Hi, we are finished up a little bathroom next to our home theater and are having loads of problems with our plummer and pluming inspectors. The other significant members of the household are very specific and picky about the items they want installed in the bathroom, including the sink. After a long search to find the appropriate sink, our plummer told us that this sink is not on the Massachusetts certified pluming code list. We picked this sink from a store in Boston (didn't order from abroad), and is obviously and clearly sold in the US.

It's just a sink, I don't see any safety issues. Does anyone have any suggestions how to overcome this problem with the code, the plummer, inspector, etc? We had another problem upstairs when redoing the master bathroom trying to put a bidet in place.

Thanks!

Although I have no clue what is going on in Mass with a sink plumbing code list a friend of mine had a similar issue using a new product for a fireplace. He had to contact the manufacturer and got a fax of the UL report to show his inspector.


Contact the Seller or manufacturer. They may have a certificate for that sink that hasn't hit the published list yet. In that case they can fax you a copy to show the inspector.


Another work around is to install the cheapest sink that is on the list. Get the project inspected and after that, substitute the sink of your wifes dreams under the radar.

Another work around is to install the cheapest sink that is on the list. Get the project inspected and after that, substitute the sink of your wifes dreams under the radar.

The problem is that the sink fixtures have very specific installation measurments, and it's hard to find another similar one and then replace it. The plumber has to do the rough-in, which is very dependent on the type of sink.

I contacted the company and they did say that they do not have approval for MA. Apparently, MA is Nazi-like when it comes to plumming codes and fixtures.

Build-permits are a disaster. I really gonna start urging people NOT to pull the permit given the completely sensesless and bureaucratic process around these things.

I would put some leverage on the seller for a remedy if they knew you lived in MA and sold it to you.

I really gonna start urging people NOT to pull the permit given the completely sensesless and bureaucratic process around these things.

That's fine, just so long as you also tell them that they'll never be able to sell their house if they've done work without permits. Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut are VERY sticky when it comes to that. You can also be sued if you sell your house without telling the buyer you've done off-code work.

Most codes exist for very good and valid reasons. Just because you and I don't understand why they're there doesn't invalidate them.


-drin

That's fine, just so long as you also tell them that they'll never be able to sell their house if they've done work without permits. Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut are VERY sticky when it comes to that. You can also be sued if you sell your house without telling the buyer you've done off-code work.

Most codes exist for very good and valid reasons. Just because you and I don't understand why they're there doesn't invalidate them.
-drin

The reason this MA approval list exists is for two reasons: 1) Gather money for the plumbing association, 2) Protect the local sellers.

Why doesn't my electrical inspector give permits to homeowners whereas the MA code allows for that? Because he is protecting the local market. So every electrician that walks into my house wants $120 per receptacle and $200 per can light. Drive 30 miles to NH, and the prices are half that.

We have 3 different family friends that have done work in Newton, MA with no permit and sold their house NO problems. The sellers looks around the house for about 30 minutes, usually checking the basement and such, and signs off on it.

On the other hand, a friend in my town had a contractor do the work with the permits, and found out work was done incorrectly. When he got a lawyer, he sued the construction company and won, and the building inspector that approved the work was already in jail for bribes.

Yes - codes are there to protect the construction MAFIA in MA. Everyone, from legislators, to contractors, to the police is skimming off the taxes in this state. Just look at the Big Dig project and tell mi that isn't true...

I bought my house which had the basement partially finished. Later I realized that certain things were not done to code (no GFCI in the bathroom, no vent in the bathroom, regular lumber as the baseplates). I can only assume the basment was finished without permits. These things were not brought to my attention by the seller, real estate agent, or the inspector that I hired. As an average home buyer, I did not know what to look for. Anyway, my point is houses that have renovations/project that were done without permits do sell, at least in my state.

I think the permit process can be a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

I think the permit process can be a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

I agree completely, and I've had my own permit hassles in the past, but for someone to jump to "It's all a plot by the Mafia" tells me they're the kind of person who wears a tinfoil hat to stop the Men in the Black Helicopters from listening to their thoughts while enroute to Area 51.

-drin

I agree completely, and I've had my own permit hassles in the past, but for someone to jump to "It's all a plot by the Mafia" tells me they're the kind of person who wears a tinfoil hat to stop the Men in the Black Helicopters from listening to their thoughts while enroute to Area 51.

-drin
They should know better. I've tried the tin-foil hats and the voices are still there. I find that only a full faraday cage room is completely effective, although for getting around town a full head enclosing aluminum foil (much more effective than tin) head wrap with wire mesh eye and mouth openings does cut the volume down to a manageable level...

Has anybody figured out how to integrate a faraday cage into their acoustic wall panels?

I'm in the camp that believes that any county that forbids a DIYer is looking after their drinking buddies rather then the public. The correct way is through education and inspection rather then trades income protection.

In our county the adult education department has classes in home electrical, plumbing, deck building and basement finishing. They show up at various home improvement shows and distribute handouts on the correct methods. Various code resources are available on the county web site and the permit and inspection process is homeowner friendly.

That's fine, just so long as you also tell them that they'll never be able to sell their house if they've done work without permits. Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut are VERY sticky when it comes to that. You can also be sued if you sell your house without telling the buyer you've done off-code work.

Most codes exist for very good and valid reasons. Just because you and I don't understand why they're there doesn't invalidate them.


-drin

Depends on which part of these states you live in. I'm in my second house in CT and neither town had much difficulty with DIY or permitted work. When I sold the first house in 2006 the home inspector for the buyer noted some obvious non-permitted work. All I had to do was fix the errors, without a permit, as the work was "in-place" not new work. (The big one I remember was the hot water heater was not 12" off the ground).

As for the new house, the town building/zoning/sanitation inspector is only part time. His office hours are Tues 6-8PM and Sat 8-10 and inspections are 10-12PM. I GC'ed construction of the new house and after the first few meetings and inspections (after I had proven myself) a lot of stuff was OK'ed over the phone or with pictures during office hours.

I also have had friends in RI and MA(NOT Brookline) have similar luck.

Again it all depends on which town you live in Southern New England.

-Skipp

Makes sense, but I still have problems with the 'Mafia' statement.

Think I'll send a couple of the boys round to adjust the OP's attitude, tin foil hat and all. :D

-drin

I'm 6'4" and 300#, I could use the work, Papa needs theater room moola. :p

Has anybody figured out how to integrate a faraday cage into their acoustic wall panels?
Some aluminum screen in your Green Glue layer tied into your ground should do it. :D

Is there any valid reason why a sink needs state approval.. or ANY approval?

This has got to be one of the strangest (I had a different adjective in mind) laws I have heard of.

The faucet is not part of the sink. And I don't see any regulations for faucets. They don't even have to be anti-scald.

For the life of me, I cannot think of any reason what-so-ever to have a sink "approved". What if you wanted to make one?

Tim

The only things I can think of are either:

1. It's so new it hasn't undergone UL testing, in which case it won't be good anywhere in the U.S. (as far as I know)

2. (Stretching a bit but...) Could it possibly not have a grease trap on it?

-drin

I don't think sinks go through any testing or certification. The sink itself is contains no safety mechanisms.

The distance from the faucet to the high water level provides backflow/anti-siphon.

The trap is part of the plumbing, not the sink. You would purchase that separately.

I don't see anything precluding a person from gluing 5 pieces of corian together, drilling a hole in the bottom and connecting a trap.

I have to agree with some of the more pessimistic views regarding the motivation of this legislation.

Tim

I did some research here and what I've determined is that the Mass bureaucrats require ALL plumbing fixtures used in the state to be go through a process of testing and then "registering" their test results with the state to be called "approved" It is basically a rubber stamping process that makes you prove that the plumbing fixture meets the standards appropriate for that item and verified by an independent lab. Like pressure testing of pipe for example.

The sink may very well be just fine but the manufacturer/distributer hasn't felt it worth the effort to jump through the state requirements. I'd like to think that their products meet national standards and have been tested but ???

One standard that they have to have certified is that the fixture is impervious to water. In other words they must have it tested to prove that the sink holds water.

More details buried here:

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=ocaterminal&L=6&L0=Home&L1=Licensee&L2=Division+of+Professional+Licensure+Boards&L3=Board+of+State+Examiners+of+Plumbers+and+Gas+Fitters&L4=Statutes+and+Regulations&L5=Rules+and+Regulations+Governing+Plumbers+and+Gas+Fitters&sid=Eoca&b=terminalcontent&f=dpl_boards_pl_cmr_248cmr1000&csid=Eoca#10.10

I did come across a sentence that said you could use a non-approved device if such use was approved by the board. ($$$)

On a side note about permits and inspections...

There is one AVS member in Europe (Austria, IIRC) who is building a HT. People started asking him questions about permits and such. His answer: No permits required in Austria. Once you buy the house, what you do inside it is your own business. Interesting attitude from "socialist" Europe. Great law for the home owner, but would you want to buy a house from someone who has done lots of "amateur" work with no professional oversight?

I think permits serve a valid and useful purpose. I also think that municipalities that prevent homeowners from doing their own work under permit and getting it inspected are downright "un-American". I don't know whose interests these municipalities are looking out for, but they are not serving the public's best interest.

Regards,
Scott

Gentlemen...if we can keep on topic and avoid the personal banter, I can avoid the paperwork of closing the thread and/or deleting posts...you can delete your own posts. Thanks.

Welcome to my ignore list.

I did some research here and what I've determined is that the Mass bureaucrats require ALL plumbing fixtures used in the state to be go through a process of testing and then "registering" their test results with the state to be called "approved" It is basically a rubber stamping process that makes you prove that the plumbing fixture meets the standards appropriate for that item and verified by an independent lab. Like pressure testing of pipe for example.

Hi BIGmouthinDC,

Thanks for the research. I called the company (LaCava BTW), and they did confirm that none of their products have gone through MA certification given the expense of the process. They do have UL and are legally imported and sold in the US. The shop that sells them in my area is working on resolving the issue, but in the meantime we agreed with our plummer that we take the responsibility if the building inspector does not approve. we are going to put the sink in, if he notices and does not approve, will remove, take the cheapest HD sink that fits in, and then once we pass inspection put it back on. I understand code for saftey reasons (i.e. electrical, gas, water plumming) but this is ridicilous. The next similar brand of sink is Duravit, which is about twice as much for similar design. We will take our chances with Lacava and report back once inspections go through. Again, thank you for the research and the advice.

There is one AVS member in Europe (Austria, IIRC) who is building a HT. People started asking him questions about permits and such. His answer: No permits required in Austria. Once you buy the house, what you do inside it is your own business. Interesting attitude from "socialist" Europe. Great law for the home owner, but would you want to buy a house from someone who has done lots of "amateur" work with no professional oversight?


I don't know about Austria, but my folks own property in both Serbia and Croatia. In Croatia we did a large scale renovation (via contractor), and there were sever inspections and rules to be followed. For example, the roof tiles had to be red color and the window shutters had to be of a certain style. This was to protect the aesthetic nature of the houses in the old neighborhood.

I know that DIY is not as popular in Europe, primarily given the different building style and process of the old properties. Most older houses do not use drywall and insulation, but rather are build from brick and cement. Walls are concrete, so any electrical requires the use of the hammerdrill (they are not hollow). Also, electricity operates a bit differently, they have the breaker panel, and then a distributor from which all the wires run and come back to.

Newer and commerical constructions in Europe nowadays are more similar to the US, utilize steel stud and drywall design.

I think permits serve a valid and useful purpose. I also think that municipalities that prevent homeowners from doing their own work under permit and getting it inspected are downright "un-American". I don't know whose interests these municipalities are looking out for, but they are not serving the public's best interest.

If it's issue of public or private safety, I understand 100%. Otherwise, it's counterintuative to tell the homeowner what kind of sink they can or cannot put their their own home.

Thanks for the research. I called the company (LaCava BTW), and they did confirm that none of their products have gone through MA certification given the expense of the process.

In my research I actually came across the form required for the approval submission. It is really pretty simple and is not much more than a couple of cover pages that you attach to a copy of the independent labs results. The filing fee was $75. Don't ask me to find it again.

If they have UL testing and you could get a hold of the copy of those results maybe you can DIY the approval process or get the store to do it.

I'm just kind of surprised that all manufactureres don't just go through the process and have it done with. Ever notice how many packages of snack food say "Regisitered Penna Dept. of Aggriculture"? That's because Pennsylvania has the toughest requirements and if you want to sell snack food in the state, the label MUST say that, so everyone just does it. Most (I say most since I don't know for sure) of the rest of the states figure if it got past Pennsylvania, it must be OK.

Tom

No permits required in Austria.

It's not just Austria or Europe. When I finished my basement in West Virginia, no permits were necessary. You only needed permits if you were changing the foundation. That was about 10 years ago. Don't know if its still the same or not.

I'm just kind of surprised that all manufactureres don't just go through the process and have it done with. Ever notice how many packages of snack food say "Regisitered Penna Dept. of Aggriculture"? That's because Pennsylvania has the toughest requirements and if you want to sell snack food in the state, the label MUST say that, so everyone just does it. Most (I say most since I don't know for sure) of the rest of the states figure if it got past Pennsylvania, it must be OK.

Tom

I think for certain things it makes sense to do a national certification that would be valid for the states. Smaller companies, or foreign companies that sell limited volume in the US probably do a cost/benefit to getting certification on the state level.

While code and regulations may be derived from a National Building Code, I think the States want their seperate authority, just like cities/towns. It's part of the US decentralized process/setup.

Though this is an clear example of how this hurts the homeowner/consumer, the case with the sink and the MA approved list.

In my research I actually came across the form required for the approval submission. It is really pretty simple and is not much more than a couple of cover pages that you attach to a copy of the independent labs results. The filing fee was $75. Don't ask me to find it again.

Thank you, I will look on the site you posted below and see if I can come up with some documentation for the store.

Thank you, I will look on the site you posted below and see if I can come up with some documentation for the store.

Looked through my sites visited history and found it:

http://www.mass.gov/Eoca/docs/dpl/boards/pl/pl09-000.pdf

I see that UL is an approved lab so if they have those test results.....

Unfortunately, I've dealt with this issue on several projects. Sink basins are required to be tested/certified for health reasons. Basically, the code council feels that if someone has a bloody lip, etc. in the sink any present bacteria could be absorbed into the material (if it is porous of course). Later, someone else washes their face in the sink, etc. and becomes ill. Of course, like many code issues, it's a lot of "what ifs."

However, most jurisdictions only require US independent certification (i.e. UL). I've never dealt with a specific locale that has its own certification beyond that (as they aren't an independent laboratory).

Many of the "designer" sinks found at HD, Lowes, Expo, etc. aren't independently certified, but most people purchasing them aren't dealing with permitted jobs, just a DIY bath remodel. Sorry for your frustration, dealing with building inspectors and local jurisdictions can be a pain.

Find a $5.00 tag sale sink, install it, get final inspections, replace cheap sink with fancy sink.
Done. :D

after reading the first 3 posts i was going to post this, a standard work around for all kinds of ridiculous codes.

for those of you that are educated (likely 100 percent of the people that read this forum), remember, chances are if you have researched a topic minimally you are far ahead of the curve of most code enforcers/writers.


Find a $5.00 tag sale sink, install it, get final inspections, replace cheap sink with fancy sink.
Done. :D

The things we endure in Mass. In my previous home I wanted to do some electrical work, so I went by the town offices to inquire about pulling a permit. I inquired about what I was able to do as a homeowner the reply was "nothing" I was slightly confused and said "nothing" guy says ya "nothing" you need to have a license to do any electrical work or pull a permit. I turn around and said thanks for "nothing".

Later on taking an electrical course the instructor, a licensed electrician thought that was ridiculous, but did state that it's up to the local municipalities as to what homeowners can and can not do. He said in cases like that they are usually looking out for one another, in particular if they are of a union background.

I even met a guy from out west once who was a tile and brick guy coming from out west and belonged to a union. He was relocating here and wanted to get established with the local union. He said "they didn't even want my money, they wouldn't accept me as a member" and the guy had some good references.

The things we endure in Mass. In my previous home I wanted to do some electrical work, so I went by the town offices to inquire about pulling a permit. I inquired about what I was able to do as a homeowner the reply was "nothing" I was slightly confused and said "nothing" guy says ya "nothing" you need to have a license to do any electrical work or pull a permit. I turn around and said thanks for "nothing".

You are right about MA being a tough state on building codes. While most inspectors I dealt with have been courteous, it has been difficult nonetheless. Not just for the basement, but more so for the current attic project.

We have so many issues with the plumbing inspector and the plumbing code, some very ridicilous that required us to take down and redo construction because inch, half an inch spacing. Also the extra expenses for items, digging out a ditch so we can have a bathroom went come above ground, it's ridiclous.

Worst of all, we have a licensed plumber do all the work, and it's still a hassle to pass inspections.

The electrical inspector won't issue a perimit for any electrical work, which is not a problem if you are putting a few can lights in, but in a large scale construction (like HT) is requried. It was a hassle finding an electrician that is willing to work with you, and the fact that electricians know that in certain towns people can't get electrical permits drives the prices of their services up. Basically, we the consumer end up losing.

Companies and contractors that have done work on our house before (i.e. Central Air) almost never pull the permit. I beging to understand why now.