Does anyone know what stand companies manufacture stands in first world countries preferably the USA? I'm looking to get a nice stand, but don't want to be duped into paying premium prices for cheap Chinese crap. Thanks in advance for your input.

there is a lot of great, high quality stuff coming out of china. is your issue with chinese goods political or do you actually think they're crap? if it's the former, understandable. the latter, maybe it's time to take another look.

I know that Paradigm speakers are manufactured in Canada...

http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/factory_tour/

Chinese stuff can be garbage or exceedingly well constructed. It all depends on the specs the company contracting for the mfg calls for.

OmniMount is made in Arizona.

It's both. Many of our veterans saw plenty of their buddies die fighting communism and now we're embracing it and selling out our manufacturing base (hard to compete with a country that basically has no environmental or labor safety standards) and also most things today you buy from that country in particular are just cheap crap. Given the price that audio furniture manufacturer's charge, I fully expect that the product is made in an American, German, Canadian, etc, factory with workers who aren't transient people peddling away in dangerous conditions.

Thanks for the info on Omnimount. I'll focus on them. It'd be easier if racks and mounts, etc, put the Made in country on their ads.

now we're embracing it and selling out our manufacturing base

Actually, it's always been cheaper to manufacture over there. The only difference is that shipping efficiencies have only comparatively recently made it such so advantageous.

It's a global economy and one of the best ways to open up a country is to trade with it.

In my experience, most electronics and other related items are just not made in the USA anymore. They're pretty much from somewhere in east Asia, or maybe Mexico (where my Korean Samsung TV was actually built).

While I sympathize with the "Made in USA" philosophy, if I strictly adhered to it I wouldn't have anything to buy.

It'd be easier if racks and mounts, etc, put the Made in country on their ads.

Not enough people care to make it worth the effort of printing it.

Tech-Craft: http://www.techcraft.net/htm/index.htm

Made in Canada.

"It's a global economy and one of the best ways to open up a country is to trade with it."

There's a deadweight economic loss to protectionism, but that only applies if countries are in an open system and not manipulating things to their own advantage. You see Made in China on so many things because they illegally peg their currency to the US dollar. The economic systems are unable to adjust and thus it makes China's goods unfairly cheap here. Basically, the lobby that has a vested interest in Chinese manufacturing is strong enough to cause congress and a Bush II to do nothing about it.


Thanks for the info on tech craft.

Many of our veterans saw plenty of their buddies die fighting communism................

I fully expect that the product is made in................... German........... factory..................
So, you would buy German?

Ja.

On a related note, are there any DVD players on the market that are made in the USA? I know that Oppo is based in Mountain View, CA but do they actually build the units over here or just design them?

On a related note, are there any DVD players on the market that are made in the USA? I know that Oppo is based in Mountain View, CA but do they actually build the units over here or just design them?There are probably very few, if any, DVD players "Made in the USA". Some really high-end units may be made here.

I seriously doubt Oppos are "Made in the USA". Most likely they come from China, but could possibly also be made in Malaysia or Taiwan.

I heard on the radio this morning about a family that tried to go a year without using anything (knowingly) made in China. They actually made it through, but ended up having to do without a lot of stuff.

Of my home theater, only my DVD player was made in China, but none of it was made in the USA.

Heck, other than Oppo or Audiovox/RCA, are there any US-based HT consumer electronics makers left?

I heard on the radio this morning about a family that tried to go a year without using anything (knowingly) made in China. They actually made it through, but ended up having to do without a lot of stuff.

Of my home theater, only my DVD player was made in China, but none of it was made in the USA.

Heck, other than Oppo or Audiovox/RCA, are there any US-based HT consumer electronics makers left?

Can't think of any off hand, unless you count speaker manufacturers and the like.

While not necessarily HT oriented, I think Curtis Mathes, Crosley and Philco may or may not still be around with regards to televisions. Though it's doubtful that any of them actually design or manufacture anything.

"It's a global economy and one of the best ways to open up a country is to trade with it."

There's a deadweight economic loss to protectionism, but that only applies if countries are in an open system and not manipulating things to their own advantage. You see Made in China on so many things because they illegally peg their currency to the US dollar. The economic systems are unable to adjust and thus it makes China's goods unfairly cheap here. Basically, the lobby that has a vested interest in Chinese manufacturing is strong enough to cause congress and a Bush II to do nothing about it.


Thanks for the info on tech craft.
Well said.

Besides, given the choice the same poor slobs (Americans) that are losing their jobs to Chinese workers blissfully continue to support and drive the trend by continuing to purchase cheap crap from China at retailers like Wal Mart. They are self-inflicted wounds allowed to fester by Bush and his ilk who are only too happy to take huge profits as the cycle continues to spiral downwards.

America only makes two things anymore, fat kids and war.

Since speakers and audio equipment isn't included in that list I'd suggest you listen to two cans-n-string or buy Chinese! If it's any consolation the decline has been so precipitous that nothing you can do now is going to stop it. Enjoy. :)

That actually reminds me of a new Bush plan to actually use obese American kids as ammo in the war on terror. :eek:

I was amazed when I bought $10K of Klipsch speakers to find out they were made in China. Nice Klipsch website at the time with all the pictures and press releases about their US facilities--no real mention of the facility in China making most of their speakers. It is shocking that $10K speakers can't be made in the US and still be profitable.

Related to China there is a whole host of reasons we should be concerned with them. Nothing like finding out all my son's trains that he played with often were painted with paint containing lead.

It is shocking that $10K speakers can't be made in the US and still be profitable.
But of course they can... but then that's the point. Today's morality is dictated strictly by the bottom line and nothing else. Corporations and the people that run them would rather see their own country (USA) collapse than settle for lower profits. My guess is this trend will continue and intensify until the point where so many Americans have become unemployed and impoverished that there is some sort of revolution... then it's anyone's guess.

Well, that or 90+% of Americans will end up working at Wal Mart (which of course will be owned by a Chinese company by that time)! :eek:

........ Americans will end up working........................Americans working?!?!?!? :eek:

No way! That's for the Mexicans. :rolleyes:

By the way. I know for a fact man "made in USA/Italy/Whatever" is actually "Made in China". My friend works as a procurrment/purchasing direction in China. Instructions were made specifically by the parent company to label it "made elsewhere" during packaging. So anyways, I would not be surprised even if "made in wherever" was actually "Made in China".

Americans working?!?!?!? :eek:

No way! That's for the Mexicans. :rolleyes:
Sad but true! :eek:

By the way. I know for a fact man "made in USA/Italy/Whatever" is actually "Made in China". My friend works as a procurrment/purchasing direction in China. Instructions were made specifically by the parent company to label it "made elsewhere" during packaging. So anyways, I would not be surprised even if "made in wherever" was actually "Made in China".
Yeah, if you look at the back of the "Made in USA" label it says "Made in China." So, I don't doubt you're right about that!

If you want businesses to prosper in the US, or any country for that matter, then have the government make it attractive for the business to do so. Simplify the various business laws, regulations, forms, governing bodies, and reduce the corporate taxes.

If you want businesses to prosper in the US, or any country for that matter, then have the government make it attractive for the business to do so. Simplify the various business laws, regulations, forms, governing bodies, and reduce the corporate taxes.

I agree with this in principal, but we can't even make this government stop war, let alone change business law. In our form of government, people get what they want and what they deserve and this administration validates that statement. We embrace mediocrity, mysticism, and ignorance. We fought against this in the 60's but what has really changed?

So, you would buy German?


See your problem is your expecting a Xenophobic rant to make sense, and it never does. The big difference between buying German vs Chinese is obvious: Germans are white, while the Chinese are not.

Besides, given the choice the same poor slobs (Americans) that are losing their jobs to Chinese workers blissfully continue to support and drive the trend by continuing to purchase cheap crap from China at retailers like Wal Mart.


The best is trying to explain that to them and getting a blank stare, followed by them saying "but the prices are cheap, so why should I spend more elsewhere". They never seem to understand the concept. Many times it is like the movie "Idiocracy" has come to life and is staring you blankly in the face.

See your problem is your expecting a Xenophobic rant to make sense, and it never does. The big difference between buying German vs Chinese is obvious: Germans are white, while the Chinese are not.No, the big difference is that West Germany, which was the larger half of Germany both by land area and population, was firmly on the West's side of the cold war, and the post cold-war merger just subsumed East Germany into the political structure of West Germany. So while not neccessarily supporting the Op's rant, it is correct to lump Germany in with "first World" countries like USA and Canada, and not with China and other ultra-low labour cost South-East Asian countries.

Anyone here actually go out of their way to buy "Made in the USA" for home theater products? If so, how successful are you?

What companies/countries do you go to if "USA" isn't possible?


Not really judging, just trying to get a straw poll here.

No, the big difference is that West Germany, which was the larger half of Germany both by land area and population, was firmly on the West's side of the cold war, and the post cold-war merger just subsumed East Germany into the political structure of West Germany. So while not neccessarily supporting the Op's rant, it is correct to lump Germany in with "first World" countries like USA and Canada, and not with China and other ultra-low labour cost South-East Asian countries.


What was said is he didn't want to support China because of all the troops that died fighting the cold war. The point we were making is a hell of a lot more troops died fighting the Germans in two Wars than ever died fighting the Communists.

If you want businesses to prosper in the US, or any country for that matter, then have the government make it attractive for the business to do so. Simplify the various business laws, regulations, forms, governing bodies, and reduce the corporate taxes. You are ill-informed if you believe these programs will stem the tide of outsourcing and offshoring to China, India and other countries with cheap labor markets, the real attraction to corporations.

I might well be ill-informed. OTOH, you've got to consider that many factories are highly automated and don't require a lot of personnel nor that it necessarily be trained to the same levels. I just don't think that constant impediments and complexity equate to home-grown. Unemployment rates aren't too bad it seems.

I might well be ill-informed. OTOH, you've got to consider that many factories are highly automated and don't require a lot of personnel nor that it necessarily be trained to the same levels. I just don't think that constant impediments and complexity equate to home-grown. Unemployment rates aren't too bad it seems. Unemployment rates don't count the underemployed and those for whom unemployment insurance has run out. low wage workers are not the only component of a Cheap labor market, little or no oversight indicative of governments who are not concerned with the welfare of the majority of their citizenry, and conservation and preservation of the environment is another component. Unless you’re willing to peel back years of “progress” in labor and environmental law the price of labor will always be more expensive in the US irrespective of advances in automation

Well, we can find both good and bad examples of environmental progress. I have my own opinions on environmentalists stymying the construction of geothermal facilities in California. At some point though, the costs of labor are counterbalanced by reductions in other manufacturing overheads including shipping and delays. As you say, the Unemployment rates don't count the underemployed and for those whose UI has run out. They also weren't counted when the unemployment rates were higher too.

Frankly, I see no reason why the burdens couldn't be lifted even if there were to be an 'experiment' to gauge the results. In any way, China will do what it has to advance its own national agenda. Maybe instead of bitching, we should do the same.

In any way, China will do what it has to advance its own national agenda. Maybe instead of bitching, we should do the same.
Can you be more specific as to what you think we should do that China does? I can't think of anything that wouldn't trample all over the Constitution.

I'm not looking to trample over the Constitution. I'm not advocating that we suddenly relax pollution standards or eliminate child safety laws or any of that good stuff. I'm simply saying that if we want to have a stronger manufacturing base, then there are steps that can be taken to make businesses more efficient from any number of ways. The cost of labor is always going to be different whether it's because of wages or because a machine takes the place of a human. It's not by legislating protectionism though. Maybe a good start would be to not have so many lawyers in Washington. Maybe there should be term limits for Senators and Congressmen. Maybe the public should realize that government should fear them by voting out every Republican, Democrat, and Independent and voting new ones in. Do that a few times. Start in a small state or two. See what happens. Shake the bastards up.

Chu Gai, I must respectfully disagree. I think the only answer is indeed to legislate protectionism (or at least a particular form of it).

It's a simple truth that we cannot compete with a country that has very little or no human rights or labor laws. Neither can we compete with a country that has no legislation to protect the environment (not that the US has done a good job controlling carbon emissions but we do have many legislated protections).

The truth is we are trying to "compete" on a very uneven playing field and we'll never do a very good job without the rules being applied equitably. Of course the idea of "competing" with China is a bit absurd in the first place because that's not at all what corporate America or the Bush administration has constructed in the relationship - they simply want a Mad Max type free-zone to move their manufacturing to so they can avoid those strict US laws, oversight and regulations. We have simply outsourced the horrible working conditions and environmental holocaust of the past to China - that way we get the unsustainable profits those corporations thirst so dearly for.

So, my friend, I think your proposal is folly. I too wish it was possible but as long as private corporations own the politicians in this country and China has an oppressive government nothing will change.

And I'm not advocating protectionist policies either. On the contrary I understand laissez faire policies a la von Hayek and the Chicago School of Economics. But even they stipulated a role for the government to maintain the institutions necessary to foster fair competition in the market place. Which is the crux of the problem with China, India et al; they do not play fair. These guys aren't encumbered by a legal system where their actions can be challenged by individuals, and as a result they run a muck. Forget child safety laws, try child labor laws. The playing field is not level.

This can get very complicated discussing these matters here as we're into political territory and besides, it's starting to dominate the topic of audio. Perhaps the reason it hasn't been shut down is that we've been pretty much polite about it. Also, having more than conversations with more than a person or two starts becoming difficult if we want to spend the time to reflect on our answers. So this will be my last post in this thread.

To mnn1265, it's my opinion that the matter is more complex than you're saying with regards to the present administration. A great many countries have similar situations and similar concerns regarding their manufacturing base. Myself, from a practical point of view, I see little difference between outsourcing to countries with inexpensive (by our standards) labor and buying a robotic device that takes the place of a dozen people and never takes breaks, vacations, or goes to the water cooler. However, I sense a general increase in pissed offedness towards China largely due to the issues with the tainted dog food and various medicines and other products that've had 'antifreeze' (certain glycols) in them. Frankly, I'm puzzled (maybe not!) why the media hasn't made this more of an issue. I suspect they would've had it been a US company.

To sprung2, all I can say is if they don't play fair, then we need to find ways to play better.

To the OP and others. I fully respect your personal decisions on how to spend your money. Be they country of origin, personal experience, color, who owns it, whatever. It's your money - well a percentage is! - and far be it from me to tell you differently. I myself boycott certain countries and also support certain countries who I personally would like to thank by spending some of my dollars there. Yes, the made in China sticker is in a lot of places. Maybe someday the wheel will turn again. We can bitch all we want about conditions, wages, environment, theft of intellectual property with a wink from the government, etc. However, countries tend to do what they do and it takes a very focussed eye with world wide exposure to get a reaction. In the meantime, I think it's shortsighted to start blaming corporations entirely and maybe we should focus on what we can do better.

That's all folks. Hope you find the right stand.

I don't think anyone will object to us discussing this in the "Audio theory, setup and chat" since this is indeed chat about factors that effect the supply of audio equipment, but if you would rather not participate further in politically oriented discussion that is your perogative. I can't imagine a rationale for censoring this discussion thread.

I do agree this is more complex than what we've touched on but not so much so that we can't have a meaningful discussion about it. The point about there being little practical difference between robotic automation and "outsourcing" jobs to third world countries is only true on the most cursory and rudimentary levels. Sure, the result in terms of job-loss can roughly be the same but it totally ignores so many other critical matters, some are literally matters of life and death.

If I automate a speaker factory in Podunk USA and fire a bazzillion workers I have indeed reduced the pool of available jobs. The same is true if I move my factory to a Mad Max zone in some (practically) unregulated country. If we stopped there then sure the practical job loss would be equivalent. My automated factory however is still in the US and that means I can't dump the toxic chemicals used to manufacture speakers into the sea, I can't exploit child labor, I can't use environmentally sensitive materials in building, I can't use the profits to fund totalitarian regimes... the list goes on and on. By moving my factory to the wild frontier anything goes. Not to mention that my automated factory still pays taxes and must require some employees to maintain it (including the jobs required to manufacture and maintain the robots themselves). So, automating a factory or moving it offshore are very, very different things even in practical terms.

Personally, I'm not pissed off at China. How could I be, it's our own doing. We're the ones that decided to economically support the communist Chinese totalitarian state in exchange for really cheap junk on the shelves at our local Wal Mart and other short-term gain. I think the Chinese have the best battle plan ever devised; what they never could have achieved militarily they will achieve economically. It's not like anyone thought they were nice people (the leadership) to begin with...

One thing I do agree with is that it's not just the corporations at fault, the government and American consumers share in the blame. I think it's also true that the future will bring change and all it takes is for the Chinese people to get tired of living in oppression and the entire formula changes - it is indeed a very complex issue.

Damn Chu, why not insist that China play fair, why not insist that they observe basic human rights. What's with the hard knocks pragmatism. Maybe you don't know that Free enterprise and democracy are inextricable linked.

...why not insist that China play fair, why not insist that they observe basic human rights...

And exactly who are we to insist that other countries act and observe morals that we endorse? Are we the police department of the world? While I certainly don't endorse exploiting people for profit or gain, while I may not agree with this practice in another part of the world, what right do I have to force my version of morality on them? I'm not suggesting that what they do is right, but how would we act if we had 1.5 BILLION people in our country? I might suggest that a job, any job, would be a good thing. I don't have any answers, but I don't think that one answer is to force our morality on others before we decide to do business with them. All I can do as an individual is to police and take responsibility for myself and to expand that, I believe that our country can only legislate its own behavior. If we want to compete in a global economy we need to fine tune our own business practices, find new and imaginative ways to compete, not to try to change the rest of the world. That leads to war.

And exactly who are we to insist that other countries act and observe morals that we endorse? Are we the police department of the world? There are certain fundamental and alienable rights. No we are not the world's police but we are its moral compass. And what are we saying to the rest of the world when we do business with abusive regimes. While I certainly don't endorse exploiting people for profit or gain, while I may not agree with this practice in another part of the world, what right do I have to force my version of morality on them? Yet you are forcing your version of morality upon others simply by profiting from their misery. I'm not suggesting that what they do is right, but how would we act if we had 1.5 BILLION people in our country? I might suggest that a job, any job, would be a good thing. We do have a large pool of low wage unskilled workers, they're known as illegal immigrants. I too am not sure how we will in the end deal with the illegal immigration problem, but whatever the solution is, I know it won't violate the Constitution. I cannot say the same for China. I don't have any answers, but I don't think that one answer is to force our morality on others before we decide to do business with them. All I can do as an individual is to police and take responsibility for myself and to expand that, I believe that our country can only legislate its own behavior. If we want to compete in a global economy we need to fine tune our own business practices, find new and imaginative ways to compete, not to try to change the rest of the world. That leads to war. You cannot compete against unfair cheap labor markets. Don't take my word for it, look at the prevailing business trends and year over year of trade deficits

And exactly who are we to insist that other countries act and observe morals that we endorse?
...

I don't have any answers, but I don't think that one answer is to force our morality on others before we decide to do business with them. All I can do as an individual is to police and take responsibility for myself and to expand that, I believe that our country can only legislate its own behavior.
Following your own doctrine you not only wouldn't have intervened to help the British fight the Nazis in WWII but also would have continued to do business with the enemy! :eek:

Would you shop at a local store if you knew the owner was a convicted child molester and started every morning torturing innocent little baby kittens?

You yourself have no moral conviction if you don't act in a manner that supports those beliefs. I do agree that it's wrong to impose our individual morality on other individuals (as long as they act within the law) but that does not apply to nation states.

Our contry does in fact legislate all kinds of things about what other countries can and cannot do. Trade treaties, military alliances, political alliances and international law all depend on this type of legislation. If other countries break the agreements we penalize them and vice versa. It's a ridiculous assertion to suggest we can only legislate our own behavior/laws.

...No we are not the world's police but we are its moral compass...

This is a really scary post. Who made US the moral compass for the world?

Following your own doctrine you not only wouldn't have intervened to help the British fight the Nazis in WWII but also would have continued to do business with the enemy! :eek:

Would you shop at a local store if you knew the owner was a convicted child molester and started every morning torturing innocent little baby kittens?

You yourself have no moral conviction if you don't act in a manner that supports those beliefs. I do agree that it's wrong to impose our individual morality on other individuals (as long as they act within the law) but that does not apply to nation states.

Our contry does in fact legislate all kinds of things about what other countries can and cannot do. Trade treaties, military alliances, political alliances and international law all depend on this type of legislation. If other countries break the agreements we penalize them and vice versa. It's a ridiculous assertion to suggest we can only legislate our own behavior/laws.

Not worth responding to except to say that a simple premise that we don't have the right to force our version of reality on the rest of the world, being construed to mean that I support Nazi's is spin worthy of the current administration. The poster I was responding too didn't state that we should stop doing business with them, but that we should INSIST that China conform to our rules. He then went on to explain that, in his mind and perhaps yours, the USA should be the moral compass for the world. So just how many people in Iraq have we killed, left maimed, homeless, and destitute, to stop WMD's that never existed? And we are the moral compass for the world? Scary thought. Perhaps we should take care of the garbage in our own backyard before we dictate to others. And this site is supposed to be about Audio Video, not political agendas, so I'll back out and leave it to all of you "moral" people to pat youself on the back, pump yourself up with patriotic bravado, take the high ground (legends in you own minds), and show this simple man how wrong he is for no reason other than he doesn't agree that we should be trying to empire build in the rest of the world, certainly not at the expense of human suffering and lives. What give us the right? Might?

This is a really scary post. Who made US the moral compass for the world?...He then went on to explain that, in his mind and perhaps yours, the USA should be the moral compass for the world.
I am not stating anything new. We became the world's moral compass by our position as the remaining super power.
The poster I was responding too didn't state that we should stop doing business with them, but that we should INSIST that China conform to our rules. Incorrect, in response to Chu's suggestion that we accomplish the impossible and compete fairly against unfair cheap labor markets, I stated that why do we not insist that China play fair, that China observe basic human rights, which if they did would greatly level the playing field. My "insist" was a rhetorical question, not a demand of anyone but a suggestion.Not worth responding to except to say that a simple premise that we don't have the right to force our version of reality on the rest of the world, being construed to mean that I support Nazi's is spin worthy of the current administration. Your response did seem immoral.

I am not stating anything new. We became the world's moral compass by our position as the remaining super power.
Incorrect, in response to Chu's suggestion that we accomplish the impossible and compete fairly against unfair cheap labor markets, I stated that why do we not insist that China play fair, that China observe basic human rights, which if they did would greatly level the playing field. My "insist" was a rhetorical question, not a demand of anyone but a suggestion. Your response did seem immoral.


I don't want to get into a pissing contest over this, but your post above is scary as well. You sugest that being a superpower, somehow, makes us moral. By that point of view, I guess the old USSR was moral as they were clearly a superpower.

And if your going to post rhetorical questions, you should state them as so upfront. A suggestion that we "insist" that another country conform to our beliefs, is a pretty strong statement. And then you back it up by saying we are the moral compass of the world simply because we have superpower. And then tell me I'm immoral since I don't want to impose my particular morality on anyone else and am generraly against war.

Does anybody but me see the irony in this :eek:

I don't want to get into a pissing contest over this, but your post above is scary as well. You sugest that being a superpower, somehow, makes us moral. By that point of view, I guess the old USSR was moral as they were clearly a superpower.

And if your going to post rhetorical questions, you should state them as so upfront. A suggestion that we "insist" that another country conform to our beliefs, is a pretty strong statement. And then you back it up by saying we are the moral compass of the world simply because we have superpower. And then tell me I'm immoral since I don't want to impose my particular morality on anyone else and am generraly against war.

Does anybody but me see the irony in this :eek: A pissing contest is exactly what you desire to detract from your obvious immorality and/or your possible poor reading and comprehension skills ;)

Fundamental and alienable rights - look them up.

And exactly who are we to insist that other countries act and observe morals that we endorse? Are we the police department of the world?

Kinda, yeah. Reason being is that those types of countries tend to be highly aggressive towards their neighbors, partake in rampant disregard for personal rights and freedoms of their own countrymen, and generally make their own internal environment highly unstable. In this world, that leads to easier penetration by terrorist groups and others seeking to cause trouble. Nations that are strong internally with a healthy economy (that actually benefits the ones generating it) usually do not have these problems.

Besides, be real. Someone has to play hall monitor, and there really isn't anyone else so equipped.

While I certainly don't endorse exploiting people for profit or gain, while I may not agree with this practice in another part of the world, what right do I have to force my version of morality on them? I'm not suggesting that what they do is right, but how would we act if we had 1.5 BILLION people in our country?

Understood, but what ifs are irrelevant. We must deal with the situation at hand as it stands. That said, China is ripe for trade as a developing nation (just surpassed our growth I believe :eek: )

I might suggest that a job, any job, would be a good thing. I don't have any answers, but I don't think that one answer is to force our morality on others before we decide to do business with them.

You can't make your kid behave the way you want the day guests come over. You have to instill certain practices and mindsets well in advance.

All I can do as an individual is to police and take responsibility for myself and to expand that, I believe that our country can only legislate its own behavior.

True, we can only legislate ourselves. We can however insist on certain principles of conduct prior to engaging in trade with anyone. Nobody here is discussing invasion or other craziness like that, so don't slide too far down the slope while you're visualizing this situation.

If we want to compete in a global economy we need to fine tune our own business practices, find new and imaginative ways to compete, not to try to change the rest of the world. That leads to war.

We do compete quite favorably in a global economy, and yes, we always have much to fix. That does not mean we can ignore the other people at the party.

However, I sense a general increase in pissed offedness towards China largely due to the issues with the tainted dog food and various medicines and other products that've had 'antifreeze' (certain glycols) in them. Frankly, I'm puzzled (maybe not!) why the media hasn't made this more of an issue. I suspect they would've had it been a US company.

Well, after seeing a video where a chow got beaten to death with a STICK because he didn't have an owner in the streets of China indicates to me that they really don't care about dogs, other than of course to add to the stir fry.

Human rights. Slave wages. Environmental concerns.

All countries evolve with respect to those at different rates. Allow me to tell you a story culled from my family.

My mother had 2 sisters and two brothers. Actually there were more, but in the early 1900's if you got sick your chance of dying was pretty good. By all that I can tell, they were dirt poor. She says my father was even poorer because at least she had butter. Sometimes. Her mother sent the oldest, her sister, to the US because things were better or so she'd heard from friends and other relatives who'd come to the US. My aunt worked in the textile mills. Not full time. Not even all the time. If the boss liked you and if you didn't complain, you worked more. If he 'really' liked you, you might even get overtime. She lived in a one room apartment in a poor area of town. To save a nickel, she walked to work even if that meant getting up an extra hour earlier. To supplement her income, she cleaned houses for those who had money. Eventually, she saved enough and sent for my mother. Same situation. Both lived in the same apartment. They sent for the remaining sister. All worked when they could. They made their own clothes from fabric that some textile mills threw away. They learned how to knit and crochet using the yarns the firms they worked for threw away. Dumpster diving. Meals were all made at home. Shopping was the thrift store and yesterdays donuts and breads. Eventually, all came over, the youngest brother last. That was because he had married and had children. That cost money especially since all now also had their own families. Enough of my story.

Things were hard here. The mills that dyed yarn were notorious for dumping dyes and chemicals into the river. There was no noise pollution concernes and if anyone has ever been in a textile mill (I have because I used to bring my father his lunch and thermos of coffee when he worked the third shift for an extra 5 or 10 cents an hour) they'll know what I mean. You complained, maybe you didn't work. In many ways, the conditions bore more resemblance to China than not.

Yes, China has issues. Some of my shoes come from Brazil or other South American countries that use child labor to make them and adhesives, glues, and solvents that are banned here. Where were your shoes made? I have the most beautifully made coffee mugs that surprisingly were made in Egypt. Things aren't so wonderful there. I've got some shirts made in Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia and so forth. Great countries for picking up underage girls for a little suckie/phuckie, right?

Eventually, but not I suspect in my lifetime, I see things changing in China. With increasing education, exposure to the world, heck, even the Olypmics, those are all impetusus for change. It's never too quick for those who feel the pain. My mother and her sisters felt the pain. What they had is what I have. That things will be better for my children. I suspect the earliest hunter/gatherers had the same hopes. I have worked and do work with some who've come here from China. They've been back but are staying here. Their kids you see are pretty Americanized and speak without a trace of accent and they, like my mother, and perhaps some of you, want opportunity for our children. Yet, when they return, they say things are better than when they left. Not like here, but better.

Trade deficit? Sure. We've got one with China. So does most every other country. Job losses? Sure. I've seen it said that around 1900, 40% of American workers were involved in farming. What's it now? Less than 1 or 2%? A number of countries have lost manufacturing jobs besides the US. How's about Japan, England, Canada, Mexico, Korea, France, Germany, and even China! Although jobs are lost, manufacturing output has steadily increased. Even in China.

When I buy something, let's say from a local farm by me, I give them money, they give me produce. There is a balance here. His bank account is $50 richer. My fridge has $50 of produce it didn't have before. That same balance occurs if I bought from a farm in another city, state or country. Now, what does China do with that money it gets? It doesn't go into a mattress. It gets invested. Perhaps to buy buildings in this country. Perhaps to buy US stocks, bonds, treasuries, real estate, and a host of other investments. All this contributes to economic growth, both here and abroad. Wealth is most certainly not a static commodity with only a fixed number of dollars. Wealth is created. I'm not especially concerned about this. I do know that it doesn't pay much to complain how the other team is playing. You've just got to play smarter. Otherwise, you lose and all you've got is your bitching to keep you warm at night. When the Celtics were on the ropes, Bird literally called his team a bunch of pussies. The next game was physical. You've got to adjust. You've got to compete. That is, if those jobs are really important to have in the first place.

Maybe this'll be my last comment. Obviously, I can't keep my 'promises'.

Not worth responding to except to say that a simple premise that we don't have the right to force our version of reality on the rest of the world, being construed to mean that I support Nazi's is spin worthy of the current administration. The poster I was responding too didn't state that we should stop doing business with them, but that we should INSIST that China conform to our rules. He then went on to explain that, in his mind and perhaps yours, the USA should be the moral compass for the world. So just how many people in Iraq have we killed, left maimed, homeless, and destitute, to stop WMD's that never existed? And we are the moral compass for the world? Scary thought. Perhaps we should take care of the garbage in our own backyard before we dictate to others. And this site is supposed to be about Audio Video, not political agendas, so I'll back out and leave it to all of you "moral" people to pat youself on the back, pump yourself up with patriotic bravado, take the high ground (legends in you own minds), and show this simple man how wrong he is for no reason other than he doesn't agree that we should be trying to empire build in the rest of the world, certainly not at the expense of human suffering and lives. What give us the right? Might?
Not sure why you're freaking out and clearly you're making wildly inaccurate assumptions like the one that I in any way approve of the current administration or that I believe the US should be the world's moral compass.

For one I detest Bush and his ilk and have since before he stole the first presidential election. Second, I think our countrly has acted very immorally in Iraq and elsewhere in the world for the last 7 years. Not to mention the erosion of liberties here at home. Typically those that act in the name of religion or morality are the worst transgressors themselves. So, no I'm no cheerleading patriot...

However, you are free and Chinese people are decidedly not. Bush will go and moral leaders will return to the US at some point... our constitution and our governmental structure makes us superior. Don't confuse the fact that we as a nation act immorally at times to suggest that we don't have a superior form of government. Believe me we do and I guaruntee if you lived there for a week you'd change your tune. We don't allow our children to be exploited in sweat shop factories or..... I don't even have to go on the list is almost endless.

The point isn't that the US has acted immorally (clearly it has) but rather that it is immoral to support the Chinese regime that enslaves a large slice of this planets residents. You shouldn't need me to point that out. Morality may be relative but there are some absolutes too... such as freedom is superior to enslavement... you know this stuff.

Anyway you've devolved into bickering so I'll leave it at that.

Chu Gai, I appreciated that personal account of your family’s experience. Your assessment of the past in this country I think is accurate as well.

However, you conspicuously missed one glaringly obvious difference between the US of the past and China. The Constitution of the United States. They don't have the benefit of that document and probably never will. Their trajectory will likely be very, very different and I think that's already evident.

Now, what does China do with that money it gets? It doesn't go into a mattress. It gets invested. Perhaps to buy buildings in this country. Perhaps to buy US stocks, bonds, treasuries, real estate, and a host of other investments. All this contributes to economic growth, both here and abroad. Wealth is most certainly not a static commodity with only a fixed number of dollars. Wealth is created. I'm not especially concerned about this. I do know that it doesn't pay much to complain how the other team is playing. You've just got to play smarter. Otherwise, you lose and all you've got is your bitching to keep you warm at night. When the Celtics were on the ropes, Bird literally called his team a bunch of pussies. The next game was physical. You've got to adjust. You've got to compete. That is, if those jobs are really important to have in the first place.

Maybe this'll be my last comment. Obviously, I can't keep my 'promises'.
We're not talking about a basketball game so that analogy isn't very helpful... the closest analogy would be if the other team were all on steroids, stimulants, wore brass knuckles and had 26 players on the court... would Bird bitch then?

China can (and does) just as easily invest that money into weapon systems, espionage and to buttress the oppressive totalitarian regime. You can't assume all investment is beneficial to everyone, where did you get that notion?

I accept that it is possible that by doing business with China that it might possibly help foster positive changes in that country but it just as easily could simply be funding the armament of one of the world’s worst oppressors of humanity and the greatest threat to free government.

I think we have to do everything we can to push for real changes from China before they are simply a rich threat and we have to go to war to finally put an end to their failed communist totalitarian form of government.

You can push. It might do something. That something though may play better with the press and constituents than it does in real life. You're right they don't have a constitution as we do. They're largely a communist country that realizes it also needs to be capitalistic in order to become whatever it is they want to become. My take is they want to be both an economic and military power especially when it comes to the oceans.

I strongly feel that the upcoming Olympics is going to give the Chinese both what they want and fear at the same time. World exposure on a scale never envisaged. I don't know how much access the press will have to the country or whether there'll have to be confidentiality agreements much like CNN struck with Hussein over their coverage of the country. Should be interesting.

Changes are going to come there, but I have no idea what they will be. Like I said, not in my lifetime. Hopefully, the values and compasses that we have will find their way over and that will be positive for all. Certainly, I much prefer a war on space, for knowledge, on managing our resources, on better population management, than I do to armed conflict. I'm cautious about China though but willing to trade with them because I think the positives outweigh the negatives.

Now I didn't say all investments were beneficial. I recognize the spying. I'm more than a little interested in this and it wouldn't bother me terribly if certain known spies just happened to have car accidents. I advocate the death penalty for citizens of our country who are caught spying. Spying by other countries, complicity by our own politicians, newspapers, and scientists also feeds this. The readings of spying during the second world war and stories of people like Bill Donovan, Hoover, William Stephenson (a British Intelligence officer aka Intrepid), and others certainly suggests that enemy agents have no problem enlisting the aid of 'concerned' citizens of our own country.

To conclude, some quotes come to mind.

1) A while back a Chinese general stated that China has nothing to fear from the US because all it'll take is 3000 casualties and we'll fold. That speaks volumes to me about what they're willing to do and what we are. Not necessarily war but their commitment to themselves.

2) Lord Palmerston said. “Britain has no eternal friends or eternal enemies, only eternal interests." As China moves towards its own interests, let us also move towards our own in the most expedient way possible.

3) In the movie, 'Munich', Meir states, "Every civilization finds it necessary to negotiate compromises with its own values."

Chu Gai, I don't think I can take exception to anything you said. Many are very good points.

The one thing you said that I don't a necessarily agree with is the point about America giving-up (after a few hundred casualties) in a potential war with China. Don't mistake the queasiness in Somalia, Viet Nam and lately in Iraq as an indication that America wouldn't make a formidable and dedicated adversary in the event of a war with China. I think Americans do need to believe that the cause of a war is just (to maintain commitment) but once they do I don't think anything can stop the American war machine. I think China would rally that kind of commitment in a big way...

I'm only quoting, or hopefully remembering accurately, what the Chinese General said. It takes a particularly strong stomach when one fights an opponent that is willing to set its kids up and slaughter its own people. I don't want to see a war and I harbor no animosity towards the Chinese people. I've found that people tend to want the same general things. Governments, not necessarily so. Regarding things like rights, I still remember the story about FDR who had a Chicago newspaper editor leak information that we'd broken an enemy code. I think FDR had him promptly locked up for a while. Now, that editor's rights may've been violated but IMO, that was the right thing to do. In part it's things like this I mean when I refer to Meir's supposed quote.

Anyways, your right and choice to buy from whom you want, is just that. Your right. You don't have to justify it to me. Vote with your wallets and vote with your votes or by contacting people. I do.

Fundamental and alienable rights - look them up.Ummm...................... don't you mean INalienable rights? You've said that incorrectly several times, now. :rolleyes:

Ummm...................... don't you mean INalienable rights? You've said that incorrectly several times, now. :rolleyes:
Sue me.