Watched "WE WERE SOLDIERS" last night. Powerful film!

I was REALLY disappointed with the picture quality though. The early scenes in the film has an edgy and smeared look to them. Very soft and grainy. Also I noticed (for the first time on my Tosh XE1) some "judder", it was all very distracting and disappointing... taking me out of the movie.

The sound was MUCH better and quite immersive. Bullets and explosions came from everywhere, but I also struggled to understand what everyone was shouting and saying. Especially Sam Elliott's mumbling hard-case sergeant Plumley!

Is it just me or is this movie a disappointment on HD-DVD. Especially the poor picture. Anyone??? :confused:

We Were Soldiers is one of my favourite movies and I had it on SD-DVD and now have it on HD-DVD. The HD disc is a worthy upgrade on the SD disc - it's quite grainy (in keeping with the director's purpose) but is nevertheless to my eyes nice and sharp and detailed. I can't equate what I see on my copy with the way you described yours. Definitely a top tier 2/lower tier one quality title IMO.

It is a grainy film, washed out and desaturated colors, that is the directors intent,

Yes it is a washed out and grainy film, however still much better PQ than the SD version. I never noticed this jaggyness that you are seeing.

Yeah, it is intentional grain. I love this movie on HD DVD, the sound is fantastic.

yeah there is a lot of grain. i kinda pissed me off in the beginning. but now im used to it. also i had no idea that was the directors intent. does anyone know why?

yeah there is a lot of grain. i kinda pissed me off in the beginning. but now im used to it. also i had no idea that was the directors intent. does anyone know why?

It seems like a technique to keep the film harsh. Most old films of WWII and Vietnam look like they were captured on low quality cameras which have a lot of grain

I just watched this movie a couple of nights ago, and I agree it doesnt look all that good as far as PQ. And as far as director intent - how do we know that it REALLY was the director's intent? I didnt see any disclaimers saying "The movie you are about to watch is gonna look like crap, but don't you worry - the director had to try really hard for it to look as bad as possible". I see the "director intent" excuse every single time when PQ is poor.

looks as intended. sounds better now as well. i initially had to do battle to the finish watching the movie because of the lip sync issues from the xbox add-on, but now they are fixed.

I just watched this movie a couple of nights ago, and I agree it doesnt look all that good as far as PQ. And as far as director intent - how do we know that it REALLY was the director's intent?
From what I recall, it looked the same way in the theater.

I suspect you'll be disappointed with all the grain on an upcoming glorious title as well.

From what I recall, it looked the same way in the theater.

I suspect you'll be disappointed with all the grain on an upcoming glorious title as well.
I've never seen this movie in the theater, so I couldnt tell. But last night I watched Children of Men and Unleashed, and they both looked way way better than We Were Soldiers. And as I always say - if I want grain - I watch VCR. There have been a very few movies that I've seen on HD DVD and havent been impressed with, and We Were Soldiers was one of them

One of the best sound mixes out there on HD DVD, and I wish people would stop expecting King King-esque PQ on every dang title. Some movies simply look better than others.

And as far as director intent - how do we know that it REALLY was the director's intent? I didnt see any disclaimers saying "The movie you are about to watch is gonna look like crap, but don't you worry - the director had to try really hard for it to look as bad as possible". I see the "director intent" excuse every single time when PQ is poor.

Go buy a magazine called American Cinematographer. It explains the intent of the director and of the cinematographer. It tells you what film and lenses they used to shoot the movie and why they used specific ones.

personally, the visual gives me the feeling that the movie was indeed, filmed in the past. can't name one off the top of my head, but i've watched other wars of the past movies shot in higher quality and it just seemed overly 'mock' and i just can't get into it. too 'hollywood'.

edit: at the same time, the pq of this hd dvd is far superior than sd. i'm diggin' it over here. <-----

yeah the movie is awesome. my favorite part is when the guy gets the phosphorus grenade thrown at him and it explodes all over his face!!

yeah, then they have to dig it out with a survival knife. yikes! or am i thinking of when the planes lit the field up?

no you got it right, when the planes come in the photographer turned soldier has to try and drag the asian american soldier to the chopper to fly him out but then the skin slides down hsi legs. that part was insanely nasty yet still so awesome!!!

this was the very first hd dvd i purchased. i even ordered it before i got my hd dvd player.

yeah i just bought it two days ago and watched it yesterday. it was awesome!!!

Go buy a magazine called American Cinematographer. It explains the intent of the director and of the cinematographer. It tells you what film and lenses they used to shoot the movie and why they used specific ones.
That would be nice to know in advance what to expect from an HD DVD movie - weather it's a director's intent or simply a crappy transfer. I'll look for this magazine next time I'm in the grocery store - I think it would be an interesting read. And it would shut me up next time I watch a not too perfect transfer if I know they messed up the PQ on purpose.
I still have a comment though. I am an average person. And when I spend thousands of dollars to buy an HDTV, HD DVD player, a new HDMI receiver and new entertainment furniture to accomodate all of the above - AND then pay extra for HD DVD disk instead of SD DVD version - I want to see PQ that would make me feel good about spending all that money. I understand that We Were Soldiers might have been filmed that way on purpose. But to me - poor PQ is poor PQ regardless if it was done on purpose or by accident. And I wouldnt spend extra on HD DVD for a movie that looked like that. SD DVD would be just fine. Just my opinion :)

if I want grain - I watch VCR.

Last time i checedk VHS was riddled with noise not film grain.

That would be nice to know in advance what to expect from an HD DVD movie - weather it's a director's intent or simply a crappy transfer. I'll look for this magazine next time I'm in the grocery store - I think it would be an interesting read. And it would shut me up next time I watch a not too perfect transfer if I know they messed up the PQ on purpose.
I still have a comment though. I am an average person. And when I spend thousands of dollars to buy an HDTV, HD DVD player, a new HDMI receiver and new entertainment furniture to accomodate all of the above - AND then pay extra for HD DVD disk instead of SD DVD version - I want to see PQ that would make me feel good about spending all that money. I understand that We Were Soldiers might have been filmed that way on purpose. But to me - poor PQ is poor PQ regardless if it was done on purpose or by accident. And I wouldnt spend extra on HD DVD for a movie that looked like that. SD DVD would be just fine. Just my opinion :)

fear not... you'll whether the storm. ;) :rolleyes:

That would be nice to know in advance what to expect from an HD DVD movie - weather it's a director's intent or simply a crappy transfer. I'll look for this magazine next time I'm in the grocery store - I think it would be an interesting read. And it would shut me up next time I watch a not too perfect transfer if I know they messed up the PQ on purpose.
I still have a comment though. I am an average person. And when I spend thousands of dollars to buy an HDTV, HD DVD player, a new HDMI receiver and new entertainment furniture to accomodate all of the above - AND then pay extra for HD DVD disk instead of SD DVD version - I want to see PQ that would make me feel good about spending all that money. I understand that We Were Soldiers might have been filmed that way on purpose. But to me - poor PQ is poor PQ regardless if it was done on purpose or by accident. And I wouldnt spend extra on HD DVD for a movie that looked like that. SD DVD would be just fine. Just my opinion :)

I suggest you go to their website and read an article they have about 'Live Free and Die Hard' to get an idea about the magazine. They are usually pretty technical, so it's sort of a dry read. You will get the information, just don't expect to be 'entertained'.

american cinematographer (http://www.ascmag.com/magazine_dynamic/July2007/current.php)

- they messed up the PQ on purpose.-
- But to me - poor PQ is poor PQ regardless if it was done on purpose or by accident. And I wouldnt spend extra on HD DVD for a movie that looked like that. SD DVD would be just fine. Just my opinion :)

The problem here is I read your statements as follows "grain=bad PQ", which is FAR from the case. I find that We Were Soldiers has great PQ despite it's grain, it's an extreamly detailed movie with many very sharp scenes, just because a title has grain does not detract from the PQ, FILM has GRAIN naturally, you shouldn' t be expecting Discovery HD video HD from titles, especially when comparing to the SD version the HD-DVD is a huge step up.

just watch both dvd formats side by side and come back and post your findings...gimme a break.

Last time i checedk VHS was riddled with noise not film grain.
I'm not very technical, but from what I understand - noise is something that digital cameras have. VHS is not digital but analog, therefore, it doesnt have noise - it has grain. When they film a movie with digital video cameras - often they add grain artificially. My VCR does that same thing - adds grain artificially to any movie I watch on it. Is it riddled with noise? Who knows - maybe that is how the directors intended :D

I suggest you go to their website and read an article they have about 'Live Free and Die Hard' to get an idea about the magazine. They are usually pretty technical, so it's sort of a dry read. You will get the information, just don't expect to be 'entertained'.

american cinematographer (http://www.ascmag.com/magazine_dynamic/July2007/current.php)
Thank you very much for the link! This movie is my favorite movie of the year so far! I really hope they would release it on HD DVD. One can dream, right :D

The problem here is I read your statements as follows "grain=bad PQ", which is FAR from the case. I find that We Were Soldiers has great PQ despite it's grain, it's an extreamly detailed movie with many very sharp scenes, just because a title has grain does not detract from the PQ, FILM has GRAIN naturally, you shouldn' t be expecting Discovery HD video HD from titles, especially when comparing to the SD version the HD-DVD is a huge step up.
This is not what I was trying to say. I've watched a lot of movies that looked grainy - the latest being Children of Men last night. It looked grainy and at the same time it looked great. We were soldiers looked grainy, but didnt look great. I'm only expressing my own opinion, of course

just watch both dvd formats side by side and come back and post your findings...gimme a break.
I have A2 and PS3 conneced via HDMI to Onkyo receiver, and often I do just that - put HD DVD version of a movie in A2 and SD DVD version in PS3, or vice-versa. Sometimes there's a difference between hi-def and SD DVD, and sometimes not so much. I dont know if it's a little upconversion magic or anything else though

Yes... in the stuff with all the wives (Madelaine Stowe, Keri Russell etc) the picture quality is downright "fuzzy". Intentional or not it looks crap on my copy! Check out the farewell party/dance where Gibson finds out that his platoon number has been changed to the same as Custers. The picture is jerky and poor. The picture in the trailer is far better! It might be my copy so I'm gonna try and get it changed.:(

By the way, what on earth has Madelaine Stowe done to her lips?!!! :eek:

This is not what I was trying to say. I've watched a lot of movies that looked grainy - the latest being Children of Men last night. It looked grainy and at the same time it looked great. We were soldiers looked grainy, but didnt look great. I'm only expressing my own opinion, of course

As others have said, it was the filmakers intent and I feel it works to make it feel like you were there, 40 years ago.

I had mixed feelings about this film as a whole, but I thought the HD DVD picture was decent.

But, what happened to Madeline Stowe? She used to be one of the most beautiful women in the world, but it looks like Michael Jackson's plastic surgeon got a hold of her.

That would be nice to know in advance what to expect from an HD DVD movie - weather it's a director's intent or simply a crappy transfer. I'll look for this magazine next time I'm in the grocery store - I think it would be an interesting read. And it would shut me up next time I watch a not too perfect transfer if I know they messed up the PQ on purpose.
I still have a comment though. I am an average person. And when I spend thousands of dollars to buy an HDTV, HD DVD player, a new HDMI receiver and new entertainment furniture to accomodate all of the above - AND then pay extra for HD DVD disk instead of SD DVD version - I want to see PQ that would make me feel good about spending all that money. I understand that We Were Soldiers might have been filmed that way on purpose. But to me - poor PQ is poor PQ regardless if it was done on purpose or by accident. And I wouldnt spend extra on HD DVD for a movie that looked like that. SD DVD would be just fine. Just my opinion :)

If you just expect the film's presentation to look like it did at a decent theatre, then what you see from HD DVD should meet your expectations. If you expect it to look BETTER than it did at a decent theatre -- then what on earth would cause you to expect that? Think about it for a minute!

PS. HD DVD is just a delivery medium. It is meant to do nothing more than be faithful to the original material. It's not meant to magically transform everything into looking like a modern HiDef Pro Football game or ultra-flash summer blockbuster!

I thought this HD DVD looked great. I'm watching on a 118" wide 2.35:1 screen with a dVision 1080p projector from about 1.25 screen widths too. You want grain, watch Caddyshack. Which still looks better on HD DVD than I've ever seen it!

I don't own this disc personally, but I watched a friends SD DVD version. I believe that in the "Making of" section of the SD DVD the cinematographer, Dean Semler, mentions he purposely chose the washed out grainy effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_grain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_noise

Know the difference.

Wikipedia: for when you're too lazy to do your own research.

I had mixed feelings about this film as a whole, but I thought the HD DVD picture was decent.

But, what happened to Madeline Stowe? She used to be one of the most beautiful women in the world, but it looks like Michael Jackson's plastic surgeon got a hold of her.

She looks pretty damned hot when I watch her on my SDDVD copy.

Maybe ignorance is bliss and we should all forget about Hidef. :p

If you listen to the commentary for we were soldiers, you know that the look the movie had is what the director wanted.

HighDef isnt there for improving picture, its there to not distort the picture.

Watched "WE WERE SOLDIERS" last night. Powerful film!

I was REALLY disappointed with the picture quality though. The early scenes in the film has an edgy and smeared look to them. Very soft and grainy. Also I noticed (for the first time on my Tosh XE1) some "judder", it was all very distracting and disappointing... taking me out of the movie.

The sound was MUCH better and quite immersive. Bullets and explosions came from everywhere, but I also struggled to understand what everyone was shouting and saying. Especially Sam Elliott's mumbling hard-case sergeant Plumley!

Is it just me or is this movie a disappointment on HD-DVD. Especially the poor picture. Anyone??? :confused:

This was really the first film to go through the entire Digital Intermediate process, and the look of the HD DVD is exactly what the original negative prints looked like, grain and softness included.

The level of the dialog is intentional. Randall Wallace wanted some of the dialog to get lost in the frenzy, and I worked really hard to make the dialog hard to understnad in some places. :)

It should also be noted that this transfer is from the original print masters we made, and this is one case where I would've preferred we had gone in and re-mastered for home video release and I would've turned up a bit of the dialog.. on the other hand, this is one track that will exactly match what we intended for theatrical reproduction and really benefits from a properly calibrated set up.

This was really the first film to go through the entire Digital Intermediate process, and the look of the HD DVD is exactly what the original negative prints looked like, grain and softness included.

The level of the dialog is intentional. Randall Wallace wanted some of the dialog to get lost in the frenzy, and I worked really hard to make the dialog hard to understnad in some places. :)

It should also be noted that this transfer is from the original print masters we made, and this is one case where I would've preferred we had gone in and re-mastered for home video release and I would've turned up a bit of the dialog.. on the other hand, this is one track that will exactly match what we intended for theatrical reproduction and really benefits from a properly calibrated set up.

Well, there you have it. You really can't have a more definitive post than this one about the director's intent.

This was really the first film to go through the entire Digital Intermediate process, and the look of the HD DVD is exactly what the original negative prints looked like, grain and softness included.

The level of the dialog is intentional. Randall Wallace wanted some of the dialog to get lost in the frenzy, and I worked really hard to make the dialog hard to understnad in some places. :)

It should also be noted that this transfer is from the original print masters we made, and this is one case where I would've preferred we had gone in and re-mastered for home video release and I would've turned up a bit of the dialog.. on the other hand, this is one track that will exactly match what we intended for theatrical reproduction and really benefits from a properly calibrated set up.

Straight from the horse's mouth... Thanks :) !!

This was really the first film to go through the entire Digital Intermediate process, and the look of the HD DVD is exactly what the original negative prints looked like, grain and softness included.

The level of the dialog is intentional. Randall Wallace wanted some of the dialog to get lost in the frenzy, and I worked really hard to make the dialog hard to understnad in some places. :)

It should also be noted that this transfer is from the original print masters we made, and this is one case where I would've preferred we had gone in and re-mastered for home video release and I would've turned up a bit of the dialog.. on the other hand, this is one track that will exactly match what we intended for theatrical reproduction and really benefits from a properly calibrated set up.
Thanks for the reponse for us. This should about end this discussion now. :)

I just watched this movie a couple of nights ago, and I agree it doesnt look all that good as far as PQ. And as far as director intent - how do we know that it REALLY was the director's intent? I didnt see any disclaimers saying "The movie you are about to watch is gonna look like crap, but don't you worry - the director had to try really hard for it to look as bad as possible". I see the "director intent" excuse every single time when PQ is poor.

Watch it in the theatre for a start.

If you have poor contrast display devices the dark scenes will not have the pop and shadow delineation which this movie has and needs. I found the dark scenes great and clear with great shadow detail and in fact they were better than the intentionally grainy day scenes.

Watch it in the theatre for a start.

If you have poor contrast display devices the dark scenes will not have the pop and shadow delineation which this movie has and needs. I found the dark scenes great and clear with great shadow detail and in fact they were better than the intentionally grainy day scenes.
I didnt know this was still playing in the theaters??
And as FilmMixer said in his earlier post here - this was really a director's intent, so I'm going to shut up and stop bitching. :) Well...I still have a comment though. I usually don't compare an HD DVD movie to what it looked like in the theater - how can I remember? I might compare it sometimes to an SD DVD version - if I happen to have a movie on both formats. But most of the time - as stupid as it sounds - I compare an HD DVD movie to another HD DVD movie. For example, I watch MI3, and then I watch Unleashed, and then I watch Children of Men, and then I watch We Were Soldiers. And then I think - wow, Children of Men looked great. Unleashed looked great. MI3 looked decent. We were soldiers looked bad. I know it's not the right way to compare, but still - this is how I decide for myself what to buy after renting everything first. If the movie is interesting and PQ looks good - I'd buy it on HD DVD. If the movie was good but PQ was bad - I would wait until the SD DVD goes on sale for $3.99, but wouldnt pay $25 for HD DVD version. I'm not loaded like some of you might be, and if the PQ is not outstanding - I dont see any insentive for me to spend extra. :)

I didnt know this was still playing in the theaters??
And as FilmMixer said in his earlier post here - this was really a director's intent, so I'm going to shut up and stop bitching. :) Well...I still have a comment though. I usually don't compare an HD DVD movie to what it looked like in the theater - how can I remember? I might compare it sometimes to an SD DVD version - if I happen to have a movie on both formats. But most of the time - as stupid as it sounds - I compare an HD DVD movie to another HD DVD movie. For example, I watch MI3, and then I watch Unleashed, and then I watch Children of Men, and then I watch We Were Soldiers. And then I think - wow, Children of Men looked great. Unleashed looked great. MI3 looked decent. We were soldiers looked bad. I know it's not the right way to compare, but still - this is how I decide for myself what to buy after renting everything first. If the movie is interesting and PQ looks good - I'd buy it on HD DVD. If the movie was good but PQ was bad - I would wait until the SD DVD goes on sale for $3.99, but wouldnt pay $25 for HD DVD version. I'm not loaded like some of you might be, and if the PQ is not outstanding - I dont see any insentive for me to spend extra. :)

That's fine, just sit back and recognize, it's NOT bad PQ -- it's CORRECT PQ. If you only want to purchase films on HD DVD that look flash, no problem, but it doesn't mean there's something wrong with the film's image quality on HD DVD, it just means you prefer SD DVD for non-flash films!

That's fine, just sit back and recognize, it's NOT bad PQ -- it's CORRECT PQ. If you only want to purchase films on HD DVD that look flash, no problem, but it doesn't mean there's something wrong with the film's image quality on HD DVD, it just means you prefer SD DVD for non-flash films!
I couldnt have said that better myself - thank you :)

Has anyone had a problem playing this disc in a gen 1 machine ?

I get a "NO HDMI LINK" error on my HD-A1 when I try and play this disc.

It works fine in my 360 addon, and none of the 60 or so other HD DVDs that I own have exhibited this problem.

Anyone have any ideas ?

Cheers,

Andrew.

That would be nice to know in advance what to expect from an HD DVD movie - weather it's a director's intent or simply a crappy transfer. I'll look for this magazine next time I'm in the grocery store - I think it would be an interesting read. And it would shut me up next time I watch a not too perfect transfer if I know they messed up the PQ on purpose.
I still have a comment though. I am an average person. And when I spend thousands of dollars to buy an HDTV, HD DVD player, a new HDMI receiver and new entertainment furniture to accomodate all of the above - AND then pay extra for HD DVD disk instead of SD DVD version - I want to see PQ that would make me feel good about spending all that money. I understand that We Were Soldiers might have been filmed that way on purpose. But to me - poor PQ is poor PQ regardless if it was done on purpose or by accident. And I wouldnt spend extra on HD DVD for a movie that looked like that. SD DVD would be just fine. Just my opinion :)

To bad they dont put average person warning stickers on the cases. You'll just have to research the movies you buy before you buy them. There are a handful of sites that review picture quality so you shouldnt have this problem in the future. In fact... had you done your home work (http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/weweresoldiers.html#Section3) , you'd of known what to expect. The average J6P doesnt know any better though and will buy a movie thinking that all movies are 5 star PQ with zero grain.

I just wanna say that I still hope one day this will be re released for at least the purpose of giving it lossless audio. I definitely have to give this movie a compliment for containing probably THE best best Dolby Digital track I have ever heard on SD-DVD. To me it sounds just so crisp. And obviously the HD-DVD is even better in that regard. But on SD-DVD...great job with the sound. I hope one day I can hear it in lossless format.

To bad they dont put average person warning stickers on the cases. You'll just have to research the movies you buy before you buy them. There are a handful of sites that review picture quality so you shouldnt have this problem in the future. In fact... had you done your home work (http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/weweresoldiers.html#Section3) , you'd of known what to expect. The average J6P doesnt know any better though and will buy a movie thinking that all movies are 5 star PQ with zero grain.

Films with lots of grain or artistic look need to be seen on a calibrated set. Not having your settings right on these titles really makes a difference. I watched WWS both before and after doing calibration and he difference was huge. I thought the PQ on this title was very good. It looked like film. Good detail and colour no artifacts.

To bad they dont put average person warning stickers on the cases. You'll just have to research the movies you buy before you buy them. There are a handful of sites that review picture quality so you shouldnt have this problem in the future. In fact... had you done your home work (http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/weweresoldiers.html#Section3) , you'd of known what to expect. The average J6P doesnt know any better though and will buy a movie thinking that all movies are 5 star PQ with zero grain.
I work 2 jobs, work out every day, have a PS3 - that I'm addicted to as far as playing Resistance online almost every day, I have a huge backyard that requires constant attention, and then my girlfriend expects me to spend all my free time with her. I don't have time and am not planning on doing any research on PQ at all - instead - if I'm not pleased with PQ - I'll just bitch about it on these forums. As a matter of fact - I rented Liar Liar a couple of days ago - and while a few minutes of that movie looked pretty good - for the most part PQ was as bad as We were soldiers - grain, grain and then some....

Has anyone had a problem playing this disc in a gen 1 machine ?

I get a "NO HDMI LINK" error on my HD-A1 when I try and play this disc.

It works fine in my 360 addon, and none of the 60 or so other HD DVDs that I own have exhibited this problem.

Anyone have any ideas ?

Cheers,

Andrew.
I get that on my HD-A1 every now and then. If I remember correct - it has something to do with HDMI handshakes or something like that - I'm not very technical, obviously :D All I do is push Input button on my TV remote several times until I see the picture again - hope that helps :)