VIDEO DOWNLOAD SERVICES Master Thread [Text View]

randym431

07-14-07, 12:45 AM

Thanks for this, at least. It is the future. There are many advantages to these services, and some disadvantages as well. I am hooked on them, but there was a learning curve involved. In my opinion, vongo is the best over all with little issues. The drawback is their media is older and not the latest release movies. However, some like "older" films and such. For instance, vongo has many music concerts to pick from. I was surprised to find an old 1970's ELO tour concert that I seen in person way back then. The quality was poor, but due to the age of the concert/film itself. But it brought back memories, especially for ELO fans. The advantage with vongo is the one low monthly fee for unlimited downloads. They have pay-per-view also, but I have never used them. Just the many hundreds included in the one monthly fee.

Naturally, high speed internet is a must to use any of these services.
You can usually begin watching a download within a few minutes after the download begins. So you do not have to wait the 20-min to 2 hours for the whole download to complete.

Vongo has no drm issues. If for some reason it times out , expires or you format your hard drive, you can simply redownload the movie again. Its not a problem.

Now, the others...
Some "others" are rent and purchase or purchase only. The trick is there are many
freebee downloads that you can enjoy. Also, coupons and .99 cent new release promos are offered to registered members, often. Other than vongo, no monthly fee or no member fee is required. You simply register, for free and only pay for what you purchase. Some have an extended service for a fee, but I never get into that.

All have DRM issues. Thats bad. If you reinstall your os for any reason, you're going to lost your DRM license. Even with backing up the downloads (that you should always do with purchases, naturally), if the DRM folder is wiped out you lost the playing rights on that $19 movie you downloaded. Not to worry… you need to call the service cs rep and they will resend the license. I have had a streak of bad luck with my personal computer and had to reinstall xp several times in the past few months. Then I went to vista and again lost the DRM after the upgrade. So I have had to call the different services several times to resend the license, which I will say they resent with out any complaint at all. It was just the hassle in calling them, and taking the time. Many services have online cs chat. That saves time when you need, or have issues. The bad is, they usually are unavailable after midnight to 7am. So if you're a late night movie watcher, and that purchase or rental will not play, you have to wait till their time to fix it.

Most everyone moves up to a new OS, or new computer every few years, so DRM issues will crop up at some point. I've even had the DRM wiped out after installing some software unrelated to download services. Don’t ask me why. And one service cs rep told me to clear my DRM folder, once when I was having an issue with their rental. After I followed their advice, I realized I also wiped out ALL my DRM for ALL my other different services. Had to spend some time the next day on the phone or in chat, to get it all fixed back up. So beware what some CS rep tells you to do.

What I have learned is for purchases, download services are a risk. That is, DRM issues and if you do not back up those purchases and the original is lost., you're out your $19. But... for rentals, download services are GREAT!!! You can download and store the rental for some 30 days or more. But once you begin viewing, the timer starts and you have 24 hours to view as many times as you like, until it times out after the 24 hours.

Once, with a promo from one service for unlimited .99 cent new release downloads, I downloaded some 10 new release films and watched them over the next month one by one. You could never go to your local video store and rent that many for that price. Not to mention not having to drive them back afterwards.

Quality? I use a 50" plasma TV and the quality is fine. No, not DVD but better than VHS. I'd say its equal to satellite TV SD quality (maybe a little better). So quality has NEVER been an issue with me. One service offers HD downloads, for purchase, but I have not downloaded any of them to check it.

Its just very nice when you feel like watching a movie, just going to the computer and seeing whats new, downloading it (especially if its a rental), and viewing it. Then its over. No returns, no running to the store before they close. No hassle.

Another plus with one service, they offer many TV series from the older years. You can get South Park whole season or pick out one show for less than $2 and own it. Also the original "Lost in Space" is available for $2 a episode (purchase & own, not rental). As well as many many other TV series for $2 a shot. And the freebee downloads that some offer is a nice add-on.

For movie “purchase-to-own”, Walmarts has the cheapest. Not only are they a typical $15, as compared to $19 elsewhere, but Walmarts service also offers "portable" versions for portable media players. For the one price of $15, you get BOTH the standard download version, AND the portable as well. That is a big plus in the Walmart slot. And their CS reps are great, if you need those DRM license resent for any reason, no problem.
They do not offer rentals, however...

Movielink has great cs service also, many rental promos for .99 cents, and purchase promos often. As well as many freebee’s.

Of them all, I use vongo, Walmarts and Movielink the most. Other then vongo's $10 monthly unlimited fee, the others require only that you register for free. You only give a card number when you buy something. And you get all those nice promos emailed to you.

Each service will also have you download their movie manager software, to download, manage and view your movies. But you can also just use MS media player to play those downloads, if you want. But the "manager" is what controls the download itself and lets you pause, restart or put off downloading to some other time, like over night if you prefer.

It will be interesting to see where these services go in the future. But for a free service, except for vongo, they are worth the looking at. You can get the freebee’s, or only pay for what you purchase. And yes, they will charge your card only .99 cents if thats all you purchase at that time.

These services are not meant to replace your viewing habits, but just add some nice alternatives. So what can you lose? And what I like, no more friends/family/neighbors borrowing (then losing) your DVD’s.

makeusleep

07-14-07, 01:06 AM

Once, with a promo from one service for unlimited .99 cent new release downloads, I downloaded some 10 new release films and watched them over the next month one by one. You could never go to your local video store and rent that many for that price. Not to mention not having to drive them back afterwards.

Quality? I use a 50" plasma TV and the quality is fine. No, not DVD but better than VHS. I'd say its equal to satellite TV SD quality (maybe a little better). So quality has NEVER been an issue with me. One service offers HD downloads, for purchase, but I have not downloaded any of them to check it.

Is this a joke? You are downloading movies that are NOT DVD quality but better than VHS and paying more. You mention the promo for one service .99 cent new release downloads, all the ones I checked listed for $3.99/rental. You mention you can never go to your local video store and do .99/rental which is false. I will do you one better..you can use Blockbuster Total Access for 14.99/month 2 at a time unlimited rentals with instore free exchanges and watch 15 Blu-Ray or DVD movies a month. That gives you a price of .99 a rental and this is not a promo price, on Blu-Ray or DVD. So to sum it up you are paying 3.99/rental (non promo price) for downloads that are NOT DVD quality but better than VHS while you can be paying .99/rental for HD or DVD rentals. Good luck to you my friend. :) Talk about AVSforum going down the dumps we have a "Master Thread" on downloading quality less than DVD but better than VHS in the Hidef Software Section. Makes you wonder who is the "Master" :rolleyes:

Rob Tomlin

07-14-07, 01:23 AM

Could you please provide direct links to the HD download sections. I can't seem to find them anywhere on the sites. This is the HDTV Software media discussion area correct?

Good point!

Robert Clark

07-14-07, 01:26 AM

Thanks for this thread, Mark.

I'm going to try some of the HD films available on the XBOX 360 that are not available on HD-DVD or Bluray such as Unbreakable, O Brother Where Art Thou, and Hercules (animated). I'll report on the quality here if there's any interest...

Karnis

07-14-07, 08:26 AM

Robert: I watched Braveheart from XBLM a few weeks ago in 720p & it was very enjoyable, the PQ was quite nice....might be a good one for you to check out.

Urza

07-14-07, 10:16 AM

Is this a joke? You are downloading movies that are NOT DVD quality but better than VHS and paying more. You mention the promo for one service .99 cent new release downloads, all the ones I checked listed for $3.99/rental. You mention you can never go to your local video store and do .99/rental which is false. I will do you one better..you can use Blockbuster Total Access for 14.99/month 2 at a time unlimited rentals with instore free exchanges and watch 15 Blu-Ray or DVD movies a month. That gives you a price of .99 a rental and this is not a promo price, on Blu-Ray or DVD. So to sum it up you are paying 3.99/rental (non promo price) for downloads that are NOT DVD quality but better than VHS while you can be paying .99/rental for HD or DVD rentals. Good luck to you my friend. :) Talk about AVSforum going down the dumps we have a "Master Thread" on downloading quality less than DVD but better than VHS in the Hidef Software Section. Makes you wonder who is the "Master" :rolleyes:

You seem to yell alot with red, you ok? :D

markrubin

07-14-07, 11:47 AM

Talk about AVSforum going down the dumps we have a "Master Thread" on downloading quality less than DVD but better than VHS in the Hidef Software Section. Makes you wonder who is the "Master" :rolleyes:

then why post here? Seriously: if you feel this way...stay off this thread

it is plain to many of us that downloading HD video is a powerful force that will influence the format battle

benwaggoner

07-14-07, 11:50 AM

A couple of points about download services and quality

First, current quality is just a point on the curve. The combination of improving compression efficiency and improving data rate will let us push more good looking pixels every year.

Also, download services don't need as many bits as optical-disc based technology to offer the same quality, since we don't need to worry about optical disc limitations for random access. For example, we can use much longer GOPs.

Lastly, we don't need to worry about a fixed hardware spec that much. With XBLM, we've been able to push improvements to the player on the Xbox 360, and have been able to take advantages of those improvements to improve quality, user experience, etcetera. And because we aren't locked into a hardware spec, we can use highly effiicent codecs like WMA Pro that aren't included in the hardware specs, saving a lot of bits (WMA Pro is roughly 2x as efficient as AC-3, with increasing advantage at lower bitrates).

The next big step for download services is to incorporate improved interactivity and metadata like HD DVD has. Have you see the demo from MIX of the Netflix streaming service with Silverlight?

desmond212

07-14-07, 11:53 AM

i have three questions about XBL:
a) what's the quality?
b) does it require platinum membership?
c) how long to download?

Robert Clark

07-14-07, 11:54 AM

Robert: I watched Braveheart from XBLM a few weeks ago in 720p & it was very enjoyable, the PQ was quite nice....might be a good one for you to check out.

Thanks Karnis, :)

I'll definitely check it out. I've watched several of the 720p trailers on the XBLM over my NEC 6PG+ and they look quite nice...

jagouar

07-14-07, 12:02 PM

i have three questions about XBL:
a) what's the quality?
b) does it require platinum membership?
c) how long to download?

quality is 720p content that looks quite good for 720p. Comparing movies on hd-dvd and live downloads it gets really close to hd-dvd quality but not all the way there (but its to be expected)

you can download movies w/o paying for gold. the only thing xbox live gold gets you is playing games online.

i have a 4mbit cable connection and i downloaded deja vu last night. It took me 1 hr and 20 mins to buffer enough to be able to play the movie. so just over an hour from the time i choose to rent the movie it was ready to play. this time will vary if you have slower/faster internet connection.

desmond212

07-14-07, 12:04 PM

A couple of points about download services and quality

First, current quality is just a point on the curve. The combination of improving compression efficiency and improving data rate will let us push more good looking pixels every year.

Also, download services don't need as many bits as optical-disc based technology to offer the same quality, since we don't need to worry about optical disc limitations for random access. For example, we can use much longer GOPs.

Lastly, we don't need to worry about a fixed hardware spec that much. With XBLM, we've been able to push improvements to the player on the Xbox 360, and have been able to take advantages of those improvements to improve quality, user experience, etcetera. And because we aren't locked into a hardware spec, we can use highly effiicent codecs like WMA Pro that aren't included in the hardware specs, saving a lot of bits (WMA Pro is roughly 2x as efficient as AC-3, with increasing advantage at lower bitrates).

The next big step for download services is to incorporate improved interactivity and metadata like HD DVD has. Have you see the demo from MIX of the Netflix streaming service with Silverlight?

do you ever expect to offer this via pc?

desmond212

07-14-07, 12:12 PM

only dowload/streaming i've used for movies is cable vod and joost. neither is hd.

Slim GoodBooty

07-14-07, 12:21 PM

I will be interested to see what the general consensus is.

I have ZERO interest myself. I have Netflix and they offer this service as well.
My thoughts are that this has nothing to do with HDDVD and BD.

chad_cincy

07-14-07, 12:34 PM

I've used Xbox Live Media service for a few movies that I wanted to see but not bad enough to buy. I was surprised at the quality. It is rather good. I think of it more as an alternative to Hollywood Video or Blockbuster than HD DVD or BD.

Robert Clark

07-14-07, 03:10 PM

I will be interested to see what the general consensus is.

I have ZERO interest myself. I have Netflix and they offer this service as well.

Not in HD that I can see...

chad_cincy

07-14-07, 04:47 PM

BTW, I just happen to notice that Austin Powers I is available for free right now on Live (SD only). Just thought I'd mention it for those wanting to try it.

mpjohnst

07-14-07, 05:07 PM

Well, I would hope that we get one successful hi-def DVD format before video downloads kill both Blu-ray and HD-DVD. However, after that I'm holding out for they following (from a different thread in the dual forum):
With the promise of digital HD downloads, the first thing everyone complains about is speed. I don't really see why though... Netflix, with an approximate 3 day turn around for me is plenty fast, especially when I have 3 movie options at a time. As long as digital downloads arrive faster than 3 days for my current 480p content, it will be an improvement. Chalk me up as someone who doesn't care about real time HD streaming the second I press play. Also, as someone who owns like 500+ DVDs, for all but a few select movies, I've lost my past rabid desire to own my content. Netflix now works great for 95% of my content needs. Lately, I've only bothered buying foreign DVDs which Netflix doesn't carry.

My dream download service...

A Netflix P2P set-top box
Free box with 6 month commitment
$20/month rental fee for 5 movies out at a time ($30/month for 10)
Only needs HDD space for 5-10 movies
Automatically downloads the top 5-10 movies in your queue
P2P with other peoples boxes for faster downloads
---Could even give you a download time estimate, with popular movies downloading faster
Box gives you the option to delete after you've watched
Can manage your box content/queue from your tv
1080p/720p/480p options to meet the full spectrum of speed/quality folks needs
Movie size/language/subtitle default preferences set up once (only downloads what you need)
---Option to modify individual downloads for picky folks
Option to download special features in place of 1 movie on your box

There is absolutely NOTHING, from a technical standpoint, stopping this from happening today. If built en mass, they would probably only cost $100-150 to manufacture. If I had the above box, I would be a happy man... and only get happier as faster internet speeds/cheaper storage progressively allow me to receive a larger local list more quickly. And eventually, when speeds are fast enough, the same box could handle direct streams (and probably 480p streams from day one).
-Matt

EDITED: To point out that the 5/10 movie limit is what would exist on the box, you could still download and watch as many movies per month as you could physically sit through assuming you had the bandwidth.

desmond212

07-14-07, 05:16 PM

quality is 720p content that looks quite good for 720p. Comparing movies on hd-dvd and live downloads it gets really close to hd-dvd quality but not all the way there (but its to be expected)

you can download movies w/o paying for gold. the only thing xbox live gold gets you is playing games online.

i have a 4mbit cable connection and i downloaded deja vu last night. It took me 1 hr and 20 mins to buffer enough to be able to play the movie. so just over an hour from the time i choose to rent the movie it was ready to play. this time will vary if you have slower/faster internet connection.

thanks. can you play games while downloading?

Karnis

07-14-07, 06:13 PM

Yep, it downloads in the background....

jagouar

07-14-07, 06:27 PM

BTW, I just happen to notice that Austin Powers I is available for free right now on Live (SD only). Just thought I'd mention it for those wanting to try it.

and an fyi... that movie looks absolutely horrible compared to the hd stuff (even pretty bad for their sd content)

i was kinda disappointed when they announced a free movie this was is and not one of their family friendly hd flicks. they really could have used it to promote their hd movies (ie given mcdonalds the same price for a sd and hd movie). sure it would have cost more for bw but the advertising would have been huge imo.

Assayer

07-14-07, 06:34 PM

I just started playing with Microsoft's XBL downloads last night, and I was pleasantly surprised. I can see how this kind of service could really be a threat to the disk-based formats once it takes off. The limits of broadband market penetration in the US being what they are, I don't see disk based media going away in the next two decades, but as Verizon and the major cable operators ramp up services of their own, I can see this significantly fragmenting the home entertainment market.

HPforMe

07-14-07, 07:02 PM

I've used XBLM a couple of times with great success...a couple of hi def movies & classic cartoons. Painless & enjoyable. I'm an HD DVD & Blu ray owner (not a hi def snob) & this fills the gap nicely for things I want to watch without purchase.

Minimum buffer time for movies is one hour. Unacceptable. Until our dsl/broadband connections multiply in speed by a factor of 50 and until they are wide enough to do 1080p and compressed lossless audio at a sustained bit rate the whole thing is a poor mans root to hi-def - wonderful for the studios though since it's the best way to protect their content. God forbid we go down the path of losing our hi-def disk based formats in favor of this crap. Come back when the whole fiber-optic infrastructure and delivery system allows near instantaneous access with the same quality we can get on disk based media.

Karnis

07-15-07, 10:52 AM

Assayer

07-15-07, 11:21 AM

Minimum buffer time for movies is one hour. Unacceptable. Until our dsl/broadband connections multiply in speed by a factor of 50 and until they are wide enough to do 1080p and compressed lossless audio at a sustained bit rate the whole thing is a poor mans root to hi-def - wonderful for the studios though since it's the best way to protect their content. God forbid we go down the path of losing our hi-def disk based formats in favor of this crap. Come back when the whole fiber-optic infrastructure and delivery system allows near instantaneous access with the same quality we can get on disk based media.

I can't speak for movie download times yet, but I experienced a minimum buffer time of less than 5 minutes while downloading the 45 minute-long HD Aquaman pilot from XBL over FIOS last night. I agree that an hour-plus wait is a non-starter for most prospective users, but five minutes sure beats a trip to the local video store. It is basically the time it takes to take a quick restroom break and microwave a bag of popcorn. Obviously most households don't have this kind of bandwidth yet, but I could see it going mainstream in urban areas over the next five years as the cable companies and telecoms continue to upgrade their infrastructure. That said, I agree that it would be tragic if our HD optical media were to dry up as a result of this, but I really don't see that happening.

Karnis

07-15-07, 11:23 AM

Off topic but how was that Aquaman show? Was it any good?

Assayer

07-15-07, 11:45 AM

Off topic but how was that Aquaman show? Was it any good?

My wife and I enjoyed it, and were somewhat disappointed when we realized it was actually a pilot intended for the 2006-2007 season that was never picked up. Most likely it was lost in the shuffle as WB and UPN combined into the CW. When I downloaded it, I saw the 2007 copyright and thought it was a preview of a Fall show with the intent of build up some preseason buzz, but alas I was mistaken. The actors were all fairly charismatic and they laid enough subplot threads to keep it interesting. I believe it would have gone over well with the Smallville viewership although it looks like it would have been one of their more expensive shows due to the special effects and coastal Florida setting.

benwaggoner

07-15-07, 01:07 PM

do you ever expect to offer this via pc?
I just make the video look good :).

benwaggoner

07-15-07, 01:10 PM

i have a 4mbit cable connection and i downloaded deja vu last night. It took me 1 hr and 20 mins to buffer enough to be able to play the movie. so just over an hour from the time i choose to rent the movie it was ready to play. this time will vary if you have slower/faster internet connection.
The rule of thumb for buffering time is:

buffer time = ( ( content duration / transfer rate) -1 ) * duration

So, as long as your sustained transfer rate is north of 6.5 Mbps, you should be able to start playing relatively immediately. Below that, the buffer time will be proportional to content length, and can vary widely with transfer rate. So a 5 Mbps connection might only be 20 minutes, but a 512 Kbps DSL could be 20 hours.

Another way of reading the above is that you can start playing when the amount of time remaining in the download is less than the duration of the title.

Ilka

07-15-07, 01:43 PM

Buffer time is a non factor for me. I plan ahead. If I see something I want to watch I'll download it & I have 2 weeks to push play. Again, I use it as an alternative to discs....stuff I want to watch/rent but not own. As a rental service I find it quite convenient. If I like something enough I'll buy the HD DVD or Blu ray disc, I own both.

What are the typical DRM restrictions on these downloaded titles? You allude to a 2-week window for viewing ... is that typical? Additionally, can you play it multiple times? If you watch something and decide that you'd like to own it, can you "upgrade" your rental in some way such that you can extend the viewing period and/or burn it? TIA

Karnis

07-15-07, 02:37 PM

So far it seems to be divided into two camps....rent & own. Owner stuff you have no playback restrictions. Rental stuff, have you 2 weeks to push play, & once you push play you have a 48 hour window to watch it before it times out. Its nice on XBLM for the owned stuff in that it will remember that you downloaded it so if you delete it for whatever reason, lets say to make room for a movie, you can go back & d/l it again. Did that with a couple of Star Trek: TOS episodes. So far, no method for burning to DVD for the owner stuff, which would be nice.

benwaggoner

07-15-07, 03:00 PM

Karnis

07-15-07, 04:15 PM

Ben:
I was thinking along the lines of off-console storage for later use on the console itself, as opposed to DVD player compatible. Sorry for not being clear about my thought process.

benwaggoner

07-15-07, 04:31 PM

Ben:
I was thinking along the lines of off-console storage for later use on the console itself, as opposed to DVD player compatible. Sorry for not being clear about my thought process.
Ah, gotcha. In the particular case of XBLM, I don't know how useful that would really be - the movies are rental only, and you can redownload the TV shows whenever you want. Plus there's the 120 GB drive available.

Karnis

07-15-07, 05:03 PM

Yeah, movies wouldnt be what I would store anyway as they are rentals, but stuff that doesnt expire, like Star Trek TOS & classic cartoons, now you're talking. And until they drop the price of that 120 GB HD :eek: ..... ;)
I will say that I consider the XBLM the leader in downloading/delivering HD movies to your HDTV, something I never considered when I bought the console, and I actually use it more for that then games these days. Kudos to MS in that regard & congrats for getting even more compelling programming with the addition of Disney to your lineup.

jagouar

07-15-07, 05:19 PM

The rule of thumb for buffering time is:

buffer time = ( ( content duration / transfer rate) -1 ) * duration

So, as long as your sustained transfer rate is north of 6.5 Mbps, you should be able to start playing relatively immediately. Below that, the buffer time will be proportional to content length, and can vary widely with transfer rate. So a 5 Mbps connection might only be 20 minutes, but a 512 Kbps DSL could be 20 hours.

Another way of reading the above is that you can start playing when the amount of time remaining in the download is less than the duration of the title.

in theory thats a good way to think about it but if live servers are getting overloaded that goes out the window. plus real world times are always better imo because it factors unforseen latency issues and whatnot.

I still think 1hr for a HD movie is pretty damn good and when our cable provider upgrades it will be pretty much instantaneous.

Yeah, movies wouldnt be what I would store anyway as they are rentals, but stuff that doesnt expire, like Star Trek TOS & classic cartoons, now you're talking. And until they drop the price of that 120 GB HD :eek: ..... ;)
I will say that I consider the XBLM the leader in downloading/delivering HD movies to your HDTV, something I never considered when I bought the console, and I actually use it more for that then games these days. Kudos to MS in that regard & congrats for getting even more compelling programming with the addition of Disney to your lineup.

I also think thats a huge flaw in that content doesnt stay online.... even if ms keeps to the vod model content should stay online. That said I still want a netflix style option where I can pay a monthly fee and rent "x" movies at a time.

And Im also in the same boat in that I didnt get the 360 for the movies but as good as it is a few little additions/changes and it could be awesome..... it really is very very close. But I really do hate that ms doesnt even really mention the movie service much when talking about the 360 in general. I really would like to see this feature marketed more.

Minimum buffer time for movies is one hour. Unacceptable. Until our dsl/broadband connections multiply in speed by a factor of 50 and until they are wide enough to do 1080p and compressed lossless audio at a sustained bit rate the whole thing is a poor mans root to hi-def - wonderful for the studios though since it's the best way to protect their content. God forbid we go down the path of losing our hi-def disk based formats in favor of this crap. Come back when the whole fiber-optic infrastructure and delivery system allows near instantaneous access with the same quality we can get on disk based media.

Ive see similar sentiments posted in these threads.... one thing I have to wonder is how did you (and the others) ever live with dvd for 10 yrs? Surely you must have gouged your eyes out since it wasnt 1080p and only 480. I still think the 720p live downloads are more than good enough to pass for watching most movies (and really compares better to hd-dvd/bluray than it should). Of couse Im sure most of the people who doubt what the 720p downloads can do have never even tried the service and are just doubting it based on specs.

benwaggoner

07-15-07, 05:31 PM

in theory thats a good way to think about it but if live servers are getting overloaded that goes out the window. plus real world times are always better imo because it factors unforseen latency issues and whatnot.
If the Live servers are getting overloaded, we've got bigger problems than that :)!

jagouar

07-15-07, 05:34 PM

well they were pretty overloaded this past week with all of the new content posted for the bringing it home campaign... ;)

but its not just ms servers... lots of things can get in they way of a good connection to them.

markrubin

07-16-07, 12:19 PM

shameless bump ;)

slimm

07-16-07, 02:13 PM

shameless bump ;)

We forgive you :D

CraigW

07-16-07, 02:33 PM

A couple of points about download services and quality

First, current quality is just a point on the curve. The combination of improving compression efficiency and improving data rate will let us push more good looking pixels every year.

SD Satellite providers still can't provide a quality SD signal compared to the optical DVD format this far into the technology.

Also, download services don't need as many bits as optical-disc based technology to offer the same quality, since we don't need to worry about optical disc limitations for random access. For example, we can use much longer GOPs.

If anybody believes this I've got a bridge for sale in Brooklyn. Even with HD DVD, optical disc has no limitations compared to downloading. Downloading is about making money with providing no physical product. BW is limited on the internet even with HS connections. Any HD download service is going to adopt the iTunes model, (high compression, less information to send).

Lastly, we don't need to worry about a fixed hardware spec that much. With XBLM, we've been able to push improvements to the player on the Xbox 360, and have been able to take advantages of those improvements to improve quality, user experience, etcetera. And because we aren't locked into a hardware spec, we can use highly effiicent codecs like WMA Pro that aren't included in the hardware specs, saving a lot of bits (WMA Pro is roughly 2x as efficient as AC-3, with increasing advantage at lower bitrates).

The next big step for download services is to incorporate improved interactivity and metadata like HD DVD has. Have you see the demo from MIX of the Netflix streaming service with Silverlight?

I don't care!!! HD Downloads will never be capable of the quality of what can be held on an optical disc. Funny a MS insider coming here and now trying to sell us on HD downloads? I smell a rat.....

Again, MS (and all the other companies behind this) can go fly a kite.

Did you see the news lately? The iTunes model has not saved the Music industry and I think these companies are overestimating how much consumers are will to pay for HD downloads.

Jiffylush

07-16-07, 02:44 PM

SD Satellite providers still can't provide a quality SD signal compared to the optical DVD format this far into the technology.

If anybody believes this I've got a bridge for sale in Brooklyn. Even with HD DVD, optical disc has no limitations compared to downloading. Downloading is about making money with providing no physical product. BW is limited on the internet even with HS connections. Any HD download service is going to adopt the iTunes model, (high compression, less information to send).

I don't care!!! HD Downloads will never be capable of the quality of what can be held on an optical disc. Funny a MS insider coming here and now trying to sell us on HD downloads? I smell a rat.....

Again, MS (and all the other companies behind this) can go fly a kite.

Did you see the news lately? The iTunes model has not saved the Music industry and I think these companies are overestimating how much consumers are will to pay for HD downloads.

It makes perfect sense for Ben to be here discussing this, afaik he works on encoding the actual movies that people are downloading. Is there anyone out there more qualified to talk about that service?

BrynRhys

07-16-07, 02:56 PM

SD Satellite providers still can't provide a quality SD signal compared to the optical DVD format this far into the technology.

What about fibre? Cable? ADSL+? Can they?

BW is limited on the internet even with HS connections.
What is the limit? Is that limit static? If it's changing, how much is it growing YOY?

HD Downloads will never be capable of the quality of what can be held on an optical disc.
Never? Never, meaning 10 years?

It sure looks like fibre is getting there on a point-to-point basis. I don't know what JP, FI, SE, KR have done to maximize throughput on the backbone, but end-user access to 100Mbps is here now.

jagouar

07-16-07, 03:01 PM

It makes perfect sense for Ben to be here discussing this, afaik he works on encoding the actual movies that people are downloading. Is there anyone out there more qualified to talk about that service?

Agreed.... I for one like his posts here. MS has always been very quiet on the technical specs of their service and its good to see some stuff get out.

benwaggoner

07-16-07, 03:39 PM

SD Satellite providers still can't provide a quality SD signal compared to the optical DVD format this far into the technology.
Cable/sat has different economic imperatives than IP downloads which lead to this. They basically get paid by the number of channels they provide. Since they have a fixed bandwidth shared between multiple users, each new channel takes away bandwidth from others. So, basically they push bandwidth down to the point to just enough that users don't cancel the service, and when they get improvements in compression efficiency, they use those to add channels instead of improving quality.

With IP download, each customer has their own bandwidth, and they bring their own. So with a download service, it's possible to just change a customer more if they want to deliver more bandwidth. Since you can charge more for a premium service, there's a strong economic motivation to deliver a better experience.

If anybody believes this I've got a bridge for sale in Brooklyn. Even with HD DVD, optical disc has no limitations compared to downloading. Downloading is about making money with providing no physical product. BW is limited on the internet even with HS connections. Any HD download service is going to adopt the iTunes model, (high compression, less information to send).
Optical discs formats get updated every decade or so at best. With a device-based download service, you can update software more often to add new features, so over time HD discs can wind up being MORE contrained than download services.

And there's no magic "maximum" data rate for downloads - the Xbox can certaily decode a full 1080p at HD DVD quality and bandwidth. What if there was a download service which was downloading a HD DVD disc image? That would be a download experience exactly as good as a disc experience.

Really, over time download and disc publishing should converge on the same set of tools, so it's really up to a consumer how they want to get the experience, with diminising differences in terms of quality or (the bigger difference today) interactivity.

markrubin

07-16-07, 03:49 PM

sticky

I know some members object to this topic here for various reasons: so be it...

Downloadable content, this includes HD video, is a powerful delivery service that will gain momentum: like it or not, it has an influence in this format battle:

many compression codecs ; copy protection methods et al are being developed and tested not only for the HD optical disc, but for other delivery systems as well

With this in mind, I think we should learn everything about this subject: its strengths and weaknesses

If you object strongly to this thread, just use the unsubscribe button

no bias or agenda here: just an observation on my part: let's carry on a civil discussion and stick to technical issues

Thank you

jagouar

07-16-07, 04:50 PM

benwaggoner, was wondering something. how involved are you exactly with the live marketplace? ive always had a couple of little quirks id like to see addressed and ive never found anybody on the ms team that is in any way related to the video service (and the gaming/xbox teams really dont care about the movie part)

benwaggoner

07-16-07, 05:02 PM

jagouar

07-16-07, 05:32 PM

Well Ill post here then....

1. I really would like to see a audio tag like there is for the HD and start tagging all content for both video and sound. (and more indepth video tags)

Namely because some of the HD content is only in 2.0 stereo (trailers mainly that ive noticed but sou). But some of the SD movies are only in 2.0 and you dont know that going in.

2. rework xbox.com or create a new website dedicated to the movies where you can get real info on each movie (and not just a cover picture). Also when the new movies are announced each week have one place you can go for that info. Some weeks it gets posted on majornelson, sometimes the gamerscore blog and sometimes xbox forums. Would like to see a "whats new this week" on xbox.com for the video marketplace.

I know there is an rss feed but it really isnt very good. Also a pretty regular timetable for announcing the list would be nice. Say for instance on tuesday the list comes out each week (for what will be released that week). Would help knowing when the list was to be released so I could be looking for it vs having to check those various sites everyday.

3. Re organize the media section once you have downloaded the movies. We are starting to see it done with the marketplace in that the graphical only look of the tv shows network page. Would be nice to see that same type of thing applied to the media blade.

4. this one is pretty minor but i would like to have a way to make the trailers bigger (or even full screen). the default window is way to small to actually be able to see the trailer. (even separating trailers and actual movies would be nice... maybe via the twist navigation). I have a ton of trailers on my 360 so its kinda a pain to find my movies sometimes.

5. long term idea here but related to the xbox.com makeover add an option to be able to rent the movie from xbox.com and have it download to your 360 while you are away from the console (work, vacation, etc). with the low power mode im sure things like this are being considered since it would be pretty easy to have the 360 do something wii like where it logs on periodically to check for updates.

CraigW

07-16-07, 06:26 PM

Cable/sat has different economic imperatives than IP downloads which lead to this. They basically get paid by the number of channels they provide. Since they have a fixed bandwidth shared between multiple users, each new channel takes away bandwidth from others. So, basically they push bandwidth down to the point to just enough that users don't cancel the service, and when they get improvements in compression efficiency, they use those to add channels instead of improving quality.

With IP download, each customer has their own bandwidth, and they bring their own. So with a download service, it's possible to just change a customer more if they want to deliver more bandwidth. Since you can charge more for a premium service, there's a strong economic motivation to deliver a better experience.

Optical discs formats get updated every decade or so at best. With a device-based download service, you can update software more often to add new features, so over time HD discs can wind up being MORE contrained than download services.

And there's no magic "maximum" data rate for downloads - the Xbox can certaily decode a full 1080p at HD DVD quality and bandwidth. What if there was a download service which was downloading a HD DVD disc image? That would be a download experience exactly as good as a disc experience.

Really, over time download and disc publishing should converge on the same set of tools, so it's really up to a consumer how they want to get the experience, with diminising differences in terms of quality or (the bigger difference today) interactivity.

If experience in the real world has taught me anything it is that the lowest common denominator usually rules. So HD downloads are going to be low-bit rate lossy audio encodes and add DRM'd more extensively than BD+. So instead of giving the best experience out of the gate you are going to tier quality levels and charge for them?

Again, I just find it funny that the company that is pushing the losing format, HD DVD, to create market confusion in now here to tell us how great HD downloads will be. Coincidence? You be the judge...

The thing I am getting so sick of on this forum is the amount of MS chatter that is occurring. It seems like very few are challenging anything that comes from them since they view MS as their savior in the format war. Format war aside here, MS and Sony do not necessarily have the consumers' best interest in mind. They are corporations that are in the business of making money.

I think MS did a very good job with its VC1 codec, but at the same time I have seen equally good AVC encodes. A bad VC1 encode is the master, a bad AVC encode is the codec. Riiiiight....

Until we get to the point where an HD download contains the same raw video stream as BD or HD DVD meaning maximized video and audio bitrates, I really don't want it. Not to mention hard drive storage space.... (they will probably auto delete anyways)

All this talk of features... Yes there is a very vocal minority that wants value added content, but on whole if you asked most people if they watch special features on their DVD collection, the answer would be surprisingly small.

benwaggoner

07-16-07, 07:13 PM

If experience in the real world has taught me anything it is that the lowest common denominator usually rules. So HD downloads are going to be low-bit rate lossy audio encodes and add DRM'd more extensively than BD+. So instead of giving the best experience out of the gate you are going to tier quality levels and charge for them?
It's a tier because download times vary so widely, which may or may not be worth it for a particular customer. Plus delivering more bits costs more, so it's useful to scale. If what you're worried about is lowest common denominator, then you exactly want tiers as an alternative.

Until we get to the point where an HD download contains the same raw video stream as BD or HD DVD meaning maximized video and audio bitrates, I really don't want it. Not to mention hard drive storage space.... (they will probably auto delete anyways)
Again, shop by the sight and sound, not the spec. We can do more with fewer bits with download since we don't need to worry about optical disc physical constraints.

Butler5

07-16-07, 10:25 PM

benwaggoner

07-16-07, 10:34 PM

Ben........I wanted to ask why MS never approached the idea of giving users the option of purchasing the movies, or having that option along with renting. There are a good bit of the HD movies that have been on XBL, that I wish I could purchase and now with Disney, there will be more. I'm just curious as to why MS couldn't do what Apple does and sell the actual movie. Is this ever a possibility or will it always be rental only?
Sheesh, no idea. It's probably a contractual thing from the studios. I'm sure something like that would come available at a future date.

For those who want to buy a title, HD DVD is an excellent choice :).

hellokeith

07-17-07, 12:19 AM

Wasn't there a movie subscription service around in the last few years that didn't succeed? I forget the name, but basically it downloaded stuff via antenna and stored it in the self-contained set top box, which was hooked into your AVR or TV.

I want a service which doesn't require me to spend a week troubleshooting it. Read the cablecard review nightmare? The cable co and Microsoft working together couldn't figure out the problem and basically gave up. So don't expect the average d-i-y-s junkie to be able to solve any and every technical problem.

Stanger89 mentioned this before, but I'd like to bring it up again. I want a service that just works. Where it downloads the movies from is it's problem. OTA HD seems like it would be a great transport for this kind of service. I got 85% signal quality from an analog antenna in my closet hooked up to my Hauppaugge 1600. It was too stuttery to watch real time, but in 3-4 hours surely could have downloaded an HD movie, if some service provider would utilize that bandwidth. Heck, package it up with all kinds of error correction and DRM, I don't care, so long as it works and is good HD quality.

On a related topic, where is Microsoft IPTV? I've heard them talk about it for ages, but I've yet to see anything in this (major) metropolitan area where I live.

benwaggoner

07-17-07, 01:14 AM

Stanger89 mentioned this before, but I'd like to bring it up again. I want a service that just works. Where it downloads the movies from is it's problem. OTA HD seems like it would be a great transport for this kind of service. I got 85% signal quality from an analog antenna in my closet hooked up to my Hauppaugge 1600. It was too stuttery to watch real time, but in 3-4 hours surely could have downloaded an HD movie, if some service provider would utilize that bandwidth. Heck, package it up with all kinds of error correction and DRM, I don't care, so long as it works and is good HD quality.
I hope you can then understand why we find the Xbox 360 a compelling platform to launch a service on, then :). We make the platform, and the user brings their own bandwidth. Very bulletproof.

On a related topic, where is Microsoft IPTV? I've heard them talk about it for ages, but I've yet to see anything in this (major) metropolitan area where I live.
It's been renamed "Mediaroom":

http://www.microsoft.com/tv/default.mspx

The platform is being widely deployed around the world. The biggest customer currently deploying the system in the USA is AT&T. Globally, the launched services include:

BT in the UK
Club Internet in France
T-Mobile in Hungary
Portugal Telecom
Slovak Telecom
Swisscom
DTC in Denmark
YacomTV in Spain

A bunch of other companies around the world are also doing trials.

orogogus

07-17-07, 04:43 PM

I'm looking forward to when I can subscribe to something with a library like Live (or even greater) on a subscription/tiered basis. I'll kick COMCAST to the curb so fast their heads will spin. Bring on the IPTV model where I get to choose what and how I want to watch.

My caveats are a 'download to own/transcribe' (with DRM is fine with me as long as it doesn't get in the way of moving stuff around) and it needs to be competitively priced with cable. Say something south of $80/mo.

I do understand the folks that like to own things, and I advocate for fair use rights, so I can understand why some people will keep collecting optical disks. I can see myself continuing to do that on a limited basis. Sometimes it is still the best option (like when you are travelling or offline). But people who don't think that downloads will be the next big thing are fooling themselves or betting on the wrong horse (that software won't trump hardware).

benwaggoner

07-19-07, 06:22 PM

I've seen a lot of doubt about what download services can provide quality wise. I've had a couple examples from my blog of challenging content. One 2 Mbps, the other 10 Mbps.

2 Mbps: http://on10.net/Blogs/benwagg/elephants-dream-720p--2-mbps/

10 Mbps: http://on10.net/Blogs/benwagg/elephants-dream-sample/

Note that both are straight-up software encodes using our year-old public release. The new VC-1 SDKs that we'll be releasing to software companies soon have substantial improvements yet beyond what you see in the above.

WayneL

07-19-07, 07:43 PM

IMO the future of MMC, downloads, home servers and HDM disks converge, and we benefit from it all. I don't think BD+ is on that path.

Dahlsim

07-19-07, 07:45 PM

Sheesh, no idea. It's probably a contractual thing from the studios. I'm sure something like that would come available at a future date.

For those who want to buy a title, HD DVD is an excellent choice :).

This seems like a big hole in the current offering, ie no option to own (except for television shows). Any discussions about working with a retailer (online or B&M) offering a discount applying the rental toward an hd dvd if a user wanted to buy it after the rental? You seem to be working with Amazon already and they would certainly be able to implement promotion codes.

Also, any chance of getting a option to filter the Marketplace lists to show only the HD titles?

Ilka

07-19-07, 08:08 PM

IMO the future of MMC, downloads, home servers and HDM disks converge, and we benefit from it all. I don't think BD+ is on that path.

Why do you say that? BD+ is an extra layer of authentication. I don't believe that BD+ would prevent (no more than AACS does, for example) managed copy/home-servers, etc. but am not an expert in this area ... could you provide a link confirming this limitation of BD+?

WayneL

07-19-07, 08:21 PM

It looks like BD+ is a lock to ensure the disk is an original. There's no MMC there. Disclosure: I have no expertise in this area, and my views may be wrong.

Ilka

07-19-07, 08:30 PM

It looks like BD+ is a lock to ensure the disk is an original. There's no MMC there. Disclosure: I have no expertise in this area, and my views may be wrong.

Fair point. Since you conjectured, might I suggest you offer this question to the insider's thread? I'd be interested in an expert opinion also.

benwaggoner

07-19-07, 09:20 PM

This seems like a big hole in the current offering, ie no option to own (except for television shows). Any discussions about working with a retailer (online or B&M) offering a discount applying the rental toward an hd dvd if a user wanted to buy it after the rental? You seem to be working with Amazon already and they would certainly be able to implement promotion codes.

Also, any chance of getting a option to filter the Marketplace lists to show only the HD titles?
I'm just a technology nerd here - I don't have much more insight into the business decisions here than you do. Those all seem like great ideas, and there certainly aren't any technical barriers to doing so.

My job is to make the technology just work so that the business guys can innovate around business models.

Dahlsim

07-19-07, 09:41 PM

I'm just a technology nerd here - I don't have much more insight into the business decisions here than you do. Those all seem like great ideas, and there certainly aren't any technical barriers to doing so.

My job is to make the technology just work so that the business guys can innovate around business models.

Understood. Perhaps you could invite someone from the Xbox team involved more directly with Marketplace to register here as an insider.

This forum seems a like a great place to get feedback from a related demographic for possible updates to the download service. Just get Major Nelson over here :)

Robert Clark

07-20-07, 07:54 PM

benwaggoner

07-20-07, 11:08 PM

I watched "Unbreakable" last night, my first HD video download. Disney has not put it out on BD (like many of their offerings on XBLM) so it's XBLM, or the awful DVD.
PQ, Good. Unbreakable is a remarkably dark film, so it's not the best choice to tout PQ, but it had fine detail, much better than the DVD, and thankfully, was free of the horrible EE that plagues the DVD. Colors in Unbreakable are quite muted, with blues predominating (deliberately to highlight certain characters such as the worker in the orange jumpsuit). The opening credits were formatted to fill the frame, but once the movie started the film was 2.35:1. Sound was the only disappointing feature for me, my Denon lit up stereo only, and I couldn't find any audio options to change on the Xbox that might provide a better sound experience.
Download seemed to take about 2-3 hours over cable modem, but I didn't actually time it.
All in all, I enjoyed Unbreakable, and will download an HD movie again, next time with a more eye-candy release. :)
Unbreakable is a fun film. Those dark shadows are pretty hard to encode well - I'm glad to hear it turned out fine.

As for your audio problem, you're connected via TOSLink? Do you have output set to Dolby or WMA passthrough? You should have gotten a nice 640 Kbps 5.1 AC-3 mix out of it. Do you get 5.1 audio out of games on the system (XBLM uses the game settings for audio, not the HD DVD settings). Feel free to PM if you'd like a little diagnostic help.

Robert Clark

07-21-07, 12:26 AM

Unbreakable is a fun film. Those dark shadows are pretty hard to encode well - I'm glad to hear it turned out fine.

As for your audio problem, you're connected via TOSLink? Do you have output set to Dolby or WMA passthrough? You should have gotten a nice 640 Kbps 5.1 AC-3 mix out of it. Do you get 5.1 audio out of games on the system (XBLM uses the game settings for audio, not the HD DVD settings). Feel free to PM if you'd like a little diagnostic help.

Hey thanks for that, I actually assumed it used the same audio settings as HD-DVD. I'll check it out on O Brother Where Art Thou... :)

orogogus

07-21-07, 03:15 AM

This seems like a big hole in the current offering, ie no option to own (except for television shows). Any discussions about working with a retailer (online or B&M) offering a discount applying the rental toward an hd dvd if a user wanted to buy it after the rental? You seem to be working with Amazon already and they would certainly be able to implement promotion codes.

Also, any chance of getting a option to filter the Marketplace lists to show only the HD titles?

Agreed on both points. If we could download to own I might actually see value in the 120gb 360 drive/elite SKU...

benwaggoner

07-21-07, 12:56 PM

Hey thanks for that, I actually assumed it used the same audio settings as HD-DVD. I'll check it out on O Brother Where Art Thou... :)
Yeah, they're entirely different groups of settings. You can use DTS for HD DVD for example, but not for normal Xbox output. Let me know how it goes.

diogen

07-22-07, 04:24 PM

...I just find it funny that the company that is pushing the losing format, HD DVD, to create market confusion in now here to tell us how great HD downloads will be.
...The thing I am getting so sick of on this forum is the amount of MS chatter that is occurring. It seems like very few are challenging anything that comes from them...
...I don't care!!! HD Downloads will never be capable of the quality of what can be held on an optical disc. Funny a MS insider coming here and now trying to sell us on HD downloads? I smell a rat.....
...Again, MS (and all the other companies behind this) can go fly a kite.Just a quick question: is that "Taking the high road" signature of yours the goal you are aiming at?
I hate to tell you, but the Moon is probably closer...

Diogen.

randym431

07-26-07, 02:33 AM

I did not intend for this thread or section to be anyway involved with HDdvd or blueray or any other type of HD content. Its suggestion was to simply create discussion on video download services. Why it is in the HD content section is beyond me.

ps. I found a way around the dreaded DRM issue (well almost). MediaPC!
I just put my first mediapc together, dedicated to media displayed on the home TV.
Its was all the "other" things I did with my personal computer that was putting my DRM at risk. Except for acts of nature (like hard drive failure or motherboard failure), the "mediapc" will only be use for media to tv. Nothing else. DRM should be safe this way.

rgathright

07-27-07, 02:31 PM

Are any of these services actually able to download HD movies?

Zassk

07-27-07, 02:55 PM

Yes, HD (720p) is the key thing differentiating Xbox Live Video Marketplace from the rest.

I'm having trouble finding a current listing of its movies (HD/SD) online.

jagouar

07-27-07, 03:24 PM

http://www.jakeludington.com/hddvd/20061204_xbox_video_marketplace_and_hddvd_comparison.html

fyi here is a comparison between v for vendetta. its the only one ive ever found and shows how close they are.

benwaggoner

07-27-07, 03:31 PM

Are any of these services actually able to download HD movies?
Xbox Live Marketplace has a wide variety of downloadable HD movies.

paxi

07-29-07, 10:17 AM

I use netflix movie watcher service occasionally. Here are the quick pros/cons

Pros

1) Surprised at the speed. Using a wi-fi connection it takes about 1-2 minutes before the movie starts.

2) growing selection - good for TV shows, documentaries, and some rarer things

3) It's free! ie, no additional cost to the netflix plan that you already use

Con's

1) this is definitely not HD material. Suitable for PC only. I have connected for kicks via HDMI to a 72" HDTV and it is unwatchable. Occasional blank screens as well

2) No search engine within the netflix movie watcher section to find specific movies. Must laboriously browse thru

3) although selection is growing it is nothing to brag about in its current state

Basically, as it functions now, it makes for occasional background entertainment. eg., while cooking dinner, feeding the baby (no hands to surf the net!), etc. Improvents in resolution and selection I imagine are forthcoming as this seems to be their answer to BB's total access program.

skogan

07-29-07, 11:29 AM

Robert Clark

07-29-07, 08:34 PM

O Brother Where Art Though looked very sweet, a big upgrade over the EE plagued DVD, but I thought it still has room for improvement if it ever comes out on BD (Disney film). A 1080p version should look even better.
Great film!

jagouar

07-29-07, 09:14 PM

it might look a bit better but i kinda doubt it will be alot better.... almost none of the movies look substantially better on hd-dvd/bluray. And o brother where art thou already looked very good on the marketplace.

Im sure it will be like the others and look & sound a bit better than the marketplace...

benwaggoner

07-30-07, 12:20 PM

I rent HD movies off XBL all the time. I love them (though I have a 720P projector).
The only thing I would ask - and I never thought I cared this much about audio - but I would love it if you could start using DD+ at about 1.5 Mbs. That would be awesome. It's hard to go back to DD after you get DD+ and lossless. (although for me lossless isn't a significant improvement over DD+ )

A step up in video quality (480 -> 720) deserves a complimentary step up in audio quality (664K -> 1.5Mbs)
Actually, the audio in the file is encoded as WMA Pro. You're getting AC-3 output since that's what the TOSLink outputs. But it's 640 Kbps AC-3, so a step up from DVD's 384 or 448.

Better yet if you had an amp that supported WMA Pro decode, and then you could avoid the recompression entirely.

jagouar

07-30-07, 06:17 PM

benwaggoner

07-30-07, 08:10 PM

btw something ive always wondered with the service.... since the model you follow is vod based where content expires after a certain time is ms archiving the movies removed from the service or deleting them? ie if the content providers/ms ever wake up and give us a nice permanent library would all of the removed content have to be re-encoded?
I'm not sure what the practice is. But in general I like to budget for reencoding all assets every 18 months or so, to take advantage of improved encoding technology.

BrynRhys

07-30-07, 08:23 PM

benwaggoner,

Are you able to talk about any of the download distributions models currently under development or discussion? For example, anything that moves from a point-to-point model to a mesh-to-point where different chunks of the file could be sourced from other users simultaneously?

SDouglas

07-30-07, 10:50 PM

benwaggoner:

Is there any chance that a service something similar to Xbox Live HD movie downloads will come to Vista?

SCD

benwaggoner

07-30-07, 11:00 PM

Are you able to talk about any of the download distributions models currently under development or discussion? For example, anything that moves from a point-to-point model to a mesh-to-point where different chunks of the file could be sourced from other users simultaneously?
I don't really know much about the distribution methods, sorry.

We do have a whole lot of servers and bandwidth :).

b2bonez

07-31-07, 07:49 PM

I don't really know much about the distribution methods, sorry.

We do have a whole lot of servers and bandwidth :).
And more on the way..

Microsoft Corp. is relying on green technologies in its newest data centers, including one in San Antonio where it is breaking ground on Monday.

The San Antonio building, one of several in the works at various locations, will be 500,000 square feet and contain tens of thousands of servers, said Michael Manos, senior director of data centers at Microsoft. The company announced it would build the center in San Antonio earlier this year.

The first phase of the facility will be operational in July next year, he said.

Microsoft's software plus services and Windows Live initiatives are driving these construction efforts, which will support the online services, he said. Microsoft is not alone among Internet services companies building new facilities to support hosted services. Google Inc. and Yahoo Inc. have also both announced development of new large data centers.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20070731/tc_pcworld/135241;_ylt=ArSEgpN2uproFyfQs6.Re6oE1vAI

b2b

benwaggoner

08-03-07, 04:29 PM

I've got a new blog post up talking about encoding a movie trailer for both STB (Xbox 360 and AppleTV) and mobile (iPod and Zune) that might be of interest for this discussion.

http://on10.net/Blogs/benwagg/hands-on-with-the-temporary-insanity-trailer/

Plus a digest of how I wound up being a compression nerd.

jagouar

08-05-07, 12:22 AM

btw just rented bridge to terabithia off xbox live marketplace.... anybody else only get 2.0 audio? I was pretty disappointed it wasnt atleast 5.1.

darkedgex

08-05-07, 12:37 AM

Why is this stickied in the Blu-ray & HD DVD Areas subforum? Shouldn't this be somewhere else? I have absolutely zero interest in downloads.

benwaggoner

08-05-07, 01:17 AM

Why is this stickied in the Blu-ray & HD DVD Areas subforum? Shouldn't this be somewhere else? I have absolutely zero interest in downloads.
Ever? That seems like a pretty strong statement! Are you against any theoretical download system, or just download as is available today.

jwv651

08-05-07, 01:33 AM

Why is this stickied in the Blu-ray & HD DVD Areas subforum? Shouldn't this be somewhere else? I have absolutely zero interest in downloads.You better get use to it because it is the future. :eek:

Zassk

08-05-07, 03:21 AM

Why is this stickied in the Blu-ray & HD DVD Areas subforum? Shouldn't this be somewhere else? I have absolutely zero interest in downloads.

This is actually the "HDTV Software Media Discussion" subforum, which makes it the best location for discussion of HD downloads.

darkedgex

08-05-07, 01:16 PM

Ever? That seems like a pretty strong statement! Are you against any theoretical download system, or just download as is available today.
Download as is available today for the most part. The quality isn't quite there in my opinion, and I'd never want to buy/download movies that were crippled with unnecessary DRM/copy protection (yes, physical media like BD and HD DVD have that in the form of AACS, but at least those can be overcome for the moment). And this is totally ignoring infrastructure concerns that are out of the studios (and Microsofts) hands; bandwidth for downloading films at present would require people to wait for potentially hours (maybe days) before being able to watch the movie they've purchased.

darkedgex

08-05-07, 01:21 PM

This is actually the "HDTV Software Media Discussion" subforum, which makes it the best location for discussion of HD downloads.
In the overall hierarchy, this forum is beneath the "Blu-ray & HD DVD Areas" which implies that topics in this forum are of that nature. As to this being the "HDTV Software Media Discussion" forum, "media" suggests something physical while video downloads does not.

jagouar

08-05-07, 01:43 PM

Download as is available today for the most part. The quality isn't quite there in my opinion, and I'd never want to buy/download movies that were crippled with unnecessary DRM/copy protection (yes, physical media like BD and HD DVD have that in the form of AACS, but at least those can be overcome for the moment). And this is totally ignoring infrastructure concerns that are out of the studios (and Microsofts) hands; bandwidth for downloading films at present would require people to wait for potentially hours (maybe days) before being able to watch the movie they've purchased.

actually you are dead wrong with respects to microsofts live service.... i wait ~40 mins to buffer enough of the movie to play. the only way you will wait days to download enough is if you are on 56k dialup. Even the slowest grade 768k dsl would take about 10 hrs to download 6 gigs.

And bluray has just as much copy protection (and really more) with bd+ coming soon as the xbox does.

bloodta

08-05-07, 06:48 PM

btw just rented bridge to terabithia off xbox live marketplace.... anybody else only get 2.0 audio? I was pretty disappointed it wasnt atleast 5.1.

It seems from my experience, that most XBL HD movies now are in 2.0, here is a list of what I've downloaded in the past.
2.0 list-
Waterboy
Flags of our Fathers (even though it say's 5.1)
Mighty Joe Young
Valiant
Happy Feet (even though it say's 5.1)
Valiant
Unbreakable
5.1
Iwo Jima
Music and Lyrics
Babel
The Italian Job
The Posiden Adventure
The Perfect Storm
Blood Diamond

jagouar

08-05-07, 07:31 PM

yeah the fact that even close to 50% of the hd movies are not 5.1 is very disheartening... and i have been one of the bigger xblvm fans here but if this continues im going to take back ever positive thing i have said about the service.

and i know its not really ms's problem as the studios are providing the content but ms has to be proactive and force the studios hand to get 5.1 across the board. wonder if benwaggoner would comment on why the studios are only providing ms with 2.0 audio tracks when the hd-dvd/blurays and even dvd's have a full 5.1 track. It seems like the studios are having to go out of their way to not provide a 5.1 track.

benwaggoner

08-06-07, 08:48 PM

Download as is available today for the most part. The quality isn't quite there in my opinion, and I'd never want to buy/download movies that were crippled with unnecessary DRM/copy protection (yes, physical media like BD and HD DVD have that in the form of AACS, but at least those can be overcome for the moment). And this is totally ignoring infrastructure concerns that are out of the studios (and Microsofts) hands; bandwidth for downloading films at present would require people to wait for potentially hours (maybe days) before being able to watch the movie they've purchased.
Download certainly will catch up with optical disc for quality before long.

As for DRM, it's hard to imagine getting really great quality HD content sold without any DRM, since it would be widely pirated. But I suppose if there was a price premium you were willing to pay for non-DRM, it might become available.

RobertR1

08-06-07, 09:13 PM

Ben,

Not sure if you remember but my posts about the XBL video service have always been positive. However there are a few areas of improvement:

1. 5.1 sound. If I'm paying the premium for a HD version of a movie, I deserve some 5.1 surround. 2.0 doesn't cut it. I'm sure this is a studio decision but please push them a little to use 5.1 esp. with HD movies.

2. User interface lag. I've noticed a fair bit of stuttering/jerking/skipping when I hit try to bring up the controls bar while the movie is playing. Once it's up, the navigation is good but bringing it up can be problematic.

3. Random lockups. For the last 3-4 movies I've downloaded, anytime I try to exit the movie so I can delete it, the 360 locks up and I have to hard reset it.

Other than that, like I said, great service and certainly looking forward to seeing more IQ improvements down the road.

Dahlsim

08-06-07, 10:35 PM

Actually, the audio in the file is encoded as WMA Pro. You're getting AC-3 output since that's what the TOSLink outputs. But it's 640 Kbps AC-3, so a step up from DVD's 384 or 448.

Better yet if you had an amp that supported WMA Pro decode, and then you could avoid the recompression entirely.

Recently picked up a Pioneer reciever and the WMA Pro does go nicely with the 360 audio. Now you need to get a few more reciever manufacturers on board...

jagouar

08-06-07, 11:03 PM

just wondering but did you compare it vs regular dolby digital? im wondering how much of a difference there is.

benwaggoner

08-06-07, 11:57 PM

Not sure if you remember but my posts about the XBL video service have always been positive. However there are a few areas of improvement:

1. 5.1 sound. If I'm paying the premium for a HD version of a movie, I deserve some 5.1 surround. 2.0 doesn't cut it. I'm sure this is a studio decision but please push them a little to use 5.1 esp. with HD movies.
I just checked in with the team on this. They confirmed that they strongly prefer to provide 5.1 when available, and work really hard with the content providers to get 5.1 tracks. However, most download services are stereo only, so the groups that provide source for download services often only have the stereo mixes. We wind up doing quite a lot of legwork to track down 5.1 mixes even when they're not readily available. I hope to see the percentage of 5.1 mixes to continue to go up as we work through some of these issues.

I'd say the CSI episodes are consistently the best looking stuff on XBLM, since they provide us the highest quality source to work with.

Robert Clark

08-07-07, 01:16 AM

It seems from my experience, that most XBL HD movies now are in 2.0, here is a list of what I've downloaded in the past.
2.0 list-
Waterboy
Flags of our Fathers (even though it say's 5.1)
Mighty Joe Young
Valiant
Happy Feet (even though it say's 5.1)
Valiant
Unbreakable
5.1
Iwo Jima
Music and Lyrics
Babel
The Italian Job
The Posiden Adventure
The Perfect Storm
Blood Diamond

Good to see I wasn't crazy... :)

Butler5

08-07-07, 10:33 AM

is MS doing day and date with Warner now as Last Night TMNT in HD was on th emarketplace and I downloaded it?

Dahlsim

08-08-07, 04:59 AM

just wondering but did you compare it vs regular dolby digital? im wondering how much of a difference there is.

Replacing my trusty old Marantz due to a short gave me an excuse to get a new receiver but i'm still in the period where I could exchange the Pioneer Elite VSX-91TXH for an Onkyo 805 or a comparable Sony. Right now it's not looking like I will need to...

I've done well with Pio in the past and the receivers seem matched nicely with the 360 due the use of WMA pro. I'm still taste testing but so far I'm impressed with the WMA Pro sound from the 360. Trying not to fool myself but using the hd dvd drive for quick swapping between DD, DTS and the WMA I'd say the WMA Pro gets that extra ounce of AQ.

It sounds very close in vibrancy, fullness to my blu-ray PCM tracks if I use them as a reference. I've been esp. impressed with the LFE on the few movies I've tried so far.

eecubed

08-13-07, 12:31 PM

eecubed

08-13-07, 12:57 PM

benwaggoner

08-13-07, 08:28 PM

ISPs to BBC: We will throttle iPlayer unless you pay up.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070813-isps-to-bbc-we-throttle-iplayer-unless-you-pay-up.html

If you want to see VoD, you should pay carefull attention to the Net Neutrality debates going on.
Kind of frustrating, yes. And we spent a ton of time with the BBC to get the bandwidth as low as possible within their quality targets. It's a very interesting project, and a unique workflow since they're much more concerned than aggragate bitrate instead of per clip bitrate. It's all encoded with fixed quality instead of fixed bitrate, so you'll see file size vary a lot with the complexity.

benwaggoner

08-13-07, 08:50 PM

Google selleth then taketh away, proving the need for DRM circumvention
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070812-google-selleth-then-taketh-away-proving-the-need-for-drm-circumvention.html

Another issue that video downloading must deal with - what happens when the vendor shuts down and DRM shuts down access to previously downloaded videos.
The problem with DRM circumvention is that it blows up rental models, and I do love my flat-priced URGE subscription. For busy-but-fickle folks like myself, buying media has an ugly $/hour cost.

A better solution would be some kind of key escrow system, so that purchased content can be available beyond the live of the original licensing entity.

Of course, in this era of double-dipping and 10-year formats, it's not like buying content is really forever anyway - it's more like a lease :).

Ilka

08-13-07, 09:21 PM

...

Of course, in this era of double-dipping and 10-year formats, it's not like buying content is really forever anyway - it's more like a lease :).

But with todays optical media formats approaching or meeting "transparency to the master", why do we care, if an optical disk can last decades+ (especially with Managed Copy)?

benwaggoner

08-13-07, 11:21 PM

But with todays optical media formats approaching or meeting "transparency to the master", why do we care, if an optical disk can last decades+ (especially with Managed Copy)?
But there's always a new master :). Seriously, CD is archive grade, and I can't tell you how many copies of "London Calling" I've bought over the years, and every one was really an upgrade. And that's the exact same underlying technology.

Plus, we're transparent to the 1080p 8-bit 4:2:0 master. The next gen display technology (2015?) will likely be 4K 12-bit.

markrubin

08-14-07, 07:53 AM

Wall Street Journal Aug 14, 2007 article

Video Surge Divides Web Watchers
Pessimists Say File Swapping Is Creating Traffic Jam,
But Optimists, and a Cisco Report, Call Fears Overblown
By KEVIN J. DELANEY and BOBBY WHITE

In an article in today's WSJ, they discuss the possibility of bandwidth limitations because of heavy use of the Internet for video

snippet:

"High-quality video delivered over the Internet to play on TV sets is a major wild card. If consumers begin downloading massive amounts of high-definition movies and TV shows, that could start clogging the so-called last-mile connections to homes.

And the large size of such video files means that jams can occur even if not many people are accessing them. About 40 hours of high-definition video represent as much traffic as one million email messages"

However Cisco counters that new equipment they have developed will allow Internet capacity to keep up with traffic for the foreseeable future

eecubed

08-14-07, 03:04 PM

markrubin

08-14-07, 03:10 PM

It will only take a couple of hundred billions to upgrade the national infrastructure to the new equipment, that's all. Some of those devices are a million+ a piece.

then it is time for another snippet from the same WSJ article:

"Most involved in the debate acknowledge the perils of any predictions. Robert Metcalfe, a venture capitalist at Polaris Venture Partners who helped build the early Internet as an engineer, in a 1995 magazine column warned of a "catastrophic collapse" of the Internet in 1996. He vowed to eat his words if it didn't come to pass.

There were some service outages, but Mr. Metcalfe eventually conceded he was wrong. At a 1997 conference, he put his column in a blender with liquid and slurped it down in front of the audience.

Today, Mr. Metcalfe thinks online-video traffic could cause slowdowns in Internet service for consumers, but that could lead them to use online video less, resulting in a sort of equilibrium. "I've been talking about the next big Internet thing, 'the video Internet,' for years now," he says. "See -- some of my predictions do come true."

markrubin

08-14-07, 03:37 PM

jagouar

08-14-07, 05:09 PM

I think a possible unintended consequence of the Format Battle of the HD optical disc format is that studios may look for an alternate delivery method: including downloading: it eliminates the need for the disc manufacturing process and better addresses the DRM concerns for the studios

I prefer owning or renting an optical disc myself and I understand there are significant hurdles to overcome to make network delivery of HD content a commercial success

After using both hd-dvd/bluray and the live download service if the download service was able to mimick netflix (and its pricing) I would rather download all of my movies and kick both bluray/hd-dvd to the curb.

To me the ease of use/quickness outweighs the small audio&visual quality differences compared to the bluray/hd-dvd version.

eecubed

08-14-07, 11:44 PM

I think a possible unintended consequence of the Format Battle of the HD optical disc format is that studios may look for an alternate delivery method: including downloading: it eliminates the need for the disc manufacturing process and better addresses the DRM concerns for the studios

I prefer owning or renting an optical disc myself and I understand there are significant hurdles to overcome to make network delivery of HD content a commercial success

still one should never say it will never happen

It will work once someone pays for the end-to-end bandwidth. I don't think that ISPs are interested in subsidizing the studio movie distribution.

The quickest way that I see this happening is for ISP to become VoD distributors similar to the way that cable companies handle VoD. The data is sent once to the ISP who then charge a rental fee to distribute to the end user. The fee is used to upgrade the ISP infrastructure to support the needed higher QoS/premium service. Any other type of bulk transfer would be sent to the low priority/min bandwidth service. That is why ISPs are against Net Neutrality.

Zassk

08-15-07, 01:31 PM

I understand that 300 came out on XBLM this week (HD and SD). I was wondering if anyone has done a comparison to the movie on HD/BD?

randym431

08-16-07, 02:54 AM

woops

randym431

08-16-07, 03:30 AM

benwaggoner

08-16-07, 12:04 PM

Movielink was bought out by blobkbuster. Wondering the future of movielink? Did BB buy them to push their download service, of kill them off? Movielink has nothing listed in the "coming soon" anymore. Doesnt look good...

I for one will miss them. They had a nice selection of both rentals and purchases.
And that brings up another DRM issue. Now, if you get a new HD or PC, you can copy your saved purchased downloads to the new drive and ask movielink cs to resent the license.
When BB takes over, or kills movielink off, how to get your license resent if needed???
I haven't actually had any direct involvement with Movielink, but it's hard to imagine a company with as many distractions as Blockbuster would go through that kind of effort unless they wanted to continue to run and expand that business.

The point about DRM is a fair one - I'd like to see some kind of escrow service for DRM, so that valid licenses could continue to be available even if the company that issued them went under.

That said, Google's recent abandonment of their DRM customers was startling - it's not like Google lacks servers to continue to service existing licenses :).

Dahlsim

08-16-07, 12:49 PM

Today, Mr. Metcalfe thinks online-video traffic could cause slowdowns in Internet service for consumers, but that could lead them to use online video less, resulting in a sort of equilibrium. "I've been talking about the next big Internet thing, 'the video Internet,' for years now," he says. "See -- some of my predictions do come true."[/B]

We've been slowly watching the "Jericho" series in HD from XBL. Don't watch much network TV so this is a very interesting series to catch up on commercial free.

I noticed the other day it was extremely slow to the point that it died while I was watching it, streaming/progressive download as were. My FiOS connection is fast and I usually have no problems but if that were a common occurence it would certainly put a damper on the experience.

If demand goes up they'll need to find a way for the network to keep up or risk killing it.

tintin1001

08-17-07, 04:33 AM

Google Video is proof why Download Services should be avoided at all costs.

markrubin

08-20-07, 08:41 AM

August 20, 2007, 12:00 am
A Fourth Way to Deliver TV to the Home

By Brad Stone

New York Times 20 Aug 2007

snippets:

"One of the most covert startups in Silicon Valley, the temporarily named Building B, is lifting its head up today to announce a round of funding. Though executives at the Belmont, Calif. company still aren’t saying much about their plans, they appear have sizeable ambitions: Building B is aiming to bring both television and other media content, restyled for the Internet age, into your living room in competition with your cable, satellite or telco’s IPTV service.

Today, Building B announces a $17 million round of funding by venture capital firms ******thaler Ventures, Index Ventures, Omni Capital and private investors.

Andy Lack, the chairman of Sony BMG Music Entertainment, is joining its board of directors. The 14 month-old company was started by longtime investor and entrepreneur Buno Pati and Phil Wiser, the former chief technology officer of Sony Corporation of America. Last week, they offered a few details about their plans.

The company may not go directly to retailers with the service. The founders hinted the service would be a perfect “video companion” for ISPs or telcos who have not yet made big IPTV investments but are looking to offer comprehensive “triple play” packages to customers. Expect to hear more from Building B this fall."

The service may be a hybrid: delivering content over both the internet and wireless OTA

tsb

08-22-07, 07:57 AM

1. Has anyone figured out a way to download the movies on XBL, rip them from the HD to store them permanently elsewhere and play them back successfully?

2. Can I use the XBL service from Taiwan? I'd buy a 360 if I could watch some good US TV shows via Live.

RubberToe

08-23-07, 02:49 PM

Mods,
Thank you for creating this sticky thread. Up to now, my only downloading experience has been through Amazon Unbox downloading directly to my Series 3 Tivo. I don't believe that they have any HD content available, but I was quite impressed with the quality of the 1960's era Twilight Zone episodes that I downloaded for purchase. I believe they were $1.99 each.

I firmly agree with the poster who suggested that any and all DRM associated with downloaded files needs to somehow be able to work even when the original provider disappears from the scene.

And also, whats with all the posters that want the thread removed? Claiming that the encoding will be sub-par, and the audio will not be loseless, yadda yadda yadda... You know, sometimes you just have to give things a chance to develop. There are bandwidth limitations in the real world, just as there are physical limitations as to how many bits can get stored on any given piece of plastic. There are going to be a certain number of people who are simply never satisfied no matter how "good" things get. There is an interesting discussion taking place on the Insiders thread the last couple of days regarding just how many lossless audio tracks can/should be put on each HD-DVD or BD, versus having the ability to download say a French lossless audio track should you need that particular language. You get the idea.

If content providers aren't providing the quality that any given person wants, no one is forcing them to pay to download content. You would certainly hope that as the download pipes get bigger that the providers would do everything they can to deliver the best possible viewing and listening experience. And if they don't, then that is where they are going to find that consumers are going to buy from whomever *does* provide the best content. Thats the beauty of an open marketplace. The idea that they shouldn't even be making content available unless it is 1080p lossless audio is ludicrous...

I'll take the additional risk of being branded an MS shill :) and also add that having read the entire thread, I am somewhat more inclined to get an Xbox-360, with HD-DVD add on drive, and the ability to download HD content. Not much of a gamer, but for movie watching and HD downloading I could see doing it provided the price is right and the experience is as seamless as the users suggest.

RT

bflip1080

08-24-07, 05:15 PM

I am getting ready to get my first 360 (an elite), and after looking on the xboxlive marketplace webpage i am confused about the audio for hd movies. Some, any by some i mean very few, say "5.1 available." Do all, most or hardly any HD movies on xblm have 5.1 audio? i realize it is compressed audio and not dolby trueHD or any of the high bitrate formats. It just seems to be a waste to watch a movie in HD without 5.1 sound, allbeit compressed.

jagouar

08-24-07, 05:20 PM

No their webpage is a HORRIBLE.... whoever runs that needs to get their act together (mentioned this in the past). Generally most HD movies have a 5.1 track (with disney being the big exception). For some reason disney's stuff is only 2.0 audio from what has been released thus far.

But generally WB, paramount, lionsgate movies are 5.1 but there are a few exceptions to that rule.

bflip1080

08-24-07, 05:23 PM

that is what i was hoping. thanks again.

manikin

08-27-07, 10:53 PM

In the news again and this thread seems appropriate for the information

http://consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/08/comcast_ban.html?imw=Y

Story is running on slashdot.org as well.

basically the AUP on comcast can drop internet unlimited bandwidth "abusers" at comcast's discretion.

Zassk

08-30-07, 03:16 AM

Fox is the latest studio to join Xbox Live Marketplace:

Microsoft has signed up Fox as the newest partner for its Xbox Live Video Marketplace, and the two are launching with "Family Guy," a show aimed squarely at the service's young male gamer demo.

Video Marketplace, which allows Xbox 360 owners to download movies and TV shows via the vidgame console's Internet connection, already has films from Warner Bros., Paramount, Lionsgate and New Line and TV shows from CBS, NBC Universal and MTV Networks. Some content is available in high-def, making it the only Internet videostore offering HD downloads.

Deal likely marks the first step in a broader relationship between Fox and Microsoft to distribute TV shows and films.

Full article:

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117971070.html?categoryid=13&cs=1&nid=2562

Jonto81

08-30-07, 05:12 AM

Can anyone tell me when we in the UK will get to enjoy the full Xbox live Movie and TV downloads as we can only enjoy 5 movie trailers and the videos of the live 5 aside competion?

jagouar

08-30-07, 09:48 AM

Fox is the latest studio to join Xbox Live Marketplace:

Full article:

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117971070.html?categoryid=13&cs=1&nid=2562
wonder how long it will be until we see fox movies on the marketplace.... it wasnt unexpected since they already put trailers up on the marketplace but if xbl is able to score fox hd movies they will have about as much studio support as anybody (and if universal comes online as well they will probably have more than hd-dvd or bluray)

dstrack

08-30-07, 10:11 AM

I've been downloading from Xbox Live Marketplace quite a bit. I have used both CinemaNow and MovieLink on my Media Ctr PC and while the experience was sub-par compared to Xbox it worked. No HD content that I've found right now tho... so Xbox Live still seems to be the best solution for me so far. I've also recently tried the ShowTime Download service which works quite nicely and the quality seems very good (maybe it's HD? not sure... but it's close)

chad473

08-31-07, 02:13 PM

Can anyone tell me when we in the UK will get to enjoy the full Xbox live Movie and TV downloads as we can only enjoy 5 movie trailers and the videos of the live 5 aside competion?

they announced at E3 that it was coming to canada and europe this fall.

markrubin

09-03-07, 06:37 PM

Sony to Challenge Apple In TV, Movie Downloads

CEO Stringer Sees Video as Critical; Market Up for Grabs
By YUKARI IWATANI KANE
September 4, 2007
Wall Street Journal

[snippets]

TOKYO -- Two years after taking over the helm of Sony Corp., Chief Executive Howard Stringer is quietly preparing a big move to expand the company and challenge rival Apple Inc. in an area that has thus far promised more than it has delivered: video-downloading services.

People familiar with the situation say Mr. Stringer is planning to use Sony's technology-packed PlayStation 3 and PlayStation Portable videogame machines, along with its Bravia high-definition television sets, to develop products and services to let users download television shows and movies, similar to the way they download music using Apple's iTunes store and iPods. A Sony spokesman declined to comment on the company's strategy.

The foray into video downloading will be a crucial test for Mr. Stringer, who has succeeded in slashing costs at Sony but must now prove he can also find new areas of growth. Since the failure of the Walkman to beat the iPod, Sony has been struggling to come up with a new product that defines the industry standard in innovation.

It is also a test of whether Mr. Stringer has succeeded in taming Sony's fiercely independent corporate culture. In the past, the company has struggled to get its various units to cooperate. An area like video downloading would require extremely close teamwork among the electronics, movie and videogame units.

People familiar with the situation say Mr. Stringer has been laying the groundwork in recent months to shift the company's focus to video downloading. For example, they say he decided to end Sony's unsuccessful efforts to challenge Apple in the music-downloading business in order to focus on the new strategy. In May, Mr. Stringer quietly decided to shut down the unit that was charged with creating a portable music player and online music service. Sony said last Thursday that the service would be phased out and the latest Walkmans would use Microsoft's Windows Media software.

The people privy to Sony's plans also say Mr. Stringer, over the protests of some executives, personally enforced a decision to adopt a certain digital-rights management software that will eventually be used in Sony's products. That is an indication of how serious he is about making sure the company's various units come together to make this strategy a success, they say.

TommyV

09-04-07, 09:02 AM

I admit it, I didn't read the whole thread but I didn't see this mentioned in the first couple pages. What about 5.1 DD tracks? This is one reason i find myself never taking advantage of the Netflix streaming video service. The picture quality is acceptable for some stuff but I want my 5.1 sound!

Dahlsim

09-04-07, 11:02 AM

People familiar with the situation say Mr. Stringer has been laying the groundwork in recent months to shift the company's focus to video downloading.

Something I've said before, optical fans worried that digital downloads could supplant HDM have more to be concerned about from Sony than MS. Sony has content, lots of it.

Be interesting to see what they have for ownership model as opposed to rentals only. MS service draws the line at TV (own) vs. Movies (rent).

Mr. Stringer is planning to use Sony's technology-packed PlayStation 3 and PlayStation Portable videogame machines, along with its Bravia high-definition television sets, to develop products and services to let users download television shows and movies,

Of course again, PS3 is the key.

benwaggoner

09-04-07, 09:52 PM

tsb

09-05-07, 12:24 AM

1. Has anyone figured out a way to download the TV shows/movies on XBL, rip them from the HD to store them permanently elsewhere and play them back successfully?

2. Can I use the XBL service from Taiwan? I'd buy a 360 if I could watch some good US TV shows via Live.

I'd love to be able to d/l the movies I want to rent, but I'll always prefer optical or solid state for movies I want to buy.

jagouar

09-05-07, 01:00 AM

1. i havent heard of anything and doubt we ever will. the service is a closed platform and part of the reason (imo) its gotten as much support as it has is its pretty secure. movies are only rentals anyways so you cant keep them regardless. but the tv download thing is pretty much negated anyways since once you buy a tv show you can download and delete it and redownload it whenever you want as many times as you want (provided ms still has the content online). Id rather have MS store the content long term anyhow because I would bet they have better redundancy that I would have in the home. Plus its offsite storage so not even a fire would kill your content.

2. the xbox service is only us and this fall comes to canada/parts of europe.

jagouar

09-05-07, 01:07 AM

Something I've said before, optical fans worried that digital downloads could supplant HDM have more to be concerned about from Sony than MS. Sony has content, lots of it.

Agreed.... I welcome sony to the download party but something tells me their content will lack much more than MS's will. Sure sony will have their content there and maybe wb would bring theirs but I dont see too many other partners lining up to get onboard.

They will potentially have alot of problems keeping the content secure (being that the hd is easily swapped out and can run linux on it) and I think one of the bigger reasons people are flocking to xbox live is the security (disney and the fox announcements). I dont see either of those companies coming to live w/o the security in place. Its going to be interesting to see if sony can stand up to the drm concerns having a more open platform and if they cant keep it secure I dont think too many providers will bring their content to psn and sony alone will not be enough to make it successful.

Dahlsim

09-05-07, 06:43 AM

Agreed.... I welcome sony to the download party but something tells me their content will lack much more than MS's will. Sure sony will have their content there and maybe wb would bring theirs but I dont see too many other partners lining up to get onboard.

Well I don't know, Hollywood lined up behind Sony for Blu-ray didn't they?

They will potentially have alot of problems keeping the content secure (being that the hd is easily swapped out and can run linux on it) and I think one of the bigger reasons people are flocking to xbox live is the security (disney and the fox announcements). I dont see either of those companies coming to live w/o the security in place. Its going to be interesting to see if sony can stand up to the drm concerns having a more open platform and if they cant keep it secure I dont think too many providers will bring their content to psn and sony alone will not be enough to make it successful.

Agree that inviting Linux and add your own harddrives to the PS3 party would seem to make it the ultimate hackers dream in the long run. It's very similar to the way Xbox#1 became the best mod machine on the market. Good luck keeping a box secure an open source free operating system on board.

Still with the way Hollywood is moving to Xbox Marketplace I'd expect Sony to jump in full force. More wars, more HD for consumers.

skogan

09-05-07, 10:22 AM

2. the xbox service is only us and this fall comes to canada/parts of europe.
But one can register as living anywhere they like, I suppose.

Lee Stewart

09-06-07, 09:21 AM

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/09/06/vudu-set-top-box-goes-on-sale-for-399/

VUDU set-top-box goes on sale for $399

Although we're not exactly sure how many of you are rushing to bust out your wallet over this, VUDU's movies-on-demand STB is now on sale to those interested. The box itself will run customers a stiff $399 up front, and while you will have "instant access to 5,000 movies from major studios," you'll be paying between $0.99 and $3.99 for one-time rentals and $4.99 to $19.99 for movie purchases, "depending on the age" of the title. Of course, there's no activation or subscription charges once you fork out that $400, and while an exhaustive list of flicks doesn't look to be available, a few notables are 300, Dreamgirls, The Queen, Music and Lyrics, The Descent, The Last Mimzy, and Breach. Well, now you know, and for those pulling the trigger, expect it to arrive sometime near the month's end.

tsb

09-07-07, 09:33 PM

But one can register as living anywhere they like, I suppose.

Can anyone confrim this? Can I register a US address and CC and get US TV content from Taiwan or is there some IP checking?

tsb

09-07-07, 09:35 PM

1. i havent heard of anything and doubt we ever will. the service is a closed platform and part of the reason (imo) its gotten as much support as it has is its pretty secure. movies are only rentals anyways so you cant keep them regardless. but the tv download thing is pretty much negated anyways since once you buy a tv show you can download and delete it and redownload it whenever you want as many times as you want (provided ms still has the content online). Id rather have MS store the content long term anyhow because I would bet they have better redundancy that I would have in the home. Plus its offsite storage so not even a fire would kill your content.

If I purchase something I should be able to store it offline and play it back on HTPC. Bummer.

Padriac

09-12-07, 07:06 PM

This forum is a great idea. Right now some people are questioning it, even mad at it, but in 5 years all the action will be happening here.

My only thought: the "line" between HD and non-HD is a bit blurry when it comes to download services as they usually aren't inherently one or the other. For example, right now iTunes obviously doesn't offer HD movies, but of course this will happen eventually and when it does it will be a big deal.

To me, "downloads" trump the SD/HD distinction and all download services should be discussed in the same venue. Seems silly to ignore the largest online movie distributors because they haven't flipped the HD switch yet.

And I know people don't like DVD or even sub-DVD quality downloads, but like I said: this distribution method is truly in its infancy so maybe we should be a bit more open-minded in the discussion. Amazon and Apple are definitely important players to watch.

jagouar

09-19-07, 09:32 AM

benwaggoner

09-19-07, 06:36 PM

Is this the first time a movie is only available on a download service in HD? (well not counting the disney launch stuff). But Superman Doomsday was put up last night on the marketplace in HD. I was kinda surprised to see not hd-dvd or bluray release.
It's happened for TV episodes before (a HD XBLM-only episode of South Park).

I expect we'll see more of this in the future. There's plenty of content with a geographically distributed audience where HD download makes sense where HD DVD/BD replicaiton might not. The CreateSpace 1000 HD Indies is a different way of addressing the same issue.

Dahlsim

09-19-07, 08:09 PM

Is this the first time a movie is only available on a download service in HD? (well not counting the disney launch stuff). But Superman Doomsday was put up last night on the marketplace in HD. I was kinda surprised to see not hd-dvd or bluray release.

I forget off the top my head but I want to say I've seen a few others actually because I made a mental note. HD on download but not on hd dvd or blu-ray at all.

Wait, Open Waters 2? wasn't that one? What about Scarlett Johanssen in "The Good Woman", isn't that another?

Rent to own, or a download to own option for movies similar to what Xbox Marketplace currently has for TV would really round out the service.

mikemorel

09-20-07, 11:16 AM

Microsoft’s Complete Xbox 360/Live Stat Attack (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7222&Itemid=53)

Xbox 360 continues to lead with the largest library of on-demand high-definition movies and television in the U.S. on-demand market. Twenty-nine movie studios and TV networks continue to provide a growing catalogue of premium high- and standard-definition entertainment content that to date totals 2,800 hours.

Xbox LIVE Marketplace is now the leading provider of on-demand high-definition content in the U.S., providing more than twice the number of hours as leading cable operators.

skogan

09-20-07, 12:16 PM

I was just about to post that Mike. That's a pretty incredible stat. The 360 sells twice as many HD VOD movies as leading cable operators. Impressive.

benwaggoner

09-20-07, 03:32 PM

I was just about to post that Mike. That's a pretty incredible stat. The 360 sells twice as many HD VOD movies as leading cable operators. Impressive.
Wow - I didn't know we rocked THAT hard :).

wakashizuma

09-20-07, 03:44 PM

Ben,
When is he XBL video marketplace is coming to Canada?
I can't wait to rent my HD movies online!

jagouar

09-20-07, 03:57 PM

I was just about to post that Mike. That's a pretty incredible stat. The 360 sells twice as many HD VOD movies as leading cable operators. Impressive.
it says 2x the number of hours of content online (atleast thats the way i read it). whats really scary is they dont even have alot of the networks (even though fox is a matter of time seeing as familyguy is on from them its a matter of time before we see their movies)

if/when that happens xbox live marketplace will have more studio support than hd-dvd or bluray (or if universal comes online).

skogan

09-20-07, 05:20 PM

it says 2x the number of hours of content online (atleast thats the way i read it). whats really scary is they dont even have alot of the networks (even though fox is a matter of time seeing as familyguy is on from them its a matter of time before we see their movies)

if/when that happens xbox live marketplace will have more studio support than hd-dvd or bluray (or if universal comes online).

It's kind of ambiguous, I'm not sure which interpretation is right.

benwaggoner

09-20-07, 05:37 PM

Ben,
When is he XBL video marketplace is coming to Canada?
I can't wait to rent my HD movies online!
Not something I can announce myself, obviously.

Bear in mind that we just license the content, so it's up to the content companies to decide what stuff we can sell into which markets. Although good news like today's certainly helps validate the market so they'll feel it's worth their while to deal with distributing in additional territories (which, granted, is quite a lot of work on their part).

Dahlsim

09-20-07, 07:21 PM

Wow - I didn't know we rocked THAT hard :).

I know you're not marketing Ben, but wouldn't you think that hd dvd group (or even BD or retailers) could see missed opportunities here to offer promotions or discounts for those that might want to purchase a movie they rented and liked?

wakashizuma

09-20-07, 09:57 PM

Ben,
when 5.1 is available, what codecs do you use? DD or WMA Pro?

benwaggoner

09-21-07, 01:29 AM

Ben,
when 5.1 is available, what codecs do you use? DD or WMA Pro?
XBLM content is always WMA Pro. It's a much more efficient at low bitrates than AC-3.

benwaggoner

09-21-07, 01:31 AM

I know you're not marketing Ben, but wouldn't you think that hd dvd group (or even BD or retailers) could see missed opportunities here to offer promotions or discounts for those that might want to purchase a movie they rented and liked?
Some things that seem obvious and simple from a technical and consumer perspective get a lot more challenging once the business guys get involved...

mschupp

09-21-07, 11:22 AM

Ben,

I'm curious about the startup costs for a studio on XBL. When a studio agrees to provide content, who does the encode? If Microsoft does, do the studios pay up front or is it included in the split of the revenue?

The reason I ask is that this seems to be a no-brainer for a studio. They get another revenue stream with a rental model and lots of DRM. No discs to manufacter, no stock to manager, no returns, etc. What's their downside?

water1

09-21-07, 11:39 AM

XBLM content is always WMA Pro. It's a much more efficient at low bitrates than AC-3.

I watched Shooter last night as my first XBLM download. My Pioneer Elite receiver showed DD 5.1. I have the 360 menu set to output WMA Pro and playing a HD DVD I can get the WMA Pro output. Should the Shooter sountrack have been in WMA Pro if things were working properly? Should the download trailers be output in WMA Pro?

benwaggoner

09-21-07, 04:49 PM

I watched Shooter last night as my first XBLM download. My Pioneer Elite receiver showed DD 5.1. I have the 360 menu set to output WMA Pro and playing a HD DVD I can get the WMA Pro output. Should the Shooter sountrack have been in WMA Pro if things were working properly? Should the download trailers be output in WMA Pro?
There are two different places you can set the output to WMA Pro - for HD DVD specifically, and for everything else on the 360. You might want to check you have it set in both places.

benwaggoner

09-21-07, 04:51 PM

I'm curious about the startup costs for a studio on XBL. When a studio agrees to provide content, who does the encode? If Microsoft does, do the studios pay up front or is it included in the split of the revenue?
I can't speak to the business aspects here. But the encoding is either done by us, or by the studio or a post house to our specs. We view the quality of XBLM as being a critical competitive advantage for us, so we do a lot of work to make sure the encoding is as good as possible.

The reason I ask is that this seems to be a no-brainer for a studio. They get another revenue stream with a rental model and lots of DRM. No discs to manufacter, no stock to manager, no returns, etc. What's their downside?
Sounds compelling to me :).

That said, there's a bar to meet on both sides - we certainly won't take just anything to publish on XBLM either.

water1

09-21-07, 05:53 PM

There are two different places you can set the output to WMA Pro - for HD DVD specifically, and for everything else on the 360. You might want to check you have it set in both places.

I can confirm that the menu in the system blade is set to DD & WMA Pro selection. The only WMA Pro I have been able to output has been from HD DVD's since the spring update. I'm not sure what other sources should be output in WMA Pro but after reading your posts I expected the movie download would be.

benwaggoner

09-22-07, 11:11 PM

I can confirm that the menu in the system blade is set to DD & WMA Pro selection. The only WMA Pro I have been able to output has been from HD DVD's since the spring update. I'm not sure what other sources should be output in WMA Pro but after reading your posts I expected the movie download would be.
Odd.

The next thing to try would be ripping some audio to WMA Pro, and trying to play that back.

mikemorel

09-23-07, 07:41 PM

A lengthy report on the online video marketplace from TV Technology.

As Internet TV Dawns, Visions Evolve, Conflict (http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0070/t.8592.html#)

by Gary Arlen, September 19, 2007

The only thing more mystifying than online video’s future is interpreting the contradictory forecasts about how it will arrive. Within a recent fortnight, researchers spewed their Internet video outlooks, which ranged from bullish expectations that nearly 87 percent of Internet users will watch online video by 2011 (according to eMarketer) to frets that only 16 percent of people who have downloaded video are satisfied with the experience (Parks Associates).

Magid Media Futures claimed that 14 percent of Americans ages 12 to 64 look at some form of online video on a daily basis. Nielsen, in a study for the Cable & Telecommunications Association for Marketing, found that 63 percent of broadband users (about 81 million people) have watched Internet video either at home or work, up 16 percent during a recent six-month period.

Other reports cited the inevitable strain that online video puts on telecom networks’ bandwidth capacity (New Millennium Research Council) and the continuing reticence of studios to make content available (eMarketer again, about the business’ barriers).

At the same time that these prognostications were flowing, a flurry of announcements arrived, such as the Veoh deal to carry NCAA Football online this fall (often in condensed “highlight” versions) and the looming arrival of the Fox/NBC “Hulu” online video joint venture.

Then there’s the introduction of multitudinous tools to help viewsers (a neologism for the interactive online customers) find and watch Internet TV content. For example, last month saw the expansion of Truveo, AOL’s new video search engine, where usage is growing at a 50 percent monthly pace. Blinkx.TV, another online video search service, surpassed 14 million hours of content this summer, and it has signed up more than 200 partners.

Meanwhile, consumers are loading up with “Internet Video Capable TV Devices,” says Emerging Media Dynamics, which expects the penetration of such units to go from 12 million homes now to nearly 50 million by 2012. That will include AppleTV (which is still in its infancy) and other set-top devices and media center units that are creeping into homes.

DIVERSE EXPECTATIONS

Despite these diverse expectations, it is certain that Internet video is part of our future. Part of the problem in calculating the timetable and scale of its impact is the simple definition of what “it” includes. Some experts focus on YouTube, Joost and other short-form services, while others concentrate on movies-on-demand—which includes streamed, downloaded and download-to-burn versions. (Many researchers veer away from on-demand porn-on-the-Web, which others grudgingly acknowledge as a major component in today’s usage figures.)

Hence, the obfuscated world of online video ranges from user-generated shorts to Hollywood spectaculars to who-knows-what.

One of the most perceptive visions about the future of Internet TV comes from BlackArrow, a start-up company that is trying to help advertisers and networks function in the on-demand environment. Among its analyses of the challenges facing media is a simple focus on how much video Americans will consume in the immediate future (see Fig. 1).

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0070/images/t.8592_i.01_gary.jpg

Fig. 1: Media usage estimates for 2008-2009 advertising. Data is based on May 2008 annualized U.S. person hours of media usage. BlackArrow Inc., the source for this information, estimates its data on internal DVR/VOD deployment estimates and publicly reported data from Nielsen Media, Nielsen NetRatings, Comcast and comScore.

Its findings conclude that by the 2008-09 TV season, U.S. households will watch 376 billion hours of linear TV, which does not include the DVR usage (encompassing both time-shifting and nearly real-time viewing with ad-skipping). All those billions of hours of linear TV will add up to 9 percent fewer hours than Americans watched last year, according to BlackArrow. That is a remarkable drop for such a huge quantity over a two-year span.

More significantly, the hours spent watching online video will nearly triple during the period: from 2.9 billion hours to 8 billion hours. A similar tripling will take place in “conventional” video-on-demand viewing via cable and similar delivery systems. All of this is unfurling as overall media consumption expands: For example, Americans will spend about 50 percent more time on the Internet, not including their online video usage, during the next few years, the BlackArrow data suggest.

CANNIBALIZATION COSTS

While studios scuffle about rights management and protection issues, and as carriers (especially cable TV operators) mull the impact of online viewing versus their linear carriage contracts, viewers are opting to pick what they want to see on whichever delivery platform works best for their current needs.

Admittedly, suppliers have reason to fret about cannibalizing themselves—whether it is studios and TV networks worried about how to monetize content on the new systems or cable and telco TV operators facing new negotiations with their program suppliers. But, as cable TV insider Steve Effros recently pointed out, TV networks have already identified that they can exploit their Internet video offerings to drive viewers back to the linear delivery systems.

For now.

Of greater long-term significance are the questions of how content will be produced. Coinciding as it does with the broadcast digital TV transition, the explosion of online video creates opportunities and challenges.

On the plus side, more content is available for multicasting and on-demand delivery—both potential avenues for new revenue. Admittedly, this cornucopia of content also means greater competition for viewer attention and a search for ways to monetize the content.

In the “unknown” sector is the question of whether online video will encourage or impede HDTV usage. Some HD content may simply not be ready for—or appropriate for—online distribution, if only because of the bandwidth constrictions of near-term online delivery systems. For example, the DOCSIS 3.0 system that Comcast and other cable operators have embraced (with speeds up to 160 Mbps) is several years away from widespread deployment. The cable companies have reason to slow that pace to limit the impact on their linear subscription revenue.

In its online video outlook, eMarketer observes that suppliers are toying with business models, including ad-supported streaming and pay-to-own services. The New Millennium Research Council encourages urgent attention to telecom network upgrades to handle future traffic levels of “real-time TV-quality video” to throngs of simultaneous users.

The confluence of consumers’ appetites for online video and supplier capabilities offers a great new opportunity for creators, advertisers, technology suppliers (production and reception as well as carriage) and delivery providers.

But the timing is a lot sooner than many people expected.

Gary Arlen is president of Arlen Communications Inc., a Bethesda, Md. research firm that has tracked the convergence, emergence and divergence of media technology since the days of two-inch videotape.

mikemorel

09-23-07, 07:59 PM

Also from TV Technology:

Can the Internet Handle Broadcast TV? (http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0089/t.7138.html#)

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0089/images/t.7138_i.01_internetbroadcasting.jpg

water1

09-23-07, 09:29 PM

Odd.

The next thing to try would be ripping some audio to WMA Pro, and trying to play that back.

I did some more testing as suggested. I used two XBox 360's. My son's is a recent replacement from MS. I downloaded some WMA 5.1 music by Karnis and some WMV clips from Microsofts demo page. I first played them using my computer and WMP11, they were recognised as WMA Pro by the Pioneer Elite receiver.
I then accessed the same video and audio files using the XBox360's. I made sure the blade menu on both was set to output DD & WMA Pro. The Pioneer receiver would only recognise DD output.
Sure wish I could output the WMA Pro for video downloads because I believe it is superior based on the success with HD DVD's.

nded

09-30-07, 09:33 AM

Zassk

10-10-07, 03:52 AM

XBLM keeps rolling... adding 20 more Disney titles plus other stuff this week.

New Shows Coming to Xbox LIVE Marketplace in US

There's a plethora, maybe even two plethoras, of shows coming to Xbox LIVE Video Marketplace in the U.S. this week.

We have plenty for the family to watch, including twenty Disney titles coming this week--movies like Pocahontas, The Sword in the Stone, Treasure Planet, and Trixie's favorite The Black Cauldron. I know my kids loved The Adventures of Sharkboy and Lavagirl and Chronicles of Narnia. And don't tell my wife, but my kids also loved Snoop Dogg's Hood of Horror, especially my 5 year old girl (I'm kidding! I'm kidding!). Tony's really looking forward to The Wiggles: Getting Strong, but not for his kids--he's a big Wiggles fan himself. I think we'll see him in his "Yellow Wiggle" costume around Halloween again this year.

There are some great movies to watch after the kids are in bed, like The Village, Flightplan, Blades of Glory, Under the Tuscan Sun, Casanova, The Cell, Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, and a bunch more.

If you need to catch up on your TV watching, you can download episodes of Exes and Ohs, America's Most Smartest Model, Mega Disasters, Digging for the Truth, I Love New York Season 2, and Shot of Love with Tila Tequila.

I was bummed that I missed a few of the pilot episodes in the past few weeks, and I was glad to see that I could download some of the ones I missed, like Big Bang Theory, Kid Nation and Chuck. Pretty cool!

Check out Xbox.com for more information.

source (http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archive/2007/10/09/553827.aspx)

jagouar

10-10-07, 09:44 AM

They also put up ~10 disney flicks last week (most in HD). But Ive resisted getting any of them because lack of 5.1 audio. Wonder if any of these will have proper audio? (disney ones... pretty much everything else already has 5.1).

Too many of these movies are SD only imo.... lord of the rings especially.

EDIT: Major Nelson posted the complete list...

Homie Spumoni
The Wiggles: Getting Strong
The Adventures of Sharkboy and Lavagirl (HD)
Aliens of the Deep (IMAX) (HD)
The Black Cauldron
The Black Hole (HD)
Flightplan (HD)
Hero (HD)
The Importance of Being Earnest
King Arthur (HD)
Oliver & Company
Pocahontas (HD)
The Rich Man's Wife
The Sixth Man
The Sword in the Stone
Three Musketeers (HD)
Treasure Planet (HD)
Under the Tuscan Sun
The Village (HD)
Casanova
Shakespeare in Love
11:14
8 Seconds
A History of Violence
AllAbout the Benjamins
Birth
Blade 2: Bloodhunt
Blast from the Past
The Cell
Chained Heat 2
Damage
Don Juan DeMarco
Eat the Rich
The Grass Harp
Happy Campers
Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring
Love and Basketball
Rush Hour 2
Talkin Dirty After Dark
Widow's Peak
Away From Her
Snoop Dogg's Hood of Horror
Blades of Glory (HD)
Kickin it Old Skool (HD)
Even Money
Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, Witch, & the Wardrobe (HD)

This is pretty impressive for one week.... I bet disney is cleaning up with the marketplace because they have been supporting the marketplace very well even with the 2.0 audio flaws. and many of these flicks are from disney as were the 15 or so movies posted last week.

mikemorel

10-16-07, 12:42 PM

From the Financial Times:

Sony steers PS3 towards music and films (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9b01c66c-7b3b-11dc-8c53-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1)

By Neil Buckley in Moscow and Mariko Sanchanta in Tokyo
Published: October 15 2007 18:52 | Last updated: October 15 2007 18:52

Sony is working on plans to distribute video and music via the PlayStation Network, its online games system, in a significant step in transforming the PlayStation 3 games console into a multimedia device capable of networking with other Sony hardware.

Expanding the network to offer downloadable entertainment such as films and television episodes would also compete more directly with Microsoft’s rival Xbox Live service.

“We are building a software infrastructure to distribute video and music, more particularly video, through the PlayStation Network,” said Sir Howard Stringer, Sony chief executive, during an interview in Moscow. “That is a Japanese and American combined effort to build a platform around a common software architecture to distribute video via the PlayStation network into the [PSP handhelds] and beyond.”

“We are trying to get our devices to talk to each other efficiently. PlayStation Network should migrate from gadget to gadget. But initially it starts with PlayStation devices and then to TV and beyond. That’s the goal,” Sir Howard added.

He gave no timescale for the service, but said: “We won't know how effective [the effort] is until early next year.”

Sony has unveiled a device allowing the PS3 to act as a digital TV tuner and recorder, and software enabling PSP handheld users to make video and voice calls, but these applications can only be used in the UK and some European markets.

PlayStation Network is a bid by Sony to further ignite demand for its poor-selling PS3 console, which has been overtaken by Nintendo’s Wii in global sales.
...
For those BD supporters who think that MS is pushing consumers towards downloads...See what Sony is doing?

Zassk

10-16-07, 01:23 PM

There's a key difference between the two, though, isn't there? Sony only wants you to buy Sony music and movies online.

A Sony download service will never be as comprehensive as XBLM. Or at least, I can't imagine a scenario in which it would be.

douglu

10-17-07, 09:46 AM

Her's some news on some new technolgy announced today Qflix. Not sure if this is a plus or minus for downloading but it seems to have approval from drive manufacturers, media manufacturers, studios and the DVD Forum.

http://dvd.consumerelectronicsnet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=188721

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/138462

Interesting that they are already thinking about extending this to HD/DVD and Blu-Ray.

georgeorwell

10-19-07, 10:21 AM

If anybody is interested in learning more about the Vudu, there is a public forum on the website at http://forum.vudu.com . This box will deliver HD content to your TV's. I've been beta testing this toy for 8 months now, and it's convinced me to not purchase an HD capable DVD player and to stay out of the format wars.

I just read a review the other day that summed up the service as nice technology, but lacking content. I just looked at the site...is it me, or are they offering more HD new releases than anyone else?

Edit: As I look further, I don't think all of those are in HD.

annoyedbyspam

10-20-07, 07:06 PM

I just read a review the other day that summed up the service as nice technology, but lacking content. I just looked at the site...is it me, or are they offering more HD new releases than anyone else?

Edit: As I look further, I don't think all of those are in HD.

None of the Vudu movies are HD yet. Sounds like they are still working out the licensing. Who knew the studios licensed HD versions differently than SD versions. If this is true, I have another reason to hate Hollywood.

nded

10-21-07, 07:36 AM

None of the HD titles on the Vudu have been released to the public yet. When we have had access to HD titles on the Vudu Beta site there were 2 versions of the same movie, with 2 pricing tiers, one for HD and one for SD.

It may interest some of you to know that the SD titles on the Vudu are noticeably better looking than their DVD counterparts, as the Vudu uses H.264 compression, instead of MPEG-2. This remastering is delivering some phenomonal output. For example, when they released the '300' on the Vudu in SD it looks so great that we (the beta testers) can't imagine how an HD version could look any better. The bottom line is that SD titles on the Vudu will often look better than a DVD copy because they aren't forced to use an older and somewhat out of date video format.

jagouar

10-23-07, 01:53 AM

MS put out a press release with new HD content for their marketplace...

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/23/xbox-live-marketplace-adding-looney-tunes-for-your-hdtv/

will be interesting to see how many shows/episodes this will entail and how long term it is.... i think it would be cool to see more stuff like this remastered for HD.

mikemorel

10-27-07, 05:42 PM

Rumor: Leaked screens show IPTV and Fall update (http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2007/10/26/rumor-leaked-screens-show-iptv-and-fall-update/)

The two four screenshots you see in the gallery below were sent to us by tipster Aaron, who says that he turned on his Xbox 360 today and noticed a new TV icon with four text squares in his media blade and was wondering if we knew what it was all about. We investigated and noticed that this new TV icon option wasn't normal and replaced the "Video Marketplace" option that we see on our dash. The second thing we noticed was that, when hovered over, the description for the mysterious TV icon option reads:

Use television services.
Live & recorded TV
On-demand movies
Chat while watching TV

Sounds like IPTV options to us. Once clicked, an error message pops up stating that it was "unable to start" and to contact support at www.microsoft.com/tv. That URL will take you to Microsoft's Mediaroom website ... also interesting. So, if everything is legit in these pictures and Aaron doesn't end up being a Photoshop God, we're going speculate that this random occurrence is related somehow to the Fall update.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.xbox360fanboy.com/media/2007/10/leakyiptvmicrosoftfall4.jpg

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.xbox360fanboy.com/media/2007/10/leakyiptvmicrosoftfall1.jpg

mikemorel

10-30-07, 12:31 PM

Microsoft: Xbox 360 IPTV still coming...eventually (http://uk.gamespot.com/news/6181944.html?action=convert&om_clk=latestnews&tag=latestnews;title;1)

The Xbox 360 fall update is just around the corner, and speculation is rife about what features it will introduce. Among the more talked-about-but-still-unconfirmed features is a tool which would allow parents to limit the amount of time their children can play. Another rumor claimed the fall update would finally give the 360s the IPTV functionality Microsoft promised it would have back in January at the Consumer Electronics Show.

Today, Microsoft confirmed one feature would not be included in the fall update. Following the discovery of some IPTV functionalities in a recently serviced 360 by self-explanatory site Xbox 360 Fanboy, Microsoft said the functionality would be excluded from its console's looming firmware update.

"This was an isolated incident where these features were inadvertently exposed while the customer's console was being serviced and is unrelated to the fall update," the company said in a statement e-mailed to GameSpot.

Microsoft did not comment on the specific functionalities unveiled in the leak, which included on-screen chat while viewing live TV, recorded television, and on-demand movies. However, Microsoft did confirm that the 360's IPTV functionality will be a version of its Microsoft Mediaroom software, which was unveiled in June.
...

tommcjr

11-11-07, 10:37 PM

I just downloaded my 1st dts-hd master audio in 1080p(x264) from UseNext....u need to be an astrophysicist to figure it out, but I just played it (on Media Player Classic) and it's unbelievable.

markrubin

11-15-07, 08:28 AM

Vudu adds high-def downloads

NOV. 15 | Vudu said today it will add high-definition titles to its movie download service, which connects to households through a set-top box.

The high-def titles will be available during the home video and pay per view windows.

So far, Universal Studios, Paramount Pictures and Lionsgate are the first to offer titles in high-def through Vudu, which sells the set-top box for $399. Users do not pay a subscription fee, but are charged per title. Rentals run between about $1 and $4 and purchases between $5 and $20.
http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6501304.html

mikemorel

11-16-07, 05:54 PM

OPINION: High-def tortoise and the hare (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6501970.html)

NOV. 16 | ONE WEEK after Sony Corp. chairman and CEO Howard Stringer declared the format war between Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD at “a stalemate,” IP set-top box maker Vudu announced it was adding high-def movies from Universal, Paramount and Lionsgate to its movie download service.

The timing of the two announcements, though coincidental, was fitting.

While the two warring hardware camps lurch through another inconclusive fourth-quarter, keeping befuddled consumers on the sidelines, high-definition video is starting to find its way onto the Internet as technology providers begin to piece together the necessary infrastructure.

Late last month, Akamai Technologies, a leading content distribution network service, announced the beta launch of The HDWeb, a “proof-of-concept” portal that showcases high-def content from the BBC, CBS, Gannett, MTV Networks, the NBA and others.

“Akamai's goal is to provide high-bandwidth consumers with a superior online [high-def] experience and highlight the content providers that are pushing the industry forward,” the company said in a press release.

The Akamai announcement came one week after Limelight Networks, another CDN provider, announced LimelightHD, a new service for delivering high-def media over the Internet.

Among Limelight’s first high-def customers are Brightcove, Fox Interactive Media and MSN Video.

Last week, Intel upped the ante further, introducing a new family of microprocessors it says will speed the availability of high-def video over the Internet.

The new chips, dubbed Penryn, contain 16 separate processors and are based on 45 nanometer technology.

In addition to packing more transistors onto the chip—up to 820 million, according to Intel—the company added a set of instructions meant to improve video compression.

The new chips will make it possible to develop a new generation of servers capable of handling higher video compression ratios than currently possible.

“Its biggest impact is high-definition video,” Intel’s chief sales and marketing officer Sean Maloney told The New York Times. “It will be highly addictive.”

HIGH-DEF VIDEO over the Internet still has a long way to go before it’s competitive with optical discs. Bandwidth is still a significant constraint.

“The typical [high-def] object will have at least three times to five times the bits as a standard video object, and it’s more expensive to move big files around than small files,” Limelight chief technology officer Mike Gordon said. High-def also “raises the stakes” in terms of consumer expectations. “Their idea of [high-def] is what they see on their HDTV set, so that’s the level of quality they expect.,” he said. “That puts even more pressure on the delivery network to minimize latency, packet loss and anything else that can affect video quality for the end user.”

Gordon doesn’t expect high-def content to be a significant factor for video over the Internet in this year or next. But he said Limelight and its competitors, along with their content partners, are anxious to start figuring it out now so that the delivery infrastructure is in place when greater bandwidth becomes available.

At $399, sales of Vudu set-tops remain tiny. The only other significant source of high-def video over the Web is Microsoft’s Xbox Live service.

But some amount of high-def video delivery over the Internet is inevitable. The purpose of developing a high-def DVD format, for content owners, was—or should have been—to preserve a viable and competitive optical disc format that could sustain the same sort of high margins as earlier forms of packaged media.

The longer the Blu-ray/HD DVD format war drags on, the more time and space the packaged-media business is leaving for high-def delivery to find other routes and for business models and consumer behavior to coalesce around alternatives to optical discs.

Technology providers seem to be using that time productively.

Lee Stewart

01-12-08, 11:00 AM

With all the announcements at CES - time to bring this thread back to life.

Three major announcements at CES from:

1. Comcast
2. Xtreme HD
3. The New Porn Download Service.:p

chad_cincy

01-12-08, 12:26 PM

Also, VideoGiants.

And while not a new service, Vudu announced a 1TB STB and 70 new HD movies.

jagouar

01-12-08, 02:27 PM

dont forget the xbox live additions...

Disney/ABC TV shows and MGM movies. the MGM part is quite impressive imo considering sony has a stake in them...

markrubin

01-12-08, 02:31 PM

sticky

Dahlsim

01-12-08, 03:18 PM

Lee Stewart

01-12-08, 03:47 PM

Advantages here go to anyone that already has the settop box in the living room for other reasons.
Trojan Horse effect, just like the PS3 effect for blu-ray.

Game consoles and cable/sattelite providers have the boxes already in place.

Lions share of the HD market also

So we counted 5 new download delivery systems . . .

Everyone happy with all the announcements that came out of CES? (as far as equipment - ignoring the pre CES WB announcement):p

chipvideo

01-12-08, 04:04 PM

Some big company needs to buy tivo. I think its pretty cool that I can transfer my non copyprotected hd movies between my units.

I have 6meg connection so I could download a hd file pretty fast over the net.

I want all hd content from all sources.

Richard Paul

01-12-08, 04:06 PM

Just curious but how many of the new download services announced at CES would allow you to continue to watch movies even after the service ends? For instance if you bought a movie from one of them and service ended how many of them would allow you to watch the movie 10 years from now?

Dahlsim

01-12-08, 04:07 PM

Lions share of the HD market also

So we counted 5 new download delivery systems . . .

Everyone happy with all the announcements that came out of CES? (as far as equipment - ignoring the pre CES WB announcement):p

Care to summarize what the main announcements were in relation to Video Download Services?

Lee Stewart

01-12-08, 04:13 PM

Lee Stewart

01-12-08, 04:14 PM

Care to summarize what the main announcements were in relation to Video Download Services?

All the stories on the 5 newly announced services (with the possible exception of Vudu) are located at this link. Gizmodo's coverage of CES:

http://gizmodo.com/tag/ces-2008/

Richard Paul

01-12-08, 04:32 PM

Who owns the box in your house? You or the company providing the service?Well assuming I bought the box I would own it but that really doesn't answer those questions since a service may require periodic license verifications for the downloaded content.

Lee Stewart

01-12-08, 06:46 PM

Well assuming I bought the box I would own it but that really doesn't answer those questions since a service may require periodic license verifications for the downloaded content.

Well don't beat around the bush - come out and say what is on your mind.:D

WayneL

01-12-08, 07:16 PM

Oh good. The next format battle.

Will we see Sony opposing download DRM to maintain a monopoly on solidware movie distribution?

Can I get my HD movies at a lower cost by eliminating BB, and never be concerned they haven't stocked it?

Steverhcp02

01-12-08, 07:31 PM

well, we have seen downloadable music, even illegally be more consumer friendly and take off significantly faster than would even be possible for downloadable video, let alone HD video......thus, the best we can hope for realistically is a nice supplemental type of service to go with our regular retail movies. best buy, CC, wal mart all carry the same amount of CD's as ever even with downloadable music skyrocketing for the last 4 years.....id hardly consider exponentially larger files and a less user friendly way (portable mps player) to view said large files given retail HDM or even just regular DVD much of a fight seeing as how there is NO WAY the means to access, download an dview the files are even remotely close to the ease of use of music is even possible withing the next 3 years on a large scale.

Its a pipedream to put this in the same thought of retail media given the variables and the actual proof through the EASILY more user friendly music downloads not really altering how CD's are sold in the large scale. Just my opinion i guess, but i fail to see how anyone sees differently on the matter to be honest.

Lee Stewart

01-12-08, 08:16 PM

crackinhedz

01-12-08, 08:43 PM

...But wait, I thought HD-DVD wasnt dead yet...why are you guys pushing digital downloads all of a sudden??

720p (if that) and an hour to download?

yeah, sounds totally fun. :rolleyes:

Dahlsim

01-12-08, 09:00 PM

All the stories on the 5 newly announced services (with the possible exception of Vudu) are located at this link. Gizmodo's coverage of CES:

http://gizmodo.com/tag/ces-2008/

Thanks. From what I saw, seems like it's mostly about purchasing new boxes to get the download services which I imagine will be a tough sell compared to console makers and cable/sattelite services that can work wiith the boxes they already have in place.

I'd be interested in service plans from XBLM, PSN and FiOS since I have those boxes.

JackBee

01-12-08, 09:06 PM

Dahlsim

01-12-08, 09:11 PM

JackBee

01-12-08, 09:22 PM

Sony's system allows you move videos around from PS3 to PS3 freely for what I believe is up to 5 times. I like that better but perhaps MS has a system that content owners like better since they do have a lot more content than Sony who hasn't really even launched a movie service yet.

I imagine MS rules have to make the content owners happy but I hear that you can contact Xbox support and get your content authorized for new box...

I never mentioned Sony or the PS3 in my post. Why even bring them up?

I tried calling Microsoft, they refused to authorize my PAID content to my 360 i own now. Flat out refused. Spoke to a manager who said they cannot do it for me. That is some excellent customer service. Fat chance i ever purchase another XBL Arcade Game. And i own 15 of them. Well, semi-own, since if im not online, ALL THE GAMES BECOME TRIAL GAMES! Awesome. DRM that really screws you so hard, and its not even close how bad it is going to get.

TimHuey

01-12-08, 09:26 PM

VONGO article (http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1158124,00.html)

Vongo (http://www.vongo.com/?cam=direct&tac=search&grp=GGL10&keyword=movielink&gclid=CPCmtOHspY0CFSQYZAodaTDj0A)

Movielink (http://www.movielink.com/store/web/home/home.jsp?_requestid=713528)

Cinemanow (http://www.cinemanow.com/?affid=830)

WalMart (http://mediadownloads.walmart.com/mmce/jsp/storeHome.jsp;jsessionid=GYlc8h8XMLxsyvvz0zXCWMgyYnZrTFTvFkq qrx436w7nn8fQFQxD!-1252229034)

I took a look at all the above links but couldn't find any online rental HD movies. I have a 10mb pipe and would like to find a service that offers OnDemand or buffered HD viewing on the PC. Did I misread the posts or is there not a service out there for this yet?

Dahlsim

01-12-08, 09:30 PM

I never mentioned Sony or the PS3 in my post. Why even bring them up?

I just brought them up as a reference point for different way that a company can handle movement of protected content. I also wanted to suggest why MS may handle theirs the way they do, to satisfy their content partners.

I tried calling Microsoft, they refused to authorize my PAID content to my 360 i own now. Flat out refused. Spoke to a manager who said they cannot do it for me.

That is some excellent customer service. Fat chance i ever purchase another XBL Arcade Game. And i own 15 of them. Well, semi-own, since if im not online, ALL THE GAMES BECOME TRIAL GAMES! Awesome. DRM that really screws you so hard, and its not even close how bad it is going to get.

Wow. That seems unreasonable. If you have paid for a piece of content and your original machine craps out (which may in fact be MS's fault) then logic would say they have find a way to authorize your content or refund you.

I own quite a bit of content from XBLM myself. That's something worth looking into...

_Noah_

01-12-08, 09:40 PM

I haven't read all 200 posts of this thread yet so bear with me if i'm repeating some other ideas. Im not to sure yet on the whole HD download service yet but, I don't think the technology is going to be there for atleast 5-7 years. I would like to see a service similar to Comcasts On-Demand but purchasing the movie not just renting it. The key difference being that Comcast could keep their thousands of movies on one central server/HDD, and once you purchase the movie from them you would have access to it whenever you wanted by way of an IP address or sim card type of device. That's probably the only realistic way that a consumer could have access to movie collections the size some people on this site have. It would cost a fortune to have enough HDD space for every movie I own and will buy in the future.

ehaser

01-13-08, 12:25 AM

griffon2k

01-13-08, 01:38 AM

I never mentioned Sony or the PS3 in my post. Why even bring them up?

I tried calling Microsoft, they refused to authorize my PAID content to my 360 i own now. Flat out refused. Spoke to a manager who said they cannot do it for me. That is some excellent customer service. Fat chance i ever purchase another XBL Arcade Game. And i own 15 of them. Well, semi-own, since if im not online, ALL THE GAMES BECOME TRIAL GAMES! Awesome. DRM that really screws you so hard, and its not even close how bad it is going to get.

Your experience is definetly not typical since the way Live works is once you've purchased a video once under your Gamertag you can download it again for free under the same gamertag. I've done it between my two 20GB hard drives a couple times now since I was trying to decide which one I wanted to save demos too and which I wanted to save XBLA games.

Something is definetely amiss with the experience you've had.

RROSEN

01-13-08, 02:15 AM

Here is an idea for those thinking of video downloads.

Separate the service or provider from the users license for the content.

By doing that, I am able to leave provider X and go to provider Y with my licenses and in effect change services without any risk of losing what I already paid for.

Would also eliminate any hesitancy folks may have if they are worried about their provider surviving long enough for it to actually seem like owning the content rather than an expensive short term rental ;-).

In effect you buy the license to view the movie from the studio either directly or through the provider, but in effect your contract is with the studio so no matter what they know you own it and anywhere that its available you have the rights to it.

You then pay the provider for... Well... for providing the service. If you buy your own box or use an HTPC with licensed player then you can download from the studio. Some who want large media servers may opt for them and maybe the studios charge a download fee after the first or second as the actually storage and convenience of "hosting" your movies would be something that the Service Providers would do and what their value add is for Joe Everybody.

In any case, from what I am seeing as the most common issue/concern/worry about this is the loss of your content or access to it. Having the ownership contract for the movies licence or DRM be between the consumer and the studio eliminates this barrier to adoption.

There could even be a central body that manages all that for the studios and providers. Like a wholesale distributor works between retail and the manufacturers in many industries. This way not every provider needs to manage relationships with every studio etc.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Cheers,

Richard

PS. Reading on another thread how some guy wrote about the BR / HD DVD war and the coming evolution of Downloads which partly lead me to start reading this thread and these ideas. One thing for sure is that I don't see it taking off in HD if the content is compressed enough to get 16 HiDef movies on a 32GB drive lol. Hopefully that's a typo.

Cheers,

Richard

ChrisW6ATV

01-13-08, 03:10 AM

The only video downloads I would be interested in paying for would be burnable ISO files or equivalents of HD movies, with quality identical to HD DVD or Blu-ray releases. (It would be OK if the burned disc had full AACS or whatever.) These downloads would need to be discounted in comparison to street prices of the retail discs by at least the cost of the media and box I would have to provide. Obviously, such downloads are years away from being available, if ever.

dildatonr

01-13-08, 08:47 AM

Your experience is definetly not typical since the way Live works is once you've purchased a video once under your Gamertag you can download it again for free under the same gamertag. I've done it between my two 20GB hard drives a couple times now since I was trying to decide which one I wanted to save demos too and which I wanted to save XBLA games.

Something is definetely amiss with the experience you've had.

+1

I would call again (for the first time;))

aaronwt

01-13-08, 10:09 AM

I took my Xbox 360 to my brothers house last night so we could play Guitar Hero. After we finished playing, i told him i had the HD Version of a South Park episode on the hard drive, if he wanted to see it. He was very excited to see it, so i scroll through the 360 and i find the video, click on play and... Get an error code. Refused to play. Tried everything, same thing. Guess what? Since i downloaded it the first time using my old Xbox 360 which is now dead and has been replaced by microsoft, the VIDEO i have is now tied to that 360 that is long gone, and without being ONLINE, it refused to play the video.

So, because of DRM so insanely horrible, i could not watch a movie that was already on my hard drive. You guys are in for a SHOCK if you think you can own a real collection of Digitally Downloaded movies and do what you want with them. DRM on these makes BD+ look like the Easter Bunny.

With the 360 as long as you are logged in with the Gamertag( I have two Gamertags I use, one gold and one Silver) you downloaded the item with you can view it. I have four Xbox 360's. I have TV shows I downloaded when they first started the download service. When I got my last 360, in November, all I had to do was log into Xbox live with the Gamertag I used when I downloaded the show. Then I was able to download it again. This is the way it works with Xbox Live which is excellent. I have had no problems doing it this way.
It's just a simple matter of plugging in an Ethernet cable or using the wireless access and you can log into Xbox Live. This system works out very well for me in my usage of the systems I own.

Now of course if you go somewhere without INterent access you would have a problem, but I can't say I've been anywhere without access. The closeest I came was when we went to a resort in Williamsburg, VA at Christmas. They didn't have wireless access throughout the whole complex but luckily I was just able to access the wireless at sub 50K speeds(basically dialup speeds) because I was so far away from the closest access point. But that was enough to log into Xbox Live to be able to play the content that I had on the box.

ehaser

01-13-08, 10:20 AM

With the 360 as long as you are logged in with the Gamertag( I have two Gamertags I use, one gold and one Silver) you downloaded the item with you can view it. I have four Xbox 360's. I have TV shows I downloaded when they first started the download service. When I got my last 360, in November, all I had to do was log into Xbox live with the Gamertag I used when I downloaded the show. Then I was able to download it again. This is the way it works with Xbox Live which is excellent. I have had no problems doing it this way.
It's just a simple matter of plugging in an Ethernet cable or using the wireless access and you can log into Xbox Live. This system works out very well for me in my usage of the systems I own.

Now of course if you go somewhere without INterent access you would have a problem, but I can't say I've been anywhere without access. The closeest I came was when we went to a resort in Williamsburg, VA at Christmas. They didn't have wireless access throughout the whole complex but luckily I was just able to access the wireless at sub 50K speeds(basically dialup speeds) because I was so far away from the closest access point. But that was enough to log into Xbox Live to be able to play the content that I had on the box.

Oh I can see where this is going.

My buddy "Hey! I heard you just downloaded the new action flick awesomeness!"
Me "Yeah, it was sweet to watch."
My buddy "Cool, why don't you pack up your XBOX and bring it to my place so I can watch it?"
My buddy "Oh btw give my you user name and password. ;)"

aaronwt

01-13-08, 10:46 AM

Oh I can see where this is going.

My buddy "Hey! I heard you just downloaded the new action flick awesomeness!"
Me "Yeah, it was sweet to watch."
My buddy "Cool, why don't you pack up your XBOX and bring it to my place so I can watch it?"
My buddy "Oh btw give my you user name and password. ;)"

That's what the Memory units are for. My Gamertags are only on the MUs. That way I can move them from 360 to 360 as I need it. I don't keep them locally on the box.
I also have a 360 I use for travel. It's in one of those hard breifcases and has room for everything(even the power brick) inside including some game discs and a couple of contollers. It's padded inside to portect everything and has worked very well.
It's called the "Xbox 360 Pro Gamers Case" by Intec.

Also you can't just enter a password to access your gamertag. The Gamertag has more to it than just a password which is why it's located on an MU or a hard drive. You can recover it but If you recover it they require some more info. Plus if you start recovering it at multiple locations they will suspend your account becasue they will know what you are doing.

indigo80

01-13-08, 12:00 PM

Tried xbox live over christmas, refused to let me play anything "incompatible device" error, apart from the risky business trailer (which i guess was cached from when i played around with the service a few weeks earlier)

At least with a disc you're guaranteed (apart from a tiny percentage of bad discs) to be able to watch when you want when you want and are not dependant on how many other people want to watch at the same time as you or if an engineer put his donut down on the wrong switch

i'll maybe try again in a few years when all the problems are ironed out and you're not going to lose money and spend hours arguing with india about whether the 10 minutes of film you did manage to watch before the service died counts as a complete watch or not

JackBee

01-13-08, 12:02 PM

Why should i be forced to have a internet connection at all locations to use the content I PAID FOR? My brother moved into a new place and didnt have internet, so i was LOCKED OUT of my PAID content due to that. That is DRM to the 100th power, yet so many here are ok with it.

Dahlsim

01-13-08, 01:21 PM

That's what the Memory units are for. My Gamertags are only on the MUs. That way I can move them from 360 to 360 as I need it. I don't keep them locally on the box.

I use the MU to keep my profiles as well since I have 3 360s and sometimes work with other 360s. Now that I've looked in this a bit I see that using a Memory Unit is one reason I haven't run into as many problems.

I thought this worth looking into a bit since I haven't thought much about the cotent usage on XBLM. I inquired with a few of my gaming industry sources a bit to clarify and I was pointed to read the "Media Usage Rights" that is attached to the video purchases when you browse thru you content list on the 360. (some of the free "does not expire" content doesn't display the license entry and can be viewed any time)

Video Purchase

You are granted a limited, non-transferable, non-commercial license to view and privately display this content solely via your Xbox 360 console as provided herein and more fully described in the Xbox Live Terms of Use. You may download this content only on your initiating Xbox 360 console and view the content only via such console or via a "roaming" Xbox 360 console in accordance with the Xbox Live Terms of Use.

I was also directed to check out the Xbox Live Terms of Use (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/legal/legal-tou.htm).

Who reads those licenses? (doh!)

JackBee, I notice that you said you used your harddrive on your brother's 360. Something you may want to try is moving your profile to a memory unit and then you can re-download again from accounts history list to another Xbox.

From what I'm told when you use a memory unit on a different console you are then establishing the roaming Xbox 360 console. Now you should have the right to download any content you purchased under the xbox live retained rights concept. I believe this is content is that you "own" so to speak such as television shows. For movies you are under a strict rental model license.

But then that still leaves the other issue which is the fact that content usage requires a connection to Xbox Live. As I understand you do not have to be actually logged in to Xbox live on the original console that you download on but the console needs to be connected and able to reach the service. All any other consoles you download to you have to be logged in to view the content.

So this is XBLM version of "space shifting". If you use the "roaming console" model you can spaceshift your content as much as you want by redownloading and logging in.

Recently the online requirement has lead to this little issue with a lawsuit:

Microsoft sued over Xbox outage (http://www.news.com/8301-13860_3-9840766-56.html?tag=tb)

The suit, filed in U.S. District Court in Houston, claims Microsoft's outages represent a breach of contract and negligent misrepresentation for which the software maker is liable. The suit doesn't claim specific damages, but notes the amount is in excess of $5 million

Downloadable content and the ownership model still apparently have a few brdiges to cross. If the service is down then what is the liability? Then if they did not have the internet connection requirement or decided one day to relax that requirement they would probably be in violation of agreements with the original content holders who rely on the license enforcement.

No doubt requiring an internet connection for a license check makes content providers happy but for users it definitely a loooong way from the convenience and reliability being able to walk over to your shelf and pick up a shiny disk. :)

Packaged media is going to be around a long time yet I'd wager.