I saw this at the avrev forum

Warner Bros. Home Entertainment, in an unexpected move, has announced a delay in the launch of the Total HD disc format until next year. Total HD discs are two-sided discs that have HD DVD on one side and the competing Blu-ray format on the other.

Proponents of the Total HD Disc format say that it gives the consumers both HD formats on one simple disc at a fair price. Critics suggest the idea of two new formats on one disc only complicates HDTV and disc format decisions for consumers who are already understandably confused.

Currently, Warner Bros Home Entertainment and Paramount are the only two movie studios producing movie titles in both high-definition formats. Universal remains loyal only to the HD DVD format while Disney/Buena Vista and Sony are dedicated solely to the Blu-ray HD disc format.

The launch delay is due in large part to the idea that Hollywood movie studios are truly divided over the two HD disc formats. Consumers remember the VHS versus Beta format war and are adopting the new HD formats with less enthusiasm than they did with DVD because of the uncertainly over both formats. More importantly, copy protection issues make it difficult for consumers to get their players physically working. Additionally, studios are slow to release a meaningful volume of high profile, new films on either of the HD disc formats. Lastly and despite the boom in HDTV sales, players are priced at many times that of a traditional DVD player, leaving consumers wondering if the upgrade is worth it right now. If HD disc players drop to $199 or lower for the holidays this year – expect one or both of the formats to boom. In this case, Total HD could be a viable solution but more than likely “universal” players, like the ones seen in the awful audio format war between DVD-Audio and SACD, would be more the norm on store shelves.

Source: GlobeandMail.com


To me this was good news, I thought the Total HD disc wouldn't do anything but prolong the format war & confuse J6P even more.
The quicker one format admits it's lost & leaves the battlefield the better it will be for the consumer.

I sure hope it's dead.

I sure hope it's dead.

that is exactly what I was going to say...

i think it is.

IMO, by the time Warner is planning to roll this out in 2008, it will be even more clear than now that HD-DVD is a dead end. It won't be worth the expense to produce discs in the TotalHD format.

that is exactly what I was going to say...

Warner has got to be reading these threads. Hopefully they are not dumb enough to go on with their God forsaken idea.

Source: GlobeandMail.com

The launch delay is due in large part to the idea that Hollywood movie studios are truly divided over the two HD disc formats. . .



I thought that the whole point of the hybrid format was to provide one product that services both user camps. The fact that studios are divided is why we still have a format war. If the studios were united behind one platform, Total HD would be a solution in search of a problem.

For them to slip schedule by 6 months or more says one of several things. Take your pick:

1. Total HD was total vaporware from the beginning,
2. Warner anticipates a format war winner emerging in the next six months or so, and thinks it is not worth the investment,
3. They got enough negative feedback from market research and groups like this that it has been indefinitely shelved,
4. It is not cost-effective at this time due to technical or poor economy of scale type issues.

I vote for 2,3,4.

Old news!

When they announced it was coming out at the end of 2007 my first though was, HD DVD could be all but dead by then. If it comes to launch time and HD DVD is still getting thrashed in sales figures I can't see Warner bothering. That's not even taking the number of people who just don't want it into consideration. They may just decide to drop HD DVD support altogether

I thought that the whole point of the hybrid format was to provide one product that services both user camps. The fact that studios are divided is why we still have a format war. If the studios were united behind one platform, Total HD would be a solution in search of a problem.

For them to slip schedule by 6 months or more says one of several things. Take your pick:

1. Total HD was total vaporware from the beginning,
2. Warner anticipates a format war winner emerging in the next six months or so, and thinks it is not worth the investment,
3. They got enough negative feedback from market research and groups like this that it has been indefinitely shelved,
4. It is not cost-effective at this time due to technical or poor economy of scale type issues.

I second what Oink said but I think #2 is what really motivated them the most. When the big recent theatrical titles start appearing in October it will be nearly over. That guy and his family with the HD DVD player in their basket is gonna ask a clerk where he can find Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End, Spider-man 3, The Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, Live Free or Die Hard, Ratatouille, Jungle Book or maybe Halloween and its back to the shelf for the player. If according to Nielson, nearly 70% of high definition software sales are Blu-ray, the numbers should be abysmal for HD DVD by December. I can actually see Paramount or Warner pulling the plug entirely next year. Just my opinion.

God I hope so!

I think they want to see BD and HD DVD sales numbers over the remainder of the year...since BD has been outselling HD DVD, they might not see it as a necessity if that sales gap widens over this year.

As a long-term product, THD only makes sense if you think both formats will survive.

Increasingly, the studios see the format war as something that is impeding adoption and needs to be stopped.

Putting off THD introduction was a very wise decision and allows it to die gracefully.

If dual format players approach the prices of single format players, both formats will likley survive. In that case the neutral studios will go with what makes them more money.

Well.... I'll be one of the few to voice my support for TotalHD here. I really don't understand why everyone hates it so much. Nobody has even sampled the product yet but everyone seems to be making blind assumptions about it.

Because they know that HD DVD alive in any form, might spell the demise of the BD format. I agree "there should be only one."

Its just the cost that scares me a liitle. HDDVD combo discs are $5 more per disc.
How much will 2 next-gen discs glued to one another cost. $40 at amazon $45-60 in stores. What will the cases really look like. We've all seen the mock case. But what color will they be clear, purple?

But I'd guess they are delaying them to see how it all pans out. If a side wins in the next year. They don't have a bunch of total HD discs lying around.

When the big recent theatrical titles start appearing in October it will be nearly over. That guy and his family with the HD DVD player in their basket is gonna ask a clerk where he can find Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End, Spider-man 3, The Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, Live Free or Die Hard, Ratatouille, Jungle Book or maybe Halloween and its back to the shelf for the player.
I hadn't thought of that...but you are absolutely right.
All the big movies, all BD.
Those titles will kill off HD-DVD.

The only 2 studios that might have used TotalHD are Warner and Paramount.

A lot of people hate flippers. I don't care much for them myself.

As a consumer, I don't want to spend any $ on HD DVD. If I'm buying a TotalHD, I'm effectively giving half of my $ to them, and casting half a vote in favor of their format.

We need one clear winner to help kill this format war and drive the winner more mainstream.

Well.... I'll be one of the few to voice my support for TotalHD here. I really don't understand why everyone hates it so much. Nobody has even sampled the product yet but everyone seems to be making blind assumptions about it.
For me, it doesn't have anything to do with "making blind assumptions about it." We already know that the Blu-Ray side of a THD disc has a maximum of 25GB. That, effectively, cripples Blu-Ray and makes Blu-Ray a redundant technology. It's the extra 50GB's and ability to perform higher data rates that gives Blu-Ray an advantage over HD-DVD. Blu-Ray on THD is at a disadvantage.

Needless to say, I'd never buy a THD disc.

How can somethin' that never lived be dead? ;) I've never believed THD was anything other than a veiled threat. I'll crap my pants if it ever really happens!

Partial HD makes more sense to me than THD ever could. In PHD you glue a DVD to a BD and joe sexpack loves it since he can play it in his minivan too....

That guy and his family with the HD DVD player in their basket is gonna ask a clerk where he can find Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End, Spider-man 3, The Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, Live Free or Die Hard, Ratatouille, Jungle Book or maybe Halloween and its back to the shelf for the player.

Evan Almighty is better than all those titles you listed combined and then some. :D
jokes aside, are there any other titles worth mentioning that are HD-DVD exclusive other than Grindhouse which isnt even from Universal?

If according to Nielson, nearly 70% of high definition software sales are Blu-ray, the numbers should be abysmal for HD DVD by December. I can actually see Paramount or Warner pulling the plug entirely next year. Just my opinion.

since warner supposedly has a stake in HD-DVD, if they do pull the plug on HD-DVD i think that'd be it for HD-DVD regardless of what Universal does. plus imo until universal puts out the likes of Jurassic Park in KK quality, they're not doing much for hd-dvd.

I don't think we'll see any big jumps in adoption with potc3 or SM3 this fall. You'll just start to see the mass market dipping it's toes this holiday season. About the time when HDDVD 51gb discs should start popping up. This is also the time when BD should have most it's java/online feature set figured out. Which of course greatly reduces any technical bragging rights from either format. I'm sorry to break the news to a lot of you but HDDVD is going to be around for quite some time. That being said - it would be great to see both sides of the forum get all the bickering out of it's system and unite for the love of HD. Cuz these arguments are going to get real old fast. Well, Older I should say.

But yeah, if dual format players catch on (which I'm sure they will) then this disc format will never see the light of day. I would expect both Fox and Universal to go neutral sometime next year. Unless price is a main factor to you, not buying a dual format player would just be foolish. Why would anyone want to restrict themselves for the sake of supporting a corporation? I think most people just want to support their home theatres.

I would expect both Fox and Universal to go neutral sometime next year. Unless price is a main factor to you, not buying a dual format player would just be foolish. Why would anyone want to restrict themselves for the sake of supporting a corporation? I think most people just want to support their home theatres.

Because of the AACS crack, I don't see Fox ever going neutral. They're so strict about copy protection that they pulled most of their titles until BD+ could be implemented. Dual-format players could still become the norm eventually, but I don't think Fox will ever release titles on HD DVD.

we'll see...


and if a human makes it - a human can break it. Don't put any money on BD+ remaining uncracked for long.

I don't think we'll see any big jumps in adoption with potc3 or SM3 this fall. You'll just start to see the mass market dipping it's toes this holiday season. About the time when HDDVD 51gb discs should start popping up. This is also the time when BD should have most it's java/online feature set figured out. Which of course greatly reduces any technical bragging rights from either format. I'm sorry to break the news to a lot of you but HDDVD is going to be around for quite some time. That being said - it would be great to see both sides of the forum get all the bickering out of it's system and unite for the love of HD. Cuz these arguments are going to get real old fast. Well, Older I should say.

But yeah, if dual format players catch on (which I'm sure they will) then this disc format will never see the light of day. I would expect both Fox and Universal to go neutral sometime next year. Unless price is a main factor to you, not buying a dual format player would just be foolish. Why would anyone want to restrict themselves for the sake of supporting a corporation? I think most people just want to support their home theatres.

The large gap in recent software sales has developed without much help from Fox and MGM. This fall they will be back in the game exclusive to Blu-ray along with Starz (Anchor Bay), Disney, Lionsgate and Sony. In addition, lots of content is also coming from Paramount and Warner Brothers. As the 4th quarter approaches, this gap will widen further.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-9/1071897/blockbusterte2.jpg

I started out last year as a staunch supporter of the HD DVD format. But eventually you cannot ignore the mounting evidence. I hate to break the news to you but HD DVD is already taking its last desparate gasps. Fox is never going neutral and there is absolutely no need for a dual format player.

Dual format players will not be necessary when inevitably, Universal is forced to go neutral (they are already reportedly making inquiries about Blu-ray replication). Blu-ray player pricing is already dropping to levels comparable to the HD DVD players. In my opinion, that is precisely why Warner has pushed back Total HD. It isn't gong to be necessary and they know it. The industry wants a single format and it looks af if they will soon have their wish.

I experienced the same scenario back in the mid eighties when I was a young college video rental entrepreneur. The VHS and Beta battle played out in a similar fashion. Oh sure, you were able to still buy Beta titles here and there but it died a pretty rapid death. The same will hold true for HD DVD.

For me, it doesn't have anything to do with "making blind assumptions about it." We already know that the Blu-Ray side of a THD disc has a maximum of 25GB. That, effectively, cripples Blu-Ray and makes Blu-Ray a redundant technology. Strange since several VC-1 Warner releases that fit on 25 gb storage media are some of the highest rated by independent reviewers. But I guess you are one of the people who watch the bitrate meter instead of the actual presentation itself?Its just the cost that scares me a liitle. HDDVD combo discs are $5 more per disc.
How much will 2 next-gen discs glued to one another cost. $40 at amazon $45-60 in stores.
But I'd guess they are delaying them to see how it all pans out. If a side wins in the next year. They don't have a bunch of total HD discs lying around.Finally a valid argument against TotalHD. I am in total agreement with you on this point homerx. I hope Warner can keep costs down or at a minimum not pass this expense on to the consumer. But like you said, we will have to wait and see.

I don't think we'll see any big jumps in adoption with potc3 or SM3 this fall. You'll just start to see the mass market dipping it's toes this holiday season. About the time when HDDVD 51gb discs should start popping up. This is also the time when BD should have most it's java/online feature set figured out. Which of course greatly reduces any technical bragging rights from either format. I'm sorry to break the news to a lot of you but HDDVD is going to be around for quite some time. That being said - it would be great to see both sides of the forum get all the bickering out of it's system and unite for the love of HD. Cuz these arguments are going to get real old fast. Well, Older I should say.

But yeah, if dual format players catch on (which I'm sure they will) then this disc format will never see the light of day. I would expect both Fox and Universal to go neutral sometime next year. Unless price is a main factor to you, not buying a dual format player would just be foolish. Why would anyone want to restrict themselves for the sake of supporting a corporation? I think most people just want to support their home theatres.

at $1200 price is definitely a factor for most ppl. format war needs to end, period. hd-dvd gettin 51gb discs is moot b/c its bitrate is capped at an amount so higher capacity isnt really going to make much of a difference. there are many ppl who dont or can't afford to own both formats that needs this format war to end. at this point the sooner the better. there are even neutral format ppl now changing their minds about coexistance of two formats. i can think of aaronsch being one such person. i want one format not b/c i want to support a corporation, supporting both formats just means supporting more corporations.

i already own a ps3 and there's no way in hell i'm buying a hd-dvd player b/c i simply dont want to use up 2 hdmi connections out of the 3 i have (all in use atm) for the same purpose of playing hd movies. 2 devices means 2 connections on the receiver, 2 remotes to program to the universal remote, 2 players to make room for on the av rack, all for the same purpose. different color boxes isn't very aestheticly pleasing either.

dual format players will be out of the average person's price range for quite a while still. having 2 devices for the same purpose just isn't practical and isnt cheap either.

and no, fox wont be going neutral, i see them more likely to quit the hd game completely than going neutral. if warner goes bd exclusive or universal goes neutral, that shoud spell the end of hd-dvd.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-9/1071897/blockbusterte2.jpg

I hate to break the news to you but HD DVD is already taking its last desparate gasps and Fox is never going neutral. There is absolutely nothing to indicate such lunacy.

Dual format players will not be necessary when inevitably, Universal is forced to go neutral (they are already reportedly making inquiries about Blu-ray replication) and Blu-ray player pricing drops to levels comparable to the HD DVD players. And that my friend will be sooner then later. In my opinion, that is precisely why Warner has pushed back Total HD. It isn't gong to be necessary and they know it.

I experienced the same scenario back in the mid eighties when I was a young college video rental entrepreneur. The VHS and Beta battle played out in a similar fashion. Oh sure, you were able to still buy Beta titles here and there but it died a pretty rapid death. The same will hold true for HD DVD.


To me? heh. The strategic use of bold aside...

Let's talk in December. and then again next June at which point I'm sure HDDVD will still be "taking it's last gasp". I would hesitate to use past format battles as a blueprint for how this is going to play out. It's food for thought but intellectually lazy to think the situation is parallel. Especially if you're a BR supporter. A technically superior format made by Sony - hmmmmm. and if you're a HDDVD supporter, I hate to break it to you but the porn industry will not keep your format afloat like it did with VHS.

one thing we should all remember when debating this. Never say never. You might just end up looking foolish. As I just might when all the cards are played. But I'm ok with that.

Ps the new Samsung dual format player is latest rumored to be priced at aprox $750.
Not $1200. and as with all players - they will get cheaper. Most of my friends are all waiting for one befire they take the plunge because both formats have titles they want.

...I would hesitate to use past format battles as a blueprint for how this is going to play out. It's food for thought but intellectually lazy to think the situation is parallel. Especially if you're a BR supporter....

Well, I started out last year as a staunch supporter of the HD DVD format. But eventuallyI could not ignore the mounting evidence. Personal attacks aside, I guess you find your opinion more a-hem, "intellectually" reliable than any empirical evidence. :rolleyes:

Well, I started out last year as a staunch supporter of the HD DVD format. But eventuallyI could not ignore the mounting evidence. Personal attacks aside, I guess you find your opinion more a-hem, "intellectually" reliable than any empirical evidence. :rolleyes:
What people do not see in those nielson graphs is how tiny of a percentage both formats have. Obviously Blu-Ray is doing better, but until either format starts selling about 10x what they are now, neither format is even close to closing the books on the other.

Blu-Ray fans need to get over thinking the war is over, and HD-DVD fans need to come to the realization that Blu-Ray is definately in the lead at current and in 2007.

What people do not see in those nielson graphs is how tiny of a percentage both formats have. Obviously Blu-Ray is doing better, but until either format starts selling about 10x what they are now, neither format is even close to closing the books on the other.

Blu-Ray fans need to get over thinking the war is over, and HD-DVD fans need to come to the realization that Blu-Ray is definately in the lead at current and in 2007.

Do you think an end to the format war will increase consumer confidence and adoption?

Well, I started out last year as a staunch supporter of the HD DVD format. But eventuallyI could not ignore the mounting evidence. Personal attacks aside, I guess you find your opinion more a-hem, "intellectually" reliable than any empirical evidence. :rolleyes:

sorry if I came off as sounding like I was calling anyone here dumb and I certainly don't claim to be an intellectual. I also certainly won't deny the immense lead that BR has right now. I was just saying that I would caution looking to past battles as a clear indicator for how this will play out - for both sides.
Personally, yes I'm of the thought that it's way too early to make any definite conclusions. If I were forced by gunpoint to pick a winner I would of course pick BR - and it's the format I prefer on paper anyways. I just see this all like trying to pick who the next presidential candidates will be before the primaries. There's plenty of safe assumptions to be made, but foolish to claim anything with absolute certainty. I also think it's great that we do indeed have many different views on the subject instead of a bunch of people preaching to the choir.

What people do not see in those nielson graphs is how tiny of a percentage both formats have. Obviously Blu-Ray is doing better, but until either format starts selling about 10x what they are now, neither format is even close to closing the books on the other.

Blu-Ray fans need to get over thinking the war is over, and HD-DVD fans need to come to the realization that Blu-Ray is definately in the lead at current and in 2007.

Despite your view that the market share is too insignificant to matter, I actually believe the end is nearer for HD DVD than you might think. Don't forget that when VHS and Beta were slugging it out, there really wasn't a consumer market for software. It was the Mom and Pop stores buying tapes for rental and an elite few had VCRs attached to their television sets. That reality did not stop the retailers and manufacturers from quickly making their choice long before the VCR went mainstream.

I strongly believe we are witnessing the same cards being played out all over again. You have a multiple number of manufacturers producing Blu-ray players with Sharp just today announcing the introduction of their first entry. Major exclusive studio support has not wavered for Blu-ray while Universal has reportedly been investigating Blu-ray replication and Starz Home Entertainment, a studio that had initially sat on the fence has made their choice. Add to that the decision made by Blockbuster last week and you'd have to be blind not to see the reality of the situation. My prediction? Retailers will begin to pull the plug on Toshiba in 2008. Will HD DVD totally disappear right away? Of course not...hell, there are people that probably still have their VHS as well as Beta libraries. But for all intents and purposes, Blu-ray is already the winner of this high definition war.

We can only hope by the time WB wants to launch the bastardized formated disc that HD DVD is already part of failed format graveyard of history.