Seems like just about every topic possible was covered, including rumble in Sixaxis controllers (supposedly coming soon), but I didn't see any mention of anybody asking any Sony official about the scaling issue for people with 1080i/480p only HDTV's. I'm thinking with these new models coming in August and probably early 08, maybe they will take care of this issue as well. I haven't searched all over the web for this, but I was wondering if anybody else saw a quote anywhere in regards to this. Too bad that Kotaku guy didn't ask somebody about it.

What scaling issues are you reffering to?

What scaling issues are you reffering to?
The lack there of. Mostly scaling of 720p only games to 1080i for those of us with HDTV's that do not accept a 720p signal.

I didn't hear anything. I also didn't hear anything about DTS HD Master audio or any firmware updates actually.

There was a update that enabled the PS3 to scale a while back and from what Ive read its quite capable now, Something other than this?

There was a update that enabled the PS3 to scale a while back and from what Ive read its quite capable now, Something other than this?


That scaling was for Ps2 games the scaling/DVD scaling. But ps3 games is still not fixed for us 1080i only HDTV owners which sort sucks that 720p games are downscaled to 480p ... which most games are 720p. They just could start making all games 1080p then there would be no issue...

1080i scaling is available for support by developers.

... developers can be quite lazy cretins, but 480p/1080i TVs are also quite the minority.

Extreme minority. That said, developers can support it if they wish. Not many see the need so far, which is unfortunate for those who have to deal with the problem. If serious about gaming this gen, you guys should consider getting a modern HDTV and sell what you have while it is worth something.

Yep. Developers can do it if they like- most Sega games support it.

Extreme minority. That said, developers can support it if they wish. Not many see the need so far, which is unfortunate for those who have to deal with the problem. If serious about gaming this gen, you guys should consider getting a modern HDTV and sell what you have while it is worth something.

Before 2004 it was the at least 1/2 (likely increasing significantly each year you go back) and really when it came to high end video, pretty much 100% as through that year pioneer and Mitsubishi lines across the board and hitachi which only barely qualified by doing the 540p thing - these were unequivocally the tier 1 display manufacturers outside 36" and below direct view). These displays all assumed that any scaling would be handled at the external device level whether that be tuner (internal tuners would scale) or whatever. Going into niche high-end and ultra high end, a separate external scaler was certainly assumed to be in the mix. Keep in mind 2004 isn't exactly ancient times or 10+ years ago.

The first issue was Xbox1 which was well known for this failing yet forgivable since it wasn't an HD console and barely chugged some 2nd and 3rd string titles in 720p or above. Sony through poor planning, design, communication or whatever seemed to deliberately step in the same pile of crap assuming it would smell like roses this time. Wrong for several reasons - 1) Most of us paid a good amount for those displays and don't see the need to swap them out simply to satisfy Sony 2) Many of those displays still produce images the are as good or better than what is commercially available today.

When I can buy a significantly better picture than I have now I will upgrade. Until that point Sony will pry my Mits from my cold dead hands. The PS3 is the odd ball out in A/V and console gaming land, not the other way around. There is absolutely no reason for this as it was well known and publicized previous gen. MSFT specifically addressed this, Sony failed or put its dev's in a position to absolutely fail until months after launch and then seemingly bomb afterward on this requiring an oddball resolution for an oddball scaling solution which seems almost totally unutilized (is it laziness for dev's or is it the extra 10-15% resolution that is causing issues).

Ahhh - I feel better now.

PS3 is the odd ball out of A/V and next-gen console gaming? It's widely accepted by many as the best player around for the leading hi-def format, Blu-ray. Gaming wise there are only two next gen machines even available (last gen tech Wii doesn't count in this category). Considering that you have to sell your launch X360 and buy the 'Elite" just to get 1080P via HDMI (the preferred format of 1080P for the majority of HDTVs), it's ludicrous to suggest that there's much of anything out there more prepared for displaying next-gen visuals in full, games and HD movies, than the PS3.

Your situation is sad, but it is the extreme minority. The 50% figure pre-2004 figure you mention doesn't change that fact. Hi-def movie sales have grown tremendously since then. Each year the sales of hi-def 1080P HDTVs is many multiples greater than sales back then. Early 1080P adopters without 720P AND are gamers are nowhere near significant in numbers.

My mom bought a Mits Diamondvision set around 2003/4, so I know about the set. However, it's unfortunate that they came without 720P and that's the danger of being an early adopter of new tech (1080P). Regardless of what you or I think, one thing seems very likely - that the PS3 won't force all titles to display in 720P. There simply isn't enough demand for taking a step back even if it would be cool for people like yourself. I hope it happens, but in the end they seem more focused on current tech and beyond.

PS3 is the odd ball out of A/V and next-gen console gaming? It's widely accepted by many as the best player around for the leading hi-def format, Blu-ray. Gaming wise there are only two next gen machines even available (last gen tech Wii doesn't count in this category). Considering that you have to sell your launch X360 and buy the 'Elite" just to get 1080P via HDMI (the preferred format of 1080P for the majority of HDTVs), it's ludicrous to suggest that there's much of anything out there more prepared for displaying next-gen visuals in full, games and HD movies, than the PS3.



Thought you could do 1080p through DVI with the 360 if your TV accepted it?

I was referring to the majority of 1080P HDTVs. Most of them do 1080P via HDMI.

All I'm asking for, is that for future PS3's, the put a $1 scaling chip inside there. If $99 HDTV tuner boxes can have this chip, then surely the PS3 can. Ok, so they messed up on the current hardware that's out there, and left out a scaling chip that can actually scale resolutions without issues. That doesn't mean it needs to stay this way forever. They could put this whole thing behind them, by putting a chip in a future revision of the PS3. Maybe not the 80 gigger coming out in August, but maybe another revision coming in 2008.

It's sad that those of you with 1080p displays can pretty much care less, and tell us to join you in the future with your fancy schmancy 1080p displays. I say pooey.

POOEY ON YOU!!!!!


lol :D

All I'm asking for, is that for future PS3's, the put a $1 scaling chip inside there. If $99 HDTV tuner boxes can have this chip, then surely the PS3 can. Ok, so they messed up on the current hardware that's out there, and left out a scaling chip that can actually scale resolutions without issues. That doesn't mean it needs to stay this way forever. They could put this whole thing behind them, by putting a chip in a future revision of the PS3. Maybe not the 80 gigger coming out in August, but maybe another revision coming in 2008.

It's sad that those of you with 1080p displays can pretty much care less, and tell us to join you in the future with your fancy schmancy 1080p displays. I say pooey.

POOEY ON YOU!!!!!


lol :D

It not that we dont care less, we are just giving you an honest opinion. My personal preference is actually for the way Sony does it over how MS does it. W/ my PS3, when I play a 720 game, it outputs in 720. When I watch a 1080 movie or play a 1080 game, it outputs in 1080. I HATE how the 360 makes me choose an output setting and everything gets output to that. I dont want to have to worry about switching it every time I want to play a game. I dont want my 720 games outputting to 1080i, then my TV has to deinterlace it and that takes extra time and you get more laggage. I actually prefer the way Sony does it, I prefer content to be output at its rendered resolution.

I think that that is the way HD content should be output, I dont think it should be output to a generic resolution.

I actually prefer the way Sony does it, I prefer content to be output at its rendered resolution.
I would like to have the option. I love the PS3, but a nondedicated scaler from the getgo wasn't a big mistake, it was a stupid mistake. Can't say I'm pleased with playing a bunch of 'HD' games in 480p on my perfectly HD capable 1080i HDTV. And as for it being a minority, it is still a couple million sets out there that could have this problem. Dare I say, more than there are PS3's out in the wild.

My issue with this will be resolved be weeks end as I have ordered a new 1080p tv, but I won't rollover just because it no longer affects me.

All I'm asking for, is that for future PS3's, the put a $1 scaling chip inside there. If $99 HDTV tuner boxes can have this chip, then surely the PS3 can. Ok, so they messed up on the current hardware that's out there, and left out a scaling chip that can actually scale resolutions without issues. That doesn't mean it needs to stay this way forever. They could put this whole thing behind them, by putting a chip in a future revision of the PS3. Maybe not the 80 gigger coming out in August, but maybe another revision coming in 2008.

It's sad that those of you with 1080p displays can pretty much care less, and tell us to join you in the future with your fancy schmancy 1080p displays. I say pooey.

POOEY ON YOU!!!!!


lol :D

Chip is already in the system.

Chip is already in the system.

I think we've been over this before - no matter whether there is a "scaling chip" by any definition no matter how extreme, the PS3's version of hardware scaling absolutely does not function like any other scaler anywhere on the planet. I actually wonder whether for a graphic intensive game there is enough power to eek out that additional 10-15% over 720p to hit that oddball resolution which will allow for scaling. I'm guessing they are using everything they can to produce the best 720p games possible (a good thing) and there is not much left over for the added resolution required for their psuedo-scaling. Bottom line, true hardware scaling in the "real" sense of the word, handles all common resolutions without issue - that's every chip inside every tuner and external HD source on the planet. Sony's "hardware scaler" is the equivalent of a car without an engine, yeah you can push it or a dev and attach a horse and pull the thing for you but it sure isn't comparable to anything else baring the same name. Calling this hardware scaling is pissing on my leg telling me it's raining. If there was even a remotely standard hardware scaling capability - we would not be having this conversation and these games would work at 1080i.

PS3 is the odd ball out of A/V and next-gen console gaming?

From a perspective of compatibility and scaling. Every other component is fully capable and causes no issues. Stroll through any Best Buy or dedicated A/V store, this is the only unit of any kind with this issue or that has ever had this issue (caveat being the original Xbox and the few 720p games on it which should have served as a warning since it was plastered all over the net and it's not like Sony isn't in the business and should have known). Every consumer HD display ever made accepts 1080i. There was a huge number of displays made 2004 and back which don't accept 720p (many made by Sony themselves and this affects the high end specifically with Mits and Pioneer).

I'm not asking anyone for pity here or to even give a rats' ass, but let's not gloss over or try to dress up the issue. It is what it is and it's absolutely ridiculous that Sony managed to bungle this.

I have a 1080i only tv so I have been checking the back of the game boxes. So far most of the newer games support 1080i.

I think we've been over this before - no matter whether there is a "scaling chip" by any definition no matter how extreme, the PS3's version of hardware scaling absolutely does not function like any other scaler anywhere on the planet. I actually wonder whether for a graphic intensive game there is enough power to eek out that additional 10-15% over 720p to hit that oddball resolution which will allow for scaling. I'm guessing they are using everything they can to produce the best 720p games possible (a good thing) and there is not much left over for the added resolution required for their psuedo-scaling. Bottom line, true hardware scaling in the "real" sense of the word, handles all common resolutions without issue - that's every chip inside every tuner and external HD source on the planet. Sony's "hardware scaler" is the equivalent of a car without an engine, yeah you can push it or a dev and attach a horse and pull the thing for you but it sure isn't comparable to anything else baring the same name. Calling this hardware scaling is pissing on my leg telling me it's raining. If there was even a remotely standard hardware scaling capability - we would not be having this conversation and these games would work at 1080i.

Look, the bottom line is the chip is there and it's fully capable of upscaling to 1080 as any other hardware scaler allows you to do. It's just for some reason Sony limits access to that scaler. The chip is in there, so we should not be yelling at them to add the hardware into the system. What we should be doing is yelling at them to allow the functionality. So no matter how you slice it, the chip is in there and I hope people start realizing there is a difference.

There still is no proof that there is a chip dedicated to scaling. Sony has enabled a version of horizontal scaling but that isn't proof of a chip. Hell one of my buds is an Nvidia engineer that worked on the RSX. I mentioned the scaling issue to him and he said he didn't see why they didn't just let the RSX do the scaling as it is fully capable of doing so.

Eitherway I don't care if the hardware is there or it is in't, the functionality is missing and that's what 1080i only tv owners are pissed about.

My opinion - there may be the capability somewhere in there but to deliberately not utilize it, it's either conspiracy theory or limitation somewhere in the device. If the chip is there and the PS3 can't utilize it without some whacked out work around and didn't even allow its use early on there's a problem somewhere in there - oh well, bad design for scaling. No one is this stupid to needlessly hobble themselves and impose oddball constraints on their developers without a reason.

One of Sony's main products is Displays. Maybe they are hoping that some of you will get frustrated by the situation and buy a new Sony TV. Just kidding.

That really sucks because some of those 1080i CRT Projection sets have really nice pictures. Its crazy of them to have not considered these sets when they designed their console.

Like one of the above posters mentioned why dont they just let the GPU handle it. Or they could probably just do it in software doesnt there super computer CPU have any cycles to spare?

One of Sony's main products is Displays. Maybe they are hoping that some of you will get frustrated by the situation and buy a new Sony TV. Just kidding.

That really sucks because some of those 1080i CRT Projection sets have really nice pictures. Its crazy of them to have not considered these sets when they designed their console.

Like one of the above posters mentioned why dont they just let the GPU handle it. Or they could probably just do it in software doesnt there super computer CPU have any cycles to spare?

If I had a 1080i display at this point I'd do one of 2 things.

1. Get a new display
2. Put more energy towards the game manufacturers, not Sony. We know the games designers can choose to support 1080i, and we know they have done it. If there is a game you can't live w/out, email them and petition them. There is no reason to believe sony will change anything at this point.

I was referring to the majority of 1080P HDTVs. Most of them do 1080P via HDMI.
- Not my first generation 60" Sony SXRD. It will only accept 1080i via HDMI, it won't even accept it's native resolution of 1080p. It is quite old though, since I bought it in December 2005. Maybe I should just upgrade it?

People are complaining about this still because they shouldn't have to upgrade their TV. As other posters have mentioned, virtually every HD device out there has a built in scaler, even the $100 Radio Shack OTA boxes.

My mom bought a Mits Diamondvision set around 2003/4, so I know about the set. However, it's unfortunate that they came without 720P and that's the danger of being an early adopter of new tech (1080P). Regardless of what you or I think, one thing seems very likely - that the PS3 won't force all titles to display in 720P.
- What other HD device would not be able to scale 720p to 1080i for your mother's TV? None that I know of.

The 60" SXRD XBR1 doesn't belong in this conversation. I had one and it has no problem displaying 720P content, which was the point of the OP's complaint.

Of course it is limited to accepting 1080i input, so for 1080P games the PS3 would send a 1080i signal and the set upconverted it to 1080P while introducing input lag. I now have a 60" SXRD XBR2 that's fully 1080P input/output compliant, so I no longer have that problem.

Even when I did have to deal with it, I wasn't complaining that Sony needed to patch the PS3 in some way to accommodate deficiencies in my HDTV. If they do then fine. If not, you as an owner have decisions to make as to whether you deal with it or get a new set somehow.

The 60" SXRD XBR1 doesn't belong in this conversation. I had one and it has no problem displaying 720P content, which was the point of the OP's complaint.
- It does belong in this conversation, since the conversation is about owning a device that does not support every resolution. At the time, there was no 1080p content other than a few rumored ones. I bought the TV anyway, but if there was a device that only output 1080p and not 1080i, then you could be sure I would be complaining just as loudly.

Again, there was another question in there. Do you know of another HD device that does scale 720p to 1080i?

I knew I had that Deja Vu feeling.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=856646&page=2&pp=30&highlight=scaler

- It does belong in this conversation, since the conversation is about owning a device that does not support every resolution. At the time, there was no 1080p content other than a few rumored ones. I bought the TV anyway, but if there was a device that only output 1080p and not 1080i, then you could be sure I would be complaining just as loudly.

Again, there was another question in there. Do you know of another HD device that does scale 720p to 1080i?

The PS3 DOES support 1080i and 1080P. If you have a 1080i-max input HDTV like the XBR1, the PS3 will convert 1080P content and make it 1080i just so your TV can accept it. That HDTV then converts it back to 1080P for display. The process of back and forth conversions introduces gameplay lag, but the PS3 does everything that it can possibly do so you can play games and see Blu-ray/upconverted DVDs on your TV's max resolution. This is not a scaling process but a conversion process from a progressive signal (ideal) to an interlace signal and back again.

What else do you expect the PS3 to do? Force your HDTV to accept 1080P? That set does not have the same issues to deal with raised by this thread so it is a separate conversation (check the one I made right here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8951718&&#post8951718) ). The PS3 already uses your HDTV to the best of its ability.

Yup developer should be maki ng games in 1080p,. Time to upgrade your TV im afraid. The PS3 isnt a half step into next gen hardware like the 360 is. Everything is better at native resolution anyway.

What else do you expect the PS3 to do? Force your HDTV to accept 1080P? That set does not have the same issues to deal with raised by this thread so it is a separate conversation
- I'm not part of the group that has a problem with the PS3's lack of scaler. All of my HDTV's accept 720p and 1080i. My point was that not every buys a TV and expects to have problems with ONE device. My 1080p set not accepting it's native resolution was an example of this.

The difference is that I understand why people with 1080i only CRT's are frustrated and are pointing the finger at Sony. Who's really at fault?

Remember, I had the XBR1 too, but my response was different. I didn't point a finger at Sony and complain for the issues that I have to deal with, but I just accepted things as they were and made decisions from there. You see I made a thread in hopes to make the best of what the set could do, which I updated until I got my new HDTV. Technology is always changing; there is always some new and improved feature down the line.

I'm jazzed that the PS3 even has a firmware update system to do their best to keep up with an evolving industry. I just think there's a point where people should be more realistic about what they can expect and more cautious about what they buy and when.

Thats a realistic way to view things joeblow, also people cant just go buy things randomly and then expect perfect results and they have to except that when they buy a new piece of equiptment that it might not mesh up well with an older piece of equiptment or maybe not at all. People had better get used to the way technology is these days, you have to pay to play!

I agree that Sony has done a ton of great things with their firmware upgrades, including PS2 support for the Virtua Stick High Grade, which was the #1 priority to me. But the problem is that nothing seems to be consistent, which is why people have a hard time being realistic. Resistance and Motorstorm only have 720p, which games like Virtua Fighter 5 have 720p and 1080i support.

It also doesn't help that their biggest competitor has a built in scaler and now offers component, VGA and HDMI outputs.

I think alot of people buy a PS3 or at least should buy a PS3 because they have done their homework and know what they are buying. Yes it is true that buying a 360 is a thinkless purchase sort to speak. Again though, the PS3 is not half step which means if you have an older TV then you should either upgrade or not buy a PS3. I think all games should be in 1080i or greater but they just are not. Now it would be nice if there was something Sony could do in the form of firmware but thats really not what they are selling here. The game developers need to supply the 1080i support.

Again though, the PS3 is not half step which means if you have an older TV then you should either upgrade or not buy a PS3.
In this situation it sure is 'half step' (whatever that means). My HDTV supports a higher resolution than most PS3 games will output.

Unfortunately there isn't just a single resolution the HD gen needs to deal with. There are 3 majors, 720p, 1080i, 1080p. All HD devices in this day and age should be able to output its signal in any of those, whether it be natively or via scaling. The PS3 isn't one of those devices and it is sad. It also happens to be the only one in my house that doesn't.

It's no surprise to me that this thread has devolved into another thread where the people who aren't affected by this problem basically tell those who are that they should just replace TV's they spent thousands of dollars on and quit complaining. However this has nothing to do with the OP's question. The point is why isn't Sony still being asked about this? When this first came to light Sony's first response was there would be a firmware fix. Of course shortly after that Sony backed off of that statement and to this day there has been no definitive word on what if anything will be done about it. Whether or not this only affects a minority of PS3 owners is irrelevant, the truth is that it does affect a lot of people and one way or another Sony should be held accountable for it.

It's no surprise to me that this thread has devolved into another thread where the people who aren't affected by this problem basically tell those who are that they should just replace TV's they spent thousands of dollars on and quit complaining. However this has nothing to do with the OP's question. The point is why isn't Sony still being asked about this? When this first came to light Sony's first response was there would be a firmware fix. Of course shortly after that Sony backed off of that statement and to this day there has been no definitive word on what if anything will be done about it. Whether or not this only affects a minority of PS3 owners is irrelevant, the truth is that it does affect a lot of people and one way or another Sony should be held accountable for it.


True all we wanted was a answer if they are or arent going to address this issue.

They shouldnt be accountable for anything. So you payed alot of money for a TV and now its outdated, well guess what, its that way with everything. I paid $2,000 for my TV and now it wont do 1080p, I guess when the PS4 comes out I will whine and complain and blame Sony for something I purchased years ago or for something I didnt research and make a smart purchase on.

"True all we wanted was a answer if they are or arent going to address this issue."

When put that way I sympathize, yes they could give you a yes or no answer but this
really isnt something that needs to be fixed on Sonys end.

This is BS that has been discussed so many times. Those that have the tvs and the issue keep putting it on SOny and the PS3. Those that don't, have common sense enough to know that we ALL have to upgrade all of our equipment eventually.

I understand you maybe pissed off to say the least with this issue, but get real.

My 3 year old Onkyo receiver doesn't do HDMI or have Dolby True HD or DTS MA.. IS that the PS3 and Sonys fault also? Of course not.

I bought a SOny RPTV LCD4 years ago knowing it could accept other resolutions and scale at the same time I knew there were HD CRT RPTV's for sale that couldn't.

I am going to upgrade my display to a 1080p at the end of this year for several of the capabilities it has that my current display doesn't.

I am going to upgrade my receiver as well for many reasons some of which I mentioned above.

I am upgrading because the PS3 has abilities I want to use and take advantage of that my current display and receiver don't have, like picture and sound improvements.


I could go on and on about this with a multitude of products.

Cell phones networks that have video, my laptop that can play dvd's, but now I want it to play blu ray, etc.

Hey I conform or be cast out. I buy or get left behind. The current technologies virtually require upgrades every 2-3 years, regardless of price. This is the way it is like it or not.

It's no surprise to me that this thread has devolved into another thread where the people who aren't affected by this problem basically tell those who are that they should just replace TV's they spent thousands of dollars on and quit complaining. However this has nothing to do with the OP's question. The point is why isn't Sony still being asked about this? When this first came to light Sony's first response was there would be a firmware fix. Of course shortly after that Sony backed off of that statement and to this day there has been no definitive word on what if anything will be done about it. Whether or not this only affects a minority of PS3 owners is irrelevant, the truth is that it does affect a lot of people and one way or another Sony should be held accountable for it.

You and many others have been given your answer many times by us at AVS esplaining our opinion as well as Sony's by lack of doing anything about the issue at this time. You just don't want to hear or accept the fact that black is black no matter how many times you have been told it is not white. Why do you think you and others are the only ones with upgrade issues? We all have them if we want to be able to utilize the latest and greatest any technologies have to offer we have to buy new receivers, display, etc. About the only thing that doesn't need upgrading because of tech changes are speakers and furniture.

correct me if im wrong but wouldnt a 720progressive scan look better than a 1080interlaced when it comes to fast action?

It is funny, everyone keeps trying to come up with arguments of their old technology not supporting new technology such as old receivers that didn't have HDMI or whatnot when the scaling issue is actually the reverse. The new tech doesn't support the old which is actually a standard and has been since HDTV was first launched. It isn't like we asking Sony to make our equipment better than it is, we are just asking them to support them to their best ability which should have been a given since 1080i has been an ATSC standard since the beginning. Something that 1080p isn't even. Some games only outputting 720p is a step down, not up for those of us with 1080i setups. Truthfully it is embarrassing that the 'True HD' PS3 is one of the only HD CE devices that can't output all content as 1080i.

So again, enough with the lame comparisons to other technology that doesn't even relate to this problem. The real comparison would be if you bought a new HDMI receiver with full TrueHD and DTS MA decoding, but find out that if you feed it a disc that has regular DD or DTS all you get is a mono track. Would you pissed at the receiver manufacturer, or the maker of the DVD?

I am upgrading because the PS3 has abilities I want to use and take advantage of that my current display and receiver don't have, like picture and sound improvements.

I could go on and on about this with a multitude of products.
- Why go on and on about a multitude of other products? Can you name another HD output device that cannot scale 720p to 1080i out there?

I guess these people are stupid. Go back to playing with wooden toys and marbles then. You are forever going to be $hit out of luck and it sounds like some of you deserve it.

"Can you name another HD output device that cannot scale 720p to 1080i out there"

Why would you want a crummy upscale when the materal was created at 720p?

It's no surprise to me that this thread has devolved into another thread where the people who aren't affected by this problem basically tell those who are that they should just replace TV's they spent thousands of dollars on and quit complaining. However this has nothing to do with the OP's question. The point is why isn't Sony still being asked about this? When this first came to light Sony's first response was there would be a firmware fix. Of course shortly after that Sony backed off of that statement and to this day there has been no definitive word on what if anything will be done about it. Whether or not this only affects a minority of PS3 owners is irrelevant, the truth is that it does affect a lot of people and one way or another Sony should be held accountable for it.

Not everyone has devlovled into a stupid argument. Look at some of the previous posts. Many of us tried to address your questions.

1. Sony isn't being asked about this because obviously its not an issue that affects that many people. Im not a hater, I wish you guys got full support on your older sets, but I believe thats why no on is asking Sony about it.

2. I never saw the statement by Sony where they said they would address this in firmware, a link would be great. If they backed off the statement later, I think you have the answer to your question.

3. It isn't irrelevent that this only affects a small amount of people. Its very relevent. Sony is a business, they have every right in the world to say, "hey, we are not going to support this kind of scaling through hardware, we want our hardware to output in the intended rendered resolution. If the games want to support it, they can." If that is their stance, than that is their stance.

I wish this was a perfect world where you could by a TV and never have to worry about this sort of thing, but its not.

Why would you want a crummy upscale when the materal was created at 720p?
Because it is better than 480p which is exactly what those 720p games turn into.

As for 'crummy', just look no further than all the claims in the DVD upscaling threads throughout this entire forum where people claim it is almost as good as HD. And that's from 480p. 720p to 1080i isn't that big of a stretch.

Not sure why the people who this doesn't affect continue to be so defensive. If they add it, or had it already it wouldn't effect you. So go along your way and stop shitting on the people that helped get the HDTV ball rolling in the first place.

Because it is better than 480p which is exactly what those 720p games turn into.

As for 'crummy', just look no further than all the claims in the DVD upscaling threads throughout this entire forum where people claim it is almost as good as HD. And that's from 480p. 720p to 1080i isn't that big of a stretch.

Not sure why the people who this doesn't affect continue to be so defensive. If they add it, or had it already it wouldn't effect you. So go along your way and stop shitting on the people that helped get the HDTV ball rolling in the first place.

Your right, its not that big of a jump, many 720 game support 1080i in game. Are there many games coming out that you guys are excited about that won't support 1080i? These days, I think games like to support 1080 output just so they can put it on the box, even if it isn't rendered at 1080.

Your right, its not that big of a jump, many 720 game support 1080i in game. Are there many games coming out that you guys are excited about that won't support 1080i? These days, I think games like to support 1080 output just so they can put it on the box, even if it isn't rendered at 1080.
Not sure. It is hard to get definites from some of the developers until the game is on store shelves. It is nice that there seems to be more focus on trying to deliver at 1080p now than they did at launch though.

Not sure. It is hard to get definites from some of the developers until the game is on store shelves. It is nice that there seems to be more focus on trying to deliver at 1080p now than they did at launch though.

I actually dont want games in 1080p, but I dont mind if they upconvert it from 720 to 1080 in game. I believe lair is supposed to be a native 1080 game and I think your going to see that its very impressive, but that they will have to give up a lot in the way of textures to render at 1080.

It looks like the textures aren't that big of a problem with Lair since the texture streaming is one of the big 'advancements' the dev team put into it. For instance being able to see the entire village from high in the sky, then flying all the way down to ground level as the textures load and the detail increases.

But you are right that there are some sacrifices that must be made when the game goes from 720p to 1080p. But there are some advantages too, like being able to reduce the amount of AA you need applied to reduce jaggies. I'm hoping that as they 2nd and 3rd gen games start coming out that they will really have figured out how to utilize the 7 cell processors.

- Why go on and on about a multitude of other products? Can you name another HD output device that cannot scale 720p to 1080i out there?


First and most obvious would be the tv itself that some are expecting the PS3 to do it for them.

Because it is better than 480p which is exactly what those 720p games turn into.

As for 'crummy', just look no further than all the claims in the DVD upscaling threads throughout this entire forum where people claim it is almost as good as HD. And that's from 480p. 720p to 1080i isn't that big of a stretch.

Not sure why the people who this doesn't affect continue to be so defensive. If they add it, or had it already it wouldn't effect you. So go along your way and stop shitting on the people that helped get the HDTV ball rolling in the first place.


Which is what your 1080i/480p display turns those 720p games into, 480p. Mine turns them into its' native resolution(788p) and accepts 480i/p, 720p,1080i. I bought it in 2004 knowing it did just that. I got good advice by the store salesman who actually had some tech knowledge and foresight. While the retail stores still had plenty of and were selling 480p/1080i HD CRT RPTV's and HD CRT TV's, I bought the "better choice". I wanted the better blacks and PQ of an 1080i CRT, but there were many advantages for what I was going to watch and do with LCD RPTV, namely HTPC and gaming and eliminating the burn in issue.

No one is Sh*ting on anyone. We are calling BS on something that is real to you and sucks but tough S**t to us as we see it. If that is Sh**ting on you then so be it, but it isn't us against you. We hear you, we do, but when you get your issue resolved please help us resolve ours on our unfuture proof equipment. One thing though. If we don't get sympathy, empathy or support, we at least already know why. :D

A solution to this problem would be to bye an external scaler and feed it with the PS3 signal. I remember seeing one a while ago that accepts any signal and scales to any signal.

I get sick of all this apathy and blame the victime mentality.

Lets focus this discussion.

1) If a display does not handle 720p signals, a 720p signal should be upscaled by the HD device to 1080i not downscaled to 480p. If you disagree please explain what benifit 480p has over 1080i.

2) "Can you name another HD output device that cannot scale 720p to 1080i out there"

This is absolutely a problem (and has been).

In response to the original poster about whether or not someone at E3 asked Sony to comment about this on the record... I suspect not, or if they did, Sony declined. As such, I don't believe there was any information about this problem (and/or any potential solutions other than replacing the HDTV) released at E3.

My 3 year old Onkyo receiver doesn't do HDMI or have Dolby True HD or DTS MA.. IS that the PS3 and Sonys fault also? Of course not.


Bad analogy. Your Onkyo supports all the features that were available as standards at the time it was released, the features you mention its missing are all forward looking and were not avaialble yet when it was out. The PS3 is exactly the opposite, its ignoring a standard that was in wide use at the time it was released (and still is).

For the PS3 not to scale, Sony points the fingers at developers instead. But hardware scaling is practically free, while god knows how much work has to be done at the software level to enable 1080i/540p output. Sony, for whatever reason, has alienated 1080i owners. So 90% of CRT owners are left with playing most games at 480p. Sony can blame the devs, the devs can say "we didn't have time to implement it", and Sony still loses sales and face.

To make this simpler, it would be as though a new Onkyo receiver decided to support TRUE HD and DTS MA, but then decided that it was no longer going to decode Dolby Digital, leaving all your DVD's screwed. And then Onkyo going on the record and saying "Well, its up to the DVD manufactuers to include DTS or TrueHD support on their discs".

See how retarded that sounds? Thats how retarded Sonys PS3 "no scaling" decision sounds to the rest of us who own 1080i sets.


I bought a SOny RPTV LCD4 years ago knowing it could accept other resolutions and scale at the same time I knew there were HD CRT RPTV's for sale that couldn't.


When I bought my 65" Mitsubishi in 2001, none of the sets out, including $10,000+ Pioneer Elites had internal scalers. Which didn't matter, because every HD device scaled. OTA Tuners, Cable Boxes, you name it. There were some Hitachi sets that scaled, but nobody carred them anywhere near me.


I am going to upgrade my display to a 1080p at the end of this year for several of the capabilities it has that my current display doesn't.

I am going to upgrade my receiver as well for many reasons some of which I mentioned above.


I wont be upgrading anything.....nor will I be adding additional speakers to my theatre area because the new potential going forward standard is 7.1, or then 8.1 or 9.1 or whatever else they try to convince us that we "need" in the coming years.

You guys need to break out of that "Consumer Sheep" mentality where marketing convinces you that the stuff they sold you last time as "The ultimate in quality!" is now "garbage, and you need to buy this new hot ultimate in quality stuff!".
Digital flatpanels still haven't equalled the visual quality of CRT's......and the bump to True HD audio in 7.1 isn't enough of a sonic improvement over a good 5.1 mix with proper speaker positining to justify the cost of upgrading to me.



Hey I conform or be cast out. I buy or get left behind. The current technologies virtually require upgrades every 2-3 years, regardless of price. This is the way it is like it or not.

No, thats not the way it is. Thats the way you *perceive* it to be. In reality the stuff you already own today is a huge, vast, dramatic improvement from the stuff 10 years earlier, but the stuff you are contemplating buying is really more like an evolutionary (as opposed to REVOLUTIONARY) step forward, and you'll be paying big-bucks for the privledge.

The move from VHS to DVD was a visual improvement on a massive scale. The move from analog surround to true 5.1 digital surround was an aural improvement on a massive scale.

Consequently, the move from 480p to 720p was an evolutionary step...the visuals got better, but it really depended on the size of your screen. The move from 5.1 to 7.1 was another "yeah...two more speakers...kinda sorta better..maybe".

Now today you're being told that 1080p and 7.1 lossless are the must-haves. And on and on it goes....

Instead of seeing improvements in visual clarity on 720p devices, like improved response times, improved contrast ratios and black levels, instead we are now chasing the same specs only with higher resolutions....which is a step in the wrong direction.

Whats next for audio? Thats easy....9.1+ surrounds I think, probably mounted vertically facing down over the primary listening position. Since they can't do better than lossless audio, its time to start adding speakers again :D

Also a dedicated output for some form of tactile response, possibly a dedicated channel for digital movement commands for motion-sensing furniture....couches that tilt or rattle or shake with action onscreen. Thats the next step in immersion.

I think those who are saying they are just stating the facts are missing an important fact: the PS3 is supposed to be an HD Device and from the very beginning every bit of documentation said it supported all HD resolutions. There was the assumption that it should be able to display all games at the output resolutions (not necessarily as native).

Perhaps this was naive on the part of buyers to assume that a 720p game should be output to 1080i in their sets, but everything in the Ps3 documentation said you could set the output to 1080i. Many thought this was no different than ESPN being broadcast in 720p and your cable box would just output it to 1080i.

If I shelled out money for something that was advertised as being HD and supporting all HD resolutions only to later find out that it couldn't, I'd have every right to be mad. How many people face the blu-ray scaling issue which was later resolved? Did they have no right to be angry as well? Luckily, their issue was fixed. The issue is not simply people in this thread should simply be good consumers, concede their earlier purchasing error, and go out and buy a new TV - rather, the issue is these consumers had every reason to believe up front (by both the documentation provided by Sony and previews of the system from gaming magazines) that they would be able to play an HD game at an HD resolution (whether native or not) on any HDTV. Again, the belief was that scaling would be no different for than an HD cable box.

Now before people go off saying this was just a "belief", please remember that it was one facilitated by Sony and by every video game magazine covering the PS3 before its release.

I'd like to add that the very last 4:3 CRT XBR sets from Sony all had 1080i support only, along with almost all HDTV sets at that time.

... but 480p/1080i TVs are also quite the minority.

Quite the minority? Really? Is this because you've got a TV that doesn't do this, or is this based on an exhaustive study of TV sales from all HDTV vendors?

Allright.

So you payed alot of money for a TV and now its outdated, well guess what, its that way with everything..

Rubbish. Are you saying the most widely accepted broadcast resolution of HDTV is obsolete? By this logic, TV could have a new video format every four years.

I guess these people are stupid. Go back to playing with wooden toys and marbles then. You are forever going to be $hit out of luck and it sounds like some of you deserve it.

Yeah, well, these 'stupid' people are a large part of the reason you can watch HDTV in the first place.

Like I said before, my Sony 4:3 1080i HDTV will be replaced with a non-Sony. As will the AVR, to one that does HDMI->component upscaling.

The continued ignorance of a few people in this thread is appalling.

It's not worth it.

The continued ignorance of a few people in this thread is appalling.

It's not worth it.

Its not worth what? What do you want from people? Do you want us to say "Oh its a travesty! Your set won't accept a 720p signal, we have to do something about it!" Sorry man, your not gonna get a lot of support in your crusade. You should be appealing to the games manufacturers, because they are the ones that can change this right now. Sony won't even comment on this issue anymore, does that suck for you? Hell ya it does, but there isn't anything anyone can do here about it. If this issue affected more people, maybe something can be done, but the reality is that it doesnt. If your lucky you'll find 3 or 4 people on various messageboards bring this up every couple of months, but it doesnt affect the vast majority of users.

Like I said....

Like I said....

Two can play that game, like I said....

Its not worth what? What do you want from people? Do you want us to say "Oh its a travesty! Your set won't accept a 720p signal, we have to do something about it!" Sorry man, your not gonna get a lot of support in your crusade. You should be appealing to the games manufacturers, because they are the ones that can change this right now. Sony won't even comment on this issue anymore, does that suck for you? Hell ya it does, but there isn't anything anyone can do here about it. If this issue affected more people, maybe something can be done, but the reality is that it doesnt. If your lucky you'll find 3 or 4 people on various messageboards bring this up every couple of months, but it doesnt affect the vast majority of users.
http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=ps3&thread.id=1543693&view=by_date_ascending&page=1 um its a little more than that :rolleyes:

http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=ps3&thread.id=1543693&view=by_date_ascending&page=1 um its a little more than that :rolleyes:

I have actually read this thread, all of it. Its very similar to this one, 4 or 5 people complaining that their TV won't accept signals, then 4 or 5 fanboys defending Sony. I'm not defending Sony, IMO they should have made it a requirement for game developers to upconvert to 1080i in order to get a licensed game. I'm just saying I dont understand this crusade. At this point its just bitching. There is no reason whatsoever to believe Sony will do anything about this and there are not enough people to make them care. I think your energy would be better spent appealing to games manufacturers because they can very easily give 1080i support.

I guess I am confused. Hasn't some broadcast stations always been 720P? Fox I believe has been 720P from the beginning. Maybe I am mistaken. For those that have 1080i only sets I guess you can't receive 720P over the air (OTA) signals?

Why would manufacturers produce a TV that can't receive a 720P OTA signal? Did broadcasters not use 720P at that time?

I guess I am confused. Hasn't some broadcast stations always been 720P? Fox I believe has been 720P from the beginning. Maybe I am mistaken. For those that have 1080i only sets I guess you can't receive 720P over the air (OTA) signals?

Why would manufacturers produce a TV that can't receive a 720P OTA signal? Did broadcasters not use 720P at that time?

In most cases, their cable box will upconvert to 1080i, but yet, I would assume they can't get it OTA.

In most cases, their cable box will upconvert to 1080i, but yet, I would assume they can't get it OTA.

Well if a big broadcaster like Fox doesn't care about the non-720P sets then Sony sure as hell isn't going to care.

Its not worth what? What do you want from people? Do you want us to say "Oh its a travesty! Your set won't accept a 720p signal, we have to do something about it!" Sorry man, your not gonna get a lot of support in your crusade. You should be appealing to the games manufacturers, because they are the ones that can change this right now. Sony won't even comment on this issue anymore, does that suck for you? Hell ya it does, but there isn't anything anyone can do here about it. If this issue affected more people, maybe something can be done, but the reality is that it doesnt. If your lucky you'll find 3 or 4 people on various messageboards bring this up every couple of months, but it doesnt affect the vast majority of users.
According to a poll on this very site 57 people said they had this problem. That was over 44% of the people who responded to the poll. Certainly more than 4 or 5 people. Even if that number does over-represent the people who are affected by this nationwide it is indicative of a significant number of people affected.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=770141&highlight=Poll+PS3+1080i

According to a poll on this very site 57 people said they had this problem. That was over 44% of the people who responded to the poll. Certainly more than 4 or 5 people. Even if that number does over-represent the people who are affected by this nationwide it is indicative of a significant number of people affected.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=770141&highlight=Poll+PS3+1080i

Yes, I think it is terribly overrepresented. Still, you make a good point, 57 people on this site is a lot. I still think the bottom line is that Sony is not going to address this issue and you are better off throwing your complaints at the games manufacturers. They have the power, right now today, to output in 1080i. Also, I would still argue that very few people with HDTVs still have the CRT sets (I know I dont know any). I know that in 2004 approximately 10% of households had HDTV sets, and even then a lot of those accepted 720. Now, approximately 30% have sets and I guarantee you a lot of those are people from the original 10% that have upgraded.

I guess I am confused. Hasn't some broadcast stations always been 720P? Fox I believe has been 720P from the beginning. Maybe I am mistaken. For those that have 1080i only sets I guess you can't receive 720P over the air (OTA) signals?

Why would manufacturers produce a TV that can't receive a 720P OTA signal? Did broadcasters not use 720P at that time?

Many of these TV's were "HD Ready" and the external digital tuner would handle the scaling should people want OTA HD.

Many of these TV's were "HD Ready" and the external digital tuner would handle the scaling should people want OTA HD.

It's still confusing and worth further research. Why would Fox choose to broadcast 720P knowing that many of the TVs at that time did not except a 720P input.

Quote:
So you payed alot of money for a TV and now its outdated, well guess what, its that way with everything..



You know, technically due to its lack of a scaler for scaling 720p images into 1080i/1080p and vice versus, the PS3 could be considered and expensive outdated piece of equipment, seriously name a HD device today that doesn't do this outside the PS3. I've seen 450 DVD players that can do this, yet the PS3 cannot scale up motorstorm into 1080p? Crazy.

It's still confusing and worth further research. Why would Fox choose to broadcast 720P knowing that many of the TVs at that time did not except a 720P input.

I seem to remember something about Fox, ABC, and ESPN all being concerned that the interlaced nature of 1080i would detract from the viewing experience of sporting events. The idea, if I remember correctly, was that the fast moving footage in sporting event would look better if the signal was progressive and this was their guiding logic.

Remember, the thing with these TV's is that they didn't have a tuner and could not directly accept any ATSC signals (whether 1080i or 720p) without the aid of an external tuner . When I bought mine, I knew that every cable box would scale 720p to 1080i and that any external tuner I would want would have to be able to do the same. I don't know of a single external ATSC tuner that can't convert between HD resolutions. Am I wrong here?

Quote:
So you payed alot of money for a TV and now its outdated, well guess what, its that way with everything..



You know, technically due to its lack of a scaler for scaling 720p images into 1080i/1080p and vice versus, the PS3 could be considered and expensive outdated piece of equipment, seriously name a HD device today that doesn't do this outside the PS3. I've seen 450 DVD players that can do this, yet the PS3 cannot scale up motorstorm into 1080p? Crazy.

I'm convinced it's because they forgot to include a good digital scaler chip. They insist on doing this using the Cell or RSX and just haven't figured out the proper programming to get this done. Give them time and they will figure it out.

Just how much are the digital scaler chips going for these days? Are they really that expensive? My guess is they aren't but Sony was stretched budget wise because of the BluRay inclusion that they had to pinch pennies everywhere they could.

Darknight prove me wrong give me the model number of this phantom digital scaler chip! :) I bet it's got CELL written on it!!! ;) :cool: ;)

I seem to remember something about Fox, ABC, and ESPN all being concerned that the interlaced nature of 1080i would detract from the viewing experience of sporting events. The idea, if I remember correctly, was that the fast moving footage in sporting event would look better if the signal was progressive and this was their guiding logic.

Remember, the thing with these TV's is that they didn't have a tuner and could not directly accept any ATSC signals (whether 1080i or 720p) without the aid of an external tuner . When I bought mine, I knew that every cable box would scale 720p to 1080i and that any external tuner I would want would have to be able to do the same. I don't know of a single external ATSC tuner that can't convert between HD resolutions. Am I wrong here?

Well, your TV is another device that won't scale 720 to 1080i. Given, its not an "external" device, but if it scaled it you wouldnt have this problem. Also, to be fair, the PS3 WILL output a 720 game in 1080i, the game just has to tell the PS3 to do this. Again, it sux for you, but your desires are at odds to mine. I dont want my PS3 automatically outputting at a generic resolution, that can slow things down. I want my bluray output at 1080 and my games at 720 when they are 720 games. Given, if there was a way to tell it to output at different resolutions in different situations, I would like that, but I dont know of a product that does this either.

I seem to remember something about Fox, ABC, and ESPN all being concerned that the interlaced nature of 1080i would detract from the viewing experience of sporting events. The idea, if I remember correctly, was that the fast moving footage in sporting event would look better if the signal was progressive and this was their guiding logic.

Remember, the thing with these TV's is that they didn't have a tuner and could not directly accept any ATSC signals (whether 1080i or 720p) without the aid of an external tuner . When I bought mine, I knew that every cable box would scale 720p to 1080i and that any external tuner I would want would have to be able to do the same. I don't know of a single external ATSC tuner that can't convert between HD resolutions. Am I wrong here?

I think you might be right. Four years ago when I bought my Samsung I remember it being pretty rare for a TV to have an ATSC tuner built in. So I guess the TV manufacturers just assumed the box would do the scaling.

Well, your TV is another device that won't scale 720 to 1080i. Given, its not an "external" device, but if it scaled it you wouldnt have this problem. Also, to be fair, the PS3 WILL output a 720 game in 1080i, the game just has to tell the PS3 to do this. Again, it sux for you, but your desires are at odds to mine. I dont want my PS3 automatically outputting at a generic resolution, that can slow things down. I want my bluray output at 1080 and my games at 720 when they are 720 games. Given, if there was a way to tell it to output at different resolutions in different situations, I would like that, but I dont know of a product that does this either.

Well, that TV...:) I picked up an open-box samsung 1080p 40" LCD from bestbuy for super cheap...It's internal scaler is superfast and 720p content looks great on it.

As for your scaling preference, to each their own. With a fixed panel display you really have little choice as to whether non-native resolution is scaled, your only choice is which device does it better (whether it is your internal scaler or some external device). With a CRT, then you have less options as not all CRT's had internal scaling and you were forced to rely on external device

"To be fair..."...Well, not really. I think February is when the patch came out allowing for developers to do the horizontal scaling thing, that essentially meant if developers didn't outright support 1080i there was no option prior to February.

You also have to take into account every bit of information released prior to the official release of the PS3 indicated scaling would not be a problem - the system could do it. It wasn't until Darknight said there might be a problem was anything said, and even then people didn't believe him because the expectation was so prevalent that there would be an internal scaler. This is why people were angry: they had every reason to believe the PS3 would support 1080i. Imagine their surprise when all their new games were being displayed in 480p - other than darknight's post, there was literally no warning.

We're not at odds here, I just want everyone to be able to play any PS3 game at an HD resolution their TV supports. There is nothing about your preferences that should preclude having the option to scale a 720p game to 1080i. Not a single thing.

I guess I am confused. Hasn't some broadcast stations always been 720P? Fox I believe has been 720P from the beginning. Maybe I am mistaken. For those that have 1080i only sets I guess you can't receive 720P over the air (OTA) signals?

Why would manufacturers produce a TV that can't receive a 720P OTA signal? Did broadcasters not use 720P at that time?

If the TV had an internal ATSC tuner, it did the scaling for you.

If it had an external OTA tuner, the tuner did the scaling for you.

If it was a cable box, the cable box did the scaling for you.

The PS3, in their sheer brilliance, decided not to do automatic scaling of its content. So I can set the dashboard to 1080i, I can browse the web and
fold at 1080i, but as soon as I pop in a 720p game, I have to play that bitch
at 480p because the PS3 is too crippled (software or hardware I couldn't care less) to do what the 360 has been doing for 2 years, scaling.

Along with my HDDVD Player and my Cable Box. :P

Well, that TV...:) I picked up an open-box samsung 1080p 40" LCD from bestbuy for super cheap...It's internal scaler is superfast and 720p content looks great on it.

As for your scaling preference, to each their own. With a fixed panel display you really have little choice as to whether non-native resolution is scaled, your only choice is which device does it better (whether it is your internal scaler or some external device). With a CRT, then you have less options as not all CRT's had internal scaling and you were forced to rely on external device

"To be fair..."...Well, not really. I think February is when the patch came out allowing for developers to do the horizontal scaling thing, that essentially meant if developers didn't outright support 1080i there was no option prior to February.

You also have to take into account every bit of information released prior to the official release of the PS3 indicated scaling would not be a problem - the system could do it. It wasn't until Darknight said there might be a problem was anything said, and even then people didn't believe him because the expectation was so prevalent that there would be an internal scaler. This is why people were angry: they had every reason to believe the PS3 would support 1080i. Imagine their surprise when all their new games were being displayed in 480p - other than darknight's post, there was literally no warning.

We're not at odds here, I just want everyone to be able to play any PS3 game at an HD resolution their TV supports. There is nothing about your preferences that should preclude having the option to scale a 720p game to 1080i. Not a single thing.

I would be disappointed if I were you as well. I would be appealing to the games to take advantage of the scaling option you said Sony implemented in Feb.

I would be disappointed if I were you as well. I would be appealing to the games to take advantage of the scaling option you said Sony implemented in Feb.
- Not to be cynical, but game makers need to step up and make their games appealing to the market. If Sony's scaler does exist (hardware/software), then Sony should step up and let every developer know how to use it. After all, they are both partners on this, especially with so many developers going multiconsole.

At best, people wouldn't notice that their TV downscales 720p content on their 1080i TV. At worst, they simply wouldn't buy the game, which some of the people on the AVS forum do.

I think those who are saying they are just stating the facts are missing an important fact: the PS3 is supposed to be an HD Device and from the very beginning every bit of documentation said it supported all HD resolutions. There was the assumption that it should be able to display all games at the output resolutions (not necessarily as native).

Perhaps this was naive on the part of buyers to assume that a 720p game should be output to 1080i in their sets, but everything in the Ps3 documentation said you could set the output to 1080i. Many thought this was no different than ESPN being broadcast in 720p and your cable box would just output it to 1080i.

If I shelled out money for something that was advertised as being HD and supporting all HD resolutions only to later find out that it couldn't, I'd have every right to be mad. How many people face the blu-ray scaling issue which was later resolved? Did they have no right to be angry as well? Luckily, their issue was fixed. The issue is not simply people in this thread should simply be good consumers, concede their earlier purchasing error, and go out and buy a new TV - rather, the issue is these consumers had every reason to believe up front (by both the documentation provided by Sony and previews of the system from gaming magazines) that they would be able to play an HD game at an HD resolution (whether native or not) on any HDTV. Again, the belief was that scaling would be no different for than an HD cable box.

Now before people go off saying this was just a "belief", please remember that it was one facilitated by Sony and by every video game magazine covering the PS3 before its release.


Well, I really hate to copy an entire post to make my little comment on part of it, but after reading every post of this thread wsylvan really understands the whole point of the issue and commented on it more elequently than I ever could.

Thanks!

"First and most obvious would be the tv itself that some are expecting the PS3 to do it for them."

Ding, Ding, Ding we have a winner!

Its simple really, Sony and the PS3 are not bound by any laws that I know of that say they have to compensate for any other outdated equiptment one might own. You wanted a true next gen console and now that you got one your made because the rest of your equiptment is not on par.

"Can you name another HD output device that cannot scale 720p to 1080i out there?"

This questions been asked twice and you guys really have answered your own question but sadley choose not to except it, the answer is obviously your display.

"Can you name another HD output device that cannot scale 720p to 1080i out there?"

This questions been asked twice and you guys really have answered your own question but sadley choose not to except it, the answer is obviously your display.
- Great, since my original comment was misinterpreted by rabid Sony fans, I should have said HD SOURCE device, since the only HD output devices would technically be HDTV's, monitors and projectors.

Care to take another try at it since not all OUTPUT devices will scale, which everyone already knows (or this thread wouldn't exist).

"Can you name another HD source device that cannot scale 720p to 1080i out there?"

It does support all HD resolutions. And it does exactley what the documentation says it does. No where in the documentation does it say that it upscales 720p games to 1080i games. And who believes what they read in gaming magazines :rolleyes: If the game is in 720p then its output in 720p, if the game is in 1080i then its output in 1080i. If your TV does not except 720p then sorry, they
are not responsible for your other purchasing choices.

- Great, since my original comment was misinterpreted by rabid Sony fans, I should have said HD SOURCE device, since the only HD output devices would technically be HDTV's, monitors and projectors.

Care to take another try at it since not all OUTPUT devices will scale, which everyone already knows (or this thread wouldn't exist).

"Can you name another HD source device that cannot scale 720p to 1080i out there?"

Does it matter if the answer is yes or no? If someone digs up an old device that only does 720 will that make you any happier. Of course not. There are 2 problems here. 1. Sony won't upconvert 720 only games for you. 2. Your Tv doesnt accept 720. You only have control over 1 of those problems. Sony basically said in a statement that they would never fix the problem.

Does it matter if the answer is yes or no? If someone digs up an old device that only does 720 will that make you any happier.
- Since the answer is no, it doesn't make me happy one way or another since I'm not affected. It simply shows that there is only one HD source device with this issue, the PS3. Which is what 1080i people have been complaining about.

As I said in a previous post, I hope that Sony steps up and shows their developers how to use the scaler so there won't be any of these issues in the future, even if old games can't be fixed. I would prevent any game purchase doubt based on this simple issue. Isn't that what everyone wants in the end? More PS3's sold and more games sold?

I subscibe to the marketing thinking that a happy customer tells one or two people while a disgruntled customer tells ten times that many. When you go above and beyond the call of duty, you get an even better response.

Not at the moment, but if the PS3 is the only devise on the face of the planet that can not upscale in this way it still doesnt matter, IT DOES NOT HAVE TO!!!! So go buy yourself a 360.

"Sony fans"

Um.... Yeah, this is the Playstation area of the AVS forum.

You know what, The longer this goes on the more I realize that this is becoming a troll
gateway thread.

isaidme, have you actually contributed anything worthwhile to the AVS Forum besides ranting? Looking at your posting history, I would suggest GameFAQs.

Yup developer should be maki ng games in 1080p,. Time to upgrade your TV im afraid. The PS3 isnt a half step into next gen hardware like the 360 is. Everything is better at native resolution anyway.

Looks like you'll need 4 displays then.

One for 720p (which it looks like is the defacto PS3 choice for gaming without scaling)

One for 1080i content (think the majority of what's broadcast)

One for 1080p (BR and HD-DVD)

One for 480p/SD (DVD)

I help people when I can you would know that if you truely went threw all my posts and my PMs. I am not the idiot that wont except the answer so you and your retarted buddys need to stay at GameFAQs, you recomemded it didnt you!

I help people when I can you would know that if you truely went threw all my posts and my PMs. I am not the idiot that wont except the answer so you and your retarted buddys need to stay at GameFAQs, you recomemded it didnt you!
- Thanks. I'll let your speech and childish name calling speak for itself.

BTW, I do belong to GameFAQs and have had an account there since 2001. My point is that this is the AV Science forum, not some playground where little kid's name calling and insults go around.

"Looks like you'll need 4 displays then"

My TV does everything I need it to do. And when the time comes when it no longer will, I will just go buy a TV that does instead of coming on here crying about it and blaming everyone else. ;)

Whats a matter isnt that the response you were fishing for? Thats what Trolls do, they stir up trouble and then when they get it they throw up their hands cowardly as if they have no clue whats going on. I would say that anyone that has had their questions answered over and over and over again is retarded. I call a spade a spade it just is what it is. These threads keep coming up and they keep getting locked because its already been answered time and time again.

It does support all HD resolutions. And it does exactley what the documentation says it does. No where in the documentation does it say that it upscales 720p games to 1080i games. And who believes what they read in gaming magazines :rolleyes: If the game is in 720p then its output in 720p, if the game is in 1080i then its output in 1080i. If your TV does not except 720p then sorry, they
are not responsible for your other purchasing choices.

I am sorry isaidme, I am a little confused here. I am looking at the back of my Ps3 madden and it reads: "Supported HD video output: 480i/720p" The funny thing is, it actually displays as 480p. Now it doesn't say anywhere on the back about "480p" - could this be a misprint since games only output to the resolution they say they output to? I am also looking at my RFOM case, the back again, and curiously it reads: ""Supported HD video output: 720p". Oddly, this one also displays at 480p. No where on the back of RFOM does it even have a "480". Not an "i". Not a "p", except of course after that "720". I must say this leaves me a bit baffled. Clearly you know what you are talking about, so I must admit it is a bit of a puzzle to me how I am managing to play games at a resolution that is not noted on the back of either case.

I guess I am confused. Hasn't some broadcast stations always been 720P? Fox I believe has been 720P from the beginning. Maybe I am mistaken. For those that have 1080i only sets I guess you can't receive 720P over the air (OTA) signals?

Why would manufacturers produce a TV that can't receive a 720P OTA signal? Did broadcasters not use 720P at that time?

The internal tuners would handle the scaling, it was the direct inputs that expected 1080i. The internal tuner functioned like any other external device and handled scaling. This was consistent accross the board for 1080i only displays with internal tuners.

There is really some stunning arrogance and ignorance on display in this thread. 1080i is the original North American HDTV standard, and it's the only resolution that works on every HDTV. Every HD source device that I'm aware of supports scaling to 1080i because of this fact -- that is, every HD source device except the PS3.

NBC and CBS broadcast all of their HD content in 1080i, and they're the networks that have been supporting HD the longest. ABC came later to the party with 720p, and Fox came even later, first limping in with widescreen 480p and only bumping it up to 720p when they were basically embarrassed into it because of all the HD content on the other networks -- so using Fox as some kind of HD template is completely ridiculous.

720p rose in popularity for two reasons: 1) Some broadcasters wanted progressive display so sports and other high-speed visuals would look more solid, but more importantly 2) Flat-screen TVs were shooting upward in popularity, and it was a lot cheaper to make a native 720 flat-screen set than a native 1080 flat-screen set. In essence, economics won out over picture detail.

So, yes, I find it a bit funny that I can watch Blu-Ray movies at more than twice the resolution that a lot of these people slamming my "obsolete" HDTV can, and yet they're telling me (using bad grammar, no less) that I'm behind the times because my display doesn't natively support their crummier, red-headed stepchild resolution, and the PS3 won't automatically upscale 720p content like every other HD source device on the market already does. Yeah, that's my fault. I'm the fool. Whatever. :rolleyes:

And to dpe8598, who claimed to have read the entire thread in the Sony forum about 1080i support for PS3 games -- you keep saying people should be pestering the developers about 1080i support as if it's a new idea, but the very thread you claimed to have read advocates this from start to finish and makes a point of including developer contact information for as many 720p-only games as possible. A fix from Sony would be ideal, but the realistic view has always been to put pressure on developers for 1080 support -- and if you'd actually done what you claimed, you'd already know that.

- Jer

Wsyslvn, FROM displayed at 720p on my TV as would madden. So what is your question again?

Yes I am comming off as arrogant and an A$$ hole but being nice got me no where. In fact the other people that were nice in this thread got no where. I and a few others have made the answer very simple and strait forward yet the people that just want to argue are trying to over complicate things. It doesnt upscale GAMES to 1080i and it doesnt need to, thats why it didnt come up at E3. People have just accepted it or they bought some other console.

Wsyslvn, FROM displayed at 720p on my TV as would madden. So what is your question again?

Well, you see the problem is my TV (a CRT that I currently use) doesn't support 720p. Simply won't take the signal - its the damnedest thing. Funny thing is, I knew it going into the purchase, but since every other cablebox, external tuner, or HD gaming device scales 720p to 1080i, I didn't think it would be a problem. Sorry, that is a bit off topic.

Anyways...so no where, anywhere, does either game (Madden or RFOM) say it supports 480p. Damnedest thing, I sware, it's just per-culuar, these games display in 480p. Now, earlier, just a few posts ago as a matter of fact, you said that all games display at the resolutions they says they do. Well, my TV won't accept 720p, and neither game says it outputs to 480p, so I am a bit parplexed as to why it is displaying at 480p....I mean, it shouldn't, should it?

"Looks like you'll need 4 displays then"

My TV does everything I need it to do. And when the time comes when it no longer will, I will just go buy a TV that does instead of coming on here crying about it and blaming everyone else. ;)

Didn't you say, "everything is better at native resolution"? You are likely scaling the hell out of everything but one resolution only at the display level rather than the device level hence my previous post. For the record, the quality of scaling at the display level on average is abysmal compared to even very mediocre external devices like a $60 DVD player (visit the video processor forum sometime to find out how higher end scaling is handled by a dedicated device). The issue is that the PS3 is the ONLY "device" which fails to provide scaling and really its even more important in the console/gaming world due to the possibility of timing lag introduced in an external process (think Samsung's old DLPs). Once again, you'll see a "gaming mode" on some dedicated external scalers to utilize a less intensive process (lower quality) specifically so this doesn't happen. For consoles, it makes a whole lot of sense that scaling be handled on board rather than externally, moreso than any other class of device.

Also I've read your posts in this thread and please take this to heart, you can improve the quality of this thread, forum, and world in general if you listen more and talk less when you have absolutely no clue what you are discussing. Your posts in this thread make it blatantly obvious you don't know the first thing about video and you sound like a 16 year old kid with a new combination Sony/Tribal Band tattoo.

There is really some stunning arrogance and ignorance on display in this thread.

Unfortunately we now have the issue of "gamers with no A/V knowledge" populating this forum rather than "home theater fans who enjoy playing games in their home theaters". One group can hold a discussion and had an average age of 35+ a few years back. The other group resembles a bunch of snot nosed teens who need to be slapped. I leave you to figure out which is which but suffice to say Gamefaqs came to AVS in the past 2 years and hasn't yet left.

Thats just it, I dont need to know all the technical jargen. You guys are over complicating things when all you have to apply here is common sense. Obviously I have listened just as much as I have talked, this is very exausting yet im still here. The kids here are the ones that refuse to except that things are just the way they are and they can buy the PS3 or not. Again its simple, so you can try and be swauve all you want and confuse yourself and others with all the crap you want to. The facts are in black and white here. Ive never been to GameFAQs and I would bet dollars to donuts thats where the majority of xbox gamers on this forum came from.

Unfortunately we now have the issue of "gamers with no A/V knowledge" populating this forum rather than "home theater fans who enjoy playing games in their home theaters". One group can hold a discussion and had an average age of 35+ a few years back. The other group resembles a bunch of snot nosed teens who need to be slapped. I leave you to figure out which is which but suffice to say Gamefaqs came to AVS in the past 2 years and hasn't yet left.

The ignorance flows both ways amigo. When I first came here to do research on HDTVs that would be compatible with the upcoming PS3, I can tell you first hand that the A/V non-gaming crowd were almost universally ignorant of the issues I needed to know about. Specifically, they would go on and on about how there's no reason to worry about 1080i sets for 1080P content because it looks the same. Technically that's true, but they ignored the real possibility of gameplay lag being introduced in the conversion for 1080i-input HDTVs.

With videogames there is more than just the passive experience of looking at the visuals and hearing the audio as you well know. I would debate some of these guys about being more open minded about the various types of tech entertainment out there, and in the end had to do my own research to answer my questions.

Neither side has all the answers, so it doesn't serve anyone well for one group to have a snobbish attitude towards another group just because they use their TVs for something more than HD movies and TiVo recording.

People need to be slaped in your mind, well if that isnt the pot calling the kettle black then I dont know what is.

Thats just it, I dont need to know all the technical jargen. You guys are over complicating things when all you have to apply here is common sense.
- Are you also a selective reader? As I said before, the reason all this technical jargon is here is because this is the AV Science Forum, not the GameFAQs forum. It's not overcomplicated to us.

The kids here are the ones that refuse to except that things are just the way they are and they can buy the PS3 or not. Again its simple, so you can try and be swauve all you want and confuse yourself and others with all the crap you want to.
- Please take this as constructive criticism, but you should really use the SpellCheck button before you post. It will make your posts infinitely more comprehensible. I wasn't sure if you meant "refuse to expect" or "refuse to "accept" at first glance.

Ive never been to GameFAQs and I would bet dollars to donuts thats where the majority of xbox gamers on this forum came from.
- I suggest getting an account there then. There are dedicated forums for each and I promise you'll almost never hear about 1080i scaling issues. Not to mention it's a MUCH better videogame site than this one since it has topics about everything. Like I said before, I've been a member there since 2001.

There is nothing wrong with my setup. Everything looks and performs as it should.

Unfortunately we now have the issue of "gamers with no A/V knowledge" populating this forum rather than "home theater fans who enjoy playing games in their home theaters". One group can hold a discussion and had an average age of 35+ a few years back. The other group resembles a bunch of snot nosed teens who need to be slapped. I leave you to figure out which is which but suffice to say Gamefaqs came to AVS in the past 2 years and hasn't yet left.

I'm a home theater fan. I enjoy discussing home theater issues and offering advice on how they can be worked out. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like thats what the people in this thread w/ 1080i TVs want. Instead, it seems like they want to beat a dead horse over and over again. Seriously, its starting to smell like troll in here. Here is some reasonable advice if this is really an issue for you.

1. Contact games manufacturers and get on their ass to make sure the games you like will be supported.

2. Deal w/ 480 on the games (I dont think there will be that many) that come out in the future that don't support 1080i.

3. Buy a new TV.

I would say that you should appeal to Sony, but that has been done. Do a google search, Sony has responded to this issue by stating that they have no plans to resolve this issue further and that the games should do it. Your welcome to hate Sony all you want because of this issue, but that is reality.

"Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like thats what the people in this thread w/ 1080i TVs want. "

Exactley.

The reason all this technical jargon is here is because this is the AV Science Forum, not the GameFAQs forum. It's not overcomplicated to us.

If its not over complicated to you guys then why does this go on and on?
You dont have to be a complete HT Geek in order to get good results. Its
ok to turn everything into easy to understand explanations and answers
but when even that doesnt work, then a person is just wanting to argue.

As far as the spelling goes yeah, I get in a hurry.

As far as GameFAQs goes ive read too many bad things about the place and Ive seen
too much crap go on in the Xbox forum here that suggests that alot of those guys hang
out there.

Well, it's really simple: If you can't deal with it, sell your PS3.
Big corporations only understand things that hurt their finances.
All that complaining on some Internet forum is wasted energy.

Well, you see the problem is my TV (a CRT that I currently use) doesn't support 720p. Simply won't take the signal - its the damnedest thing.

Some people would say: "What? Your TV does not have a $1 chip that would allow it to convert 720p to 1080i!?"

The reason all this technical jargon is here is because this is the AV Science Forum, not the GameFAQs forum. It's not overcomplicated to us.

If its not over complicated to you guys then why does this go on and on?
You dont have to be a complete HT Geek in order to get good results. Its
ok to turn everything into easy to understand explanations and answers
but when even that doesnt work, then a person is just wanting to argue.

As far as the spelling goes yeah, I get in a hurry.

As far as GameFAQs goes ive read too many bad things about the place and Ive seen
too much crap go on in the Xbox forum here that suggests that alot of those guys hang
out there.


Here's reality. YOU don't have the answer. That's why this is going on and on. You along with a couple other posters have a "That's the way it is, just deal with it" attitude that isn't an answer. That's just your opinion.

FACT: Sony screwed the pooch on this one. Face it. A 600 dollar console that can't output 720p games in 1080i. Fabulous.

FACT: Sony will loose customers over this.

FACT: Sony has been ignoring this issue and pushing it on the developers to fix.


The point of this thread is to find out if Sony is working on the issue. This thread is not about buying a new 1080p TV so you can play PS3 games in a higher resolution than 480p.

Stay on topic please.

Here's reality. YOU don't have the answer. That's why this is going on and on. You along with a couple other posters have a "That's the way it is, just deal with it" attitude that isn't an answer. That's just your opinion.

FACT: Sony screwed the pooch on this one. Face it. A 600 dollar console that can't output 720p games in 1080i. Fabulous.

FACT: Sony will loose customers over this.

FACT: Sony has been ignoring this issue and pushing it on the developers to fix.


The point of this thread is to find out if Sony is working on the issue. This thread is not about buying a new 1080p TV so you can play PS3 games in a higher resolution than 480p.

Stay on topic please.

Sony is not working on this issue. Hope that clears it up and we can bury the poor dead horse.

Sony is not working on this issue. Hope that clears it up and we can bury the poor dead horse.


Source?

Source?

You answered your own question. You said "FACT: Sony has been ignoring this issue..."

Obviously they are not working on it. I'm glad we cleared that up. Your right, Sony is a terrible company :rolleyes: . Moving on....

It's pretty clear that Sony decided it should be up to the developer to decide at what resolution to output to. I doubt they will ever include hardware scaling, even if it is possible with the RSX (should be). The reason for that is, there is already a display option to set the resolution, and I doubt they would add another scaling layer to that. Also, that would introduce video lag (which is why GH2 is virtually unplayable on the 360, compared to the PS2).

would add another scaling layer to that. Also, that would introduce video lag (which is why GH2 is virtually unplayable on the 360, compared to the PS2).

ROFL.

Yeah, whatever buddy......keep sipping that Kool-Aid.

It's pretty clear that Sony decided it should be up to the developer to decide at what resolution to output to. I doubt they will ever include hardware scaling, even if it is possible with the RSX (should be). The reason for that is, there is already a display option to set the resolution, and I doubt they would add another scaling layer to that. Also, that would introduce video lag (which is why GH2 is virtually unplayable on the 360, compared to the PS2).

Or your own setup has something introducing lag into the game? The game plays identical on 360 and ps2(I own both) for me plus the lag calibrator should fix any lag issue you have.

Well its official now all the xbox fanboys are here, big suprise. You guys are looking for a complicated answer when there isnt one to be had. I dont have the official answer but again common sense would tell you that they dont see the need to upscale for you and its their right to feel this way. I for one dont need the PS3 to upscale 720p games. There is no future in upscaling as far as I am concerned. If you dont like what they are offering you then buy something else.

Upscaling is just a service provided until everything is standardized. IMO that means untill everyone has a display that can accept 720p up to 1080+.

Well its official now all the xbox fanboys are here, big suprise. You guys are looking for a complicated answer when there isnt one to be had. I dont have the official answer but again common sense would tell you that they dont see the need to upscale for you and its their right to feel this way. I for one dont need the PS3 to upscale 720p games. There is no future in upscaling as far as I am concerned. If you dont like what they are offering you then buy something else.
Alot of people are indeed buying something else. You'd think Sony would want people to buy their product instead, though.

Ya Tenk, Sony doesn't want people to buy their console, you cracked the code

Ya Tenk, Sony doesn't want people to buy their console, you cracked the code
Of course they do, but they have to realize now that there are people that are not buying PS3's right now because they can't play 720p games in HD. Are they going to cater to those people? Nope. It's as simple as that. They're going to pawn it off to the developers, via a pretty wonky workaround.

OK Tenk, so they are "pawning" it off to developers. OK, so some people might not buy a PS3 because of this. Established. anything new to add? Didn't think so, the only reason to keep repeating that over and over again is to troll.

Man, this thread has become just like the last Lord of the Rings movie: Everytime you think you've reached the end there is is new scene that contributes nothing to the overall movie.

OK Tenk, so they are "pawning" it off to developers. OK, so some people might not buy a PS3 because of this. Established. anything new to add? Didn't think so, the only reason to keep repeating that over and over again is to troll.
I thought this thread was to discuss the PS3 scaling issues the impact of those isuues.

I didn't realize establishing fact was trolling. I think it's funny that anyone upset with the issue and voices as such is being seen in the wrong. It's been that way with this topic since the launch pf the PS3.

Sony already said: "There is no issue. Upgrade your television for one that supports 720p and you'll see that there is no issue". :p

Sony basically said in a statement that they would never fix the problem.
Could you please give a source for this "statement" that Sony gave about this issue?

I have never heard about any such statement. The last I heard was that Sony was working on a fix. Obviously there is a very good chance that isn't true, but until I hear different I will continue to hold Sony accountable for this problem.

I think part of the problem is that Sony has said NOTHING about this, so we only have spculation as to whether or not they are even working on it. Many people on the fence about buying the PS3 could finaly make a decision if only Sony would say whether or not we as a consumer should ever expect a fix to this issue

for those of you upset that someone with a problem that you do not share are seeking information and support about that problem, you could always just not participate in this particular thread, that would be a solution the your problem wouldn't it?

I thought this thread was to discuss the PS3 scaling issues the impact of those isuues.

I didn't realize establishing fact was trolling. I think it's funny that anyone upset with the issue and voices as such is being seen in the wrong. It's been that way with this topic since the launch pf the PS3.

There is nothing wrong w/ throwing out a complaint. There is nothing wrong w/ discussing an issue or shortcoming of the PS3. However, there is nothing new to add here. Just stating over and over (as has been done in this thread) that these TVs can't get 1080i on 720p games via the PS3 is pure trolling.

If you have something NEW to add to this thread, great! I'm all for that, otherwise go back under your bridge.

I think part of the problem is that Sony has said NOTHING about this, so we only have spculation as to whether or not they are even working on it. Many people on the fence about buying the PS3 could finaly make a decision if only Sony would say whether or not we as a consumer should ever expect a fix to this issue

for those of you upset that someone with a problem that you do not share are seeking information and support about that problem, you could always just not participate in this particular thread, that would be a solution the your problem wouldn't it?

"Seeking information and support." LMFAO. Are you serious? Here is the ONLY info available on this:

First Sony says they are working on it:

http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/21/sony-begrudgingly-promises-fix-for-ps3-720p-output-issues/

Next Sony retracts the statement:

http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/25/sony-retracts-1080i-fix-statement-leaving-customers-in-lurch/

That is all there is on the subject. Any new information would be welcome, but that information is months old. To the original poster, no, this was not discussed at E3 according to any website or any podcast I've listened to. So far no one has indicated that it was discussed at E3. The bottom line is the same, any additional discussion is beating a dead horse.

There is nothing wrong w/ throwing out a complaint. There is nothing wrong w/ discussing an issue or shortcoming of the PS3. However, there is nothing new to add here. Just stating over and over (as has been done in this thread) that these TVs can't get 1080i on 720p games via the PS3 is pure trolling.

If you have something NEW to add to this thread, great! I'm all for that, otherwise go back under your bridge.
Oh, please. Stop acting like you've been a wealth of new info in this thread. Someone made the statement that people should look elsewhere if they're not happy with the PS3. I made the statement in respone that Sony should want to cater to their potential customers, and the scaling issue affects potentials customers- a point that seems to be lost around here. And now I'm a troll? Get out of here. I haven't said anything trollish, and you attack me for no reason.

Oh, please. Stop acting like you've been a wealth of new info in this thread. Someone made the statement that people should look elsewhere if they're not happy with the PS3. I made the statement in respone that Sony should want to cater to their potential customers, and the scaling issue affects potentials customers- a point that seems to be lost around here. And now I'm a troll? Get out of here. I haven't said anything trollish, and you attack me for no reason.

I'm not attacking you, your points have been established.

- Sony should, in your opinion, cater to potential customers.

OK, makes sense to me, no one is disagreeing w/ that. Your input is noted. If you truly are not a troll, as you say, than I dont see any reason for you to repeat your opinion any more.

I hereby propose a vote for the following:

1. All in favor that the PS3 should support scaling between ALL HD Resolutions so that ALL HD Game content can be diplayed at an HD resolution, say AYE.

All opposed, say NEIGH.

2. All in favor of Sony ACTUALLY resolving scaling issues in PS3 game not supporting 1080i, say AYE.

All opposed, say NEIGH.

3. All in favor of the right of PS3 owners affected by resolution problems to voice their complaints, say AYE.

All opposed say, NEIGH.

In the event all three items should be answered with an "AYE" vote, participants in this thread will hereby democratically arrive at the conclusion that Sony should resolve HD game resolution problems. In the event the a resounding number of votes are "NEIGH", then the participants will have indicated that the HD resolution issue is not important and Sony should take no action to remedy it.

1. Aye
2. Aye
3. Aye

I hereby propose a vote for the following:

1. All in favor that the PS3 should support scaling between ALL HD Resolutions so that ALL HD Game content can be diplayed at an HD resolution, say AYE.

All opposed, say NEIGH.

2. All in favor of Sony ACTUALLY resolving scaling issues in PS3 game not supporting 1080i, say AYE.

All opposed, say NEIGH.

3. All in favor of the right of PS3 owners affected by resolution problems to voice their complaints, say AYE.

All opposed say, NEIGH.

In the event all three items should be answered with an "AYE" vote, participants in this thread will hereby democratically arrive at the conclusion that Sony should resolve HD game resolution problems. In the event the a resounding number of votes are "NEIGH", then the participants will have indicated that the HD resolution issue is not important and Sony should take no action to remedy it.

LOL, at least you can add some humor to this repetitive thread.

1. Aye
2. Aye
3. Aye

You will have a tough time pulling my Sony CRT RPTV professional ISF away. I'd put its PQ against any plasma/lcd. Problem it is a 1080i native set that does not accept 720p and scales the signal to 480p.

LOL, at least you can add some humor to this repetitive thread.

That is not exactly a vote, is it? ;)

Now is the time of the reckoning! Let democratic ideals and republican sentiments finally put this issue to rest! Now, my brothers*, is the time where civilized men* resolve this debate through a civilized means! Cast your vote, I urge you! Partake in this great experiment in democracy and let our collective voices arise above those of the tyrants who would hold us back from our right to have games scaled other HD resolutions!!


Vote You "AYE" in the proposed vote to rule out the tyranny of evil men**!





*Disclaimer: All gendered nouns are masculine in order to capture the gendered hegemony of early democratic thinkers. The author in no way endorses androcentric views of the social universe.

**Disclaimer: Men may in fact be evil. This is not to say women are not evil, just that maybe men are more evil. The historical record tends to support this, however, because of androcentric political arrangements, women may not have had an equal opportunity to be evil.

People please read this thread (http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=ps3&message.id=1543758#M1543758).
Maybe it was posted here before, if so I apologize.
It pretty much answers any of the remaining questions.
In particular please read the part where it says "we are voicing our opinion that Sony should ADD support for this, we are not asking for Sony to take anything away so if you don't support this, kindly move on"

"Seeking information and support." LMFAO. Are you serious? Here is the ONLY info available on this:

First Sony says they are working on it:

http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/21/sony-begrudgingly-promises-fix-for-ps3-720p-output-issues/

Next Sony retracts the statement:

http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/25/sony-retracts-1080i-fix-statement-leaving-customers-in-lurch/

That is all there is on the subject. Any new information would be welcome, but that information is months old. To the original poster, no, this was not discussed at E3 according to any website or any podcast I've listened to. So far no one has indicated that it was discussed at E3. The bottom line is the same, any additional discussion is beating a dead horse.
Neither one of those links says anything about Sony making a statement saying they would never fix the problem as you stated earlier. Do you in fact have a source for that statement?

Just stating over and over (as has been done in this thread) that these TVs can't get 1080i on 720p games via the PS3 is pure trolling.

If you have something NEW to add to this thread, great! I'm all for that, otherwise go back under your bridge.
Hmm...let's see what new and exciting things you've contributed to this thread, dpe8598...

Put more energy towards the game manufacturers, not Sony.
---
You should be appealing to the games manufacturers, because they are the ones that can change this right now.
---
I think your energy would be better spent appealing to games manufacturers
---
I would be appealing to the games to take advantage of the scaling option you said Sony implemented in Feb.
---
Contact games manufacturers and get on their ass to make sure the games you like will be supported.
...and...

There is no reason to believe sony will change anything at this point.
---
There is no reason whatsoever to believe Sony will do anything about this
---
Sony basically said in a statement that they would never fix the problem.
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Sony has responded to this issue by stating that they have no plans to resolve this issue further
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Sony is not working on this issue.
---
Obviously they are not working on it.
...and...

it seems like they want to beat a dead horse over and over again. Seriously, its starting to smell like troll in here.
---
Hope that clears it up and we can bury the poor dead horse.
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the only reason to keep repeating that over and over again is to troll.
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The bottom line is the same, any additional discussion is beating a dead horse.
---
If you truly are not a troll, as you say, than I dont see any reason for you to repeat your opinion any more.

Since you obviously match your own definition of a troll, perhaps you should take your own advice.

- Jer

Jhaines, I am a galant knight fighting against the tyrany that is you trolls in this thread. My threads act as a beacon of hope to all that would like to discuss the PS3 (both positive and negative) without having to read through the same post over and over again about how Sony sucks and is losing customers. Thank goodness the AVS forum can partake in my wisdom, because woe to those that do not heed it.

Look, the bottom line is the chip is there and it's fully capable of upscaling to 1080 as any other hardware scaler allows you to do. It's just for some reason Sony limits access to that scaler. The chip is in there, so we should not be yelling at them to add the hardware into the system. What we should be doing is yelling at them to allow the functionality. So no matter how you slice it, the chip is in there and I hope people start realizing there is a difference.Has anyone confirmed the mystery chip is the Toshiba Super Companion Chip or at least some programmable I/O DSP? NDA be damned!

This issue does not affect me for the record, but the topic is interesting.

Yes, I think it is terribly overrepresented. Still, you make a good point, 57 people on this site is a lot.

Overrepresented how? Even if the percentage here is 2X more than the entire consumer market, Sony is being very stupid ignoring 22% of the entire HDTV market. Sony screwed the pooch on this, plain and simple.

The last thing you want to do w/hi-tech hardware is piss off the early adopters.

Also, I would still argue that very few people with HDTVs still have the CRT sets (I know I dont know any).

Hardly an argument. I know seven people that have 1080i-only HD RPTVs. I know one other person with an HDTV and he bought a plasma last June.

Now, approximately 30% have sets and I guarantee you a lot of those are people from the original 10% that have upgraded

Huh? At most it's 1 of 3, assuming every person bought a new one, and that constitutes 'a lot'?

Considering it's price in the day, a 1080i-only HDTV was a very expensive purchase. Why do you think people would be willing to 'upgrade' (read, discard and replace) a TV that likely cost in the $3000+ range? Sure, you'll get some hardware geeks replacing for the latest-and-greatest, but that's hardly a large percentage of early adopters...particularly considering those old RPTVs have pictures that still look better than a lot of the FP stuff on the market now.

If I'm forced to move and can't accommodate the size or wind up with a wall of West facing floor to ceiling glass, I'll get something else, otherwise they will pry my Mits from my cold dead hands. Many people on here feel exactly the same way and the only issue that's ever come up with these sets is the PS3's lack of scaling (every other device in existence has worked fine). Of all the people I know with 1080i RPTVs, I don't know a single one who has "upgraded". Everyone I know is still very happy and sees no reason outside of form factor to upgrade (none from the dedicated AV guys to the casual movie watcher see better picture quality in the new displays). Several have bought LCDs and Plasmas for other rooms but I don't know a single one who has changed over the main display (and this includes a guy who bought a plasma for the bedroom when they were $5K and has gone through 4 Ferraris in the past 5 years).

If I'm forced to move and can't accommodate the size or wind up with a wall of West facing floor to ceiling glass, I'll get something else, otherwise they will pry my Mits from my cold dead hands. Many people on here feel exactly the same way and the only issue that's ever come up with these sets is the PS3's lack of scaling (every other device in existence has worked fine). Of all the people I know with 1080i RPTVs, I don't know a single one who has "upgraded". Everyone I know is still very happy and sees no reason outside of form factor to upgrade (none from the dedicated AV guys to the casual movie watcher see better picture quality in the new displays). Several have bought LCDs and Plasmas for other rooms but I don't know a single one who has changed over the main display (and this includes a guy who bought a plasma for the bedroom when they were $5K and has gone through 4 Ferraris in the past 5 years).

For some reason this thread really has gotten to me and pisses me off, although I am on the side that says tough crap. This really is BS and many on here by their own admission, seemingly without realizing it, are saying it is their display that is just as at fault, but they want to blame something else as a scapegoat.

Chris, look at what you have said above and I quote:'' Many people on here feel exactly the same way and the only issue that's ever come up with these sets is the PS3's lack of scaling (every other device in existence has worked fine".

Reread and think it over what you are saying. Again, I reiterate what you are saying. "These sets"! You are right the issue is with your set as much if not more than the PS3 not doing what you want. Other sets with the PS3 connected don't have this issue.

I said it earlier and will say it again. I bought 788p LCD RPTV in 2004 with some research and good advice from a salesman who had the knowledge enough to know 720p would be downcoverted to 480p on a set that only accepts 480i,p and 1080i.

And enough with the fanboy, Sony and PS3 defense comments as those are pure BS. My focus is on where the problem lies and not deflecting it, the sets.

Overrepresented how? Even if the percentage here is 2X more than the entire consumer market, Sony is being very stupid ignoring 22% of the entire HDTV market. Sony screwed the pooch on this, plain and simple.

The last thing you want to do w/hi-tech hardware is piss off the early adopters.



Hardly an argument. I know seven people that have 1080i-only HD RPTVs. I know one other person with an HDTV and he bought a plasma last June.



Huh? At most it's 1 of 3, assuming every person bought a new one, and that constitutes 'a lot'?

Considering it's price in the day, a 1080i-only HDTV was a very expensive purchase. Why do you think people would be willing to 'upgrade' (read, discard and replace) a TV that likely cost in the $3000+ range? Sure, you'll get some hardware geeks replacing for the latest-and-greatest, but that's hardly a large percentage of early adopters...particularly considering those old RPTVs have pictures that still look better than a lot of the FP stuff on the market now.

OK, lets assume you are right about everything you say. So? So what? I happen to disagree w/ you and I happen to think very few people have 1080i sets, but lets just play a long. Maybe your right, maybe this is a HUGE issue. Well, what now?

Nothing, Sony isnt going to fix your issue. Get a new TV, complain to the game manufacturers, or get rid of your PS3. Even according to all of the complainers on this thread you dont think Sony is going to fix your problem. Seems pretty simple to me.

If I'm forced to move and can't accommodate the size or wind up with a wall of West facing floor to ceiling glass, I'll get something else, otherwise they will pry my Mits from my cold dead hands. Many people on here feel exactly the same way and the only issue that's ever come up with these sets is the PS3's lack of scaling (every other device in existence has worked fine). Of all the people I know with 1080i RPTVs, I don't know a single one who has "upgraded". Everyone I know is still very happy and sees no reason outside of form factor to upgrade (none from the dedicated AV guys to the casual movie watcher see better picture quality in the new displays). Several have bought LCDs and Plasmas for other rooms but I don't know a single one who has changed over the main display (and this includes a guy who bought a plasma for the bedroom when they were $5K and has gone through 4 Ferraris in the past 5 years).

OK then youve made your choice. Deal w/ 480 on 720 games or get rid of your PS3. Seems pretty simple to me.

See, ultimately, none of the haters here want to listen to your real options, because what your looking for is someone to disagree w/ you on all your hating. You dont like it when I agree w/ you that Sony could have done better here, because your not interested in solutions, your interested in hating.

See, the truth of the matter is that it would be better for Sony if they had provided a solution for you people w/ old HDTVs. Well, they didnt. You have options. Complain to the games manufacturers, because they can and are willing to actually fix the problem, buy a new TV, or get rid of your PS3.

See to me there are only 2 reasons to still be complaining about this issue.

1. Your the kind of person that just loves misery. Misery loves company. "Hmm, my set won't work well w/ the PS3, this sux, I have an idea, I will bitch and bitch and bitch totally ignoring the fact that Sony is not going to change this issue. Also totally ignoring the fact that the games manufacturers actually can fix this issue, but like any well diagnosed Axis 1 disorder bozo, its easier to bitch than it is to actually do something that might work in your favor.

2. Your just trolling.

Wowsers. What the heck happened to this thread? Man, I was only curious if anybody had actually questioned Sony on this subject, and if they had any kind of response to it. That was it. Nothing more. Only reason I asked that, is because during e3, Sony representitives get interviewed over and over by all kinds of various websites, bloggers, etc, etc.

Personally, I've given up on some kind of fix for the current PS3's in the market. I don't think this is something that can be fixed with any firmware patch. If it could, then it would have already been fixed by now. It's obviously much more complicated than that, and it appears that maybe there was an engineering error in the design of the system that makes it's scaling chip useless in real world applications.

Let's get beyond all that. There could still be a solution for us 1080i only owners. If Sony were to simply add a $1 chip to a future hardware revision of the PS3, then us 1080i/480p owners could sell our current PS3's (at a loss, I might add), and buy the new unit that has the chip we need. Sure, we might take a $300 hit on the whole transaction, but in the long run, it might be worth it. Some will surely say that the $300 would be better spent on a new HDTV, but for me that wouldn't be the case. I have a custom designed entertainment center that is built around a 51 inch Sony that is not a table top. All the new HDTV's in the 50 inch range are table top designs. This would mean that from a WAF, I would have to have the guy that custom designed the entertainment center to custom design a TV stand that would fit in with the look of the entertainment center, and then on top of that, I still need to buy the dang TV. So, in my situation, I would rather ride out the current TV as long as possible, and then deal with the ramifications after that. For others that might be in the market to upgrade their TV's, maybe the $300 would be better spent going towards a new set. I'm not sure. I do know that most of us with the 1080i/480p sets have HDTV's that aren't table top, so we not only need to account for the TV itself, but also the stand. That normally adds another $200 to $400 on top.

Anywho, that's just my take on the matter.

Wowsers. What the heck happened to this thread? Man, I was only curious if anybody had actually questioned Sony on this subject, and if they had any kind of response to it. That was it. Nothing more. Only reason I asked that, is because during e3, Sony representitives get interviewed over and over by all kinds of various websites, bloggers, etc, etc.

Personally, I've given up on some kind of fix for the current PS3's in the market. I don't think this is something that can be fixed with any firmware patch. If it could, then it would have already been fixed by now. It's obviously much more complicated than that, and it appears that maybe there was an engineering error in the design of the system that makes it's scaling chip useless in real world applications.

Let's get beyond all that. There could still be a solution for us 1080i only owners. If Sony were to simply add a $1 chip to a future hardware revision of the PS3, then us 1080i/480p owners could sell our current PS3's (at a loss, I might add), and buy the new unit that has the chip we need. Sure, we might take a $300 hit on the whole transaction, but in the long run, it might be worth it. Some will surely say that the $300 would be better spent on a new HDTV, but for me that wouldn't be the case. I have a custom designed entertainment center that is built around a 51 inch Sony that is not a table top. All the new HDTV's in the 50 inch range are table top designs. This would mean that from a WAF, I would have to have the guy that custom designed the entertainment center to custom design a TV stand that would fit in with the look of the entertainment center, and then on top of that, I still need to buy the dang TV. So, in my situation, I would rather ride out the current TV as long as possible, and then deal with the ramifications after that. For others that might be in the market to upgrade their TV's, maybe the $300 would be better spent going towards a new set. I'm not sure. I do know that most of us with the 1080i/480p sets have HDTV's that aren't table top, so we not only need to account for the TV itself, but also the stand. That normally adds another $200 to $400 on top.

Anywho, that's just my take on the matter.

You are being far too pragmatic here...trying to deal with the situation for what it is rather than what it should or ought to be. ;)

The sad thing is no matter how much I would like it fixed, I fully anticipate the only solution being that developers develop the problems away in future games. It is unclear how much time it would take to implement the February scaling solution, there has only been a couple of game released to have apparently used it. If this holds true, I think the real question is was the inability to play first gen games that scaled 720p to 480p on 1080i Tv's so detrimental to your gaming experience that you don't have faith future games and want to abandon the platform before the next round of games that are hitting this fall. The sad thing is, all any people want to to is utilize there HD equipment to the best of its ability. There happens to be a very unfortunate occurrence in which people with a 1080i HDTV currently can't fully utilize it with some games and that, frankly, sucks. Unfortunately, I think this problem will have to be "developed" away as it is quite clear either Sony can't or won't implement a fix that retroactively applies to the games this seems to be a problem with (I am not inclined the lack of a fix is do to the absence of the will to fix it).

All this being said, I am rather disappointed in the way people have treated each other throughout this debate. Efforts have been made to try to make people feel stupid in there purchases, make people feel better about themselves for having some deep foresight that in someway justifies there sense of superiority, and efforts have been made to delegitimate the topic in general from being something worthy of discussion. Instead of say, "Man, that sucks, RFOM looks better in 720p. Maybe Sony will address this? Hey, have you looked at the Gefen HTS unit, it might be able to help you out if you are committed to your TV", we get something like: "You should have known better, I did after a person helped me at the store, or you should have researched it better"

Surprisingly, many of us researched the hell out of it before the purchase and to the best of my knowledge every single bit of coverage noted the system would scale games to your TV's HD resolution. Maybe we weren't so lucky to have Ted the TV guy give us some advice at the Electronics store. Maybe Ted's advise was completely fortuitous, especially since every other external HD device (with the exception of the rare camcorder mentioned earlier in this thread) scales the content. I am glad Ted could help, but this hardly serves as a generalizable statement attesting to some superior research skills a particular consumer has.

People keep saying there was "no reason" to believe this or that...Actually, there was every reason to believe a games would be scaled. 1. Sony's video output documentation is ambiguous on the subject. 2. Every preview of the system said it scaled games. 3. Every other external HD device scales content. 1. Hardly indicates a "reason" to believe a scaler was absent. 2 & 3 provide a "reasonable expectation" that the function should be present. People keep assuming these Ps3 owners are just imagining features they want and complaining about there absence: This simply is not the case.


But alas, it may be that those who have been treating the members of this forum with this problem like crap are right in the sense that ultimately sony is not adressing this on a system wide level that retroactively affects games and that developers will be left to sort it out.

Anthony1...I am sorry to here you had they same problem I had, that sucks. If you haven't already looked at the Gefen HTS unit, it might help you out. I read in the video processor area that the updated firmware improves the quality over the initial release. It is certainly cheaper than alternative external scalers.

People keep saying there was "no reason" to believe this or that...Actually, there was every reason to believe a games would be scaled. 1. Sony's video output documentation is ambiguous on the subject. 2. Every preview of the system said it scaled games. 3. Every other external HD device scales content. 1. Hardly indicates a "reason" to believe a scaler was absent. 2 & 3 provide a "reasonable expectation" that the function should be present. People keep assuming these Ps3 owners are just imagining features they want and complaining about there absence: This simply is not the case.


1) What video documentation are you referring to?
2) Sony not once stated this to my knowledge. It was shoddy game journalist reporting if anything that presented false info based on assumption.
3) This is definitely true though.

People assumed many things before the launch regardless if there was a basis for it or not. I told people long before the launch that there was no guarentee of scaling and that it was game dependent. I gave ample warning and people who read it shouldn't have been surprised by it as a result.

I don't understand the argument about people making incorrect assumptions. It would be like if a major auto manufacturer announced a new car, and you assumed that it rolled on tires, because all the other cars do. During development, the manufacturer never said anything in particular about the wheels. Later, when the car finally came out, you learned that it actually sat on metal skids. You'd be surprised, and you might learn of some drawbacks due to this.

Was your original assumption out of line? Not really. Sony made some design or implementation decisions which are non-standard for current high definition source devices (i.e. a lack of true arbitrary scaling).

HDTV are now cheap these days...If you can afford it get a real 1080p TV! Why are people still using SDTVs or TVs that do not support 720p? These are junk TVs. Get rid of them and get with what is new.

You really need 1080p now since just about everything will upscale to 1080p on the PS3...ie DVD, PS1/PS2 games....Blurays are native 1080p..

Why are people still not going 1080p yet?

HDTV are now cheap these days...If you can afford it get a real 1080p TV! Why are people still using SDTVs or TVs that do not support 720p? These are junk TVs. Get rid of them and get with what is new.

You really need 1080p now since just about everything will upscale to 1080p on the PS3...ie DVD, PS1/PS2 games....Blurays are native 1080p..

Why are people still not going 1080p yet?

Because blurays look every bit as detailed on my 1080i CRT with better black level performace

because when watching cable all my hd channels whether native 1080i (most HD channels are) or upscaled 720p (thank you free set top box) it looks just as fantastic as my buddies 1080p display and at times better (black levels again)

because standard def channels look worlds better on my crt than on any 1080p flat pannel

because my definition of NEED is not the same as yours
I do not need a 1080p display to enjoy 1080hd content 1080i is still great
a ps3 game NEEDS to display in 1080i in order for me to buy it

I don't understand the argument about people making incorrect assumptions. It would be like if a major auto manufacturer announced a new car, and you assumed that it rolled on tires, because all the other cars do. During development, the manufacturer never said anything in particular about the wheels. Later, when the car finally came out, you learned that it actually sat on metal skids. You'd be surprised, and you might learn of some drawbacks due to this.

Was your original assumption out of line? Not really. Sony made some design or implementation decisions which are non-standard for current high definition source devices (i.e. a lack of true arbitrary scaling).

Because out of the four consoles that have been able to display HD resolutions, only one console had the ability to scale the way people are trying to hold a standard to.

Because blurays look every bit as detailed on my 1080i CRT with better black level performace

because when watching cable all my hd channels whether native 1080i (most HD channels are) or upscaled 720p (thank you free set top box) it looks just as fantastic as my buddies 1080p display and at times better (black levels again)

because standard def channels look worlds better on my crt than on any 1080p flat pannel

because my definition of NEED is not the same as yours
I do not need a 1080p display to enjoy 1080hd content 1080i is still great
a ps3 game NEEDS to display in 1080i in order for me to buy itI'm not saying you need buy a new TV, that's just stupid, but I wanted to point out you can have CRT picture quality and 720p support. There are plenty of newer CRT sets that take a 720p signal and you could probably get one dirt-cheap with "everyone" going to flat-panels.

These people are think headed and refuse to see the light of day.

Lol @ Crt

we are voicing our opinion that Sony should ADD support for this, we are not asking for Sony to take anything away so if you don't support this, kindly move on (http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=ps3&message.id=1543758#M1543758).

HDTV are now cheap these days...If you can afford it get a real 1080p TV! Why are people still using SDTVs or TVs that do not support 720p? These are junk TVs. Get rid of them and get with what is new.

You really need 1080p now since just about everything will upscale to 1080p on the PS3...ie DVD, PS1/PS2 games....Blurays are native 1080p..

Why are people still not going 1080p yet?

who knows. I have a 65" 1080i CRT projection, that is 5 years old, and that does 720P. i have another 50" LCD projection 720P native, and thats nearly 2 years old. I like both TVs equally, and i mainly play on my 50" LCD pro.

its beyond me why people only have 1 HDTV, that does not even do 720P.

this is the TV i bought by the way, for $3300 5 years ago.

http://www.epinions.com/pr-Sony_KP-65WV700_65_in_Rear_Projection_HDTV_Television

i got my first hdtv about a year and a half ago, a 32" samsung lcd - it was merely an appetizer. less than 5 months later i ran out and bought a 60" plasma.

there is no turning back now! nor would i want to.

who knows. I have a 65" 1080i CRT projection, that is 5 years old, and that does 720P. i have another 50" LCD projection 720P native, and thats nearly 2 years old. I like both TVs equally, and i mainly play on my 50" LCD pro.

its beyond me why people only have 1 HDTV, that does not even do 720P.
I must also be beyond you as to why people do not own 3 Jaguars, or why not everyone owns a yatch or private jet, or don't have 3 pairs of Jordans

I guess if you do not buy what allvuong buys you suck

I must also be beyond you as to why people do not own 3 Jaguars, or why not everyone owns a yatch or private jet, or don't have 3 pairs of Jordans

I guess if you do not buy what allvuong buys you suck

lol, if bill gate doesnt own a yatch or private jet, then he sucks. You speak of HDTVs like their outraguously expensive. HDTVs are something common people should be able to afford. If you can't afford another HDTV, fine, you bought something years ago and its already outdated, then dont complain.

lol, if bill gate doesnt own a yatch or private jet, then he sucks. You speak of HDTVs like their outraguously expensive. HDTVs are something common people should be able to afford. If you can't afford another HDTV, fine, you bought something years ago and its already outdated, then dont complain.
I am arguing your assertion that everyone should own more than one by now - which is just a short sided and condescending notion that fails to consider infinite possible reasons as to what causes an american consumer to make decisions in the market place

I'd like to add my 2 cents. I have 2 CRT HDTVs that do not display 720P. Quite frankly I don't really care that much that they don't. I have Motorstorm, and enjoy it fine at 480p. I also play a little RFOM trial as well at 480p. Both look OK to me.

Would I like it in 1080i, yes, assuming it was done correctly. Would I spend 2,000 to 3,000 dollars on a new TV for it? Not hardly.

Ultimately I would like Sony to add scaling to the PS3 titles, but I'm not going to loose a minutes sleep over it, and it really doesn't make me upset either way. I'd rather have them output upscaled SD DVD content over component (not holding my breath here either). I realize it is due to the DVD consortium requirements, but how stupid is this requirement.

I add that comment as in reality both the PS3 upscaling and the DVD upscaling over component are the same type if issue. Both are technically achievable however won't be resolved as the producing parties of interest do not wish to resolve them. Further, with later equipment (HDMI, ability to internally scale 720p) these issues do not exist.

The thing to remember is most of these companies that produce external video electronics(High def dvd players/game consoles) also produce and sell televisions. Strange isn't it?

im not saying that everyone needs to own 1 or more HDTV, im just saying that its obvious that they need a 720P capable TV, and yet, they dont own one yet and instead complain.

and by the way, how many TVs of any type have you bought in your life time, or computers, cars...

Thank you for sharing your opinion. It shall be given all the consideration it deserves.

Now, kindly move on.

Oh, wonderful -- allvuong has invaded AVS. I'll be on the lookout for the remaining 6 signs of the apocalypse... :(

- Jer

Because out of the four consoles that have been able to display HD resolutions, only one console had the ability to scale the way people are trying to hold a standard to.

If any can should not the most expensive one?

we are voicing our opinion that Sony should ADD support for this, we are not asking for Sony to take anything away so if you don't support this, kindly move on (http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=ps3&message.id=1543758#M1543758).

I really dont believe your "voicing an opinion". This is a thread on a message board, so you are actually complaining to other message board users and parroting to each other. I think it would be great if the PS3 supported TVs that dont support 720 input, but I dont think parroting in a thread helps that. If you really care, you should call Sony and complain. If you really really care you should right a letter (youd be surprised, people actually have to read them).

Thank you for sharing your opinion. It shall be given all the consideration it deserves.

Now, kindly move on.

Because blurays look every bit as detailed on my 1080i CRT with better black level performace

because when watching cable all my hd channels whether native 1080i (most HD channels are) or upscaled 720p (thank you free set top box) it looks just as fantastic as my buddies 1080p display and at times better (black levels again)

because standard def channels look worlds better on my crt than on any 1080p flat pannel

because my definition of NEED is not the same as yours
I do not need a 1080p display to enjoy 1080hd content 1080i is still great
a ps3 game NEEDS to display in 1080i in order for me to buy it

Sigh, this again. PS3 is a fine piece of hardware and a great value right now for those that use all the bells and whistles but Sony should not be defended for blundering here and ignoring at minimum hundreds of thousands if not millions of consumers that own 1080i non 720p displays.

Anecdote. <beginrant> A couple of weeks ago I was looking at the exact same high def games at the same time on both my Mitsu 1080p LCD circa 2005-2006 and my Mitsu 1080i CRT circa 1999. As much as my LCD looks good I was actually shocked to see the difference in black levels between the 2 units.

I had always heard about "black levels" being better on CRT but never really compared them head to head even though I own CRT sets as well DLP projector and LCD set. It was painfully obvious by comparison to the CRT that the LCD was displaying shades of dark grey and not the true and deep blacks showing on the CRT.

The somewhat sad thing is that when you don't compare them it's hard to realize what you're missing in terms of black level because it's all relative to the rest of the screen. Tecmo producer from famed team ninja (Ninja Gaiden, DoA4) commented on this once himself in an interview while creating Dead Or Alive 4. He reccommended that people buy CRT's while they still had the chance because the while they were producing games using LCD's he was not satisified with color reproduction relative to his CRT. As I recall he said not only the blacks but that colors while "pretty" simply weren't as true to his design.

So now it appears that here even at AVS we have a whole generation of hdtv owners that literally have no idea that anything is missing in their beautiful images on may of the modern televisions....</endrant>

Thank you for sharing your opinion. It shall be given all the consideration it deserves.

Now, kindly move on.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. It has already been shared.

Now, kindly move on.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. It has already been shared.

Now, kindly move on.
Trolling isn't necessary either.

It's also very much against the rules here.

Sigh, this again. PS3 is a fine piece of hardware and a great value right now for those that use all the bells and whistles but Sony should not be defended for blundering here and ignoring at minimum hundreds of thousands if not millions of consumers that own 1080i non 720p displays.

Anecdote. <beginrant> A couple of weeks ago I was looking at the exact same high def games at the same time on both my Mitsu 1080p LCD circa 2005-2006 and my Mitsu 1080i CRT circa 1999. As much as my LCD looks good I was actually shocked to see the difference in black levels between the 2 units.

I had always heard about "black levels" being better on CRT but never really compared them head to head even though I own CRT sets as well DLP projector and LCD set. It was painfully obvious by comparison to the CRT that the LCD was displaying shades of dark grey and not the true and deep blacks showing on the CRT.

The somewhat sad thing is that when you don't compare them it's hard to realize what you're missing in terms of black level because it's all relative to the rest of the screen. Tecmo producer from famed team ninja (Ninja Gaiden, DoA4) commented on this once himself in an interview while creating Dead Or Alive 4. He reccommended that people buy CRT's while they still had the chance because the while they were producing games using LCD's he was not satisified with color reproduction relative to his CRT. As I recall he said not only the blacks but that colors while "pretty" simply weren't as true to his design.

So now it appears that here even at AVS we have a whole generation of hdtv owners that literally have no idea that anything is missing in their beautiful images on may of the modern televisions....</endrant>

Hey I rememebr that interview from back when I was researching what kind of HDTV I was going to get - still don't regret it blurays on this puppy rock my world

Trolling isn't necessary either.

It's also very much against the rules here.

I agree, please stay on topic, the thread asked if this issue was discussed at E3. It was not. Stop belittling other peoples threads, that are actually on topic.

I have a Panny 42" plasma purchased 3 years ago. It was one of the best bang for the buck sets at the time. It will do 720P/1080i using the ATSC tuner but only 1080i if using any other source. The upscaling DVD player I bought to go with it at the time was the best one at the time also (DVD-S97S). That unit scaled to 1080i not 720P.

I live in a one bedroom apartment in NYC so i will not be getting another TV unless I get rid of this one. I'm not about to trade up to a 1080P just yet. There are still too many things to be finalized. i.e. 120hz, HDMI 1.2, cable card 2.0 etc.

In any case, I think it's Sony's responsibility to make sure that the PS3 is compatible to all resolutions, not just the game makers. If the PS3 can upscale PS1 and 2 games to 1080P, there's no excuse for them to not be able to do it to a 720P game that was released just a few months ago.

I agree, please stay on topic, the thread asked if this issue was discussed at E3. It was not. Stop belittling other peoples threads, that are actually on topic.You mean like this?It not that we dont care less, we are just giving you an honest opinion. My personal preference is actually for the way Sony does it over how MS does it. W/ my PS3, when I play a 720 game, it outputs in 720. When I watch a 1080 movie or play a 1080 game, it outputs in 1080. I HATE how the 360 makes me choose an output setting and everything gets output to that. I dont want to have to worry about switching it every time I want to play a game. I dont want my 720 games outputting to 1080i, then my TV has to deinterlace it and that takes extra time and you get more laggage. I actually prefer the way Sony does it, I prefer content to be output at its rendered resolution.

I think that that is the way HD content should be output, I dont think it should be output to a generic resolution. :rolleyes:

Again, if you don't care about this issue, why are you posting in this thread? Why are you even reading it? Actually I don't care if you read it, but stop crapping in it. Pretty much all of the snide comments and little "suggestions" (like get a new TV) were addressed in that FAQ I linked. Did you even read it? Either way, stop trolling. Last warning.

Hey I rememebr that interview from back when I was researching what kind of HDTV I was going to get - still don't regret it blurays on this puppy rock my world

Note I said my LCD has a beautiful picture as well, and sharp without a need for professional convergence. There are some advantages to the modern sets, but there is unfortunately also some loss...

OT: If you push your product as being for HDTC and even if only hundreds of thousands of hdtv owners will be affected, you should support those owners or at least put big warnings on your product that is only optimized for "certain" hdtv's.

1080i support is standardized on devices that support hdtv (last gen machines had hd support as only a bonus, not standard). Receivers, hd video players the 360, all support 1080i. The PS3 is the only hd output device I've found that doesn't always support it.

You mean like this? :rolleyes:

Again, if you don't care about this issue, why are you posting in this thread? Why are you even reading it? Actually I don't care if you read it, but stop crapping in it. Pretty much all of the snide comments and little "suggestions" (like get a new TV) were addressed in that FAQ I linked. Did you even read it? Either way, stop trolling. Last warning.

Who said I dont care about the issue. I have actually given real suggestions, like write Sony. I've also stated that I agree that it sux that Sony doesn't fully support TVs that dont accept 720p. See, you are not looking for people to agree and give real solutions, like write a letter, or contact the game developers and implore them to support 1080i. Your looking for people to disagree w/ you, so that you can flame and troll. You have been found out.

For those that actually care about the issue, lets be constructive. Although few posters have actually posted possible actions or solutions, a few people have. Here are some things you could do.

1. Contact Sony (you can mail them or call them. I doubt email will get you anywhere. If they get enough phone calls and letters, it might actually make a difference. Then again, they dont really seem to be responding to this issue and retracted their statement that they were fixing it).

2. Contact games manufacturers (this might be your best bet, because they want you to buy their games. However, it might be a pain in the butt to keep up w/ this admittedly)

3. Buy a new TV (not the best option if you dont have the money or are in love w/ your current CRT)

4. Deal w/ it (Not a great option, but I actually think this option will get better as more and more games companies will be supporting 1080i, only my opinion though.

5. Sell your PS3 or not buy one (Obviously you have to weight this w/ having to go through the other options. This is up to the individual. My personal preference would be to go w/ option 3 over this as there are some amazing CRTs out there that support 720 now, but I know that that won't work for everyone).

If anyone has any other potential solutions, please share.

For those that actually care about the issue, lets be constructive. Although few posters have actually posted possible actions or solutions, a few people have. Here are some things you could do.

1. Contact Sony (you can mail them or call them. I doubt email will get you anywhere. If they get enough phone calls and letters, it might actually make a difference. Then again, they dont really seem to be responding to this issue and retracted their statement that they were fixing it).

2. Contact games manufacturers (this might be your best bet, because they want you to buy their games. However, it might be a pain in the butt to keep up w/ this admittedly)

3. Buy a new TV (not the best option if you dont have the money or are in love w/ your current CRT)

4. Deal w/ it (Not a great option, but I actually think this option will get better as more and more games companies will be supporting 1080i, only my opinion though.

5. Sell your PS3 or not buy one (Obviously you have to weight this w/ having to go through the other options. This is up to the individual. My personal preference would be to go w/ option 3 over this as there are some amazing CRTs out there that support 720 now, but I know that that won't work for everyone).

If anyone has any other potential solutions, please share.

You can contact Sony from the Playstation site and send a complaint which many of us have already done. Sony is clearly already aware of the issue and it's been hinted that the problem is not one that easily solved for some reason related to a limitation placed on the scaler in the PS3. Apparently this reason is not allowed to be discussed according some developers. :confused:

On the plus side it at least would seem that going forward most PS3 developers if not all will work to include 1080i support in their games and that's probably about the most we can hope for...

You can contact Sony from the Playstation site and send a complaint which many of us have already done. Sony is clearly already aware of the issue and it's been hinted that the problem is not one that easily solved for some reason related to a limitation placed on the scaler in the PS3. Apparently this reason is not allowed to be discussed according some developers. :confused:

On the plus side it at least would seem that going forward most PS3 developers if not all will work to include 1080i support in their games and that's probably about the most we can hope for...

Seems reasonable. If I were making a game, I would make sure that it supported every customer.

Keyser, please put this thread out of it's misery. Please let it rest in peace.

Chris, look at what you have said above and I quote:'' Many people on here feel exactly the same way and the only issue that's ever come up with these sets is the PS3's lack of scaling (every other device in existence has worked fine".

Reread and think it over what you are saying. Again, I reiterate what you are saying. "These sets"! You are right the issue is with your set as much if not more than the PS3 not doing what you want. Other sets with the PS3 connected don't have this issue.

Hugh, the logic is circular and the adversarial stance makes me wonder how you misinterpreted my post. The only reason there is even a distinction between any HD video display is this issue with the PS3. No other device has this issue and this is the device which creates a separation between displays where "it works" and those where "it doesn't work". And that is the central issue in that a single random device should not cause such divisions and issues with support where none exist anywhere else. Hence the entire reason this thread exists.

Yet it does and as I said on the very first page (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11035216&&#post11035216) - I don't really care much other to say it's ridiculous and absurd to come from Sony of all people who have a long history in both the console and display markets. But quite honestly I accept it and gave up on Sony a while ago and plan to revisit toward the holiday to see how things shake out with scaling, good titles, and maybe some homebrew linux media center apps. The core thing I objected to in this thread is people trying to pretend it's unimportant, those who have to deal with it are somehow stupid, or those people own inferior outdated displays or are cheap bastards who need to pony up to get something that can handle the oddball PS3's lack of scaling. Mainly this comes from the contingent of people who don't know a whole lot about home theater outside of playing a PS3 on their television and behave like they are 15.

My point in that post which I think you totally misinterpreted and ran off in the wrong direction with is that I happen to like my display and won't be swapping it out until I see something better visually or I die (which was facetious). I then thought I'd add my experience with 1080i display owners since I know a number of them and people above were discussing it.

PS - Kyser, please close this pathetic excuse for a thread. Looking at most of the discussion in this thing, I'm reminded of the fact that what most of us used to enjoy about this forum was that it didn't suck. I guess we can say that ironically the PS3 and 360's evolution into HD are what ruined the gaming forums here.

PS - Kyser, please close this pathetic excuse for a thread. Looking at most of the discussion in this thing, I'm reminded of the fact that what most of us used to enjoy about this forum was that it didn't suck. I guess we can say that ironically the PS3 and 360's evolution into HD are what ruined the gaming forums here.


Chris, I have nothing against you in any way shape or form. I am not your adversary. I understand what you and others are saying, but I disagree and it is that simple.

The PS3 and 360 in no way ruined the gaming forums, that is an excuse. People, people have ruined these if we want to blame something, that is if these forums are "ruined". No different than blaming cigarettes for people getting lung cancer. We all make choices.

I chose my display and others have chosen theirs and we live with those choices and move on or keep bitching and arguing.

I do hope this works out for those that have issues.

Seems like just about every topic possible was covered, including rumble in Sixaxis controllers (supposedly coming soon), but I didn't see any mention of anybody asking any Sony official about the scaling issue for people with 1080i/480p only HDTV's. I'm thinking with these new models coming in August and probably early 08, maybe they will take care of this issue as well. I haven't searched all over the web for this, but I was wondering if anybody else saw a quote anywhere in regards to this. Too bad that Kotaku guy didn't ask somebody about it.
I would buy one today if it upscaled...are you listening Sony? By the way...I have a Sony HDTV. Kind of ironic.

I would buy one today if it upscaled...are you listening Sony? By the way...I have a Sony HDTV. Kind of ironic.

I would also buy one today (or months ago) if it upscaled 720p games to 1080i rather than downgrading them to 480p. I have a Mitsubishi rear projector that I bought in 2004 and don't think that 3 years is long enough to get the full value out of a $1900+ tv. Because of this, I am not buying a new tv or a PS3. :(