I just purchased a Pioneer PDP-4280HD and overall I am very impressed with the black levels compared to my old Panasonic TH-42PX6U, though I still miss the total black of a CRT. Anyway, with the soon to be arriving 81 series Samsung models I wonder if I made the wrong decision. The Pioneer cost me $2000 and as far as buying a TV that is as high as I ever want to pay; how much are the new Samsungs going to cost? Also, are the black levels likely to be much better in the new LCD's? Overall I really dislike LCD's, for many reasons, but the one thing that I LOVE about them is that I could leave Super Mario Brothers 2 on pause at full brightness with virtually no concern of any burn-in or image retention. I was reading that the new Samsungs, the 71 and 81 series, will be around $3000. What is more odd is that the 71, which is reported to have a CCFL backlight, is said to start at $2700, I thought this "brightside" licensed tech was really expensive, how could there only be a $300 difference between the CCFL and LED backlit versions. Anyway, just curious as the 71/81 series are rumoured to be coming out in August, yet there is very little to no solid information on them or anticipated street prices.

Anyway, just curious as the 71/81 series are rumoured to be coming out in August, yet there is very little to no solid information on them or anticipated street prices.
All MSRPs are known (except for the 70-inch set). http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9477805&&#post9477805

I just purchased a Pioneer PDP-4280HD and overall I am very impressed with the black levels compared to my old Panasonic TH-42PX6U, though I still miss the total black of a CRT. Anyway, with the soon to be arriving 81 series Samsung models I wonder if I made the wrong decision. The Pioneer cost me $2000 and as far as buying a TV that is as high as I ever want to pay; how much are the new Samsungs going to cost? Also, are the black levels likely to be much better in the new LCD's? Overall I really dislike LCD's, for many reasons, but the one thing that I LOVE about them is that I could leave Super Mario Brothers 2 on pause at full brightness with virtually no concern of any burn-in or image retention. I was reading that the new Samsungs, the 71 and 81 series, will be around $3000. What is more odd is that the 71, which is reported to have a CCFL backlight, is said to start at $2700, I thought this "brightside" licensed tech was really expensive, how could there only be a $300 difference between the CCFL and LED backlit versions. Anyway, just curious as the 71/81 series are rumoured to be coming out in August, yet there is very little to no solid information on them or anticipated street prices.

I am in the same boat as you buddy. I have a feeling that these TVs might get a ridiculous black level. But at the same time they might get you some unwanted artifacts as well as stability because of the local dimming tech.

I'm going to compare a Samsung 81 and a Pioneer 1080p model before I make my decision. I don't know if these things will be completely black on all black screens and really dark scenes, but I have a feeling they will be close.

I'm in the same boat too. This week I will finally look at new Pios.

How is the grid matrix (64 blocks for the entire screen) going to handle shadow detail. That type of grid structure cannot do both.

How is the grid matrix (64 blocks for the entire screen) going to handle shadow detail. That type of grid structure cannot do both.

Darkening by area does seem a bit unstable. Although the contrast must be off the charts. I can't wait to see em. Side by side comparison with the Pioneer 8g 1080p will be one hell of a shoot out. Although you do bring up some real concerns about the detail in the shadows.

I finally saw Pio 5080 at BB today. I was expecting the best PQ I've ever seen based on reviews but, to me, the set looked just as impressive as the other sets. It was mounted right above 5070 and beside new Panasonic's 50-incher and even though I stared at them for 10 minutes, I struggled to tell a difference between them, that is, until the picture faded to black. Unfortunately, that was the only time when 5080 revealed a discernible advantage over other displays. So, 8g Pios are off my list right now since I could have the same PQ, it seems, for much less. If 81 Series disappoints me later this year, I might as well wait for Laser, SED, FED or OLED. I have the patience. :)

I finally saw Pio 5080 at BB today. I was expecting the best PQ I've ever seen based on reviews but, to me, the set looked just as impressive as the other sets. It was mounted right above 5070 and beside new Panasonic's 50-incher and even though I stared at them for 10 minutes, I struggled to tell a difference between them, that is, until the picture faded to black. Unfortunately, that was the only time when 5080 revealed a discernible advantage over other displays. So, 8g Pios are off my list right now since I could have the same PQ, it seems, for much less. If 81 Series disappoints me later this year, I might as well wait for Laser, SED, FED or OLED. I have the patience. :)

Are you going to watch in the dark? Are you going to calibrate your TV? Are you going to feed the sets something other than Best Buy's feed loop? Have you owned a digital flat panel set before?

vtms - You're completely underestimating the significance of a superior black level in a normal viewing environment. And the fact that you could detect a difference in the bright store lighting really says how far superior the Pioneer is.

Are you going to watch in the dark? Are you going to calibrate your TV? Are you going to feed the sets something other than Best Buy's feed loop? Have you owned a digital flat panel set before? None of this matters though (yet I would still answer yes to all of the above). I saw what I saw and that's it. I can't lie to myself.

vtms - You're completely underestimating the significance of a superior black level in a normal viewing environment. And the fact that you could detect a difference in the bright store lighting really says how far superior the Pioneer is. It should and I wanted it to be superior but I just didn't see it until the National Geographic loop faded to black. Perhaps this set is capable of much better PQ than what I saw but, right now, I just can't imagine this could be the case. I might take a look at them in a different store (not CC ;) ) later this month to see if I reach the same verdict except, this time, my expectations will be way lower than they were earlier today.

None of this matters though (yet I would still answer yes to all of the above). I saw what I saw and that's it. I can't lie to myself.

Right... you can't lie to yourself. But let me tell you what's going to happen. You saw what you saw at Best Buy. Boom. Answer solved. You got a set opinion.

You pick a cheaper, probably higher res TV. You take it home, and all the sudden you set it up. Lights are a glaring in your room, your TVs set for out of the box perforamnce and its torchin! Oh it's so pretty looking! You're gonna sit there and admire it, checking out your HD stuff, setting up your connections. Then what next? You're going to go into the AVS forum a bit more, learning about settings and stuff.

That's where the problems start to come in.

You start to wonder... Wow, why are my colors so blue and overblown? Better fix that... uh oh. Why isn't as punchy as it was before?!

Wait... why is my set full of edge enhancement? What is Edge Enhancement? ... Oh it's when the TV is drawing lines to artifically enhance images. That'll ruin good sources! This isn't the way a picture is calibrated as close to the source as possbile!

You begin setting blacks correctly and lowering your color temp. And then the last one that hits you like a ton of bricks.

What the heck happened to those blacks I saw at the store?! I dim my room and all the sudden those blacks aren't so inky anymore! My dark scenes could look darker! They should look darker!

Point is... I was fooled by the lights first time around. Black levels are EXTREMELY important, while maybe not at a Best Buy comparison in bright lights? It is important if you wish to watch movies at home and calibrate your picture. It'll give you a much more punchy and accurate display. Blacks will stay black. Colors will looked crushed with so much saturation. And the image will always stay 3-D no matter how dark the scene is.

Sure, does the Pio 5080 look THAT much better in the store? I personally don't think so. Certinaly not in every case. But just know that when you get another Plasma home, you better make sure you're happy with that set right away in terms of contrast. If you don't decide on either a Samsung 81 or a Kuro that is.

First step. Dim your lights, get some calibrated settings, and watch a movie with alot of dark scenes. Then ask yourself are you happy with those blacks. If so? Good for you. You didn't need to spend that extra cash. Just make sure buyers remorse doesn't set in and you were not warned.

For those like me who are unsatsified with where digital displays use black... the pioneer and the samsung are the only options out there for now.

"None of this matters though."

Oh it defintely matters. It matters if you're serious about Home Theater PQ. If not? Just go buy the sexiest flat panel you see at the store... go home, don't read AVS stuff and be blissfully oblivious.

It matters if you're serious about Home Theater PQ. If not? Just go buy the sexiest flat panel you see at the store... go home, don't read AVS stuff and be blissfully oblivious.
My opinion is not set in stone. It all depends on what I see next time in a completely different environment. Hey, if people tell me I should not give up on this display then I would be foolish not to reconsider my opinion about this TV. I will definitely give this display one more chance. Perhaps my problem is that I'm too serious about PQ and this is why every time I go to these stores I leave thinking, "this flat panel HDTV technology still has a long way to go".

My opinion is not set in stone. It all depends on what I see next time in a completely different environment. Hey, if people tell me I should not give up on this display then I would be foolish not to reconsider my opinion about this TV. I will definitely give this display one more chance. Perhaps my problem is that I'm too serious about PQ and this is why every time I go to these stores I leave thinking, "this flat panel HDTV technology still has a long way to go".

I am assuming you're coming from an HD CRT w/ very deep blacks?

I am assuming you're coming from an HD CRT w/ very deep blacks?Correct.

Correct.

Yes... then I'd go with a Kuro or a Samsung by default. Any of those other TVs will not be close in terms of reproducing the color of black. And you should know this yourself. With the lights on? Alot of TVs look fantastic. The best TVs do just as well in the dark. The best CRTs do this.

The newer flat panels (i.e. Kuro) will be much more impressive in regards to this. I dunno if the Kuros are "there" in a complete dark room. But they're sure as hell alot closer than anything out right now.

My opinion is not set in stone. It all depends on what I see next time in a completely different environment. Hey, if people tell me I should not give up on this display then I would be foolish not to reconsider my opinion about this TV. I will definitely give this display one more chance. Perhaps my problem is that I'm too serious about PQ and this is why every time I go to these stores I leave thinking, "this flat panel HDTV technology still has a long way to go".

Pardon me for saying this so bluntly, but from reading your recent posts it seems you REALLY do not have a clue as to PQ, and even much less knowledge as how to properly evaluate a particular display. I strongly suggest you sit back for a period and just read & do some basic research.

Yes... then I'd go with a Kuro or a Samsung by default. Any of those other TVs will not be close. And you should know this yourself.
I do, which is why I'm considering only these two lines and perhaps other LCDs with dynamic backlighting (and other techs) that are in the pipeline. Anything less than that would drive me crazy. I'm willing to wait especially since major improvements in display technology seem to arrive faster now.

I strongly suggest you sit back for a period and just read & do some basic research.
Such as?

Such as?

http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/tips-on-buying-a-new-flat-panel-tv.pdf

This is a good start.

Basic stuff. Well, never mind. :)

Next time I will be careful to not express even neutral opinions on Pioneer displays. Lesson learned.

Basic stuff. Well, never mind. :)

Next time I will be careful to not express even neutral opinions on Pioneer displays. Lesson learned.

Yes sure. Neutral. Glad you didn't learn anything from all the effort I gave to help you out. Pick out the one you find best at the store and go home be happy.

You'll deserve what you get depending on how much effort you put into research. That is a way better lesson than that contrived "Pioneer fanboy" cheapshot your post resembled.

I am just starting my research for my HT. But isn't the Pioneer 5080 7 Generation?
950-HD is 8'th Generation on 42 Samsung was my original direction, but I believe the Pioneer has equal if not better picture quality + I like the monitor only look. I don't think stock speakers will give quality sound and if your going to spend the money on quality speakers then anything hanging on the screen is a wast of space. This is my first post. I am looking at that Pioneer, matching with SpeakerCraft Aim8's and either the paradigm PDR -8 or Sunfire D-10 Subwoofer. The other factor that I like about the Pioneer is that it has a Fire Wire (port?). I don't know that I'll be downloading many "PlayforSure" from Microsoft, but I suspect that it will be important in the future to have that infrastructure in place (one day we'll say remember when we used to mail back our movies to Net Flix). In addition to my Pioneer vs Samsung decision I thinking that entry pro level it would be good to have the receiver Net Ready. So my question to the forum is do you think that Net Ready infrastructure is important in either or both the TV and the Receiver and what is the experience of the members using "net ready" products.

Yes sure. Neutral. Glad you didn't learn anything from all the effort I gave to help you out.
In that case thank you. I thought your goal was only to undermine my opinion by treating me like a newbie. Why would you even assume I needed help? I've done the "research" a long time ago and I'm perfectly capable of picking the right display myself. If the display doesn't wow me, then it doesn't wow me, and that's the end of discussion. I was merely stating an opinion, not asking for help or a lecture. Anyway, good luck with your choice.

In that case thank you. I thought your goal was only to undermine my opinion by treating me like a newbie. Why would you even assume I needed help? I've done the "research" a long time ago and I'm perfectly capable of picking the right display myself. If the display doesn't wow me, then it doesn't wow me, and that's the end of discussion. I was merely stating an opinion, not asking for help or a lecture. Anyway, good luck with your choice.

Of course I am trying to help. Why did I assume you were a newbie?

1) "I was expecting the best PQ ever."

Straight out of the box? Compared to other torched TVs? That's an impossible feet for even a TV that is perfect. A person knowledgeable in basics knows that a calibrated picture looks nothing like you would see it in-store. "Wow factor" comes whenever I can get a good source and calibrate... and watch in the dark. That's when PQ addicts begin to judge the beauty.

2) Judging blacks in a lit up room.

Why are you trying to discern black levels in a lit up room? How can a black level difference "Wow you"? It's a basic fact that light plays alot in detirmining how black things seem. Why did people keep dissing LCDs for blacks for all this time... even though in the store they seem so inky?

Those are just two reasons. That's why I assumed. You are watching TV in the dark yet you brushed off the 5080 in one example... in a lit up room. That doesn't sound like an experience AVS specialist to me.

Those are just two reasons. That's why I assumed. You are watching TV in the dark yet you brushed off the 5080 in one example... in a lit up room. That doesn't sound like an experience AVS specialist to me.

I see. Well, by saying "I was expecting best PQ ever" I was alluding to the big hype around these sets. You simply took it literally and thought I was completely serious. Okay, I can understand that.

I think what you and the other poster missed completely in my "opinion about 5080" was that my description of what I actually saw was *only* in relation to other plasmas in the same environment, not in relation to my idea of what the perfect PQ should look like. This is crucial. I did that deliberately and you should have recognized that before jumping to conclusions.

Are we ready to move on now?

I see. Well, by saying "I was expecting best PQ ever" I was alluding to the big hype around these sets. You simply took it literally and thought I was completely serious. Okay, I can understand that.

I think what you and the other poster missed completely in my "opinion about 5080" was that my description of what I actually saw was *only* in relation to other plasmas in the same environment, not in relation to my idea of what the perfect PQ should look like. This is crucial. I did that deliberately and you should have recognized that before jumping to conclusions.

Are we ready to move on now?

Sure. So you can assume that the Pios are "off your list" based on a pretty much useless comparison. Good enough for me. If that was deliberate on your part. You deserve all you find. :) Now I move on.

Just read this thread from top to bottom and I'll say what a load this thread is. Whats going on here is vtms is just being honest. Seems like these forums anothers POV isn't tolerated. Bottom line follows:

1.) If you have a cave to put a plasma in this is for you.

2.) If you live in a house with windows buy an LCD. Yes its this simple.

Just read this thread from top to bottom and I'll say what a load this thread is. Whats going on here is vtms is just being honest. Seems like these forums anothers POV isn't tolerated. Bottom line follows:

1.) If you have a cave to put a plasma in this is for you.

2.) If you live in a house with windows buy an LCD. Yes its this simple.

It has nothing to do with brand vs. brand or technology vs. technology. It's logic. I asked him several questions. The most important one being "Are you going to watch in the dark?"

He replies with "None of this matters though (yet I would still answer yes to all of the above)." Following that with the ritualistic "I saw what I saw" babble that everyone seems to rant after their europhic ephiphany at Best Buy.

Come again? So let me get this straight. He walked into BB. Compared all TVs under bright lights and uncalibrated, with no standard what-so-ever. And then decides totally on a whim, based on that "awesome" comparison that the Pioneers should be crossed off his list because he was underwhelmed? The fact that they are the 8g Pioneers has no significant factor in what my beef is. It's the fact that there's many people like this walking around BB, who scare themselves off w/o giving the sets they want a legitamte shot. Samsung LED, Pioneer P;asma... Panasonic Plasa... Sony... doesn't matter.

Now he can do whatever he wants. I don't care. He's already has his mind set and I am just a guy who loves to pick and try to understand people like this. Buy LCD! Buy Plasma! Buy any brand name you want. I have more of a problem with his claims of being not a 'newb' yet he totally compares and shops like one. He's "picky" yet his idea of a fair comparison is about as skewed as the torch modes that fill the Best Buy sales floor. Don't be putting any "biased Pioneer" "I'm holier than thou" twist on my posts because I too am interested in both TVs being spoken of.

The difference between me and him? I know I'm going to be watching movies in the dark. Hence I need to get these TVs in the dark w/ some kind of feed like Blu-Ray.. see how that logic works? That is a much more relative and standard way to judge home theater PQ.

If what he did constitutes as a 'true comparison'? I'd be better off buying sight unseen.

Sure. So you can assume that the Pios are "off your list" based on a pretty much useless comparison. Good enough for me. If that was deliberate on your part. You deserve all you find. :) Now I move on.
You see, you missed again what I actually said later which was that, considering such a big discrepancy between many rave reviews and my, initial "it looks good, yes, but so do others" opinion, I will not take this display "off my list" just yet and will make an effort to go to other store(s) where the staff makes sure the sets the store sells look half-decent and give it one more shot.

You see, you missed again what I actually said later which was that, considering such a big discrepancy between many rave reviews and my, initial "it looks good, yes, but so do others" opinion, I will not take this display "off my list" just yet and will make an effort to go to other store(s) where the staff makes sure the sets the store sells look half-decent and give it one more shot.

You keep jumping man. One minute it's off your list.. the next is back. Just good luck. Do what you gotta do. I got my opinion out on the situation. Oldcbands talking about sunlight and what not.

I am not questioning whether your opinion is correct relative to the situation you viewed the TVs in. I am questioning whether or not the situation can be deemed useful or fair.

Now I'm done. Do as you wish. I'll be making the same decision you'll be making.

Just read this thread from top to bottom and I'll say what a load this thread is. Whats going on here is vtms is just being honest. Seems like these forums anothers POV isn't tolerated.
Apparently. One minute I'm sharing some offhand remarks on my recent visit to BB, the next minute I'm being nailed to the cross. :)

How is the grid matrix (64 blocks for the entire screen) going to handle shadow detail. That type of grid structure cannot do both.

Much better than 8G, which crushes shadow detail to fake "impressive" black level. I just don't get all this 8G industry best blacks and Pioneer obsessive talk.

Even Sharp D92 with backlight saving turned on has lower black level than 768p 8G. And has also similar light output on a 100% APL scene while maintaining industry best blacks. 8G doesn't hold a candle next to 81 series. 81 series looks black day&night with ultimate contrast pop.

One more thing: 8G crushes also whites. How can anyone be impressed by a display that crushes both whites and blacks? Samsung 81 doesn't crush blacks or whites. Samsung 81 doesn't need Pioneer obsessed environment or special settings to look even remotely impressive.

8G is a complete disaster as high end display. 8G hasn't kept a single promise about its claimed superior performance. It's just another bad plasma from Pioneer. 8 generations of bad plasma displays is quite an achievement!

Much better than 8G, which crushes shadow detail to fake "impressive" black level. I just don't get all this 8G industry best blacks and Pioneer obsessive talk.

Even Sharp D92 with backlight saving turned on has lower black level than 768p 8G. And has also similar light output on a 100% APL scene while maintaining industry best blacks. 8G doesn't hold a candle next to 81 series. 81 series looks black day&night with ultimate contrast pop.

One more thing: 8G crushes also whites. How can anyone be impressed by a display that crushes both whites and blacks? Samsung 81 doesn't crush blacks or whites. Samsung 81 doesn't need Pioneer obsessed environment or special settings to look even remotely impressive.

8G is a complete disaster as high end display. 8G hasn't kept a single promise about its claimed superior performance. It's just another bad plasma from Pioneer. 8 generations of bad plasma displays is quite an achievement!Again, we shall see when your 81 series arrives in stores. And your bold print is BS as all calibrators that have calibrated the 8G Pioneers have not come to that conclusion. So you can shove it up your <censoured> sampo.

Again, we shall see when your 81 series arrives in stores. And your bold print is BS as all calibrators that have calibrated the 8G Pioneers have not come to that conclusion. So you can shove it up your <censoured> sampo.

Calling names again?

8G has been confirmed to have screwed gamma to fake more impressive blacks. 8G also crushes whites when APL% is more than 40. 8G hasn't kept a single promise about its claimed superior performance. Now, prove me wrong. If you can't give a proper answer, I'm right about this matter.

Here is the calibration report from umr on a Pioneer 5080. Can you explain the numbers and results sampo?

An before you even comment, his $24K light meter cannot accurately measure the light output below 0.01fL. However, I have not seen one review that states they used a meter that is more accurate than his



Gamma curve....quoting umr:

"Gamma can be calculated many ways. My calculation on that report is an inverse of the Rec. 709 curve. Many others are using a simple power curve to determine gamma. The values resulting from these calculations differ. The key thing is not the number anyways it is whether the display looks good. The average gamma value for the power curve post calibration was 2.23 while the inverse Rec. 709 gamma was 2.67. I use the Rec. 709 curve as a limit not to exceed. I choose the final gamma based on look not just a numical value.

The following charts are using the same data, but with the two different reference curves.

Some manufacturers target the Rec. 709 curve while others are targeting the power curve. It is obvious from this data that Pioneer is targeting the power curve. "

So how is it crushing anything?

Here is the calibration report from umr on a Pioneer 5080. Can you explain the numbers and results sampo? So how is it crushing anything?

8G's black crush can't be properly measured with that meter, but it's still too obvious. Do you know that when calibrated gamma is below target, display is crushing detail? This is exactly what is happening here. HDTVtest used more accurate meter or are you questioning Vincent's ability to measure panels? That calibration report from umr can't be used to reveal 8G's severe white crush. Nice try though.

Tip for reading gamma:

If gamma is below target, image is too bright. If gamma is above target, image is too dark. UMR seems to have adjusted black level higher to avoid severe black crush.

8G's black crush can't be properly measured with that meter, but it's still too obvious. Do you know that when calibrated gamma is below target, display is crushing detail? This is exactly what is happening here. HDTVtest used more accurate meter or are you questioning Vincent's ability to measure panels? That calibration report from umr can't be used to reveal 8G's severe white crush. Nice try though.

Tip for reading gamma:

If gamma is below target, image is too bright. If gamma is above target, image is too dark. UMR seems to have adjusted black level higher to avoid severe black crush.Did you pay attention to what I posted? Do you need me to post his comments on gamma again?

"Gamma can be calculated many ways. My calculation on that report is an inverse of the Rec. 709 curve. Many others are using a simple power curve to determine gamma. The values resulting from these calculations differ. The key thing is not the number anyways it is whether the display looks good. The average gamma value for the power curve post calibration was 2.23 while the inverse Rec. 709 gamma was 2.67. I use the Rec. 709 curve as a limit not to exceed. I choose the final gamma based on look not just a numical value.

The following charts are using the same data, but with the two different reference curves.

Some manufacturers target the Rec. 709 curve while others are targeting the power curve. It is obvious from this data that Pioneer is targeting the power curve. "

And how do you know Vincent used a more accurate meter? Did he post it somewhere? Last time we chatted about contrast ratios sampo, you went on your rampage regarding a Swedish report that was using a HFCR do it yourself probe....need I say more about how your whole argument when in the toilet after that was discovered?

Calling names is too old and childish.

8G is crushing detail and UMR's report shows that. If you could read gamma, you wouldn't have posted that report here. That bolded text is talk about targeting, not actually delivering. All nice talk, but has no value here.

I read gamma quite well and understand both curves. The question is do you as you seem to continue to overlook the obvious.

How many ways are there to calculate gamma sampo?

I read gamma quite well and understand both curves.

Yeah, just like qualia 005 has strobing leds? You can't/couldn't even calculate contrast, so how more demanding task like reading gamma could be possible for you. http://www.avforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rotfl.gif http://www.avforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rotfl.gif

D-nice - don't waste your time with Sampo. Everyone here knows he and all his aliases are full of poo. there's a reason locally dimmed LED LCDs aren't on the market for reasonable prices and the 81 is gonna show why with its pitiful array soon. ;)

I still doubt the blur issue will be settled as well.

When did I have an issue calculating contrast?

Side by Side with my Panasonic TH-42PX6U the 4280 looks about twice as dark, still quite a way from CRT blacks but to me it is finally acceptable, as to me the Panasonic is just awful, and unacceptable to me, in dark scenes. Also, gamma has nothing to do with it, as when lowering the gamma on the Panasonic everything just sinks into the grey. In fact the only way that a display can look good with a really exponential gamma curve is if the display can render material far into the darkest parts of the video signal (shadow detail). So in short these new Pioneers to me look REALLY great compared to everything else out there and 90% of the time they look as good or better than CRT, only when doing absolute black scenes with only one object on screen can you tell that it is not a CRT. I guess the 81 Samsung's will be able to do the whole totally black thing but 64 dimmable zones does not seem like enough to do a good job of rendering shadow detail. Additionally, what is the resolution of the dimming (5,6,7, 8-bit?) I mean it would seem ideal to have at least 6 bit dimming resolution (64 levels of luminance); I do realize that the liquid crystal material will attenuate/modulate this but I am just curious. Overall it seems like a great technology but I am just a little apprehensive about having so few zones and all the technical details.

Apparently. One minute I'm sharing some offhand remarks on my recent visit to BB, the next minute I'm being nailed to the cross. :)

Post something totally illogical and expect some negative feedback. Sorry you feel like such a 'martyr'. Why not just take what I've posted... stop being so sensitive and actually read.

Bottom Line: The way you're going about shopping for a TV isn't what I'd call... effective. You use the word "offhand" and that's a perfect way to describe what I'm reading in your posts. Theres no thought or preparation in your comparison at Best Buy yet you came away so strongly with an opinion.

Side by Side with my Panasonic TH-42PX6U the 4280 looks about twice as dark, still quite a way from CRT blacks but to me it is finally acceptable, as to me the Panasonic is just awful, and unacceptable to me, in dark scenes. Also, gamma has nothing to do with it, as when lowering the gamma on the Panasonic everything just sinks into the grey. In fact the only way that a display can look good with a really exponential gamma curve is if the display can render material far into the darkest parts of the video signal (shadow detail). So in short these new Pioneers to me look REALLY great compared to everything else out there and 90% of the time they look as good or better than CRT, only when doing absolute black scenes with only one object on screen can you tell that it is not a CRT. I guess the 81 Samsung's will be able to do the whole totally black thing but 64 dimmable zones does not seem like enough to do a good job of rendering shadow detail. Additionally, what is the resolution of the dimming (5,6,7, 8-bit?) I mean it would seem ideal to have at least 6 bit dimming resolution (64 levels of luminance); I do realize that the liquid crystal material will attenuate/modulate this but I am just curious. Overall it seems like a great technology but I am just a little apprehensive about having so few zones and all the technical details.

My findings too Soloist. I am wonder if the Samsung can really pull out those details as well as render scenes correctly w/ local dimming vs. something like pixel by pixel. The 4280 and 5080 as I said aren't CRT performers when it comes to all black screens. Maybe the Samsung will eclipse it... but hopefully not at a significant cost.

And in terms of 'shadow detail'. I do find it interesting that the 428XD is the only TV that garners any type of "complaint" (I don't really call Vincent a complaint... more like a mention.) Go to the hdtv.org review. They have both a 428XD review and a 508XD review. On the 50 there are absolutely no complaints about shadow detail rendering yet on their 428XD there is that "complaint". Ironically the 42 scores higher by 1 percent. O_o

I have zero problems with local dimming LED LCDs. I have a major problem with the 64 block grid structure Samsung is rushing to market. It's going to cause problems. I would like to see a grid block structure that is in the hundreds...like the one that Sony will have at CES '08 ;)

I have zero problems with local dimming LED LCDs. I have a major problem with the 64 block grid structure Samsung is rushing to market. It's going to cause problems. I would like to see a grid block structure that is in the hundreds...like the one that Sony will have at CES '08 ;)

I really doubt that problems part ;) Tech is advancing, so what? LED LCDs will advance much faster than plasmas. Do you know that 8G was rushed to the market? 8G isn't a real 10 lumen plasma. Do you know that Panasonic 11G has 4x Pioneer 8G contrast(measured).

Post something totally illogical and expect some negative feedback. Sorry you feel like such a 'martyr'. Why not just take what I've posted... stop being so sensitive and actually read.

Bottom Line: The way you're going about shopping for a TV isn't what I'd call... effective. You use the word "offhand" and that's a perfect way to describe what I'm reading in your posts. Theres no thought or preparation in your comparison at Best Buy yet you came away so strongly with an opinion.


Stop trying to force the 8g kool aid down our mouths, we don't want it :rolleyes:

http://clearwisdom.net/emh/article_images/2004-9-1-longshan9.jpg

These guys won't quit :eek:

Stop trying to force the 8g kool aid down our mouths, we don't want it :rolleyes:

These guys won't quit :eek:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rotfl.gif

So true, so true. We don't wan't that rushed detail crushing 8G garbage. :D :D

isn't this thread entitled, Pioneer 8G vs. Samsung 81 series?

a couple of more people on ignore......again.......

Stop trying to force the 8g kool aid down our mouths, we don't want it :rolleyes:

These guys won't quit :eek:

Nice picture... besides the fact that I feel really queezy at the moment.

And what does comparing two TVs properly have to do with the Pioneer 8gs? Stop dancing footing around your fanboy issues. My complaints has nothing to do with his own impressions 8g Pioneers in itself, it's his methods of comparison. And if you can't differ from the two may I suggest you take some reading comprehension classes.

I don't care what the TV is. If you don't compare properly there's no reason to pass off your posts as something any of us could use as a viable impression. You can go ahead and do that Auditor. You're good at mixing up displays and facts... and apparently you're pretty good at chugging too.

I really doubt that problems part ;) Tech is advancing, so what? LED LCDs will advance much faster than plasmas. Do you know that 8G was rushed to the market? 8G isn't a real 10 lumen plasma. Do you know that Panasonic 11G has 4x Pioneer 8G contrast(measured).

And for people you're trying to convince to buy the 81 series... what's the incentive since they're progressing oh so fast?

And for people you're trying to convince to buy the 81 series... what's the incentive since they're progressing oh so fast?

Progressing on paper, not on our retinas(unless you wan't to burn your eyes out). The human eye is limiting factor even with 81 series.

Progressing on paper, not on our retinas. The human eye is limiting factor even with 81 series.

So these 81 series are the end all be all in your opinion? More or less..?

So these 81 series are the end all be all in your opinion? More or less..?

The end for (claimed high end)plasma, yes. This tech will cost next to nothing next year.

8G isn't a real 10 lumen plasma.You are correct. However, 10 lumen tech has nothing to do with minimum luminance. It deals with brightness, cost, and power consumption. Plasma manufacturers will be able to use the tech to provide brighter plasmas that use less power and will be cheaper to make....something (combined) that LD LCDs won't be capable of doing for 2 years.

Do you know that Panasonic 11G has 4x Pioneer 8G contrast(measured).I know a lot more about the 11G Panasonics than you do and can tell you that their contrast measurement is NOT 4x the KUROs. Just clear up your incompetence about them, Panasonic will be reducing the wall charge and using the 10 lumen tech to boost the brightness. However, neither will give the minimum luminance levels of the 9G Pioneers or it's contrast ratio which will have the same 10 lumen tech to boost brightness (again) while reducing price and power consumption.

10 lumen tech has nothing to do with minimum luminance. It has to deal with brightness and power consumption. Plasma manufacturers will be able to use the tech to provide brighter plasmas that use less power and will be cheaper to make....something (combined) that LD LCDs won't be capable of doing for 2 years.

Wrong on that minimum luminance and lcd part. Both max/min luminance is greatly improved. This is publicly available info... 1080P plasma will always use more power than led lcds. This is all basic knowledge and I won't waste my time with newbies like you again. You don't seem to know anything about tech apart from reading facts from Pioneer manuals. I feel a bit sorry for you, really.

The end for (claimed high end)plasma, yes. This tech will cost next to nothing next year.

Well let's see I guess. Always gotta turn it into a Pioneer cheapshot. Well I will give these flat panels more than a chance before I make a decision of buying.

So just for reference. if I just walk into a store w/ brightlights... and I make an 'offhand' remark about how equal the black levels were to its non local dimming brothers. I'm sure everyone here will agree that's fair. :)

So just for reference. if I just walk into a store w/ brightlights... and I make an 'offhand' remark about how equal the black levels were to its non local dimming brothers. I'm sure everyone here will agree that's fair. :)

Yeah, there will be that one display with incredible 3d effect even under bright store lighting.

Wrong on that minimum luminance and lcd part. Both max/min luminance is greatly improved. This is publicly available info... 1080P plasma will always use more power than led lcds. This is all basic knowledge and I won't waste my time with newbies like you again. You don't seem to know anything about tech apart from reading facts from Pioneer manuals. I feel a bit sorry for you, really.Ha! I suggest you read up on the 10 lumen tech AGAIN. Min luminance has nothing to do with the tech which all plasma manufacturers will have in their 2008 models.


cost + brightness + power consumtion = combined

Now take that formula and read my post again. LD LCDs will not be able to do ALL three of those things for at least 2 years (aka 2009).

Yeah, there will be that one display with incredible 3d effect even under bright store lighting.

There are those displays now. O_o Especially at the torch modes everyone's running at the fumes at. Can you tell me when I probably could go check one out Samp? This August I know... but more specific?

Ha! Your the noob. You can't even read a post correctly.

cost + brightness + power consumtion = combined

Now take that formula and read my post again. LD LCDs will not be able to do ALL three of those things for at least 2 years (aka 2009).

Cost will be at ccfl level in Q1 2008, brightness is already better and so is consumption. CCFL is much more efficient than plasma, btw. LED is superior tech which has huge industry backing and is in fast improvement period. There is no way plasma can compete with LED+LCD. If you would use some time to actually study things, you could be worthy of my time. I can download KURO manual from Pioneer website just by myself. Welcome to my ignore list.

Cost will be at ccfl level in Q1 2008, brightness is already better and so is consumption. CCFL is much more efficient than plasma, btw. LED is superior tech which has huge industry backing and is in fast improvement period. There is no way plasma can compete with LED+LCD. If you would use some time to actually study things, you could be worthy of my time. I can download KURO manual from Pioneer website just by myself. Welcome to my ignore list.Wow, I think I'm the first to piss Sampo off. Why wouldn't the LCD industry fully back LD LCDs? CCFL has done all it can do. The question should be how many are backing a 64 block dimming structure? Care to answer than one ;)

I think ya did D-nice. First time ever.

So is the true LED, the ones that do it pixel by pixel? Anyway, I too will go check those TVs out at Best Buy. I am expecting the greatest PQ ever in the history of universe-kind... while drinking on Kool-Aid... apparently.

LD LCD <> IMLED-LCD. IMLED-LCD is what I want. A 64 block dimming structure isn't anywhere near IMLED-LCD.

8G's black crush can't be properly measured with that meter, but it's still too obvious. Do you know that when calibrated gamma is below target, display is crushing detail? This is exactly what is happening here. HDTVtest used more accurate meter or are you questioning Vincent's ability to measure panels? That calibration report from umr can't be used to reveal 8G's severe white crush. Nice try though.

Tip for reading gamma:

If gamma is below target, image is too bright. If gamma is above target, image is too dark. UMR seems to have adjusted black level higher to avoid severe black crush.

Here is a Samsung plasma versus the Rec. 709 gamma with a target value of 2.2.

The Pioneer 5080 did not crush blacks or whites. Crush normally means the level in question is not visible. You could say it was too dark if you prefer a Rec. 709 gamma of 2.2. If you like a power curve gamma of 2.2 it was on target. If you like a power curve gamma of 2.5 is was lighter than that, but it could probably have been set for around a 2.5 simple power curve gamma. It can be very difficult to determine what is the best gamma for a display by numbers alone. You must look at the image and decide which curves are executed best. The lowest 20% percent of the gamma curve tends to dominate the look and some gammas can cause banding which is not evident in the values. For example, many Samsung displays will implement gamma curves that look good on paper, but result in an image that is heavily banded.

I could see details on the 5080 to a 1% picture level and up to the limit of white with Avia Pro which is about 110%. There where no problems with picture levels with the Pioneer 5080.

Yes, after calibration for certain APL value. However did the ire 0 reading get affected also? (you didn't have working equipment for that?)

Yes, after calibration for certain APL value. However did the ire 0 reading get affected also? :rolleyes:

It looked fine to me with test images and real images. I saw no signs of black or white crush.

It looked fine to me with test images and real images. I saw no signs of black or white crush.

Let me rephrase. Did your calibration affect 8G minimum luminance level?

Let me rephrase. Did your calibration affect 8G minimum luminance level?

I can't tell it was too dark to measure with the instrument I had with me. My other instrument for extreme low light was broken at the time. The display was very dark though before and after calibration.

It certainly did improve the color accuracy near black. The gray scale tracking on this display was poor before calibration. This change will reduce the appearance of noise and dramatically improve the appearance of objects as they fade to black.

I can't tell it was too dark to measure with the instrument I had with me. My other instrument for extreme low light was broken at the time. The display was very dark though before and after calibration.

OK. I have been hearing from various sources that 8G minimum luminance has to be raised a couple notches to achieve no crush with certain APL. Have these persons been missing some important fact with 8G calibration?

OK. I have been hearing from various sources that 8G minimum luminance has to raised a couple notches to achieve no crush with certain APL. Have these persons been missing some important fact with 8G calibration?

Near black performance is a huge part of what I do. They are probably not doing things properly to get this correct. A proper gray scale calibration with high quality equipment in the service mode would be one key part of this. I also use professional test patterns and real images that are very good at setting brightness correctly. It was not necessary to raise the display black level to avoid crush after I set it up. A slight amount (~1%) of crush is also not the end of the world either and is more preferable than other problems that can be caused by raising the black level.

Near black performance is a huge part of what I do. They are probably not doing things properly to get this correct. A proper gray scale calibration with high quality equipment in the service mode would be one key part of this.

How important part does accurate low luminance reading have in calibration, especially near black performance? Did you calibrate 8G to display brighter image than target curve? Gotta go. Thanks for your time.

How important part does accurate low luminance reading have in calibration, especially near black performance? Did you calibrate 8G to display brighter image than target curve? Gotta go. Thanks for your time.

The accuracy of the 0 percent luminance measurement when it is below 0.02 fL is meaningless in the calibration process. Only high black levels are a big factor in the measurement process. It is also impossible to measure color accurately below about 0.03 fL. Below this or whatever your instrument limit is the color measurement is useless. Getting the color right in the dark areas is much more important than knowing exactly how dark 0% or 10% luminance is. Therefore, on a display like this you must use your eyes in the dark areas of the picture to get things right. The instruments are more useful above about 0.2 fL and higher. The calibration process requires an understanding of where the instrumentation is useful and not useful. Quality instrumentation, test patterns and appropriate use of your eyes is critical to obtaining quality results.

I did not lower contrast to attempt to hit the target curve , but it may have been possible. However, almost no one finds a dim image to be attractive. My goal is as accurate and attractive image as possible.

Thank you Jeff for posting in this thread. it's good to have your ISF expertise on this forum.

Thank you Jeff for posting in this thread. it's good to have your ISF expertise on this forum.

No problem. I thought I might be able to clarify things since I was being quoted. I also found it strange that Pioneer was being slammed for gamma when I find more luminance issues with Samsung displays in general.

I did not lower contrast to attempt to hit the target curve , but it may have been possible. However, almost no one finds a dim image to be attractive. My goal is as accurate and attractive image as possible.

I know that most people are attracted by bright images. Some people pursue for accuracy without compromises, like the persons who had trouble calibrating 8G without introducing black crush. You have been more than helpful, thanks.

I know that most people are attracted by bright images. Some people pursue for accuracy without compromises, like the persons who had trouble calibrating 8G without introducing black crush. You have been more than helpful, thanks.

There was nothing intentionally inaccurate about the black level calibration or gray scale calibration for the 5080 I worked on. You also would probably need to lower the light output much below 30 fL to get a significantly lower gamma curve if it was possible at all. I find almost no one likes a display outside of a theater environment that is significantly below 30 fL.

If you are searching for absolute accuracy you will not find it. No display is perfect. The key thing is to try and find a display and setup with the most tolerable compromises for you. If you want a Rec. 709 curve for example you should look at Sony. They use the inverse of the Rec. 709 encoding curve in most of there products.

Again, we shall see when your 81 series arrives in stores. And your bold print is BS as all calibrators that have calibrated the 8G Pioneers have not come to that conclusion. So you can shove it up your <censoured> sampo.
Your spelling of censored is wrong. Yeah it sounds like you added a "u" that doesn't belong in there.

And what I've read here you fanboys are saying the 5080 doesn't crush blacks? I was impressed with the 5080 but the one I saw was a big time black crusher.

Your spelling of censored is wrong. Yeah it sounds like you added a "u" that doesn't belong in there.

And what I've read here you fanboys are saying the 5080 doesn't crush blacks? I was impressed with the 5080 but the one I saw was a big time black crusher.
Thank you for for being my personal spell checker. I see LCDs that crush blacks everyday. Did you have a remote in hand to look at the settings? Or perhaps it's because you are not use to true blacks with your personal LCD?

Thank you for for being my personal spell checker. I see LCDs that crush blacks everyday. Did you have a remote in hand to look at the settings? Or perhaps it's because you are not use to true blacks with your personal LCD?
Don't get defensive it was just an observation. I see black crush on almost all plasmas and LCD's. But the 5080 really stood out to me.

And I didn't see if I could change modes to see if I could get it out. And the B&M I go to, have one guy that plays with the settings and does a good job. Not like BB or CC just take them out of the box.

Don't get defensive it was just an observation. I see black crush on almost all plasmas and LCD's. But the 5080 really stood out to me.

And I didn't see if I could change modes to see if I could get it out. And the B&M I go to, have one guy that plays with the settings and does a good job. Not like BB or CC just take them out of the box.
Defensive? No. Useless observation? Absolutely. If you cannot report an observation of any display with remote in hand, keep it to yourself.

Sooner or later manufacturers are going to learn to either tweak their Dynamic modes or ship the plasma in standard mode.

Defensive? No. Useless observation? Absolutely. If you cannot report an observation of any display with remote in hand, keep it to yourself.

....

In store observations in general are worthless unless you have control of the source, display and environment. Getting a proper image on this display took me many hours. The blacks on the 5080 are also so dark it would be easy to be fooled that it is crushing blacks without good test material.

Defensive? No. Useless observation? Absolutely. If you cannot report an observation of any display with remote in hand, keep it to yourself.

Sooner or later manufacturers are going to learn to either tweak their Dynamic modes or ship the plasma in standard mode.
Well maybe I can give you a useful observation. When your post looks angry, your not getting your message across.

And I see way to much of this here in these forums. When you start calling members trolls, or other names it just doesn't work IMO.

Others do have different POV then you Pio guys.

Did I call anyone in this thread a troll? Or did I point out someone's 10th username?

And it might be wise you listen to your own words. Calling someone a fanboy is offensive.

Did I call anyone in this thread a troll? Or did I point out someone's 10th username?

And it might be wise you listen to your own words. Calling someone a fanboy is offensive.

Why would calling you a fanboy be offensive? You should be proud of it. Why not be proud of being a Pio loving plasma fanboy? Thats what you are isn't it?

But I should have not said "you" in my last post. That wasn't fair I don't know if you've ever called "sampo" a troll" or not. If this is sampo and its seems to me that calling someone a troll is to end the arguement or discussion.

Why all of a sudden do you (of all people) want to pull out a moral card? Labeling someone outside of what they call themselves can be offensive, correct? Would you be proud if I called you a dumba**? I'm pretty sure I can pull your post history and point where you were offended when you were called a fanboy.

If you want to label me a fanboy, label me a Pioneer/Panasonic plasma fanboy.

Why all of a sudden do you (of all people) want to pull out a moral card? Labeling someone outside of what they call themselves can be offensive, correct? Would you be proud if I called you a dumba**? I'm pretty sure I can pull your post history and point where you were offended when you were called a fanboy.

If you want to label me a fanboy, label me a Pioneer/Panasonic plasma fanboy.
Nah. You can look through all my posts. And you can call me anything you want, my point here is that one method to end discussions is to call members names. And I pointed out to you that an angry post doesn't get your message across.

my point here is that one method to end discussions is to call members names....... Ok, so since you called me a Pio fanboy, our discussion is over :D

In store observations in general are worthless unless you have control of the source, display and environment. Getting a proper image on this display took me many hours. The blacks on the 5080 are also so dark it would be easy to be fooled that it is crushing blacks without good test material.

Thanks UMR. People expect everything yet don't put in the work and effort to get desired results. When I get my setup in a proper home theater, I'd defintely pm you in interest. You've impressed me with your knowledge and the general consensus of the quality of your calibrations.

Thanks UMR. People expect everything yet don't put in the work and effort to get desired results. When I get my setup in a proper home theater, I'd defintely pm you in interest. You've impressed me with your knowledge and the general consensus of the quality of your calibrations.Lucky SOB :D My state isn't on his current tour schedule this year.

Lucky SOB :D My state isn't on his current tour schedule this year.

I don't even know if he's coming towards So Cal. Are ya Jeff? If so, I'd better get my sound system ready to go too... since I think people almost rave on those adjustments much more than even the video quality boost.

I don't even know if he's coming towards So Cal. Are ya Jeff? If so, I'd better get my sound system ready to go too... since I think people almost rave on those adjustments much more than even the video quality boost.

I will be in So. Cal in August and November this year. My schedule is at www.accucalhd.com/tours.htm. Most of my clients outside of Houston wait about 3 months before I am able to get them on my schedule. My August trip is already full, but I do keep a backup list in case I get cancellations.

Most peoples audio is horribly setup no matter what they have done. I have developed custom tools and techniques to deliver a very high quality at a very low price. I find audio is much more complex to get right than video although the odds of people having video right is also very small. When you combine the two the odds of someone having both anywhere near correct becomes infinitesimal. I do not generally perform video only calibrations outside of Houston because I am interested in an optimum home theater experience that is as much audio as video. I would suggest you have a sound system if you would like to book my services.

I also offer audio and video equipment purchase advice as part of my service for future and past clients.

Well maybe I can give you a useful observation. When your post looks angry, your not getting your message across.

And I see way to much of this here in these forums. When you start calling members trolls, or other names it just doesn't work IMO.

Others do have different POV then you Pio guys.

Um...you used your instead of you're. :D

Um...you used your instead of you're. :Dlmfao

I will be in So. Cal in August and November this year. My schedule is at www.accucalhd.com/tours.htm. Most of my clients outside of Houston wait about 3 months before I am able to get them on my schedule. My August trip is already full, but I do keep a backup list in case I get cancellations.

Most peoples audio is horribly setup no matter what they have done. I have developed custom tools and techniques to deliver a very high quality at a very low price. I find audio is much more complex to get right than video although the odds of people having video right is also very small. When you combine the two the odds of someone having both anywhere near correct becomes infinitesimal. I do not generally perform video only calibrations outside of Houston because I am interested in an optimum home theater experience that is as much audio as video. I would suggest you have a sound system if you would like to book my services.

I also offer audio and video equipment purchase advice as part of my service for future and past clients.Hopefully you will be in my "neck of the woods" next year.

You are correct. However, 10 lumen tech has nothing to do with minimum luminance. It deals with brightness, cost, and power consumption. Plasma manufacturers will be able to use the tech to provide brighter plasmas that use less power and will be cheaper to make....something (combined) that LD LCDs won't be capable of doing for 2 years.

I know a lot more about the 11G Panasonics than you do and can tell you that their contrast measurement is NOT 4x the KUROs. Just clear up your incompetence about them, Panasonic will be reducing the wall charge and using the 10 lumen tech to boost the brightness. However, neither will give the minimum luminance levels of the 9G Pioneers or it's contrast ratio which will have the same 10 lumen tech to boost brightness (again) while reducing price and power consumption.

:mad: Thanks for the info. Now I need to wait another year for my display. It definitely seems worth waiting for IMO. Maybe I'll pick up a 42" for the bedroom in the mean time. :D

The folks at my BB say they use factory settings on all their displays.
The Magnolia room was cocktail lounge lit, and LCD's were mixed side by side with plasmas.
The LCDs were visably brighter, the 1150 had better contrast and the deep black gave depth to the picture.
All had excellent definition, and colors were essentially the same.
But the 1150 was admittedly the better display (though not perfect).
Oh, BTW, I own a 5080.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP4280XD/
http://www.hdtvorg.co.uk/reviews/plasma/pioneer_pdp-428xd.htm

None of this matters though (yet I would still answer yes to all of the above). I saw what I saw and that's it. I can't lie to myself.

lie to yourself please do lie it has done wonders for me, I have a 11 years old 27" Sharp tv and I've been lying to myself ever since.

it can save you headaches!

;) :D

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP4280XD/


Thanks for posting that review for everyone to see. That review reveals 8G's horrible black crush. With crushed blacks 8G could beat previous hdtvtest black level record holder, the non local dimming Samsung M86 or 65 series LCD in NA. 8G black level has to be rised to make crush less obvious and this means worse blacks.

8G 768p black level is 0.0078 ft-L. Sharp D92 black level is 0.006 ft-L. CRT black level is below 0.001 ft-L. SED black level is 0 ft-L. Samsung 81 series black level is 0 ft-L. 81 series blacks can't be beaten simply because led lcds have perfect blacks. Maybe Pioneer will reach CRT blacks with some other display tech when they finally dump plasma as bad business decision. Too bad because the new standard will be LED LCD blacks. ;)

And for anyone doubting 81 series on screen blacks because of 2000:1 static native panel(8G is 3000:1): CRT has only ~200:1 static contrast with 4x4 checkerboard pattern(equal to only 16 dimming zones!) or 75:1 with 9x9 checkerboard pattern but is still able to fool human eye.

81 series will move every claimed high end plasma from store floor to garbage bin to make room for led lcds. LCD can't be beaten, Plasma market is declining and LED LCD will only accelerate this progress. Plasma is officially dead as high end display. And to be honest, it never was one.

http://i19.tinypic.com/4p29puv.jpg

I'm no expert when it comes to TV's but it doesn't take an expert to see the new Pio's have black crush.

Just like the review I agree its a terrific TV. But just like poor black level retention that can't be dialed out through the service menu (the plasma I owned a few years ago) I don't believe you can get the black crush out this one. But I know the guy that calibrates the TV's at my local B&M and I'm going to see if he can.

Here is the Y data from the 5080 I looked at in the same relative format as the article. I did not observe a significant dip below the 2.2 power curve as shown in the article quoted. The error in slope between any of the consecutive gamma points was certainly within the measurement error tolerance.

I find it odd that the reviewers conclusion was not quoted when his data is being used to condemn a display. Here it is...

I'm not sure if I have exhausted my vocabulary of superlatives in this review, but I'll sum it up in one sentence: the Pioneer PDP4280XD is the best flat panel television I've tested to date. After calibration, it fulfills most of my criteria for a reference-level picture quality. Awesome blacks? Check. Enormous dynamic range? Check. D65 greyscale? Check. Saturated but not overblown colours without hue and decoding errors? Check. Smooth as a baby's bottom 24fps handling? Check. Top-notch video processing? Check. No image retention, screen uniformity issues nor posterization? All check.

If you've been following the reviews on this website, you will know that the previous (seventh) generation of Pioneer plasmas were crippled by disappointingly average black levels and the infamous "dirty screen effect". By addressing and eradicating these shortcomings, Pioneer have a winner on their hands in the form of the PDP4280XD... I've even seriously considered keeping it as a point of reference for all my future reviews.

I find it odd that the reviewers conclusion was not quoted when his data is being used to condemn a display. Here it is...

It's just his style to give ratings for panels. He has gave rave reviews for many panels with obvious faults. He targeted ideal gamma, not cheap thrills gamma.


Cons

* Slightly indistinct shadow detail due to skewed 0-20% gamma tracking

... He targeted ideal gamma, not cheap thrills gamma.

Look at the 60% level point on the plot. He is not using the Rec. 709 inverse. That target curve is the 2.2 power curve.

Measureing at 10% level is also fraught with problems. My instrument was reading 0.25 fL at that point. Mine is still good at that level, but his was likely off.

Measureing at 10% level is also fraught with problems. My instrument was reading 0.25 fL at that point. Mine is still good at that level, but his was likely off.

So are you dissing his equipment? You can't directly compare 42" with 50" model. 42" has also lower minimum luminance. Pioneers "solution" to reduce black levels is more likely to be a desperate attempt to cash in with uneducated customers. (they have been posting huge losses because of plasmas)

This could lead to massive black crush problems with 1080P models. 8G has been reported to crush blacks all the way from the first demonstration...

Sampo, the 42" model does not have a lower min luminance. You have no detailed technical information about the Kuro cell structure as I do. The 42" has the worst black level out of the Kuro line, followed by the 50" 768p models, then the 60" 1080p models, and finally the 50" 1080p. In other words, the 50" 1080p models will have the lowest min luminance.

You keep regurgitation your same BS posts and it's not holding up to the facts.

BTW, how many displays has Vincent rated at reference level? Any Samsungs in the bunch? Didn't think so.

Maybe it's time to get Vincent in here to debunk your claims about his review ;)

I'm no expert when it comes to TV's but it doesn't take an expert to see the new Pio's have black crush.

Just like the review I agree its a terrific TV. But just like poor black level retention that can't be dialed out through the service menu (the plasma I owned a few years ago) I don't believe you can get the black crush out this one. But I know the guy that calibrates the TV's at my local B&M and I'm going to see if he can.What is the definition of black crush?

This message is hidden because D-Nice is on your ignore list.

Must be as true as qualia 005 having strobing leds? You can try to spread FUD, but you have been already exposed. Your comments have no value in this thread. Go back to read Kuro manual with other newbies, it must be your true calling.

Must be as true as qualia 005 has strobing leds? You can try to spread FUD, but you have been already exposed. Your comments have no value in this thread. Go back to help newbies read Kuro manual, it must be your true calling.Using your words, "prove me wrong" with valid technical facts.....if you actually can ;)

I'll be waiting.

So are you dissing his equipment? ...

I am saying it would be very easy for his equipment to be wrong. Measuring light accurately is difficult at best and much more difficult at 0.25 fL. Since Vincent does not list his equipment there is no way to know if his equipment is sufficient for the task. Taking his measurements at face value is a mistake especially at that light level. I have about $35,000 in light measurement equipment and reference sources to obtain the best measurements that I can and have a good idea of where mine are good and where they are bad.

What is the definition of black crush?
I define it as loss of black detail in black areas. The blacks when I was looking at the 5080 looked like a black blob with no detail in its blacks.

Also this will be the last time I respond to you because the way you respond to others.

.... Pioneers "solution" to reduce black levels is more likely to be a desperate attempt to cash in with uneducated customers. (they have been posting huge losses because of plasmas)
...

Losses are a problem in this industry period. Here is a recent report on Samsung.

http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSSEO13133220070720

The following recent report for Pioneer looks a little brighter, but I have not seen anything that looks very profitable in the HDTV display sector. I have not seen convincing data that display quality correlates with profitability either.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6441846.html?nid=2402

I define it as loss of black detail in black areas. The blacks when I was looking at the 5080 looked like a black blob with no detail in its blacks.

Also this will be the last time I respond to you because the way you respond to others.Ahh, you're returning to your viewing of the Pioneer in dynamic mode and you did not have a remote in hand. Place your LCD in dynamic mode and see how many "black blobs" you see ;) You're right, it's best if we don't "chat" anymore as, just like your uneducated J6P type observation, it's useless.

Losses are a problem in this industry period. Here is a recent report on Samsung.

http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSSEO13133220070720

The following recent report for Pioneer looks a little brighter, but I have not seen anything that looks very profitable in the HDTV display sector. I have not seen convincing data that display quality correlates with profitability either.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6441846.html?nid=2402

Only Panasonic has been doing profit among PDP makers. Perhaps you should look beyond PDP? Sony & Samsung LCD is hugely profitable business.

... Pioneers "solution" to reduce black levels is more likely to be a desperate attempt to cash in with uneducated customers. (they have been posting huge losses because of plasmas)

I believe you exaggerate. Here is an excerpt from a Business Week article. I would not enter a business like this with only a 5% margin.

...Samsung earned $167 million on sales of $3.14 billion in its LCD-panel business in the July-September quarter. That&apos;s a margin of 5%—not so impressive but still respectable in an LCD industry hampered by cutthroat competition that has forced rapid price declines...

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/nov2006/gb20061128_546338.htm

I believe you exaggerate. Here is an excerpt from a Business Week article. I would not enter a business like this with only a 5% margin.



http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/nov2006/gb20061128_546338.htm

I wonder why did you leave Sony Bravia numbers out :p

I wonder why did you leave Sony Bravia numbers out :p

Sony is a market leader, but I thought this thread was about Samsung and Pioneer. Here is a recent quote from Forbes on their profitability. It seems to me Samsung is a better story if you are looking for profits instead of revenue.

The company's TV segment made an operating loss of just 22.5 bln yen, 74 bln yen less than the loss it made a year before.

http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2007/05/16/afx3726060.html

Sony is a market leader, but I thought this thread was about Samsung and Pioneer. Here is a recent quote from Forbes on their profitability. It seems to me Samsung is a better story if you are looking for profits instead of revenue.



http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2007/05/16/afx3726060.html

Really interesting. I wonder what is included in that TV segment number. Gotta check sony fiscals...

Edit: OK. They have been increasing production and are looking to turn profit again. A company has to grow in this industry to remain competitive. This is something that Pioneer hasn't done. They have only increased prices. Frankly Pioneer is in dead end. Maybe they will get their panels from Panasonic soon. Pioneer without black crush would be cool...

Really interesting. I wonder what is included in that TV segment number. Gotta check sony fiscals...

Edit: OK. They have been increasing production and are looking to turn profit again. A company has to grow in this industry to remain competitive. This is something that Pioneer hasn't done. They have only increased prices. Frankly Pioneer is in dead end. Maybe they will get their panels from Panasonic soon. Pioneer without black crush would be cool...

I am not so optimistic. I sold my Sony stock after the run up in price last year. This segment looks like a blood bath to me for all of the major participants. Based on the size of display many people want LCD should be a large segment of the market, but whether significant profits follow is another question. All I know is that my investment dollars are not in that segment at this time.

This segment looks like a blood bath to me for all of the major participants. Based on the size of display many people want LCD should be a large segment of the market, but whether significant profits follow is another question.

True. There isn't room for small players apart from custom and super high end displays. Maybe there will be reward in the end for surviving players.

Sure. So you can assume that the Pios are "off your list" based on a pretty much useless comparison. Good enough for me. If that was deliberate on your part. You deserve all you find. :) Now I move on.


Wow u are a douche. He wasn't blown away by the set, leave him alone.

LD LCD <> IMLED-LCD. IMLED-LCD is what I want. A 64 block dimming structure isn't anywhere near IMLED-LCD.

You can get IMLED now. I'm sure brightside displays have dropped to a paltry 40K by now. Here D-nice, fix the phosphor lag on the 8G, and I'll quadruple the grid array on the 81series.

Both techs have shortcomings at this point imo.

However, I don't understand why you are not thrilled that Samsung is "rushing" this tech to the market. Do you have any understanding of what drives market forces? If this display does what Samsung claims it will do (and so far, their LCD's have been fantastic in QC), this could be a TV that a lot of people will appreciate. The Kuros is great for a lot of reasons, but not everyone can stand the artifacts that it and other plasmas have (like me :( ). I still can't believe that the phosphor lag bothered me as much as it did. I saw it on everything that was high contrast. I really wanted that Kuros...

You can get IMLED now. I'm sure brightside displays have dropped to a paltry 40K by now. Here D-nice, fix the phosphor lag on the 8G, and I'll quadruple the grid array on the 81series.

IMLED is necessary for HDR displays. 81 series isn't one. Even with 64+ dimming zones 81 series will perform better than crt contrast wise. Local dimming LED LCD is similar to CRT in many ways.

Will there be even better LED LCDs next year? You bet, but who wants to wait forever? Samsung is looking to score big time with 81 series. True crt replacement should finally be here. People should be happy for Samsung pushing the envelope.

IMLED is necessary for HDR displays. 81 series isn't one. Even with 64+ dimming zones 81 series will perform better than crt contrast wise. Local dimming LED LCD is similar to CRT in many ways.

Will there be even better LED LCDs next year? You bet, but who wants to wait forever? Samsung is looking to score big time with 81 series. True crt replacement should finally be here. People should be happy for Samsung pushing the envelope.

And what is your second choice if it shows that Summy 81 is not as good as you say?

And what is your second choice if it shows that Summy 81 is not as good as you say?

Dunno. Maybe 2008 model LED LCD(Sony, Sharp, Samsung) or Panasonic 11G(inferior blacks&contrast :p )? 8G is officially off my list.

Wow u are a douche. He wasn't blown away by the set, leave him alone.

I will. But not for your sake. :)

On second thought? Nah...

I think his knowledge for TV displays rivals your sophistication in insults. Both are pretty low. Now why don't you leave this thread alone before you go hurt you little head.

Dunno. Maybe 2008 model LED LCD(Sony, Sharp, Samsung) or Panasonic 11G(inferior blacks&contrast :p )? 8G is officially off my list.

Yea the 8gs are officially off my list too. Douches hate the new Pioneers. And I'm the biggest douche here.

And I'm proud of it!

On a serious note. Jeff, it's not worth it man. You did a great job explaining your dealings with the Pio and after that total BS 'thank you' bit, it seems all he's trying to do is twist your hand.

I will. But not for your sake. :)

On second thought? Nah...

I think his knowledge for TV displays rivals your sophistication in insults. Both are pretty low. Now why don't you leave this thread alone before you go hurt you little head.

We've woken the sleeping giant! :p

IMLED is necessary for HDR displays. 81 series isn't one. Even with 64+ dimming zones 81 series will perform better than crt contrast wise. Local dimming LED LCD is similar to CRT in many ways.

Will there be even better LED LCDs next year? You bet, but who wants to wait forever? Samsung is looking to score big time with 81 series. True crt replacement should finally be here. People should be happy for Samsung pushing the envelope.


Yes I agree with you wholly. On the last page of the 81 series thread there is a good link to the white paper that explains LD tech on the 768 version of the 81 that Samsung demonstrated. It puts my fears that there will be significant contrast artifacts to rest.

IMLED will obviously not happed for a long time. The technology will make a progression for the next several years towards that eventuality. We will see greater density LED arrays for higher luminence, but primarily more dimming zones. Like D-nice said in another thread Sony demonstrated one with something like 200 zones, for next year. I think there will be a point past which marketing will really have to take over, because it will impercetible. If 64 works, imagine how good 200 will be!

Still, even with only 64 zones, the 81 series is reaching a min contrast of 5000:1, and a max in frame of almost 20k! on the 768 p version. That's insane! The white paper shows that the 61/65 reaches something like 1k in frame (which is inline with the best LCD's). I mean that is a fantastic improvement.

It seems that the majority of the work is in creating algorithms for the dimming zones that make sense for maintaining decent contrast with imperceptible fluctuations across zones. I'm sure a few cases will be construed that show the shortcomings, but certainly nothing like motion interpolation artifacts that current LCD's exhibit (look at behardwares tests with colored triangles on black backgrounds).

edit: I definetely don't agree with your reasons for writing off the Kuros. Their black level is simply fantastic. I don't like them because I see too many motion artifacts, but that is something I see with all plasmas.

I would suggest you audition a Kuros before making judgements.

Oh no....less than 1% of the population sees artifacts on plasma. :rolleyes:
Better them than me. :D

IMLED is necessary for HDR displays. 81 series isn't one. Even with 64+ dimming zones 81 series will perform better than crt contrast wise. Local dimming LED LCD is similar to CRT in many ways.

Will there be even better LED LCDs next year? You bet, but who wants to wait forever? Samsung is looking to score big time with 81 series. True crt replacement should finally be here. People should be happy for Samsung pushing the envelope.
Well said. Even if 81 can't properly display HDR source right now, the emergence of this tech this early (honestly I was expecting the first such display to show up at the end of 2008 at the earliest - thank you SED for scaring manufacturers into bringing the fruits of their research projects to market earlier) sends a message to other manufacturers to do the same. I'm sure Dolby will be very happy to license this dynamic backlight technology to anyone who wants it in their products and after Samsung's 81 Series everyone will want to join the party resulting in more competition. This means better technology will arrive quicker and at lower prices. I wouldn't be surprised if this time next year we'll be hearing about true IMLED models entering the market while the less sophisticated versions of this technology will go mainstream (like 120Hz which was unheard of just year ago).

Like D-nice said in another thread Sony demonstrated one with something like 200 zones, for next year.

I know Sony dabbled in LED backlights before but I'm not aware of any of this. Is there any info out there that someone might point me to so I could verify this?

I think there will be a point past which marketing will really have to take over, because it will impercetible. If 64 works, imagine how good 200 will be!

We know for sure that anything over 1400 would have been redundant even back in 2005. I wouldn't be surprised if that number was much lower than that. Remember that the bulk of the BrightSide's invention is the algorithm that drives these LEDs. This algorithm is more crucial to PQ than the number of clusters.

Still, even with only 64 zones, the 81 series is reaching a min contrast of 5000:1, and a max in frame of almost 20k! on the 768 p version. That's insane! The white paper shows that the 61/65 reaches something like 1k in frame (which is inline with the best LCD's). I mean that is a fantastic improvement.

Yup.

I know Sony dabbled in LED backlights before but I'm not aware of any of this. Is there any info out there that someone might point me to so I could verify this?



We know for sure that anything over 1400 would have been redundant even back in 2005. I wouldn't be surprised if that number was much lower than that. Remember that the bulk of the BrightSide's invention is the algorithm that drives these LEDs. This algorithm is more crucial to PQ than the number of clusters.



Yup.


yup, but thats 1400 for a 37" model. Figuring that a 52" inch one would be something like 75% larger, the # of zones would have to increase in order to be 1/1 with the Brightside concept model. but yeah, I'm sure that 1400 would be overkill for any TV up to and including 60".

yeah your right, I'm sure there is a cut off point above which more dimming zones = no noticeable impact on iq. i wonder what that is. clearly samsung has chosen 64 zones very carefully as the lowest cost solution that delivers acceptable iq. now what their threshold for acceptable is remains to be seen.

Oh no....less than 1% of the population sees artifacts on plasma. :rolleyes:
Better them than me. :D

Well, I don't think it is less than 1%, but sure, I'm suffering :(

Mom noticed it too, but I had to make her look for it. Afterwards she could tell pretty easily. And she's pretty IQ (response time incl.) oblivious. I bet the average consumer could tell if told where to look. Obv. it bothers some much less than others. And I'm in that tiny minority that can see them, and rainbows, and can't stop focusing on them lol.

Well, I don't think it is less than 1%, but sure, I'm suffering :(

Mom noticed it too, but I had to make her look for it. Afterwards she could tell pretty easily. And she's pretty IQ (response time incl.) oblivious. I bet the average consumer could tell if told where to look. Obv. it bothers some much less than others. And I'm in that tiny minority that can see them, and rainbows, and can't stop focusing on them lol.

You wouldn't be waving your hand in front of your eyes when this happens, are you? ;)

Still, even with only 64 zones, the 81 series is reaching a min contrast of 5000:1, and a max in frame of almost 20k! on the 768 p version. That's insane! The white paper shows that the 61/65 reaches something like 1k in frame (which is inline with the best LCD's). I mean that is a fantastic improvement.

Actually for 81 series you have to more than double those numbers. Just look at CRT checkerboard static contrast numbers and think how grey blacks should CRT produce. Numbers just happen to click with human eye limitations. Large dynamic range(not hdr) is the key for good blacks. 81 series minimum contrast with 1920x1080 checkerboard pattern is theoretically 2000:1, well beyond human eye limitations.

I'm debunking 8G because it crushes blacks. Pioneer KURO tech is similar to reducing normal lcd backlight to minimum. Completely wrong approach. Upcoming Panasonic 11G is a good example of plasma done right.

I know Sony dabbled in LED backlights before but I'm not aware of any of this. Is there any info out there that someone might point me to so I could verify this?

He was just speculating that sony will demonstrate one at ces 2008. Sony has demonstrated a 82" led lcd at ces 2006 and 70" led lcd at ces 2007. Both w/o area based luminance control.

here's the 82 version:
http://uk.gizmodo.com/sony%2082in%20tv.jpg

In store observations in general are worthless unless you have control of the source, display and environment. Getting a proper image on this display took me many hours. The blacks on the 5080 are also so dark it would be easy to be fooled that it is crushing blacks without good test material.

I returned last night to the B&M that I noticed black crush on the 5080. I put the TV in three different modes, dynamic, standard, and movie. I defined black crush as loss of detail in black areas. I remain with my same observation as my last, its a terrific TV but has black crush IMO.

I ask you the same question does it take several hours to get a picture without black crush? And why does this TV require so much attention?

Also don't take my word for this I would like others to see if they have the same response. But please be honest about it, seems like bias plays a big role here in these forums.

...I ask you the same question does it take several hours to get a picture without black crush? And why does this TV require so much attention?
...

Every display I work on requires hours to get correct. Some displays will never have a good picture, but this is not one of those. I suspect you are seeing darker blacks than you like because you prefer a lower gamma or are not used to seeing a display that has this high of contrast ratio. To appreciate a display like this you need to watch it in a low light situation which is unlike most stores.

I'm debunking 8G because it crushes blacks. Pioneer KURO tech is similar to reducing normal lcd backlight to minimum. Completely wrong approach. Upcoming Panasonic 11G is a good example of plasma done right.You really need to stop acting like you know what Panasonic is doing, because you don't.

Please stick to your rushed 64 dimming zone LCD from Samsung and leave plasma tech to the big boys....little man ;)

Every display I work on requires hours to get correct. Some displays will never have a good picture, but this is not one of those. I suspect you are seeing darker blacks than you like because you prefer a lower gamma or are not used to seeing a display that has this high of contrast ratio. To appreciate a display like this you need to watch it in a low light situation which is unlike most stores.
My experience with this TV has had many parts to it. First time at the store I go too had it in a lighted area. I thought to myself it was just another plasma.

Second time they had moved it into a dark area. And I was really impressed with the dark rich colors and blacks. It had colors richer than any TV I've ever seen, its a very impressive TV.

My only criticism was the black crush I observed, and thats what I've reported. Thats all.

I'm debunking 8G because it crushes blacks. Pioneer KURO tech is similar to reducing normal lcd backlight to minimum. Completely wrong approach. Upcoming Panasonic 11G is a good example of plasma done right.

Panasonic 11G - is it coming this year? Where can I read more online? How do we know it could be 4X pioneer KURO's contrast?
Thank you for describing 81-series technology. However I have a problem with LCDs that ruins everything for me; it is MOTION BLUR. How can 8ms response time ever match CRT's 1ms?

11G is next year. And sampo knows nothing about Panasonic current or future products besides what is available on the internet.

Things 11G Panasonics will have:
10 lumen tech that boosts brightness, reduces power, and cost less to produce.
Reduction in wall charge.
Improved contrast ratios that will be similar to Pioneer's current Kuro line and next year's models.

Panasonic 11G - is it coming this year? Where can I read more online? How do we know it could be 4X pioneer KURO's contrast?
Thank you for describing 81-series technology. However I have a problem with LCDs that ruins everything for me; it is MOTION BLUR. How can 8ms response time ever match CRT's 1ms?

Next year. Read white papers on 10 lumen tech.

8ms panel refresh with strobing leds is good for up to 125p content without motion blur.

All consumer content is between 24p and 60p, so LED LCDs don't have any motion blur.

11G is next year. And sampo knows nothing about Panasonic current or future products besides what is available on the internet.

Things 11G Panasonics will have:
10 lumen tech that boosts brightness, reduces power, and cost less to produce.
Reduction in wall charge.
Improved contrast ratios that will be similar to Pioneer's current Kuro line and next year's models.

Really? For some reason I did not expect Panasonic to catch up next year since Pioneer isn't releasing their 'Kuro' technology to anyone.

It appears that the Pioneer 8G KURO's are the undisputed winners in the flat panel category thus far for 2007 with the Samsung 81 series emerging as the only potential contender thus far...

Really? For some reason I did not expect Panasonic to catch up next year since Pioneer isn't releasing their 'Kuro' technology to anyone.
I never said catch up. There is only so much you can do with horizontal cell priming. Reducing the wall charge is the last "evolutionary" step for that particular design.

Besides, Panasonic blacks are still very good.

I never said catch up. There is only so much you can do with horizontal cell priming. Reducing the wall charge is the last "evolutionary" step for that particular design..

Gotcha...I felt this years Pannys caught up to the 7G Pioneers. I don't expect that to be the case with next years 11G Pannys. Panasonic will unveil a newer released technology in 2008, but in reality it will be an older technology because of their plasmas are made. Thats what makes the 8G Pioneers are a great buy. Head and shoulders above the rest. :D

11G is next year. And sampo knows nothing about Panasonic current or future products besides what is available on the internet.

Things 11G Panasonics will have:
10 lumen tech that boosts brightness, reduces power, and cost less to produce.
Reduction in wall charge.
Improved contrast ratios that will be similar to Pioneer's current Kuro line and next year's models.

"Reduces power". Do you have information on how much of reduction will it be, how will the figures compare to this years models, and will next years' Kuro line also show a similar reduction in power consumption compared to this years. Thanks.

edit to correct spelling.
...

The power reduction will be about 50% of the current models. Next year's Kuro line will have the same reduction.

The power reduction will be about 50% of the current models. Next year's Kuro line will have the same reduction.

That is really a very significant reduction, and a great energy savings. If they can maintain at least the same picture quality as this year with that much of an energy savings, that should make Plasma very attractive to a lot more consumers. I assume that size power reduction will also reduce the amount of heat that is being cast off the panels.

...


...

Yep.

The power reduction will be about 50% of the current models. Next year's Kuro line will have the same reduction.

Any other improvements you're aware of for next year's Kuros?

While I got your attention go81, I wanted to ask you a question. I have the Samsung Blackjack and I'm really impressed with its slim design. What changes will be made for the new version of the Blackjack? I'll give you folks at Samsung credit for designing a great phone. :p

Oh and good luck with the 81 Series.

I have no idea. :D


Wow - I didn't know you worked for Samsung!

I am really looking forward to the i-760 :-)

Any news when it will start shipping for Verizon Wireless?

D-Nice's just smoking pot. Check this out:


Aww are you upset that Pansonic, Pioneer and Hitachi will have this tech next year instead of 2010 as your slide shows. Tisk, tisk, tisk. Too bad Samsung cannot use it next year...unless they steal patent info again ;)

Wow - I didn't know you worked for Samsung!

I am really looking forward to the i-760 :-)

Any news when it will start shipping for Verizon Wireless?There are much better PDAs coming compared to the SCH-i760 ;)

http://i15.tinypic.com/61wegt5.jpg

I wonder why this image got removed. ;)


The power reduction will be about 50% of the current models. Next year's Kuro line will have the same reduction.

Power reduction won't be 50% even between 2006 and 2010 models. On the other hand, Local Dimming LED LCDs get 50%+ power reduction this year.

http://i15.tinypic.com/61wegt5.jpg

I wonder why this image got removed. ;)Probably because you deleted your post again. I didn't put it in my quoted post of you as it wasn't necessary.

So stop being sleazy by deleting your posts;)

Power reduction won't be 50% even between 2006 and 2010 models...I guess you will find out at CEATEC and CES ;)

This message is hidden because D-Nice is on your ignore list.

I would recommend you to check that date on the image. Info comes directly from advanced pdp. You can pretend to know something, but you can't fool me.

I would recommend you to check that date on the image. Info comes directly from advanced pdp. You can pretend to know something, but you can't fool me.
3/07. Now at one point you were posting that Panasonic will have 10 lumen tech in their 11G models. Now you are claiming that the 50% power reduction benefits won't be available until 2010? Which one is it as 10 lumen tech isn't a "staggered" tech where one improvement will be one year, then add another the next year, and so on.

10 lumen tech is just a name for tech or dream.

10 Lumen doesn't mean that they will get 10lumen/watt efficiency right away. They are aiming for 3 lumen/watt efficiency for 1080p panels. Shouldn't you know this stuff ;) ;) ;) 768p is good for china&developing countries like Africa(1024x768 plasma is SD there). Hopefully they can sell 60"+ 1080p plasma to J6P for almost no charge. High End is reserved for LED LCD until OLED comes around.

10 lumen tech is just a name for tech or dream.

10 Lumen doesn't mean that they will get 10lumen/watt efficiency right away. They are aiming for 3 lumen/watt efficiency for 1080p panels. Shouldn't you know this stuff ;) ;) ;) 768p is good for china&developing countries like Africa(1024x768 plasma is SD there). Hopefully they can sell 60"+ 1080p plasma to J6P for almost no charge. High End is reserved for LED LCD until OLED comes around.Ahhhh so now you are retracting your 10 lumen claim that you were preaching a few days ago. You are a joke.

Let's see what happens when Panasonic releases a 32" or 37" 1080p plasma for $700 next year (you know, thats another benefit of the 10 lumen tech) ;)

Aww are you upset that Pansonic, Pioneer and Hitachi will have this tech next year instead of 2010 as your slide shows. Tisk, tisk, tisk. Too bad Samsung cannot use it next year...unless they steal patent info again

Do you know that Korean plasma manufacturers are also in 10 lumen tech sharing? This means that LG or Samsung can use 10 lumen tech. Actually LG is releasing 32" plasma next year. Must be news for you. ;)

Do you know that Korean plasma manufacturers are also in 10 lumen tech sharing? This means that LG or Samsung can use 10 lumen tech. Actually LG is releasing 32" plasma next year. Must be news for you. ;)LG and Samsung are not listed as members of the ADPC. When did they join? Didn't LG close one of their PDP lines this year? Isn't Samsung reducing their PDP production?

Sure Samsung can produce a 32" plasma by stealing the patents again. LG has no interest in a 32" pdp.

BTW, how's that Pioneer vs Samsung lawsuit going :)

Use google or call your source ;) I don't have time for this...

Use google or call your source ;) I don't have time for this...
Don't need to


http://www.advanced-pdp.jp/english/apdc/company/index.html

A good one D-Nice. Do you know that a company can sell rights to use its patents to other companies? Think about SED and Nano-Proprietary. I'm done teaching you for today.

A good one D-Nice. Do you know that a company can sell rights to use its patents to other companies? Think about SED and Nano-Proprietary. I'm done teaching you for today.Sure I know about licensing patents. However, there has been no mention ANYWHERE that the ADCP is doing this for LG and especially Samsung. Neither Pioneer nor Panasonic care to work with Samsung when it comes to patent licensing...or anything dealing with PDPs. LG, eh, they don't seem interested in <40" PDPs.

It will be interesting to see just how many 'teething' bugs and glitches are in this new tech of the Samsung. ;)

I have $100 on no less than 5 reported "issues" with the 81 series.

INTERVIEW - LG Elec aims for 11 percent sales rise in China
Sat Jul 7, 2007 2:03 PM IST162

LG Electronics said in May that it will supply 32-inch plasma panels for the Chinese TV market, as the loss-making flat screen division struggles to diversify its customer base.

Dig the rest up yourself.

INTERVIEW - LG Elec aims for 11 percent sales rise in China
Sat Jul 7, 2007 2:03 PM IST162

LG Electronics said in May that it will supply 32-inch plasma panels for the Chinese TV market, as the loss-making flat screen division struggles to diversify its customer base.

Dig the rest up yourself.Oh wow, the Chinese market. How about the rest of the world.

Doesn't Panasonic offer a 1366x768p 42" model there? And that 42" Panny model isn't 10 lumen tech so.....how is the 32" LG 10 lumen tech?

Hey this should be war between Sammy and Pio. Why you involve LG on it. :D

Hey this should be war between Sammy and Pio. Why you involve LG on it. :DHe lost the Sammy battle a long time ago. I'm going for the death blow now as he's discussing topics that he has no clue about:D

He lost the Sammy battle a long time ago. I'm going for the death blow now as he's discussing topics that he has no clue about:D

I can't wait for the 'Are you not entertained' ending....hehe

He lost the Sammy battle a long time ago. I'm going for the death blow now as he's discussing topics that he has no clue about:D

Maybe or maybe he has sent an e-mail to Kora to give you a good answer but it is night over there now :D

Wow. You are really taking this to heart with your fake newspapers.

I feel very sorry for you. Pissed off at someone who got the best of you on an internet message board....eh sampo.

The article got cut off...its actually located in the comic section :D

And so continues his deleted posts.

And so continues his deleted posts.

He's got to cover up his Samsung tracks...

He also has a lot of misspelled words in his newpaper :eek:

http://i9.tinypic.com/62sz4fl.jpg

Corrected :DDid you get right this time (the fifth reposting)?

Here is a grammar correction for you:

"After a disappointing Pioneer 8G......"

Next time take your time. I have all day to whip you :D

http://i11.tinypic.com/4q6amwn.jpg

:D

Correct headline and all. D-Nice must be pleased.

http://i11.tinypic.com/4q6amwn.jpg

:D

Correct headline and all. D-Nice must be pleased.You forgot the "a".

You forgot the "a".

Hah. So you do agree that Samsung 81 series crushes Pioneer 8G. Thanks. End of 8G vs 81 series "debate". :D :D :D

Hah. So you do agree that Samsung 81 series crushes Pioneer 8G. Thanks. End of 8G vs 81 series "debate". :D :D :DNo I don't. I'm just helping you with your poor English and grammar.

Use google or call your source ;) I don't have time for this...

I got a screenname for you after you get kicked or something Sampo. Mr. Contradiction. Hear me out!

- For a guy that has "no time"? You sure seem to have alot of time on your hands Mr. fake article writer.

- For a guy tired of talking to D-nice? You sure talk to him alot.

- For a guy who's so set on facts and articles? You continue to only choose what you want to hear.

- For a guy that's so 'helpful' to the ones curious about the Samsung LED tech? You sure don't think highly of us 'american idiots'.

- For a guy so not interested in the Kuro Pioneer Plasmas? You sure like to talk about them alot.

Type, type, type away Mr. Contradiction. SED is this. Pioneer is that. Sharp is this. Samsung Local Dimming for President! End of the day? I hope you get paid well. If anything positive I can say about you, it's your effort to get on these boards and mock us for fun is astounding. It might be worth it for Samsung for your services after all... NOT.

I hope all this trolling is time well-spent for you. I'll be intrested in a Samsung 81 series for sure. But you're defintely not helping me sway either way in my decision.

This message is hidden because D-Nice is on your ignore list.

Sure, D-Nice. There were left some errors just on purpose to get you trapped ;) Now after you have admitted that 8G is disappointing, there's nothing to discuss about anymore. :D :D :D

Wow, I would have loved to have seen an informative thread on the 81 vs. the 8G series. Instead I get 7 pages of name-calling, intermingled with a wee bit of information, very little of which is actually related to directly comparing the two. Sigh.

And while I recognize that go81 (slash sampo slash whatever other names he goes by) is the main purveyor of "noise," the constant need that some feel to refute each and every one of his posts only eggs him on and raises the level of noise to the point that this thread, and indeed this entire forum, are now increasingly difficult to use.

If that is go81's goal, and it seems to me that it just might be, I would have to characterize HIM as winning the war, and not those who win so many battles in ably refuting his posts.

Wow, I would have loved to have seen an informative thread on the 81 vs. the 8G series. Instead I get 7 pages of name-calling, intermingled with a wee bit of information, very little of which is actually related to directly comparing the two. Sigh.

And while I recognize that go81 (slash sampo slash whatever other names he goes by) is the main purveyor of "noise," the constant need that some feel to refute each and every one of his posts only eggs him on and raises the level of noise to the point that this thread, and indeed this entire forum, are now increasingly difficult to use.

If that is go81's goal, and it seems to me that it just might be, I would have to characterize HIM as winning the war, and not those who win so many battles in ably refuting his posts.

There's no war to win. It's just babble babble babble. And sometimes it's just entertaining to do so. Under all that crap there must be some good info. I was not knowledgeable on the 10 lumen stuff... and through their arguement they brought it out.

At least I took something away. D-nice is having fun. That I know for sure.

Sure, D-Nice. There were left some errors just on purpose to get you trapped ;) Now after you have admitted that 8G is disappointing, there's nothing to discuss about anymore. :D :D :D.......................................................... ....................................What?!?!??!

Wow, I would have loved to have seen an informative thread on the 81 vs. the 8G series. Instead I get 7 pages of name-calling, intermingled with a wee bit of information, very little of which is actually related to directly comparing the two. Sigh.

And while I recognize that go81 (slash sampo slash whatever other names he goes by) is the main purveyor of "noise," the constant need that some feel to refute each and every one of his posts only eggs him on and raises the level of noise to the point that this thread, and indeed this entire forum, are now increasingly difficult to use.

If that is go81's goal, and it seems to me that it just might be, I would have to characterize HIM as winning the war, and not those who win so many battles in ably refuting his posts.I will be more than happy to answer any question you have regarding these two panels.

I got a screenname for you after you get kicked or something Sampo. Mr. Contradiction. Hear me out!
...

Type, type, type away Mr. Contradiction. SED is this. Pioneer is that. Sharp is this. Samsung Local Dimming for President! End of the day? I hope you get paid well. If anything positive I can say about you, it's your effort to get on these boards and mock us for fun is astounding. It might be worth it for Samsung for your services after all... NOT.

I hope all this trolling is time well-spent for you. I'll be intrested in a Samsung 81 series for sure. But you're defintely not helping me sway either way in my decision.

Samsung is paying Go81 money to drive potential Samsung 81 series customers away? I don't get it...

D-nice is having fun. That I know for sure.Oh yeah! Sampo is hilarious. And it's very funny to see him squirm and get pissed off.

He has urked AVS for months. Payback is a <censored>

Wow, I would have loved to have seen an informative thread on the 81 vs. the 8G series. Instead I get 7 pages of name-calling, intermingled with a wee bit of information, very little of which is actually related to directly comparing the two. Sigh.

Agreed.

I came into this post to help decide between buying the 5080 or waiting for a Samsung. I am still in the research phase of buying my new TV.

Then it turned into recreational reading to find out what the next personal attack was going to be thrown at someone even though this is just a message board. At least I walk away being amused and knowing I should do some further research.

EJ

Samsung is paying Go81 money to drive potential Samsung 81 series customers away? I don't get it...

Sarcasm... I don't think he's trying to drive potnetial costumers away. I think he's just doing it on his own obliviousness. I own two Samsung TVs and I love em. That's the only reason I'm intrested in the 81... and maybe the fact that it's black level may eclipse what Pioneer is offering. But as D-nice said.. probably at a cost.

The thing is D-nice and Sampo or er... Bobo or whatever have good points. The difference is Sampo is playing the extreme bias game (because he works for Samsung). It's so one-sided w/ him that if I were interested in a Kuro and a Samsung... who's the more compelling voice? D-nice never went into a Samsung LED board to start trouble. Sampo began trolling instantly on the Pioneer threadss and made his disdain for Pioneer Plasmas obvious. That makes his opinion and his facts totally relevant?

It's fine if you want to buy a Samsung 81 series. But calling the Pioneer Plasmas disappointing? Making performance claims w/o any real true source? Judging a TV that he has never had a true viewing of w/ a TV that isn't out yet? Only using his own hard-nosed opinion and facts and ignoring everyone else who differs? Distorting facts just to win an arguement? And already declaring a winner between two of the TVs in the thread?

It's just way over-the-top. He's not helping my decision. Only furthering it out of annoyance.

It looks as if he's given up on this thread and has returned to the UK's avforums Pioneer 8G owners thread. God help them.


http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=544315&page=186

How about doing some challenging black level stuff? Even my led lcd monitor can display better white level picture than Pio.


Now ask yourself why would you trust anything he posts.

It looks as if he's given up on this thread and has returned to the UK's avforums Pioneer 8G owners thread. God help them.
:D

:DGive him hell !!!!

It looks as if he's given up on this thread and has returned to the UK's avforums Pioneer 8G owners thread. God help them.


http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=544315&page=186




Now ask yourself why would you trust anything he posts.

Anyone who would trust him blindly w/o checking for themselves deserves all they get honestly. It's called critical learning. I don't feel sorry for any of them. Samsung's fan's deserve a better spokesperson.

Give him hell !!!!

Nobody even answer him over here :D

High end standards:

Watching 8G is limited to dim environments because it's fosfor based display(grey washout). You can watch 81 series day/night and it will look black.

8G is OK for watching movies, but not good for ice hockey or bright scenes. This because plasma will decrease light output if there's a lot of white in scene. 81 series can handle any type of content just fine.

You can use 81 series with consoles or pc and there will be no fear of picture burn. Plasma has this problem.

Motion handling is similar.

81 series has better colors because of pure white RGB backlight.

81 series only includes FULL hd displays.

81 series can display pure whites, 8G displays yellowish whites.

81 series can display a jet black screen. 8G can't do this. 81 series has much more contrast than 8G and actually beats CRT.

8G series has better viewing angle than 81 series.

High end standards:

Watching 8G is limited to dim environments because it's fosfor based display(grey washout). You can watch 81 series day/night and it will look black.

8G is OK for watching movies, but not good for ice hockey or bright scenes. This because plasma will decrease light output if there's a lot of white in scene. 81 series can handle any type of content just fine.

You can use 81 series with consoles or pc and there will be no fear of picture burn. Plasma has this problem.

Motion handling is similar.

81 series has better colors because of pure white RGB backlight.

81 series only includes FULL hd displays.

81 series can display pure whites, 8G displays yellowish whites.

81 series can display a jet black screen. 8G can't do this. 81 series has much more contrast than 8G and actually beats CRT.

8G series has better viewing angle than 81 series.

I'll be testing these claims myself. Better than CRT I'll remember that. Pure white RGB backlight (whatever that's supposed to mean), I'll remember that too. I'm sure once I calibrate, the whites will be the same 6500k-ish white I've loved.

Watching 8G is limited to dim environments because it's fosfor based display(grey washout).[?QUOTE] The 8G Pioneer's blacks are as black as the Samsung 65 series LCDs in bright store type lighting. It will be even darker in your living room with daylight.
You can watch 81 series day/night and it will look black.[/QUOTE]You can do that right now with the base model Kuros (768p 16,000:1 contrast ratio)

8G is OK for watching movies, but not good for ice hockey or bright scenes. This because plasma will decrease light output if there's a lot of white in scene. Incorrect. The 8G Pioneers can almost burn your retinas if you really want it to.

81 series can handle any type of content just fine.That "any" is speculation as they are not available yet.

You can use 81 series with consoles or pc and there will be no fear of picture burn. Plasma has this problem.8G Pioneer's do not have this problem and owners have verified this in the US and UK.

81 series has better colors because of pure white RGB backlight.Based on what standard?

81 series only includes FULL hd displays.The Pioneers gives you the choice of 768p and 1080p.

81 series can display pure whites, 8G displays yellowish whites.Per who's definition and specs? D65 isn't blue white. If you want blue white, there is always dynamic and optimum mode on the 8G Pioneers.

81 series can display a jet black screen. 8G can't do this. 81 series has much more contrast than 8G and actually beats CRT.LD LED can turn all backlights off on a completely blank screen. Put a different color on the screen that does not match it's 64 dimming zone grid, and all bets are off. Wait until you see what the 1080p Kuros can do ;)

8G series has better viewing angle than 81 series.Any plasma has a better viewing angle when compared to any LCD.

High end standards:

Watching 8G is limited to dim environments because it's fosfor based display(grey washout)


Phosphor based still has the best colors, like crt. If you like cartoon color accuracy be my guest :D

Phosphor based still has the best colors, like crt. If you like cartoon color accuracy be my guest :D
oh boy, take a look from the SED thread Display perfection. 'Nuff Said.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11090225&&#post11090225

Thanks for that reminder. It's probably the reason why he deleted his post that quote Zues about 25 minutes ago.

oh boy, take a look from the SED thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11090225&&#post11090225


http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5038481&postcount=43

oh boy, take a look from the SED thread


So what, you base sed color is bad from one screenshot?

How about this one, not the greatest, but i see potential. :)


http://publish.it168.com/2006/1023/images/153312.jpg

I believe this thread has been quite informative. go81 has presented some great information and if not I believe the mods would have closed this thread by now. And when has all this name calling been permitted? I believe the mods believe there some value here or it would have been locked days ago.

The information has been worthwhile and the name calling shows me alot. Get your message out and stop calling members names and you'll look a hell of alot better.

oldcband,

Why are you back grumbling about nothing? If you want to follow and believe someone like sampo, that's your choice. However, don't think you can come into this thread and try try to play ref as you are no saint.

Also remember on the above sed screenshot you'''''re looking at a toshiba, canon, image. If it was a sony image it would look better, tv know how makes a big difference. I never seen a samsung image look good, unless you like pink skin tones. Maybe heavily calibrated it might look better, but i would not risk it. Has there ever been a samsung tube tv that was great, i did not think so, blown away by sony. Samsung rp-crt? LoL you guys know better, anything samsung makes me cringe. Mitsubishi has a better chance than anything samsung.

oldcband,

Why are you back grumbling about nothing? If you want to follow and believe someone like sampo, that's your choice. However, don't think you can come into this thread and try try to play ref as you are no saint.

Hypocrites is all D-nice. They can throw plenty of verbal punches but love to play 'the saint' when they're obviously out of ammo.

So what, you base sed color is bad from one screenshot?

How about this one, not the greatest, but i see potential. :)


http://publish.it168.com/2006/1023/images/153312.jpg

That girl is as cute as the SED bezel is ugly. Toshiba and Canon need to take a page out of Pioneer and Samsung's book in terms of exterior design.

Hypocrites is all D-nice. They can throw plenty of verbal punches but love to play 'the saint' when they're obviously out of ammo.
I'll relate my experiences, but have never claimed to be an expert and don't try to be. Never claimed that I had ammo, its because my ego doesn't need to be stroked. :p

I'll relate my experiences, but have never claimed to be an expert and don't try to be. Never claimed that I had ammo, its because my ego doesn't need to be stroked. :p

Well I got plenty of ego. I love ego. And I'll stroke it tenderly. :) Please, it's one thing to relate to your experiences. But to totally disregard logic and standards in your comparison "experiences" is ridiculous.

[QUOTE=johnnybrulez]Well I got plenty of ego. I love ego. QUOTE]


Well then I leave all this expertise to you and the other inflated ego's. :D

[QUOTE=johnnybrulez]Well I got plenty of ego. I love ego. QUOTE]
Well then I leave all this expertise to you and the other inflated ego's. :D

Nice!! :D

Well I got plenty of ego. I love ego. And I'll stroke it tenderly. :) Please, it's one thing to relate to your experiences. But to totally disregard logic and standards in your comparison "experiences" is ridiculous.
I believe that life is about learning hope this helps. Heres an important link:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Big-Ego-or-Self-Esteem?&id=106973

I believe that life is about learning hope this helps. Heres an important link:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Big-Ego-or-Self-Esteem?&id=106973

Oh lord... hah! Psychology forum. Oh dear. This is way off topic and maybe I'll look into it. Maybe all this ego really is just built up frustration inside and insecurities! Thank you. You've helped me very much.

And since life is all about 'learning' (which I totally agree). May I suggest you learn what 'brightness' setting is and what does to black level/shadow detail performance. Just because a TVs black level is so bad all details are noticeable, doesn't mean it has better shadow detail. I know it's a bit back in the thread this issue but er, it's much more relevant to this thread and forum... AVS and all.

I have an account over the Dr. Phil forums though. Maybe we can discuss my ego "problems" over there?

The holy war for the best display of 2007 continues. Let me at least try to inject some meaningful data to this mostly religious debate so far in this thread. Let's compare the specs related to how these two displays handle shadow detail. As I'm much more familiar with 81 Series than 8Gs, I entered Samsung data and would encourage some of you 8G experts here to fill in the rest. If there are other specs to consider, do tell.

Black Level: 81 Series (0 cd/m2), 8G ()
On/Off Contrast: 81 Series (infinite), 8G ()
ANSI Contrast: 81 Series (around 2K:1), 8G ()

This should give us more quantifiable idea of which display might be better.

Which would you like posted...the 768p Kuros or the 1080p Kuros?

Which would you like posted...the 768p Kuros or the 1080p Kuros?
1080p, as I understand they are expected to offer better "black" specs.

1080p, as I understand they are expected to offer better "black" specs.Let me check with my contact to see if they have improved the numbers on the minimum luminance side and i will be glad to post them.

I will post the ANSI contrast of the 768p Kuro....greater than 3000:1.

0 ftl on all black is pretty neat. 0 ftl in dark areas w/ other images besides just all black would be what's ideal.

The holy war for the best display of 2007 continues. Let me at least try to inject some meaningful data to this mostly religious debate so far in this thread. Let's compare the specs related to how these two displays handle shadow detail. As I'm much more familiar with 81 Series than 8Gs, I entered Samsung data and would encourage some of you 8G experts here to fill in the rest. If there are other specs to consider, do tell.

Black Level: 81 Series (0 cd/m2), 8G ()
On/Off Contrast: 81 Series (infinite), 8G ()
ANSI Contrast: 81 Series (around 2K:1), 8G ()

This should give us more quantifiable idea of which display might be better.How about a gray scale tracking plot (for both sets)? Deep blacks with poor gray scale tracking equals crushed blacks or whites .......no matter how great the CR may be.

0 ftl on all black is pretty neat. 0 ftl in dark areas w/ other images besides just all black would be what's ideal.It would be ideal but not necessary as we can only perceive a small portion of our entire dynamic range in a single frame so when viewing a checkerboard pattern the black squares look genuinely black even though, in reality, the measured light output wouldn't be 0. Still, the numbers representing instantaneous dynamic range I've seen being used by experts range from 10K:1 to 100K:1 so a decent static contrast is a must.

http://i11.tinypic.com/4q6amwn.jpg

:D

Correct headline and all. D-Nice must be pleased.

Unless you check out the date..... :rolleyes: Last time I checked we are still in July of 2007. ;) The date on that paper has a date of Monday, August 30 2007. :eek: Unless someone has a time machine. :p

It would be ideal but not necessary as we can only perceive a small portion of our entire dynamic range in a single frame so when viewing a checkerboard pattern the black squares look genuinely black even though, in reality, the measured light output wouldn't be 0. Still, the numbers representing instantaneous dynamic range I've seen being used by experts range from 10K:1 to 100K:1 so a decent static contrast is a must.

Doesn't it also depend on how big of a screen we're talking about and how close we sit? Yes, if there's enough brightness around 'dark' areas they will seem black. But how about the scenes w/ a good amount of black and some white? Yes, our eyes are like an iris where it's closing and opening all the time. But remember, if your eyes focus on a dark area, it will adjust and a 'floating' black will be noticeable. Especially on black bars and such.

Not saying the Samsung dimming will do the later. I am just hoping the blacks will stay inky in a stable manner regardless of what's on screen from the bright scenes and dark, and everything in between.

Doesn't it also depend on how big of a screen we're talking about and how close we sit? Yes, if there's enough brightness around 'dark' areas they will seem black. But how about the scenes w/ a good amount of black and some white? Yes, our eyes are like an iris where it's closing and opening all the time. But remember, if your eyes focus on a dark area, it will adjust and a 'floating' black will be noticeable. Especially on black bars and such.

Not saying the Samsung dimming will do the later. I am just hoping the blacks will stay inky in a stable manner regardless of what's on screen from the bright scenes and dark, and everything in between.Doom would be a good movie to test for both panels.

I'll relate my experiences, but have never claimed to be an expert and don't try to be. Never claimed that I had ammo, its because my ego doesn't need to be stroked. :p

That last sentence is you stroking your ego. You are very egotistical about how well you manage your ego. :p

Doom would be a good movie to test for both panels.

Most definetly. That's my TV torture test movie anyway!

I'm not really concerned w/ all black screens, because I just don't sit there and stare at fade-outs. I am more concerned w/ actual scenes in movies. An all black screen Kuro 768p in really dim lighting was quite impressive. With all the lights off (I mean 0 light in the room... literally.) The glow was still there at 0IRE. It was when I was watching actual video material where I was just blown away by the black reproduction.

Even in really dark scenes I never felt I was looking at dark gray. I've never had that experience w/ any digital display. And if the 1080p manages to get darker on all black screens as well as real video material... let's just say the Samsung 81 better be friggin amazing to get my money this late summer. I'm not going to look at an all black screen and judge. I'll be watching video... i.e. Doom and what not.

Not that I don't mind on/off contrast ratio measurements. It's just not the whole story. It's potentially a big part of performance yes... but it isn't the end all be all.

Doesn't it also depend on how big of a screen we're talking about and how close we sit?Yes, to some extent.

Yes, if there's enough brightness around 'dark' areas they will seem black. But how about the scenes w/ a good amount of black and some white?Judging from available test patterns and their measurements, scenes like that score in the range of 5K:1 to 20K:1 (the bigger the area that's dark, the higher the number). With more clusters, these numbers could be much higher.

Yes, to some extent.

Judging from available test patterns and their measurements, scenes like that score in the range of 5K:1 to 20K:1 (the bigger the area that's dark, the higher the number). With more clusters, these numbers could be much higher.

Ya know w/ a dimming tech like Samsung, I'd love like a demo of it. How it works and such. It'd be interesting to say the least. Really good idea that Sammy has on paper. I don't know why more LCDs don't adopt it.

Sure there might be some caveats but if they really get this local dimming down it can hold people off on those OLED Tvs for quite awhile. Let's just pray the dimming works as well as advertised. This is one time where I want my next kick-ass display to be a tough call.

http://i11.tinypic.com/4q6amwn.jpg

:D

Correct headline and all. D-Nice must be pleased.

Wow. That sure hit the streets early. Will you have a copy of the September 30 2007 edition tomorrow. Why are you afraid to reveal the full name of your fake newspaper?. Is it because you named it after yourself: The Daily Nuisance. :rolleyes:

...

Ya know w/ a dimming tech like Samsung, I'd love like a demo of it. How it works and such. It'd be interesting to say the least. Really good idea that Sammy has on paper. I don't know why more LCDs don't adopt it.

Sure there might be some caveats but if they really get this local dimming down it can hold people off on those OLED Tvs for quite awhile. Let's just pray the dimming works as well as advertised. This is one time where I want my next kick-ass display to be a tough call.

I am holding off until I see both the 60 inch 1080p KUROs and the 81 series 57 series LCD panel - I have seen enough of the current KUROS to know 1080p will be just as good or better ( with higher CR, resolution, etc. ) but the Samsung's may turn out to be an interesting surprise...

Dimming zones are a great idea if you have one for each and every pixel. (like the Kuro has)

Anything else would only work for a test pattern where the image pixels exactly lined up with the Dimming zones. The only real world application is for the occasional fade to black in which case one dimming zone would do.

What gimmicky crock.

Ken

Read the white papers son, then you will understand how local dimming works and why 64 zones will be enough. I can't wait to see the look of all you 8g worshipers faces when the 81 series comes out and is way better the the 8g. I'll wager alot of you will suddenly be on vacation from this forum for a while. :D People like Dnice will have to stick to 8g only threads and never show their face again. LOL.LOL. I can't wait. Everyone will then realize that go81 was right all along. The reason? He owns a time machine and has spent many hours analyzing the 81 and 8g and the 81 was clearly better.

Ahhhh so now you are retracting your 10 lumen claim that you were preaching a few days ago. You are a joke.

Let's see what happens when Panasonic releases a 32" or 37" 1080p plasma for $700 next year (you know, thats another benefit of the 10 lumen tech) ;)

How firm is that projection, and what do you suppose Pioneer will counter with?. Thanks.

....

Ya know w/ a dimming tech like Samsung, I'd love like a demo of it. How it works and such. It'd be interesting to say the least. Really good idea that Sammy has on paper. I don't know why more LCDs don't adopt it.Frankly, I was expecting this technology to show up at the end of next year at the earliest. The fact that Samsung decided to sell early versions of it in the Summer 07 is a very, very good thing for people who've been waiting to replace their CRTs.

But Samsung won't be alone. At the beginning of this year LG.Philips announced their 47'' "local area luminance control" LED LCD (http://aving.net/usa/news/default.asp?mode=read&c_num=35258&C_Code=09&mn_name=news) with 1M:1 contrast. It was scheduled for release in Q2 but it's been delayed. Other manufacturers work on their implementations as well. Next CES should be very interesting.

Frankly, I was expecting this technology to show up at the end of next year at the earliest. The fact that Samsung decided to sell early versions of it in the Summer 07 is a very, very good thing for people who've been waiting to replace their CRTs.

But Samsung won't be alone. At the beginning of this year LG.Philips announced their 47'' "local area luminance control" LED LCD (http://aving.net/usa/news/default.asp?mode=read&c_num=35258&C_Code=09&mn_name=news) with 1M:1 contrast. It was scheduled for release in Q2 but it's been delayed. Other manufacturers work on their implementations as well. Next CES should be very interesting.

Ya know... since they are capable of all black on a 0ire test pattern. Why not say your contrast ratio is "infinite"? That sounds a heck of alot better than 1 milion to or whatever to 1.

Ya know... since they are capable of all black on a 0ire test pattern. Why not say your contrast ratio is "infinite"? That sounds a heck of alot better than 1 milion to or whatever to 1.They don't want to call it infinite because salespeople would have to explain what this means to average consumers (and who needs a math lesson?). It's a marketing thing. I would much rather want these companies to replace dynamic contrast spec with the lowest light output.

Read the white papers son, then you will understand how local dimming works and why 64 zones will be enough. I can't wait to see the look of all you 8g worshipers faces when the 81 series comes out and is way better the the 8g. I'll wager alot of you will suddenly be on vacation from this forum for a while. :D People like Dnice will have to stick to 8g only threads and never show their face again. LOL.LOL. I can't wait. Everyone will then realize that go81 was right all along. The reason? He owns a time machine and has spent many hours analyzing the 81 and 8g and the 81 was clearly better.

That was one of the poorest attempts at trash talking I've heard in quite some time. No retort necessary.

I'm really happy about this thread because it made me realize that I'd be better off going FPJ in my new home. With the flat panel prices likely going for 5-8k (in Taiwan market) for the models I'd be interested in I'd be better off investing in a new receiver, speakers, projector and screen for about the same price. Good 1080p DLP/LCoS projectors should be available for about 3k by the time I purchase and then it will be easier to justify an upgrade in the future as opposed to an 8k flat panel since I'll only need to upgrade the PJ and perhaps the screen if they don't fit together right.

I'll definitely pick up a panel for the family room in the future when we finally get HDTV, but since I just watch movies 90% of the time FPJ is definitely better for me in the dedicated room. My current CRT is still great for our crappy analog cable now.

Thanks for all the info D-Nice. Hopefully once the 81 series gets trashed in professional reviews Sampo will disappear for good. ;)

The reason? He owns a time machine and has spent many hours analyzing the 81 and 8g and the 81 was clearly better.

Actually I would recommend the 8G for the blind. The reason? When plasma is working on its limit to try display a white or nice bright outdoor picture, blind people can actually hear that something is happening. Small noise=dark picture, annoing noise=bright picture.

Pioneer 8G the best display of 2007 for the blind!

More on 8G vs 81:

81 doesn't have green trail issue. 8G has.

81 has razor sharp picture. 8G is always out-of-focus. Bad for bluray/hddvd.

81 picture is noise-free. 8G picture is noisy.

81 has wider color gamut than 8G

81 consumes FAR less power.

81 doesn't have dirty screen issue. 8G has.

81 doesn't have plasma rainbows, 8G has.

81 doesn't have any of typical plasma issues. 8G has.

Why does this topic even exist? Because of Pioneer's hype machine?