After I just had the fantastic opportunity thanks to my dealer to A-B a brandnew Sim2 HT5000 3-chip 1080p DLP with my "mere" Sharp XV-Z20000 in my very own HT cave I REALLY have a hard time to let go the Sim2.

Most of us agree that 3-chip >= 1080p DLP is the "perfect projection technology".

Question remains if it will ever replace 1-chip DLP as mainstream option (~$3,000-$10,000), or if we will continue to see 1-chip DLPs in this price range (this one is for you, Ohlson: possible using LED/Laser instead of UHP lamps) while 3-chip DLP remains a luxury good.

Any thoughts?

Maybe in 7-8 years from now it will become mainstream and financially affordable, but i doubt it will happen before that.

P.s. Please, open a seperate thread with your impressions of the sim-sharp comparison.I think a lot of people are interested.

3 chip DLP to many seams very high priced compared to the recent aggressive trend the last few years from Sony and JVC Lcos/SXRD pricing but in reality 3 chip DLP is half the price it use to be several years ago. The C3X was the first to retail about 15k back when 720P was still the standard with the Infocus following the same price reduction.
You can buy into first gen 1080p 3 chip in the 30k to 40k range which will only go down from here.

There is something about 3 chip DLP once you have spent time with one but sadly because of price many will never consider or give 3 chip DLP a screening. The new models are 10 bit or higher and I have found the image is very clean on par with Lcos which does not revile the nasty compression artifacts as much on pour source content.
Its good to see all theses technologies making advancements.

I really believe that the 1080p 3 DLP will probably remain at the higher end of the price range much as the 9" CRT had remained in the higher price zone. Sure, they dropped from their introduction prices, but who ever could buy a new SONY G90, ELECTROHOME 9500, etc. for less than $12,000? In part, I doubt there will ever be a large enough demand that production costs will drop that much to put them in the sub $10K range, 15-25K, someday, but less, doubtful. I depress myself ownself because I really would like one, but unless I hit the lottery....
joe

Does anyone know why 3 chippers are so expensive?

Is TI's pricing scheme for DLP chips the primary reason the 3-chippers are so high, or is it the added cost of integrating 3 chips instead of 1 chip into the design of the projector?

I am assuming it's not like going from a V6 to a V8 car engine?

Does anyone know why 3 chippers are so expensive?

Is TI's pricing scheme for DLP chips the primary reason the 3-chippers are so high, or is it the added cost of integrating 3 chips instead of 1 chip into the design of the projector?

I am assuming it's not like going from a V6 to a V8 car engine?

This is a good question. DLP is more difficult to drive and requires additional drive electronics compared to LCOS. Even still though LCOS is relatively expensive and difficult to manufacture because of the many processing steps required. The final LCOS product also requires additional calibration time to correct for shading uniformity errors which doesn't exist on DLP. The net result is that cost-wise I wouldn't expect such a big disparity between the two.

Now that dithering errors have been reduced, 3-chip DLP offers some real advantages over LCOS especially light efficiency and a simpler optical path which helps improve ANSI CR. If the the cost comes down and the on/off CR is improved, DLP could become a popular high-volume product and not the niche product that it currently is.

The new 3 chip SIM2 including lens lists for $54,000. I told a customer and he blinked. He Ok'd anything up to $30K I wanted to install but he wasn't going above that. That's right, I get to pick it and he doesn't want to see it first. I don't think even from an internet SIM2 dealer one could get it for $30K. I did suggest the machine though. If you got the clams, this is the machine to get at this point. Who knows what we will see at Cedia.

Peter Putman had an interesting blurb on HDTVexpert about a Sharp 3 chipper:

"Sharp: They showed the XG-PG610X, a super-compact three-chip DLP projector with UHP lamps "

Anyone see this? I can't believe Peter didn't post a picture.

Ken

it is a 6,000 lumens, 2,000:1 XGA (1024x768) machine :(

I think when the prices come down a little I'll be replacing the 333 with 1080P DLP 3 chipper. I haven't seen one in action but I can just imagine if they are better then what I'm watching now. How long do you think before they get down to my comfort range of $15 to $20k , a year, two ?

Cheers
Calvin

it is a 6,000 lumens, 2,000:1 XGA (1024x768) machine :(

HHF,

Yeah, but how big is it? It's the "Super Compact" part that sounds interesting.

Ken

The party for 3 chip DLP is over.

As projectors get more and more commoditized the vast majority of people will take the next available technology at or below $5k.

The fact is those that make all the hardware in the projector from start to finish will dominate.

Expect to see sub $5k laser projectors withing 2 years. DLP will still claim to be better and have followers

The party for 3 chip DLP is over. <SNIP>
That's funny. :rolleyes: The party for my 3 chip DLP is still going strong, and I don't see it ending anytime soon. Those who can afford the 3 chippers will still buy them.

The party for 3 chip DLP is over....


I couldn't disagree more.

The fact is....

You might want to identify such musings as the opinions they are, rather than anoint them the "facts" they aren't.

If they were $30K, I would have sold one today They really are just coming to market. The party hasn't even started. Most people can't afford it, but so what? Enough people want better than any foreseeable in the future machine sold on the internet for sub $5K. Such machines will always be rather dim in comparison and will have toy lenses. Lots of camera lens for the masses are $500 or so. You can take great photos with one. The same pro lens with better glass and higher speed costs 10 times as much and pros and serious hobbyists like me buy them. If one wants the best and can afford it, they will buy it. Just like Wilson speakers for $13K, $28K, $45K, and $120K. Real good speakers can be had for $5 to $10K. But the expensive stuff, considered the best by the buyer still sell like expensive hamburgers. The masses love McDonalds hamburgers. I think thy suck and won't eat them. Porsch cars are very expensive buy sell real well. I like my second hand 2002 Miata which I paid less than $15K three years ago. If I had the money, I'd buy an $85K car.Worth it but alas I really can't afford it so I am happy with my cheap sports car. Many can be very happy with their cheap RS1. Many but far lesser can't and will pay a lot more to have the best.

One difference though is cost/performance ratio and value. I would agree with your lens comparison, except the "10 times" figure is (with rare exceptions) exaggerated quite a bit - it's more like 3 or 4 times, at most. The same ratio is approximately true with the PJ's in question. I value my Canon L glass for its performance on my full frame sensor SLR body and it is worth that extra 3-4X cost to me. However, while I don't agree with Tryg that the 3 chip DLP party is over, I don't find the current difference in performance over my 720p 3 chip C3X to be similarly exceeded by the new 1080p version to justify the price. I have no doubt the price on the HT5000 will eventually fall enough to make me re-consider. Then the two analogous examples will be back in line again and I may make a move. There is a difference in real value/performance for extra $$$ and the ego/marquee brand types who simply want the status for the same $$$ and don't care about the real performance. For the manufacturer, both are customers at some point. The party will continue, Tryg's foreboding notwithstanding.

well, projectors in the $3-6K budget allow more people to allocate say $10-30K for a complete installation. same with plasma price: now a Pana full 50" is around EU 3700, it allows the installer to propose a plasma installation for EUR 10-15K with speakers, amp, subwoofer av furniture etc (where the real profit is). something not possible with a Pioneer 1080p at 8K.

low priced flat screens are a problem for shops as competition is fierce.
but for an installer-reseller it's kinda good: it frees (not freezes :D ) client funds to spend on accessories :) like quality speakers, furniture etc to go with.

but Europe is a different market. and each country here is even different too.
for instance Hifi does much better in Holland compared to the home theater while in UK, France, home theater does kinda better.


can youimagine the home theater you could have instead of paying EUR 50K for a 1000ansi 1080P 3DLP projector ?
same with a pj sold for 15-20K.

now, as Mark says, when you're talking of a DP or Christie 3DLP at EUR 50-60K, then i agree, this is a whole other world.

but in terms of sales it's a drop in an ocean of jvc sony pjs (now) and the little dlp-lcd machines (optoma sanyo pana etc)

The new 3 chip SIM2 including lens lists for $54,000. I told a customer and he blinked. He Ok'd anything up to $30K I wanted to install but he wasn't going above that. That's right, I get to pick it and he doesn't want to see it first. I don't think even from an internet SIM2 dealer one could get it for $30K. I did suggest the machine though. If you got the clams, this is the machine to get at this point. Who knows what we will see at Cedia.

$54,000 for a pj opens the debat:

$54,000 for complete HT is much better spent money
$54,000 for then a pro machine from CHRISTIE or DP for instance and that means
an HT worth $100-200K and you can REALLY consider a giant screen say 6-7meters then. i often make the relation between price of a pj and screen size....


i dont think SIM2 will sell a lot of these....

I'll go out on a ledge and "predict" that 3 DLP front projectors will be the norm and probably in the next 5 years. My reasoning:

The rear projection market for DLP is rapidly shrinking and will be gone in a few years. Nobody wants a rear projector if you can get the same size in a hang on the wall flat panel plasma/LDC/OLED for the same price or less. I think the precipitous drop in flat panel prices is the driving force behind the drop in front projector prices. If DLP, LCOS, Micro LCD want to sell anything, they will have to sell to the front projector market.

Soon, single DLP front projectors will get to the point where the contrast ratio is 20,000 or 50,000 or some other number close to infinity. Then, the best way to keep up with the LCOS, LCD competition in picture quality will be 3 DLP projectors. Unless TI wants out of the DLP business, they will design engines that can be used in three-DLP front projectors sold at consumer prices.

The window is closing on front projectors. Just like nobody wants a rear projector if they can get the same size flat panel display, no one will want front projectors if you can buy 100' OLED displays at low prices. This may be 10-15 years away so TI will have 5-10 years of thre-DLP front projector DLPs before front projection is obsolete.

The wild card is laser/LED projectors. Can laser/LEDs get "perfect" picture quality from one DLP projectors? If they can, there is no reason for TI to push on consumer priced hree DLP engines. If lasers will also benefit from three DLP, then I stand by my prediction.

Now that this has been settled, what should we talk about next? :)

I hate it, but I don't see the pricing moving. Hope I'm wrong, cause I want one, but I always look to the C3X as a example. With all that's going on around it price and resolution wise, I don't think it's price has moved appreciably, if at all. If it's not moving, no way they will budge on a HT5k. It's deep pockets, 720p, or assimilate to the Tyrg boat ;). I just don't see anyone who will compete with them. Anyone who might would likely be even higher :(. Be good to be wrong on this one...

I love it how noobs talk about 3-chip like it's some new spin off of "regular" DLP.

The very first DLP projector ever was a 3-chip DLP, and it was produced by Digital Projection.

Digital Projection was TI's partner in adapting the DMD for use in video displays.
Because they have been using DLP before anyone else, they still do certain things better than anyone else.

http://www.digitalprojection.com/content/view/17/55/

3-chip is the standard for larger applications like Digital Cinema, staging, and large commercial venues.

There are Digital Projection 2048x1080 3-chip DLPs (w/ 1.26" DMDs) on every screen at Sundance and TriBeca Film Festivals. (by comparison, most DLPs have .95" DMDs)

There is no way that a single chip and color wheels could keep the golden eye Hollywood crowd happy... The color depth just isn't there.

Barco, Christie, and NEC supply the bulk of the 3-chip units to the commercial theater market.

I hate it, but I don't see the pricing moving. Hope I'm wrong, cause I want one, ...

Scott, I'm old enough to remember Brook Benton and his 60's hit (I think it was 60's), "It's just a matter of time". When I first looked into buying my first FP for my new HT, I was looking at IF7205 and maybe IF7210, which was then around $10k. I ended up with a 3 chip Sim2 C3X Lite at...let's just say somewhere very close (very close!) to that same price. Yet the Sim2 series started waaay higher. The original IF SP777 was about $30k and is now less than $10k. This in the space of 2 years. No, for now Sim and some others aren't moving on price much....yet. But, listen to ole' Brook and history - it's just a matter of time.

The party for 3 chip DLP is over.

As projectors get more and more commoditized the vast majority of people will take the next available technology at or below $5k.

The fact is those that make all the hardware in the projector from start to finish will dominate.

Expect to see sub $5k laser projectors withing 2 years. DLP will still claim to be better and have followers
Welcome back Tryg, we've all missed you. I knew you were still in there somewhere. Man, it must be SOOO tough to hold back now that you are a sales guy. But for a brief moment you couldn't hold back and the old highly biased stating opinion as fact LCOS loving DLP hating Tryg came out. Welcome back, we've missed you. Speaking only for myself of course, other they may feel differently.

:D

I would rather purchase a C3Xe with all of its new improvements than any 1080p one chip at this point.

Gee Larry. I spent a little over $5K on my 200-400 F4.0 AF-S VR lens. I could buy a 200 F4.5 to 400 F5.6 or something little higher say 6.3 for about $500. I don't know the details on the cheapees because I don't buy them. Maybe a little better for say $800. But that nice glass I have is still $5K. If you are talking a nice IR cannon lens from 100 to 400 IR which I also own, the price was $1500 and your multiplier is correct. But I was talking cheap mass stuff compared to the big boy stuff. The $1500 Canon is a great lens, not too expensive, much easier to lug and shoot compared to the 200-400 F.4.0, but not eactly a mass photographer market lens for your average Joe nature or sports shooter.

think what you want then check out this poll
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=871977

neadless to say, based on what I've seen 3 chip LCOS is outselling 3 chip DLP 100 to 1 or more. Lets be honest...how many DLP manufacturers can stay in this game?

Dont get me wrong. I think 3 chip DLP throws a great picture. I just think it's too little too late. :(

I don't even need to look at the poll Tryg. I agree in 1920 x 1080 high-end LCOS is outselling DLP because it has been less expensive. But now we are going to see a bunch of 1920 x 1080 single chip DLP at the same price range and DLP will come alive again. 3-chip DLP will be for now at the ultra high-end. It does not need to be 5K, that will be the domain of single ship DLP. I know, I know, now a bunch of people are going to tell me how they won't buy a single chip. That's fine, but the larger market will.

3 chip DLP is special.

My wife is very cynical about this stuff but when she saw a 3 chip Marantz 720P unit, she was blown away and very impressed.

We are too willing to believe in the "persistence of vision" idea, i.e., that our minds can integrate things together to make a coherent picture. To some extent we can of course, but there is a part of us that is not fooled.

The inherent speed of the DLP mirrors combined with 3 separate chips allows colors and images to look a lot more solid and real. Yes, temporal dithering works, but only to a degree.

I have never understood why 3 chip DLP is so much more expensive than 3 chip LCD or LCOS. I can buy a very nice 3 chip 1080P LCD for $3K. Why is DLP
$40K?

3DLP is for now "reserved" for high end HT market but mostly cinema applications and some other applications (military ? scientific ? entertainment ? some business applications ? but JVC has also some share there and big LCD machines like from EIKI etc)
It doesnt seem to change. actors: BARCO CHRISTIE DPROJECTION.

but what about OPTOMA and BENQ ? these have pushed down the price of the 1DLP. they pushed away Sharp, Davis (rip), Infocus etc. perhaps these guys will surprise with a 3DLP if they feel there's a market

for now JVC and SONY own the $4K-12K market. a major change since the arrival of the RUBY

So from the poll in the over $3K,the vast majority own projectors that street for under $5K. A whopping how many total-al ittle over 100, a number that would be dwarfed by some one or two projectors in the $1000 class in the sub $3000 forum. I guess I would conclude that in comparison with the cheap $1000 machines, the day of the $4K projector is over. Turn out the lights the party is over. Only the idiots here in this forum would spend that much. Hardly worth it for a manufacturer to make them.

I love it how noobs talk about 3-chip like it's some new spin off of "regular" DLP.

The very first DLP projector ever was a 3-chip DLP, and it was produced by Digital Projection.

Digital Projection was TI's partner in adapting the DMD for use in video displays.
Because they have been using DLP before anyone else, they still do certain things better than anyone else.

http://www.digitalprojection.com/content/view/17/55/

3-chip is the standard for larger applications like Digital Cinema, staging, and large commercial venues.

There are Digital Projection 2048x1080 3-chip DLPs (w/ 1.26" DMDs) on every screen at Sundance and TriBeca Film Festivals. (by comparison, most DLPs have .95" DMDs)

There is no way that a single chip and color wheels could keep the golden eye Hollywood crowd happy... The color depth just isn't there.

Barco, Christie, and NEC supply the bulk of the 3-chip units to the commercial theater market.


Interesting, but the topic of this thread is mainstream (i.e. consumer priced) 3DLP projectors.

Denis

The very first DLP projector ever was a 3-chip DLP, and it was produced by Digital Projection.
The nView Diamond D-400 was the first DLP projector on the market. It started shipping in April 1996. I think it was a 1-chip DLP.

Gee Larry. I spent a little over $5K on my 200-400 F4.0 AF-S VR lens. I could buy a 200 F4.5 to 400 F5.6 or something little higher say 6.3 for about $500. I don't know the details on the cheapees because I don't buy them. Maybe a little better for say $800. But that nice glass I have is still $5K. If you are talking a nice IR cannon lens from 100 to 400 IR which I also own, the price was $1500 and your multiplier is correct. But I was talking cheap mass stuff compared to the big boy stuff. The $1500 Canon is a great lens, not too expensive, much easier to lug and shoot compared to the 200-400 F.4.0, but not eactly a mass photographer market lens for your average Joe nature or sports shooter.

Well Frank, within their own lines, both Canon and Nikon produce about 100-110 quality lenses for their bodies. Nikon has only about %16 priced in that high-niche range of yours and Canon about 9%. And I don't think the rest are "cheapies". My L glass generally runs $1400-$2000 - the majority of these quality lenses are more in the ratio I gave than yours. But, nevermind...this is drifting OT and no, I wasn't talking about mass market either. I was simply voicing an opinion on your analogy while mostly agreeing with it except the average ratio given - not trying to start a debate.

"I have never understood why 3 chip DLP is so much more expensive than 3 chip LCD or LCOS."

The off-axis reflection of DLP requires a more complex optical layout .

I would argue that the C3X Lite and the InFocus 777 are already mainstream products in the high-end market. We'll see if 1080p equivalents at similar prices are soon available.

I would argue that the C3X Lite and the InFocus 777 are already mainstream products in the high-end market. We'll see if 1080p equivalents at similar prices are soon available.

My opinion is they will drop as 1080p models next year sub 15K MSRP.

Art