ATI Radeon HD 2X00 (2400,2600,2900) series owners thread [Text View] - Page 21

Ludvig

04-18-08, 12:18 AM

Yes, it's exactly that - however you can't do that outside PDVD, even if you're using the cyberlink mpeg2 decoder. The filter's switch is either on for both, or off for both.

The best way to test a decoder without permanent changes to your setup is with DXVA Checker. Open a file with it, it'll tell you which codecs provide acceleration, and whether dxva1/dxva2. Choose a codec and play it via evr/vmr9, it'll tell you whether HA is on, what mode of deinterlacing is in use, and cpu/frame rate to boot. Pretty much ideal for quick testing :-)

Hello,

arfster,I've been reading you for a while but it's the first time I haven't understood anything of what you've said.Ok,I'm lost ! :confused:
My position:
- pwdvd 7.3 3319a
- ZP using pwdvd filters when available with Haali renderer or wmr9/r (No ffdshow installed,ever)
- x1650xt with 7.7

1) So what's at stake with this AVIVO package ?
a) When I watch dvds or mpeg2hd with the cyberlink mpeg2 filter + Haali,the dxva option is checked,an acceleration is performed and everything works splendidly.Why should I use the mpeg2 filter included in the package instead of the Cyberlink one ?
b) It has been mentionned that there is also an avc filter available in this mysterious package.What's its status right now ? Is it actually a filter ? If yes,is it exploitable ?

2) About the dxva checker:
a) How does it work ? You write "Open a file with it" but what do you mean ? When I run the checker,it gives me the gpu dxva abilities.
There's an option that says "Check Directshow filter".When I choose ,for example,"coreavc.ax",I have a message saying that the checking failed.I can't check the Cyberlink filters either because they are .dll (?).
b) You write:"Choose a codec and play it via evr/vmr9, it'll tell you whether HA is on, what mode of deinterlacing is in use, and cpu/frame rate to boot."
Choose a codec and play it ?
Arfster,I wish you were a little more pedagogic on these two but thanks for testing the drivers so extensively.This is a crucial work you are providing here.

HT Slider

04-18-08, 02:40 AM

BTW, for those of you running Vista Media Center (VMC) and want to try a different codec for Recorded and Live TV (.dvr-ms files), the easiest way is to use this utility:

http://mediacenterexpert.blogspot.com/2006/07/vista-media-center-decoder-utility.html

It allows you to see the currently assigned decoder, allows you to see a list of installed video and audio decoders that are flagged as Media Center compatible (by the codec manufacturer), and allows you to select and change the decoder VMC will use.

I haven't tried the AVIVO decoder since apparently skip/replay and/or FF/RW do not work with it.

I am now using the Cyberlink PowerDVD Ultra 7.x HD/BD decoder for video and the default Microsoft decoder for audio.

It seems to work well but I haven't really compared the image quality much yet. One thing for certain, the Microsoft decoder often crashed with specific digitally recorded 720p and 1080i shows plus it often temporarily displayed a black screen when skipping and replaying content. The Cyberlink HD decoder doesn't suffer from either of these issues and skip/replay/FF/RW all work fine. BTW, while the Microsoft decoder crashes with specific content, it only crashes with systems with ATI video cards (and the HD2600XT is apparently one of the worst for crashing the MS decoder). With my other HTPCs with Nvidia video cards, the Microsoft decoder never crashes and the decoder actually works well with those same recordings (that won't work with the ATI card).

If you have a CableCard PC apparently the only decoder that will work is the Microsoft decoder, but if your recordings are not copy protected there are many different ones that can be used.

arfster

04-18-08, 09:40 AM

a) When I watch dvds or mpeg2hd with the cyberlink mpeg2 filter + Haali,the dxva option is checked,an acceleration is performed and everything works splendidly.Why should I use the mpeg2 filter included in the package instead of the Cyberlink one ?

Absolutely no reason at all, if it's working for you :-) Avivo is largely only useful for solving specific problems, and if you have things working you're already sorted. For most people, the cyberlink decoder is better for mpeg2.

b) It has been mentionned that there is also an avc filter available in this mysterious package.What's its status right now ? Is it actually a filter ? If yes,is it exploitable ?

Nah, it's completely and utterly useless. Half-finished I think.

2) About the dxva checker:
a) How does it work ? You write "Open a file with it" but what do you mean ? When I run the checker,it gives me the gpu dxva abilities.
There's an option that says "Check Directshow filter".When I choose ,for example,"coreavc.ax",I have a message saying that the checking failed.I can't check the Cyberlink filters either because they are .dll (?).

It's not very well labelled, but you should open a video file with that.

b) You write:"Choose a codec and play it via evr/vmr9, it'll tell you whether HA is on, what mode of deinterlacing is in use, and cpu/frame rate to boot."

After you open the video above, it'll give you a list of all compatible codecs for that video type, the various acceleration modes each decoder supports, and which matches dxva1/dxva2 with the card.

For example, I open a mpeg2 file, I get Cyberlink, bitcontrol, ffdshow, avivo, nero, nvidia and probably some others. Cyberlink will say it supports multiple mode_mpegA or something similar, with a DXVA1/DXVA2 next to one of them cos the card supports both (this being Vista). FFdshow will support nothing, since it doesn't do acceleration. NVidia will support DXVA1 only, because they're lazy *^^7s and never updated it.

If you then select a codec, right/click, you can tell it to play the file via VMR9, or EVR. Remember dxva2 needs EVR for acceleration.

one_2go

04-18-08, 10:59 AM

Where is the 8.4 hotfix available from. Somehow I can't find it on the AMD/ATI site.

wyrdic

04-18-08, 11:32 AM

Thanks for those - looks like expansion is behaving OK then. Untweaked VMR9 doesn't expand, and smpte75% is around 180ish. Tweaked to expand, it goes to 190/191ish.
How is it with HD?

Cata8.3/8.4/8.49 expand a HD movie colour automatically regardless of UseBT601CSC value.
(As you mentioned before there (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11659897#post11659897).:))

I had already tested HD with 8.3/8.4.
http://tirnanog.fate.jp/tmp/scan/8.4test/
cata8.3 bt601=1 (http://tirnanog.fate.jp/tmp/scan/8.4test/cata8.3%20usebt601csc=1(by%20tweak0.13)%20hd%20vmr9.jpg)
cata8.4 bt601=0 (http://tirnanog.fate.jp/tmp/scan/8.4test/cata8.4%20usebt601csc=0(default)%20hd%20vmr9.jpg)
cata8.4 bt601=1 (http://tirnanog.fate.jp/tmp/scan/8.4test/cata8.4%20usebt601csc=1(by%20tweak0.13)%20hd%20vmr9.jpg)

also, i've just tested HD movie with 8.49
http://tirnanog.fate.jp/tmp/scan/8.49test/HD/
UseBT601CSC=0:
ramp HD on overlay (http://tirnanog.fate.jp/tmp/scan/8.49test/HD/cata8.49%20bt601=0%20ramp%20HD%20overlay.png)
ramp HD on vmr9 (http://tirnanog.fate.jp/tmp/scan/8.49test/HD/cata8.49%20bt601=0%20ramp%20HD%20vmr9.png)
ColorBar75(bt.601) HD on vmr9 (http://tirnanog.fate.jp/tmp/scan/8.49test/HD/cata8.49%20bt601=0%20SMPTE%20ColorBar75(bt.601)%20HD%20vmr9. png)
ColorBar75(bt.709) HD on vmr9 (http://tirnanog.fate.jp/tmp/scan/8.49test/HD/cata8.49%20bt601=0%20SMPTE%20ColorBar75(bt.709)%20HD%20vmr9. png)

UseBT601CSC=1:
ramp HD on overlay (http://tirnanog.fate.jp/tmp/scan/8.49test/HD/cata8.49%20bt601=1%20ramp%20HD%20overlay.png)
ramp HD on vmr9 (http://tirnanog.fate.jp/tmp/scan/8.49test/HD/cata8.49%20bt601=1%20ramp%20HD%20vmr9.png)
ColorBar75(bt.601) HD on vmr9 (http://tirnanog.fate.jp/tmp/scan/8.49test/HD/cata8.49%20bt601=1%20SMPTE%20ColorBar75(bt.601)%20HD%20vmr9. png)
ColorBar75(bt.709) HD on vmr9 (http://tirnanog.fate.jp/tmp/scan/8.49test/HD/cata8.49%20bt601=1%20SMPTE%20ColorBar75(bt.709)%20HD%20vmr9. png)

test sample file
http://tirnanog.fate.jp/tmp/sample/ITU-R/
regards :)

Where is the 8.4 hotfix available from. Somehow I can't find it on the AMD/ATI site.
here:)
http://www.ngohq.com/home.php?page=Files&go=cat&dwn_cat_id=18

one_2go

04-18-08, 04:08 PM

Damn, they make it even worst to get the fix, have your PC scanned for free, no thank you. Download and update drivers ends up with a version tracker, and I don't feel like going through the registration process.

Thanks for your help.

EDIT: Well googling for 8.4 hot fix finally revealed the ATI download location but it also revealed it is for AGP cards:
http://support.ati.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=894&task=knowledge&questionID=31542

Dee_NA

04-18-08, 04:17 PM

@ Arfster - Let me know what you think of these settings when you get a chance...

Brightness: 50
Contrast: 100
Saturation: 100
Hue: -5.30
Gamma: 0

The movie looks great on the PC but I'm not sure how it will look on the TV once the UseBT601csc is applied though.

wyrdic

04-18-08, 05:42 PM

Damn, they make it even worst to get the fix, have your PC scanned for free, no thank you. Download and update drivers ends up with a version tracker, and I don't feel like going through the registration process.
I should have mentioned that sooner.
e.g.
ATI Catalyst 8.4 Hotfix <---- click here
Size: 31Mb
Hits: 242
Author: ATI
Description: CCC
Operation System: Windows XP/2000
Run a FREE Scan for ATI Catalyst 8.4 Hotfix related errors

dufflover

04-18-08, 09:03 PM

Finished the format and move up to Vista last night/early this morning, and rather unfortunately only came across the Vista details in the FAQ after finishing and sure enough, the Vista solution isn't too flash either. I guess just to point out the same things in the FAQ in different words:

- Vista runs much slower (in a general OS sense). No surprise cos it's an old system, but my point here is simply that if it doesn't do much better, there's no point and it's back to XP

- With Catalyst 8.4 and the RegTweaks 0.14, if I try and force Vector Adaptive it just automatically reverts to Bob. If I leave it on Auto, I'm assuming it just uses Bob; are there any good test videos which really show the difference between Bob and Vector?

- So I check in the mentioned DXVA tool and sure enough, for MPEG2, it only has 1920x1080 for Bob and Weave; only up to 480 (wtf!) for the advanced modes.

- Installed the K-Lite Codec Pack 3.9.0 (just what I'm use to using), and also the AVIVO pack, however Vista Decoder Utillity only has the original MS MPEG in the list

- When playing back 1080i MPEG2 in Vista MCE anyway, it hangs round 75% CPU use on BOTH cores (X2 3800+) and GPU hangs round 40%; now in XP and Bob, it's about 50% on the GPU but only 25% on the CPU cores. So you can see why it's pointless for waste of CPU power for Vista if it really is just doing Bob.

gah; backed into a corner here! In XP the FFDShow method for software decoding and hardware de-interlacing would only use Bob right? (since it's either Bob or Weave in FFDShow options).
What about the AVIVO codec then?

arfster

04-18-08, 09:21 PM

In XP the FFDShow method for software decoding and hardware de-interlacing would only use Bob right?

Nah, that ffdshow menu label is misleading - all that does is tells the graphics card to deinterlace. The actual choice of mode is down to the drivers/card.

What card is this you're using? Also would help if you posted a screenshot of what dxvachecker is showing you when a mpeg2 1080i file is loaded (both tabs).

dufflover

04-18-08, 10:14 PM

Nah, that ffdshow menu label is misleading - all that does is tells the graphics card to deinterlace. The actual choice of mode is down to the drivers/card.
Ah ok. I just thought it only did do Bob because:
- if you choose Weave it really just does do Weave
- I read the post about PowerDVD being used inside Vista MCE (not that I've used PDVD) and that you can only choose Bob or Weave in that too.

What card is this you're using? Also would help if you posted a screenshot of what dxvachecker is showing you when a mpeg2 1080i file is loaded (both tabs).

Gigabyte HD2400XT (umm, so passive, 256MB DDR3, sucky 64-bit mem bus)
atm Catalyst 8.4 drivers and the AVIVO pack, however 7.7 seems to be worth a short. Also you say 8.1 officials break Vector Adaptive, but didn't quite get the part on the Guru 3D 8.1 betas - they do or don't break VA deinterlacing?

DXVA shot
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7535/dxvahd2400xtnh6.th.jpg (http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7535/dxvahd2400xtnh6.jpg)

For comparison, the DXVA shot on my main gaming rig (HD3870)
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/6052/dxvahd3870ye6.th.jpg (http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/6052/dxvahd3870ye6.jpg)

arfster

04-18-08, 10:54 PM

Ah ok. I just thought it only did do Bob because:
- if you choose Weave it really just does do Weave

Those labels are essentially commands to the graphics card:

Weave: don't deinterlace this video stream
Bob: deinterlace it (your choice how)

They're very stupidly named - should be something like "flag as progressive" and "flag as interlaced".

By the looks of your screenshot, it seems the 2400 won't support VA deinterlacing with HD. I haven't used a 2400 in ages, but my tweaks post seems to be suggesting this was always the case in Vista (not xp though). The exception are apps that can specifically select deinterlacing mode by their GUID - the only one I know of is PDVD itself (under the video menu/advanced section somewhere, select the GUID that begins with 3C).

My comments on 8.1 you refer to will have only applied to the 2600+

If the PDVD solution above isn't useful for you (it won't work with the cyberlink decoders in other apps for example), you could possibly fiddle an inf file and convince windows that your 2400 is actually a 2600. This should theoretically open up the MA/VA modes.

dufflover

04-18-08, 11:21 PM

From the looks of things I guess XP is the way to go then cos at least that listens to you even if it means it runs crap :rolleyes: ... or getting a 2600 but it's a fair bit more :( especially for the passive ones.

Though I'll be sure to make a disk image of the Vista install so it's not a complete waste of time :p

Will a 2400 with software decoding/hardware de-interlacing be any different in quality to a 2600Pro doing it all "properly"?

dufflover

04-19-08, 10:35 AM

On a different topic I just found out my Plasma supports Component through the D-Sub/VGA port (which I'm currently using atm anyway with normal VGA). Anyone know how/if the ATI drivers support outputting Component through the VGA port? Or is it just an adapter I'll have to put together (already got the pin outs saved :) )

Cos my Plasma (Hitachi 42" 42PMA400A) doesn't seem to care about component frequency (if there is such a thing), but through VGA I need to run 1920x1080i to get 50Hz (rest is 60Hz only = mismatch judder). But I can run something more reasonable like 720p/50Hz where things are more readable then it'll be nice :) .

And with the hardware/de-interlacing I think I'm nearing the end with these 4 possibilities:

a) Run software decoding with hardware de-interlacing via Avivo or FFDshow as mentioned. Again not sure of any quality differences if the decoding was done on the card.

b) If (a) fails or looks crap; just always run it in Bob mode

c) If (a) fails or looks crap; run Vista MCE and make use of the fact that it'll switch to Bob for HD channels only :p.

d) Get an HD2600 Pro for about a net outlay of ~$15 AUS and basically have things work out of the box almost with minimum tweaks/workarounds. I've already spent a ~$10 outlay for the XT so you can kinda see the whole "paying again" thing doesn't sit well. Like (a) looks just as good for example then probably no.

datman

04-20-08, 01:08 PM

can anyone tell me how to overclock the gpu in the 2600xt

Please

arfster

04-20-08, 01:18 PM

Will a 2400 with software decoding/hardware de-interlacing be any different in quality to a 2600Pro doing it all "properly"?

Assuming the memory bandwidth isn't a fundamental limiter (don't think it should be), and you actually manage to get VA working, a 2400xt should be identical.

Struggling to remember exactly, but I almost got this working perfectly with a 2400pro, but the card just wasn't quite fast enough. A 2400xt should be fine.

crussell1492

04-20-08, 04:13 PM

cganesh75

04-20-08, 06:08 PM

DavidinCT

04-20-08, 06:12 PM

Hi I purchased at 2600 so that I could connect my HTPC to my AVR via HDMI, now I want to go Component, I would like to trade my 2600 with someone for an similar quality Vista Media Center Compatible Video Card (Nvidia or ATI) that will do component out (and includes component dongle) please PM if interested thanks

I have a HD2600 512mb AGP card. It did not come with the dongle, but, has the S-video type connector between the 2 DVI ports on it. I ordered the dongle for $5 and I am now connected via component @ 1080i on my 65" RPG set.

Why not just get the dongle for it, if your happy with the card ?

Also, you do know that you lose HDCP if you go to component, right ? Ends up with problems with HD-DVD/Blu-ray discs...

crussell1492

04-20-08, 08:23 PM

actually that is a great idea and appreciate that, didnt realize that what I thought was just an s-video out was actaully component, thankfully was able to find the dongle tat came with the card

Dee_NA

04-21-08, 01:35 AM

@ Arfster or ExDeus - can either one one of you tell me if dxva_mpeg2hd will work with a hd 2400 pro?

looneybindk

04-21-08, 04:38 AM

Im Having some problem getting HW acc. of mpeg2 HD from bluray on my 2400pro running vista ult sp1.

Have latest Powerdvd 7, but it disables Aero everytime I start at Blu-ray disc. Am i right in beliving that EVR is needed to use DXVA on HD mpeg2? I have aplied the reg tweaks, and vc-1 and h.264 i accelarated fine, but mpeg2 maxes out the CPU and there are framedrops.

Any ideas? Do i need to trade in my 2400pro to something else (2600xt, nvidia gt8600gt, ect.?)

Thansk in advance.

arfster

04-21-08, 07:11 AM

Sorry,the 2400 models don't do acceleration with Bluray mpeg2.

tetsuo55

04-21-08, 07:44 AM

Sorry,the 2400 models don't do acceleration with Bluray mpeg2.

Are you sure? i think i watched a mpeg2 disc and it got fully accelerated

arfster

04-21-08, 07:56 AM

It was definitely like that a while back, and every so often someone posts saying they can't get it working.

Easy to check though, just look at PDVD properties while playing.

looneybindk

04-21-08, 09:00 AM

Sorry,the 2400 models don't do acceleration with Bluray mpeg2.

Okay, so its at clear choise then, im thinking about getting a 3450 or 3470, what would you recomend?

dufflover

04-21-08, 09:37 AM

Sorry,the 2400 models don't do acceleration with Bluray mpeg2.

I thought these cards were great for HD-DVD/Blu-Ray :confused:
Or is that because most are VC-1/H-264? (I did think MPEG2 Blu-Ray sounded a bit weird)

Also today, after forking out for a VGA-Component cable, found out that my Powerstrip crashing was due to an incompatibility with the AMD Dual Core Optimizer which I've since uninstalled, d'oh.

djos

04-21-08, 09:38 AM

Okay, so its at clear choise then, im thinking about getting a 3450 or 3470, what would you recomend?

3650 is the direct successor to the 2600 series and the 3450 is direct successor to the 2400 series - Stay clear of the 2400/3450 imo as they have less than half the stream processors on-board (40 vs 120 IIRC), half the texture units and this extra GPU processing power + double the memory bandwidth is worthwhile especially when the newer BluRay codecs are involved.

Se the specs of all the ATI card in question HERE (http://www.hothardware.com/Articles/ATI_Radeon_HD_Refresh_3650_and_3450_Arrive/?page=2).

trazalca

04-21-08, 09:52 AM

Hi all, i have a problem after installed vista sp1 and ccc 8.4, i have an ATI hd 2600 pro pci-e and athlon x2 6000, before i had hardware acceleration for H264 with cpu about 20/30% on 1080p without problem with mpc hc, after that, i lost it!! i tried also install aviva package but without results. I made a test with dxva checker and i have no filter for H264_avivo and when i try to open h264 matroska file the program said checkfilter invalid!
I applied also the ati 2400/2600 tweak 0.14 but no way!! Someone has some suggestion? Thanks in advance for reply.

arfster

04-21-08, 10:15 AM

I thought these cards were great for HD-DVD/Blu-Ray :confused:
Or is that because most are VC-1/H-264? (I did think MPEG2 Blu-Ray sounded a bit weird)

Pretty much all new releases are vc1/h264 - but a while back most were mpeg2.

Not sure why ATI did this - even the 2400pro has plenty power to do 1080p mpeg2 acceleration. Interlaced is more difficult sure, but there won't be many of those floating around in mpeg2.

looneybindk

04-21-08, 10:46 AM

I actualy dont have any blu-rays where the main feature is mpeg2, but at lot off the extras are, and i kinda like that stuff so....

I looked up the 3650 and they are reasonably priced, but the headsink on the passivly cooled models makes it take up to much space (and i dont really need the extra heating), so unless it's absolutely necessary I dont think ill go that way. wouldent the 3450 or 3470 be good enough for my needs? Blu-ray vc-1 h.265 and mpeg2 hd? anyone have real life exp. with these cards?

DereckVD

04-21-08, 10:58 AM

Sorry,the 2400 models don't do acceleration with Bluray mpeg2.

And what about a Sapphire 2600XT-agp?
according to this page, it wil do HA for mpeg2 too:
http://www.sapphiretech.com/us/products/products_overview.php?gpid=179&grp=2

I have a blueray-movie, gspot says its a mpeg2 transportstream and i cant get HA with my 2600XT-agp

system i got is:
-AMD athlon 2700 with 2 Gb ram
-Windows XP SP2
-Sapphire HD2600XT-AGP
-Catalyst 8.4 hotfix agp

What else do i need to get full aceleration with this card?
Are the registerhacks absolutely needed?
Does anyone know what i need more? Thanks for any answer:cool:

btw i got HA working with a hd-dvd movie and MPC-ht

greetz from Dereck;)

arfster

04-21-08, 11:08 AM

And what about a Sapphire 2600XT-agp?

The 2600 models do ..... but agp often seems to break things. With the PCI at least it doesn't need tweaking for mpeg2 HD to work.

ps are you using dual display? That breaks mpeg2 HD pretty thoroughly.

dufflover

04-21-08, 11:43 AM

Hey arfster, I read a (oldish I think) post a couple of days ago I think by you where you talk about the DXVA_NOHDDECODE key and how it works in XP, not in Vista, and in XP only with Pulldown disabled? (if you know what post I'm talking about and see I've remembered it wrong, well, it's because I haven't found it again to check, lol)

Anyway, I've finished re-setting up XP MCE, and with Vector deinterlacing forced, the 99% GPU problem only occurs if I check the Pulldown box. After some quick testing looks like I've got the Vista equivalent of it ignoring the setting and defaulting to Bob; but I thought it was supposed to work forced without the Pulldown checked (i.e. other way around). At the same time, can't really test if it's the pulldown rather than the deinterlacing stuffing it up.

btw this time I'm using Catalyst 8.4, and Cyberlink from K-Lite Codec Pack 3.6.0 (or 3.7.0, not sure). The previous time, before the Vista experiment and everything, it was K-Lite 3.4.5.
As stupid as this sounds, I basically want to get it lagging "properly" again before I then move onto using software decode/hardware VA.

DereckVD

04-21-08, 01:10 PM

The 2600 models do ..... but agp often seems to break things. With the PCI at least it doesn't need tweaking for mpeg2 HD to work.

ps are you using dual display? That breaks mpeg2 HD pretty thoroughly.

Right now iam using only one display but i was planning to get a fullhd-beamer as the second display;)

sigma957

04-21-08, 02:39 PM

If you want the original 16-235 (video levels) then go into CCC/avivo video/basic colour and turn "use application settings" off, brightness to 16, contrast 86 - pretty much exactly reversing the expansion.I've tried this tweak (brightness =16, contrast = 86) to reverse the automatic level expansion, but the Avivo "Basic Color" controls don't seem to have any effect in PowerDVD. They work with other apps (like watching mpeg2 HD in SageTV), but not in PowerDVD. Am I doing something wrong? I'm using a 2600XT in XP with Catalyst 8.3.

arfster

04-21-08, 02:48 PM

sigma957

04-21-08, 03:07 PM

Weird, they work in Vista + PDVD 7.3. Are you using PDVD8 by any nchance?I have both, but I was testing this with 7.3. I was using my DVE HD-DVD which I believe is VC-1 encoded. Is it possible that the Avivo color controls only work for certain types of video? I'm not at my HTPC right now, but I will try later with an AVC disc.

HT Slider

04-21-08, 03:38 PM

madshi

04-21-08, 03:45 PM

Guys,

I have a friendly contact at DriverHeaven. They say that after their article ATI and NVidia are now working to improve their drivers for HTPC playback. I've asked if I could collect a list of bugs for them to forward to ATI and NVidia and they told me to do just that.

So: Let's create a list of the most important bugs! I think we should concentrate on bugs that affect most cards (and not just one or two).

Let me start with the things that are most important to me:

(1) There must be an official "PC levels" / "video levels" switch in the display manager. When using "video levels" of course BTB and WTW must be correctly passed to the display.

(2) There must be official modes for 1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p50, 1080p59 and 1080p60. These modes must use the official EIA/CEA-861-B timings to the last letter with an as exact video clock as possible. These modes should be forcable, even if the display's EDID does not list them.

(3) There should be a way to fully turn off any fancy processing stuff (noise reduction, color changes, scaling, detail enhancement etc) without having to do any registry tweaks.

What are in your opinion the most important bugs you need to have fixed for perfect HTPC playback?

arfster

04-21-08, 04:27 PM

For ATI:

1) HD expands, SD doesn't. As you say, this should be the user's choice - defaulting to expanding maybe, because the average user has a PC monitor.

2) Using multi monitors breaks all acceleration with anything but 38xx cards.

tman247

04-21-08, 04:29 PM

I currently trying to establish which are the best of the available CAT's for a Vista32 HTPC w/PCIe 2600xt. I currently using reg-tweaked 7.11's, and although the pic is generally pretty good for SD/HD, will any of the new(er) releases make a significant improvement?

I do notice some jaggies on SD material (mainly on text), otherwise I don't want to upgrade if it's not worth it.

madshi

04-21-08, 04:30 PM

2) Using multi monitors breaks all acceleration with anything but 38xx cards.
Is acceleration broken on both monitors or only on one? And does this apply to both XP and Vista?

arfster

04-21-08, 05:00 PM

Is acceleration broken on both monitors or only on one? And does this apply to both XP and Vista?

As soon as you connect the 2nd display, it breaks for both. What's more, you can't restore it even if you disconnect the 2nd, you have to reboot :rolleyes: There are regtweaks to get around this, but they're a pita, and don't work for mpeg2 (necessitating the use of software decoding + hw deinterlacing trickery).

This is a new bug from 8.1+, maybe 7.12. I haven't tested XP, although it seems very likely it'll affect that also (most bugs are the same on both).

madshi

04-21-08, 05:03 PM

Thanks! Are there still any fancy color screw ups going on? I believe to remember that this was recently mentioned? If so, some details about that would be very helpful. Thanks!

sigma957

04-21-08, 06:50 PM

I prefer to adjust the main brightness and contrast settings and leave the AVIVO settings at default. These can be found under the "color" tab.I thought the main "color" settings only applied to the desktop and 3D graphics (VMR9?). Since PowerDVD uses overlay, they would have no effect.

ConradWS

04-21-08, 07:38 PM

As soon as you connect the 2nd display, it breaks for both. What's more, you can't restore it even if you disconnect the 2nd, you have to reboot :rolleyes: There are regtweaks to get around this, but they're a pita, and don't work for mpeg2 (necessitating the use of software decoding + hw deinterlacing trickery).

This is a new bug from 8.1+, maybe 7.12. I haven't tested XP, although it seems very likely it'll affect that also (most bugs are the same on both).

Its different for XP...hardware acceleration stills works for me...but I do have to run AnyDVD to stop HDCP compliant shutdowns caused by dual monitors. This issue is partly mentioned in the Catalyst Release notes. I don't think its a bug. It may be intentionally induced by Cyberlink and ATI has had to write theirs drivers to adapt to it...for instance...shutting down the second monitor instead of allowing it to crash your computer. Actually its more than a guess. When I emailed Cyberlink about these issues they flatly stated they will not support dual monitors which violates HDCP compliance.

I just tried installing 7.12 for grins and the stupid setup said it couldn't find the right hardware.

Later, Conrad

sigma957

04-22-08, 01:41 AM

I've tried this tweak (brightness =16, contrast = 86) to reverse the automatic level expansion, but the Avivo "Basic Color" controls don't seem to have any effect in PowerDVD. They work with other apps (like watching mpeg2 HD in SageTV), but not in PowerDVD. Am I doing something wrong? I'm using a 2600XT in XP with Catalyst 8.3.I played around with this some more, and here is what I have discovered (with cat 8.3 in XP):

1) I don't think the UseBT601CSC tweak works. Despite applying the UseBT601CSC tweak, SD is not expanding. Using the SD DVE patterns I definitely can see the btb line whether I set UseBT601CSC or not.

2) When playing HD material in PowerDVD, level expansion takes place (I cannot see the btb line in HD DVE), but you cannot correct it using the Avivo "Basic Color" controls. They appear to have no effect in PowerDVD. I tried this with VC1 and AVC material, using component and HDMI.

The only way I have found to make btb visible with PowerDVD is to bump up the brightness in PowerDVD's color controls to about +3. This is not ideal, however, because I think all this is doing is compressing 16-235 to something like 32-235 so that when catalyst subsequently expands it it goes back to 16-235. (This kind of compression/expansion will result in some loss of "color" resolution and could cause artifacts like banding.)

If the "Basic Color" controls are working for anyone with PowerDVD, can you tell me what card and driver version you are using? Thanks.

dufflover

04-22-08, 02:00 AM

(Still trying to find the best combo of drivers and Cyberlink codec to use)

Looked at the Reg Tweaks page and searches involving Catalyst, and can't find anything in the changelog of the reg tweaks referring to recent specific CCC versions. So now I'm wondering, for an HD2400, what is best CCC version to use? (like in terms of reg hacks and stuff to force Hi def stuff which is the main flaw in the 2400s)

Cos atm, I've tried 8.2 and 8.4 and both have the strange property of having Hardware acceleration (the GPU is under load), but the load doesn't change between de-interlacing methods (all around the same +/- 10% which seems normal variation even if you didn't change method). BUT, the CCC option is working cos Weave option clearly does do Weave (again, not much less GPU use!). Still not sure I can pick Bob vs Vector Adaptive, but the DXVA program shows when Vector is forced, it does go up to 1920x1080 (in DXVA program). Still, can't really confirm it is doing Vector (esp. when GPU load doesn't show it), which is why I'm always seeing if there are test videos which will expose flaws in Bob de-interlacing.

In short, WTF :confused:

Vassag0

04-22-08, 04:59 AM

Hello, I have a terrible headache with my HD2600PRO.

I live in zone PAL and the DVDs are to 50hz, for what I have formed to 720p/50hz. I have it connected to my plasma by means of HDMI.

When I reproduce DVD with the WinDVD initially everything is correct, but as it advances begins jumps give the image, skipping frames, lost sound/video synchronization...

When I try to reproduce BD with the WinDVD the image jumps, blinks. Now with the version 8.3 it can see the BD in the PowerDVD correctly, but the same thing happens to me that with the DVDs, lost sound/video synchronization.

Can anyone help me?

Thank you in advance for any input that can help solve the problem.

arfster

04-22-08, 07:18 AM

Cos atm, I've tried 8.2 and 8.4 and both have the strange property of having Hardware acceleration (the GPU is under load), but the load doesn't change between de-interlacing methods (all around the same +/- 10% which seems normal variation even if you didn't change method).

Yeah, VA deinterlacing will send the GPU % through the roof on a 2400.

Are you back in XP? If so, what HD deinterlacing modes does dxva checker say is available? Sounds a bit like the driver doesn't support HD MA/VA.

dufflover

04-22-08, 07:23 AM

Went back to Catalyst 7.10 and at least this one is behaving a bit more realistically. With my luck with drivers atm I suppose I just have to put out a disclaimer that it might not be drivers :p

Played back the same ~30 seconds or so of an HDTV Recording and used RivaTuner to monitor the GPU load.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/953/hd2400xtdeinterlacingww1.gif

Yeah, VA deinterlacing will send the GPU % through the roof on a 2400.
Yep that's why I was so sure something wasn't right when I was trying 8.2/8.4. As with the pic everything seems to be in order in 7.10.

Are you back in XP? If so, what HD deinterlacing modes does dxva checker say is available? Sounds a bit like the driver doesn't support HD MA/VA.
Yep back on XP. Here's a DXVA Checker shot with these 7.10s; the top left is with it on auto, the bottom right is forced VA (as I mention it looked like this with the 8.4s too though)
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6661/dvxawith710is7.jpg

arfster

04-22-08, 08:11 AM

Yup, that looks better. DXVA Checker can tell you for sure though (if you play a video through it, will tell you what HA and deinterlacing modes it's currently using).

HT Slider

04-22-08, 09:05 AM

What are in your opinion the most important bugs you need to have fixed for perfect HTPC playback?

I totally agree with your list, but my #1 issue with our HD2600XT is how Vista Media Center often crashes when attempting to play digitally certain types of mpeg-2 used for HD Recorded TV.

I've been working with Microsoft on this one and they are still pointing to ATI saying there is a known bug causing this behaviour. My rudimentary understanding is DXVA doesn't initialize properly upon subsequent video playback requests. Unfortunately it only affects people with highly compressed, but higher quality mpeg-2 content (typically digitally captured from a satellite transmission - like we do).

What happens (with the 2600XT only, combined with certain hardware): Play a highly compressed HD show from Recorded TV, stop it and then play it or another HD recording again. There is a 50/50 chance Media Center will fail to get the card's DXVA up and running properly and will crash.

If you exit Media Center and restart it, it will always play the same HD content flawlessly the very first time.

Switching to Nvidia hardware, the problem goes away.

This same (or similar) glitch also makes it so some of Vista's 3D screen savers won't play while Media Center is running once Recorded TV has been played. Again, the DXVA initialization somehow fails to kick off properly.

I'm fairly sure Microsoft could work around the issue by doing something to reset the DXVA hooks after a "stop" (PowerDVD doesn't crash, Media Player doesn't crash, etc.), but it does sound like a bug with ATI that MS doesn't want to work around.

Strayshot

04-22-08, 09:06 AM

I played around with this some more, and here is what I have discovered (with cat 8.3 in XP):

1) I don't think the UseBT601CSC tweak works. Despite applying the UseBT601CSC tweak, SD is not expanding. Using the SD DVE patterns I definitely can see the btb line whether I set UseBT601CSC or not.

2) When playing HD material in PowerDVD, level expansion takes place (I cannot see the btb line in HD DVE), but you cannot correct it using the Avivo "Basic Color" controls. They appear to have no effect in PowerDVD. I tried this with VC1 and AVC material, using component and HDMI.

The only way I have found to make btb visible with PowerDVD is to bump up the brightness in PowerDVD's color controls to about +3. This is not ideal, however, because I think all this is doing is compressing 16-235 to something like 32-235 so that when catalyst subsequently expands it it goes back to 16-235. (This kind of compression/expansion will result in some loss of "color" resolution and could cause artifacts like banding.)

If the "Basic Color" controls are working for anyone with PowerDVD, can you tell me what card and driver version you are using? Thanks.

PDVD is not compressing when you do this. I believe the reason the AVIVO controls do not affect PDVD is because they are using their own semi-custom renderer. I checked this out a long time ago using some grey steps and Paint.NET to check values. Doing these adjustments does in fact bring the values back to 16 and 235. And the BTSC hack does work. If you don;t use the BTSC hack, you can still do the proper adjustments to see BtB and WtW, the point of the hack is to make the SD colorspace behave the same as the HD colorspace so you don;t have to have two different settings for SD and HD material.

dufflover

04-22-08, 11:22 AM

Something which I've always had on my HTPC has been very poor "red" performance. On anything with lots of remotely red spectrum, it blocks, bleeds and well, looks crap. I think the technical names are (I'm a n00b in this area): Macro-bleeding, Color bleeding, and over-modulation. I referred to this article anyway.
http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Articles/VideoArtefacts/VideoArtefacts.html

Here are a couple of screen captures of the Miss USA Pageant :D showing you what I'm seeing:
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/5182/missusaswimsuitlegskh6.th.jpg (http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=missusaswimsuitlegskh6.jpg) <-- look at the pink blocking on the legs
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7669/missusaheadju3.th.jpg (http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=missusaheadju3.jpg) <-- blocks on the forehead, and compare the space to the right and left of his head

Struggling to remember exactly, but I almost got this working perfectly with a 2400pro, but the card just wasn't quite fast enough. A 2400xt should be fine.

I can finally refer back to your post and say, "almost fine" :o . Finally got it all together again; working VA, Powerstrip for 1080i/50Hz, etc. With the same "Before the Game" (Aus HDTV show) HD test video as I used before, it's pretty unwatchable (with VA) ... until just for the sake of this test I put on an overclock and it actually became watchable with only a few drops here and there; worth trying more anyway and testing for OC stability, hopefully can keep it, lol.
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8239/ocdwindowzc9.th.jpg (http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8239/ocdwindowzc9.jpg)
The 4 GPU bumps:
1. Stock (700/700) windowed
2. Stock full screen
3. OC (760/850) windowed
4. OC full screen

Windowed size is the what you see in the screenie. Now despite how it looks on the load graph, OC'd Full Screen is actually very watchable! (much more so than both stock tests)

HT Slider

04-22-08, 11:49 AM

All I can say is "boy am I glad I didn't buy an HD 2400Pro or HD 2400XT!".

I can't believe ATI is still selling the 2400 and claiming they are HD capable cards. That is ridiculous.

Although my 2600XT sometimes crashes when trying to initiate DXVA (with Vista Media Center only), once content it playing, absolutely everything plays back flawlessly. It doesn't matter if the content is 1080i, 1080p, 720p, mpeg-2, mpeg-2 inside a dvr-ms file, VC-1, mpeg-4, Blue-ray (PDVD), HD-DVD (PDVD), etc.

Also, the image quality problem you are seeing with the reds is absolutely not there at all and hasn't been there since Catalyst 7.12 or 8.1 (somewhere around there) with the 2600XT.

Now with Catalyst 8.4, the image quality is excellent, even without the TRDenoise=0 setting and without UseBT601 set. I've also enabled the noise filter at 50% and enabled the contrast enhancement by 10% and found these settings improve SD content and don't seem to affect HD at all (not to my eyes anyway).

I do have the color enhancement and flesh color enhancement turned down to 0 and disabled.

BTW, one change I did make that I found improved the image quality considerably was to disable the noise filters for the PVR-250 video card. Once I did this, the excessive noise filtration problem with the video card went away (with recent drivers, not older ones though). On top of that, using only the ATI noise filters, the image is considerably better than when I had the PVR-250 noise filters enabled and TRDenoise disabled in the registry. Those of you still using TRDenoise should try disabling all other noise filters (with the TV Tuner/Capture card) and try leaving the ATI filters at default settings - you might like what you see.

sigma957

04-22-08, 12:15 PM

PDVD is not compressing when you do this. I believe the reason the AVIVO controls do not affect PDVD is because they are using their own semi-custom renderer. I checked this out a long time ago using some grey steps and Paint.NET to check values. Doing these adjustments does in fact bring the values back to 16 and 235.So you're saying that it's safe to use the PowerDVD color controls without affecting the image quality? I got the impression from the PDVD thread that it was best to leave all the PDVD controls at 0.

Strayshot

04-22-08, 02:42 PM

So you're saying that it's safe to use the PowerDVD color controls without affecting the image quality? I got the impression from the PDVD thread that it was best to leave all the PDVD controls at 0.

The general rule of thumb has always been to leave source settings at default and adjust the display device, but sometimes you have to mess with the source controls. I would suggest downloading Paint.NET and doing osome experimenting. That way, if I did something wrong you can correct me :P

ConradWS

04-22-08, 10:13 PM

Guys,

I have a friendly contact at DriverHeaven. They say that after their article ATI and NVidia are now working to improve their drivers for HTPC playback. I've asked if I could collect a list of bugs for them to forward to ATI and NVidia and they told me to do just that....(snip)...

What are in your opinion the most important bugs you need to have fixed for perfect HTPC playback?

VisionTek ATI HD2600XT agp. WinXP
They probably don't care about agp but some problems are the same with the PCIe versions...anyway...

1) Compatibility with Arcsoft TMT. Currently I get a few seconds of playback then blackscreens and crashes.
2) HDCP issues
3) Backup for saved profiles.
4) Ability to change pop-up to hardware acceleration usage when hovering mouse pointer over tray icon.
5) Improved VPU recover.
6) More helpful popup descriptions when hovering mouse over items in CCC.
7) Better scaling options including Horizontal/Vertical positioning adjustments for secondary display.
8) Ability to set separate resolutions on displays in Clone Mode.
9) Better skins with less overhead
10) Simple right click menu option to move programs to Extended Desktop display without having to drag.
11) Inclusion of a few simple test patterns for quickly calibrating displays
12) Utility in CCC for globally or individually changing hardware acceleration for different apps.

etc.....

Later, Conrad

dufflover

04-22-08, 10:51 PM

Also, the image quality problem you are seeing with the reds is absolutely not there at all and hasn't been there since Catalyst 7.12 or 8.1 (somewhere around there) with the 2600XT.

Just doing a lot of "Standy tests" atm; not related to the graphics card specifically. Wanting to make sure the ATI drivers and Powerstrip especially are playing nice cos I've still gotten the occasional failure to boot/wake up.
Doesn't help with many different installs and uninstalls hey :rolleyes:.

But then going to look back thru the thread to get those various noise/skintone reg tweaks cos atm I've seen nothing in the way of adjusting them in CCC. I want to do it this way cos I've finally got the de-interlacing "working" and don't want to end up breaking it with a Catalyst update. Not to mention driver update = Powerstrip goes even more unpredictable!
Looking for some early feedback as to whether I'll be wasting my time after I finish my standby/suspend testing. :p

bclare

04-22-08, 11:10 PM

regarding powerstrip and the latest cat versions:

I have had several problems with my tuner card and bsod caused by powerstrip. The solution was to install the latest powerstrip version AND delete the pstrip.ini.
To do this, close powerstrip, delete pstrip.ini, start powerstrip again, answer no and then copy all your custom resolution/application settings etc from a backup of pstrip.ini

Hope that helps with your problems, as it fixed mine

spaceman99

04-23-08, 06:03 AM

Sorry if this has been covered in depth before, I've looked through the thread but can't find any concise answers...

I'm having problems with telecine judder when watching 24fps material at 50hz and 60hz refresh output. When I try setting CCC to output 24hz (my Samsung LCD is supposed to support this - it's an LE46F86BD which is the PAL version native 50hz refresh I think), it plays much smoother - apart from about once every 40 - 50 seconds, there are strange things happening for a few seconds (extreme judder, tearing at the bottom of the screen) before going back to smooth again.

Is this the difference between the tv expecting 24hz and the film playback being 23.976fps?
Do I need to use PowerStrip and/or Reclock? and if so, what settings? Would this break DXVA playback?
I have an Sapphire AGP HD 2600XT running on XP sp2 and the effect is noticed when using PowerDVD or MPC-HC. Have just moved to Cat. 8.4 hotfix, but had the same problem on Cat. 8.3 hotfix also.

Is this a driver issue that ATI may (or may not) fix in the future?

Any help appreciated.. it's driving me mad.

dufflover

04-23-08, 08:35 AM

I do have the color enhancement and flesh color enhancement turned down to 0 and disabled.

OK I've since added those extra regkeys which weren't part of the original script for the HD2400; so TrDenoise, Colour Vibrance, and Flesh tone, setting them to 0 (the same settings as when added for the HD2600), and got the two sliders in CCC Advanced Colour (nothing about Denoise though). Had a bit of a muck around and have left Colour Vibrance disabled and set Flesh tone correction to 35; seems to have done the job very nicely.
Before -> After
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/1350/headpo9.th.jpg (http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=headpo9.jpg) http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9521/headafter2xj7.th.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=headafter2xj7.jpg)
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7417/legsxj1.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=legsxj1.jpg) http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/5872/legsafterhw4.th.jpg (http://img444.imageshack.us/my.php?image=legsafterhw4.jpg)

I'm having problems with telecine judder when watching 24fps material at 50hz and 60hz refresh output.

As people can gather from my previous posts I'm no HTPC expert, but isn't this what the Pulldown option is all about? (24Hz source to 60Hz playback)

spaceman99

04-23-08, 10:08 AM

As people can gather from my previous posts I'm no HTPC expert, but isn't this what the Pulldown option is all about? (24Hz source to 60Hz playback)

I've tried ticking/unticking that in CCC, it doesn't seem to make any difference to the judder at 24hz, 50hz or 60hz. I have a feeling the TV will handle the pulldown similarly if the gfx card/AVIVO doesn't handle it. The problem with the pulldown inverse telecine stuff, is that it still has to repeat certain frames which is what I think causes the judder. The only way to make it completely smooth is to have the TV refreshing at 24hz or a multiple of 24.
I maybe wrong.

somedude22

04-23-08, 10:53 AM

Maier2505

04-23-08, 01:20 PM

Asked for a Buglist of the 2600pro under vista/EVR...

I have some very nasty issue, which is very common, if you look to some of the forums...

I am in Germany looking PremiereHD.

In general everything is 100% with SD and HD TV content.

It is running smooth with good picture quality.

But as soon you are looking soccer on premiere HD and using Hardware deinterlacing, after some minutes the video starts to flicker, juddr, what ever you wanna name it.

It seems, that the deinterlacer is struggling. That last for some seconds, then it is away for a time, coming back regularily.

I have a dual boot system an with XP/ overlay this problems does not occure.

I use cyberlink PDVD 7.0 Deluxe and 8.0 deluxe, no difference...

Best regards

maier2505

cpalcott

04-23-08, 02:08 PM

I've read through this whole thread, but have yet to find a definitive answer to this question.

I am currently running a Sapphire 2600XT in dual display mode through Ultramon (VGA-800x600, Component-1920x1080i) with driver version 7.7 (with Arftser/ExDeus reg tweaks) and Vista 32/SP1.

The problem is, I am getting some jittery playback of HD .ts files and some tearing on streaming video. Blu-ray in PDVD seems to play fine.

Is their any advantage to upgrading the drivers to 8.4? Or do I need to stay with the 7.7 drivers if I hope to keep HA? Is their any benefit to upgrading the card itself? If so, what is the sweet spot? Sounds like 3450 may not be quite enough, what about 3470? Is the 38XX series the only one taht will work with dual display and HA? What combination of card and drivers is going to get me stable HD playback (Blu-ray, H.264, Mpeg2, etc)

Specs:
MB – GIGABYTE GA-965P-DS3
CPU – e4300 (@ 3.0 GHZ)
RAM – A-DATA 2GB DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) ADQVE1A16K
VID: Sapphire 2600XT
SOUND: Auzentech X-Meridian

Any help would be greatly appeciated!

Maier2505

04-24-08, 05:32 AM

memes_be

04-24-08, 06:19 AM

Yup, that looks better. DXVA Checker can tell you for sure though (if you play a video through it, will tell you what HA and deinterlacing modes it's currently using).

Hi !

I try to run Dxvachecker but it immediatly crashes (dxvachecker stopped to work) under vista (I ran it in another PC under XP and it worked). Has anybody had that problem ?
Thanks

Rew452

04-24-08, 01:00 PM

nathan118

04-25-08, 07:47 PM

Just a heads up. I had to reinstall vista because my HTPC hard drive died, and I decided to install the latest 8.4 catalyst drivers and avivo. When I tried to use hardware acceleration to deinterlace 1080i mpeg2 material, the gpu usage never went over 10%, and most of the time registered around 1-3%. I could tell it wasn't deinterlacing properly.

Went back and downloaded the 7.10 drivers I had been using, did the exact same setup and install as I had done with the newest drivers, and the GPU usage went back up to 30-40% like it should, and the deinterlacing was perfect.

Something is screwy with 8.4 catalyst or the avivo package.

arfster

04-25-08, 07:56 PM

Just a heads up. I had to reinstall vista because my HTPC hard drive died, and I decided to install the latest 8.4 catalyst drivers and avivo. When I tried to use hardware acceleration to deinterlace 1080i mpeg2 material, the gpu usage never went over 10%, and most of the time registered around 1-3%. I could tell it wasn't deinterlacing properly.

Did you cvheck to see what decoder was in use? (dxva checker useful for forcing one particular one!).

When I tried Vista 8.4, it had no problem with deinterlacing - auto selected VA as usual.

blun7

04-25-08, 09:49 PM

So I got a dell desktop computer and paid more for the 2400 to make sure I could playback x264 smoothly.

I have powerdvd and I'm using its codec in media portal which allows for hardware acceleration. With hardware acceleration enabled i see a puny 5% (total, the sum of both cores) decrease in cpu usage and 1080p x264 video is choppy.

I was expecting the 2400 to offload a substantial portion of the decoding work but that is not the case. Could there be something wrong with my config, is my experience the norm?

The worst thing about this situation is I can't put a more powerful video card in the computer because it has a weak powersupply. Argh!!!!

arfster

04-25-08, 09:54 PM

So I got a dell desktop computer and paid more for the 2400 to make sure I could playback x264 smoothly.

I have powerdvd and I'm using its codec in media portal which allows for hardware acceleration. With hardware acceleration enabled i see a puny 5% (total, the sum of both cores) decrease in cpu usage and 1080p x264 video is choppy.

It's clearly not working, so probably media portal is failing to initialise it and switching to another codec. Try using MPC-HC and forcing it to use the cyberlink codec, and see what CPU figures you get.

By teh way, another issue you will probably run into is that many x264 encodes off the net break the h264 4.1 standards, and thus don't accelerate (720p and newer 1080p ones are often OK, but not 1080p ones that are >3 months). However, generally when pdvd fails to accelerate it just blackscreens.

nathan118

04-26-08, 02:00 AM

Did you cvheck to see what decoder was in use? (dxva checker useful for forcing one particular one!).

When I tried Vista 8.4, it had no problem with deinterlacing - auto selected VA as usual.

According to graph edit it was using the ati mpeg decoder. Is that not as reliable as dxva checker?

Today I was messing with a recording of the office, and for some reason that one episode would not hardware accelerate, but every other episode I have does. That's with 7.10, so now I'm wondering if I was only trying that episode last night with 8.4. Who knows. If other people are getting 8.4 to work then just ignore me. :)

memes_be

04-26-08, 06:04 AM

It's clearly not working, so probably media portal is failing to initialise it and switching to another codec. Try using MPC-HC and forcing it to use the cyberlink codec, and see what CPU figures you get.

By teh way, another issue you will probably run into is that many x264 encodes off the net break the h264 4.1 standards, and thus don't accelerate (720p and newer 1080p ones are often OK, but not 1080p ones that are >3 months). However, generally when pdvd fails to accelerate it just blackscreens.

@Arfster. I have old 720p and 1080i mkv's that doesn't accelerate, so I can't read them as smoothly as latest standards ones (amd 3200+ processor too slow). Is there a way to read them with HA without reencoding them completely ?
Thanks a lot

arfster

04-26-08, 08:26 AM

According to graph edit it was using the ati mpeg decoder. Is that not as reliable as dxva checker?

Hrrrm, if that is what mediaportal is actually using (any way to check in real time w/ mediaportal, properties box or whatever?), it should really be fine - the ati decoder is quite well behaved w/ deinterlacing normally.

Using dual monitors by any chance?

arfster

04-26-08, 08:30 AM

@Arfster. I have old 720p and 1080i mkv's that doesn't accelerate, so I can't read them as smoothly as latest standards ones (amd 3200+ processor too slow). Is there a way to read them with HA without reencoding them completely ?
Thanks a lot

720 ones: you can fix almost all of them with IDC Changer and they will accelerate with the PDVD decoder. Or just use MPC-HC's internal decoder (you can get it separate from mpc-hc too), it doesn't need IDC-changed. This is a separate bug to the main one though. A very few 720 files can't be fixed, but that's really rare - at this resolution they need to use a stupidly large number of ref frames to be incompatible with dxva.

1080p: there is no fix - the number of ref frames is completely integral to the structure of the encoded file.

subcell

04-26-08, 10:23 AM

Hardware:

AMD Dual X2 4600+ 2.4Ghz
3 Gigabytes of RAM
Radeon 2600 HD512Mb (PCIe)

HDCP:

DVI to HDMI 1.1 connection (Sharp 1080p LCD)

Softwares:

Vista Ultimate 32-bit, CoreAVC Pro, FFdshow 2008

Voilà!

grubi

04-26-08, 11:29 AM

Another one for the list:

Enabling denoise introduces ghosting.
There should be decent denoising without introducing such artifacts.
IMHO Catalyst 7.11 is much better than 8.3 here.

grubi.

Mine82

04-26-08, 12:31 PM

I think De-noise is way to aggressive thus introducing artifacts to be of any use.

HT Slider

04-26-08, 02:05 PM

I think De-noise is way to aggressive thus introducing artifacts to be of any use.

The overly aggressive denoise issue is a function of the source video.

If I bring in a digital mpeg-2 transport stream, untouched, using the R5000HD USB port on our ExpressVu STB, the denoise capability of the ATI HD2600XT is fantastic. It truly improves the image quality by an enormous amount. Turning it on and off, you can really see how it cleans up the image and removes the very noticeable mpeg-2 compression artifacts. With denoise off, the image is "blocky" and full of noticeable flaws. With denoise on, the image looks great and although slightly softer, it still includes all of the image detail.

On the other hand, if my STB takes the mpeg-2 stream, decodes it, denoises it to get rid of the mpeg-2 compression artifacts, outputs it through the s-video port, the Hauppauge PVR-250 then captures it, does all of its own default denoise processing on it, and then it re-encodes it to mpeg-2 and then finally I play that back using the HD 2600XT, ATI's denoise is too much and the image ends up with ghosts and all sorts of junk in it.

Due to an audio bug in VMC, we are forced to get a lot of our SD content through the PVR-250 so I wanted to find a way to be able to play content captured with the PVR-250 and leave ATI's denoise on.

What I found was the PVR-250's denoise is controlled by registry settings:

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Globesp an\Parameters\ivac15\Driver]
"FltDnrMode"
"FltDnrSpatFltLevel"
"FltDnrTempFltLevel"

I changed these to:

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Globesp an\Parameters\ivac15\Driver]
"FltDnrMode"=dword:00000000
"FltDnrSpatFltLevel"=dword:00000000
"FltDnrTempFltLevel"=dword:00000000

and all future recordings didn't have the problems with "ghosts". There is still a little too much denoise done to work perfectly with the ATI denoise cranked up (the raw mpeg-2 transport stream plays back the best with ATI's default settings), but this is the best compromise I have found.

I've also done some back to back tests, comparing ATI's denoise to the Hauppauge denoise and the image quality is actually better with the ATI's denoise on and the PVR-250's denoise off. If I turn off the ATI denoise and leave the PVR-250 denoise on (as most of you do), there are a greater number of compression artifacts visible and at the same time the image is missing detail.

BTW, the PVR-250 registry settings also include controls for edge enhancement and by default they are on. I played with these and at the time left the edge enhancement set to default but turned off ATI's edge enhancement. With the latest drivers including a slider for edge enhancement, I suspect the best approach would be to turn off the PVR-250's edge enhancement and use "just a little" of the ATIs.

nathan118

04-26-08, 02:17 PM

Hrrrm, if that is what mediaportal is actually using (any way to check in real time w/ mediaportal, properties box or whatever?), it should really be fine - the ati decoder is quite well behaved w/ deinterlacing normally.

Using dual monitors by any chance?

No dual monitors, but I'm using vista media center (vmcd and deccheck to force use of the ati decoder in media center). But I did my tests outside of media center also.

Sorry, but I'm too lazy to put 8.4 back on and check it, haha.

HT Slider

04-26-08, 02:19 PM

Another one for the list:

Enabling denoise introduces ghosting.
There should be decent denoising without introducing such artifacts.
IMHO Catalyst 7.11 is much better than 8.3 here.

grubi.

BTW, taking a raw mpeg-2 transport stream and playing it using ATI's default DXVA denoise, 8.3/8.4 does a much better job on denoise than 7.11 did. Also, with the sliders available in 8.3/8.4, we can fine tune how much denoise is performed (although I don't think the denoise truly turns off unless TRDenoise is set to 0 in the registry).

If you try to imagine the mathematics behind these denoise algorithms, it is fairly easy to imagine that when you add up multiple denoise processes being run on the same video, that eventually it will start screwing up the image.

You'll probably find there is some denoise type processing in the original digital compression performed by your cable company (or whoever compressed it), then more performed by the STB, then losses in the analog conversion, then more denoise in the video capture and mpeg-2 re-compression (done by your capture card), followed by even more done by the ATI video card. If you consider the configuration where you use the TV Tuner in the PC, there are still multiple sets of denoise algorithms run on all the video.

ATI has their denoise set by default to just about right for the mpeg-2 found on a typical DVD and it is just about impossible for them to get it right for every other video source.

What ATI needs IMO, is additional and easier to use denoise control. I also feel that their default should be less, but you have to understand from their position they are trying to ensure they pass HQV DVD denoise tests. They need a lot of denoise in order to provide the best image quality from DVD and other compressed sources.

Maybe ATI could develop some way of analyzing the video being played and try to figure out how much denoise processing has already been done and then tune their own filters accordingly?

HT Slider

04-26-08, 02:49 PM

One more BTW...

You'll also find controls for brightness and contrast in the registry for your TV tuner card. For the PVR-250, they are found in the same path as the PVR-250 denoise controls.

If you find grey levels are inconsistent between DVD playback and content recorded through your TV tuner, you can fine tune the TV tuner so the grey levels match DVD levels.

In my case, the PVR-250 captured content brightness was a little to high vs DVD.

memes_be

04-26-08, 04:05 PM

720 ones: you can fix almost all of them with IDC Changer and they will accelerate with the PDVD decoder. Or just use MPC-HC's internal decoder (you can get it separate from mpc-hc too), it doesn't need IDC-changed. This is a separate bug to the main one though. A very few 720 files can't be fixed, but that's really rare - at this resolution they need to use a stupidly large number of ref frames to be incompatible with dxva.

1080p: there is no fix - the number of ref frames is completely integral to the structure of the encoded file.
Thanks Arfster, yes, I read them with mpc-hc, but it seems there are again some of recent mkv's encoded at 720p (the last one I had is The Bourne Ultimatum) wich cannot be accelerated even with mpc-hc internal decoder. Is there then nothing to do but reencode them completely in a standard format ?

arfster

04-26-08, 04:13 PM

Thanks Arfster, yes, I read them with mpc-hc, but it seems there are again some of recent mkv's encoded at 720p (the last one I had is The Bourne Ultimatum) wich cannot be accelerated even with mpc-hc internal decoder. Is there then nothing to do but reencode them completely in a standard format ?

Seems so - pretty odd for recent 720p files to be incompatible though. Are they anime by any chance?

mgl

04-26-08, 06:01 PM

Is there any chance to get the denoise silder in Xp ? Or has someone the regkey for adjusting the denoise-level in xp?

Mine82

04-27-08, 11:26 AM

The overly aggressive denoise issue is a function of the source video.

That's exactly why the slider should comprise a wider range, starting from a very light denoise for sources with the worst quality like analog tv for instance.
DVDs and better don't need denoising anyway if you're not extremely close to the display usually.

swallman

04-27-08, 04:17 PM

I have a new VisionTek 2400 HD PCI (not -E) card I just installed to replace my on-board video card in my old Dell.

Trying to get HW acceleration to work. Don't have a HD DVD or BR drive, just downloading sample H.264 videos.

So far no luck. PC CPU is at 100%. How do I check the card GPU % ?

Have tried Media Player Classic Home Cinema edition and Nero as well. Any suggestions ? Are there any "guaranteed" sample videos I could try to make sure the ones I'm testing are encoded correctly ?

My specs are:

XP Pro SP2
P4 2.0 GHz
1.5 GB RAM

Thanks in advance.

Baldone01

04-27-08, 04:57 PM

RussKingUK

04-28-08, 01:54 AM

Hi there,

Does anybody know if there is any way to configure the mpc-hc decoder to be the preffered decoder whilst having it kick back to CoreAVC if mpc-hc can't establish a dxva connection? mpc-hc does a great job when it is used on a compatible video file but struggles badly if it can't establish a hardware accelerated connection.

Cheers,

Russ.

memes_be

04-28-08, 04:27 AM

Seems so - pretty odd for recent 720p files to be incompatible though. Are they anime by any chance?

What do you mean by "anime" (sorry I am french) ? All I can say is I can read them with mpc-hc with many "little stops" as my cpu (amd 3200+) is at 100% so no HA. Another thing, I have also that with some hd divx at 720p, we speak a lot of hd mkv's and hd mpeg2 but I can't have HA with hd divx movies (avi container) neighter. Is that possible with my 2400 pro ?

Dee_NA

04-28-08, 10:06 AM

memes_be

04-28-08, 11:35 AM

Hi,

I have an htpc very slim (Acer L200) and have put a pcie Ati 2400 pro to improve performances for HD, but it is a low profile and fanless gc as I have no space to put a full size. But this card doesn't satisfy me so much, to much manipulations to have HA and no HA at all for mpg2 hd files for example. I have heard the 34xx gc works better and easier, but the only model I know compatible with my htpc is the 3450 wich exists fanless and low-profiled. Has anybody this model and does it give easily full HA for all hd files ? Or does anybody know another gc low-profiled (not sure it has to be fanless for space but maybe for power needed) with equal or better performance FOR HD abilities (I am not a gamer).

Any comments greatly appreciated.

arfster

04-28-08, 11:49 AM

What do you mean by "anime" (sorry I am french) ? All I can say is I can read them with mpc-hc with many "little stops" as my cpu (amd 3200+) is at 100% so no HA. Another thing, I have also that with some hd divx at 720p, we speak a lot of hd mkv's and hd mpeg2 but I can't have HA with hd divx movies (avi container) neighter. Is that possible with my 2400 pro ?

I don't think so, but might be wrong - never tried accelerating divx.

Anime is just animated stuff/cartoons. Apparently these encode slightly differently, cos it's efficient for them to use large numbers of ref frames, and thus could break the limits.

ExDeus

04-28-08, 05:07 PM

I was doin some browsing here recently and was wonderin what some of your thought are about what this site had to say about HA... http://www.deskshare.com/resources/articles/dmc_turnoffhardwareacceleration.aspx
Disabling hardware acceleration would completely defeat the purpose of having an HD2000/3000 card.

That site discusses speeding up 2D graphics (GDI, GDI+) for windows, menus, etc. It is something you can do if you have a very old or very weak graphics card (the screenshot on the page you referenced shows an integrated GeForce2). This does not apply to the situation here, where we are using powerful cards specifically for their DXVA capabilities (using video overlay or 3D graphics, not 2D).

Disabling acceleration in Windows would allow your CPU to handle the graphics in lieu of your graphics card, but it would also disable access to all the acceleration features of your card, including DXVA.

That article is poorly titled, because "Turn Off Hardware Acceleration to Improve Video Quality" isn't really what you're doing there. You're disabling access to features on a weak video card to prevent them from being used (because the card isn't powerful enough for them to work correctly), but if you have a video card that does good hardware decoding, scaling, deinterlacing, etc, then you're actually reducing video quality by disabling access to those features.

bobbyrr

04-28-08, 07:07 PM

I've run through all the basic troubleshooting with ATI support and they've now told me to come to the forums to find a solution...

The problem:

Over the HDMI connection:

1) Colours appear washed out, or overly bright.
2) Text is difficult to read/ annoying/ blinding after long use.

Here's the story:

I've had this problem since December when I bought a new Westinghouse L2410NM 24" monitor:

http://www.westinghousedigital.com/details.aspx?itemnum=105

The monitor has both HDMI and DSUB connections, and I noticed that the DSUB looked strikingly better at reproducing colours and also made fine text much more readable when hooked up to my HD2600XT.

Interestingly, the same problem occurred with a Nvidia 8400GS i also had around. (The HDMI connection had the exact same poor image quality as the hd2600xt). However, I was able to fix this using the following driver hack:

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=58483&view=findpost&p=330319

Which involved editing an .inf file before installing the Forceware drivers.

Finally the Nvidia 8400GS was displaying perfect image quality over HDMI, unfortunately, my more expensive HD2600XT is still not capable of giving me good HDMI image quality.

Can anyone offer a suggestion how I might modify the Catalyst drivers to get my HDMI quality on par with my Nvidia card, or even the DSUB from the same card?

I have uploaded a full size demonstration of the difference between the HDMI image quality vs the DSUB image quality here:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CXNIHYOS

Smaller versions can be found below

Take notice to:

1) How the colours change within the different lands on the map.

2) How the black text on the left side is much easier to read on the DSUB picture.

I've also found another person who is having the exact same issue with this same combo of video card and monitor:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13142644#post13142644

DSUB
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/1928/dsubsmallkj3.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsubsmallkj3.jpg)

HDMI
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1709/hdmismallsy3.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hdmismallsy3.jpg)

clicq

04-28-08, 10:21 PM

bobbyrr

04-28-08, 11:28 PM

I had a somewhat similar problem, though it was with an actual HDTV and not a monitor (the text was overly sharpened and not very readable). I fixed it by using Powerstrip and choosing one of their custom resolutions, which fixed the text problem, though I didn't have the color problem you're having.

Thank you for the suggestions. I already had powerstrip installed, and following your instructions I tried all available predefined 1920x1200 resolutions. None of them fixed the poor quality over HDMI, and a few of them made my monitor show no signal over HDMI but all worked just fine over dsub.

memes_be

04-29-08, 06:00 AM

I don't think so, but might be wrong - never tried accelerating divx.

Anime is just animated stuff/cartoons. Apparently these encode slightly differently, cos it's efficient for them to use large numbers of ref frames, and thus could break the limits.

No, none of them were anime, the last one I couldn't read accelerated is "The Bourne Ultimatum" (12/2007), so it seems it still happens not so rarely (for me 30% more or less)...Anyway, I have the 70% others...better than nothing with my small amd 3200+, it helps me to wait until prices of new htpc with BDR(W) are shutting down to upgrade.

jong1

04-29-08, 09:13 AM

There has been a discussion raging over the last week in the "Review: AVIVO HD vs Purevideo HD" thread and, for some reason(!) the "NVidia users: List the most important HTPC driver bugs" thread about whether ATI cards/drivers can output YCbCr and at what levels.

I believe we have reached conclusion, at least a logical consistency, that could do with some further verification!

It has been suggested I bring those following this thread in on the act.

If you are interested see here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13752310#post13752310

p.s. there is mention of this also happening with a 2600. I cannot verify this and I know it comes with a different dongle to the 3xxx series. However, it certainly seems to happen with my (and another poster's) 3850.

oilisgold

04-29-08, 06:40 PM

I am having an issue with the drivers for the Radeon 2600 XT. I have the following setup:

- Radeon 2600 XT 256 MB.
- Westinghouse L2410NM native 1920x1200 resolution. Available inputs are HDMI, VGA, component, composite.
- Dell Inspiron 530 dual-boot XP Pro and Vista Ultimate. Connected to the Westinghouse via DVI-HDMI adapter.

I got the Inspiron from the factory and the max resolution available to me out of the box was 1600x1200, so I wanted to update the drivers to get to 1920x1200. At a resolution of 1600x1200, colors appear natural and normal. All I needed was more resolution. I am connected via the DVI-HDMI adapter.

When I updated the graphics drivers, it gave me the option for 1920x1200 (good) but at that resolution the colors are too bright/sharp (bad). I know it is not the monitor, because it displays my PS3 content (over HDMI) perfectly. And I know it is not a certain version of Windows because it happens in both XP and Vista.

Changing brightness/contrast, either in the monitor menu options or in XP/Vista settings, does not do anything. I have tried uninstalling and re-installing the drivers, but that does not do it either. I have tried third-party Omega drivers with no luck.

I have uninstalled and reinstaller the drivers, as well as XP itself. Every time I uninstall the drivers, the colors look great, but I can only go up to 1600x1200, and I need 1920x1200.

I then tried the DVI-VGA adapter that came with the Dell, and that works perfectly at 1920x1200. Colors are as natural and normal as they are at 1600x1200 resolution via DVI-HDMI.

Based on what I have read, it is the drivers, but identifying the problem is only half of it. Does anyone know any old driver versions that fully work with the DVI-HDMI connector? It could also be an HDCP issue, but I am not sure how to fix it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. It took me about five hours to get it to work, and the "solution" was to use the DVI-VGA cable, which is not optimal.

Does anyone have any input? Another user is having the same issue. I have been using the DVI to VGA adapter and it works fine, so I am just wondering why the HDMI connection is not performing properly.

originalsnuffy

04-29-08, 06:50 PM

With the 2400 and 2600, one must use the ATI adapter dongle.

Pagali

04-29-08, 07:10 PM

I'm using a Sapphire HD2600XT card with Catalyst 8.4 (which finally lets me set up an optimized 1080p profile!) No registry hacks, Windows XP SP2, Gigabyte P35 DS3L CTD MB, 2 GB memory, Everything seems to be working beautifully, except... (This problem also happened with 8.3, btw...) Every couple of days, while playing a DVD or video with ZoomPlayer/FFDShow, a dialog box appears on the screen that says:

"Catalyst Control Center: Host application has encountered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for the inconvenience."

Followed by the usual 'you may lose data...' 'Do you want to report...' stuff.

Strangely, if I just click on OK it goes away and my video, which never stopped playing, continues happily. There was one time that the computer froze however, needed a hard restart to get back in operation. Naturally, I was showing a movie to company. LOL!

Any clues what might be causing this? What other information would be helpful?

clicq

04-29-08, 07:41 PM

Thank you for the suggestions. I already had powerstrip installed, and following your instructions I tried all available predefined 1920x1200 resolutions. None of them fixed the poor quality over HDMI, and a few of them made my monitor show no signal over HDMI but all worked just fine over dsub.

Are you using the ATI DVI-HDMI adapter, or another kind?

I actually found that using a non-ATI DVI-HDMI adapter provided better quality on my HDTV, so it may work better for you too. It seems that the drivers do something different when the ATI adapter is used (on my TV, text looks MUCH better with the non-ATI adapter).

On my machine and TV:
ATI adapter (http://picasaweb.google.com/artitj/Tmp/photo#5194819620634767874)
Generic adapter (http://picasaweb.google.com/artitj/Tmp/photo#5194819650699538962)

clicq

04-29-08, 07:44 PM

I'm using a Sapphire HD2600XT card with Catalyst 8.4 (which finally lets me set up an optimized 1080p profile!) No registry hacks, Windows XP SP2, Gigabyte P35 DS3L CTD MB, 2 GB memory, Everything seems to be working beautifully, except... (This problem also happened with 8.3, btw...) Every couple of days, while playing a DVD or video with ZoomPlayer/FFDShow, a dialog box appears on the screen that says:

"Catalyst Control Center: Host application has encountered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for the inconvenience."

Any clues what might be causing this? What other information would be helpful?

No idea what's causing it, but if it makes you feel any better, it happens on my computer too (Vista x64 SP1, 4GB RAM, Abit IP35-E). I haven't had it crash my machine yet, though.

bobbyrr

04-29-08, 07:47 PM

Are you using the ATI DVI-HDMI adapter, or another kind?

I actually found that using a non-ATI DVI-HDMI adapter provided better quality on my HDTV, so it may work better for you too. It seems that the drivers do something different when the ATI adapter is used (on my TV, text looks MUCH better with the non-ATI adapter).

I'm using the ATI supplied adapter (black with "ATI RADEON GRAPHICS" and "REV. A" molded on it), and I don't have another one around to try.

Do you know where I can get the cheapest DVI-HDMI adapter to test this?

It's too bad because if this fixes the problem, I will not be able to send sound through the HDMI without the special ATI dongle.

clicq

04-29-08, 08:00 PM

millerbrad

04-29-08, 08:10 PM

I decided to give the 8.4 drivers a whirl. Unfortunately, for the life of me, I can't get the scaling options to work...

Luckily, the default 720p overscan settings fit my TV just fine. But, 1080p has too much overscan.

Any tips on getting scaling working withut using Powerstrip?

EDIT: Got it working by unchecking the Add 1080i30 and 1080p60 Formats to Display Manager (under HDTV Support in CCC)..

bobbyrr

04-29-08, 08:49 PM

I'm using the adapter from Monoprice (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10419&cs_id=1041902&p_id=2029&seq=1&format=2).

You can check my previous post for the difference I see between the adapters.

I guess I should also mention that my TV resolution is 1368x768 (common 720p LCD res). I don't think that'll make a difference, but be aware.

I found a cheaper one here (free shipping):

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1279

But it has more pins than that monoprice one. What effect does it have to have those extra pins in the middle of the DVI connection ?

clicq

04-29-08, 10:27 PM

I found a cheaper one here (free shipping):

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1279

But it has more pins than that monoprice one. What effect does it have to have those extra pins in the middle of the DVI connection ?

I think the only difference is whether it's dual link or single link, judging from the Wikipedia page on DVI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVI#Connector), so I imagine it would work.

As an aside, the ATI dongle/driver does seem to be doing funny stuff for HDTV use that is probably not ideal for computer monitor use, based on this other thread (http://www.theatertek.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9451&page=4)

Shoey Peachew

04-30-08, 06:12 AM

An FYI for anyone with a Visiontek HD2600 Pro agp version card and is thinking about replacing the loud vga heatsink / cooler with the Arctic Cooling Accelero S1 Rev. 2 (http://www.arctic-cooling.com/vga2.php?idx=147) as I was. It seems like it won't work without a mod as I found out from here (http://www.watchuonline.com/video/IP2lN7f5UeA/ati-visiontek-2600-pro-agp-hack-heatsink-accelero.html).

Does anyone know of a working alternative cooling solution for this card? The fan is too loud and there isn't a lot of info on the www. about the AGP version that I've been able to find.

Al Sherwood

04-30-08, 09:41 AM

My HD2600Pro looks to be acting up, after it gets warm it will not allow a system restart, if I let the PC remain off for about 15 minutes it will again boot without issue. I have tried the memory etc, but it keeps coming back to the card... anyway back to the reason for the post! :)

Since I don't want to be without a machine during the RMA process, I was going to buy a second card, but which one? the 2600Pro or 2600XT?

The XT will cost me $30 more then the HD... is it better?

BTW I don't really use the HTPC for gaming, mainly HD movies.

Thanks!

jong1

04-30-08, 09:49 AM

Now I'd get a 3450 or better a 3650 (depends on how much you trust that the 3450 will always be up to the job with later Blu-ray discs. It's capable of 1080p, but probably only just).

Al Sherwood

04-30-08, 10:08 AM

Now I'd get a 3450 or better a 3650 (depends on how much you trust that the 3450 will always be up to the job with later Blu-ray discs. It's capable of 1080p, but probably only just).

I see where you are going with this, but the 2600HD worked fine, I know there are better/faster cards out there, but are they really necessary? (all 512MB local prices)

HD2600HD $109
HD2600XT $139
HD3850 $199
HD3870 $299

arfster

04-30-08, 10:12 AM

Al Sherwood

04-30-08, 10:53 AM

The discs aren't going to get any harder to decode - the graphics limits for Bluray are already set in stone. What may get more complex is the interactive stuff, but that's nothing to do with the card.

that figures and makes sense, so what's your take, is the 2600XT worth the upgrade from the 2600HD or should I get the same card?

thanks!

jong1

04-30-08, 10:54 AM

I see where you are going with this, but the 2600HD worked fine, I know there are better/faster cards out there, but are they really necessary? (all 512MB local prices)

HD2600HD $109
HD2600XT $139
HD3850 $199
HD3870 $299But I did not recommend those.

HD3450: $68
HD3650: $109

They will relieve a lot of effort from the processor, for me that has meant my cpu cooler and case fans can slow down nicely. They arguably produce a better quality result, and run at lot cooler. Good for an HTPC.

The discs aren't going to get any harder to decode - the graphics limits for Bluray are already set in stone. What may get more complex is the interactive stuff, but that's nothing to do with the card.I accept what you say and you probably are right, Especially now, when things are more mature. However, I certainly felt the need to upgrade from my 7600GT, which in theory was just sufficient and proved, for me, not to be.

Studios do seem happy to add some increased encoder complexity to new discs. There seems a somwhat cavalier attitude to early adopters and their already out of date machines (e.g profile 1.1, profile 2.0). It just would not surprise me completely if some future discs, whilst meeting the same standard, pushed the complexity to the point where first gen players and some old PC hardware could not cope (smoothly). That seems to be what happened with my 7600GT at least.

I just don't like being without headroom in my config and the 3450 is pretty much in that category. It can do 1080p resolution, but not more. Other cards can go further. However, I respect those who are happier living closer to the edge!

arfster

04-30-08, 11:11 AM

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm always on the headroom side of the argument too. However, the reason is that ATI cut it too close with the shaders, and you find (like the 2400pro) it can't do something like 1080i mpeg2 interlaced.

However for pure decoding purposes, ie ignoring deinterlacing/postprocessing (shader) issues, none of the cards will ever be troubled by anything progressive on a Bluray disc. Even the 2400pro can handle way beyond Bluray graphics specs. I've run 60mbit h264 1080p 60fps through one of them, while Bluray graphics peak is 40mbit (and average more like 25mbit), usually at 24fps. Basically the decoder (ie the UVD) is way overspecced because it's a common part throughout the series, but the shaders are underspecced on the cheap models.

In practice, I wouldn't buy a 2400 now, or a 34xx. Guessing that a 36xx should have enough though (anyone tried 1080i mpeg2?).

jong1

04-30-08, 11:13 AM

Interesting. Thanks for that valuable experience. Thing is we always think "ah that's what they got wrong, it'll be fine next time". Then there is a new way to screw up that comes and bites us!

Sounds like we agree in the end though :).

p.s I don't have too much 1080i MPEG-2, but do have a couple of test clips. I will give them a go.

gtfoltz

04-30-08, 11:55 AM

that figures and makes sense, so what's your take, is the 2600XT worth the upgrade from the 2600HD or should I get the same card?

The 3450/3650 are slightly updated versions of the 2400/2600 series. Unless you got a KILLER deal on the 2x00 (like the $25 I paid for my 2600 pro :D ), you should definitely get a 3650 over a 2600 pro or 2600 XT. I would specifically NOT opt for the XT, however, since the faster memory is completely wasted on HTPC tasks (you said you weren't interested in gaming, right?).

The short answer is a 3650 will do any HTPC task as good or better than a HD 2600 series card. And consume less watts and run cooler at the same time. And I'm not sure where you are getting your video card prices--$109 for a HD 2600 pro??? YEOW! They are $25-$60 at places like Newegg--and there are several flavors of the 3650 in the $50-$80 range. (some after rebate of course).

So, if price is a major consideration, get a cheap 2600 pro (not the XT). If you want to future proof just a bit more, the 3650 is the way to go.

jong1

04-30-08, 12:11 PM

This may be irrelevant as I have a 3850, but I tried playing my 1080i .ts stuff through PDVD8 and the PQ was great, but slow panning performance not great to be honest. Definitely not fluid. Not obvious interlacing artifacts or tearing but 'jittery' . It was like each line or small group of lines we being moved independently! Probabaly sounds worse than it was, but definitely not as good as I get with TheaterTek. Maybe a Cyberlink issue though.

Al Sherwood

04-30-08, 12:25 PM

Wow, excellant fedback you guys! :)

The prices I quoted are local, I live in an area that has the most expensive prices for PC hardware I know of, and yes I know that there are a lot of online places to buy frombut, if they are in the US, I have to worry about shipping and duty/brokerage fees which make this a "no go". If the place is in Canada then it is just shipping, a bit better but definitely slower and very problematic if there is any problem and a return is required...

As gatherd, almost exclusivley HD Movies, little to no games.

So a HD3650... 512mb? or is 256MB enough?

The reason I ask is there a local source for a HD3850 256MB at $149...

gtfoltz

04-30-08, 12:41 PM

The more RAM, the better for games, but the more watts consumed at all times. In other words, completely wasted and not even desired on a non-gaming HTPC.

memes_be

04-30-08, 02:17 PM

bobbyrr

04-30-08, 05:42 PM

As an aside, the ATI dongle/driver does seem to be doing funny stuff for HDTV use that is probably not ideal for computer monitor use, based on this other thread (http://www.theatertek.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9451&page=4)

Clicq and Oilisgold,

Can you please check and report back what revision your DVI-HDMI dongle is?

I am using a black dongle with "ATI RADEON GRAPHICS" and "REV A" molded on it.

Is yours also a Rev A? I know that Rev B exists and I wonder if it would make a difference in our cases.

jong1

04-30-08, 06:14 PM

Yep. If what we discovered yesterday is correct then the ATI dongle (at least the 3xxx series one, maybe the 2xxx series one) causes the card to output video level (16-235) YCbCr instead of PC level (0-255) RGB.

I personally think that is right and proper for a TV, although there has been some debate on this point! But this would certainly not be good for a PC monitor used e.g. for photo editing.

Much better if we got to choose in CCC.

Al Sherwood

04-30-08, 06:19 PM

Comparing only the HD2600Pro to the HD3650, they look very similar, but I did notice mention of UVD with the HD3650:

Improved Unified Video Decoder – Enjoy Blu-ray and HD DVD movies with a dedicated hardware video decoder (UVD) that leaves your CPU unbound to do other tasks.

The 3650 mentions both UVD and ATI Avivo™ HD technology?

Does the HD2600Pro have this as well? I couldn't find it mentiond, is it necessary?

thanks

gtfoltz

04-30-08, 06:29 PM

Al Sherwood

04-30-08, 06:37 PM

yes, the 2x00 series does have the UVD engine, but like the 3650 ad said, it was "improved" on the 3x50 series. However, from what I've read it's fairly minor--and mostly apparent in the improved ability of the 3450 to handle HD decode, which the 2400 pro struggled with.

Again, the 3650 is clearly the better HTPC choice over any 2x00 series card. Only price would justify getting the older model.

Hmmm, the price is about the same $110 (local retail) for a VisionTek HD2600Pro 512MB or $115 (online order) for a Diamond Viper - ATI Radeon™ HD 3650 PCIE 1GB GDDR2 Video Card plus shipping...and waiting.

Does the 3850 run on the same driver suite (ATI CCC) as the 2600?

BTW, looked at your Unraid server, would you still recommend it?

gtfoltz

04-30-08, 07:11 PM

clicq

04-30-08, 07:29 PM

Clicq and Oilisgold,

Can you please check and report back what revision your DVI-HDMI dongle is?

I am using a black dongle with "ATI RADEON GRAPHICS" and "REV A" molded on it.

Is yours also a Rev A? I know that Rev B exists and I wonder if it would make a difference in our cases.

Yep, my ATI dongle is Rev. A. I doubt the Rev B dongle would fix it, since if you're using HDMI for a TV connection, you want it to behave as it does. The only hope is for ATI to put in an option in the driver to control what output is used.

But really, DVI-HDMI dongles are pretty cheap! You don't get sound, but on a LCD monitor, it's not much trouble to run the audio cable.

Al Sherwood

05-01-08, 02:09 AM

By price difference, I meant a LARGE price difference to justify buying a 2600. For $5 and a couple days? Clearly the 3650...

Yes, all newer ATI Radeon cards (AFAIK) use the same CCC suite

Of EVERYTHING in my home theater and home network, there is nothing that I am more pleased with than my humble little unRAID server. :)

That server idea just might be the ticket... hey I'm getting side tracked! ;)

3650 huh, this looks interesting:

http://www.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=2&l2=8&l3=637&l4=0&model=2105&modelmenu=1

HT Slider

05-01-08, 04:10 PM

Hmmm, the price is about the same $110 (local retail) for a VisionTek HD2600Pro 512MB or $115 (online order) for a Diamond Viper - ATI Radeon™ HD 3650 PCIE 1GB GDDR2 Video Card plus shipping...and waiting.

Does the 3850 run on the same driver suite (ATI CCC) as the 2600?

One warning:

Every single Diamond card I have purchased has been very loud - far too loud for an HTPC. On top of that, many of them have had major issues where they run right on verge of overheating and screw up during prolonged HD DXVA decoding (watching movies).

What I discovered is Diamond pretty much always drops down the size of the heatsink and fan to the next lower card. For example, the fan on the HD2600XT is the one that ATI and most other manufacturers use on the HD2600Pro. Because of this, the fan has to spin at max rpm almost all the time and is very loud.

I've had much better luck with Sapphire and genuine ATI cards. I haven't tried Visiontek yet.

Al Sherwood

05-01-08, 04:36 PM

One warning:

Every single Diamond card I have purchased has been very loud - far too loud for an HTPC. On top of that, many of them have had major issues where they run right on verge of overheating and screw up during prolonged HD DXVA decoding (watching movies).

What I discovered is Diamond pretty much always drops down the size of the heatsink and fan to the next lower card. For example, the fan on the HD2600XT is the one that ATI and most other manufacturers use on the HD2600Pro. Because of this, the fan has to spin at max rpm almost all the time and is very loud.

I've had much better luck with Sapphire and genuine ATI cards. I haven't tried Visiontek yet.

That is good to know.

I just found out that Diamond have issued a RMA for my HD2600Pro, problem is they ship the return card withUPS Ground, can you spell Brokerage fees! :eek:

Let's see, $10 for me to ship to them, $15 for them to ship back to me, add the brokerage fee (on the last $100 valued item UPS gouged me for $41) so $10+15+41= $66! :mad:

I have a call in to Diamond about the value declared for customs, if they go with anything close to $100 I guess the card hits the trash can! :(

What do you think of the card I linked to above?

racerxnet

05-01-08, 05:13 PM

There was/is a bug in the bios for the fan speed which caused some of the ATI based cards to fail. You can do a search on this for more info.. I reflashed mine with modified settings to keep the card cool during heavy use. My card is the Sapphire 3850.

MAK

HT Slider

05-01-08, 06:03 PM

What do you think of the card I linked to above?

I haven't really done any research on the newer cards.

I know my HT 2600XT works flawlessly in PowerDVD Ultra, Media Player, etc. but it (or more likely software somewhere) has trouble when initializing DXVA from within Vista Media Center when asked to play HD or other highly compressed video.

I think this is a relatively isolated problem though, but there are definitely a number of 2600XTs with this issue.

Wo0zy

05-01-08, 08:13 PM

clicq

05-01-08, 08:51 PM

I apologise if the following has already been mentioned. I scanned the last 10 or so pages and couldn't see any reference so thought I'd post a couple of observations regarding 8.4 under Vista 32-bit.

1. If you install prior to installing SP1 then WU refuses to offer you the upgrade. Returning to 8.2 and running WU again offers SP1. I've seen referencing here to people running 8.4 with SP1 so I assume that providing you install the service pack first then 8.4 installs fine (just not the other way around).

2. 8.4 breaks the HDMI audio functionality. Again, returning to 8.2 instantly fixes the problem,

3. WU offered me an "IDT HDMI Audio" driver. Out of interest I installed it and it seems to work fine (IDT? very odd). Has anyone tried to see if AC3 passthrough works with this driver or does it only offer 2-channel as per the MS driver? (I'm not in a position to test it ATM).

Thanks,

Wo0zy

No idea about the Vista SP1 issue; I had SP1 installed before installing 8.4.

As for your observation about HDMI audio, I have no problem using the correct driver from Realtek (http://www.realtek.com.tw/downloads/downloadsView.aspx?Langid=1&PNid=14&PFid=24&Level=4&Conn=3&DownTypeID=3&GetDown=false). I'm not sure if the link will work; if not, just go to realtek's site and click on the links for HD audio codec. Once you reach the download page, they have a specific ATI HDMI sound driver. I just tried this driver with AC3; after enabling the formats (DTS and Dolby Digital) in the sound control panel, it passes it to my TV just fine.

I always had to use the Realtek driver though; I didn't think the ATI drivers came with the HDMI audio driver.

racerxnet

05-01-08, 09:24 PM

For HD audio with the ATI cards you need to have the UAA driver installed in order for this to function. There are drivers available for XP SP1 as well. After the driver is loaded you can then load the HD drivers from ATI. Look in dsevice drivers for the HD audio and set it for this in your sound device properties.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/835221

MAK

nathan118

05-02-08, 01:23 AM

Wo0zy

05-02-08, 04:06 AM

No idea about the Vista SP1 issue; I had SP1 installed before installing 8.4.

As for your observation about HDMI audio, I have no problem using the correct driver from Realtek (http://www.realtek.com.tw/downloads/downloadsView.aspx?Langid=1&PNid=14&PFid=24&Level=4&Conn=3&DownTypeID=3&GetDown=false). I'm not sure if the link will work; if not, just go to realtek's site and click on the links for HD audio codec. Once you reach the download page, they have a specific ATI HDMI sound driver. I just tried this driver with AC3; after enabling the formats (DTS and Dolby Digital) in the sound control panel, it passes it to my TV just fine.

I always had to use the Realtek driver though; I didn't think the ATI drivers came with the HDMI audio driver.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm aware of these issues. My comments were from observations made while updating a demo unit with the latest drivers.

I've alway use the Realtek Driver (although the MS UAA driver works fine for 2-channel LPCM, it doesn't for AC3). I just wondered why WU was offering an IDT HDMI driver and whether it had the same issue as the old MS driver?

As far as CCC is concerned. Install 8.4 and the audio stops working (I tried it with the MS driver, the "IDT" driver and Realtek's 1.91 and 1.68 drivers. None of them work. Remove CCC 8.4, re-install 8.2 and the audio instantly works again (with all drivers).

I ran out of time for testing but now I have SP1 installed (with 8.2) so will try installing 8.4 again a bit later to see if the audio is still broken. I've seen a few references to this problem elsewhere. One thing I noticed is that with 8.2 my "DTV" connection is shown as "HDMI" but with 8.4 it shows "DVI". I'm guessing this is the problem but no amount of "re-detecting" or disconnecting and reconnecting changes this.

As far as why SP1 will not appear in WU with 8.4 installed, I have no idea.

Cheers,

Wo0zy

Edit: Actually, I must apologise. It appears someone changed the 2600 in the demo unit to a 3650 instead so technically this is the wrong thread.

nathan118

05-02-08, 05:13 PM

I've got a recording of the office I made tonight, but I'm having problems with hardware acceleration. I ran the file through mpeg2repair, and it reports it as telecine material, so it appears the station is sending it with pulldown flags. The problem I have is that no matter what settings I try, I'm not happy with the deinterlacing. Most of the time my gpu activity is at 1%, but every once in a while it will jump up to 37%, and then on the next refresh shoot back to 1%.

I've tried turning off the pulldown detection box, and I think it deinterlaces better, but gpu activity is still only at 1%. To describe what I'm seeing, most of the time it looks fine, but every now and then it will "jump" a little. I'll run it back, and on the second play through it will be buttery smooth. So I don't know if the pulldown flagging sucks, or is it the 2600xt that sucks? I'm on 7.10. Any ideas?

I've gone to 8.4, no help. I've even tried moving to PowerDVD 8 Ultra to try the cyberlink decoders, and they're even worse. I even went into the advanced settings, and tried all the different deinterlacing settings. I'm out of ideas to try and get this 24fps 1080i mpeg2 to accelerate and deinterlace well.

I could cut out a portion of the video and upload it if anyone is willing to look at it or try it out on their setup. I'm at a complete loss.

bjuford

05-02-08, 06:46 PM

First of all, some specs:
Epox8rda+(nforce2), AMD barton 2500+ @ 3200 ~52'C at load, AGP Gecube hd2400pro with cat 8.3 from gecube's site. Playing videos (mostly mkv's 720p) through Mediaportal or MPC HC 1.1 with WMR9, Haali splitter, AC3filter 1.46 and MPC HC's built in x264 codec with DXVA enabled.

A really annoying thing keep haunting me from time to time. When i watch a movie or tv episode, the film freezes occasionally for 10 secs while audio sometimes keep on plying and sometimes goes into a loop. I'm sure that i got DXVA enabled cos' my cpu graph is at the bottom at all times. Also, in CCC, the GPU load is reported as ~11%. This phenomena shows itself about every 40 minute or so and the rest of the time it perfect with smooth playback and no tearing or stuttering. If I rewind the video for checking if the file is corrupted or something the freeze is no longer there and the video plays fine.

I've been playing around in CCC to check if some settings can solve my "freezing"-problem and as defult I've turned most of the thing off regarding AA and such... but nothing helps.

Anyone experiencing the same problem or have any suggestions to a solution?? Please! :confused:

arfster

05-02-08, 07:04 PM

I'm sure that i got DXVA enabled cos' my cpu graph is at the bottom at all times. Also, in CCC, the GPU load is reported as ~11%.

That tells you nothing about acceleration either way - that % is measuring the shaders, not the decoding element. Use DXVA checker to load a video, it'll tell you whether any acceleration is on.

Do the freezes only happen with x264 mkvs, and have you tried the cyberlink decoder for the same?

At a guess, I'd imagine you're seeing a hardware problem. The 2400pros are notorious for this (passive cooled model?)

bjuford

05-02-08, 08:58 PM

OK, I've downloaded dxva checker and as far as I can tell, DXVA is in use, for both MPC's and Cyberlink's decoders in wmr9. When I try it in EVR the application reports that the decoder device is not in use. As it should be with win XP I suppose.

The only encodes I've tried accelerating so far are just x264 mkvs. Perhaps I should try a few DVD mpeg2s aswell. And trying the Cyberlink decoder just brings me even more trouble with the 20fps bug or black screen. dll-swapping seems to enable DXVA but most files won't acc. even when using idc changer to set levels @ 4.1.

Speaking of passive cooling.. The stock fan was so noisy that I switched it to a zalman vf700, running it on the lowest speed. Perhaps it can be an over heating issue. CCC doesn't report any extreme values and seldom reaches over 40'C but that could be showing what ever it likes, I don't trust that anyway. Will investigate this futher...

arfster

05-02-08, 09:18 PM

grubi

05-03-08, 10:33 AM

For those who also have problems on playpack of HD MPEG2 material I found another option to combine "disable HW decoding" + "enable hw deinterlacing". The solution is to use the Dscaler MPEG decoder. DXVAChecker proves that. If you want VectorAdaptive you have to choose ColorSpace NV12 otherwise you only get Adaptive. This solved the hickup problems I had on MPEG2 HD althoug I have a HD2600XT.

grubi.

millerbrad

05-03-08, 09:16 PM

millerbrad

05-03-08, 09:24 PM

Hmm.. can't edit posts on Windows Mobile..

I meant to say I have a 2600XT -- not 2400XT. I'm also outputting video in 1080p, which worked fine with the 7.7 drivers.

barfly711

05-04-08, 01:51 AM

I finally got my Sapphire 2600XT dialed in pretty well last week with advice I received in the thread I posted. I can at least see text from the couch without a telescope since I cranked up the DPI to 120 and enabled Large fonts:

Help w/2600XT on plasma screen (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1024650)

I've been putting my setup through the gauntlet so to speak for the past few days. Guitar Hero III for PC ran decent at 1920x1080, but acted sluggish in some of the levels. I turned off the crowd because all you're really looking at is the notes fly by anyways and that really improved performance. I was surprised this video card paired with my Q6600 overclocked mildly to 3.0Ghz and 4GB of RAM couldn't handle the game as well as I had hoped.

I'll be completely honest, I have no idea what half of those settings in CCC are for as this is my first really decent video card. Could someone give me a run down of their settings or some advice for which features I should turn off?

Also, I was playing Beowulf 1080p tonight in PowerDVD and during the darker scenes I could notice 2-3 vertical bars on the right side of my screen. They were non existent during the action scenes, but in low light non-action shots I could faintly see them. I'm being extremely meticulous and any other normal person would probably think I was crazy for worry about it, but because I know they're there it's going to bother me. I wonder if this is related to the problem I was having when I posted my original thread?

Basically, I wish I had time to comb through all 170+ pages of this thread, but could someone just point me to a run-down on these cards? "So you just bought your first ATI card" or "CCC For Dummies" would be great ;-)

karrih

05-04-08, 02:39 AM

Unfortunately, I get alot of stuttering in HD video

I backed out to 8.3 because of this. Personally I have only edited Denoise_DEF to zero and rebooted my XP.

grubi

05-04-08, 06:08 AM

BTW, taking a raw mpeg-2 transport stream and playing it using ATI's default DXVA denoise, 8.3/8.4 does a much better job on denoise than 7.11 did. Also, with the sliders available in 8.3/8.4, we can fine tune how much denoise is performed (although I don't think the denoise truly turns off unless TRDenoise is set to 0 in the registry).

If you try to imagine the mathematics behind these denoise algorithms, it is fairly easy to imagine that when you add up multiple denoise processes being run on the same video, that eventually it will start screwing up the image.

You'll probably find there is some denoise type processing in the original digital compression performed by your cable company (or whoever compressed it), then more performed by the STB, then losses in the analog conversion, then more denoise in the video capture and mpeg-2 re-compression (done by your capture card), followed by even more done by the ATI video card. If you consider the configuration where you use the TV Tuner in the PC, there are still multiple sets of denoise algorithms run on all the video.

ATI has their denoise set by default to just about right for the mpeg-2 found on a typical DVD and it is just about impossible for them to get it right for every other video source.

What ATI needs IMO, is additional and easier to use denoise control. I also feel that their default should be less, but you have to understand from their position they are trying to ensure they pass HQV DVD denoise tests. They need a lot of denoise in order to provide the best image quality from DVD and other compressed sources.

Maybe ATI could develop some way of analyzing the video being played and try to figure out how much denoise processing has already been done and then tune their own filters accordingly?

Seems that I have an issue here not everyone is affected. Maybe this again is something only happening on PAL material. I remeber we had similar things with previous releases. I feed the RAW stream and only do any postprocessing on the Catalyst side. With 8.3 ghosting is introduced which cannot be eliminated by the sliders. With 7.11 I have no sliders and only a very decent denoising however no ghosting. Ghosting is most visible on faces. When they move only a little bit you can see that details of the face, esp. shades do not move with the rest of the face.

grubi.

grubi

05-04-08, 06:43 AM

Ack... I'm trying to set up the 8.4 Catalysts on my HD2400XT. Had been using the 7.7 drivers with good results, but wanted to try and do away with the posterization & red shift.

Unfortunately, I get alot of stuttering in HD video from ATSC recordings. Using Ex Deus' latest registry hacks. Running RivaTuner shows about 40% GPU use with 1080i content.

Any suggestions on smoothing things out?

I had similar problems with some 1080i MPEG material maxing out the GPU of my HD2600XT. The solution for me was to balance the workload between CPU and GPU. Where is the point in letting the GPU do all the work and leaving the CPU alone at 5% utilization? As I stated the solution for me was to let the CPU doing the MPEG decoding and the GPU to do deinterlacing and postprocessing.

grubi.

tdanco

05-04-08, 07:10 PM

Hi all,

My 2600xt likes to switch scaling. Sometimes I will have to crank scaling all the way up to fill my 1080p tv and then after a reboot Ill have to put it back into the middle!?

Does anyone have a fix for this? I have an msi 2600xt. Running the 8.383 drivers.

Thanks!

djos

05-04-08, 07:13 PM

dufflover

05-05-08, 12:18 AM

Where is the point in letting the GPU do all the work and leaving the CPU alone at 5% utilization? As I stated the solution for me was to let the CPU doing the MPEG decoding and the GPU to do deinterlacing and postprocessing.

That was my biggest gripe initially when I first got the HD2400 Pro - it's not removing the CPU bottleneck ... just putting somewhere else!

Since going to the HD2400XT though I've just settled on running a bit OC'd and the ocassional skip on 1080i material (only 2 regular shows atm are 1080i/HD). Reason why I haven't gone the split route is cos I'm still not confident that going that way maintains vector adaptive de-interlacing.

grubi

05-05-08, 04:56 AM

That was my biggest gripe initially when I first got the HD2400 Pro - it's not removing the CPU bottleneck ... just putting somewhere else!

Since going to the HD2400XT though I've just settled on running a bit OC'd and the ocassional skip on 1080i material (only 2 regular shows atm are 1080i/HD). Reason why I haven't gone the split route is cos I'm still not confident that going that way maintains vector adaptive de-interlacing.

But that can easily be verified by using DXVAChecker.

grubi.

dufflover

05-05-08, 07:24 AM

Yeah true. I guess it's just more paranoia about stuffing up what I have now more than anything.

Annoyingly though they just put a few last passive HD2600XTs at my local store just a few dollars more than what I paid for the 2400XT a few weeks ago :eek:.

d'oh!

pnyberg

05-06-08, 03:07 PM

Seems that I have an issue here not everyone is affected. Maybe this again is something only happening on PAL material. I remeber we had similar things with previous releases. I feed the RAW stream and only do any postprocessing on the Catalyst side. With 8.3 ghosting is introduced which cannot be eliminated by the sliders. With 7.11 I have no sliders and only a very decent denoising however no ghosting. Ghosting is most visible on faces. When they move only a little bit you can see that details of the face, esp. shades do not move with the rest of the face.

grubi.

Interesting I see this too using MediaPortal and Cyberlink 7 decoder, with 8.3.
So you are saying this is gone with 7.11? But the red-shift problem is there with 7.11? (that as my main driver for upgrading), as you see I am considering downgrading because of this ghosting thing.... Also you said in another post you did use Dscaler to let CPU decode but let the HD2600 do the post processing - which version of Dscaler and are you using it for MediaPortal as well?

Thanks in advance

HT Slider

05-06-08, 06:56 PM

If ghosting is a problem, add the TRDenoise=0 registry entry.

It has 100% resolved all of my previous ghosting issues with these card.

Even with the TRDenoise entry, I believe there is a small amount of denoise that can be controlled from within CCC still (I'm not 100% certain of this though).

Either way, add TRDenoise=0 and run a current driver and you should see decent image quality without any ghosting.

grubi

05-07-08, 04:23 AM

Interesting I see this too using MediaPortal and Cyberlink 7 decoder, with 8.3.
So you are saying this is gone with 7.11? But the red-shift problem is there with 7.11? (that as my main driver for upgrading), as you see I am considering downgrading because of this ghosting thing.... Also you said in another post you did use Dscaler to let CPU decode but let the HD2600 do the post processing - which version of Dscaler and are you using it for MediaPortal as well?

Thanks in advance

Ghosting is gone or at least *much* less present with 7.11 than with 8.3. From my observation the red-shift problem is also solved in 7.11 which was visible with prior releases. These two issues are exactly the reason I stick with 7.11 for now. BTW I also use the Cyberlink 7 decoder esp for HD. I'm using the DScaler 5008 release because this is the only one offering NV12 colorspace which is necessary to use the adaptive deinterlacing of the Radeon while not using DXVA. MediaPortal is the environment I use all these nifty things together.

You also could use the TRDenoise=0 setting to eliminate the ghosting however my experience is that esp. with DVB streams the picture quality greatly improves when using a decent denoise.

BTW. I also tried the bitcontrol codec however I was not able to get adaptive deinterlacing with it under XP. I think the docs tell why. NV12 is only supported under Vista.

HTH.

grubi

pnyberg

05-07-08, 06:03 AM

thanks grubi, ht slider.

I am using trdenoise=0 but still I got these small ghosting - especially with slow moving faces.

grubi, regarding Dscaler 5008, I tried it yesterday with MP on Vista with EVR on - but I did not get HW Deinterlacing - at least not with DVD movies (MPEG2 PAL) and live TV (MPEG2, PAL).

Tried it with VMR9 and it looked like it worked there? Is that your experience as well?
I have problems with VMR9 in MP - when stopping movies or stopping DVDs the screen just goes black and I need to stop MP and start it again to get back to MP GUI again. So I don't want to use it because of that.

Also the NV12 setting is not visible in MP config right? I managed to set it via filtermanager - but perhaps get reverted when starting MP?

grubi

05-07-08, 12:21 PM

>>I am using trdenoise=0 but still I got these small ghosting - especially with
>>slow moving faces.

Interresting. Did you try with 7.11 or 8.3. I have to admit that I did not check if it solves the problem with 8.3. Maybe smoething different is causing it with 8.3. Did you check a different deinterlacing mode? On what material do you see this?
NTSC or PAL? Also with progressive material?

>>grubi, regarding Dscaler 5008, I tried it yesterday with MP on Vista with
>>EVR on - but I did not get HW Deinterlacing - at least not with DVD movies
>>(MPEG2 PAL) and live TV (MPEG2, PAL).

I cannot comment on this as I'm using WinXP and not Vista.

>>Also the NV12 setting is not visible in MP config right? I managed to set it
>>via filtermanager - but perhaps get reverted when starting MP?[/QUOTE]

That's correct as NV12 was implemented in 5008 and not 5006 which was the last included in MediaPortal. However the filter settings are not touched my MediaPortal in any way as long as you do not change them via MediaPortal settings page.

grubi.

KeyMix

05-07-08, 09:38 PM

Hey Folks,

I've got a HD2600 Pro AGP card and it drives a Sony VPL-HS51A Projector (http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sony-VPL-HS51A.htm

If I understand the specs right, the VPL-HS51A is not a true 1080P display. Its a 720P projector that can accept upto a 1080P signal and downconvert to display.

With that said, I've been using the 1920x1080 at 1080i 60Hz resolution setting from the ATI CCC.

The setting that the VPL-HS51A detects via HDMI is Preset # 7 -1080/60i fH(33.75 kHz) fV (60Hz). This is also the same I get from Comcast @1080i.

The only 1080p signal the VPL-HS51A can handle is a 1080/24Psf - Preset #9 1080/48i fH(27.000 kHz) fV (48Hz).

I used PowerStrip successfully, it had a built in 1080/24psf setting and it indeed selected Preset #9..

Visually I wasn't sure if it made a difference. Should I see any? What resolution is recommended for HD and BlueRay playback?

Any input would be great!!

blun7

05-08-08, 12:28 AM

It's clearly not working, so probably media portal is failing to initialise it and switching to another codec. Try using MPC-HC and forcing it to use the cyberlink codec, and see what CPU figures you get.

By teh way, another issue you will probably run into is that many x264 encodes off the net break the h264 4.1 standards, and thus don't accelerate (720p and newer 1080p ones are often OK, but not 1080p ones that are >3 months). However, generally when pdvd fails to accelerate it just blackscreens.

Thanks for the info. I got mpc-hc and forced pdvd's decoder. It's better, cpu usage is at around 75%. Even though the cpu doesn't max out the cpu, playback isn't smooth. One thing to note is I couldn't find a cyberlink filter for passing the dts over spdif so I'm using ffdshow for dts spdif passthrough.

Is the 2400 simply not up to the task of decoding 1080p x264 in the mkv container?

nathan118

05-08-08, 01:04 AM

I'm still messing with my telecined capture of The Office. I've download dxva checker to further investigate.

When I tell it to render using the ati mpeg decoder "ModeMPEG2_C" it plays the file and says VectorAdaptiveDevice. I find that checking the "pulldown detection" box in ccc doesn't change anything. The weird part is the frame rate it reports. During overlays it jumps all over the place. During the rest of the show it will often say 24fps, but fairly often it jumps all over. It will jump up to 29 or 31, and then go right back to 24. It will jump up to 40 or 59, and then back to 24. Shouldn't it be at a solid 24 the whole time?

I'm starting to think it's a problem with the way the local broadcaster is encoding the video. The card is doing the pulldown (thus the 24 fps), but it seems to be running into random problems.

arfster

05-08-08, 01:05 AM

Is the 2400 simply not up to the task of decoding 1080p x264 in the mkv container?

Nah, it can do that without batting an eyelid, same as all the other cards in the series. The caveat is that the x264 encode must meet L4.1 standards, and most until recently didn't (mainly that they used far too many ref frames). That's a problem that has no solution, with any card out there - they all work to L4.1 (presumably because that's the Bluray standard).

grubi

05-08-08, 04:04 AM

It's clearly not working, so probably media portal is failing to initialise it and switching to another codec. Try using MPC-HC and forcing it to use the cyberlink codec, and see what CPU figures you get.

By teh way, another issue you will probably run into is that many x264 encodes off the net break the h264 4.1 standards, and thus don't accelerate (720p and newer 1080p ones are often OK, but not 1080p ones that are >3 months). However, generally when pdvd fails to accelerate it just blackscreens.

If MP fails to build the graph with the specified codec and falls back to another one can simply be verified by looking at mediaportal.log. I'm using MP with Cyberlink 7 codec and a HD2600XT and did not have any problems on smooth playback so far (One exception are a few 1080i MPEG2 streams which max out the GPU but as I posted using Dscaler codec to balance load between CPU and GPU fixes the problem here while preserving VA deinterlacing. Maybe it's an important fact that I'm still on WinXP.

grubi.

zippy64

05-08-08, 12:08 PM

one_2go

05-08-08, 01:15 PM

blun7

05-08-08, 11:58 PM

Nah, it can do that without batting an eyelid, same as all the other cards in the series. The caveat is that the x264 encode must meet L4.1 standards, and most until recently didn't (mainly that they used far too many ref frames). That's a problem that has no solution, with any card out there - they all work to L4.1 (presumably because that's the Bluray standard).

How do you determine the standard used to encode a video?

Dee_NA

05-09-08, 08:00 AM

bjuford

05-09-08, 12:12 PM

Yeah, you'll definitely need to try other types of acceleration some, helps pin it down.

For the card, it may not be the chip itself overheating, but other components. If you have one, point a desktop fan the case (opened!) and see if that stops the freezes.

Well, I've tried acc. some SD mpeg2s but couldn't bare to watch a grainy picture long enough to see if the freezes showed themself. :)

I have to admit though, that the air blowing out of my htpc is quite hot, so I took the lid off to do some tests. Just taking it off reduced my temps by approx. 10 degrees and I haven't seen the "freezings" since on any mkv:s. Guess the new bad news is that I have to add another fan, but thats a whole lot better than the freezes.

Edit: Cool air intake fan added to case @ 800rpm , cleaned the cpu HS from dust, temps down to ~35 :)

Maier2505

05-09-08, 01:07 PM

I have a question that I'm hopin someone can answer...
From where I have my monitor set to 1280 x1084, the whole movie is viewable. But when its played on a TV, the edges of the movie is cutoff (Ex. a fullscreen movie). Anybody know why that is and if it can be fixed or not?

You have the TV connected through Analog Video ?

1. A normal Tube TV is not able to show this high resolution, so reduce the resolution to 1024x768 or 800x600...

2. a slight overscan is fully normal with a tube TV...

Best regards

maier2505

HT Slider

05-09-08, 03:12 PM

I have a question that I'm hopin someone can answer...
From where I have my monitor set to 1280 x1084, the whole movie is viewable. But when its played on a TV, the edges of the movie is cutoff (Ex. a fullscreen movie). Anybody know why that is and if it can be fixed or not?

If you go back a few pages you'll find a couple of posts by me where I explain this in detail.

KeyMix

05-09-08, 09:13 PM

jong1

05-10-08, 03:34 AM

Can I get any feedback please?:oThere is no black and white answer to your question. If your PJ is natively 720p then something is going to have to downscale the video - either your PJ or your video card. The question is which, in your opinion, does it best. Just try both options and decide. Regarding 24fps vs 60fps, for movies 24fps is better. It is the original frame rate of almost all and avoids 3:2 pulldown judder.

arfster

05-10-08, 11:08 AM

shurik_1

05-10-08, 11:34 AM

arfster

05-10-08, 12:20 PM

On XP with 8.4 AGP hotfix blu-ray picture in PDVD fills entire 2560x1600 screen

Weird - which card?

HT Slider

05-10-08, 02:11 PM

Hrrrmf, just testing 8.4 some more, got the usual Bluray only half the screen thing when I played on my 1080p screen. Problem now is that vforcemaxressize doesn't fix it anymore.

Am I being paranoid when I suggest old cards are deliberately being screwed? This bug has been around for 6 months now, and not only have they not fixed it, they've now gone and neutered the registry solution too. The card itself is perfectly capable of fullscreen 1080p, as I used it like that for months. It's the same with dualscreen acceleration - broken and not fixed.

Can you elaborate on this issue some more?

I'm running 8.4 with our genuine ATI HD 2600XT 512MB PCIe and Blue-ray movies have always played back flawlessly.

I've tried with and without the VForceMaxResSize and SORTOverrideVidSizeCaps in the past (probably with 8.3 last time) and haven't noticed any change with CPU utilization nor image quality changes.

Edit: I just realized you said 1080p. I output 1920x1080 at 1080i, not p. I wonder if this makes the difference? One thing to note though is my father's HTPC has an HD2600Pro in it and it plays back Blue-ray movies flawlessly also. His system doesn't have any registry tweaks applied at all, is running Catalyst 8.4 and his display is hooked up using HDMI (ATI DVI->HDMI adapter with HDMI audio) and using 1080p. Note that currently I don't have any registry tweaks applied for the video card on my system either (but I have, as mentioned above, tested them to see if there was any change).

shurik_1

05-10-08, 03:17 PM

Weird - which card?

GeForce 2600Pro AGP. Did no touch to VForceMaxResSize in the registry since 7.8 driver version. I remember that without the trick at higher resolutions the picture was small in a black frame.

djrh

05-11-08, 01:16 AM

Has anyone been successful with HD2600 and DVB Dream? I run into various issues, I think related to the fact that DVB Dream does not use the card's GPU. Instead, it uses the CPU for mpeg decoding. My problems are:

1) Choppy mpeg2 video when I use Cyberlink DTV or ARCSoft as mpeg2 codec. Basically, it will freeze for a fraction every few seconds. CPU stays at less than 20%, GPU reported in CCC at 1%. If I use elecard 3.x mpeg2, the video goes smoothly, but the picture does not look good (it's like when I disable the "video overlay" option in an mms stream).

Moreover, when I watch mpeg2 hi-def (like ESPN), the picture is cropped and there are some artifacts starting from the left and the bottom.

2) can't get the h.264 to work. Tried ATI, ArcSoft, Cyberlink and CoreAVC, but none of them worked (the run on CPU, so I get 100% use)

Has anyone been successful in getting similar setup to work?

in a desperate need for help.

HELP, HELP, HELP :(:(:(:(:(

DrLove

05-11-08, 07:50 AM

Hi, I can get DXVA to work w/ x264@4.1, PDVD8 decoder, ZP, Vista and EVR but it breaks when I use subs? Is there a way to fix this?

Best regards L. Kull from Sweden.

arfster

05-11-08, 07:56 AM

It's all down to the decoder you use, nothing to do with the player really. Use the Cyberlink codec for h264, as coreavc doesn't support hardware. ATI doesn't play h264, and I could never get Arcsoft to work outside its player.

If you're in Vista, h264 needs EVR.

tetsuo55

05-11-08, 10:48 AM

Hi, I can get DXVA to work w/ x264@4.1, PDVD8 decoder, ZP, Vista and EVR but it breaks when I use subs? Is there a way to fix this?

Best regards L. Kull from Sweden.

subs will work if you enable the built in subtitle renderer of Media Player Classic

DrLove

05-11-08, 10:55 AM

subs will work if you enable the built in subtitle renderer of Media Player Classic

I have tested MPC and it uses vobsub any way :( can't get it to use the internal renderer.

tetsuo55

05-11-08, 10:57 AM

Options>Playback>Auto-load subtitles

And don't forget to block vobsub in Options>External filters

karrih

05-11-08, 01:49 PM

The card itself is perfectly capable of fullscreen 1080p, as I used it like that for months. It's the same with dualscreen acceleration - broken and not fixed.

Did you happen to upgrade PowerDVD Ultra? My 1080p hw acceleration stopped working when I upgraded PDVD Ultra 3730d to 4102. 720p works, however. I have 8.3 with HD2600Pro in XP setup.

dufflover

05-11-08, 09:21 PM

Maybe it's just because of driver/codec version combo, but I tried setting it to CPU decoding and GPU de-interlacing via FFDShow again but doesn't work for me; CPU load is very high and GPU load is very low. Probably could try something else but alas just more tweaking which I can't be bothered :p

(what prompted me to try was that the HD2400XT overclock still struggles with fast sport :()

Dee_NA

05-12-08, 06:38 PM

Anybody know what's the difference in performance between Xtreme-G Catalyst 8.4 XP 32bit & Omegadrivers?

ConradWS

05-13-08, 12:17 AM

Anybody know what's the difference in performance between Xtreme-G Catalyst 8.4 XP 32bit & Omegadrivers?

Last Omega drivers for XP 32 I could find was based on ATI version 7.12. Didn't try them but off-hand if your video card is supported you might gain a little performance by not using Catalyst Control Center and .net 2.0.

Later, Conrad

bjuford

05-13-08, 10:01 AM

I have just tried my old amd 2500+ nforce2 system with vista and all the tweaks with drivers to get it to work. Discovered that dxva through evr in vista is far more capable of smooth problem free playback with more files accepting dxva and they work together with pdvd7 codec and not just with mpc-hc's. Also, a few more options regarding de-noise etc popped up in CCC. (hd2400pro agp)

Q1: When installing Catalyst drivers; am I supposed to install the basic Cat first and then the AGP hotfix or can I just install the AGP hotfix right away?

Q2: regarding the AVIVO codec suite. As far as I can tell, this pack only include a bunch of mpeg2 codecs. Is this really necessary to install?

Luar Azul

05-13-08, 10:45 AM

WOW!! I had given up a long time ago on my 2400pro. I needed the ability to hardware decode VC1 1080p files (with .ts extension), I tried "everything" and just gave up on it. In fact, I haven't read this thread for many months, but now all these "sluggish" files were brought to life and I'm so happy that I have to share!! :) I'm not really sure as to what exactly was the secret combination but here's what I have and what I did:

What I have:
Athlon 64 3000+ // 1GB DDR // Sapphire 2400pro // LG 32" with DVI input
Windows XP 32bits (I've tried Vista, blarghh :eek:)

Catalyst 8.4 with ExDeus registry mods (http://exdeus.home.comcast.net/~exdeus/ati-hd2x00/)

Media player classic Homecinema 1.1.0.2 (http://tibrium.neuf.fr/DXVASupport.html)

Final Codecs 2008 (http://www.badongo.com/file/7870177)

The version of Media Player Classic is different from what comes in the Final Codecs pack. I prefer the Homecinema version because it uses it's own internal codec which provides DXVA hardware acceleration for some x264 files. It does not work on everything but it's a nice touch and on my system CoreAVC is usually good enough for the other files (although image quality seems a bit "faded" with Coreavc).

What I did:
Now, if you want to try what did: in media player classic homecinema, go to options, and then to "internal filters". On the right side, make sure the MPEG PS/TS/PVA is NOT checked. In the "external filters" select "Add filters" and add the Cyberlink VC1 decoder. (I tried the 8 and 7.x versions and they worked in a similar way, although the PDVD8 worked a bit better in some files.) After it's added select the Cyberlink filter and choose "prefer". Now go to the "output" section and select VMR9 (renderless), the VMR9 mixer mode should also be enabled. You may also select the 3D full screen option, in some files it helps a bit. But remember to use the Ctrl+C shortcut to close the movies, since all the menus will be unavailable while the movie is running. You may also use the Ctrl+F shortcut to tun this option on and off, but the file needs to be closed and open again to make the 3D option to effective. It is also very useful, in the "Miscellaneous" section, to chose the "remember file position", so that closing the file will not put it at the beginning again.

Now, I already tried this long before without much of a result! But what made the VC1 files run smoothly now was changing the splitter that opens the .ts files!! Now, perhaps there are better ways to change this, but I found out with the Final Codecs, so this is what I did:

In the Windows start menu choose the "Final Codecs" folder and then run the "Codecs Center". Click on the "advanced". Now in the upper part you will see the MPEG splitter. This controls the splitter that is used to play the .ts files. Now there is no single splitter that works on every file. I use either Cyberlink or Haali. Some files completely refuse to work with one but they will work perfectly on the other.

WOW!! I'm feeling amazed. I have been shopping for a whole new system, and I almost bought one today! And now I'm so glad I didn't (I saved money and dozens of hours). I stumbled upon the Final Codecs thingy and now there is not one single file that does not play on my old&slow system! Boy, I'm GLAD, I',ve been waiting to see these files for almost a year now!!!

:D YESSSSSS!!!!

(Sorry if this is old news! But I'm just ecstatic that finally this board is actually doing what it promised!!! :) )

PS - when installing Final Codecs it is best to uncheck the Media Player Classic, as it may conflict with the Homecinema version. Also, it is perhaps better to leave the file associations unchanged (so as to continue to use the Homecinema version). I had problems when I changed back the file associations: the hardware acceleration stopped working and I had to uninstall and reinstall everything (now everything is working again :) ). Also, in MPC homecinema, in the "Output" section of the "Options", it is also possible to select the "Overlay Mixer", it seems to work pretty well too!! :) Hope everything works for you too!! :)

PS2 - If the media player classic homecinema stutters on mkv files with VMR9 activated, go to options, and then to "internal filters". On the right side, make sure that Matroska is NOT checked. Then it is possible to select the splitter we want in the Final Codecs -> Codec Center - in the "Mkv splitter" section. Haali splitter works fine for me!! :)

arfster

05-13-08, 11:09 AM

On the right side, make sure the MPEG PS/TS/PVA is NOT checked. In the "external filters" select "Add filters" and add the Cyberlink VC1 decoder.

You sure that actually gets used? Last I checked the Cyberlink VC1 decoder doesn't work outside PDVD, in which case MPC will fallback to another decoder.

(you can check by right-clicking when playing video, looking under filters)

By the way, your image quality probs with coreavc are probably down to it using different levels (config, select pc or video/tv levels). It shouldn't look any different other than that.

jong1

05-13-08, 11:24 AM

MPC-HC has its own DXVA accelerated VC-1 decoder so it is probably using that.

Luar Azul

05-13-08, 12:01 PM

You sure that actually gets used? Last I checked the Cyberlink VC1 decoder doesn't work outside PDVD, in which case MPC will fallback to another decoder.

(you can check by right-clicking when playing video, looking under filters)

By the way, your image quality probs with coreavc are probably down to it using different levels (config, select pc or video/tv levels). It shouldn't look any different other than that.

Yes, I'm absolutely sure, but I didn't notice that the MPC internal decoder was also being used!! More specifically if I select the cyberlink splitter then the Cyberlink VC-1 decoder is used. If I select the Haali splitter then the MPC decoder is used. Both of them use hardware acceleration and work rather well. But I have to say that in my system the MPC internal decoder works way better (smoother).

The surprising thing is that without this addition of the Final Codecs the MPC intenal decoder didn't work at all with these files. And now it works flawlessly and with HA. The CPU works at around 20-30% so it's not exactly like PDVD (where it's close to zero). But I'm thoroughly happy. For the first time the graphics card is actually doing what I expected!!!

You're probably right regarding Coreavc, and there's probably a better way of doing what I described too, I really don't know much about all of this. :o

Thanks for all your help. You're Great arfster!!!! :)

PS - I should probably add that I've heard about the Final Codecs package in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVIVO#Software_support)where they say that: "Final Codecs 2008 New Year version (1.7.0908) [2], a Chinese cracked version of the CyberLink's VC-1 Decoder, allowing the utilization of DXVA for full hardware VC-1 video decoding via UVD when played on four major media players which was not supported, including Media Player Classic, KMPlayer, BSPlayer and Windows Media Player, with closed subtitles" I'm not sure if this is relevant or not!! Thanks again and to ExDeus too!! :)

MPC-HC has its own DXVA accelerated VC-1 decoder so it is probably using that.

Yes!! MPC-HC team rocks!!!! :D

Dee_NA

05-13-08, 12:11 PM

Someone have any knowledge about the Visiontek Radeon HD 2400 PRO 256MB Overclocked Video Card - Black Box Edition, or VisionTek 256MB HD 2600 PRO Graphics Card - Black Box Edition and if VisionTek is better than the Diamond Radeon HD 2400 PRO? Just asking since I'm considering going with the VisionTek.

bobbyrr

05-13-08, 01:44 PM

JimmyFace

05-13-08, 07:33 PM

Hi guys,

Do VC1 and AVC hd codecs need to be calibrated differently? I rented the Pan's Labrinth Bluray disc and am using PowerDVD 7. I immediately noticed that the blacks were crushed. After applying various registry hacks found, I am quite certain that AVC is using PC Levels and looks perfect, however this one movie VC1 seems wrong. Would it simply be that I need to recalibrate my display for VC1 because it uses a different decoder? Or is it possible that AVC is using PC Levels and VC1 is not?

I tried both PowerDVD and Media Player Home Cinemas internal decoder and both look off. Any advice here would be great. It took me a while to determine why Pan's Labrinth was different but then I noticed it was using VC1 whereas every other piece of HD content I have MKV and Bluray has been using AVC.

I have purchased the DVE HD Basics Blu-ray disc which also uses VC1 so I should be able to confirm if it's simply a calibration problem or a video versus pc problem but any advice would be great.

arfster

05-13-08, 08:06 PM

JimmyFace

05-13-08, 09:00 PM

Yes, I did find it odd that nobody was complaining about it. I will do some further testing. I haven't tried the Avivo brightness/contrast settings to reverse to video to see what that does. Once I get my DVE disc I could put this to bed and I will report my findings here.

I am glad I at least narrowed it down to VC1 as the difference. I am finding it very difficult to eyeball the differences of the PC to Video levels switch on this one movie because it is so dark. Once I can verify with the DVE disc that the blacks are not being crushed I can try a calibration from there.

My hope was that I could calibrate once and have it somewhat comparable across SD and HD as per one of the registry tweaks in your 2600 tweak guide but my findings have been that VC1 is not calibrated the same and/or using the same levels (video or pc) as AVC.

I was able to get the picture to look quite good by eyeball adjusting the PowerDVD profile (I typically just use Original) but I really prefer to do my calibration on the projector side.

clicq

05-13-08, 09:24 PM

I have discovered a partial solution for the problem: (fixes the image quality over HDMI, but breks audio over HDMI).

In researching the problem, I found others having a curiously similar problem, and the belief was that the ATI dvi-hdmi dongle was outputing Video levels=16-236 instead of PC levels=0-255.

Following another's recommendation, I bought a generic dvi-hdmi dongle; I then attached it, restarted the computer, and then witnessed that the colours were FINALLY as they should appear. The HDMI connection now matches the same image quality as the DSUB connection and that of an Nvidia card's HDMI output.

Thanks for reporting back! Now if only ATI would just put the option in their drivers as to what video levels to use with their HDMI adapter!

JimmyFace

05-13-08, 09:55 PM

When I used a generic dongle with my 2600XT my projector wouldn't even pick up the video signal. Previously I had a GeForce 6600GT with that same generic dongle, and the projector picked up the video fine. I had to use the ATI dongle to get video period.

Richardw322

05-13-08, 10:03 PM

JimmyFace

05-14-08, 12:29 AM

Well I got the correct black level for Pan's Labrinth, however only in Media Player Classic Home Cinema. I am using Overlay, with MPC Video Decoder and there is full acceleration. I had to manually add "WMVideo Decoder DMO" to the External Filter list and block it before MPC Video Decoder would show the proper black level. I was trying to use PowerDVD's VC1 filter called "Cyberlink VC-1 Decoder (PDVD 7.x)" by adding it as an external filter however it would never kick in and "WMVideo Decoder DMO" would be used instead.

Anyway the difference in picture is drastic with this movie. It goes from completely unwatchable in the dark scenes, to perfect. The problem is the MPC Video Decoder doesn't have the subtitles, and it seems a tad glitchy. The odd picture jump here and there even though it is accelerating.

I still don't know why PowerDVD is not capable of displaying the proper black on this VC1 movie regardless of which settings I change in the registry.

I think the problem is tied to VRM9, because when I choose that as the output instead of Overlay, it looks the same as PowerDVD and I believe PowerDVD uses VRM9 to display VC1. Any advice would be great.

arfster

05-14-08, 09:05 AM

Jimmy: are you in XP?

There is one possible set of circumstances where what you report might happen, where expansion only happens with acceleration. If that isn't working, and I think the wmvideo decoder under XP won't accelerate with ATI, then you get different levels between that and with (accelerated) h264.

JimmyFace

05-14-08, 01:36 PM

I'm in XP yes. The other problem with testing this, is I think some of the settings stick (levels not expanded when I change the registry settings), when fooling around with PowerDVD and then only a reboot will ensure your settings are reflecting what you set them at. WM Video Decoder did not accelerate. I only have a P4 3.0hz so I know when 1080p is accelerated or not as it brings my machine to it's knees. I haven't tested between turning acceleration on and off to see if that affects the expansion but I will tonight and report back.

I'm just happy I saw how the movie should look, so at least I know I'm not crazy and I can officially rule out calibration problems. It's definitely an expansion problem and I think the problem lies with VMR9.

JimmyFace

05-14-08, 08:42 PM

The acceleration on or off affects nothing and the 16 and 86 tweak does nothing in the catalyst control center settings. I actually turned everything up to full and unchecked use application settings and it had no affect on PowerDVD. I wish the levels worked like CoreAVC where you simply use input output checkboxes for TV and PC settings.

I tried the ColorSpace_Option, VRMCCCStatus and VMRCCStatus reg settings at 1 and 3 and nothing seems to correct this.

JimmyFace

05-14-08, 08:47 PM

I little progress. Haali's video renderer actually allows you to specify both the YUV colorspace and the Luma Range AKA TV/PC output level. So at least now I am using this combined with PowerDVDs H.264/AVC decoder in Media Player Home Cinema to get correct levels but no HA. I can't get the VC1 decoder to work though.

JimmyFace

05-14-08, 10:07 PM

Another weird thing about this Pan's Labrinth is that when I check the profile of the m2ts file it says it's Advanced@3 instead of High@4.1.

Al Sherwood

05-15-08, 01:42 PM

Here is my situation. The HTPC currently has a Athlon X2 3800 and a 2400pro in it. I want to upgrade a different machine, (it has a Athlon XP 3200!!!) and use the 2400 in that and get either a 2600pro or a 3650pro. My choices from Newegg are:

HIS Hightech H260PRF256EDDN-R Radeon HD 2600PRO 256MB 64-bit GDDR2 PCI HDCP 49.99
Item #: N82E16814161194

SAPPHIRE 100207L Radeon HD 2600PRO 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express x16 HDCP 59.99
Item #: N82E16814102152

SAPPHIRE 100236L Radeon HD 3650 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express 2.0 x HDCP 64.99
Item #: N82E16814102726

ASUS EAH3650 SILENT MAGIC/HTDP/512M Radeon HD 3650 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 HDCP 67.99
Item #: N82E16814121243

Now, I don't do games, (Age of Empires 1 doesn't count, right?) so that is no issue. The 2400 doesn't do deinterlacing well, and I only have a 720p TV right now, but I want to get ready for 1080P and Blue Ray. In this case, is it worth going to the 3650? Also, how would the 64 bit bus work with my setup? I am thinking that would be more important with games. If that HIS card would do what I want it would mean 2 gig of memory, or maybe a bigger CPU. Anybody have any thoughts on this? Arfster?

Richard, I had a Diamond HD2600Pro with 512 MB of memory, it worked fine for all HD resolutions and worked well with PowerDVD. I would have stayed with that card until recently it became cranky about coming back after a restart, even though it was under warranty, the cost to ship it back and forth across the border would have been prohibative. (I have some posts about this a few pages back).

I considered the ASUS EAH3650 SILENT MAGIC, but read some posts about requirments for specific drivers and software from ASUS themselves. I felt that I wanted to be able to use regular ATI drivers as needed.

I recently installed a Diamond HD3650 512MB, and since the physical installation didn't recognize the previous drivers I uninstalled the CAT 7.7 suite and threw caution to the wind and went with CAT 8.4...

Everything is working great, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD played, HA stayed checked and the CPU usage hasn't really changed from the HD2600Pro.

I have a Vista 32 system with 2 GB of main memory, PowerDVD 3730d, HD3650 512MB, LG Supermulti-Blu drive.

My 0.02 cents, go with the Sapphire 3650...

Wo0zy

05-15-08, 02:28 PM

I have discovered a partial solution for the problem: (fixes the image quality over HDMI, but breks audio over HDMI).

In researching the problem, I found others having a curiously similar problem, and the belief was that the ATI dvi-hdmi dongle was outputing Video levels=16-236 instead of PC levels=0-255.

Following another's recommendation, I bought a generic dvi-hdmi dongle; I then attached it, restarted the computer, and then witnessed that the colours were FINALLY as they should appear. The HDMI connection now matches the same image quality as the DSUB connection and that of an Nvidia card's HDMI output.

However, because of this fix, you will lose the ability to send aduio over HDMI.

Thanks to all who helped me by providing input, and I hope this information helps anyone else experiencing the same problem.

Wow. Now that is interesting. Are you able to test BD playback?

I thought ATi always expanded BD playback to PC levels. If the adapter stops this from happening what exactly do we end up with?

Wo0zy

jong1

05-15-08, 02:36 PM

bobbyrr seems to have a specific problem, but more generally it has been confirmed by several people that if you use the ATI Dongle the driver converts everything on output from PC levels (0-255) to video levels (16-235). It also outputs as YCbCr instead of RGB.

Note: this happens as the signal is being sent over HDMI it does not affect the desktop, so HD video still has video black (16) represented as "0" in a screengrab. Also photos are correctly displayed (if your display device is calibrated for video levels) as they too are converted from 0-255 to 16-235.

So HD (and SD with the expansion registry fix) actually goes through 2 conversions - from 16-235 to 0-255 and then back to 16-235, but it seems internal 10-bit processing stops this from causing image degradation.

Wo0zy

05-15-08, 02:43 PM

jong1

05-15-08, 03:09 PM

Yep. certainly that works here (with a 3850). All my devices share one input to my TV (muxed through my AVR) and with the ATI dongle all use the same levels.

"the desktop" inc. photos and HD video work by default. But for SD to work you need to use the UseBT601CSC="1" fix in the registry, otherwise it is not expanded and then gets further contracted and gives muddy greys and dull whites.

madshi

05-15-08, 03:21 PM

jong1

05-15-08, 03:35 PM

The dongle results in double conversion not only from video levels to PC levels and back, but also from YCbCr to RGB and back. I don't like the idea.

FWIW, the dongle itself does not do the conversions, it's the graphics card. I switched the ATI dongle with a normal adapter without rebooting - and the graphics card still output YCbCr through the normal adapter. Then I rebooted and got RGB output. Then I switched the normal adapter with the ATI dongle (again without rebooting) and still got RGB. So it seems that the graphics card checks for the dongle once during booting and then never again. Ok, maybe disabling the display and reenabling would have a similar effect as rebooting, haven't tried that.

I find the dongle solution bad. BTB and WTW information is cut off and double conversions are done for levels and color format. I'm using a normal adapter now. Have calibrated my display to PC levels. I just wish I could use the Haali Renderer without getting tearing, then I could finally enjoy proper video levels without cut off BTB/WTW...I did mention the YCbCr conversion above too.

I understand your point, in principle, but in practice I have not seen any negative impact of this process and it does mean that all PC media use the same levels and they can share an input with real "video" devices without recalibrating the display (good for video routed through an AVR). I would certainly prefer this was selectable in the driver, rather than forced on you by the dongle. I would also prefer it if HD video, at least, went through totally unmolested. Not sure this is possible for SD though as at the very least it would need converting from BT.601 to BT.709.

madshi

05-15-08, 03:40 PM

I understand your point, in principle, but in practice I have not seen any negative impact of this process
You mean besides cutting off BTB and WTW? ;)

HT Slider

05-15-08, 03:40 PM

OK. Thanks,

So you're saying calibrate the display to video levels and all content regardless of format (video or otherwise) will be displayed correctly?

Wo0zy

I can confirm that when the ATI HDMI dongle is used that TV levels (16-235) are received by the HDTV. If a generic DVI->HDMI cable is used, PC levels (0-255) are received by the HDTV. My father's Media Center is hooked up this way (using ATI's HDMI dongle) and his Olevia 747i displays correct grey levels with his Media Center PC right out of the box (and the HDTV is using TV levels).

I can also confirm that if DVI is used (either DVI-D->DVI-D or DVI->HDMI) that if you crank up the overall (not AVIVO specific) brightness to +15 and the contrast to ~85% that TV levels are (essentially) received by the HDTV. This also produces a correct image at the HDTV for pictures, the desktop, video games as well as video (of course my statement assumes that the HDTV operates using video levels). My Media Center and Toshiba HDTV are hooked up using DVI-D and I have to use the overall +15/85% adjustment to get video, desktop, video games, pictures, etc. to display correctly. If I make the +15/85% adjustment instead within the AVIVO settings, I end up with correct grey levels when video is processed using DXVA, but incorrect grey levels for desktop, video games, pictures, and software decoded video. The bad news is if I hook up a second monitor that uses PC levels, the image is washed out and I have no work around to get correct grey levels on both my HDTV and the monitor.

One major problem occurs where an HDTV operates using PC levels (0-255) and it is connected using ATI's HDMI dongle. In this situation the HDTV produces a washed out image. Some newer HDTVs flip back and forth between using PC and TV levels depending on the resolution (video timing) used. With some HDTVs when 720p or 1080p is used they require/use TV levels and when other supported resolutions are used (as an example 1366x768 that some use natively) they require/use PC levels. In this situation the best work around seems to be to pick up a generic DVI->HDMI dongle or cable if you want to use the native 1366x768. Unfortunately this breaks audio over HDMI.

Hopefully ATI will add a toggle to the video driver at some point to allow us to select PC or video output levels within the display control tabs within CCC.

arfster

05-15-08, 03:46 PM

I just wish I could use the Haali Renderer without getting tearing, then I could finally enjoy proper video levels without cut off BTB/WTW...

Even that's no solution, because Haali Renderer's bt709 matrix is dodgy.

The whole thing is a complete dog's breakfast, but as ATI can't be bothered fixing things we don't have any solution.

madshi

05-15-08, 04:31 PM

Even that's no solution, because Haali Renderer's bt709 matrix is dodgy.
That's what ffdshow's RGB32HQ conversion is made for... ;)

HT Slider

05-15-08, 04:33 PM

The dongle results in double conversion not only from video levels to PC levels and back, but also from YCbCr to RGB and back. I don't like the idea.

...

I find the dongle solution bad. BTB and WTW information is cut off and double conversions are done for levels and color format. I'm using a normal adapter now. Have calibrated my display to PC levels. I just wish I could use the Haali Renderer without getting tearing, then I could finally enjoy proper video levels without cut off BTB/WTW...

For an HDTV that only supports TV grey levels (16-235), there really isn't any better option though. Somewhere the video needs to be converted to TV levels and it may as well be processed using the higher bandwidth PC levels before being "compressed" into TV levels by the video card. With my system I don't use a dongle and instead use +15 brightness/85% contrast to convert the output to TV levels. This too is not ideal, but at least it works reasonably well.

I agree with the theory that double conversions is not ideal, but in practice I don't think you'll see any difference in image quality. Of course for HDTVs that can be switched to work with PC grey levels, this is definitely desirable compared to standard TV levels. My HDTV refuses to do anything with levels below 15 or above 235 so I cannot recalibrate my HDTV for PC levels (I've tried and 0-15 display at the same level as 15 and 235-255 display at the same level as 235).

One thing I have (just now) been thinking of trying is to pick up a DVI to HDMI cable and using the ATI DVI->HDMI dongle on the back of my card. This way the ATI video card will output TV grey levels due to the DVI->HDMI dongle and I can use the DVI to HDMI cable backwards to feed the HDMI connection to the DVI port on my HDTV (my HDTV does not have HDMI, only DVI). My thinking is possibly ATI will do a better job of PC to TV grey level conversion when the dongle is installed when compared to my current brightness/contrast adjustment in CCC. Even if the image quality is the same, this will also allow me to run with default brightness/contrast settings plus I can install a second monitor and it will produce a proper image (currently when a second monitor is installed the monitor produces a washed out image).

As far as YCbCr/RGB conversion, there isn't any YCbCr/RGB conversion going on with the ATI DVI->HDMI dongle (at least not in the true sense - there is the level changes that have already been discussed). DVI and HDMI both use identical digital image formats (only DVI has the ability to handle a double link and HDMI can only handle a single link). Both use TMDS for digital transmission.

DVI-A (analog) supports RGB (not YCbCr) so there is no analog signal carried through HDMI, hence no analog conversion. ATI does sell a DVI->component dongle that produces YCbCr output, but this is a different dongle.

HT Slider

05-15-08, 05:18 PM

After posting the comment above, I decided to investigate color space conversion in more detail. Even though we normally talk about a simple 16-235 vs 0-255 grey level difference, there is actually quite a bit more to it - and it is related to YCbCr vs the various RGB specs (as mentioned by madshi and jong1).

Looking at the math used to convert between PC and TV levels, it looks like there are actual resultant color changes that occur due to the intensity changes for the various color components.

Ever since we switched over to DVI and brought HD capabilities on-line with my HDPC (Blue-ray, HD-DVD, HD Recorded TV), we have experienced strange issues with "glowing" objects in very dark scenes. For example in the Blue-ray, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, in many scenes chairs and other dark objects appear to slightly "glow" a solid color; typically red, but some objects are blue. The issue is quite minor and my wife and children don't notice it unless I specifically point it out, but it is there.

Looking at the color space conversion math required to switch between PC and TV levels, I could easily see errors in simply cranking up the brightness and dropping the contrast (as many of us are) causing these issues.

If my theory is correct, I expect that if I did pick up an HDMI to DVI cable and connect our HDTV using the ATI DVI->HDMI dongle along with the DVI to HDMI cable that these glowing objects might go away.

Are there any colorspace conversion experts out there that can confirm or deny my theory?

Richardw322

05-15-08, 06:01 PM

Richard, I had a Diamond HD2600Pro with 512 MB of memory, it worked fine for all HD resolutions and worked well with PowerDVD. I would have stayed with that card until recently it became cranky about coming back after a restart, even though it was under warranty, the cost to ship it back and forth across the border would have been prohibative. (I have some posts about this a few pages back).

I considered the ASUS EAH3650 SILENT MAGIC, but read some posts about requirments for specific drivers and software from ASUS themselves. I felt that I wanted to be able to use regular ATI drivers as needed.

I recently installed a Diamond HD3650 512MB, and since the physical installation didn't recognize the previous drivers I uninstalled the CAT 7.7 suite and threw caution to the wind and went with CAT 8.4...

Everything is working great, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD played, HA stayed checked and the CPU usage hasn't really changed from the HD2600Pro.

I have a Vista 32 system with 2 GB of main memory, PowerDVD 3730d, HD3650 512MB, LG Supermulti-Blu drive.

My 0.02 cents, go with the Sapphire 3650...

Thanks, Al, I concidered the Asus because the 2400pro I have is an Asus passive cooled model, but I didn't pick up on the driver problem. So one vote for the Saphire 3650!!

jong1

05-15-08, 06:40 PM

You mean besides cutting off BTB and WTW? ;)I know you are baiting me here, but i'll go with it anyway! :)

Clearly if your display is calibrated for video levels BTB and WTW are not going to be visible anyway, nor should they be. Indeed I have read of the potential impact on neighbouring pixels of BTB and WTW values, but again can't say I have noticed any practical impact on the image quality. That may be a limitation of my eyes and/or display, but since this is a professional calibrated setup and I am very fussy, my guess is that most, even in our select group, will not notice and the difference is similar to that "noticed" when switching from good quality to "exotic" cabling! ;)

djos

05-15-08, 06:45 PM

I know you are baiting me here, but i'll go with it anyway! :)

Clearly if your display is calibrated for video levels BTB and WTW are not going to be visible anyway, nor should they be. Indeed I have read of the potential impact on neighbouring pixels of BTB and WTW values, but again can't say I have noticed any practical impact on the image quality. That may be a limitation of my eyes and/or display, but since this is a professional calibrated setup and I am very fussy, my guess is that most, even in our select group, will not notice and the difference is similar to that "noticed" when switching from good quality to "exotic" cabling! ;)

I agree, my 50" Pioneer 50MXE20 Plasma (Professional Version) is ISF calibrated for Video and BTB/WTW is completely irrelevant! I really dont know why some folk insist on making and issue out of this? :rolleyes:

arfster

05-15-08, 06:55 PM

If it does matter at all, it's going to be where you're postprocessing significantly - sharpening, deinterlacing etc - as it gives the card more info to work with (continuation of subtle objects and textures, esp. shadows).

For prog films there's minimal postprocessing involved though (I prefer literally none at all), and even if it did affect scaling that's not a factor for HD.

leeperry

05-15-08, 07:11 PM

hehe, I guess you guys saw my colorspace comparison on doom9 ? :D

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1137196&postcount=1868

anyhow I'm crazy about HR smoothness, but what I like in EVR is how the ATi drivers enhance the picture.

like some dynamic contrast or unsharp masking, I'm not sure ?! but it gives a stunning 3D look.

anyhow my goal would be getting the ATi drivers enhancements in HR.....that would be the shiznit :eek:

It works with the built-in Direct3D renderers of KMP....so why not ? :(

if I recall well, the 7.11 crysis drivers did have a sharpness control.

I think some newer drivers also had it ?! 8.1 ?

and there's also an unrelated sharpen entry in the registry I think ?

JimmyFace

05-16-08, 12:59 AM

I have the ATI Dongle and a projector that picks up the signal as YCbCr/YPBPR. I calibrated with an SD DVE disc. I have the reg setting to make SD and HD the same. So why is it that HD only looked correct when I used Haali Video Renderer set to PC level if the ATI Dongle is forcing it to Video Level? Once I finally used the HD Calibration disc, and calibrated against (Video Level), then HD in PowerDVD looked great.

I guess my question is why does the SD DVE disc calibration look correct for HD only when Haali is forcing it to PC levels?

madshi

05-16-08, 02:23 AM

For an HDTV that only supports TV grey levels (16-235), there really isn't any better option though. Somewhere the video needs to be converted to TV levels and it may as well be processed using the higher bandwidth PC levels before being "compressed" into TV levels by the video card.
Huh? You make it sounds as if the original YCbCr data would be PC levels and to make it work for video levels it needs to be converted to video levels. But that's exactly the opposite of what is true! The movie is stored in YCbCr and covers the full video levels from 0-255. I mean the original YCbCr data does contain BTB and WTW information. So a proper YCbCr to RGB conversion ends up in video levels and not in PC levels! Having YCbCr converted to RGB with PC levels is wrong cause it not only converts the color space but also expands the signal so that BTB and WTW (which are contained in the original YCbCr data) is lost.

No (good) consumer electronics device (like DVD player, Blu-Ray player etc) ever does any calculations with PC levels. They always only use video levels - and that's how it's supposed to be done.

I agree with the theory that double conversions is not ideal, but in practice I don't think you'll see any difference in image quality.
Think again... ;)

As far as YCbCr/RGB conversion, there isn't any YCbCr/RGB conversion going on with the ATI DVI->HDMI dongle (at least not in the true sense - there is the level changes that have already been discussed). DVI and HDMI both use identical digital image formats (only DVI has the ability to handle a double link and HDMI can only handle a single link). Both use TMDS for digital transmission.

DVI-A (analog) supports RGB (not YCbCr) so there is no analog signal carried through HDMI, hence no analog conversion. ATI does sell a DVI->component dongle that produces YCbCr output, but this is a different dongle.
I've no idea what you're talking about. Both DVI and HDMI support two different color formats when using digital transport: RGB and YCbCr. Graphics cards usually calculate everything in RGB and then also output RGB. However, when the ATI dongle is used, ATI converts the RGB backbuffers to YCbCr and then outputs YCbCr digitally over DVI/HDMI. If you don't call this a conversion then you don't know what a conversion is. The conversion from RGB to YCbCr is not done by the dongle, though, but by the graphics card.

Clearly if your display is calibrated for video levels BTB and WTW are not going to be visible anyway, nor should they be.
Actually some ISF calibrators calibrate the display in such a way that one step below absolute black and one step above absolute white it still (barely) visible.

jong1

05-16-08, 03:09 AM

If it does matter at all, it's going to be where you're postprocessing significantly - sharpening, deinterlacing etc - as it gives the card more info to work with (continuation of subtle objects and textures, esp. shadows). And of course for the vast majority of us we are doing all of this processing on the HTPC, where the BTB and WTW data is still available to the decoders and renderer.
No (good) consumer electronics device (like DVD player, Blu-Ray player etc) ever does any calculations with PC levels. They always only use video levels - and that's how it's supposed to be done.Don't get me wrong though! I do agree with you. If at all possible ATI should be a lot cleverer about minimising the processing done, especially on HD video. I would prefer that the desktop worked in the 16-235 range and data was kept in YCbCr. That photos (the desktop) were converted to this. That SD video conversion was limited to changing the colorspace to BT.709, so it will display correctly with everything else.

But there may be some limitations in Windows to what is possible.

madshi

05-16-08, 04:23 AM

But there may be some limitations in Windows to what is possible.
I don't think there's any limitation in Windows. It's all about what the driver decides to do.

HT Slider

05-16-08, 04:31 AM

madshi, unfortunately I found your post quite confusing and contrary to several things that I considered fact (I definitely could be wrong with many of my "facts" though...).

When you talk about loosing quality by converting between YCbCr and RGB are you talking about lost quality due to different levels of sub-sampling, just grey level differences, colorspace differences, etc. and which YCbCr standard and RGB standard are you talking about? Why do you think image quality is severely sacrificed if output at TV (video) levels?

Personally I've always considered if we are discussing a native YCbCr vs RGB conversion without specifying colorspace or sub-sampling that we are talking about the very simple fundamental relationship (Y=R+G+B, Cb=B-Y, Cr=R-Y).

When you talk about PC vs video levels, what exactly do you mean?

I've always considered "Internet discussions" regarding PC grey levels to mean 0-255 visible (distinguishable) and TV (video) grey levels to mean 15(or 16)-235 visible, regardless of whether sRGB or YCbCr is used and regardless of subsampling.

My assumption/understanding has been that codecs, DXVA and other video card processing always does all of its internal calculations the same way - regardless if an HDMI dongle is present or not. I also assume that if an HDMI dongle is present that as a final step, the output is converted from monitor friendly levels to TV friendly levels.

The other thing that I've always assumed (potentially incorrectly) is all of the video is converted to the full 4:4:4 32-bit at some point, regardless if it starts off as 4:2:0, 4:2:2, etc. (and this is why I assumed it doesn't matter if it is eventually output using 24-bits 0-255, 16-235 or even subsampled to 4:2:2 if that is what the display supports).

Huh? You make it sounds as if the original YCbCr data would be PC levels and to make it work for video levels it needs to be converted to video levels. But that's exactly the opposite of what is true! The movie is stored in YCbCr and covers the full video levels from 0-255. I mean the original YCbCr data does contain BTB and WTW information. So a proper YCbCr to RGB conversion ends up in video levels and not in PC levels! Having YCbCr converted to RGB with PC levels is wrong cause it not only converts the color space but also expands the signal so that BTB and WTW (which are contained in the original YCbCr data) is lost.

I was under the impression that TV, DVD and BD/HD-DVD actually uses the visible range 15-235, not 0-255. Sure 0-255 is transmitted, but everything beyond 235 and below 15 is WTW or BTB and is therefore not actually displayed. I was also under the impression that this is the same for what HDTVs are able to display if correctly calibrated (they might display just a "hint" of BTB and WTW).

Am I incorrect?

No (good) consumer electronics device (like DVD player, Blu-Ray player etc) ever does any calculations with PC levels. They always only use video levels - and that's how it's supposed to be done.

But if a PC does its calculations using 32-bit 4:4:4, it essentially upconverts everything to a higher bandwidth so no detail should really be lost. It "might" throw away everything below 15 and above 236, but a properly calibrated display doesn't display this anyway.

Again am I wrong?

Why do video drivers always talk about 32-bit colors if they don't upconvert 24-bit to 32-bit?

I've no idea what you're talking about. Both DVI and HDMI support two different color formats when using digital transport: RGB and YCbCr. Graphics cards usually calculate everything in RGB and then also output RGB. However, when the ATI dongle is used, ATI converts the RGB backbuffers to YCbCr and then outputs YCbCr digitally over DVI/HDMI. If you don't call this a conversion then you don't know what a conversion is. The conversion from RGB to YCbCr is not done by the dongle, though, but by the graphics card.

Here, after a little research, I can see I was incorrect in my assumptions. I always thought that sRGB was used through HDMI/DVI, but now I see it actually does support sRGB 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:4:4 as well as YCbCr 4:2:2 and xvYCC 4:4:4.

Are all HDTVs required to support a subset or all of these formats?

Regardless of how this works, as long as the conversion is done as a final step and the conversion is into a format supported by the HDTV, I don't see how there is any lost quality.

The only thing I can imagine is if an HDTV (mine for example) doesn't properly support the sRGB colorspace and if that is what DVI on an ATI card outputs by default, this could easily produce colorspace errors. In my case, again, I suspect installing the ATI HDMI dongle and using an HDMI->DVI cable to my HDTV might fix my "glowing objects" issue.

Can anyone confirm that when the HDMI dongle is used that the default output is YCbCr 4:4:4 using BT.709 colorspace?

I assume that the default output when DVI is used is sRGB 4:4:4 (and not the BT.709 colorspace).

HT Slider

05-16-08, 04:53 AM

And of course for the vast majority of us we are doing all of this processing on the HTPC, where the BTB and WTW data is still available to the decoders and renderer.
Don't get me wrong though! I do agree with you. If at all possible ATI should be a lot cleverer about minimising the processing done, especially on HD video. I would prefer that the desktop worked in the 16-235 range and data was kept in YCbCr. That photos (the desktop) were converted to this. That SD video conversion was limited to changing the colorspace to BT.709, so it will display correctly with everything else.

But there may be some limitations in Windows to what is possible.

What value do you see BTB and WTW providing? We can't see it so it shouldn't matter if it isn't displayed.

An argument could be made that converting to PC levels actually should increase the image quality:

- Consider that if you always strictly maintain BT.709 4:2:2 (or 4:2:0)colorspace throughout all image processing that the processing can only make use of 24-bits and of that, only the 16-235 range in each of the 8-bit YCbCr. Worse than that, only the luma data is maintained for each pixel. Cb and Cr is only provided for every 2 or every 4 (block) pixels and this produces additional image flaws.

- On the other hand, if you first convert BT.709 4:2:2 or BT.709 4:2:0 to sRGB 4:4:4 by expanding everything between 16-235 into 0-1023 or 0-2047 (10-bits minimum assuming 32-bit colors are used) and expanding the pixel count from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4. Now all of the image processing, noise filtering, edge processing, etc. is all performed using the full 32-bit bandwidth 4:4:4 video.

- In the end, if a PC monitor or HDTV is used, supporting sRGB at the full 32-bits, the image quality could actually be superior to if BT.709 24-bit colorspace had been maintained throughout.

- If an HDTV that only supports BT.709 is used instead, the 32-bit 4:4:4 video is compressed so 16-235 is used (or equivalent if the display supports 32-bit 4:4:4 output - note that according to wikipedia for HDMI, up to 16-bits can be used for each "color" if the HDTV supports this) and converted to YCbCr BT.709 colorspace. Still, the image quality is likely to be at least as good as if BT.709 24-bit 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 had been maintained throughout. The only thing missing is potential loss of BTB and WTW content. In reality, due to the increased number of bits used during the BT.709 to 32-bit conversion, ATI does keep a little BTB and WTW content. This can be demonstrated by the fact that when test DVDs, test BD/HD-DVDs and test patterns on recorded TV are displayed that we can actually see both BTB and WTW content. I have also noticed that when a PC monitor is used (point above this one) that again both a small amount of BTB and WTW is maintained and displayed on the monitor.

In summary, perhaps all that is really needed is an output toggle switch in CCC for each display that allows us to force the output to be HDTV friendly YCbCr 4:4:4 using a BT.709 colorspace or monitor friendly sRGB 4:4:4.

leeperry

05-16-08, 05:19 AM

I can remember some guy gave a registry entry for sharpen ?!

he said it was in the ATi drivers since forever, and didn't have anything to do with the "Edge Enhancement" thingie.

I've browsed a lot of pages on this topic, but I can't seem to find it ?!

anyone recalls what it is ?

TIA,

madshi

05-16-08, 05:28 AM

When you talk about loosing quality by converting between YCbCr and RGB are you talking about lost quality due to different levels of sub-sampling, just grey level differences, colorspace differences, etc. and which YCbCr standard and RGB standard are you talking about?
Check out this post:

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8556937&&#post8556937

When you talk about PC vs video levels, what exactly do you mean?
PC levels means that black is 0/0/0 (RGB). Video levels means that black is 16/16/16 (RGB).

My assumption/understanding has been that codecs, DXVA and other video card processing always does all of its internal calculations the same way - regardless if an HDMI dongle is present or not. I also assume that if an HDMI dongle is present that as a final step, the output is converted from monitor friendly levels to TV friendly levels.
Virtually all digital video sources are encoded in YCbCr 4:2:0. So DXVA acceleration is working YCbCr color format and not in RGB.

The other thing that I've always assumed (potentially incorrectly) is all of the video is converted to the full 4:4:4 32-bit at some point, regardless if it starts off as 4:2:0, 4:2:2, etc. (and this is why I assumed it doesn't matter if it is eventually output using 24-bits 0-255, 16-235 or even subsampled to 4:2:2 if that is what the display supports).
First of all graphics cards do *NOT* calculate in 32bit the way you believe they do. When a graphics card goes into 32bit mode, that usually means 8bit per color plus 8bit for alpha channel (for half transparency etc). So the data for RGB color information is really only 8bit per color.

But yes, graphics cards usually to convert everything to RGB 32bit sooner or later, but as explained above color information is only 24bit. So it's 4:4:4 24bit.

I was under the impression that TV, DVD and BD/HD-DVD actually uses the visible range 15-235, not 0-255.
Correct.

Sure 0-255 is transmitted, but everything beyond 235 and below 15 is WTW or BTB and is therefore not actually displayed.
Yes and no. Displays should be calibrated so that WTW and BTB are not displayed. However, as I said before, some calibrators calibrate the displays so that the first step of WTW and BTB is still visible (and different from pure black/white). Furthermore, I've read that sometimes movies were intentionally authored with deeper BTB and WTW information to make colors look "right". Sounds strange, but that's what I read. Anyway, I just don't want the graphics card to do any violence to my precious video data. If it cuts off BTB and WTW I'm afraid what else will go wrong...

Why do video drivers always talk about 32-bit colors if they don't upconvert 24-bit to 32-bit?
24bit (3 * 8) is a very odd number for a computer. It's like 17.359 for us humans. 32bit (4 * 8) is much more even. It's like 20.000 for us humans. A 32bit CPU can process 32bit data much faster and easier than 24bit data. All the CPU registers are 32bit. All the CPU instructions are optimized for 32bit data. 32bit is just much easier to work with. BUT - 8 of those 32 bits are usually used for the alpha channel and NOT for color information.

Here, after a little research, I can see I was incorrect in my assumptions. I always thought that sRGB was used through HDMI/DVI, but now I see it actually does support sRGB 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:4:4 as well as YCbCr 4:2:2 and xvYCC 4:4:4.

Are all HDTVs required to support a subset or all of these formats?
I don't know about requirements. But most TVs support both RGB and YCbCr input via HDMI.

Regardless of how this works, as long as the conversion is done as a final step and the conversion is into a format supported by the HDTV, I don't see how there is any lost quality.
Can you understand that YCbCr and RGB are not a simple multiply of each other? I don't know the exact formulas for converting one to the other. But in the end there are some funny calculations going on. If you go from 8bit YCbCr 4:2:0 to 8bit RGB rounding has to be done. If you go back from 8bit RGB to 8bit YCbCr, again rounding has to be done. ANY such conversion costs image quality.

- Consider that if you always strictly maintain BT.709 4:2:2 (or 4:2:0)colorspace throughout all image processing that the processing can only make use of 24-bits and of that, only the 16-235 range in each of the 8-bit YCbCr. Worse than that, only the luma data is maintained for each pixel. Cb and Cr is only provided for every 2 or every 4 (block) pixels and this produces additional image flaws.
First of all a source device shouldn't do *ANY* processing unless it's actually asked to. So ideally a YCbCr 4:2:0 source should just be decoded and sent to the display as it is. Unfortunately HDMI doesn't support YCbCr 4:2:0 transport. But that's not much of a problem. A conversion to YCbCr 4:2:2 is not very complicated and can be done right easily. I believe the hardware decoding chips from Sigma Designs and Broadcom etc output YCbCr 4:2:2, anyway. So ideally the source device should send YCbCr 4:2:2 to the display.

Now if the source is asked to do some processing, obviously it's an advantage to do it in higher than 4:2:2. So let's go to 8bit YCbCr 4:4:4. That'd still be better than to convert YCbCr to 8bit RGB.

Unfortunately graphics cards usually do everything in RGB. So ok, let the graphics card convert everything to RGB. But still we should try to go as low on processing as possible. That means: Convert YCbCr to 8bit RGB - but without expanding colors to PC levels, please! Because if you convert colors to PC levels and later back to video levels, again you have to round the data two times. This is very likely to introduce banding artifacts.

jong1

05-16-08, 07:31 AM

I don't think there's any limitation in Windows. It's all about what the driver decides to do.This is surely great if true. But is it really so that the renderer (VMR9 or EVR) can display without converting to RGB. This would need support for on the fly conversion to RGB when taking a screenshot and also when using an application like Photoshop. Note: I am certainly not recommending using Photoshop on an HTPC, especially one in "video mode" where everything would be being "held internally" as YCbCr 16-235. It is just that technically I am not sure this is even possible and I just don't know how normal Windows applications would cope. Then again, certainly it is beyond my level of knowledge, so I may well be wrong. I can just see it being technically challenging and since no one seems to do it this way I would be surprised if such advanced capabilities were actually in Windows and supported! Your post here seems to agree, I think? :confused:Unfortunately graphics cards usually do everything in RGB. So ok, let the graphics card convert everything to RGB. But still we should try to go as low on processing as possible. That means: Convert YCbCr to 8bit RGB - but without expanding colors to PC levels, please! Because if you convert colors to PC levels and later back to video levels, again you have to round the data two times. This is very likely to introduce banding artifacts.

What value do you see BTB and WTW providing? We can't see it so it shouldn't matter if it isn't displayed.

An argument could be made that converting to PC levels actually should increase the image quality:

- Consider that if you always strictly maintain BT.709 4:2:2 (or 4:2:0)colorspace throughout all image processing that the processing can only make use of 24-bits and of that, only the 16-235 range in each of the 8-bit YCbCr. Worse than that, only the luma data is maintained for each pixel. Cb and Cr is only provided for every 2 or every 4 (block) pixels and this produces additional image flaws.

- On the other hand, if you first convert BT.709 4:2:2 or BT.709 4:2:0 to sRGB 4:4:4 by expanding everything between 16-235 into 0-1023 or 0-2047 (10-bits minimum assuming 32-bit colors are used) and expanding the pixel count from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4. Now all of the image processing, noise filtering, edge processing, etc. is all performed using the full 32-bit bandwidth 4:4:4 video.

- In the end, if a PC monitor or HDTV is used, supporting sRGB at the full 32-bits, the image quality could actually be superior to if BT.709 24-bit colorspace had been maintained throughout.

- If an HDTV that only supports BT.709 is used instead, the 32-bit 4:4:4 video is compressed so 16-235 is used (or equivalent if the display supports 32-bit 4:4:4 output - note that according to wikipedia for HDMI, up to 16-bits can be used for each "color" if the HDTV supports this) and converted to YCbCr BT.709 colorspace. Still, the image quality is likely to be at least as good as if BT.709 24-bit 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 had been maintained throughout. The only thing missing is potential loss of BTB and WTW content. In reality, due to the increased number of bits used during the BT.709 to 32-bit conversion, ATI does keep a little BTB and WTW content. This can be demonstrated by the fact that when test DVDs, test BD/HD-DVDs and test patterns on recorded TV are displayed that we can actually see both BTB and WTW content. I have also noticed that when a PC monitor is used (point above this one) that again both a small amount of BTB and WTW is maintained and displayed on the monitor.

In summary, perhaps all that is really needed is an output toggle switch in CCC for each display that allows us to force the output to be HDTV friendly YCbCr 4:4:4 using a BT.709 colorspace or monitor friendly sRGB 4:4:4.I'm not really disagreeing with you. In fact I have said I cannot see any practical impact on image quality of all this jiggery-pokery. I agree working to a higher level of accuracy in the GPU will help to eliminate any errors in the decoding/conversion process.

However, given arfster's point, it is important that the BTB and WTW data is available during the decoding and scaling stage on the PC so it can be taken into account when processing neighbouring pixels. The point I was making is that fortunately this is the case. BTB and WTW is only "cropped" at the rendering stage at which point all neighbouring pixel values have been determined and should not be affected.

I also do not understand why an ISF calibrator should leave BTB and WTW visible or why having that data should be useful to the display, certainly if it is to receive exclusively native resolution sources; Maybe someone can enlighten me. It sounds like a hangover from an earlier "analogue" age with CRT displays. With a modern plasma/LCD display this just seems guaranteed to ensure that 99.8% of stuff that is supposed to be black in any movie will be ever so slightly not black, for the advantage of seeing something you are not really supposed to see in the first place! :confused: