During the last several weeks most everyone has received their JVC RS1. Now that that lengthy phase is over with, I thought it would be worthwhile to compare how much visible noise we as individuals are observing with disc (repeatable by others) sources.

Critically viewing using 1080p projectors, Blue-ray and HD-DVD discs are all a relatively new experience. So just how far has the high definition playback technology progressed in the last year? Is noise degrading the viewing experience?

Its difficult for any one of us to make that definitive statement as most systems are only as good as their weakest link. This threads intent is to allow members to document and share with other members the amount and type of noise they are seeing. We especially want to hear if you frequently observe visible noise in your picture. Hopefully we members can categorize the source of the noise and suggest ways to eliminate or at least reduce it.

Since RS1 owners share consistent unit-to-unit high quality projector, let us largely eliminate the projector as a variable. But please do state the screen type, size and menu settings used for the observations. HDMI connections are assumed. Also list you source and chain of playback equipment.

Here is my playback info:
Screen: Da-lite High Power, 16*9, 119”
RS1 settings: Red=0, Green=-32, Blue=-55 (member Lovingdvds calibration)
No overscan, cinema mode, Normal gamma
Sources: Toshiba Xa2 1920*1080@60Hz, Sony PS3 1920*1080@24 or 60Hz, all HDMI

Note: noise is defined to be largely random in nature: try not to confuse it with digital artifacts . What are the possible noise sources?

Simply list the SD-DVD, Blu-ray or HD-VD disc title and state how much noise you are seeing. If its in a particular location then state where.
Note: I will try list a title and my observations this evening.

An interesting and worthwhile idea to look at what people consider as "noise" in current display systems...and by systems I mean the whole chain from the source to the display.

As a baseline, I would recommend that anyone who has PC that will output 1920x1080 via DVI or HDMI connect their PC to the RS1 and view some still images in full-res. You will see there is NO noise...zero, nada, none. While you've got that hooked up, run the sharpness and DNR to upper and lower limits and observe the differences in the image...easier to observe with a static image.

Back to the "noise", what people are seeing now is a complex interaction between film grain and compression algorithms...and the decisions made in the mastering process. Film grain takes on a far different look on different sized displays and different sources. The difference between a 720p/DVD image and a 1080p/HDDVD/BD is huge...film grain just cannot be rendered naturally on lower res displays and sources. Add to that that many are coming to large FPTV images from smaller RPTV's, LCD/Plasma or direct view CRT's and they are able to see things in images that were concealed by the size/viewing distance or low-resolution of the display. I'll add that those of you who sit in the back of a movie theater have a far different visual experience than those of us who sit in the front 1/3rd of the theater, as it pertains to the "look" of the film.

We went through all this years ago when I was involved in some of the early Digital Cinema development...it was not until we were able to compare 2K to the then available 1K or analog displays that we were finally able to resolve film grain (and the artistic aspect of that) the way it would appear when "film projected".

In my way of thinking, we don't have a "noise" problem here...at least not one that you can really do anything about...with an HDMI signal chain and HDDVD/BD/DVD sources, you're seeing what is on the disc, for better or worse.

Cheers,

I'm with Tom on this one. The best sources dont demonstrate noise. Therefor no part of the system seems to demonstrate noise. I'd bet 100% of what people complain about is source material related.

This is at least true for the RS1. I do see projector related artifacts on other technologies

Gotta agree, here.

Having seen Transformers twice now, (digital) and (not digital), the "noise" that we are seeing in certain source material definitely appears to be identical to the "noise", or what appears to be film grain, that is evident in several scenes of this movie

Batman Begins (HD1), several scenes, particularly the prison cell scene towards the beginning, lots of grain. In Transformers (theaters), several scenes, but I made particular note of scenes in Air Force One, shots of the agents and others in their dark suits.

Take 2 projectors - the Sharp Z12k II and the RS-1, use the exact same equipment chain in the same room, with the same source material, the same lighting, the same 139" wide HP, etc. and the RS-1 shows noticeably more noise or grain (I really don't know which it is) than the Sharp, yet the Sharp projects the sharper image. The RS-1 shows more grain/noise than any other projector I have owned. But since I have no credibility, don't believe me....but you can ask Ian, Shawn, and Harry...they were there and witnessed the same thing, though I spent a lot longer doing comparisons once I got my own Z12k.

My RS1 has no noise issue. Noise free sources look noise free.

My RS1 has no noise issue. Noise free sources look noise free.

Same here.

DAzzer

Well, a very simple test to see whether the noise is in the source or signal chain is to freeze/pause your source machine. If the noise is in the source, it will be rock solid steady...if in the signal chain you will still see it moving in the image.

DLP, either single or 3-chip, is a little different in that you will always see spatial dithering going on in dark areas of the image, whether with a computer source or a paused film-based source.

I would agree with Bob (even tho he professes no credibility) in that the RS1 is particularly revealing in terms of showing grain/compression artifacts in source material, tho I'm a little lost on how you can do a relevant comparison between a 720 and 1080 projector in this regard. Several RS1's are being used in production for viewing dailies and evaluating digital intermediate material where showing every detail is a valuable feature. Before anyone jumps on the extended primary issue, the colors are being corrected with an external processor with 3D LUT.

Cheers,

Well, a very simple test to see whether the noise is in the source or signal chain is to freeze/pause your source machine. If the noise is in the source, it will be rock solid steady...if in the signal chain you will still see it moving in the image.

DLP, either single or 3-chip, is a little different in that you will always see spatial dithering going on in dark areas of the image, whether with a computer source or a paused film-based source.

I would agree with Bob (even tho he professes no credibility) in that the RS1 is particularly revealing in terms of showing grain/compression artifacts in source material, tho I'm a little lost on how you can do a relevant comparison between a 720 and 1080 projector in this regard. Several RS1's are being used in production for viewing dailies and evaluating digital intermediate material where showing every detail is a valuable feature. Before anyone jumps on the extended primary issue, the colors are being corrected with an external processor with 3D LUT.

Cheers,

Hi Tom,
Before anyone jumps on the extended primary issue, the colors are being corrected with an external processor with 3D LUT.
And that external processor would be??
mark

Before anyone jumps on the extended primary issue, the colors are being corrected with an external processor with 3D LUT.


How does an average Joe get this stuff?

Tom,

"I would agree with Bob (even tho he professes no credibility) in that the RS1 is particularly revealing in terms of showing grain/compression artifacts in source material, tho I'm a little lost on how you can do a relevant comparison between a 720 and 1080 projector in this regard."

We were looking to see if the noise was present when watched the same material on the Sharp. In other words was it in the source or was it being added by the RS-1. What we found is that the places we were looking at 'noise' was visible on the Sharp too. So it wasn't being added by the RS-1, though it was plainly more obvious on the RS1 for better or worse. For example there was a scene on X3 where Xavier and Magneto are walking into Jean Grey's house and the 'noise' on Patrick Stuarts face looked terrible. It was there on the Sharp too but not to the same degree. Likewise there was another scene in X3 on the RS1 where I'm 99% sure it was just a still shown continually due to the almost total lack of all 'noise' in the picture.

Regarding the 'noise' is it the RS1 just being more revealing or is the RS1 got something going on that accentuates the noise.... I can't say. Based on other stuff I have fed it it looks like the RS1 can be fed things that upset it somewhere internally with visual artifacts/consequences.

Shawn

Not to derail the thread, but according to the infallible wikipedia there are several...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_LUT

Looks like all of these are high end post production video processors.

Tom,

"I would agree with Bob (even tho he professes no credibility) in that the RS1 is particularly revealing in terms of showing grain/compression artifacts in source material, tho I'm a little lost on how you can do a relevant comparison between a 720 and 1080 projector in this regard."

We were looking to see if the noise was present when watched the same material on the Sharp. In other words was it in the source or was it being added by the RS-1. What we found is that the places we were looking at 'noise' was visible on the Sharp too. So it wasn't being added by the RS-1, though it was plainly more obvious on the RS1 for better or worse. For example there was a scene on X3 where Xavier and Magneto are walking into Jean Grey's house and the 'noise' on Patrick Stuarts face looked terrible. It was there on the Sharp too but not to the same degree. Likewise there was another scene in X3 on the RS1 where I'm 99% sure it was just a still shown continually due to the almost total lack of all 'noise' in the picture.

Regarding the 'noise' is it the RS1 just being more revealing or is the RS1 got something going on that accentuates the noise.... I can't say. Based on other stuff I have fed it it looks like the RS1 can be fed things that upset it somewhere internally with visual artifacts/consequences.

Shawn

Shawn

How did the Lumens output vary between the two PJ's your compared ? The reason I ask is that if I add an ND filter to my JVC the "noise" that is present in some source appears reduced.

I also find with the "sharpness" setting at -12 source noise ie reduced (with no ND filter) without loss of overall image "sharpness". Is the sharpness control what Gennum call detail enhancement setting ? Did you vary these setting in your comparison ?

Dazzer

Given that my 12:15 flight is now not going to leave until 3pm at the earliest, I guess I can stir the pot here for a while...

Shawn, 720p projectors likely do some input filtering in the down conversion process that would mask noise/grain...that would explain why the Sharp would look "cleaner". I'd be curious to see the same comparo with a Sharp 20K and 12K to see how they both deal with grain/compression artifacts.

Mark, most are using Teranex processors or production systems like Discreet or Truelight which allow all sorts of color correction capabilities.

I have to agree with most everyone here - the RS1 does not add noise where no noise exists, it is simply very revealing of source flaws/grain. The opening black and white night scenes from Casino Royale have a huge amount of noise/grain, yet most of the ensuing color "chase scene" where 007 is chasing the bomb maker look pristene.

One of the big surprises was how clean Underworld: Evolution looked on BD considering the fact that most of the movie is relatively low light and I expected to see more grain.

Although it is impressive that the RS1 is that sensitive to what you feed it, sometimes I wish I had my old H79 so that I wouldn't see how crappy some hi-def transfers (HD DVD and BD alike) look.

"How did the Lumens output vary between the two PJ's your compared ? The reason I ask is that if I add an ND filter to my JVC the "noise" that is present in some source appears reduced."

Didn't measure it so it would be hard to say for sure but by eyeballing it I think they were somewhat close. We also tried a Ruby (brand new bulb) and as I recall it was brighter then both the Sharp and the JVC yet the 'noise' wasn't as obvious with it either.

It was my Z12k I had brought to Bob's place. Based on measurements I had done of my RS1 and that Sharp as I recall the RS1 is roughly 2 or 2.5 times brighter then the Sharp in its best contrast mode (what we were using most of the time I think). However Bob's RS1 had more hours on it (what the Sharp was compared against) so it may have been a smaller difference. Also the picture size was quite a bit different, the RS1 was throwing a much larger image (through an ISCOIII) then the Sharp so that would have reduced its brightness too.

I don't think we touched the controls in the RS1. Both projectors were fed native rate from a CrystalioII.

Shawn

"Shawn, 720p projectors likely do some input filtering in the down conversion process that would mask noise/grain...that would explain why the Sharp would look "cleaner". I'd be curious to see the same comparo with a Sharp 20K and 12K to see how they both deal with grain/compression artifacts."

Down conversion didn't occur in the Sharp. It was fed 720p from a CrystallioII which is what fed everything at its native rate. We also had a Ruby (briefly) in the comparison too though it wasn't in for long as we were running into time constraints and everyone wanted to see the Sharp I brought.

FWIW I had seen plenty of noisy scenes on the Sharp too. A yellow car on the 'Friday Night Lights' HD-DVD looked horrible on the Sharp from all the noise for example. Haven't tried watching that scene again on the RS1 to see how it compares.

Shawn

Take 2 projectors - the Sharp Z12k II and the RS-1, use the exact same equipment chain in the same room, with the same source material, the same lighting, the same 139" wide HP, etc. and the RS-1 shows noticeably more noise or grain (I really don't know which it is) than the Sharp, yet the Sharp projects the sharper image. The RS-1 shows more grain/noise than any other projector I have owned. But since I have no credibility, don't believe me....but you can ask Ian, Shawn, and Harry...they were there and witnessed the same thing, though I spent a lot longer doing comparisons once I got my own Z12k.

Noone disagrees that the RS1 seems to be more revealing, of grain/noise and detail. Its a little bit different to find this believable versus when you say you measured your Sharp 12k, in its best contrast mode, at the same throw, and/as the RS1 and they were putting out the same amount of brightness/lumens.

Even Shawns 12k was much much dimmer, and it was newer relative to your RS1 (which had more hours on it.)

Let not rehash all the other old stuff, so Ill leave it at that.

Shawn, have you seen Transformers (digital) or a recent new non-animated/CGI release? I looked closely for grain, and what I saw seems identical to me, as what I see in Batman Begins the early prison cell scene, which is one of the most noticeable examples of it for me.

I did find that lowering brightness (1 or 2 clicks) on the RS1 does away with a lot of the noise/grain, whatever that could mean for it.

Shawn

How did the Lumens output vary between the two PJ's your compared ? The reason I ask is that if I add an ND filter to my JVC the "noise" that is present in some source appears reduced.

I also find with the "sharpness" setting at -12 source noise ie reduced (with no ND filter) without loss of overall image "sharpness". Is the sharpness control what Gennum call detail enhancement setting ? Did you vary these setting in your comparison ?

Dazzer


Good to know. 8)

Hi Tom,
Before anyone jumps on the extended primary issue, the colors are being corrected with an external processor with 3D LUT.
And that external processor would be??
mark


Off the shelf systems would be something like Cinespace. Which is pretty good.

A profiling calibration system like Spyder2pro would get you close enough for something like a rec 709 colourspace. You only really need 3dluts for critical high end film colour correction. In practice the difference a 3dlut makes is with regard to things like saturation and gamut varying with intensity: eg film starts to desaturate and drop colours out the darker it gets in very specific ways because of how the film itself is constructed.3dluts take account for this.

Your not going to be doing the sort of colour correction on a home cinema system that warrants 3d luts to be honest.

An interesting and worthwhile idea to look at what people consider as "noise" in current display systems...and by systems I mean the whole chain from the source to the display.

As a baseline, I would recommend that anyone who has PC that will output 1920x1080 via DVI or HDMI connect their PC to the RS1 and view some still images in full-res. You will see there is NO noise...zero, nada, none.
Cheers,
I agree with the analysis but the goal was to see if there is anyone who has not achieved this practical perfection (as optimized system setup can be challenging). Then we could help out those who may not.
All you guys gave such an overwhelming positive response which no doubt scared off anyone who is having issues in the playback chain. I guess we will never know?
I was going to review the Disney import Porco Rosso SD disc (aka All Middle Aged Men Are Pigs) which is noisy, but its in the source.

Its interesting that not a single member has ever (?) discussed the virtually perfect S/N of the JVC Reference Standard. To much emphasis in another area?
Oh well the suspense and drama came to an end prematurely. Some guys are like that I guess! :)

Who remembers the first Disney releases on VHS tape? Disney purposely added noise to destroy the quality of their product (studio paranoia). Now 25 years later Disney has transformed itself into releasing the best high definition discs available. One reason is that Disney keeps the audio at 24 bits while name-that-brand truncates to 16.

That being said, lets move on to the next phase: Has anyone else observed anything out of the ordinary with the Disney Blu-ray Bridge to Terabithia?

I've hooked up my PC to it at 1920x1080, and saw no noise at all

I have noticed noise on DVDs that I never noticed before... looks like little dark blue moving dots within dark areas in a dark scene. I will say that since the contrast ratio is that much better, it's easy to see how those dark blue dots would have just been washed out in a lesser display.

I have also noticed film grain which stands out more on some high def movies. I saw Spider-Man 3 in IMAX and recalled a lot of film grain when watching it. I noticed similar film grain when watching the Spider-Man 3 trailer that I downloaded from the playstation network.

The best test would be to compare it to other 1080p projectors with high contrast ratios. Project Reviews is supposed to be doing a RS1 vs Sharp 20K sometime soon (under the 20k review, he mentioned mid july).

I've hooked up my PC to it at 1920x1080, and saw no noise at all

I have noticed noise on DVDs that I never noticed before... looks like little dark blue moving dots within dark areas in a dark scene. I will say that since the contrast ratio is that much better, it's easy to see how those dark blue dots would have just been washed out in a lesser display.

I have also noticed film grain which stands out more on some high def movies. I saw Spider-Man 3 in IMAX and recalled a lot of film grain when watching it. I noticed similar film grain when watching the Spider-Man 3 trailer that I downloaded from the playstation network.

The best test would be to compare it to other 1080p projectors with high contrast ratios. Project Reviews is supposed to be doing a RS1 vs Sharp 20K sometime soon (under the 20k review, he mentioned mid july).

I'm not sure if anyone has figured out how the variable "Sharpness" and "DNR" options work on the JVC. IIRC the Gennum is capable of doing some clever stuff around "detail enhacement" and "noise filtering".

I'm sure many of us avoid these settings based on past experience of other products. However, I think with the JVC these setting can be used to great effect with SD source material to reduce "noise" in the source to a level that fits personal taste without degrading the overall image.

Dazzer

I'm not sure if anyone has figured out how the variable "Sharpness" and "DNR" options work on the JVC. IIRC the Gennum is capable of doing some clever stuff around "detail enhacement" and "noise filtering".

I'm sure many of us avoid these settings based on past experience of other products. However, I think with the JVC these setting can be used to great effect with SD source material to reduce "noise" in the source to a level that fits personal taste without degrading the overall image.

Dazzer

I've only played with them briefly. With SD (which is about the only time you'll use them) I found the noise reduction softened an already soft picture too much and the sharpening exacerbated aliasing and noise without really making the picture any better. I prefer to do any sharpening on my HTPC but even then I'm begining to prefer the slightly softer upscaled picture from my HDA1 with SD.

Has anyone else observed anything out of the ordinary with the Disney Blu-ray Bridge to Terabithia?
One major advantage front projectors share over rear projectors is that the screen is generally much less intrusive. A rear projector cannot match a front projector in terms of transparency. That see through the window illusion.
To discover any projector, pixel or screen limitations its best to look for scenes with lots of white as if in a sheet of notebook paper.
Don't let the beauty distract you! :)

A problem I have with people putting on virtually perfect program material to discern whether the display is noisy is this: it doesn't tell the whole story.

It is one way to make sure the display isn't adding noise all the time no matter what you feed it. If you give it a pristine source and it looks pristine, that's obviously good. But having evaluated more digital displays than is good for my health, I found the issue is how the processing of a display deals with trickier image noise within the source. THAT's what usually separates the men from the boys. That was the problem with so many plasmas and other digital displays.
Put on Toy Story 2 and they all look great, which is one reason why computer animation (and now HD signals) tended to be used on all the displays. A pristine source like that is easier to render.

But start putting on a variety of materials, film based and otherwise, and then you start to see that the processing of some displays is better than others. Put on a film with some grain on a
display with good processing and you can still see the grain but the image still looks excellent.
Put the same film on another display with poorer processing and....YUCK. The crappier processing doesn't seem to deal with the noise/grain inherent in the source and the processing exacerbates those issues, making it look worse than it should (and worse than the display with the better processing).

So this is my problem with people saying "I put on a perfect source and it looked great, so the display must not be to blame when we see noise." The major issue I've always had is how well does the processing handle noise in the image. And lots of film has noise, especially in the form of "grain."

So I don't care if pristine sources look pristine. I can get that from most displays. Rather, I'd like to know if the processing of the JVC exacerbates noise present in the image. And I don't see that question answered as of yet. (And I'm a bit suspicious due to the number of complaints about how "revealing" that display is of noise. But, as I've mentioned before, when I viewed the
RS1 I didn't notice objectionable levels of noise, although I haven't lived with one).

Rich,

Well said. I don't think anyone is saying the RS1 adds noise to a source when there is none in the source. That was why we got together in the first place... to see if the noise was visible on all the projectors. It was. The difference is it was more readily apparent on the RS1.

The RS1 is either just very revealing of noise or maybe the noise is tripping it up somewhere and that in turn is causing additional artifacts. I mentioned it in an earlier post but it is possible to trip up the RS1 (and probably everything else out there too) depending upon what you feed it. The grey scale ramp hidden on some BluRay discs will trip it up for example.

If the RS1 is being tripped up by the noise the 'pause' test is a useless test for this as would be perfectly clean sources.

Shawn

I had yet to experience noise or other weirdness on my RS-1 to any noticeable degree until last night. We watched "Flight of the Phoenix" in Blu-ray from our Sammy BD-P1200 and had 2 issues: 1) at 1080P/24, the audio was not synchronized. I switched off 24 fps and it disappeared, and 2) during dark scenes - when one of the passengers goes out at night to "relieve himself" and ends up getting lost - there was so much noise in the picture that even my wife noticed it. Did anyone else notice issues with that transfer?

Craig,

The grain seems to be most nitceable to me in dark scenes with a small amount of very bright images. Its noticeable to me in Batman Begins (early prison cell scene), Eragon, even the Harry Potter 5 trailer downloaded from marketplace.

When watching Transformers at the theaters, I was intentionally looking for grain and found what appeared to be the same amounts of grain in several scenes in that movie, one scene specificlly when in Air Force One.

We have Terabithia, and ill have to get Flight of the Phoenix, to see if I can see what you guys are seeing and how it compares with to what I am seeing with my HD1 and what I saw at the theaters.

I feed my RS1 1080p from my Anthem, so I dont believe its processing much, if any, even when I stretch it.

The issues with your BD player? Were they repeatable, as far as the sync issues? Did they happen again after a power down/up?

Craig,

The grain seems to be most nitceable to me in dark scenes with a small amount of very bright images.

If we're talking grain in those situations, that would seem to make some sense in terms of the RS1 revealing grain. Given the RS1 has particular advantages over most projectors in producing exceptional contrast in dark scenes with a few light sources (as Greg Rogers points out), one might expect the xtra contrast and detail in those dark scenes to also reveal a bit more of the source grain than other projectors might reveal.

Its noticeable to me in Batman Begins (early prison cell scene), EragonI own Batman Begins and didn't notice it the first time around. That said, it was in HD-DVD from the Xbox so it was a different source. I'll take another look. Even without looking though I know the FOTP scene had to be much, much worse for my wife to comment.
I feed my RS1 1080p from my Anthem, so I dont believe its processing much, if any, even when I stretch it. The issues with your BD player? Were they repeatable, as far as the sync issues? Did they happen again after a power down/up?We were just anxious to watch the movies, so I didn't do any playing around. I will mess around with it and let you know. My guess is that its an issue with the source, but not sure.

Playback of The Bridge to Terabithia at 24p with 1:1 pixel mapping playback does show some noise/artifacts/ anti-aliasing in the disc-menu-title-loop on my system. (Please do not jump to the conclusion that it is from the JVC).

It is similar (but actually better) to the HD-DVD/Blu-ray Silicon Optix test discs (recorded in 1080i) which have a scene of slowly moving in-focus flower but an out-of-focus background. But these interlaced discs actually hinder us from determining if the RS1 generates noise with moving objects.

Liquid crystal displays do exhibit transient noise when they switch. Computer monitors can look horrendously noisy when playing back video. I remember HD Gruru guy publishing a caption in Home Theater magazine and promising to follow up. But I never saw anything else. Also Toms Hardware also spoke of self generated LCD noise too about two years ago. Some LCD manufactures “overdrive/distort” the liquid crystal. This can cause overshoot. The real liquid crystal pixel response time can be close or greater than the 16.67 msec frame rate. So what happens if there is noise (which fluctuates greatly each frame) and the pixel is always trying to “catch-up”?

Noise in the source is difficult to compress too without losing detail. Processing it is a nightmare.

An important difference as of today is that the PS3 cannot deinterlace 1080i signals. The Silicon Optix Blu-ray disc forces the PS3 to only display 540 horizontal lines (just like in them good old days).

So one of the best source to try to isolate any projector noise is to use a slow motion scene recorded at 24 or 30p with near white content as this is the easiest to see any flaws. The Bridge to Terabithia fits that description.

Notice that Mr. Sites tried to short-circuit this investigation by falsely concluding that if there is no noise in a static scene then there must not be any noise added in a moving scene.

Kinda like audio testing with a single static sine wave with no transient waveforms. As we all know by know this information tells you hardly anything.

Notice that Mr. Sites tried to short-circuit this investigation by falsely concluding that if there is no noise in a static scene then there must not be any noise added in a moving scene.


I dont think he was trying to short-circuit the investigation, probably just answering it simply.

Damn, Craig.

That is one super-fine media room/game room you got going there! Great job, brother. I saw you almost piecing it all together but DAMN didnt follow it to conclusion til just now. 8>

Reminds me of that commercial from the 80s with different guys spotting a Nissan 280ZX, then later 300ZX, and making circles around them and thinking to themselves "Some day." 8)

I dont think he was trying to short-circuit the investigation, probably just answering it simply.
I generally agree but it good to let everyone voice their observations. Tom is a great source of knowledge and shares our passion in achieving the best PQ. He is probably the best manufactures representative here at AVS. But he is not an impartial JVC consumer.
Its fun pulling back the layers (of the onion) that were previously masked by lessor projectors. To boldly go where no man has gone before. And seeing what is left to be improved upon. Technology will not stop just because someone is satisfied.

My observations indicate that the Toshiba Xa2 Reon is a bit less sharp than the PS3. The PS3 also has the "tangier" and more saturated colors. What colorspace does the Toshiba output? The PS3 is selectable. Nice!

Maybe I'm seeing the HP screen particles when displaying the menu artwork of The Bridge to Terabithia? Or is it the pixels? AVC encoder byproducts? Most 1080p projectors still "flash" the highest frequencies especially in motion-deinterlaced or not. It will take some time to understand the cause and effect.
The RS1 displays at 96 or 120 Hz, but does it interpolate the pixels to that rate?

Ok,
Since I did not have to go to work today I had a rested set of eyes to examine the issues documented above.

I can see the screen door effect with white slow moving images. But this is a minor issue that has been greatly reduced, especially compared to 1280 projectors. Actually this also demonstrates the resolving power of the RS1.
A great projector.

However there was some other fixed pattern noise that I was seeing as the notebook paper moved across the screen in The Bridge to Terabithia menu. But the fact is these sheets of paper were not encoded as single shade of white either. So I need a “purer” test case. It just so happens my laboratory (basement) is equipped with an expensive and exclusive HD test signal generator (a PC) connected to HDMI input-2. The Logitech diNovo Edge bluetooth wireless keyboard allowed me to observe at any distance.

The test procedure was to simply drag a pure white Windows file explorer window around the screen. Bingo! The answer is easily observed: the individual LCOS pixels show a variation in brightness. This results in a fixed panel noise which can at times be noticed, especially with motion.

There is no doubt in my mind that those who tried to short circuit this investigation already knew of this limitation. Contrast this with the fact that not one professional reviewer observed it either. Rather a disgusting situation wouldn’t you say?

In conclusion both Liquid Crystal and DLP technologies are challenged even with the present 8 bits of depth. No need for the increased bit depth of HDMI spec 1.3 as it would largely be wasted. That is, not until each pixel can generate the same amount of light (to within the LSB quantization error), given the same input.

Well I’m going to go out and enjoy the beautifully clear, clean, cool pure air and sunshine in spite of everything else! :)

Stop worrying so much about white sheets of paper and motion artifacts and enjoy the beautiful images of your new projector, my friend. 8)

Stop worrying so much about white sheets of paper and motion artifacts and enjoy the beautiful images of your new projector, my friend. 8)
Its ironic that the effect is typically not noticeable for still frame/constant background used frequently animation films. But when observing a very pure (high S/N which is the norm for today) animation it adds a texture (psuesdo-random noise) most easily discernible in large brighter motion areas of constant value. This type of amplitude distortion is much less observable in non-animation films.
Perhaps your view has merit, as learning to observe it is a distraction from the vast enjoyment this projector is capable of providing.

Damn, Craig.

That is one super-fine media room/game room you got going there! Great job, brother. I saw you almost piecing it all together but DAMN didnt follow it to conclusion til just now. 8>

Reminds me of that commercial from the 80s with different guys spotting a Nissan 280ZX, then later 300ZX, and making circles around them and thinking to themselves "Some day." 8)LOL. Thanks Bro!

LOL. Thanks Bro!

8)

I could generate a 1080p sequence of say a gray chequerboard with "proper" (albeit digitally applied) film grain. I could do a static one and pan one around: again with filmgrain over it and reasonably accurate filmic motionblur. And of course I could do a completely clean one for comparison..

Bit busy for the next couple of weeks and I may need some suggestions as to getting it into a easy to upload format. ( can do photojpeg quicktime easily but I might have to investigate a better codec)

Its ironic that the effect is typically not noticeable for still frame/constant background used frequently animation films. But when observing a very pure (high S/N which is the norm for today) animation it adds a texture (psuesdo-random noise) most easily discernible in large brighter motion areas of constant value. This type of amplitude distortion is much less observable in non-animation films.
Perhaps your view has merit, as learning to observe it is a distraction from the vast enjoyment this projector is capable of providing.

I'm not sure you can differentiate generated noise from compression artifacts in this case. Movement especially might well snap in artifacts compared with comparatively still limagery.

I'm not sure you can differentiate generated noise from compression artifacts in this case. Movement especially might well snap in artifacts compared with comparatively still imagery.
I know that this kind of stuff can be hard to visualize especially since it is a new type of of distortion. Here though the pixel differential brightness offsets stay at exactly the same physical location on the screen. One can see it sometimes as the motion moves "though it". It is easy to confuse it being in the source but it most definitely is not (another problem may lie elsewhere in the playback chain).

What is the solution? Well its actually been documented by the distinguished expert of LCoS technology:
http://www.displaymate.com/LCoS_ShootOut_Part_A.htm
http://www.displaymate.com/LCoS_ShootOut_Part_B.htm
http://www.displaymate.com/LCoS_ShootOut_Part_C.htm
http://www.displaymate.com/LCoS_ShootOut_Part_D.htm

Craig,

The grain seems to be most noticeable to me in dark scenes with a small amount of very bright images. Its noticeable to me in Batman Begins (early prison cell scene), Eragon, even the Harry Potter 5 trailer downloaded from marketplace.


Catdaddy67,
Are we seeing the same effect? Compressed sources make it harder to analyze and prove because all lossy compression results in errors which can easily be of similar magnitude.

I purchased a 52" Sharp LCD flat panel which had horizontal "tread" patterns across the screen. Each was about 0.5 inches tall. Many other saw it. Ultimate AV and even Consumer Reports. It was easily observable with viewing a skier going down a slop.

But the problem is more difficult to observe in the RS1 as snow can sparkle for each pixel! The brightness distortion is also at the pixel level. Its like this:

Conceptualize a bright grey box whose RGB pixel value value is specified exactly at (220,220,220). For perfect display all pixels would be at the same brightness.

Take this same perfect display randomize every pixel from (215,215,215) through (220,220,220). This is the pixel variation of random brightness. The offset between pixels is constant but it does add fixed pattern "noise" as motion transverses it. Most of the time it is masked but its child play to see it in uniform test patterns. Picture noise can exasperate it by manifesting itself as beat frequencies and aliasing which is common to all fixed panel devices.

Probably not the same effect, reincarnate, as the grain is noticeable in stills. You say yours is not noticeable in stills, right, but rather in movement?

Probably not the same effect, reincarnate, as the grain is noticeable in stills. You say yours is not noticeable in stills, right, but rather in movement?
Normal stills are seldom of the EXACT same intensity. Just put up a box of one color. Bright is better but stay below above 200 and below 240. Now walk slowly up to the screen and vary your distance. Don't go too far back so that you cannot see the individual pixels. The variation in brightness between adjacent pixels should be obvious.

I sure wish Tom was here when I need him! They variation in brightness is quit common in all LCD/LCoS displays but it most easily seen when magnified greatly (read front projectors). Rear projectors screens mask it.

These must be the reason why LCD computer monitor displays look great for static photographs, but look like hell when displaying motion/video. :)

They say timing is everything in life. I want you all to know that I started this thread because I had foreknowledge that Sony was going to update the PS3 with firmware version 1.90.

What am I talking about? In a word: transparency of our video projection system

The new subject test is not just limited to the RS1. So why waste my time with RS1 owners who are insanely preoccupied with beating the color issue to death?

They say timing is everything in life. I want you all to know that I started this thread because I had foreknowledge that Sony was going to update the PS3 with firmware version 1.90.

What am I talking about? In a word: transparency of our video projection system

The new subject test is not just limited to the RS1. So why waste my time with RS1 owners who are insanely preoccupied with beating the color issue to death?

I'm not sure I know what you mean. What did the PS3 1.9 update provide that started this whole thread. "Transparency of our video projection system?" Please explain more.

...

So I'm curious... Has anyone compared a movie where the RS1 shows "noise" where another 1080p projector (Sharp 20k would be best comparison). Is this a real issue or is it just a matter of seeing noise that couldn't be seen on a projector with lower contrast ratio?

I'm not sure I know what you mean. What did the PS3 1.9 update provide that started this whole thread. "Transparency of our video projection system?" Please explain more.

...

So I'm curious... Has anyone compared a movie where the RS1 shows "noise" where another 1080p projector (Sharp 20k would be best comparison). Is this a real issue or is it just a matter of seeing noise that couldn't be seen on a projector with lower contrast ratio?
Simply play a CD with the 1.90 version PS3 visualization enabled and see if you can observe anything that stays in the same spot on the screen while there is the is the Psychedelic and out-of-focus motion. Near white colors are the easiest to spot and fixed pattern distortion. All projector systems have this limitation to varying degrees.

These type of images look just terrible on a rear projector such as my new Samsung 61". DLP's may not have much fixed pattern noise but the rear projection screen sure does!

To be perfectly honest I can even look at the white area of LCD computer flat panels (for me a 1600*1200 Samsung) and now see a light peppering in the white areas. The fact is individual LCD/LCoS/SXRD pixels vary in brightness.
Note: This is only one type of panel defect or error.

It's illuminating to observe that DLP have the moist noise in the dark areas and LCD can have the most in the brightest areas. Most guys here claim to have eagle eyes yet apparently can't see this pixel level constant "noise". :)

Also see the following on thread (because the effect its not limited to the RS1):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=881180

Rating the Transparency of Our Video Projection Systems
They say timing is everything in life. I started this (and the previous RS1 Owners: Categorizing Picture Noise) thread because I had foreknowledge that Sony was going to update the PS3 to firmware version 1.90. (this was a joke)

Transparency is a well known adjective in high-end audio. It’s a rather new adjective in describing high-end video because frankly video sources and systems have been of inferior quality. But this has all changed with the latest 1080p 24Hz high-definition projectors and discs with 1:1 pixel mapping, no scaling and no deinterlacing.

Its well known that Sony Blu-ray discs have test patterns for observing static images (press 7669 enter from the remote). Now Sony includes a superb test for subjectively analyzing in-motion transparency using PS3 Computer Image Generation clips.

To start the test insert a Cd like Dark Side of the Moon into the 1.90 PS3 and select visuals from the control panel. Simply observe and describe the level of noise, artifacts or anything else which "gets in the way" of the images.

Note to 60's hippies with flip-flops: Do not be tempted to take any illegal substances here as you will find they are no longer necessary.

Thanks!

Here is how Joe Kane describes the ever popular StudioTek 130 in reducing the transparency of a 1920 HD image:

What I didn't discover
until a short while ago was that a small StudioTek 130 screen, say 6-
feet wide, would have a grain structure close to the size of the pixels
in a 1080p image. There is a slight interference between the pixel size
and the granularity, which, at a proper viewing distance, would slightly
soften the picture. A finer grain structure would be helpful for 1080p
pictures and necessary as we move to higher resolution projectors.

Now consider many professional reviewers use this very screen. What was unimportant before is now very important.

:)

I just watched my new copy of 300 on BD last night. I distinctly remember being very impressed with the PQ in the theater - the movie has an obviously stylized look, but that aside the picture was quite clean.

What I saw on my RS1 was what I perceived to be an overly grainy picture. It seemed that every scene had the appearance of grain, some to the point where it looked more like excessive noise than actual film grain. I certainly don't remember the film version being anywhere near this grainy - anyone else have similar experiences with this particular movie? I'm running an HD-A2 (1080i60) and PS3 (1080p60) -> VP50 (1080p24) -> Denon AVR 3806 -> RS1 all via HDMI, with a Carada BW 136" 2.35:1 screen and UH380.

Personally I find the grain/noise issues on the RS1 to be far more distracting than I do the color issue, even though it seems the primary complaint here revolves around the RS1's slightly over saturated colors. I'm probably just getting more sensitive to it as I view more material, but it seems that the grain issues just keep getting worse over time.

300 is riddled with grain and noise. Personally I think the film generally looks awful . Mismatched grain across different areas of the image , crushed clipped noisy edges and colours.

The HD-DVD is a good mastering but the film is a noise festival . Not good material to judge noise issues.

Grain or noise? Which one does 300 display?

My questions for those who say that the RS1 introduces noise:
1) Why does it not introduce noise into some movies but does into others. Why is there no noise when playing a game via my PC or PS3?
2) I just watched Bullets over Broadway. It was a non anamorphic dvd, and it had a good amount of dark scenes. While the DVD generally did not look very good, it did not display any noise in dark areas. Sopranos Season 1, on the other hand, displays a lot of noise in dark areas and it's almost equally as bad a transfer. Is it the source, or is it the projector?
3) Why no noise when showing a still images on a PC? It would have to be a processing flaw, but why on some movies but not others?

Look at this image from ProjectorReviews.com:

http://www.projectorreviews.com/Images-projectors-Q1-07/JVC_RS-1_vs_VW50_SpaceCowboys_satelliteOverLarge.jpg

If you are on an LCD monitor, and not looking at the correct angle, you may not be able to tell the difference between the two images. Try tilting your monitor or changing your viewing angle on the vertical axis, and you'll see what i mean (note if your contrast ratio is above 1000:1, it may be harder to NOT see, even when tilting). If we are talking about noise in dark areas, the same applies. When your contrast ratio is low, you won't be able to see the compression noise (dark blue dots) in there because your display is not revealing enough...

Are we seeing noise in other kinds of scenes or is this only in dark areas? I'd still like for someone to view side-by-side with the Sharp 20K. I may be wrong and it may come from bad processing...

"My questions for those who say that the RS1 introduces noise:"

I do not think anyone says it just randomly adds noise.

What some wonder is why is noise/grain in the source so much more obvious on the JVC. Is it either just more revealing or does maybe the presence of noise cause some sort of problem from the RS1 which introduces other artifacts. As I have said before it is possible to feed the RS1 things with visual artifacts added by the JVC. The gray scale ramp hidden on the 'Casino Royal' BR disc is a good example of this. Play that into the RS1 and I get faint sort of magenta vertical lines added to the picture at various places on the screen.

"1) Why does it not introduce noise into some movies but does into others. Why is there no noise when playing a game via my PC or PS3?"

See above.

"3) Why no noise when showing a still images on a PC? It would have to be a processing flaw, but why on some movies but not others?"

Again.. see above. If noise is tripping something up in the RS1 then a still image is a useless test for this.

"Are we seeing noise in other kinds of scenes or is this only in dark areas?"

When we got together to look at this it was noise in brighter areas, not darker areas that we were looking at.

Shawn

There is the sample and hold effect.

However I tend to think the RS1 is just very transparent. Its also extremely good at showing up aliasing.

I was thinking of the "noise" in the dark scenes. On some sources, you can see a random flurry of blue dots within the dark/black areas of a scene. My guess is that it's compression artifacts. It shows up in some films, but not in others. I've never seen this before the RS1, and figured it had to do with contrast. Am I right?

As far as bright scenes, what I have noticed is that when there is a grainy picture, it looks even more grainy with the RS1. Going from Fifth Element super-bit to Blu-ray really shows this ... in one of the earlier scenes , you see a blue sky with a kid yelling (aziz light?) Then the scene moves inside to some ancient stone drawing. Is the grainy blue-sky an example of what you are referring to? I also noticed that Breach was very grainy as well. Are we talking about film grain or noise. Is this considered film grain?


"My questions for those who say that the RS1 introduces noise:"

I do not think anyone says it just randomly adds noise.

What some wonder is why is noise/grain in the source so much more obvious on the JVC. Is it either just more revealing or does maybe the presence of noise cause some sort of problem from the RS1 which introduces other artifacts. As I have said before it is possible to feed the RS1 things with visual artifacts added by the JVC. The gray scale ramp hidden on the 'Casino Royal' BR disc is a good example of this. Play that into the RS1 and I get faint sort of magenta vertical lines added to the picture at various places on the screen.

"1) Why does it not introduce noise into some movies but does into others. Why is there no noise when playing a game via my PC or PS3?"

See above.

"3) Why no noise when showing a still images on a PC? It would have to be a processing flaw, but why on some movies but not others?"

Again.. see above. If noise is tripping something up in the RS1 then a still image is a useless test for this.

"Are we seeing noise in other kinds of scenes or is this only in dark areas?"

When we got together to look at this it was noise in brighter areas, not darker areas that we were looking at.

Shawn

300 is riddled with grain and noise. Personally I think the film generally looks awful . Mismatched grain across different areas of the image , crushed clipped noisy edges and colours.

The HD-DVD is a good mastering but the film is a noise festival . Not good material to judge noise issues.

When I saw the film at one of the local cinemas, I did not think it looked horrible. When I saw it on my RS1, I thought it was definitely a step down from what I had seen previously.

I think someone may have hit it on the head earlier with regards to the RS1's rendering of pristine vs. noisy (whether grainy or digital noise) sources. Feed anything a good looking source, and it will look good. Feed something a noisy source, and that's when the processing and display technology can really shine. Sure, you can't "improve" a bad source, but you certainly can make it look even worse. Whether it's the new panel technology on the RS1 or something about how it processes the image, I think that it's not handling dirty sources as it should be and it is only making them look worse. I do not think it is simply because the RS1 is overly revealing.

When I saw the film at one of the local cinemas, I did not think it looked horrible. When I saw it on my RS1, I thought it was definitely a step down from what I had seen previously.

I do not think it is simply because the RS1 is overly revealing.

The mismatched grain application on 300 stands out a mile away. Whilst I can understand the director going for a grainy look ( I love Miami Vice for example) to have different levels of grain on different areas of image within the same frame is pretty sloppy. Noise is also being kicked up by the extreme grades and crushing going on

Whilst I can believe the sample and hold effect produces a certain type of artifact under certain circumstances the noise on 300 is almost entirely the source at work. I do not think the RS1 exacerbates grain and noise to any significant level. Any time I've suspected this I've invariably found noise and aliasing to be faithful to the source.

The mismatched grain application on 300 stands out a mile away. Whilst I can understand the director going for a grainy look ( I love Miami Vice for example) to have different levels of grain on different areas of image within the same frame is pretty sloppy. Noise is also being kicked up by the extreme grades and crushing going on

Whilst I can believe the sample and hold effect produces a certain type of artifact under certain circumstances the noise on 300 is almost entirely the source at work. I do not think the RS1 exacerbates grain and noise to any significant level. Any time I've suspected this I've invariably found noise and aliasing to be faithful to the source.

I had some time to sit down today and address some other issues, namely horribly crushed blacks which were causing a huge loss of detail. I'm not sure why this was an issue when it wasn't before, but I went through, updated the firmware on the PS3, made sure the pipeline is PC RGB levels the whole way through the pipeline, and then re-set the brightness and contrast using test patterns from the VP50 - the numbers were significantly different than I had previously set, yielding a MUCH better picture. I was much happier with what I saw on 300, but the grain/noise was still a little more than I'd like, and this went for movies other than 300 as well - Bond, King Kong, Chronicles of Riddick to name a few. I'll do some more viewing and see what I think.

Obviously my comments here are purely subjective, and I'll readily admit that the RS1's picture will look beautiful to me one night, and another night I'll be picking it apart in my head the whole movie. Maybe I should learn to use my calibration equipment (SpyderPro) and software (HCFR) so I can get a more objective look at things :)

I was much happier with what I saw on 300, but the grain/noise was still a little more than I'd like, and this went for movies other than 300 as well - Bond, King Kong, Chronicles of Riddick to name a few. I'll do some more viewing and see what I think.



King Kong and Riddick off hd-dvd looked to have perfectly reasonable film grain going on to me.

There is not much you can do with the spyder regarding calibrating the RS1 . The best you can hope for is an improvement to the grayscale : although its pretty good out the box anyway.

I'd strongly suggest you verify whether or not your PC levels remap is losing you anything outside 16-235 with suitable test patterns ( DVE , Get Gray)

Take 2 projectors

Any decent projector will do the job! :D

In my case a Sony VW50 stacked on top (or is it under?) of the JVC clearly single out the JVC "noisy" image.

regards,

Li On

..or the "softer", less detailed, Sony image! :D

Seriously, I have seen stacked the JVC against the Pearl and (another time) against the Sharp 21K and the JVC had NOT more noise than any of those projectors. In fact it was revealing about the same detail as the Sharp (along with the film grain etc) and more than the Pearl..
All these tests of course at calibrated conditions, in a bat cave, with the same source (HTPC) via a geffen HDMI splitter...

In my case a Sony VW50 stacked on top (or is it under?) of the JVC clearly single out the JVC "noisy" image.
Yes, even though I do not believe that the JVC is creating noise, it certainly does bring it out more than any other projector I have ever owned including a 9" CRT, Sony Ruby, and Sharp Z12K Mk. II. The best theory I have read for the cause of this problem is (from a well known calibrator who wishes to remain anonymous):
I noticed some bad noise on the RS-1 as well. I suspect it is a lack of bit depth with the digital panel drivers versus the analog in the Sony. I could not handle the noise or the color problems of the RS-1.
and the worst theory I have heard is "the noise/grain is due to the fact that the RS-1 is so incredibly revealing!" :rolleyes:

The exacerbation of noise/grain from the RS-1 is the second worst problem (in my eyes), the worst problem being the lack of color accuracy, and the third worst problem being shading issues. I would also like to see much better ANSI contrast, but fixing the obvious problems should take precedence.

And then this weekend I ran into a weird problem - My RS-1 lamp began flickering in eco mode, so I decided to switch it to high lamp to see if the flicker would go away (I read of people having similar experiences who solved the problem that way). Just as I hit "enter" to initiate high lamp mode, the projector completely shut down as if the power had been cut off - no response of any kind - for about 15 minutes. I was finally able to restart it and it was locked into high lamp mode (the option to change it was grayed out)...what's up with that?

I'm wondering if the "noise" problem could be bypassed for a smoother image when using an external VP with the RS1. (?)

I'm wondering if the "noise" problem could be bypassed for a smoother image when using an external VP with the RS1. (?)
I'm using an external VP. I can reduce the noise/grain by using the Crystalio 2's noise reduction circuitry, but it is at the expense of detail. If used on a low setting, the tradeoff is very worthwhile, or at least to me.

Just as I hit "enter" to initiate high lamp mode, the projector completely shut down as if the power had been cut off - no response of any kind - for about 15 minutes. I was finally able to restart it and it was locked into high lamp mode (the option to change it was grayed out)...what's up with that?

As for the shutdown, I have no clue, but I remember, that the JVC grey out of the lamp mode button is only temporary. After a couple of minutes, you can change lamp mode again. Seems to be a safety measure.

and the worst theory I have heard is "the noise/grain is due to the fact that the RS-1 is so incredibly revealing!" :rolleyes:



Seems perfectly reasonable to me . I still haven't managed to trigger noise exacerbation through feeding it differing patterns. Its also the closest I've seen a domestic display get to transparency with an 8bit video range.

Just as I hit "enter" to initiate high lamp mode, the projector completely shut down as if the power had been cut off - no response of any kind

Thats cause it doesnt like you. If you would be nice to it(instead of talking behind its back all the time), it would behave better.

Thats cause it doesnt like you. If you would be nice to it(instead of talking behind its back all the time), it would behave better.
Well this kind of behavior isn't making me like it any better, that's for sure!

The Nvidia graphics card 8600GT has edge enhancement & noise reduction. Anyone that is using a HTPC can try it out. I rarely use either of those but I find it works really well on this card. Just get the right combination and no detail is lost but almost all the noise is gone.

Regarding whether or not the RS1 adds noise, it appears everyone has a different take on that. For me I don't see any more than any other good PJ. But all this is just my opinion. However, no doubt I'm getting a better looking picture on blu-ray an HD-dvd using noise reduction and edge enhancement with the 8600GT.

And then this weekend I ran into a weird problem - My RS-1 lamp began flickering in eco mode, so I decided to switch it to high lamp to see if the flicker would go away (I read of people having similar experiences who solved the problem that way). Just as I hit "enter" to initiate high lamp mode, the projector completely shut down as if the power had been cut off - no response of any kind - for about 15 minutes. I was finally able to restart it and it was locked into high lamp mode (the option to change it was grayed out)...what's up with that?

This *exact* sequence of events just happened to me tonight for the exact same cause (switching to high lamp due to flickering). Projector came back after 5-10 minutes - talk about freaking out!

I would like someone from JVC to comment on the flickering bulbs in eco mode. Is it just a bad run of bulbs from these early projectors or does the eco mode drop the voltage just a little too much causing issues as the bulb ages? I've noticed the flickering getting worse, particularly after the projector has been on for a while.

Andy K.

After having an RS1 for the past 6 or 7 weeks I'm generally very impressed with it. Only some minor complaints in areas that have already been beaten to death on the forum.

I have my own theory on the image noise/grain issue. For starters the HD version of 300 isn't a good gauge for this. It's riddled with film grain that I didn't notice to that extent at the theater (IMAX)either. Ive tried this movie (HDDVD) on 3 different projectors, RS1, HD1000(dlp) and a friend's Z5 and the grain/noise was there on all of them. It was however more pronounced on the RS1 and on the HD1000 than it was on the Z5.

IMHO the RS1 doesn't really introduce noise or grain on it's own, but it does emphasize it because it's a relatively bright projector(again IMHO). So is the HD1000 which would concur with the brightness theory.

To make matters worse add a HP into the equation and it becomes a bright grain/noise fest. I'm thinking many here paired their RS1's to a HP and that might be part of the problem. I have a 110" diag Mod C that I picked up relatively cheap a few months ago to try out based on all the euphoria here. At the risk of ruffling fan club feathers, I really don't understand the all hype behind the HP. I can see it's limited use in cases where a very large screen is needed for a less than bright projector. But in most cases using it with a projector with ample lumens like the RS1 is just going to visually amplify and aggravate any noise that normaly would be barely perceptible. The overblown whites and the grey blacks are hardly what I would call pleasing. Sure it's super bright in the right setup, but so is my 50" plasma if I ramp up the contrast to 100. I wouldn't want to watch anything on it at that setting tho. To each their own I suppose.

Joe

Noise can be injected into a system in hundreds of different ways. One insidious culprit is the cheap wall wart power supplies. Most visibly and audibly degrade the picture and sound quality.
I’ve conducted a survey of wall warts and can recommend this one as the best:
http://www.zzounds.com/item--HOSADC477

I worked wonders for my HDMI switchers in two separate systems. Wal-Mart has one which looks quite similar for $16 at 1300ma. But I have not tested it.

Limitations: this switching power supply does not output 5VDC required for my Squeezebox media player. Always exactly match the device voltage required.
Remember many Chi** goods presently have shortcomings. This is an exception.

We must be very careful before assigning blame to our projectors. :)

Update: switcher to switching power supply

Joe,

"I really don't understand the all hype behind the HP."

You aren't using it right. If your picture is that bright with the RS1 and HP (and it would be) you also add a neutral densitity filter to your system to drop the brightness back down. Then as the bulb ages and the picture dims you either move to a lower ND filter or remove the filter all together.

The combo of the three allow you to enjoy a more consistent brightness level over the life of your bulb.

Shawn

Joe,

"I really don't understand the all hype behind the HP."

You aren't using it right. If your picture is that bright with the RS1 and HP (and it would be) you also add a neutral densitity filter to your system to drop the brightness back down. Then as the bulb ages and the picture dims you either move to a lower ND filter or remove the filter all together.

The combo of the three allow you to enjoy a more consistent brightness level over the life of your bulb.

Shawn

But there's no free lunch with adding filters. As I understand it, adding another layer of glass in front of your projector will reduce ANSI contrast to some degree (light scatter etc). A consideration with a projector like the RS1 that doesn't have a ton of ANSI to begin with.