Just thought I would share this notice found on the MythTV wiki. It appears that a new non-profit company is being formed to provide guide data for the US and Canada.

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Data_Direct

A message on the website for the newly formed company states:

Greetings from the newly-formed team at Easy TV Data,
This organization was formed by members of various software projects in response to the announcement from Zap2it Labs that they will be discontinuing the free TV listings service that they have been providing to the non-commercial free and open source communities for the last 3+ years.

We know that many of you are waiting on the edge of your seats to find out what's going on behind the scenes here, and we're just as excited to tell you, but we can't give you many details while we are still involved in negotiations. We can, however, let you know that we are actively working on a solution that will provide what we hope will be a smooth transition away from Zap2it Labs by the September 1 deadline. We will release more details as soon as we are able to do so, so please keep an eye on http://easytvdata.org/ for updates.

In the mean time, we are in need of a good lawyer who is familiar with business contracts and federal nonprofit law (preferably someone willing to work pro bono, at least initially). We are also looking for a good accountant (we are registered in Washington State) to help with any eventual financial/tax paperwork. If you are qualified and willing to help, please contact us.

Thanks for sticking with us,

The Easy TV Data Board:

Isaac Richards, Chairman (MythTV)
Robert Eden (XMLTV)
Daniel Kristjansson (MythTV)
Kevin Odorczyk (MacProgGuide)
Chris Petersen (Mythtv)

Thank you for this information. I wish I were a lawyer or an accountant. I'd help out, especially since I live in Washington state...

I wish I were a lawyer or an accountant. I'd help out... My thoughts exactly.
It's a tough one though... I have friends who are lawyers and accountants, and I have friends that are prone to tinker with things like MythTV and HTPCs. Talk about mutually exclusive sets...

Well, that didn't take long. Wish I could help out in some way, but I have ZERO legal experience. Well, zero legal experience on THAT end of the law :)

Looking forward to seeing how all of that will work!

I'm a law student, concentrating on patent law, in Northern Virginia, so I can only wish that I could help. Their best bet might be attempting to contact some Intellectual Property lawyers at some of the bigger firms in Washington. My rationale is that an IP lawyer is more likely to be interested in MythTV or technology in general. That IP lawyer might be interested enough to work with the corporate law folks to help out. Most of the bigger firms have pro-bono requirements, so it might not be too difficult to get the work done for free if they can get someone interested.

I am surprised this isn't getting more response! It sounds like details are sketchy at this point . . . i wonder if they will just be licensing the data from TMS and allowing it to be accessed off of their own servers?

I'm going to try to get one of these guys on TLLTS (http://tllts.org) for an interview and get more details. In the past the MythTV developers have been very hesitant in doing interviews. I think they wanted to keep MythTV low key and avoid problems. I really think the commercial MythTV offerings caused this whole situation.

From the initial 'press release' type statement, it sounds like they are trying to set up a non-profit company that will license data from TMS and 'resell' to cover licensing fees. The big piece of the puzzle that is yet to be discussed is the projected cost to the user/subscriber. I am curious to see what the fee is going to be.

I also hope the most current DD users realize that a fee based guide service is going to be much more stable than any free screen scraping solution. I have a fear that a lot of users are going to take a wait and see attitude and try free screen scraping solutions first. I fear it will take a while, and their screen scrapers being broken repeatedly by websites, before people will pony up their $$$ for a guide service. I just hope EasyTVData can survive that learning period.

Personally, I'd sign up with EasyTVData tomorrow to know that my MythTV system has rock solid accurate, and complete guide data. So much of the OSS community seems to hate the idea of being at the whim of some company for anything. They seem to hate the idea of anything that isn't a 100% community-developed free solution. (Free not only from a $$$ standpoint, but free regarding total developmental control) I just hope these users realize that although screen scrapers are free, users would still be at the whim of a company. It'd just the whim of the guide website companies, and how often they choose to break the scrapers, instead of EasyTVData. At least with EasyTVData, one would assume that their company goals would be in the best interest of the OSS PVR community. Can the same be said for the companies that run the websites which screen scrapers will rely on accessing for data?

I got a reply back from Chris Petersen. They'll probably come on for an interview after their big press release is made with all the details. In his reply he was emphatic that this effort wasn't just for MythTV users. He mentioned that the service would involve a number of different projects on various platforms.

In his reply he was emphatic that this effort wasn't just for MythTV users. He mentioned that the service would involve a number of different projects on various platforms.

The Media Portal application uses Zap2it for the North American guide data. I was using it up until last week. Then the guide data started to become unavailable, and Media Portal would crash (it is on Windows :) ).

I then uninstalled it and went back to using BeyondTV 4. It has it's own guide and data source.

This is why I still think that using the guide data that BTV4 has already downloaded, is the best idea for me. The only snag is that I don't know anything about database files. Linux identifies it as a SQLite3 database file.

"Easy TV Data" is sorely mistaken if they think can purchase a license for the guide information and then somehow make that guide information available to anyone, in any format, for free. The Tribune license does not allow that, nor will it ever, for that would kill / devalue the market for their product. Tribune will not allow a licensee to redistribute their data for "general purpose" use.

If "Easy TV Data" does become a reality, it will be a pay service geared toward a specific software implementation.

"Easy TV Data" is sorely mistaken if they think can purchase a license for the guide information and then somehow make that guide information available to anyone, in any format, for free. The Tribune license does not allow that, nor will it ever, for that would kill / devalue the market for their product. Tribune will not allow a licensee to redistribute their data for "general purpose" use.

If "Easy TV Data" does become a reality, it will be a pay service geared toward a specific software implementation.
I agree that there's a good chance it could have to be a pay service, but I'm confused by a number of your statements.

Who ever said it would (or would ever need to) offer data in "any format"? If it offers guide data in a single XML format, it could be used by anything. I also don't understand what you mean by "geared toward a specific software implementation"? If by that you mean outputting guide data in one XML format, again, I think that's all that would be expected. I'm sure that's all that zap2it labs ever did.

I'm also not clear what you mean by "general purpose" use, but short of some proprietary closed and possibly DRM protected implementation that's obviously out of the question, I'm sure Tribune understands that outputting XML guide data anything like labs.zap2it.com did does in fact mean there's little control over how it gets used....they're not stupid. So if this is such a complete "never gonna happen" situation for Tribune, why didn't negotiations end before they ever started? It's just a little hard to believe that all those major players in the those open source PVR projects started Schedules Direct (formerly Easy TV Data) just to screw with us.

Tom

I'm also not clear what you mean by "general purpose" use, but short of some proprietary closed and possibly DRM protected implementation that's obviously out of the questionThat's exactly what I was suggesting. Tribune is not going to allow another version of Zap2it that can be used by anyone for any purpose. Distribution will have to be controlled in such a way that its use is limited to a specific application or narrow set of applications.

Look at other PC software guide licensees as an example. These PC software licensees limit / restrict guide information to their application because that is what the license requires.

I'm sure the folks at Scheduled Direct have good intentions. I'm sure they could make it work, but I question whether they are willing to take the steps necessary. For example, would they be willing do the guide data retrieval for MythTV using proprietary, non-GPL'd code?

In looking through the different threads regarding this and information available on the Internet, it looks like Tribune didn't want to have to deal with setting up a system to deal with individual users, detecting whether an account is being used for commercial purposes, collecting payments, etc. My understanding is that Schedule Direct will take care of those issues, letting Tribune focus on their end. In theory, it should be a win/win.

I'm sure the folks at Scheduled Direct have good intentions. I'm sure they could make it work, but I question whether they are willing to take the steps necessary. For example, would they be willing do the guide data retrieval for MythTV using proprietary, non-GPL'd code?
I'd say they definately would not be willing to do that. And again, if Tribune was intent on requiring DRM or the like and wouldn't budge, nobody would be saying they were "80% sure" a deal would be worked out (which was stated on the mythtv user list by one of the people involved some time back).

Tom

My understanding is that Schedule Direct will take care of those issues, letting Tribune focus on their end. In theory, it should be a win/win.

I would have to agree. I think Schedule Direct is just going to take care of the all the details that Zap2ItLabs either didn't want to be bothered with, or didn't have the systems in place to take care of. Schedule Direct will be resposible for setting up a system to collect payments, control access to subscribers only, etc. All the small things that Zap2It labs didn't feel was worth doing for a relatively small number of users.

Please see schedulesdirect.org for all the details and future updates.

They will be licensing data from TMS so data will be exactly as with DD. They say there should be a MythTV .20.2 release shortly that will incorporate SchedulesDirect support.

Initial Pricing will be $15 / 3 Months.

They are requiring manual renewal after three months because they believe they will be able to lower pricing in the future. SD hopes to be able to lower prices to a target of $20/yr.

$5 a month seems pretty reasonable given the questions surrounding subscriber numbers initally. With a long term target of $20/yr ($1.66/mo) that would be a small price to pay to continue to receive the high quality of data currently received through DataDirect.


Good news for all the US Datadirect users!

Please see schedulesdirect.org for all the details and future updates.

They will be licensing data from TMS so data will be exactly as with DD. They say there should be a MythTV .20.2 release shortly that will incorporate SchedulesDirect support.

Initial Pricing will be $15 / 3 Months.

They are requiring manual renewal after three months because they believe they will be able to lower pricing in the future. SD hopes to be able to lower prices to a target of $20/yr.

$5 a month seems pretty reasonable given the questions surrounding subscriber numbers initally. With a long term target of $20/yr ($1.66/mo) that would be a small price to pay to continue to receive the high quality of data currently received through DataDirect.


Good news for all the US Datadirect users!

I'm willing to pay this. I wonder how much of an update to mythtv will be needed. I was hoping something simple would do like a script replacement. Upgrading my system that is working well makes me nervous -- That's why two of my backend/frontends are still on Ubuntu 6.10, including my master backend, which is probably the one I'll have to update.

I was hoping something simple would do like a script replacement. Upgrading my system that is working well makes me nervous -- That's why two of my backend/frontends are still on Ubuntu 6.10, including my master backend, which is probably the one I'll have to update.

I'm hearing that the zap2it info was hard coded. Which means an update of MythTV is coming very soon. You can either compile your own or install the package as soon as it's available.

I'm hearing that the zap2it info was hard coded. Which means an update of MythTV is coming very soon. You can either compile your own or install the package as soon as it's available.

Ahh well, not the worst thing. I'll wait for the package. Hopefully it will be backported to Edgy. If not, I'll take the time to upgrade the OS and all I guess.

The url is hardcoded into Myth so it can either be patched in the binary (if you don't want to build from source) or you can create an /etc/hosts entry that redirects the zap2it host to the new host. Either one is a simple fix.

Ahh well, not the worst thing. I'll wait for the package. Hopefully it will be backported to Edgy. If not, I'll take the time to upgrade the OS and all I guess.
I would think that the change wouldn't affect anything more than the mythfilldatabase program.

Tom

I would think that the change wouldn't affect anything more than the mythfilldatabase program.

Tom

That's what I was hoping...

While the business side is going slow, the technical side is making significant progress.

We have a functional web app to create/manage accounts/lineups
We have a working XMLTV grabber.
We have a working MythTV grabber
We have a working GB-PVR grabber
I suspect that the patch/update for Myth will be released right about the time that the Schedules Direct service goes live. Those not wanting to update should be able to use the XMLTV grabber.

$60/year for data you technically aren't allowed to use at all (take a look at that agreeement -- you can't legally copy the data. It's impossible to actually use without copying it) is obnoxious. Mo, I don't believe the whole starts-at-$60 drops-to$20 thing. The whole "trust us we know what we're doing" and "if you're not on the board your project isn't approved" thing is irritating as well.

$60/year for data you technically aren't allowed to use at all (take a look at that agreeement -- you can't legally copy the data. It's impossible to actually use without copying it) is obnoxious. Mo, I don't believe the whole starts-at-$60 drops-to$20 thing. The whole "trust us we know what we're doing" and "if you're not on the board your project isn't approved" thing is irritating as well.
Uh...exactly what do you suggest they do instead? Insist that they be allowed to give the data away to anyone and have the entire deal with TMS fall through? Do you think that the restrictions in the terms are there because schedules direct wanted them in there?

I can't imagine how they could have done any better. They have to charge $15 for 3 month ($60/year is your number, not theirs) to cover start-up costs, and until they can assess how many will actually subscribe. All they're saying is that the "goal" is $20 a year. If they can get to a point where $20/year from all subscribers will cover costs, that's what it'll be. They're a non-profit comprised of people heavily involved in open source projects...why do you think they're out to deceive everyone and exactly who do you trust?

And what's this "you can't use the data without copying" it stuff? Are you saying that the schedules direct people have set terms that make it impossible to use the data in the approved applications? Loading the data into an applications database and making personal backups of that applications data are surely considered part of using the application. Those terms are targeted at preventing re-distribution.

If you don't like it, don't pay for it....but spare us the FUD and misinformation.

Tom

And all the profits (if any) will be plowed back in to Myth and other OSS development, so there's no problem here with me. Just need to get the cost down a little more.

Uh...exactly what do you suggest they do instead? Insist that they be allowed to give the data away to anyone and have the entire deal with TMS fall through? Do you think that the restrictions in the terms are there because schedules direct wanted them in there?

It doesn't matter why the terms are there; that's completely opaque to me. Everything's completely opaque, in fact.

I can't imagine how they could have done any better. They have to charge $15 for 3 month ($60/year is your number, not theirs) to cover start-up costs, and until they can assess how many will actually subscribe.

$15/3 months = $60/year. If that price scares too many people away, they'll never get enough subscribers to consider reducing it.

.why do you think they're out to deceive everyone and exactly who do you trust?

I don't think they're out to deceive everyone (but perhaps TMS is), and I only trust what I can see -- isn't that part of what Open Source is about? The user agreement shows that they have no trust at all in their users.

And speaking of Open Source it's not clear that it's legitimate to use a modified MythTV with SchedulesDirect. Would a modified MythTV remain "approved"? How much modification makes it "unapproved"?


And what's this "you can't use the data without copying" it stuff? Are you saying that the schedules direct people have set terms that make it impossible to use the data in the approved applications?

In a word, yes. Term 2(vi) forbids making or archiving copies of the Licensed Data. That makes both XMLTV and MythTV both impossible to use without breaching the agreement.


Loading the data into an applications database and making personal backups of that applications data are surely considered part of using the application. Those terms are targeted at preventing re-distribution.

Terms 2(i)-2(iv) already handle re-distribution. The purpose of Term 2(vi) is not clear, but its effect is.

$15/3 months = $60/year. If that price scares too many people away, they'll never get enough subscribers to consider reducing it.


Yes, but the point is, they don't offer anything beyond 3 months today, because they need to take a best guess at startup and adjust the price (presumably down) as things get going. So, no, it will likely not be $60 per year. I believe their stated goal is closer to $20 per year.

As it is now, no-one can take any more risk than $15. $5 per month, 3 months.


I don't think they're out to deceive everyone (but perhaps TMS is), and I only trust what I can see -- isn't that part of what Open Source is about? The user agreement shows that they have no trust at all in their users.

To what end would TMS be trying to deceive us? Do you really think they are trying to bait us unsuspecting Linux users into a trap of misusing their data and then springing lawsuits on us?

I think the simple answer is much more likely. They are trying to tightly control the use of the data they generate a lot of revenue with, and prevent leaving loopholes in that will hurt their primary business.

If you think the agreement is out of line, you should contact scheduledirect and voice your concerns. I'm pretty sure disparaging the service here will provide no benefit for you.

Give us a break with all of these conspiracies! If you don't like the service that SchedulesDirect is offering, don't buy it!

When TMS announced the end on Z2IL, there was an immediate outcrying for a solution by the MythTV community. Plenty of people stated that they were willing to pay a nominal service fee for the data. TMS couldn't be bothered, so a company was formed to offer a solution. And to be able to offer the service for $15/3 months this quick is fantastic. I hope over time, they can either lower the monthly fee or offer a discount for a yearly prepaid service agreement. But for now, I can live with $5/month.

SchedulesDirect should be applauded for their efforts. Their solution does not work for everyone, but there is no reason to think it should. If you don't like it, feel free to arrange your own agreement with TMS or build a screen-scraper to get your data. SD is not preventing anyone from coming up with their own solution.

Personally, I'm looking forward to having a functional system after the Z2IL cutoff.

My $5.02...

TMS may simply be trying to kill MythTV entirely (at the request of their customers, many of whom sell or lease DVRs). If they can impose prices and terms unreasonable enough, they get the additional benefit of blaming the failure on those users who are unwilling to pay.

Don't be surprised if in 3 months time, SD shuts down saying that the cost of their data (which they cannot disclose, and which is entirely controlled by TMS) exceeds their revenue, because not enough users signed up or some such thing.

I'll pull my data from the PSIP feed. If I still had cable I might try to acquire one of those ATI boards and pull the data off the out-of-band feed. Or I'd emulate BeyondTV (which came with my card), or even run it and pull the data out of it. Any of those method is cheaper than SchedulesDirect, and doesn't require agreeing to a rather onerous and one-sided contract which treats me like a crook.

I'm still using my F3Q & MyHD cards on Xp. But I'm build a Linux HTPC and either way I'll likely sign up for at least the first 3 months of this if it works for me.

- Tom

TMS may simply be trying to kill MythTV entirely (at the request of their customers, many of whom sell or lease DVRs).
The lack of TMS data would never kill MythTV. It existed before labs.zap2it.com and it would exist without it or schedules direct. At a bare minimum MythTV can collect EIT data.

Tom

Howdy..

Robert Eden here... long time AVS forum member and now a founding board member of Schedules Direct.

nybbler, take a look at my signup date, search my posts, google me. Hopefully I've earned some trust over the years. (decade? what is my join date anyway?)

Schedules Direct didn't ask for this situation but we're stepping up for the good of the community. We're trying to be as upfront as we can without violating some contractual agreements. You've probably noticed we've been much more open since the TMS contact was signed.

The entire SD board is made up of OSS project leaders. We all have history and earned trust. That's one of the reasons TMS is dealing with us, the strength of the board.

When we say we're starting at $5/mo and hope to go to $20/year we mean it. We explained the reasons. We even not offering recurring subscriptions because we truly expect the price to drop.

We know we have some issues. The Subscriber Agreement doesn't seem to allow backups. Of course that's not our intent. We say so on our web page. It's going back to the lawyers. The supported app list is still in development. The DB driven list should be out today with about 17 entries on it.... *NOT* just the board.

We're not even taking subscribers yet (should be very soon) We're showing you the work in progress. And fixing issues when they're raised. (We don't have a lot of time before 9/1).

I also don't believe TMS is trying to mess with the FOSS community. I've had a lot of personal dealings with them over the years and they are a nice, fair bunch of guys. Many there are disappointed to see Labs go and they truly seem to want to help, not cause problems. They didn't have to allow a Zap2IT labs replacement at all.

In summary, I hope you can believe me that there is no conspiracy here.. just a bunch of guys (SD and TMS) trying to keep some FOSS projects alive.

Robert

The entire SD board is made up of OSS project leaders. We all have history and earned trust. That's one of the reasons TMS is dealing with us, the strength of the board.

That alone would probably be enough to get me to sign up these days, at least at small fees. But I hope you can resist the inevitable push from lawyers to protect the IP in ways that eventually least to copy protection, code ofuscation, robustness requirements, and finally closed source and unworkable DRM restraints. You would certainly lose my support in that event.

- Tom

My time is worth something, so $5/mo. is very reasonable IMHO. Myth as been very solid for me since the first of the year. I've got a Ubuntu setup using HDhomerun plus a Hauppage board (3 tuners totals OTA/cable) and it works awesome! It works better than my HD-Tivo box! :) I am not sure how they will handle two different guides like myth and zap2it do now, I have to use two different subscriptions (one for cable and one for OTA), so I don't know if this is another $5/mo or not?

I'm not accusing you or the other SchedulesDirect people of being involved in a conspiracy or any such thing. I do, however, think you're too trusting of TMS -- the people you're working with may be great guys, but their bosses are a different story.

The "agreement" for use of data is insulting. It's the kind of stuff you see in the worst software end-user license agreements. Customer agrees to pay, Supplier agrees to provide... something, which they can change at any time without notice. Supplier gets to determine how Customer uses what Supplier provides. Supplier can cut Customer off at any time without recourse if Supplier thinks Customer is doing something bad. Customer agrees to indemnify(!) Supplier against suits.

That last one is particularly nasty. Know what that provision means? It means, for instance, that if some broadcaster or content owner decides to sue TMS because its schedules were used for piracy, any customers involved would have to pay to defend TMS, and pay any judgements if TMS lost. An individual person indemnifying the Tribune? It's insane.

Last, and least, there's the cost. I can buy a card with software which provides a schedule feed (from the same source!) indefinitely for not much more than what a year's worth of service would cost. Someone's getting a sweetheart deal from TMS, and someone's getting the shaft.

I'm not accusing you or the other SchedulesDirect people of being involved in a conspiracy or any such thing. I do, however, think you're too trusting of TMS -- the people you're working with may be great guys, but their bosses are a different story.

I would expect the big wigs at TMS to do what is in TMS' best business interest. Anything less is a disservice to their shareholders. And right now TMS is in the driver's seat; they have something that SD (and us users) really need. I'm not sure there is enough revenue at stake here for TMS to "need" SD as a customer. So I would expect most negotiations to go in TMS' favor...

Last, and least, there's the cost. I can buy a card with software which provides a schedule feed (from the same source!) indefinitely for not much more than what a year's worth of service would cost. Someone's getting a sweetheart deal from TMS, and someone's getting the shaft.

OK, so a card manufacturer has a "good" deal with TMS. Good for them. SD has a different deal with TMS. It is too soon to say if their deal is good or bad. Perhaps the card manufacturer paid a substantial one time cost to TMS that SD did not pay. We'll probably never know. None of this sounds outside the bounds or "normal" business practices in a capitalistic society.

Heck, if we can just get 1 million MythTV subscribers to sign up with SD, then the yearly could go down to $1 / year :) Not likely, but it is WAY to soon to say SD is getting shatfed.

Again, congrats to Robert and the SD team for getting this far in such a short period of time. Good luck with the service rollout!

I do, however, think you're too trusting of TMS -- the people you're working with may be great guys, but their bosses are a different story.We (project leads) have been working with TMS for what 4 years now? The users may not have had much interaction, but we have and that builds up trust over the years. <speculation> I'm sure the bosses that wanted to drop Z2L wanted it done immediately (We're not paying for it). Our friends at TMS said, we can't leave these people out in the cold. Can we give them a couple months notice? Boss: Ok, shut it off 9/1. </speculation> Their bosses have shown they are great guys too.. they gave us time to come up with a solution. Now we'll be a commercial customer to them, so we'll be in the same boat as their other clients.


The "agreement" for use of data is insulting. Well most agreements written by lawyers are. We had that written, not TMS. We had to include some language from our TMS contract to not allow redistribution and restrict the data to FOSS apps.

TMS requires the FOSS restriction because unlike all their other customers, we've been given (and passed on to the users) quite a bit of latitude in how the data is used. (customer access to raw data)

For example: Let's say a company called Olympia starts selling a PVR. They don't want Olympia telling it's customers to get data from SD. They want to sign a nice big juicy contract with with Olympia directly.

TMS is in the business of such contracts. They know that the access needed by FOSS apps could be misused by others and jeopardize their business. Such abuse played a part in the demise of Z2L. They could have easily said no, but they've decided to give us a shot. TMS is hoping we'll do a better job keeping folks honest, partially because we have a bigger interest in it.

Does the contract have a lot of restrictions? Yes. But I see where TMS is coming from, and they do hold most of the cards.

Last, and least, there's the cost. I can buy a card with software which provides a schedule feed (from the same source!) indefinitely for not much more than what a year's worth of service would cost. Someone's getting a sweetheart deal from TMS, and someone's getting the shaft.
When you buy a card with data service, how long does that service need to last. Forever? They probably amortize the fee over 3-4 years into the price. If SD were to provide lifetime service, since it's not tied to aging hardware, it is a lifetime. You're not still using a 8 year old All-in-Wonder card are you?

What would you do if a piece of hardware stopping being able to get listings after 2-3 years? Sue? What if the company went out of business or was sold 2-3 times? SD is trying to provide a stable architecture.

I realize I probably won't change your mind, but maybe you'll see things are a bit more complicated than you realized.

Robert

I agree that the terms of the agreement are a bit ridiculous for anything to do with open source. On one hand one could argue that "interfacing" anything that's open source with something so restrictive is just as effective at stopping progress as putting Microsoft in charge of MythTV development (because novel uses of the data might be prohibited). Essentially, as this argument would go, the program isn't Free anymore because the developers' hands are tied when it comes to implementing certain features that would be beneficial to their users. The detractors of the one who supports this argument might say things like, "Boo hoo, just suck it up and be a good American consumer," or, "You should be grateful for how generous TMS is with their precious listings of things that you could find out by watching the TV, reading the paper, and using IMDB."

On the other hand, one could view this as a necessary compromise. It's either this, or MythTV becomes 90% useless. One must hope that it doesn't lead to a slippery slope of free software being made irrelevant by contract requirements on the networks that deliver that software, the systems that run it, and the media displayed by it.

Personally, I'm very reluctant to sign up with the agreement as it now stands. Over the summer my usage of MythTV has gone to zero anyway. I'd rather pay $5/mo for an on-demand, DRM-free, online TV service. People can get it now for free, through the legal gray area* of broadcast TV swapping, but in accordance with AVS Forum rules and good common sense, I'm not encouraging anybody to do anything illegal. As I said, I'd like to pay for a more reliable version of such a service.

Is there any middle ground to this?

* By gray area I mean something that's probably illegal, but morally permissible, and not likely to be aggressively prosecuted.

I agree that the terms of the agreement are a bit ridiculous for anything to do with open source. On one hand one could argue that "interfacing" anything that's open source with something so restrictive is just as effective at stopping progress as putting Microsoft in charge of MythTV development (because novel uses of the data might be prohibited).
You really lost me on this one. The data that MytvTV will be getting from SD will be just like what it got from lab2.zap2it.com (possibly even better at some point), which did, by the way, have pretty strict terms of use as well. What possible useful functionality within MythTV could ever be restricted by those terms?

Tom

You really lost me on this one. The data that MytvTV will be getting from SD will be just like what it got from lab2.zap2it.com (possibly even better at some point), which did, by the way, have pretty strict terms of use as well. What possible useful functionality within MythTV could ever be restricted by those terms?


By the letter of the agreement, copying the data into MythTVs database in the first place is forbidden, which removes all useful functionality. Backing up the part of MythTVs database which contains the guide data is also forbidden. If you're using some other non-approved application, grabbing the data with the (approved) xmltv application and then importing it into your unapproved application is forbidden.

Furthermore, it's less clear, but there's a question of whether a modified MythTV constitutes an "approved application" -- if it does not, then modifying MythTV denies you access to the guide data under the agreement. If it does, the restriction to "approved applications" is rather impotent.

It's one thing to put up with crap like that for free data, beggars not being choosers and all. But if I'm expected to pay for the data it changes the game; I expect more reasonable terms.

You really lost me on this one. The data that MytvTV will be getting from SD will be just like what it got from lab2.zap2it.com (possibly even better at some point), which did, by the way, have pretty strict terms of use as well. What possible useful functionality within MythTV could ever be restricted by those terms?

Tom

I was speaking both about this specific agreement (in particular the prohibition of backups), and the restrictive potential for supplemental agreements in general. I've only read through the agreement once, so I can't remember for sure, but there are some innovations that might be prohibited by such an agreement. Again, I'm speaking partly in reference to the actual agreement, and partly in the abstract.


MythTV already has mythweb. Though this case was already covered by Schedules Direct (password protection), just how many people can have the password? What if extended family will be visiting and I want to let them pick the shows that will be recorded before they arrive, so we can enjoy them while visiting?
What about archiving the data for personal curiosity? Suppose I want to go back to last month's data, because I've forgotten which episode of a particular show aired, so I can better understand the current episode? What if I want to write a module that lists how many times my favorite program has been preempted by something I don't like (showing me that I need to get in touch with my local network affiliate)?
MythTV could be altered to send me an SMS when a show I like is going to come on, in case I decide to watch it live. Would that constitute unauthorized duplication or transmission of data? It's a knowable fact that the show will air at some point -- why is that information "owned" by someone?
At some point there may be many control points in a house for MythTV, such as PDAs, phones, 3rd-party touch panels, PC-hardware touch panels, web tablets, etc. Where is the line drawn for what constitutes too much copying?
Nybbler also brought up the concern that a modified version of any of the approved programs might automatically become unapproved. This blocks all independent innovation, forks, etc. -- totally in violation of the principles of free software.
What about accidentally backing up the data along with regular storage backups? It would require unreasonable effort to make sure that the scheduling data doesn't get backed up with the data regarding one's recorded programs.
Finally, no offense, but words like "What possible useful functionality" seem to suggest that MythTV is already at its full potential, or that all possible good ideas have at least already been proposed and checked against the agreement, and that no further progress could possibly be made. I believe that otherwise good, intelligent people have used similar words throughout history to justify things as ridiculous as shutting down all patent applications shortly after the patent system was created, "because all the inventions we could possibly need have already been invented."


I just feel like somebody is trying to eat my cake and still have it afterwards to taunt me with. I also agree with Nybbler's point that, if we have to pay for something, we ought to get a little more for our money, especially if that something was once free. I can understand protecting the investment required to collect and distribute such data, but the current form of the agreement goes beyond that. Simply saying "don't share the raw data, or any form of it that would detract from its value, with people who don't pay for it" in legalese ought to be sufficient.

Your points are well taken, and I don't think I could answer most of them without being a lawyer. The wording is a bit strict even for "legalese".

I will say though, that a modified copy of MythTV is still MythTV (certainly according to the GPL it would be) and is in the approved application list. If a new project under a different name were forked off, then I'm sure it would have to be added to the list of approved apps in order to use the data. Unless you modified MythTV in a way that violated one of the other terms I don't see anything in the agreement indicating it'd be an issue.

In your first post you said the wording was a bit strict for something to do with open source. I have a feeling that TMS insisted on such strict wording because the apps in involved are open source. Actually, the part about "making archived copies" (which I agree should at least mention the allowance for personal backups...and they're apparently looking into that) appears to be the only significant thing in the agreement that wasn't in the labs.zap2it.com agreement in some form, and I don't understand why you would think that TMS would be more lax about the agreement because it's not free.

I think the main thing I don't understand is what you think SD should have done differently. They has lawyers working for them and apparently this is the only way TMS would allow this to happen, and the only other option probably would have been nothing at all.

By the way...are you saying that you'd want to leave your mythweb open to the internet without a password? Ouch...I sure never would.

Tom

I agree that term (vi) of paragraph 2 is a too restrictive and does not reflect the actual use of the data as envisioned in any of the approved apps:

"(vi) make or archive copies of Licensed Data"

Essentially, the restrictions should cover copying the data for use by one other than the licensee. As for the other board members bitching about the existence of a service agreement, be realistic and give these guys a break. They actually had the drive to put something together for the community to cover our TV listing needs. By forming Schedules Direct, licensing data, and selling access to it, these guys have taken on VERY real legal risks, for OUR benefit. The United States is a highly litigious society, it would be insane for them to undertake a venture like this and not include indemnification clauses, forum selection clauses, etc.

I think the main thing I don't understand is what you think SD should have done differently. They has lawyers working for them and apparently this is the only way TMS would allow this to happen, and the only other option probably would have been nothing at all.

I think the point I was trying to make is that, while I feel that SD is a good thing (so long as the agreement is made a bit more palatable), some could argue that making an Open Source or Free Software application depend on restricted data and adhere to a non-OSI contract is at best diluting and at worst poisoning or crippling the very purpose of OSS/FS. I'd bet that the Free Software camp would have a stronger opinion than the Open Source camp. I think that, in that argument, foregoing scheduling data would be the better alternative. It's not necessarily my opinion, it's just a suggestion for consideration.

By the way...are you saying that you'd want to leave your mythweb open to the internet without a password? Ouch...I sure never would.

No, but there are web sites that allow a person to share his/her music preferences by displaying favorite artists, most recently played tracks, etc, and if something similar were added to MythTV it could be considered unauthorized duplication or distribution of guide data. So, such a contract clause would be artificially limiting the technological potential of MythTV.

Edit: I think it needs to be more clear what exactly can be considered proprietary to TMS, and what is public domain/uncopyrightable. For example, I would think that episode and show titles could be shown or copied in a form such as that suggested in the previous paragraph, as they can be obtained through many different means, including watching the free-to-air broadcasts. However, I would think that, if those episode names are tied with detailed scheduling information and/or descriptions that were obtained from the original XML data, that would not be okay.

You guys raise good points on the licensing. But, I guess my use of the guide data is straightforward enough that I have little concern that licensing problems will impact my use of the guide or MythTV.

I'm probably numb to the concept of licensing by now anyway.. I mean, I use commercial DVDs on Linux systems, I sometimes use WWW sites with silly click-through licenses, I use commercial software with poor terms. To me, this one doesn't make it to my pain/laziness threshold.

The recently added a forum to the schedules direct site. That would probably be a more effective place to voice your concerns:
http://forums.schedulesdirect.org/

The SchedulesDirect patches are in mythtv trunk now, I jumped in the first 100-user beta group yesterday and updated SVN. Everything seems to be working just fine.

I signed up lastnight just to get my account setup. Does anyone know when the MythTV changes will hit the Ubuntu packages?

I signed up lastnight just to get my account setup. Does anyone know when the MythTV changes will hit the Ubuntu packages?

That's a good question. The distro packages are based on 0.20-fixes, not SVN for 0.21. So, it's probably a safe assumption that this will also be backported to 0.20-fixes, and possibly earlier versions.

Even if it does get ported, it's gonna take a while to get it packaged, tested, and distributed.. Hopefully Zap2it will extend their service to cover an overlap period.

That's a good question. The distro packages are based on 0.20-fixes, not SVN for 0.21. So, it's probably a safe assumption that this will also be backported to 0.20-fixes, and possibly earlier versions.

Even if it does get ported, it's gonna take a while to get it packaged, tested, and distributed.. Hopefully Zap2it will extend their service to cover an overlap period.

I don't think there has been any mention of an extension of Zap2itLabs service. But most DataDirect users will still have 12-14 days of listings data on 9/1 when Z2L shuts down. And the fall premieres don't really seem to start until mid-September anyway.

I don't think there has been any mention of an extension of Zap2itLabs service. But most DataDirect users will still have 12-14 days of listings data on 9/1 when Z2L shuts down. And the fall premieres don't really seem to start until mid-September anyway.

Good call. I'm just hoping that the Schedules Direct changes make their way into the Ubuntu packages quicker than the MythWeather fixes (still not there) :D

Good call. I'm just hoping that the Schedules Direct changes make their way into the Ubuntu packages quicker than the MythWeather fixes (still not there) :D

The ubuntu mythtv package maintainer says they'll be in there by the 14th.

The ubuntu mythtv package maintainer says they'll be in there by the 14th.

What changes really need to be made anyway? I went through the mythfilldatabase code the other night and found the zap2it url in one or two places. I assume one could just replace that and recompile. Or possibly just redirect it in resolv.conf.

According to this SVN ticket, the changes have been backported to the 0.20-fixes branch.
http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/3842

I recently compiled MythTV from source, just to see if I could. Here's the notes that I made on how to do it. I used Suse 10.2.

============================================================ ==============

How to Compile MythTV With Support for DVB, XvMC and HDTV.

============================================================ ==============

If you are going to use subversion, execute the following instructions
to obtain the latest version of MythTV:

$ mkdir mythtv
$ cd mythtv
$ svn co http://svn.mythtv.org/svn/trunk/mythtv
$ svn co http://svn.mythtv.org/svn/trunk/mythplugins
$ svn co http://svn.mythtv.org/svn/trunk/myththemes
$ cd mythtv

If you are using the tarball, then unpack it:

$ tar -xjf mythtv-0.20.tar.bz2
$ cd mythtv-0.20
$ ./configure

============================================================ ==============


Make sure you have all of the prerequisites installed:

For more information see the README file in the main mythtv directory.

libttf
libmp3lame
QT - Version 3.1 or greater
MySQL
XMLTV

I found that I also needed to install these:

kernel sources
libqt3-devel
qt3-mysql (to get the database to work)

(I may have forgot some)

============================================================ ==============

To enable certain functions, add them to the './configure' command.

If you wish to change options, run ./configure --help to see what is
available and to override the automatically detected options.

cd to the mythtv folder, and enter the following:

./configure --enable-dvb --enable-xvmc --enable-proc-opt

(This will give this output):

# Basic Settings
Compile type release
Compiler cache no
DistCC no
Install prefix /usr/local
CPU x86 (model name : Mobile Intel(R) Pentium(R)
4 CPU 2.80GHz)
Big Endian no
MMX enabled yes

# Input Support
Joystick menu yes
lirc support yes
Apple Remote no
Video4Linux sup. yes
ivtv support yes
FireWire support no
DVB support yes [/usr/include]
DBox2 support yes
HDHomeRun sup. yes
CRC Ip Rec sup. yes
FreeBox support yes

# Sound Output Support
OSS support yes
ALSA support yes
aRts support yes
JACK support yes
DTS passthrough yes

# Video Output Support
x11 support yes
xrandr support yes
xv support yes
XvMC support yes
XvMC VLD support yes
XvMC pro support no
XvMC OpenGL sup. no
XvMC libs -lXvMCW
Mac accel. no
OpenGL vsync no
DirectFB no

# Misc Features
Frontend yes
Backend yes

# Bindings
bindings_perl no
Creating libs/libmyth/mythconfig.h and libs/libmyth/mythconfig.mak

WARNING: When using --enable-proc-opt you must include the
output of ./configure along with any bug report.

============================================================ ==============

On a single CPU machine, you would type the following to compile MythTV:

$ qmake mythtv.pro
$ make

============================================================ ==============

Once the compile is done, switch to superuser:

$ su
# make install
# exit

============================================================ ==============

For the Myth Plugins, you will have to download and compile them
seperately. This should be done after the MythTV compile and installation.

============================================================ ==============

According to this SVN ticket, the changes have been backported to the 0.20-fixes branch.
http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/3842

I recently compiled MythTV from source, just to see if I could. Here's the notes that I made on how to do it. I used Suse 10.2.


That's great...but why should anyone have to completely redownload and recompile the entire mythtv distribution, when all that is needed is to change ONE program within it...that being mythfilldatabase ?? Seems to me that's overkill.

Someone should post a source tar for that file alone, IMHO.

I have never been able to upgrade MythTV to a newer version, I always ended up reinstalling. I see no reason this would be any different.

MythTV is constantly being improved and changed. That is why all connected myth boxes have to be running the same exact version.

On the other hand, it may be possible to just compile/install the 0.20-fixes branch. Does anyone want to try, and report on the outcome?

Just did it today using the script that cecil (KnoppMyth builder) posted over in the KM forums at mysettopbox.tv. Only built and installed XMLTV 0.58.2 plus myth and the plugins from the svn 0.20-fixes branch. Haven't gone into mythtv-setup yet and reconfigured for SD because I can't get an account with them until they open it up again, but I should be good to go now.

Can you post that script here? Every time I try to view a thread at the KM forums, it asks for a password!

What changes really need to be made anyway? I went through the mythfilldatabase code the other night and found the zap2it url in one or two places. I assume one could just replace that and recompile. Or possibly just redirect it in resolv.conf.

One would think that, but I've been told on other forums that the changes are more in depth than just changing a few URLs. I don't know the details though.

One would think that, but I've been told on other forums that the changes are more in depth than just changing a few URLs. I don't know the details though.

Here's the trac ticket that adds SchedulesDirect support with the details: http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/3842

There's a programid database field that is 2 chars wider in the new feed, if that isn't changed then programid comparisons will fail, effectively defeating the previously-recorded-program detection. The patch contains code to fix this, has been in SVN trunk for a few days and also ported to the 0.20-fixes branch. I think the various packagers are working on their updates now.

Here's the commands to update KM to svn 0.20-fixes that cecil posted in the KM forum. Note that you probably shouldn't upgrade until you get an SD account because mythfilldatabase will use the new URL afterwards (and you won't get listings).


wget http://internap.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/xmltv/xmltv-0.5.48.tar.bz2
tar xjvf xml<tab>
cd xml<tab>
perl Ma<tab> PREFIX=/usr
make
make test
su
make install
exit
cd..
svn co http://svn.mythtv.org/svn/branches/release-0-20-fixes/mythtv
svn co http://svn.mythtv.org/svn/branches/release-0-20-fixes/mythplugins
cd mythtv
./configure --prefix=/usr --arch=i586 --enable-dvb --enable-firewire --dvb-path=/usr/include --enable-xvmc --enable-xvmc-vld --enable-opengl-vsync --enable-mmx --enable-proc-opt --enable-memalign-hack --enable-xvmc-pro
qmake mythtv.pro
make
su
make install
exit
cd ../mythp<tab>
./configure --prefix=/usr --enable-all --disable-festival --enable-fftw --enable-sdl --enable-aac --enable-new-exif
qmake mythplugins.pro
make
su
make install

He also posted an update for mythweather, which apparently breaks after you install the svn 0.20-fixes branch:


cd /tmp/
mkdir mythweather
cd mythweather
wget http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/export/13313/trunk/mythplugins/mythweather/mythweather/main.cpp
wget http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/export/13313/trunk/mythplugins/mythweather/mythweather/mythweather.pro
wget http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/export/13313/trunk/mythplugins/mythweather/mythweather/weather.cpp
wget http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/export/13313/trunk/mythplugins/mythweather/mythweather/weather.h

qmake

wget http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/raw-attachment/ticket/3327/mythweather2.patch
wget http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/raw-attachment/ticket/3327/icons1.zip
wget http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/raw-attachment/ticket/3327/icons2.zip
wget http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/raw-attachment/ticket/3327/icons3.zip
wget http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/raw-attachment/ticket/3327/icons4.zip

patch < mythweather2.patch

make
cp libmythweather.so /usr/lib/mythtv/plugins/

unzip icons\?.zip -d /usr/share/mythtv/themes/default

Thanks

I'll pass this info along to my Linux user group. Heck, I may break down and sign up for schedules direct, someday.

I can't tell if this will work with other distros, I guess trial and error will tell.

Forgot to add some important steps, what to do after you upgrade myth from svn source (sorry! and thanks again cecil!).

Once SD goes live (if KnoppMyth R5Fx isn't out):

1) Get and install the latest XMLTV (0.5.48 as of this writing) from xmltv.org. (done above)
2) Get and install the latest -fixes (mythtv and plugins). (done above)
3) Signup for Schedules Direct (when it goes public).
4) Create lineup on SD site.
5) Run mythtv-setup (<alt><s> (make sure you stop the backend <alt><2>)).
6) Delete all video sources.
7) Create lineup using SD.
8) Run mythfilldatabase --refresh-all (give it a moment to start grabbing the listing)
9) Bind the new SD source to your input as usual.
10) Enjoy (exit mythtv-setup, start the backend <alt><1> and start the frontend <alt><m>)!

Here's the commands to update KM to svn 0.20-fixes that cecil posted in the KM forum. Note that you probably shouldn't upgrade until you get an SD account because mythfilldatabase will use the new URL afterwards (and you won't get listings).


It won't matter for very long (about another week or so when Z2L shuts down), but in trunk SVN that I am running (and I assume the same is true for the 0.20-fixes branch) you can select in mythtv-setup from grabbers for SchedulesDirect, DataDirect, Australia, UK, whatever - updating to add the possiblity of using Schedules Direct does not at all lock you out of still using DataDirect from Zap2it Labs (until 9/1).

This thread (http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/285022) says that you don't have to delete your old Z2L source to add the SD source, akin to what h_a_h is saying. So you should be able to run mythtv-setup and switch grabbers on the fly after upgrading to the latest myth source (either 0.20-fixes or trunk). This is a little easier than what cecil posted (and I copied above) in the KM thread.

But I think most folks are going to wait until packages are released next week and just upgrade from those.

But I think most folks are going to wait until packages are released next week and just upgrade from those.

That's my plan. I'm going to do my last zap2it update on 8/31 and wait a bit till the initial rush subsides before migrating over. We should probably list when the updates start hitting the binary packages from the various distros. I'm running Ubuntu on my MythTV box.

That's my plan. I'm going to do my last zap2it update on 8/31 and wait a bit till the initial rush subsides before migrating over. We should probably list when the updates start hitting the binary packages from the various distros. I'm running Ubuntu on my MythTV box.

Me three. Also running ubuntu, although my master backend is running on edgy. I'm assuming the packages will be there for gutsy, feisty, edgy, and maybe even dapper for backports. The maintainer has been good about that.

SD has reopened for new signups. I think I'm going to wait until Z2L is truly dead because I'll still have 2 weeks of listings from then.

I didn't want to wait, so I upgraded from feisty to gutsy. I have a HDHomerun (both tuners using QAM) and a Happauge tuner, all of which are grabbing data from Schedules Direct without a hitch. It looks like the data itself is still hosted by tmsdatadirect.com.

I installed mythtv (for SD) running on Dapper two days ago. It seems pretty stable and all the SD guide info is coming in an looks good. It was somewhat painless, except having to recompile (using above guidelines). I have a few packages that are older than they should be on Dapper but they all seem to work ok. I guess I will upgrade to feisty when I get back from a trip in a couple of weeks. I've been putting this off due to this same server is running my mail,ftp,ssh,apache,samba and quite a few other server apps and it is working really well, so much so, that I don't want to upgrade. :)

Packages for Feisty & Edgy are in the "proposed" repos. Initial feedback is good and it should be in the universe repos very soon:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=536555

Packages for Feisty & Edgy are in the "proposed" repos. Initial feedback is good and it should be in the universe repos very soon:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=536555

I was planning on upgrading my systems this weekend, but this looked pretty easy, and I don't have any scheduled recordings until Thursday, so I went ahead and did it on my Edgy and Feisty backends and it went fine, save for a small configuration issue with mythweb. Some have said this package also has a working mythweather plugin, but it doesn't work for me over mythweb, and I'll check to see if it works on my frontend when I get home (and make sure I actually updated it :)

FWIW, all I did was modify my video sources to use schedules direct. I didn't delete any and recreate new ones. So I can confirm you don't need to delete your video sources.

Literally, this takes as long as it takes to download and update your system. Reconfiguring is 5 minutes. Might take longer to setup your schedules direct account.

Mythweather does work with the ubuntu packages. However I can't get it to work with mythweb. I don't know why. Any ideas?

Mythweather does work with the ubuntu packages. However I can't get it to work with mythweb. I don't know why. Any ideas?

I upgraded and have the same issue. Not a big deal as I really don't use MythWeather via MythWeb. Overall the upgrade was pretty painless. I'm satisfied.

I upgraded and have the same issue. Not a big deal as I really don't use MythWeather via MythWeb. Overall the upgrade was pretty painless. I'm satisfied.

Agreed! I don't use via mythweb either... (forecastfox is all I need).