I'm going to bi-wire my speakers and I'm wondering what your opinion is about using one 4 wire cable or two 2 wire cables.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks!

Dave

1 4 wire cable would be easier, but why bother. Bi-Wiring does nothing, Bi Amping may give you some benefit, but even that is debatable.

My opinion is that in the first instance you have all 4 cables bundled together in the same wire. In the second instance you have two separate bundles.

One of those may or may not make any difference to you in terms of ease of running the cables, aesthetics, etc.

As to my opinion, biwiring is silly to begin with. You could just run one cable.

It's like asking whether you should eat the oreo cookie in 2 larger bites or 4 smaller bites. Does it really matter? No.

Okay, you guys think bi-wiring is a waste. I've read from the manufacturer and from people who've done it that bi-wiring makes a difference. I'm not sure how much of a difference.

Ultimately I will bi-amp the system. So, with that in mind, do I run one or two wires?

Dave

If it is a matter of cost I priced the option of quad cable vs. running two sets of two and it was actually cheaper to run two sets of two.

I have tried to read to find out the benefits of bi-wiring and bi-amping and ended up even more confused than when I started. From what I have gained bi-wiring is less effective or not as effective as bi-amping and from what I gather bi-amping is better utilized in the uber-expensive set ups. But that is just my .02 and is not based on anything but just what I have read here on AVS.

dazed

Okay, you guys think bi-wiring is a waste. I've read from the manufacturer and from people who've done it that bi-wiring makes a difference. I'm not sure how much of a difference.

Ultimately I will bi-amp the system. So, with that in mind, do I run one or two wires?

Dave

Like I said, it doesn't matter. One way may be cheaper, one may be aesthetically more pleasing to you, and one may be easier to snake. At the end of the day though it doesn't make a bit of difference if the 4 individual wires are all in one sleeve or two different sleeves or runs.

Do you prefer cutting your sandwiches into quarters or halves? Doesn't matter at all in terms of the amount of sandwich.

Disclaimer: I am not an acoustical engineer, electrical engineer, or anything of the sort...perhaps I do not even know what I am talking about.

That being said, I would think that if you are from the school of belief that bi-wiring makes a difference, than you would want the 4 conductors in one jacket. If you use two separate speaker cables you could potentially have differing lengths for the two. Now theoretically, a couple of feet shouldn't make any difference in the flow of electrons, nanoseconds perhaps. But it could be enough to throw one very slightly out of phase with the other, couldn't it?

Then of course, if you use two separate cables, you theoretically have the benefit of "magnetically isolating" the high frequencies from the low...

So I guess two separate cables of identical length would be best?

To add to the disclaimer, I usually know just enough information to make myself look stupid...;)

Now theoretically, a couple of feet shouldn't make any difference in the flow of electrons

OK, this is OT, but just to throw it in:

One of my college physics courses (more than 20 years ago) had a question on the final regarding the flow of electrons out of the end of a wire. All sorts of numbers relating to current, voltage and amperage were thrown in for good measure, as well as the diameter of the wire. The question was (paraphrased, of course):

"Given the above information, how many electrons flow out of the wire in 5 minutes of operation?"

The correct answer was zero. Electrons don't flow! Charge travels from one to the next, but the electrons themselves NEVER MOVE.

Just an FYI. :)

-drin

The correct answer was zero. Electrons don't flow! Charge travels from one to the next, but the electrons themselves NEVER MOVE.

Just an FYI. :)

-drin
The electrons are the charge. Each electron has a charge of negative one. It can't pass that charge to another electron, each is always negative one. (We'll leave holes out of this, that's a semiconductor issue and doesn't apply to wires).

If there is DC current in a wire, charge/electrons flow through the wire. They definitely move over time. The electrons flow from the negative terminal of the power source to the positive. The 'current' flows opposite to the electrons (as electrons have negative charge).

If there is purely alternating current (AC) in a wire, then the electrons flow one way during the positive voltage swing and the opposite way during the negative voltage swing (assuming no capacitive/inductive effects that can shift the phase). The effect is that they move back and forth, returning to their starting spot (on average) at the same spot in each cycle. How far they move back and forth is a function of the frequency of the AC and the voltage/resistance.

So it is correct to say that with AC current, the NET movement of electrons over time is zero, but they are definitely moving.

Disclaimer:.....perhaps I do not even know what I am talking about.

To add to the disclaimer, I usually know just enough information to make myself look stupid...;)


LOL,

I know EXACTLY what you mean by this due to the fact I am much the same.

dazed

Paul,

Thanks for the electrical review. I knew there was a reason I didn't become an Electrical Engineer (we called them spark chasers and double e's in college).

I think if I ran two wires to each speaker they could easily be the same length. So, back to the question - one wire or two?

Dave

Dave,

You will hear a lot of opinion about if bi-wire makes a difference, along with if different speaker cables, or any cables for that matter make a difference. Audiophile forums tend to argue that it does, where as most people on these forums believe the issues above make little or no signicant difference.

Putting that aside - to answer your question:

I would highly recommended one Canare Star Quad 4S11 cable that can be ordered from Bluejeanscable or Westlake Electronics. It's not the chepeast, but I got a good deal from Westlake electronics.

I ran three of these to the front of my room (2 front speakers and the center channel), and I am happy with the configuration. Running two seperate cables may be cheaper, but it can create a wiring mess especially if you are not using a false wall.

Canare Star Quad is good speaker wire for this application. Later you can use some techflex and shrink wrap along with inexpensive but good connectors if aestetics may be a concern.

I also recommend running these wires a straight shot, and not terminating at wall plates. If you do use speaker cable wall plates, the more gangs the better. I made a mistake of thinking one gang is good for eight wires, at the end it worked, but two gangs would have been much easier IMHO.

The electrons are the charge. Each electron has a charge of negative one. It can't pass that charge to another electron, each is always negative one.

Doh! (slapping my forehead). Of COURSE they're negative! I knew there was a reason I didn't end up a physicist.

Maybe I should look up that prof and challenge his answer... it's only been 22 years.

Of course, the question might have been "What's the NET number of electrons that flow out of the wire?". It's been so long I could be remembering it wrong.

-drin

Dave,

You will hear a lot of opinion about if bi-wire makes a difference, along with if different speaker cables, or any cables for that matter make a difference. Audiophile forums tend to argue that it does, where as most people on these forums believe the issues above make little or no signicant difference.

Putting that aside - to answer your question:

I would highly recommended one Canare Star Quad 4S11 cable that can be ordered from Bluejeanscable or Westlake Electronics. It's not the chepeast, but I got a good deal from Westlake electronics.

I ran three of these to the front of my room (2 front speakers and the center channel), and I am happy with the configuration. Running two seperate cables may be cheaper, but it can create a wiring mess especially if you are not using a false wall.

Canare Star Quad is good speaker wire for this application. Later you can use some techflex and shrink wrap along with inexpensive but good connectors if aestetics may be a concern.

I also recommend running these wires a straight shot, and not terminating at wall plates. If you do use speaker cable wall plates, the more gangs the better. I made a mistake of thinking one gang is good for eight wires, at the end it worked, but two gangs would have been much easier IMHO.

pred02,

Thanks for the leads on the cable - I appreciate it.

The current plan is to run raw cable to the speakers with no termination.

Thanks again.

Dave

By the way, don't worry about matching the lengths as at audio frequencies it won't make any difference in terms of the perceptible phase. If you want to do it for looks then have at it.

..Doyle

pred02,

Thanks for the leads on the cable - I appreciate it.

The current plan is to run raw cable to the speakers with no termination.

Thanks again.

Dave

Bare wire connections are the best termination. Try techflex to cover up the cables. The DIYCables forum has a lot of pictures and ideas.

BTW: The Canare Star Quad 4S11 is the primary component in many much more expensive bi-wire cables sold there on the net.

My opinion is that in the first instance you have all 4 cables bundled together in the same wire. In the second instance you have two separate bundles.

One of those may or may not make any difference to you in terms of ease of running the cables, aesthetics, etc.

As to my opinion, biwiring is silly to begin with. You could just run one cable.

It's like asking whether you should eat the oreo cookie in 2 larger bites or 4 smaller bites. Does it really matter? No.

My amps would fry if I ran one wire to each of my main speakers with my current setup. The entire purpose for bi-wire is to separate the loads of amps that are required to each speaker. If your not doing that than bi-wire is pretty pointless. You need two amps or an amp with separates built in like the Denon 5200. I don't do that with my Denon but I have and it helps. It has its practical uses. What may at first glance seem like less and in moderation is actually more not the same.

Two 2 wire cables. I recommend at least 14 guage. Label them seperate such as left surround 1, left surround two.

My amps would fry if I ran one wire to each of my main speakers with my current setup. The entire purpose for bi-wire is to separate the loads of amps that are required to each speaker. If your not doing that than bi-wire is pretty pointless. You need two amps or an amp with separates built in like the Denon 5200. I don't do that with my Denon but I have and it helps. It has its practical uses. What may at first glance seem like less and in moderation is actually more not the same.


You are confusing bi-wiring with bi-amping. Obviously bi-amping can have very significant impacts, but the topic was bi-wiring not bi-amping. In either case though, whether the wire is bundled or not isn't going to be an issue.

Disclaimer: I am not an acoustical engineer, electrical engineer, or anything of the sort...perhaps I do not even know what I am talking about.

That being said, I would think that if you are from the school of belief that bi-wiring makes a difference, than you would want the 4 conductors in one jacket. If you use two separate speaker cables you could potentially have differing lengths for the two. Now theoretically, a couple of feet shouldn't make any difference in the flow of electrons, nanoseconds perhaps. But it could be enough to throw one very slightly out of phase with the other, couldn't it?

Then of course, if you use two separate cables, you theoretically have the benefit of "magnetically isolating" the high frequencies from the low...

So I guess two separate cables of identical length would be best?

To add to the disclaimer, I usually know just enough information to make myself look stupid...;)

The signal moves at near the speed of light through the wire. You would need to have a length delta of hundreds of feet or more to have any kind of meaningful phase shift at audio frequencies. And at those kinds of lengths, that is going to be the least of your concerns.

Separating the cables may have some merit, though, for the interference issue mentioned, but realistically because the lines are amplified and not line level it's not going to be audible. But that could be a motivation (reasonable or not) of using runs separated in space.