Hey everyone..

I've decided to put in laminate wood flooring to replace the carpet in the basement and am also upgrading the speakers but now realize I'll need acoustic treatment for better sound. I'm looking to just improve the sound quality. I'll be using a 5.1 Ascend Setup with SVS Cylinder sub.

I have attached a sketch of my room.

I was wondering what type of acoustic treatment I should use and where it should be placed. I'm on a low budget (maybe $200 at most for treatment) and need help on placement and product choice.

Also...there is a drop ceiling in my theater room...would acoustic tiles help in the drop ceiling??

Should I use foam, like the following from ebay item 260137255845.

The room is about 12ft wide x 24ft long with 8ft ceilings.

Thanks for everything.



http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/507/room.gif

My recommendations would be to: 1) NOT install laminate flooring, and 2) to remove the drop ceiling.

Hardwood floors of any kind make for much worse acoustics from what I've read on here. You're better off leaving the carpet in place. Even with area rugs over the flooring your sound won't be as good as it is with carpet in place.

As for the drop ceiling, acoustic tiles might help a little, but the best thing to do is to remove the ceiling entirely and replace it with drywall, either with RSIC clips or Green Glue. Given your budget that's probably not a likely scenario.

Overall, your best bet is to leave the carpet in place, add some weight (maybe pieces of drywall) to the backs of each of the drop ceiling tiles, and live with the sound.

-drin

I think putting in the wood floor is going to work fine. Just make sure you cover the room with proper bass trapping in the corners and panels for the early reflection points in the room.
For the ceiling I would stuff fluffy fiberglass between the drop ceiling and the "real" ceiling. Make sure the tiles you use are not rigid.

Glenn

What would the difference between a rigid ceiling tile be and non-rigid? Aren't there acoustic ceiling tiles I could use from Lowe's or Home Depot that might help?

I don't have the money right now to replace the drop ceiling with drywall....that'd be a big project---

I was trying to get some direction on what acoustic materials I could use and where they should be located.

I think putting in the wood floor is going to work fine. Just make sure you cover the room with proper bass trapping in the corners and panels for the early reflection points in the room.
For the ceiling I would stuff fluffy fiberglass between the drop ceiling and the "real" ceiling. Make sure the tiles you use are not rigid.

Glenn

My reading on here for the past year has shown an overwhelming consensus that hardwood floors add to the reflection points in a room, making the sound worse than it is with carpet and underpadding. I'm interested in your rationale for why it's okay in this situation. Thanks!

-drin

I agree that the flooring is not going to help you will need a good rug at least over it. As for the other things. The dimensions of the room are less than optimal for sound as well.
As for treatments, start with your first reflection points. to find those have someone with a mirror stand at the wall while you sit in the various seats, they should move the mirror along the wall, parallel to it and when you see the speaker in the mirror that is the first reflection point for that speaker, you must do this for all your seating. you will need to apply acoustic panels to those points that would be the first place to start. You may or many not need bass traps as well.

You do not really want foam treatments such as you mentioned. you will want ridgid fiberglass panels like Corning 703 or rockwool is used by some people. There are some do it yourself kits on the market for this as well.

Interested in the hard flooring aspect of this post as well. I read a bit on here about the preference to use carpets in theater. I contacted two acoustical engineers and they said hard flooring isn't that big of a deal. They said it would be a bonus to treat the ceiling in that environment.

So I'd like to hear some experts weigh in on the subject.

I'd think that carpet wouldn't do that much benefit because its not that thick? Are sound waves be able to bounce right through carpet?
Sound panels are way thicker and more dense than carpet no? Otherwise you'd have people making cheap sound panels out of carpet scraps? Complete guess on my part though!

I think you are correct kainers - hard flooring alone doesn't make a room's acoustics better or worse. It all depends on how the rest of the room is treated. Typically though, people tend not to treat their ceilings which combined with untreated floors can cause issues. At least that is the way I understand it.

>>>Otherwise you'd have people making cheap sound panels out of carpet scraps?<<<

Exactly what many musicians (including myself in the ancient past) sometimes do to basements, rooms, garages etc., to deaden sound with absolutely no budget... Carpet does absorb a lot of sound waves.

Actually the laminate flooring, combined with a drop ceiling that has a foot of fluffy-fiberglass-pink over GoM over a grid, and with an area rug at the first-floor-reflection-point, could be ok treatment for floor and ceiling.

Hardwood floors between you and the speakers is a bad idea.

iGirl:

Absorption coefficients, Carpet heavy, on concrete
Ref. Harris:Handbook of Acoustical Measurements and Noise Control, McGraw Hill 1991
125hz 0.02
250hz 0.06
500hz 0.14
1000hz 0.37
2000hz 0.6
4000hz 0.65

i.e. tends to absorb a lot in high frequencies, and not much in low frequencies.

Hardwood floors between you and the speakers is a bad idea.

That's what I thought I had learned from here - thanks Dennis.

-drin

i.e. tends to absorb a lot in high frequencies, and not much in low frequencies.

So half the battle is won...then some nice bass traps to finish it off! :)

So half the battle is won...then some nice bass traps to finish it off! :)

Nope, not even close. That takes care of high frequencies on the FLOOR - now you have to worry about those same high frequencies on the side, front and back walls as well as the ceiling. THEN you can start thinking about mids and bass on all the same surfaces.

-drin

So...with my budget---what can i do?

Are there some good DIY panels I could use that won't run a lot of money...and where should I place them first? On the walls perpendicular to the front wall? One behind each front speaker?

Thanks everyone for your comments and help.

-KostaVan

So...with my budget---what can i do?

Are there some good DIY panels I could use that won't run a lot of money...and where should I place them first? On the walls perpendicular to the front wall? One behind each front speaker?

Thanks everyone for your comments and help.

-KostaVan


Did you read what I wrote to you about reflection points? It tells you where to start putting them.

KostaVan:

OK, you say want treatment, and you've got a tiny budget, and are looking for the largest difference for the least money.

With your budget I'd start by listening without treatment. Toe in your speakers so less sound bounces off the side walls. Do some experimentation with subwoofer placement to even out the sound, and then set the volume correctly on all speakers.

Then, if your DIY and wood skills are good, build two, 2'x6' wood frames with fiberglass or rockwool in them. Listen to the Star Wars Pod Race scene without them up, and then listen with them placed horizontally on the left/right wall, to cover the mirror trick from the front three speakers. Does imaging improve? I know people who've gotten wood for free and have the tools already.
http://www.bobgolds.com/TrapKiwishred/home.htm
http://thegilpins.org/Projects/Site/Projects/5A5066F2-EBDE-4AE2-B1AC-E1A700A8F17F.html <- wgilpin's

If your DIY skills are bad, and the signifacant other doesn't mind, and you don't have kids or pets, then just lean the rigid fiberglass against the walls in the appropriate spots -- might be good for an experiment before you build anyway. An alternative is to have a relative make you some bags (http://www.readyacoustics.com/index.php?go=products.proddetails&prod=RT422B) for them (think couch cushion covers). I have an aunt that falls into the "have sewing machine, will sew" category.

A variation on this is to tell her she can put up curtains on either side, provided they are heavy and have a deep drape of at least 7".

Sit back, and enjoy that for a couple of months until you get another $200, and then try a corner bass trap and see if you can hear a difference -- possibly with U571's depth charge scene (there's lots of lists of good Bass dvd scenes). ---k--- made a corner trap and seemed to notice the difference:
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5998194&&#post5998194

Nope, not even close. That takes care of high frequencies on the FLOOR - now you have to worry about those same high frequencies on the side, front and back walls as well as the ceiling. THEN you can start thinking about mids and bass on all the same surfaces.

-drin

Well, I didn't say carpet the floor only - I've actually seen band rehearsal spaces carpeted everywhere - even the ceilings! But that's getting a bit overkill except for a pure studio listening environment, or need for complete isolation.

Back to the OP's quest - help treat the room on a small budget. Carpet will help, even if it's just on the floor. Insulation in the ceiling will help. Something on the walls can help be it rugs hung as art, curtains, DIY burlap covered sound panels - even DIY bass traps - or carpet! LOL. Fabric furniture will help too (more than plastic or metal). If you wanted to hang long curtains behind the seating area, that would additionally tame reflective sound for the viewers, and separate the space for privacy and dual function. You could also possibly make that wall a decorative wall of Owens Corning 701 with more money!

Anyway, best wishes getting it done...

Hardwood floors between you and the speakers is a bad idea.

I can agree with that some what, but using things like heavy throw rugs would work out much better.
The reason I don't like carpet on the floor is the same reason I would not cover one whole wall with carpet. It absorbs only the high end within the room.

Glenn

Actually the laminate flooring, combined with a drop ceiling that has a foot of fluffy-fiberglass-pink over GoM over a grid, and with an area rug at the first-floor-reflection-point, could be ok treatment for floor and ceiling.

That is the way I would do it. :)

Glenn

Glenn,

I can agree with that some what, but using things like heavy throw rugs would work out much better. The reason I don't like carpet on the floor is the same reason I would not cover one whole wall with carpet. It absorbs only the high end within the room.

That's the right answer. I agree with those who said a reflective floor at the key reflection spots should be avoided. And having a reflective floor means you need to treat much more of the ceiling to avoid floor-ceiling flutter echo. But wood floors look great, and a heavy throw rug can do a good job of absorbing reflections at those specific places. Wood floors are also easier to clean than carpet. Pet owners know exactly what I'm talking about. :D

--Ethan

I think the reason for suggesting that he not change the carpet has to do with the overall solution and budget. He's already on a very limited budget and now he's spending more money to put himself in a situation where he's eliminating some moderate decay time control by removing the carpet.

Bryan

I think the reason for suggesting that he not change the carpet has to do with the overall solution and budget. He's already on a very limited budget and now he's spending more money to put himself in a situation where he's eliminating some moderate decay time control by removing the carpet.
Agreed completely Bryan. A few years ago I considered replacing the carpet in my living room with a wood floor, but it would have been a huge hassle, and expensive, and frankly I'm perfectly happy with the carpet. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Especially not if it'll cost a few grand. :D

--Ethan