or play the really low freqs as loudly? Again I don't know. I'm now going off to bed but tomorrow I will try again with U-571, Blackhawk Down, Finding Nemo, more Lord of the Rings, War of the Worlds, etc. And Darren when you post back I'll take requests (if I've got the DVD on-hand) of specific passages.

Has anyone else actually tried this??? Or is everybody just guessing at the outcome???

As for the H/K635, I just set all speakers to "large" and re-ran the EZSet/EQ and then went into the crossover screen and the auto set changed all the crossovers from 60 and 80 htz to all 40htz.
When I changed the speaker settings to large, it set the sub setting to "sub L/R+LFE



I think that you are correct. L & R bass is sent to the subwoofer below that 40Hz crossover setting in that mode. The question is, is a 40Hz HP filter in the R & L main circuit in that mode.

I have read about some testing that was done on this issue, but I don't recall the brand. I think that someone did some sweeps, and there was a 40 Hz HP filter in the R & L circuit even though the speakers were set to large and the subwoofer was set to ON.

None of these BM tweaks are documented very well. However, Darren indicated that he has tried multiple receivers. Hope they were not all the same brand. The same brand tends to stick with the same BM methods for years on end.

Nice cherry-pick, but...................

3.2.1 Full Range vs. Satellite

"For the purposes of this document, "full range" speakers are defined as those
which are capable of reproducing frequencies of at least 18kHz or higher at the
high end, and 40Hz or lower at the low end. Surround mixing should always be
done on identical full range speakers of the same brand and model, plus a
subwoofer."





Yup, that would be my main speakers. 40Hz low end roll off (as measured in room). Darren has real deep "full range" all around, but is that simply a waste of resources?

With Darren's setup, I would be tempted to remove the LFE subwoofer (Subwoofer set to OFF). Then I would leave everything else set to large, and would find out which large speaker channels are sent the LFE signal. The LFE could be sent to anywhere from 2 to 5 channels (only R & L is my guess)!







Very nice link, btw, Cass. (Note that there is no mention of a bass-management scheme identical to the one you insist your system employs. :p :D Please, no response is necessary. Just "ribbin'" ya. ;) )


NHT has spun that particular BM setting in a different direction. If you set the R & L mains to large, set all other speakers to small, and use a subwoofer, then redirected bass is sent only to the R & L mains. LFE only is sent to the subwoofer.

That makes three different BM bass redirection/LFE schemes that I know of for that specific speaker setup (not including the various "PLUS" settings).

I am not so sure what that HK BM scheme mentioned above does either, but there is something there that is not obvious!

Speaking of my receiver's BM, read the subwoofer calibration methods used in the link above. In the large R &L mains, small other, subwoofer ON BM setting mode, my receiver sends the "subwoofer" test tones to the subwoofer simultaneously with the R & L mains channels. That subwoofer specific calibration method is mentioned in that link.

No offense, but I have posted several times here that I have .........................None intended and none taken. However, the advantage of the GoldLine DVD is that it is, in fact, Dolby 5.1 and will (or should) better reveal whatever processing your system is doing.

Also, fwiw, some sothers of us do use 5 full range speakers with a sub.

Dolby intended that their system be compatible with all sorts of playback equipment. Let's skip the Dolby part, and move on the what the sound mixers are doing.


http://www.grammy.com/PDFs/Recording_Academy/Producers_And_Engineers/5_1_Rec.pdf


3.4 Bass Management

"The term bass management refers to the redirection of low frequencies from the main channels to the subwoofer, so that it reproduces all the low frequencies in a surround mix, including the dedicated ".1" LFE channel (see section 1.3). Because most consumer home theater systems use satellite speakers instead of full range speakers, their amplifiers almost inevitably employ crossover networks for this purpose. Therefore, surround mixes should always be checked on a bass-managed satellite speaker system."

"Creating a surround sound mix without bass management is sometimes referred to as mixing "direct to sub." Bass management is not required for full range speakers and may in fact significantly change the overall sound when switched in, so it is an option that may be employed during surround mixing at the
discretion of the engineer."

"However, it is worth noting that many studio monitors, including some termed “full range,” are not flat to the bottom octaves and will not reproduce sounds heard through bass-managed home systems. Bass management therefore allows the detection of unwanted low frequency information such as rumble which may otherwise be inaudible in the studio — but which the consumer may well hear in his or her home theater environment! It also allows the surround mixer to check the interaction between the LFE channel and redirected low frequencies from the main channels. Potential phase cancellation or phase smearing problems in the consumer system can thus be avoided."




It would seem that some sound mixing is done with large main speakers, but large is defined as a 40 Hz low end. That is hardly equal to your setup.

It would seem that everything depends on the specific movie or music track in question on how low the bass goes on the main channels.

Volume wise, the LFE channel has up to an extra 10 dB of volume as compared with the main channels. So, it seems that nothing is garanteed to be recorded on any channel in particular. Artistic choice is involved here.

Anyhow, I tested subwoofers on the large channels years ago. It seemed like it was a waste of resources (same as you have found) so I just moved everything around a bit and used BM.

Fortunately for me, the main subs that I have (vandersteen) are there for 2 channle play. I actually use my room for more music listening than theater. Unfortunately for my friend, he is the other way around. We are going to be playing with his setup next WE to see what we can do.

Thank you for the info
I agree with you on the mixes

Darren

Not doubting your knowledge and setup, but I'm still in the camp something isn't set up right, or at least maybe it is a combination of this and expecting too much LFE. That's the biggest problem here I think is people's perceptions are different. Anyway to get some plots with LFE on and off and compare levels?

You mentioned using EQ wizard and 2-channel music. Did you use EQ wizard for the LFE sub as well? Is that location optimized, EQed and level set correctly? What about cancellation issues going on because of all the subs?

Yes, absolutely. It is the in best position for the LFE sub that is practical

No cancellation issues. As the problem only rears its ugly head when the LFE sub is powered off. but the processor is set to LFE=Yes

Since most of the sound in Dolby sound tracks comes from the front 3, and I know that 2 channel music is perfect, this is not the issue

Darren

Darren... admittedly I have not read every posting in this thread... also my setup is no where near yours in price or capabilities... however, I do run all my speakers as LARGE with the exception of the center channel, which is actually good down to 38Hz in-room FR (REW). My mains are capable of in-room FR down to 25Hz before rolling off according to REW. My side surrounds are good to 33Hz and my rear surrounds down to 28Hz. My sub goes to 20Hz before beginning to roll-off. My HT is acoustically treated for all frequencies and speakers are ideally located (as well as seating positions) to a point where I'm sorta proud of the imaging and flatness of FR characteristics in the theater. I have a massive DVD collection. I use a HTPC to feed my Yamaha HTR-5890 a SP/DIF signal. I'm no pro and neither is my set-up but I'm willing to try and help you out here. What is it you would like to know or have me do?


Please help. I would appreciate it. Generally, set up all of your speakers to LARGE, set your receiver's LFE (or sub) to "yes" or "on". The power off your LFE sub.

If you have: play AOTC "Return to Coruscant" scene where the Amadala's ship files over head, lands on the platform and then explodes.

Or War Of The Worlds (2005), 7. Escape, right after Tom Cruise gets in the van. The explosions of the bridge and finally the gas truck exploding.

Any other bass scenes you can think of also.


Then, power the LFE sub back on. Determine how much of a difference there is between the two settings. I am finding that there is very little bass from the mains with the LFE powered off. When there should be significant bass from the mains and the LFE should merely enhance that. But, the LFE takes over and produces most of the bass energy.

Your help in the matter will be greatly appreciated.

Darren

As for the H/K635, I just set all speakers to "large" and re-ran the EZSet/EQ and then went into the crossover screen and the auto set changed all the crossovers from 60 and 80 htz to all 40htz.
When I changed the speaker settings to large, it set the sub setting to "sub L/R+LFE
The question is, are those crossovers actually being used. Other than the fronts in states that a full range signal goes to the speaker and nothing to the sub. So even though the setup says 40hz I don't think there is a crossover in use.
What this means is that his speakers are being run as LARGE, which is full-range. But, with the "L/R+LFE" setting, his sub is being sent, in addition to the LFE channel, duplicate sub-40Hz bass info from the front channels.

What speakers and sub do you have, 4DHD?

Has anyone else actually tried this???I set all my speakers to LARGE (I usually run them all SMALL), left my receiver set up as if it had a sub, turned off my sub, and played several scenes from the usual DVDs and my assessment was that there WAS significant bass in the LARGE, non-LFE channels. Of course, it wasn't as pronounced as when the sub was left on, but it was there.

One thing that I think is worth pointing out is that very rarely is the info in the LFE channel totally discreet. Usually the LFE channel is used to augment effects that a capable sound engineer would have also mixed into the non-LFE channels.

The question is, is a 40Hz HP filter in the R & L main circuit in that mode.

I have read about some testing that was done on this issue, but I don't recall the brand. I think that someone did some sweeps, and there was a 40 Hz HP filter in the R & L circuit even though the speakers were set to large and the subwoofer was set to ON.
Nope. Speakers set to LARGE receive a full-range signal. As you surmised, with the "L/R+LFE" setting, the "40Hz" is telling his receiver to duplicate the sub-40Hz bass from his front channels at his sub.

If a 40Hz HP filter was being applied to his fronts in that mode, then it would simply be the exact same as a SMALL setting with a 40Hz crossover. :)

Also, fwiw, some sothers of us do use 5 full range speakers with a sub.
So, Kal, can you please confirm that there IS (or isn't) plenty of low-end info in the non-LFE channels when you run 5 full-range speakers with a dedicated LFE sub?

If you have: play AOTC "Return to Coruscant" scene where the Amadala's ship files over head, lands on the platform and then explodes.
I think THAT scene is probably OK, but be aware that there is some known "quirky" stuff going on with both the LFE and the non-LFE bass in AOTC. There are several moments where you'd expect more bass and it's just not there.

Darren,

Have you checked the setup on your DVD player to see if it also has bass management? I know that my Oppo 970 has its own bass management settings that could cause the bass to be off on DVDs, but ok from your satellite/cable box (which you say it does from music choice). If you watch a dolby 5.1 movie on TV, do you hear more bass from the fronts and surrounds?

I have a Def Tech system with built in powered subs for each speaker, and also an SVS PB-12NSD for LFE, and I've tried it with both large and small (with 40-50Hz crossover), and I like the latter better. I still get lots of bass either way, but it seems a bit muddy with large all around.

-- Martin

Have you checked the setup on your DVD player to see if it also has bass management?I think his source is a HTPC and he's using a digital connection, so only his processors bass management settings come into play.




I know that my Oppo 970 has its own bass management settings that could cause the bass to be off on DVDs, ....................Your Oppo's bass management settings are ONLY applied to it's multichannel analog outputs, not it's digital output.




I have a Def Tech system with built in powered subs for each speaker, and also an SVS PB-12NSD for LFE, and I've tried it with both large and small (with 40-50Hz crossover), and I like the latter better. I still get lots of bass either way, but it seems a bit muddy with large all around.Whether his setup and settings, with all those subs, is ideal, is certainly arguable. But it doesn't explain his observation that when he turns "off" his LFE sub, he gets very weak bass in his LARGE non-LFE channels.

So, Kal, can you please confirm that there IS (or isn't) plenty of low-end info in the non-LFE channels when you run 5 full-range speakers with a dedicated LFE sub?Yes but mostly from music discs as I do not have much video in that system. Nonetheless, I have played a number of DD/DTS 5.1 organ DVDs on it with excellent results, with or without the sub.

Yup, organ music may be coming back into style. Seems to be very popular demo material fro demanding "audiophiles". Mention subwoofer capabilities, and organ music always comes up.


http://www.bendermelodies.com/music/org_track8.mp3


WARNING: This track may damage your equipment due to the high dynamic range and low bass extension! :D

What this means is that his speakers are being run as LARGE, which is full-range. But, with the "L/R+LFE" setting, his sub is being sent, in addition to the LFE channel, duplicate sub-40Hz bass info from the front channels.

What speakers and sub do you have, 4DHD?
The speakers I'm using now aren't the same ones when I had 5 subs connected.
The first set were 30 year old JBL L212 w/B212 subs. The subs and towers were connected via speaker wire, as they were designed. So all three front speaker/sub sets were set to "large". The 15" subs were connected to the "sub out" of the reciever.
Currently, I'm using the incarnation of the L212s, the PT800s, But JBL sez to only crossover the PT800s @ 80htz, so they are set to "small".
I'd still be using the L212 setup for HT, if I hadn't fell into a steal of a deal on 5 PT800s. So the 7 L212s are broken up into 3 different systems, including a stereo sat/dual sub system.

Yes but mostly from music discs as I do not have much video in that system. Nonetheless, I have played a number of DD/DTS 5.1 organ DVDs on it with excellent results, with or without the sub.


That was going to be my next suggestion... that he try a DVD-A or some other multichannel music disc, where one might hope low bass had been mixed into the non_LFE channels.

That was going to be my next suggestion... that he try a DVD-A or some other multichannel music disc, where one might hope low bass had been mixed into the non_LFE channels.He says his 2-channel music's bass sounds great. His "LFE sub" isn't used when he listens to 2-channel music, so his R+L channel bass would appear to be good in this instance.

He says his 2-channel music's bass sounds great. His "LFE sub" isn't used when he listens to 2-channel music, so his R+L channel bass would appear to be good in this instance.
I think its the processor not working properly when its set for surround sound. Yes, I know about how DD, DTS is SUPPOSED to work, but that doesn't mean that the pre/pro is doing BM right.
The fact that there is plenty of bass, when in stereo, would show that the full range speakers aren't rolling off excessively, like being down 6~12db @ 25htz or somewhere in that range.
But then I think he said it did the same thing with other receivers. So that again goes back to what I said earlier about the BM setting the crossover @ 40htz from the mains to the subs. To my way of thinking, that's the only thing that seems to make any sense of all this. Even tho that is not suppose to happen, and that is exactly what my H/K635 does, or at least what it shows in the setup screen.
At any given point in time all receivers and/or pre/pros probably use the same chips and the way they were designed to work may not be the way they do.

Even tho that is not suppose to happen, and that is exactly what my H/K635 does, or at least what it shows in the setup screen.Based upon what you said, your auto-setup sets your speakers to LARGE but sets the sub to "L/R+LFE" and sets your crossover to 40Hz. This means your LARGE speakers ARE receiving a full-range signal. With the "L/R+LFE" setting, your sub, in addition to receiving the LFE, also receives duplicate bass from your front channels. The 40Hz crossover specifies what frequencies are duplicated from your LARGE front channels at the sub with that setting. Read your manual.

What's weird is that the auto-setup sets your system up this way, with the "L/R+LFE" setting. That's why I asked what speakers and sub you currently run.

Based upon what you said, your auto-setup sets your speakers to LARGE but sets the sub to "L/R+LFE" and sets your crossover to 40Hz. This means your LARGE speakers ARE receiving a full-range signal. With the "L/R+LFE" setting, your sub, in addition to receiving the LFE, also receives duplicate bass from your front channels. The 40Hz crossover specifies what frequencies are duplicated from your LARGE front channels at the sub with that setting. Read your manual.

What's weird is that the auto-setup sets your system up this way, with the "L/R+LFE" setting. That's why I asked what speakers and sub you currently run.
I would not make any difference what speakers I was using, as long as they are capable of full range. I don't run them large now, because I'm not using the three 12" subs to make them full range. Just the two 15" subs connected to the receiver's subout.
I just looked at the manual, first time in ages, and saw where it said the sub kicks in below the selected XO, which it set to 40, automatically. But that was only after I set the mains to large in the manual setup.

But we still haven't come up with an answer to Darren's system not doing the same thing.

Please help. I would appreciate it. Generally, set up all of your speakers to LARGE, set your receiver's LFE (or sub) to "yes" or "on". The power off your LFE sub.

If you have: play AOTC "Return to Coruscant" scene where the Amadala's ship files over head, lands on the platform and then explodes.

Or War Of The Worlds (2005), 7. Escape, right after Tom Cruise gets in the van. The explosions of the bridge and finally the gas truck exploding.

Any other bass scenes you can think of also.


Then, power the LFE sub back on. Determine how much of a difference there is between the two settings. I am finding that there is very little bass from the mains with the LFE powered off. When there should be significant bass from the mains and the LFE should merely enhance that. But, the LFE takes over and produces most of the bass energy.

Your help in the matter will be greatly appreciated.

Darren
Hey Darren... so sorry it took so long to get back to you but to my credit, I do lead a very full life ;)

I was surprised I didn't have Attack Of The Clones in my DVD collection (once you get over 1200 DVDs in a collection you kinda begin losing track of exactly what's in the collection anymore... actually I started losing track back around ~300 or so...)

Anyway I did have War Of The Worlds and checked the scene in Chapter 7 you mentioned... I played it back-to-back several times and I gotta tell ya... all the bass is there in the mains. Oh, not as earth-shattering and bone-jarring with the sub off but it's all there as far as I can tell. I assume the lowest rumbles do not move my furniture because my mains are not quite as capable as my sub. So I guessing something is definitely not right about your set-up.

If you have any others you'd like me to check out on my system just post them here and this next time I won't take quite so long. I kinda wished others on this forum would have tried this simple, easy request and reported their results back too but I'm not really surprised... as I have ask at times before for others to try a simple demo on their own systems to prove something to themselves. To date, not a single person has ever tried anything I've suggested... they'd rather just continue arguing some theoretical esotertic nonsense than actually try a simple demo of proof. So I felt your frustration as I read this thread...

Anyway I did have War Of The Worlds and checked the scene in Chapter 7 you mentioned... I played it back-to-back several times and I gotta tell ya... all the bass is there in the mains.Yep




I kinda wished others on this forum would have tried this simple, easy request and reported their results back too but I'm not really surprised... as I have ask at times before for others to try a simple demo on their own systems to prove something to themselves. To date, not a single person has ever tried anything I've suggested... they'd rather just continue arguing some theoretical esotertic nonsense than actually try a simple demo of proof. So I felt your frustration as I read this thread...
I asked people to do it, too. It's simple enough. I tried it with several of the "usual" DVDs and reported back that, yes, there is plenty of bass in the non-LFE channels. Like you said, no one else wanted to try it or just wouldn't "listen" to the results.

And I didn't even really need to try it; I knew the answer, already. As most here should, as well. There is plenty of bass in the non-LFE channels.

Anyway I did have War Of The Worlds and checked the scene in Chapter 7 you mentioned... I played it back-to-back several times and I gotta tell ya... all the bass is there in the mains. Oh, not as earth-shattering and bone-jarring with the sub off but it's all there as far as I can tell. I assume the lowest rumbles do not move my furniture because my mains are not quite as capable as my sub. So I guessing something is definitely not right about your set-up.




No way do I get that result. For my test I left the subwoofer ON, and set the LFE channel to OFF. Redirected small bass still went to the subwoofer.

Peak volume was 8 dB lower at loudest point of Ch 7 tanker scene, and some bass was not there at all.

Go to WOTW chapter 20 @ 1:35:58 stomp in water. 90 dB PEAK with no LFE, and 116 dB with LFE turned ON. No bass at all with LFE OFF. Kind of hard to miss that one.

I still think that is just the way the individual soundtracks are mixed!

Yep





I asked people to do it, too. It's simple enough. I tried it with several of the "usual" DVDs and reported back that, yes, there is plenty of bass in the non-LFE channels. Like you said, no one else wanted to try it or just wouldn't "listen" to the results.

And I didn't even really need to try it; I knew the answer, already. As most here should, as well. There is plenty of bass in the non-LFE channels.



Your definition of plenty is not the same as my definition of plenty.

Some scenes have some bass, and others do not. Master and Commander does have some bass in the non-LFE channel, but there is not plenty of bass. Turn OFF the LFE channel, and there is not that much loud and deep bass in the action scenes.

Sometimes I wonder how much loud and deep bass people get out of the LFE channel on their own systems!

No way do I get that result. For my test I left the subwoofer ON, and set the LFE channel to OFF. Redirected small bass still went to the subwoofer.
Why can't you just simply do the "test" correctly, with your speakers set to LARGE, the processor set up as having a sub, but with the subwoofer turned off or disconnected. Then listen to the results with several different DVDs and report what you hear.

Darren,

I'm wondering if THIS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=876188) post is relevant to the problem you are having since you say you are using an HTPC. Not to insult your intelligence, but are you certain that what is being sent to your processor from your HTPC is an unprocessed digital bitstream and that your processor is truly applying DD5.1/DTS5.1 processing and not some other 2-channel processing mode like Dolby Pro-Logic?

Why can't you just simply do the "test" correctly, with your speakers set to LARGE, the processor set up as having a sub, but with the subwoofer turned off or disconnected. Then listen to the results with several different DVDs and report what you hear.


Could be because my center and surround speakers only have a 60 Hz f-3, and bass below that gets a bit weak no matter what is on a DVD. I am not going to move the subwoofers around again to prove what I already have proven in the past. Dedicated subwoofers located on each and every channel are simply a waste of money, time, and effort (IMO).

By the way, when you turn LFE to OFF with the subwoofer still ON that makes the system's bass capabilities the same as the L, L, L BM setup with SW set to ON and subwoofer powered OFF. Darren only has LFE being sent to his dedicated subwoofer, so in effect all he is doing is turning the LFE signal OFF.

They used to do Dolby Surround mixes (DD Dolby Surround mutant version) in addition to DD mixes on DVD's. The primary difference between the two versions is how they mix the bass (plus LFE for DD and matrix for DS). Days of Thunder is one of the few DVD's in my collection that have both mixes.

Darren,

I'm wondering if THIS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=876188) post is relevant to the problem you are having since you say you are using an HTPC. Not to insult your intelligence, but are you certain that what is being sent to your processor from your HTPC is an unprocessed digital bitstream and that your processor is truly applying DD5.1/DTS5.1 processing and not some other 2-channel processing mode like Dolby Pro-Logic?


He said that he get's plenty of bass on the LFE channel, so that would eliminate that prospect. I think he also said that he has the same results with a DVD player.

By the way, when you turn LFE to OFF with the subwoofer still ON that makes the system's bass capabilities the same as the L, L, L BM setup with SW set to ON and subwoofer powered OFF.
But you said you were leaving your speakers set to SMALL and still allowing that redirected bass to go to your sub, which is not really the same thing as setting your speakers to LARGE and turning off the sub.

Even if the center/surround's F3 is ~60Hz, you'll hear a difference, especially in the mains when they're set to LARGE.

It's simple enough to do, but as monomer said, some people just want to argue instead of see what's really happening. ;)

He said that he get's plenty of bass on the LFE channel, so that would eliminate that prospect. I think he also said that he has the same results with a DVD player.
Yeah, I guess so. But I'm still wondering if it somehow has something to do with his HTPC (even though he "says" it behaves the same way with a DVD player). That's all I got. :rolleyes:

But you said you were leaving your speakers set to SMALL and still allowing that redirected bass to go to your sub, which is not really the same thing as setting your speakers to LARGE and turning off the sub.

Even if the center/surround's F3 is ~60Hz, you'll hear a difference, especially in the mains when they're set to LARGE.

It's simple enough to do, but as monomer said, some people just want to argue instead of see what's really happening. ;)



As you should remember, I have had my R & L main speakers set to large forever. I have never used small R & L main settings. You know, with LFE being sent to my mains as well as to my subwoofer in the L, S, S, & SW BM mode. Small speaker bass is redirected to my R & L main speakers, as is LFE. The LP filtered subwoofer supplements the R & L combined bass (R bass, L bass, RB, and LFE).

I repeat, I had enough subwoofers to try that all large setup in the past. I never liked the sound of it. Then again, I don't like the sound of an all small setup either. Dollar for dollar, the subwoofer per main speaker was also a waste of resources. Stacking the subwoofers in the corner was a better use of my subwoofer assets.

I still think it is just a DVD mix issue. Darren is expecting more "loud & deep bass" from the main channels than the soundtrack is willing to give him. That does not mean that there is no bass the way that I read it.

Like you advised me to do years ago, the best thing to do is use a proper DD encoded test disk to verify BM operation and to verify the correct subwoofer operation on each channel in the DD playback mode. Kal Rubinson advised the same thing on this thread, and it was good advice!

Darren,

I'm wondering if THIS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=876188) post is relevant to the problem you are having since you say you are using an HTPC. Not to insult your intelligence, but are you certain that what is being sent to your processor from your HTPC is an unprocessed digital bitstream and that your processor is truly applying DD5.1/DTS5.1 processing and not some other 2-channel processing mode like Dolby Pro-Logic?

My processor sees the signal as 5.1 (Either DD or DTS) and displays that on its display.

Darren

Like you advised me to do years ago, ..................OMG! Was that "years ago"? It's only been a year or two .............................. right? :eek:

OMG! Was that "years ago"? It's only been a year or two .............................. right? :eek:



Yikes, it was late 2004. I did a search of the AVS archives.

Still, that old advice remains classified as good advice!