And they often mention or ask about things they have read in the forums. I think well reasoned discussions, not bashing, in these forums are more effective in getting manufacturers to make changes to future products than writing them letters that may never get to anyone with influence. I'm not saying don't write letters, but thoughtfully discussing issues in an appropriate thread is an effective way to communicate with the manufacturers. Just bashing a product however, isn't.

Well...if they haven't heard the voice of this forum then they are not listening. At this point, I think a well coordinated mail-in campaign would be more effective. We could even try to spread to some of brethren forums (AVforums etc.) and ask them to join us. Someone like yourself could make sure the mail hits the mark. Just my 2 cents.

Since I seem to have killed this thread...

No. I haven't found the time sooner to re-did my calculations. I have done it now and came here to post my results (the same), but I see that your previous results were not correct. It's good to know that our results match.:)

The loss of bit-depth in blue and green is still pretty significant.

Yes, I agree with the bit-depth loss.

About the bit-depth loss, tell me what you think about these thoughts...

The greyscale has no bit-depth loss - you can see this in the excel file - and that's where is more resolution at the source (Y channel). The chroma (UV) at the source has a lower resolution, which is upsampled during the conversion to RGB. I know is less resolution and not less bit depth, but since our eyes are less sensitive to color resolution, maybe the slight loss of bit-depth at the color level is also not a big issue. From my tests with real images, I haven't saw any banding...

No. I haven't found the time sooner to re-did my calculations. I have done it now and came here to post my results (the same), but I see that your previous results were not correct. It's good to know that our results match.:)
It's not that my results were incorrect; it is that they did not match what you were trying to do. :) My first set of values keeps luminance constant versus the RS1's native primaries. In many ways, this helps show the magnitude of the color error itself, rather than including a significant luminance component into the equation. In other words, your test pattern essentially highlights the dE issue; mine focuses on dC.

About the bit-depth loss, tell me what you think about these thoughts...

The greyscale has no bit-depth loss - you can see this in the excel file - and that's where is more resolution at the source (Y channel). The chroma (UV) at the source has a lower resolution, which is upsampled during the conversion to RGB. I know is less resolution and not less bit depth, but since our eyes are less sensitive to color resolution, maybe the slight loss of bit-depth at the color level is also not a big issue. From my tests with real images, I haven't saw any banding...
If you had a "white" primary, then your logic begins to make sense. However, in a three primary system where you need each primary to contribute to the overall grayscale, your grayscale resolution (bit-depth is analogous here) is limited by the most constrained component. In this case, you lose about 12% of the bit depth in blue, which translates directly into what you can do with your grayscale and maintain color accuracy.

If you aren't seeing banding, then try things with a lot of deep, rich blues: Blue Planet or some of the IMAX SCUBA films. Also, you will want to test your correction with measurement gear to be sure it is being applied correctly.

Bill

Thanks for the lesson about my logic. It was just some thoughts from a layman in the subject.:) I like this forum a lot, we could always learn something around here...

If you aren't seeing banding, then try things with a lot of deep, rich blues: Blue Planet or some of the IMAX SCUBA films. Also, you will want to test your correction with measurement gear to be sure it is being applied correctly.

Unfortunatelly my projector (JVC M15) gamma curve shows saturation signs at the top, so when I try to measure the correction, it gives me almost the same coordinates... the curve is good only up to 90 IRE.
I will try to test my PC monitor, maybe with it I could see if it's working...

Since I seem to have killed this thread, I re-did my calculations to determine the appropriate correction matrix for RS1 into Rec709, and we match.
Red: (238, 8, 4)
Green: (14, 241, 26)
Blue: (2, 6, 224)

The loss of bit-depth in blue and green is still pretty significant.

This is assuming 8 bits? If so, why are you doing 8 bits? The JVC processes at 10 bit and will accept a 10 bit 4:2:2 signal via it's HDMI 1.2a input according to Rod Sterling, Chief engineer at JVC Digital. Can you do the math at 10 bit instead? I am assuming the loss is insiginificant if at all at 10 bit? Any of the solutions I am considering will be at 10 bit. Lumagen does not yet have 10 bit 4:2:2 in the firmware yet but it is being added to the Radiance.

This is assuming 8 bits? If so, why are you doing 8 bits? The JVC processes at 10 bit and will accept a 10 bit 4:2:2 signal via it's HDMI 1.2a input according to Rod Sterling, Chief engineer at JVC Digital. Can you do the math at 10 bit instead? I am assuming the loss is insiginificant if at all at 10 bit? Any of the solutions I am considering will be at 10 bit. Lumagen does not yet have 10 bit 4:2:2 in the firmware yet but it is being added to the Radiance.
Because that was what yesgrey's test was using (he's trying to do PC-based correction). By using a 10-bit space, you will not lose too much, if any, bit depth. There may be an occasional color overlap, but it is unlikely to be noticeable. Once the Radiance is a fully operational battle station, this should make a lot of folks happy. I may even buy an RS1 at that point (I passed when my turn in the pre-buy came up), though the VW60 also has its attractions.

Bill

Yes, with PC you are limited to 8 bit processing. Although ATI cards support 10 bit processing with the last two generations of graphic cards, the OS apparently doesn't support it. To be honest, due to the OS limitation all software appears to be also limited to 8 bit processing.

The question was not what's the best way of correcting the colors, but how could we correct the colors n-o-w. The best way we already knew before even the start of this thread: the RS1 having accurate primaries.:D

The best way we already knew before even the start of this thread: the RS1 having accurate primaries.:DI don't agree that accurate primaries are necessarily best. Natively over-saturated primaries are not inherently bad. In principle, a CMS can be always be used to de-saturate them and hopefully, depending on exactly where the native primaries lie with respect to CIE axes, be able to move them to exact reference points (such as Rec 709) if desired. The purist are then happy. But users who prefer 'juiced-up' colors can have them too if they wish. Everyone is then happy.

Also, it seems that at least a little bit of head-room on the primary locations would be desirable to be allow the ability to compensate for changes in lamp spectra that would arise due to manufacturing variances or aging.

Brent

In principle, a CMS can be always be used to de-saturate them and hopefully, depending on exactly where the native primaries lie with respect to CIE axes, be able to move them to exact reference points (such as Rec 709) if desired. The purist are then happy. But users who prefer 'juiced-up' colors can have them too if they wish. Everyone is then happy.
Brent

And that seems to be the problem... exactly what CMS are you talking about?? Even a $4k Crystalio can't fix the RS1.

Don't get me wrong, I have an RS1 and love it. But those greens... sometimes...

... exactly what CMS are you talking about?? Even a $4k Crystalio can't fix the RS1.The one that JVC could have, but didn't, add for a paltry $25 or so incremental manufacturing cost (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11203199#post11203199). :mad:

That is why I said in principle

Brent

For everyone's amusement - Turns out JVC acknowledges the importance of "natural and vibrant color". Their solution ? "5 Point Color Management" (http://tv.jvc.com/product.jsp?modelId=MODL027864&pathId=139&page=11) for "Superior Color Reproduction" available in their HD-ILA big screen (RPTV) television line, eg:

No other company delivers natural and vibrant color and realistic flesh tones like JVC. In our side by side comparisons we found even our closest rivals had saturated images and flesh tones were pinkish in hue. Responsible for our color reproduction is exclusive 5 Point Color Management which compensates for potential color range limitations common in image reproduction. By using a pin-point sampling process to indicate which colors need to be softened and which colors toned down, JVC televisions are able to deliver true color that is never too weak or too saturated.

The 5th axis dedicated to flesh tone color sampling truly sets us apart by insuring that skin tones are smooth and natural

Brent

Well, I forgot to add "as an option" to my statement...

So, here it is again:
The best way we already knew before even the start of this thread: the RS1 having accurate primaries as an option to the wider color gamut.

kiwishred

Don't get too excited - most systems that sample a video color are in fact color replacement systems not color management systems. The difference being that the former changes colors close to the sample color, while the latter changes the gamut definition and thus all the colors. The former can be used to remove an annoyance in one scene - with the further annoyance that in another scene a gradient will look wierd - while the later removes all annoyances in all scenes.

For everyone's amusement - Turns out JVC acknowledges the importance of "natural and vibrant color". Their solution ? "5 Point Color Management" (http://tv.jvc.com/product.jsp?modelId=MODL027864&pathId=139&page=11) for "Superior Color Reproduction" available in their HD-ILA big screen (RPTV) television line, eg:



Brent

Hi,

and it's the same thing with "gamma customiser" available on HD 2K or HD 10K and not on the RS 1 :rolleyes:.

Hi,

and it's the same thing with "gamma customiser" available on HD 2K or HD 10K and not on the RS 1 :rolleyes:.


If its any consolation I still think the RS1 blows the HD10k away.

If its any consolation I still think the RS1 blows the HD10k away.

If I get the color issue solved, I think the RS1 is so good that I could keep it 5 years without thinking twice. Everything about this projector is great for my set-up except the one issue. The rest of the stuff, I could care less about. That's why this is such a big issue for me. I am only one step away from having what for me would be the perfect projector.

Ok, I guess this might have been commented on before, but just read projector centrals review of the RS1.

"The DLA-RS1 comes precalibrated to D65, so no adjustments are necessary to get beautiful color balance right out of the box. Due to lamp variation from unit to unit, some users might want to make subtle adjustments to the default settings to attain perfection, but our test unit was dead on with no color accuracy adjustments required. We did find that color saturation was low on the default setting, and we boosted the color saturation control from the zero default up to +8. But the ideal adjustment may vary from unit to unit, and it will also vary depending on the type of material being viewed."

What??

Are they crazy, or does some RS1s come with less colorsaturation?

all rs1 vary out of the box, all projectors vary out of the box.

Ok, I guess this might have been commented on before, but just read projector centrals review of the RS1.

"The DLA-RS1 comes precalibrated to D65, so no adjustments are necessary to get beautiful color balance right out of the box. Due to lamp variation from unit to unit, some users might want to make subtle adjustments to the default settings to attain perfection, but our test unit was dead on with no color accuracy adjustments required. We did find that color saturation was low on the default setting, and we boosted the color saturation control from the zero default up to +8. But the ideal adjustment may vary from unit to unit, and it will also vary depending on the type of material being viewed."

What??

Are they crazy, or does some RS1s come with less colorsaturation?There is a significant difference between saturation of the chroma level and saturation of the primaries in the color space.

There is a significant difference between saturation of the chroma level and saturation of the primaries in the color space.
There is also a significant difference between the psychovisual concept of saturation vs. the actual metrology of saturation.

There is also a significant difference between the psychovisual concept of saturation vs. the actual metrology of saturation.Are you saying that some are over-reacting to what they think they are seeing?

You missed the obvious - PJC is incompetent at technical PJ reviews...they are clearly talking about using the blue AVIA filter and have no clue about 3D gamut diagrams or colorspaces.

Are you saying that some are over-reacting to what they think they are seeing?


I am wondering how significant the actual gammut looks like as a cube rather than the peak metering of RGB on a CIE chromaticity diagram.

I've yet to find the colour distracting on the HD1/RS1 despite looking for it.

I am wondering how significant the actual gammut looks like as a cube rather than the peak metering of RGB on a CIE chromaticity diagram.

I've yet to find the colour distracting on the HD1/RS1 despite looking for it.
I haven't seen any objectionable color issues, however, with my Lumagen, I have corrected the gray scale and gamma variations, in 11 steps, along with color decoding corrections for each of my sources. It is extremely enjoyable to watch and flesh tones look great. Since I have a matte white screen, there is no color-shift or hot spots, I just need to improve the black level. I may sell the RS1 to try the RS2..... I am intrigued with the 30,000:1 CR.

Are you saying that some are over-reacting to what they think they are seeing?
No, I'm pointing out that chroma saturation is a color decoder function, which can be measured. I haven't measured an RS1/HD1 yet, but I trust Greg when he says that the color decoder is basically spot-on given where the primaries are located. This can be measured, but you have to compute the right targets. Then there is the primary saturation issue, where the primaries are clearly oversaturated. This is measured as distance from the white point vs. the reference.

Then there is psychovisual saturation which is a function of L and C. THIS is more than likely what PJC was "calibrating", especially since the further off the primaries are, the harder using a filter is, i.e., the more the psychovisual issue creep into the mix. Said more plainly, the more imperfectly the blue filter blocks red and green, the harder it is to set the color decoder accurately using visual methods.

You missed the obvious - PJC is incompetent at technical PJ reviews...they are clearly talking about using the blue AVIA filter and have no clue about 3D gamut diagrams or colorspaces.
I am skeptical that they know how to use it, but I could be wrong. :)

kiwishred

Don't get too excited - most systems that sample a video color are in fact color replacement systems not color management systems. The difference being that the former changes colors close to the sample color, while the latter changes the gamut definition and thus all the colors. The former can be used to remove an annoyance in one scene - with the further annoyance that in another scene a gradient will look wierd - while the later removes all annoyances in all scenes.Kras:

It's even worse than that. I looked at the user manual for one of the displays whose promotional literature mentions the 5-point color management system and there was no mention of any such feature.

The only reference to Color management was one On/Off menu selection that, according to the manual, will: "ensure dull colors are compensated to produce natural hues."

As Ross Perot famously said, "The devil is in the details." In this case the details don't look like much at all.

For those who may be interested, it looks like Lumagen is planning a release of color primary controls on their Radiance model within a week. Should be interesting to hear the feedback.

For those who may be interested, it looks like Lumagen is planning a release of color primary controls on their Radiance model within a week. Should be interesting to hear the feedback.Has anyone got any CIE x,y measurements of the SD and HD RS1 gamuts? I know there are other factors, but until I get access to a colorimeter I'll need to plug someone else's numbers in.

I know Lumagen is currently working on a CMS for the Radiance. I don't know the release timetable but it should be in the next release baring any quick bug fix release.

I wonder how much light output would be lost by dialing in accurate colours on the RS1.

http://http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=912720

Dead link

Dead link

Sorry for the confusion, I removed the post with link as I was incorrect. I thought I read Zoyd was adjusting an RS1 but that's not the case.

Threads like this happen a lot when "experts" tell you what a image "should" look like. for instance they suggest 12 foot lamberts of brightness.
Tryg,

WRONG!!! This is NOT about someone's 'opinion' - it's about JVC NOT following the
standard!!!

The color of a video image is encoded in the signal. There is a standard as to exactly
what the primary colors are supposed to be - i.e. what frequency is the red primary,
what frequency is the blue primary...

Have you ever been to a paint store where they mix paints? You pick a color, and the
store takes a base white paint and adds pigments to get the color you desire - that youve
picked from one of the little paint sampler charts.

When you choose your desired color - the store mixes the paint as per a formula for your
color choice - adding in pre-determined amounts of their standard pigments - all so you
get the exact color that you chose.

In order for that system to work, and so colors don't vary from store to store - the color
of the pigments in each store have to be standardized. A "Prussian Blue" in one store
has to be the same as the "Prussian Blue" in another store.

The colors for TVs, plasmas, projectors are all standardized. When the RGB signal says
"X"% blue- it means "X"% of a particular blue. Unfortunately, JVC didn't adhere to
the standard. Their blue is NOT the blue that the signal is calling for.

You can subjectively argue that you like the color - but it's undisputable that JVC
did NOT follow the standard that they should have.

I really don't see why so many have problems understanding this because it is quite
simple. It's NOT about whether you subjectively like the picture color or not - it's about
following the standard so that the picture is the corrrect color as seen by the
camera.

It's EASILY seen that there has to be agreement among all the components of the
video chain as to just what color "blue" is. The "blue" seen by the camera has to be
interpreted by all the components in the video chain as the same blue - otherwise one
is not reproducing the image as the camera saw it.

Having a projector that substitutes its own version of blue for the industry standard blue
is like having a language translator that translates poorly and does not convey the
meaning of a phrase he/she is translating properly.

There's no reason one has to "accept" less than accurate translations, or video color;
because there's nothing to preclude accuracy. All that is required is that manufacturers
follow the standards that have been agreed upon.

Of that there can be NO QUESTION; the fact that one may like the result,
notwithstanding.

<snip>
You can subjectively argue that you like the color - but it's undisputable that JVC
did NOT follow the standard that they should have.

<snip>

Ironic that this projector is from the JVC Professional Division with a moniker of RS-1 (Reference Series) :)

Somebody at JVC must not have gotten the memo. :D

The RS-1 is of course a re-skinned HD-1 which is for "public consumption", but your point is completely valid.

Ironic that this projector is from the JVC Professional Division with a moniker of RS-1 (Reference Series) :)

Somebody at JVC must not have gotten the memo. :D
DIY Guy,

Probably more like the marketing types trumped the engineers.

One sees the same thing in the audio half of this hobby. There's a very well known
speaker company that has built its business on market research rather than accuracy.

They know that lots of people like big boomy bass. Some people think that when the bass
booms at you - then you are experiencing the ultimate in sound reproduction.

However, in point of fact - big boomy bass is not the ultimate in sound reproduction;
because it is inaccurate. A true audiophile is going for accuracy; not to try to have
his / her dental fillings shaken from their lair.

I'm positive the engineers at JVC can produce a PJ that follows the standards and
produces accurate colors. Unfortunately, when the marketing types tell the company
execs that they can boost sales by marketing a projector that has brighter flashier,
more blooming colors - the video analogy to boomy bass in audio - then the execs
go for the green and not for the accurate product for the true videophile.

Just like the true audiophile's dollars have to compete with the dollars from all the young
boomy bass fans - so also does the true videophile who can appreciate accurate colors,
also has to compete with those that want glitz and bloom in their projected images.

I don't know who is going to win that face-off; but as someone who appreciates accurate
color, I'm a bit worried about our side.

The inaccurate JVC colors was not a screw-up; it was designed to go after the less
discerning people in the market.

The inaccurate JVC colors was not a screw-up; it was designed to go after the less
discerning people in the market.

I wonder how hard it would of been to have added a reference/wide color setting? A win/win for both PRO and consumer.

I am amazed at the number of people that think the actual primaries in displays is an intentional effort of the manufacturers. I think it is a result of the combination of the light source and the method of splitting the light. There are no correction filters in the light path. We get what we get for two reasons, the process and the budget. The projector is designed for a specific price point determined by marketing and manufactured to met the cost set by the company. This was designed to be a "Mustang", not the "Ford GT". Sure they could have done this and that to the projector to the point it's cost would be in the six digits. They didn't it is a projector they probably build for less than $2K, then burden the cost with marketing, distribution and warranty.

The marketing of "expanded color space" is only an attempt to gloss over a manufacturing or technology issue. Dupe the public into thinking they are getting something extra, like selling a used car.... Don't think it is anything other than damage control. DLP is a big offender, they use filters to achieve the primaries, none of them are correct either, they need color management systems too.

How many would buy this projector if it was $30K, $40K or $100K and had all the desired features?

I am amazed at the number of people that think the actual primaries in displays is an intentional effort of the manufacturers. I think it is a result of the combination of the light source and the method of splitting the light. There are no correction filters in the light path.
GlenC,

Your statement that there are no filters in the light path is WRONG!!
You just don't know where the filters are.

The D-ILA projectors use dichroic color splitters - with dichroic mirrors.

The dichroic mirrors have a thin film coating that is the filter. This thin film will
pass light at certain frequencies and reflect all other frequencies.

Dichroic filters use an interference principle to selectively pass certain frequencies.

The interference is determined by the frequency or wavelength of the light. Only light
with a certain wavelength will have the correct interference properties to be allowed to
pass through the diachroic filter.

Which frequencies are passed is part of the design of the diachroic thin film coating.

That's how the manufacturer determines the primaries for the projector - by the design
of the dichroic thin film coating on the mirrors.

So when you say that you are surprised that people think that the color of the primaries
is an intentional effort of the manufacturers; how do you think the device ends up
with the particular primary colors? Happenstance?

No - the primary colors are part of the projector's DESIGN!!!

I just told you what part of the projector is spec'ed to give the proper primary colors;
in the case of the D-ILA, it is the diachroic mirror coatings.

There's absolutely ZERO reason a color accurate JVC projector should cost
any more; much less MUCH more; than the currently shipping product.

The marketing of "expanded color space" is only an attempt to gloss over a manufacturing or technology issue.
Genoa Color Technologies is but one company whose business model seems based on the marketing of "expanded color space". They have PJ and Display manufacturers as customers…
Genoa significantly raises the standard for color performance expectations by dramatically expanding the gamut of visible color beyond the limits of standard RGB devices. Not only is the gamut much larger (~60%), but colors are brighter, richer and more natural.

Dave

GlenC,

Your statement that there are no filters in the light path is WRONG!!
You just don't know where the filters are.Don't fall off your soap box ant hurt your self. Can't you read accurately? I said "no correction filters in the light path." If you know about the 45" JVC broadcast reference monitor, you know that they use color correction filters to achieve the desired color gamut, REC 601, REC 709, D Cinema, what ever you want.

Part of the issue could be the light spectrum within the bulb, the much more expensive xenon bulbs are supposed to be more of a full spectrum source with better color properties. Only big down side was the $1K+ cost....

As I have said before, the RS1 design is fixed and will not be updated. We and others will likely show some affordable external solutions at CEDIA.

Did this happen?

Pretty sad that still there are so called experts that think JVC did not do correct color because it is hard and expensive. It is only hard and expensive to correct after the fact - yet this very thread has JVC promising a easy inexpensive box to fix it that they did not produce - causing gregr to ask if people want to buy his one off - not hard just takes time and a little money after all.

You do not have to choose optical RGB filters that are correct - you can fix it digitally. That is neither hard nor expensive - unless you intentionally designed the box to not support that. All it requires is a hard coded 3x3 matrix multiply - which takes very little space in hardware/software. Already there is an HTPC thread investigating how to do this for free!

What is difficult is implementing a full blown CMS - which requires adjusting the individual components of that matrix to achive a calibration target. But that is not required - all that is required is a simple menu selection for REC709/SMPTE-C color choice. The video engineers at the factory choose coefficients based on their sQA of the RGB filters they are using.

There are many very cheap PJ's that can get the color correct - Panny LCD below $2K, Optoma/Infocus DLP below $1K! There is no apologizing for it by saying you get what you pay for - that we should be so lucky that it does not cost same as $45K pro monitors!

It was none other than a specific design choice by JVC to exceed the gamut of the competing Sony - too bad for JVC the new Sony saw the light and added a correct color menu option. Damn - there goes your hard and expensive argument. Sony only does stuff that is cheap and easy. I look forward to more ads from Sony and Panny bragging about their accurate colors designed by Hollywood colorists (reminding us that they own Hollywood)

It is one thing to say you like the larger color gamut - it is another to claim that is more accurate, it is all they could afford, etc. It is a simple fact that the JVC gamut has the largest gamut extension of any recent PJ - with no ability to conform to the SD/HD standard gamut.

Can't you read accurately? I said "no correction filters in the light path." .
Glen,

Then you need to DEFINE your terms better!!!!

There's no standard definition of a "correction filter" as opposed to any other type
of filter. If you are going to use non-standard definitions of terms; then YOU
have to define them in your post and not get all huffy when someone doesn't correctly
interpret your terms.

You'd never make it past the publication reviewers for a scientific journal with writings
that don't properly define non-standard terms.

Additionally, you need to review your optics. One wouldn't normally use a color correction
filter on light that has been split via dichroic mirrors. These mirrors are very precise
as to what frequencies they pass, since only those in a very narrow passband that
meet the Fabry-Perot interference conditions are passed.

Pretty sad that still there are so called experts that think JVC did not do correct color because it is hard and expensive. It is only hard and expensive to correct after the fact - yet this very thread has JVC promising a easy inexpensive box to fix it that they did not produce - causing gregr to ask if people want to buy his one off - not hard just takes time and a little money after all.

You do not have to choose optical RGB filters that are correct - you can fix it digitally. That is neither hard nor expensive - unless you intentionally designed the box to not support that. All it requires is a hard coded 3x3 matrix multiply - which takes very little space in hardware/software. Already there is an HTPC thread investigating how to do this for free!
....

It is one thing to say you like the larger color gamut - it is another to claim that is more accurate, it is all they could afford, etc. It is a simple fact that the JVC gamut has the largest gamut extension of any recent PJ - with no ability to conform to the SD/HD standard gamut.

krasmuzik,

EXACTLY!! This was a design decision by JVC; not a result of either accident,
ineptness, or whatever....

A full 3x3 matrix multiply to the RGB signal can correct the primaries, as you correctly
point out. A full CMS system would not be required - just the 3x3 matrix multiply.

Unfortunately, JVC didn't provide that. You suggestion that if one is going to go a
non-standard route, for whatever reason; one should also implement the option to
bypass the non-standard features and default to standard primary colors.

Evidently Sony thought of that....I wonder why JVC didn't.

D
Part of the issue could be the light spectrum within the bulb, the much more expensive xenon bulbs are supposed to be more of a full spectrum source with better color properties. Only big down side was the $1K+ cost....
Glen,

A Xenon bulb, like in the first JVC G-series D-ILA projectors [ which I have ] have a
different color temperature than the UHP bulbs that JVC uses now.

However, with either bulb, there's still PLENTY of output at the SMPTE primary color
frequencies. One can then correct the the D-ILA response for whatever the color mix
coming from the bulb.

The D-ILA device is non-linear in its response anyway, which is why they have the
1024 point / color response function that were used to adjust the G-series "business"
projectors so that they can track a grayscale.

The same mechanism that is correcting for the D-ILA chip's non-linear response, can
also be used to correct it for the frequency content of WHATEVER light source one
uses with it, irrespective of the color temperature of that light source.

There's no reason that the RS1 needs to have different primary colors because of the
bulb. After all, with their latter projector model, JVC has taken to using light sources
that are similar to those of other PJ manufacturers.

It was JVC that was the "lone wolf" in using Xenon bulbs. There's nothing about the
D-ILA chip, nor its method of operation that is more optimal with Xenon.

The D-ILA chips are just modulating a monochromatic source; which is all any digital
PJs chips are doing.

There's absolutely ZERO technical reason for JVC not conforming to the SMPTE
standard color primaries.

I think we should ask someone at Avscience to let tstites explain the current situation from the JVC point of view. He did use the words will likely.
1 Will JVC sell a box?
2 Will there be a "reasonably" priced box by a third party, <1000$?
3 Is the gregr box the only way to go?

Lumagen just released the first version of software with their CMS in it... (installing in a minute...)

Shawn

Lumagen just released the first version of software with their CMS in it... (installing in a minute...)And. . . . . ?

Because this is going to get forgotten...

THIS IS THE FIRST VERSION OF LUMAGEN'S Color Gamut Control!!!!

As it is right now the controls don't have enough range to get the blue/red in the RS-1 completely in line. I posted that on the beta forum and Lumagen has already responded that they will double the available range of their controls.

Again... LUMAGEN HAS ALREADY SAID THEY ARE GOING TO DOUBLE THE RANGE OF THEIR CONTROLS!!!!

Shawn

Tweaked blue a little bit more....

There's absolutely ZERO technical reason for JVC not conforming to the SMPTE
standard color primaries.It shouldn't cost them more than $25 in manufacturing cost (plus NRE) to put switchable, nominally accurate, SMPTE C and Rec.709 primary colors (in addition to switchable native primary colors) in the projector design.

I've been preaching about this for many years and showing the primary/complementary color inaccuracy in my reviews for years. I've praised the manufacturers that provided user adjustable CMS systems in high-quality front projectors (Yamaha did the best job, closely followed by Sharp) in my reviews (i.e. Yamaha made the best 720p projector - and that was one very important reason, and Sharp's projector's have also been very good - again in part for that reason). But there is really no good reason to omit nominally accurate SMPTE C and Rec 709 primary color selections in any of today's higher quality projectors, even without a fully adjustable CMS. I've been talking about that long enough now that I've lost patience waiting for it any longer, which is why I've begun to discuss it more and more here on the forum.

The difference between the SMPTE C primary colors and the native primary colors of most projectors is perceptually very large. I really applaud Sony for making an effort to provide nominally accurate SMPTE C primaries in the VW60. I wish they would have also provided a Rec 709 selection, and I will give high praise to projectors in the future that provide both. However, practically speaking, the difference between the Rec 709 primaries and the native primaries of many projectors is not as perceptually troubling, and in many cases SMPTE C primaries are the better choice to use for all sources because of the limitations of professional monitors (this will eventually change however). So I applaud what Sony did, and for now tolerate what it didn't do, in the VW60. But they (and others) will earn additional praise when they also add a Rec 709 primary color choice to their projectors.

As it is right now the controls don't have enough range to get the blue/red in the RS-1 completely in line.


Shawn,

Thanks for posting this. I guess this means the RS2 will be even harder to pull in, unless the range extends far enough.

Mike

"Thanks for posting this. I guess this means the RS2 will be even harder to pull in, unless the range extends far enough."

Lumagen is going to double the range and it will probably happen pretty quickly knowing Lumagen.

Shawn

I've been watching a little of Casino Royal. I setup Lumagen Output Config0 to have the Gamut adjustments and Output Config1 not to. I then set Config0 to Input MemA and Config1 to InputMemB. This way I can switch between the two with a press of the button.

The color difference is dramatic. With the correction in place I had to back down on the Contrast level a little as it looks like I was getting white crush. The color correction literally adds color to the color being corrected. For example on GREEN the controls are ADD Red and ADD Blue.

Not that screen shots show everything but this should gives an idea on what the difference looks like.

Shawn

Two more...

Shawn, we really need more information to tell if Lumagen is indeed heading in the right direction. Please take a lux reading using a 75% green window with the saturation control all the way up and then take another lux reading with the saturation control all the way down and report the 2 numbers. If the 2 numbers are close to identical, then the saturation control is working properly, but if the lux numbers are hugely different, then Lumagen has failed in the same way that PMS did. I am sure that many people are eagerly awaiting your results!

Greg, we are getting near the end of October...Have you made any decisions as to whether or not you will do a run of CMS boxes? I will buy 2 of them if you do...:)

Bob,

The Color Gamut Control is based on Red, Green and Blue.

The options in Red are Add Green Add Blue
Green is Add Red and Add Blue
Blue is Add Red and Add Green

There is no saturation control.

Shawn

I don't think that will work, Shawn, as every time a change is made to "correct" a primary, a change will be made to luminance unless Lumagen is correcting luminance as the changes are made. Maybe Greg can tell us better (or different), but offhand I would say "strike 1"...:(

The Color Gamut Control is based on Red, Green and Blue.

The options in Red are Add Green Add Blue
Green is Add Red and Add Blue
Blue is Add Red and Add Green

There is no saturation control.To reduce saturation you would add equal amounts of the other 2 primaries. To affect hue you would add one of the other primaries.

My question is how would one adjust Lightness?

Took two Lux readings. When you go into the Gamut contol on the Radiance for each color it automatically puts up the appropriate primary color.

On the green when the Add Red and Add Blue were at zero (IOW no correction) I measured 174 lux with the meter on a tripod.

On the green when the Add Red was 50 and Add Blue was 63 (63 is current max) I measured 176 lux with the meter still on the tripod.

Shawn

With a 75% window of the GetGray on Red.

With correction 52 lux.
Without correction 49lux.

Shawn

Edit: Meter reading on these two is at a different tripod location then the first two.

Greg, we are getting near the end of October...Have you made any decisions as to whether or not you will do a run of CMS boxes? I will buy 2 of them if you do...:)I know Lumagen has the knowledge to do this correctly. So ask me again at the end of October. I am very busy with the HDG-4000 until then anyway ....

With a 75% window of the GetGray on Red.

With correction 52 lux.
Without correction 49lux.It sure sounds like we finally got a functional external CMS that adjusts saturation without screwing up lightness.

With correction 52 lux.
Without correction 49lux.

On the green when the Add Red and Add Blue were at zero (IOW no correction) I measured 174 lux with the meter on a tripod.

On the green when the Add Red was 50 and Add Blue was 63 (63 is current max) I measured 176 lux with the meter still on the tripod.
Yup, looks good! :)

Few more pics...

Another pair...

Last pair..

Great stuff Shawn.

Ironically I would be willing to bet that the majority of jsp's would greatly prefer the over saturated shots to the more accurate ones. No doubt JVC believes this as well.

Kudos to Lumagen for doing this upgrade.

I'll take the correctly saturated on the first two and the oversaturated on the last one :).

Another pair...

Those pics were not what I was expecting based on your description! :D

Maybe Im just ignorant, but I prefer the oversaturated ones....:o

Whats the Lumagen cost?

Bravo Lumagen! The no-ring scaling looks great as well. I never noticed the "ringing" before until I saw it corrected in Lumagen shot. Then I could clearly see it on the RS1. If you consider how much HDMI adds to the cost, the CMS, and the improvement made by the no ring scaling, the Lumagen seems like a good choice especially at the AVS pre-production price.

Maybe Im just ignorant, but I prefer the oversaturated ones....:o

Whats the Lumagen cost?

At least with the CMS you will get to decide how much saturation you want. Maybe some will chose to eliminate some percentage of the oversaturation and not all. The RS1 has too much for my taste. When I purchase the Lumagen, I am just going to calibrate to the standards and let the director of the film decide how much oversaturation he wants to present if any in his film and not JVC. I can live with that.

I've been watching a little of Casino Royal. I setup Lumagen Output Config0 to have the Gamut adjustments and Output Config1 not to. I then set Config0 to Input MemA and Config1 to InputMemB. This way I can switch between the two with a press of the button.

The color difference is dramatic. With the correction in place I had to back down on the Contrast level a little as it looks like I was getting white crush. The color correction literally adds color to the color being corrected. For example on GREEN the controls are ADD Red and ADD Blue.

Not that screen shots show everything but this should gives an idea on what the difference looks like.

Shawn

What type of signal are you outputting? 10 bit? Wondering if you can finally settle the concern about that. Great job with the pics.

Yes what kind of signal does the Lumagen box send out?
Will this CMS feature come to a range of Lumagen products. Correcting the color at many thousands of dollars is kind of expensive for those on a budget.

"What type of signal are you outputting? 10 bit?"

Right now I think just 8 bit RGB. The options for 10 and 12 bit 4:2:2 are not in the software yet.

Shawn

"The no-ring scaling looks great as well. I never noticed the "ringing" before until I saw it corrected in Lumagen shot."

FWIW even those these are 1080p24 out of the RS1 they have all been scaled because of my ISCO II that is always in the light path.

Shawn

the Lumagen seems like a good choice especially at the AVS pre-production price.
Where do I find further information on this?

sfogg
Is it clear that Lumagen will improve the softare to finally use 12 bit 4:2:2?
Radiance is an overkill for many. Do you know if there are plans for a product accepting only a couple of hdms and component with hdmi out, this with the CMS and a lower price?

Where do I find further information on this?

The Unofficial RadianceXD FAQ (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=909924) has more info.

"The no-ring scaling looks great as well. I never noticed the "ringing" before until I saw it corrected in Lumagen shot."

FWIW even those these are 1080p24 out of the RS1 they have all been scaled because of my ISCO II that is always in the light path.

Shawn

I saw the pic of no ring scaling on the Lumagen thread.

sfogg
Is it clear that Lumagen will improve the softare to finally use 12 bit 4:2:2?
Radiance is an overkill for many. Do you know if there are plans for a product accepting only a couple of hdms and component with hdmi out, this with the CMS and a lower price?
I asked this question about 6 months ago. I was told that yes there are other products planned in the new line they will be lower priced. As to when to expect them, I was told it would be some time out because they were still developing the Radiance XD. If your figure in the cost of having HDMI then even a lower priced solution is still going to cost a bit. A small company like Lumagen is not really going to be able to sell such a volume as to not pass the significant cost of having HDMI. Even at half the price it is still a lot more than what JVC could have done it. Here from the unoffical thread, "...Anyhow, on top of the XD and the Pro, Lumagen is also planning a RadianceXS - that would be the 'light' (aka cheaper) version of the XD. No feature list, no schedule, but fewer inputs is pretty much a certainty.

Where do I find further information on this?

I called Jason here on AVS and he gave me the price.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11473155#post11473155 No ring scaling. Just scroll down so that you can only see the last two pics. You can clearly see the ringing on the VP50 shot. No ringing on the Lumagen Radiance shot.

Great stuff Shawn.

Ironically I would be willing to bet that the majority of jsp's would greatly prefer the over saturated shots to the more accurate ones. No doubt JVC believes this as well.


I believe that this has been said over 1000 times already.

Since you must say that many people prefer it that way, let me counter that a number of people do not.

Is that reasonable?

Go ahead and kick me in the teeth...

Best Regards,
Doug

Sfogg,

Thanks for the info. The end results look very promising, even with a half-way fix things look much better. Since many of us have jury-rigged reduced saturation using the color control I'd be interested to see what relative differences your camera portrays with the no primary correction but the color control at -15 or so. Could you snap a few pics using a couple of the same scenes already posted?

Also, using Lumagens CMS are the secondaries untouched?

One last comment about ringing on the RS1, from the Projector Central review,"The RS1's sharpness control has a range of -30 to +30, with a factory default at zero. Settings above zero introduce progressively more ringing and edge effects. But settings toward the softer end of the scale introduce excessive blurriness.."

Bulldogger,

In my setup ringing is completely eliminated only when the RS1's sharpness control is at -30. I suspect JVC has added a little sharpening to all settings except -30 to help offset some acuity issues elswhere. At times -30 works great other times I prefer much higher settings. Using resolution patterns have noticed that JVC's sharpness control, apart from typical and significant moire, introduces coloring to high frequency patterns. Further testing with my XA2's edge enhancement feature has shown it to be superior to the JVC's sharpness control by not introducing coloring to the same patterns so I use this at level 1 with JVC's sharpness control at -30.

Perhaps this discussion should be moved to owners thread.

"Is it clear that Lumagen will improve the softare to finally use 12 bit 4:2:2?"

Yes, Jim has stated this numerous times in the Radiance thread.

Shawn

"The end results look very promising, even with a half-way fix things look much better."

Switching between corrected and not while watching video and it literally looks like a different projector.

"I'd be interested to see what relative differences your camera portrays with the no primary correction but the color control at -15 or so. Could you snap a few pics using a couple of the same scenes already posted?"

If I get a chance today I'll give that a try. Color control in the JVC was set at 0 for all the above pictures.

"Also, using Lumagens CMS are the secondaries untouched?"

Should be as this is called the Primary Gamut control. I think Jim has basically said if you get the primaries right and the greyscale correct (greyscale calibration coming soon in the Radiance) then the secondaries will be correct too.

Shawn

"Ironically I would be willing to bet that the majority of jsp's would greatly prefer the over saturated shots to the more accurate ones."

Viewing the screenshots on my laptop, I'd take about halfway between.

Shawn, any examples of it taming green w/o desaturating the other colors?

All it requires is a hard coded 3x3 matrix multiply - which takes very little space in hardware/software.Already there is an HTPC thread investigating how to do this for free!

Have you seen the thread recently? It's already working!
Now, I can see stuff in my JVC M15 with accurate colors.
I think I am starting to be a "color accurate" guy. It's not unwatchable without the color correction, but it's better with it. Until now, I only have watched some "Lost" episodes, and now I noticed that, before, the water was a greenish blue, now, it's blue.
Even with the correction being with 8-bit color depth, no signs of banding until now.

I believe that this has been said over 1000 times already.

Since you must say that many people prefer it that way, let me counter that a number of people do not.

Is that reasonable?

Go ahead and kick me in the teeth...

Best Regards,
Doug

What the hell kind of post is this?

Why would I kick you in the teeth for having a personal preference? :rolleyes:

Noah,

"Viewing the screenshots on my laptop, I'd take about halfway between."

Uncalibrated monitors make this tough.. the pics look fairly different between my two laptops for example.

Of course with the Gamut Control in the Lumagen one is free to do this. There are like 8 or 10 output configs available. You could set them up for various levels of correction and switch through them at will.

It was interesting seeing how I reacted to the changes. When I first swapped over I was like 'where is all the color...' then after watching it for a minute or two and switching back I was wondering why 007 has been eating nothing but carrots for the last 6 months?

"any examples of it taming green w/o desaturating the other colors?"

I'll try that tonight if I get a chance. Any specific scene you would like to see?

Shawn

"Ironically I would be willing to bet that the majority of jsp's would greatly prefer the over saturated shots to the more accurate ones."

Viewing the screenshots on my laptop, I'd take about halfway between.



That's exactly where I would like to see them as well Noah.

I have requested this already a few posts back, but I realized that the previous pictures were not correct. Now, these are.

Could any of you RS1 owners do me a favor and show me the bad colors? I would like to see these two images I post here:

Color bars with all primary and secondary colors at RGB level 255:
92432
Color bars with all primary and secondary colors at RGB level 200:
92433

The top row are the RS1 primaries and the bottom row are the BT.709 primaries mapped inside the RS1 color gammut. If you could zoom the image in your projector and take a pic and post it here I would be very apreciated.
This way we could see, side by side, the color differences.

Chris Carollo, are you still following this thread? :)

Thanks.

"The end results look very promising, even with a half-way fix things look much better."

Switching between corrected and not while watching video and it literally looks like a different projector.

Shawn

The change of skin tone is remarkable.

The change of skin tone is remarkable.

;)

I think Jim has basically said if you get the primaries right and the greyscale correct (greyscale calibration coming soon in the Radiance) then the secondaries will be correct too.You could still have errors in the hues of secondaries if the color decoder was off.

Here's the improvement of sunburn sydrome typical of reducing the color control to -15. Wish I had Casino Royal. The last photo jut thrown in cause I had room for one more.

I took the liberty of putting these screenshots together to make head-to-head comparisons easier.

To my eyes the first two are dramatically improved with the CMS adjustment. Not only are the flesh tones much more natural, but look at the door in the first example and the shadows created by the dry-cleaning. You can see green noise in the original that the CMS almost completely removes.

I think something went amiss with the final example. The color temperature seems altered in the CMS example. See how much bluer the presumably white pillow is.

Shawn, could you look at that photo and compare it with what you see on screen and verify that it is or is not what the real image looks like. It just doesn't look right to me. [Edit: Fixed]

http://home.comcast.net/%7Etlhuffman/rs1/image1_final.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/%7Etlhuffman/rs1/image2_final.jpg


http://home.comcast.net/%7Etlhuffman/rs1/image3_final1.jpg

BTW, regarding a lower-cost alternative, I spoke with Jim about this some time ago and he expressed an interest in a calibration-only solution. This would be a relatively low cost black box that would have the 11-point grayscale, color decoding adjustments, and this CMS only. No scaling, deinterlacing, no noise reduction. Maybe not even any switching. Obviously, consideration of such a product will have to wait until they've completed development on the Radiance for those who want a full-featured solution.

One final point. Even if you prefer the uncorrected version, one can hardly argue that the difference between the two is small (and this is with the CMS not offering its full range of adjustment. I eagerly await examples after that is complete.). Why manufacturers have been so slow to offer this type of feature when improved scaling and deinterlacing alone can often offer only a subtle improvement to image quality that you might not even notice without it being pointed out.

IMHO, this is a HUGE leap forward in external processing.

To my eyes the first two are dramatically improved with the CMS adjustment. Not only are the flesh tones much more natural, but look at the door in the first example and the shadows created by the dry-cleaning. You can see green noise in the original that the CMS almost completely removes.

Noticed this as well, apart from the skin tones there's simply less color contamination throughout the entire picture. The change in the color of the pink dress originally posted is dramatic as well.

BTW, regarding a lower-cost alternative, I spoke with Jim about this some time ago and he expressed an interest in a calibration-only solution. This would be a relatively low cost black box that would have the 11-point grayscale, color decoding adjustments, and this CMS only. No scaling, deinterlacing, no noise reduction. Maybe not even any switching. Obviously, consideration of such a product will have to wait until they've completed development on the Radiance for those who want a full-featured solution.

Something like that would be ideal as it would not require a HDCP stripper and I'd likely sell the PJ before I spend 4K for an outboard color fix as I don't require anything else in the radiance....well maybe some gamma controls would be nice.

"You could still have errors in the hues of secondaries if the color decoder was off."

Can't the normal hue/color controls in the Lumagen correct for that?

Shawn

Tom,

"I think something went amiss with the final example. The color temperature seems altered in the CMS example. See how much bluer the presumably white pillow is."

That isn't a pillow. That is a scene from Pirates II near the end when she pretends to faint on the beach to try and stop Jack/Will/etc from fighting.

I'll take a look at it again and see if that is what it looked like or not. I have not yet checked/adjusted greyscale after making the changes to the primaries. Lumagen is supposed to be adding their 11 point calibration in pretty soon I think. There looks likes a fair amount of blue in that in the non-corrected version along with some red tinge. With the red dialed back it might be highlighting to blue more.

"IMHO, this is a HUGE leap forward in external processing."

Agreed. This very seriously changes the look of the RS-1. As obvious as it is in the screen shots it is even more so when watching it live on the big screen. It will be interesting to hear what others think about the RS-1 with the Radiance ahead of it correcting the primaries.

Shawn

"Noticed this as well, apart from the skin tones there's simply less color contamination throughout the entire picture. The change in the color of the pink dress originally posted is dramatic as well."

Yes, being able to instantly switch back and forth this beomes obvious in all sort of different places too. Near the start of Casino Royal there is a shot of a building (I think right before they go to M) and the look/feel of that is very different between corrected and not. Non-corrected there is so much red it looks like it is sunset or something and you don't get that sense corrected. Likewise the scene where M walks out of her office (against the background of red walls) non-corrected the walls are overbearing and almost look like they are glowing. Corrected it is far more subdued and normal looking.

Also, I mentioned it earlier on but I want to repeat it again. With the correction my black level/contrast settings (in the Lumagen) had to be slightly adjusted. With them both at 0s the black level was ever so slightly raised up and I was getting a little white crush. I dropped both down and that took care of that.

I've only watched for a 2-3 hours so far but I *really* like what I see so far. In theory it is only going to get better when Lumagen extends the controls and maybe also with 10 and 12bit output.

Shawn

If Lumagen is doing a true CMS - then you WILL need to recalibrate grayscale. grayscale is dependent on RGB gamut - which if redefined - redefines the primary mix required to achieve D65. If just one color has much more white in it (is desaturated) then clearly it upsets the white balance. say green has more red/blue - now white has more red/blue from the green which pulls white magentish.. It may be possible this is something Lumagen is automating if it knows the pre/post calibration coordinates (sounds like you are not giving it the xy info - just saying give more of the other primaries?) This is why PJ's with autocalibration like Runco/SamSung - just ask for the RGBW coordinates so they can refigure the mix.

I am actually amazed at the pics considering the controls still have a ways to go.

Make sure you make all the measures after tweaking and iterate - color LCH (luminance, chroma and hue) of RGBCMY and D65 grayscale from B to W.

Once you get full controls - give yourself two weeks before you switch back to Day-Glo colors so you can truly see the light and why us calibrators are raving lunatics about this. Being able to make that switch back on the same PJ is the best way to do this test - because everything else but the color is the same - you are not distracted by better contrast or more lumens or whatever. I guarantee you the next time toothless J6P invites you and WAF over for dinner and a movie on his PLASMER boob tube - you will suggest that you host instead! I also guarantee that those sellers that lurk here saying nothing is wrong with the colors will be back proclaiming the Most Perfect PJ just got the Mostest More Perfect just send them your Lumagen orders and watch them change their tune. (Anyone watching The Most Smartest Model?)

Have you seen the thread recently? It's already working!
Now, I can see stuff in my JVC M15 with accurate colors.
I think I am starting to be a "color accurate" guy. It's not unwatchable without the color correction, but it's better with it. Until now, I only have watched some "Lost" episodes, and now I noticed that, before, the water was a greenish blue, now, it's blue.
Even with the correction being with 8-bit color depth, no signs of banding until now.

Excellent - if only my HTPC power supply had not let the blue smoke out. Now someone needs to beat up TheaterTek/FFDSHOW to have a pushbutton SMPTE-C option....I don't like my DVD's looking like HDVD's, but I also hate retweaking HTPCs - so maybe it will be automated by the time I get more blue smoke. I am embarassed to admit I am watching DVD's on Svideo now because it is the player I had in storage still containing the blue smoke.

"You could still have errors in the hues of secondaries if the color decoder was off."Can't the normal hue/color controls in the Lumagen correct for that?Color affects the Lightness of ALL of the colors and Hue affects (primarily) cyan. Unless the Lumagen has a separate color/hue controls for RGB, or a main Color/Hue control and then separate controls for red and green, then no.

I know they had something like this in the Vision series. Has this been ported over to the Radiance?

That isn't a pillow. That is a scene from Pirates II near the end when she pretends to faint on the beach to try and stop Jack/Will/etc from fighting.Even better. Sand shouldn't look blue.

I can't believe I mistook Keira Knightly for Eva Green.

"Unless the Lumagen has a separate color/hue controls for RGB, or a main Color/Hue control and then separate controls for red and green, then no."

The Radiance has this.

Shawn

New wrinkle... I remeasured the colors this time using the filter on the Spyder and tweaked it a touch more. Earlier measurements were without the filter which was apparently a mistake.

Will be checking greyscale next though I don't have full control of that yet since that calibration isn't in the Radiance.

Shawn

You can use the PJ's grayscale controls - you just have to be sure to use testpatterns gamut processed by the Radiance - it can then be your only input - other inputs would have bad grayscale.

Shawn, can you post some shots of the infamous Seabiscuit sceens???

Even better. Sand shouldn't look blue.

I can't believe I mistook Keira Knightly for Eva Green.

Tom,

OK, checked out that scene again. That isn't sand, it is her shirt.

But it isn't as blue as those screen shots show. I think the auto white balance was thrown off on the camera.

For these I manually set it to try and get it as close as I could to what I was seeing on screen. I think these are pretty close.

Shawn

Shawn, can you post some shots of the infamous Seabiscuit sceens???

I have my HD-DVD player apart on my bench as I'm testing a mod for it. After I get that back together again I will give them a whirl.

Shawn

I can't believe I mistook Keira Knightly for Eva Green.
Perhaps that's what happens when you spend all your time analyzing whether every aspect of the picture is correct. Perhaps that's the difference between those of us who enjoy the RS1 even with its flaws versus you and Bob. If the beautiful woman next door asks me if I can help with her plumbing and when I arrive she meets me at the door naked, I'll figure out that some interesting things might happen when I go in. You and Bob would start analyzing whether you consider her tan acceptable, wouldn't notice that she's naked, and would promptly head to the basement to find the main shutoff valve.

:p :D

But it isn't as blue as those screen shots show. I think the auto white balance was thrown off on the camera.

For these I manually set it to try and get it as close as I could to what I was seeing on screen. I think these are pretty close.Yes, much, much better. Now the corrected version looks improved in much the same way as the other two.

I updated my comparison images below.

Very exciting! I look forward to seeing the difference displayed once the CMS is capable of making the full corrections necessary. :)


Too bad it requires a $4,000 (?) processor to fix the RS1/RS2. As Greg said before, I'm thrilled Sony offered the consumer both gamuts from the factory on their new VW60 so the consumer doesn't have to shell out $4k to get proper colors...

Shawn, can you post some shots of the infamous Seabiscuit sceens???

It doesn't look like he has green corrected yet... that's the color that's really out there on SB. :)

Once you get full controls - give yourself two weeks before you switch back to Day-Glo colors so you can truly see the light and why us calibrators are raving lunatics about this. Being able to make that switch back on the same PJ is the best way to do this test - because everything else but the color is the same - you are not distracted by better contrast or more lumens or whatever. I guarantee you the next time toothless J6P invites you and WAF over for dinner and a movie on his PLASMER boob tube - you will suggest that you host instead! I also guarantee that those sellers that lurk here saying nothing is wrong with the colors will be back proclaiming the Most Perfect PJ just got the Mostest More Perfect just send them your Lumagen orders and watch them change their tune. (Anyone watching The Most Smartest Model?)

I think this is why I had such a hard time accepting the RS1 colors when I first got mine. Going from a couple fairly accurate displays to the candy colors of the RS1 was an eye opener to say the least! :eek:

"It doesn't look like he has green corrected yet... that's the color that's really out there on SB. "

Green is closer but not there all the way. The first couple of pairs of pictures I posted show some of the difference in green. Along with the flesh tones look at the background in these two.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=92384&d=1192843878

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=92385&d=1192843878

I'll see if I can get the HD-DVD player back together ASAP and get some Seabiscuit pictures.

Shawn

It looks like green is still off by a signifacant amount based on the chart you posted here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11965267#post11965267

Get all three dialed in nicely, THEN post the before and afters so these guys can see how whacked out greens really are on this PJ.


BTW, thanks for posting all of this Shawn. :)

Excellent - if only my HTPC power supply had not let the blue smoke out. Now someone needs to beat up TheaterTek/FFDSHOW to have a pushbutton SMPTE-C option....I don't like my DVD's looking like HDVD's, but I also hate retweaking HTPCs - so maybe it will be automated by the time I get more blue smoke. I am embarassed to admit I am watching DVD's on Svideo now because it is the player I had in storage still containing the blue smoke.

It's not using ffdshow anymore. Just plain free MPC and all the correction is done in the GPU. And you also get a toggle button, so you just pause the image and switch the color correction On/Off.
I have to get a camera borrowed for taking some pics.

I hate to throw yet another variable in, but. . . . The Spyder2 probe is not terribly accurate. In my experience it tends to exaggerate green. Thus, you may be a lot closer to the proper amount of correction than it now appears.

You might want to consider the GretagMacBeth Display2. It's relatively cheap, supported by HCFR, and more accurate than the Spyder2.

OK... couple of comparisons of stock, stock -15 on color and then Gamut corrected with the color back on 0.

First

The difference in this group are quite a bit less obvious in the pictures then it is on screen.

On screen stock most of the background is basically levels of purple. Color -15 is just a little less bright purple.

Gamut corrected and it is far more blue.

This is from the 'Click' trailer on the PS3.

Seabiscuit...

more

still more..

yet more...

Poof - there went the argument that it is not the PJ - that it is the digitally colored SeaBiscuit DVD....

Two more pairs...

and again...

sfogg,

A huge thank-you for those -15 comparisons. Looks like a new new purchase is on the horizon and if we meet someday several rare rounds on me.

Agreed. This very seriously changes the look of the RS-1. As obvious as it is in the screen shots it is even more so when watching it live on the big screen. It will be interesting to hear what others think about the RS-1 with the Radiance ahead of it correcting the primaries.
Right!! Screen shots are one thing, but continued viewing of material of all kinds is where you really discover the value of correct colors. As I've said many times in the past (Rob, time to get out that picture of the horse and whip again...:D ), if you don't have a color correct display to compare it to, you might not be bothered by oversaturated primaries, but once you spend some time with a color correct display, the problems in the RS-1 become obvious and difficult to live with, or at least for me.

Nice work, Shawn!

Looks like a new new purchase is on the horizon and if we meet someday several rare rounds on me.
I'm sorry, guys, but I still think it is a HUGE shame on JVC to make people spend $4K to correct something that they should and could have gotten right in the first place, and for ZERO added cost (as evidenced by the Sony VW-60).

Right!! Screen shots are one thing, but continued viewing of material of all kinds is where you really discover the value of correct colors. As I've said many times in the past (Rob, time to get out that picture of the horse and whip again...:D ), if you don't have a color correct display to compare it to, you might not be bothered by oversaturated primaries, but once you spend some time with a color correct display, the problems in the RS-1 become obvious and difficult to live with, or at least for me.

Well Bob, since you already mentioned it you obviously deprived me of having my fun! ;)

Nice work, Shawn!

Superb!

I very seriously considered getting the Radiance when it was still in beta, with the hope that they would enable a CMS that would help with the RS1's primaries. However, I was also in the market for a new pre/pro at the time, so I went with the Anthem D2. If I had it to do over again.......

.........I would probably still get the D2! :D

sfogg,

A huge thank-you for those -15 comparisons. Looks like a new new purchase is on the horizon and if we meet someday several rare rounds on me.

No problem, hopefully they give an idea of the differences. The second set there was more obviously different in the colors on screen and that the -15 dimmed down the colors compared against the gamut correction.

BTW, only the two posts with 3 pictures in them are the -15 comparison. All the Seabiscuit stuff is stock vs. the Lumagen's gamut correction.

Shawn

Bob,

Thanks, glad you like it.

"the problems in the RS-1 become obvious and difficult to live with, or at least for me."

As far as living with it for me the problems of the RS-1 were less then the problems I had with some of the other options(RBE). And I knew that the problems of the RS-1 could be dealt with where RBE couldn't. YMMV and all that. One of the things I considered when deciding to move to the Radiance was that it would have the primary correction in it... so I'm obviously happy that it is in place now.

"I'm sorry, guys, but I still think it is a HUGE shame on JVC to make people spend $4K to correct something that they should and could have gotten right in the first place, and for ZERO added cost (as evidenced by the Sony VW-60)"

Not disagreeing but this is like most everything else. Either people see the value in a video processor or they don't. The same argument can be made regarding deinterlacing, scaling..etc...etc. Since you have the Crystalio II you obviously see some value in them too.

And of course the Radiance brings much more to the table then just the primary correction, though that is a big leg up on the competition. ;)

Shawn

I'm sorry, guys, but I still think it is a HUGE shame on JVC to make people spend $4K to correct something that they should and could have gotten right in the first place, and for ZERO added cost (as evidenced by the Sony VW-60).

JVC's issue is that offering a solution is akin to admitting to a problem which I doubt they wish to submit to. In all fairness, when one particular PJ has outsold most previous offerings combined why change, if I were an investor I'd expect no less.

As a "rare and valued customer" I'm a little pissed at JVC, this entire issue of the color correction device to be rolled out at CEDIA to come and go with nothing more than a wimper has embarrassed principals on the ground and consumers alike. I've attempted to get more info on WTF happened with two contacts to no avail. It's obvious JVC pulled a fast one which has nothing to do with the PJ's capabilities but only with saving face and protecting a marketed position, you're either with us and shut your mouth or there's the door type stong-arming. JVC has many products which offer proper color gamuts and clearly have the know-how to offer products with standards gamuts but short term market conditions have clouded and veered the pursuit of excellence. As long as their incorrectly colored PJ outsell correct colored ones JVC will not change their position and for an investor that is a correct approach....which is the only approach.

What complcates this for me is the terrific lamp and consequent light output of the SOB.

Shawn,

"Any specific scene you would like to see?"

Seabiscuit took care of it, thanks.

The thing that strikes me about the screenshots is that it looks like I could (and I have) do the same thing by just turning down the color control.

I thought the trick was to reduce the green saturation *without* excessively desaturating everything else (leaving aside the excessively ruddy faces).

Now someone needs to beat up TheaterTek/FFDSHOW to have a pushbutton SMPTE-C option....I don't like my DVD's looking like HDVD's, but I also hate retweaking HTPCs - so maybe it will be automated by the time I get more blue smoke.

Not a problem anymore. Now, you can create a mode for each kind of source you view. It's not automated, but it's just a menu selection.:)
You can also perform white point and gamma correction. If you don't have a light controlled room, you can use the gamma correction for creating a daytime viewing mode and an evening viewing mode.
All this performed in your graphics card with more then 15 bit accuracy.

As far as living with it for me the problems of the RS-1 were less then the problems I had with some of the other options(RBE).
I fully understand and agree, Shawn. For you and others who suffer from the effects of RBE, 1 chip DLP is a much worse problem than bad color.
One of the things I considered when deciding to move to the Radiance was that it would have the primary correction in it... so I'm obviously happy that it is in place now.
Not to mention that as a video processor it is probably as good as you can get (currently, anyway). I am probably going to buy one also for its performance, flexibility and plethora of features, though I am not in as much of a hurry since I already own a Crystalio 2 and a display with fully implemented, fully functional CMS that works directly on the LUTs...;)
Not disagreeing but this is like most everything else. Either people see the value in a video processor or they don't. The same argument can be made regarding deinterlacing, scaling..etc...etc. Since you have the Crystalio II you obviously see some value in them too.

And of course the Radiance brings much more to the table then just the primary correction, though that is a big leg up on the competition.
No argument there at all, Shawn! Obviously I am a big fan of video processors, and like I said, the Radiance is probably as good as it gets. My point was simply that the Radiance shouldn't be necessary to provide color correction to the display...that was JVC's job, and I am upset with them for forcing people to buy external boxes just to do something as simple as obtaining correct colors. Even if they didn't want to develop or include a full CMS, they could have at least provided a color correct preset like Sony just did in the VW-60, thus PROVING that it wasn't such a big task (when done at the projector level it is much easier than it is in an external box!) and that it didn't cost much to get the job done (look at all the improvements Sony made from the VW-50 to the VW-60 without raising the price a nickel!).

Instead, JVC's answer was the RS-2...:rolleyes:
JVC's issue is that offering a solution is akin to admitting to a problem which I doubt they wish to submit to. In all fairness, when one particular PJ has outsold most previous offerings combined why change, if I were an investor I'd expect no less. <snip> As long as their incorrectly colored PJ outsell correct colored ones JVC will not change their position and for an investor that is a correct approach....which is the only approach.
Exactly right! As long as people keep buying these units, what is the motivation to change anything? Why mess with success?
I thought the trick was to reduce the green saturation *without* excessively desaturating everything else (leaving aside the excessively ruddy faces).
Once again, Noah, screen shots do not tell the whole story. Correct colors affect all kinds of material and its effects are different depending on the palette used. You really need to see and live with a color correct display for at least a couple of weeks to understand its full ramifications. Unfortunately there is no way to get the vicarious experience otherwise.

Noah,

"The thing that strikes me about the screenshots is that it looks like I could (and I have) do the same thing by just turning down the color control."

Not really. In some shots the difference between doing that and the gamut correction is somewhat close, in others it isn't. Look at the 'Click' pictures in the background. The -15 on the color control lowers the brightness of the background compared to the gamut corrected versions and the color of the background changes quite a bit at least on screen, that doesn't show as well in the pics. Likewise if you look at the 007 picture the -15 setting he still looks orange, just not as brightly orange. Skin tone looks more natural on the gamut correction. If your browser supports tabs open each picture in a tab and switch back and forth between them.

"I thought the trick was to reduce the green saturation *without* excessively desaturating everything else (leaving aside the excessively ruddy faces)."

The Seabiscuit scenes had the full correction on them. I haven't tried just correcting green yet. The stuff on screen to me does not look excessively desaturated with the gamut correction in it.

Shawn

"For you and others who suffer from the effects of RBE, 1 chip DLP is a much worse problem than bad color."

Yup, but to me I think of people living with RBE and off colors the same way.

Some people see xyz and can't stand it. Others either don't see xyz or see it but are not bothered by it.

xyz can be RBE, bad colors, SDE, MC, etc...etc...etc.

"My point was simply that the Radiance shouldn't be necessary to provide color correction to the display...that was JVC's job"

The JVC is what it is. One can make the same argument about anything. A Crystallio II should not be necessary to provide good deinterlacing and scaling either... that was the manufacturers job. Or input sizing, input calibrations, AR changes, greyscale calibration, NR functions...etc...etc...etc. Even more so when one considers the Crystallio and the JVC run the same hardware but obviously differ in implementation.

The reason video processors exist is because projector manufacturers haven't done everything as well as is possible and external equipment can be used to further optimize the situation. Bad colors are just another area projector manufacturers have dropped the ball... there are lots of balls on the ground. The Radiance just looks like it is the first to try and pick up the color ball.

Shawn

"For you and others who suffer from the effects of RBE, 1 chip DLP is a much worse problem than bad color."

Yup, but to me I think of people living with RBE and off colors the same way.

Some people see xyz and can't stand it. Others either don't see xyz or see it but are not bothered by it.

xyz can be RBE, bad colors, SDE, MC, etc...etc...etc.

"My point was simply that the Radiance shouldn't be necessary to provide color correction to the display...that was JVC's job"

The JVC is what it is. One can make the same argument about anything. A Crystallio II should not be necessary to provide good deinterlacing and scaling either... that was the manufacturers job. Or input sizing, input calibrations, AR changes, greyscale calibration, NR functions...etc...etc...etc. Even more so when one considers the Crystallio and the JVC run the same hardware but obviously differ in implementation.

The reason video processors exist is because projector manufacturers haven't done everything as well as is possible and external equipment can be used to further optimize the situation. Bad colors are just another area projector manufacturers have dropped the ball... there are lots of balls on the ground. The Radiance just looks like it is the first to try and pick up the color ball.

Shawn

Post of the week! :cool:

I have a question re the Radiance product. My RS1 is driven by a Toshiba HD XA2 HD DVD player. I also watch some high def TV stuff - mainly sports. I like what I see re color correction, but the $4K price is making me choke, because I don't think I would have a use for anything else the product does. For example, I have no need for video switching. Would there be any other benefit to this product in a rather limited set-up like mine?

"For you and others who suffer from the effects of RBE, 1 chip DLP is a much worse problem than bad color."

Yup, but to me I think of people living with RBE and off colors the same way.

Some people see xyz and can't stand it. Others either don't see xyz or see it but are not bothered by it.

xyz can be RBE, bad colors, SDE, MC, etc...etc...etc.

"My point was simply that the Radiance shouldn't be necessary to provide color correction to the display...that was JVC's job"

The JVC is what it is. One can make the same argument about anything. A Crystallio II should not be necessary to provide good deinterlacing and scaling either... that was the manufacturers job. Or input sizing, input calibrations, AR changes, greyscale calibration, NR functions...etc...etc...etc. Even more so when one considers the Crystallio and the JVC run the same hardware but obviously differ in implementation.

The reason video processors exist is because projector manufacturers haven't done everything as well as is possible and external equipment can be used to further optimize the situation. Bad colors are just another area projector manufacturers have dropped the ball... there are lots of balls on the ground. The Radiance just looks like it is the first to try and pick up the color ball.

ShawnThe public is to blame here too. There isn't a single display, on the market or previously sold that doesn't need calibration. Calibration won't make all of them "color correct", perfect gray scale, perfect gamma, etc. however, it does improve the picture (significantly on some). Being in the calibration business, myself, along with every other calibrator in the Los Angeles/Southern California area should be booked with 3-4 calibrations a day continuously. Problem is, the people that purchase the displays don't know any better, they are totally unaware of the errors in their displays. To the uneducated populous, more, brighter color is better..... Unfortunately these people make up the 90+% of the display purchases. These are the people the displays are designed around, the marketing studies, the targeted selling price, the needed features, etc. Manufacturers are not going to spend a penny on an additional feature that they feel they can do without (read as sell the forecasted quantity or more). It's all about profits.

Myself, if just for the business I am in, would like to see full controls on every display, and every display capable of accurate calibration results. I get satisfaction out of calibrations the conform to the standards when completed.

The future is in the consumers, as they demand picture accuracy, the manufacturers will conform because they will speak with their purchases. If JVC or any manufacturer can sell all the displays/projectors they can produce, why change? They don't care about anything more than the profit. JVC has probably had more returns of projectors for manufacturing malfunctions than the number of us actively concerned about controls to produce accurate picture output.

We are fortunate that the need for video processors started with the CRT projectors and has now carried over to the new displays. Jim at Lumagen, works with the input from a lot of calibrators, this is one reason there are controls on his video processors that don't exist on other VPs. This is also the reason he is developing a CMS while the others don't. Until the manufacturers are forced by their target consumers to produce accurate displays, an external VP, such as the Lumagen will be necessary for many.

I feel it is necessary to have a Lumagen DVI/HDP/HDQ at a minimum with the RS1, just for then needed 11-step gray scale and gamma correction. Unfortunately the uncorrected gray scale is not uniform and the gray scale is different with each Gamma selection (Normal,A,B,C). This can only be corrected in the Lumagen. With my RS1, since I don't have any steps in the gray scale that go plus green, I don't see many errors in flesh tones, other than those in the source. Color decoder corrections for the source also helps.

It seems that the current focus is on contrast ratio and rightfully so. Until the RS1, I didn't see a bulb projector, at any price, that I wanted to swap for my Marquee 9500LC. I am still disappointed with the RS1 black level, with the exception it is not as critical to a little ambient light.

The public just needs to become aware they are being cheated by manufacturers, selling displays that don't and can't produce an accurate image, based upon current standards.

I have a question re the Radiance product. My RS1 is driven by a Toshiba HD XA2 HD DVD player. I also watch some high def TV stuff - mainly sports. I like what I see re color correction, but the $4K price is making me choke, because I don't think I would have a use for anything else the product does. For example, I have no need for video switching. Would there be any other benefit to this product in a rather limited set-up like mine?

Apart from the CMS the RS1 could benefit greatly from the custom gamma curves the Radiance offers. I think there would be benefit to tweaking the high-end to help or hopefully eliminate the wash-out effect sometimes noted.

I have a question re the Radiance product. My RS1 is driven by a Toshiba HD XA2 HD DVD player. I also watch some high def TV stuff - mainly sports. I like what I see re color correction, but the $4K price is making me choke, because I don't think I would have a use for anything else the product does. For example, I have no need for video switching. Would there be any other benefit to this product in a rather limited set-up like mine?You don't have much of a choice at this time, each one of your sources need different settings. You can use memories in the projector, however it is easier in the VP. The only thing that seems to be changing, price wise, is the display devices. Lumagens are basically the same price and I imagine the Radiance will hold it's price for years. Fortunately, the Radiance will be applicable to the next generation projectors and probably a few after that.

It all comes down to the picture. If it is not what you want, add what is needed or just wait till they produce what you want at the price you want. Another way to look at this, for $9K you can have a projector package that will out perform anything else on the market at triple the cost.......

Thanks Shawn.... Skin tone changes are dramatic!

kthacher
There is the hope of the 500-100$ gregr CMS box. That is if demand is great enough.

GlenC
Doesn´t the RS2 provide better gamma and grey scale controls?

The reason video processors exist is because projector manufacturers haven't done everything as well as is possible and external equipment can be used to further optimize the situation. Bad colors are just another area projector manufacturers have dropped the ball... there are lots of balls on the ground.
I have a different philosophy on this, Shawn. I believe in doing the job where it can be done best, most efficiently, and at the lowest cost, and when practical keep the components separate. I use a separate pre/pro and amps in my audio system rather than using an integrated receiver. I keep my video processing separate from my audio processing, and ideally I would like to keep all video switching/processing in a single separate box and just have basic calibration/color controls in the display device where it is done best, most efficiently, and at the lowest cost.

Now that doesn't mean that I want separate boxes for deinterlacing, separate boxes for scaling, etc., but rather I want to run just a single cable to my display device and have ZERO processing handled by the display other than what is absolutely necessary to convert the incoming, fully processed signal to light. If some manufacturer decided to market 2 versions of the same projector, one with a single HDMI input and NO processing and the other with a multitude of inputs and superior processing (like say, the Radiance built in), I would certainly buy the former and then buy a Radiance to handle all of the processing. All in one solutions very rarely handle everything best.

But still the best, most efficient, and most cost effective method of handling anything to do with the display calibration is to have the capability built into the display device itself where the LUTs can be accessed directly and are not at the mercy of format types, colorspace, bit depth, or any of several other factors which can degrade or otherwise get in the way of perfect color reproduction. Even though Lumagen seems to be well on the way with their external CMS solution, we have yet to find out if there will be any detrimental side effects from doing the job externally. Let's hope not.

And one other point - JVC did not "drop the ball" with the RS-1 colors...they hurled it to the ground and stomped on it. Accurate colors were solved many moons ago and JVC chose to throw them away. It wasn't like a new problem that they were yet to solve...;)

Post of the week! :cool:

Agreed! ;)

Shawn,

It must be my monitor, because all of the before images look generally oversaturated and all the after look undersaturated.

I'd be interested in seeing the just the green corrected (my biggest though occasional gripe at this point, I must have gotten used to complexions), but if you say the Radiance can do it that's good enough for me.

I agree the "after" shots look more correct in terms of color accuracy, but undersaturated too. Too pale.

Which is interesting as I've often found the typical ISF calibration of many displays to be a tad over-rich for my tastes (I tend to back off the color a bit). So even for me the "after" shots are looking too pale. But I attribute that to being screen shots.

I presume that the Lumagen, like any good color control, would allow you to make the colors accurate, and also let you have a more saturated, or less saturated image to taste as well. (?)

Noah,

"It must be my monitor, because all of the before images look generally oversaturated and all the after look undersaturated."

It is likely partially monitor and also just the screen shots themselves. I think overall they do a pretty good job of showing the differences but it isn't the same as sitting here swapping between the two. It really does look like a different projector, not at all subtle. Or it could simply be you like a little more saturation which is fine as well.

Probably going to get slammed for this but one other interesting perception change I have noticed... the picture seems to have more depth with the gamut control active. I'm not sure why that is but I have noticed it in a few places. Maybe the less saturated background colors not standing out as much or something?

"I'd be interested in seeing the just the green corrected (my biggest though occasional gripe at this point, I must have gotten used to complexions), but if you say the Radiance can do it that's good enough for me."

I'll give that a try and take some pictures of it for you. I assume you want Seabiscuit for those? As far as the Radiance the Gamut Control is for

Red
Green
Blue

In each color you have controls to add each other primary color independently. So in Red you can add green and add blue. One is free to set this where ever they personally like the end result of course.

The greens have been what has bugged me in the past. But now that I have skin tones *so* much better that is the improvement I am liking the most so far.

I'm not sure buying a Radiance just for this function alone makes sense. But if one was in the market for a video processor in this price range to use with a RS-1 I think the Radiance just became the very easy choice.

Shwan

Rich,

"I presume that the Lumagen, like any good color control, would allow you to make the colors accurate, and also let you have a more saturated, or less saturated image to taste as well. (?)"

You can adjust the amount of Gamut correction from anywhere between no change up to whatever the maximum amount of correction the Radiance provides. So if you wanted to pull in the reds somewhat but not as much as in the pictures above that is possible. Same for green and blue.

Shawn

"Apart from the CMS the RS1 could benefit greatly from the custom gamma curves the Radiance offers. I think there would be benefit to tweaking the high-end to help or hopefully eliminate the wash-out effect sometimes noted."

The Radiance does not yet have gamma controls in it. That is part of their parametric greyscale calibration which isn't in there yet. I think that is next up on the feature list so it will probably be in there very soon. I think they are starting with the 11 point and then later will be moving to 21 point.

The video deinterlacing may be different, the Radiance uses the newer Gennum chip. Pretty sure Jim said deinterlacing was one of the reasons they initially passed on the Gennum until the new chip came out. The new Gennum also has newer NR features including MNR and such.. those aren't yet in the Radiance either but are due after the greyscale. And it uses Lumagen's 'No-Ring' scaling of course.

It would also do all the input calibrations, sizing, AR changes (for CIH users) and so on.

Shawn

The greens have been what has bugged me in the past. But now that I have skin tones *so* much better that is the improvement I am liking the most so far.
Yeah, that's pretty much the same thing that happened to me. As time goes on you will start to notice more subtle changes in ALL colors - they just look more "right" and natural once the calibration is complete. I suspect that the next epiphany will be that the majority of sources don't have as many or as severe color problems as you had previously thought. Try watching CSI: Miami tomorrow night and switch back and forth between the modded and unmodded color schemes.

And then after a few weeks you will wonder how you ever lived without the color correction...;)
I presume that the Lumagen, like any good color control, would allow you to make the colors accurate, and also let you have a more saturated, or less saturated image to taste as well. (?)
There are standard "correct" amounts of RGB present in REC601 and REC 709 decoders. Assuming a luminance value of 100 for white, the correct values would be:

Red - 21
Green - 71
Blue - 8

for REC709, assuming that all primaries are exactly correct. When you use those colored filter gels with Avia/DVE to adjust the color control, you are very crudely adjusting the decoder to obtain that mix. A better way is to have individual RGB luminance controls to get the percentages as close to those above as possible. I assume that Lumagen will be adding those controls as well in their evolving CMS.
The Radiance does not yet have gamma controls in it. That is part of their parametric greyscale calibration which isn't in there yet. I think that is next up on the feature list so it will probably be in there very soon. I think they are starting with the 11 point and then later will be moving to 21 point.

The video deinterlacing may be different, the Radiance uses the newer Gennum chip. Pretty sure Jim said deinterlacing was one of the reasons they initially passed on the Gennum until the new chip came out. The new Gennum also has newer NR features including MNR and such.. those aren't yet in the Radiance either but are due after the greyscale. And it uses Lumagen's 'No-Ring' scaling of course.
Yup, the Radiance is quickly shaping up to be the best consumer level VP available for ANY amount of money!

And one other point - JVC did not "drop the ball" with the RS-1 colors...they hurled it to the ground and stomped on it. Accurate colors were solved many moons ago and JVC chose to throw them away. It wasn't like a new problem that they were yet to solve...;)
It's OK Bob, you can let it go. We now have a solution, and surprise of surprises even many of us that got tired of your posts on the issue will be purchasing it. You don't need to keep preaching to us in every post, you don't need to explain to us what accurate colors will look like when many of us knew what they looked like long before any one ever heard of ISF. Yes Bob, accurate colors are good. Now could we talk about the video processor, PLEASE???

7000 posts on JVC's color. It's time to get a life

And one other point - JVC did not "drop the ball" with the RS-1 colors...they hurled it to the ground and stomped on it. Accurate colors were solved many moons ago and JVC chose to throw them away. It wasn't like a new problem that they were yet to solve...;)

Good God Almighty Bob!!!

Just when I think this thread is finally getting back on the right track, with some actual useful information and discussion, you feel compelled to throw in this crap.

Jeezus. :rolleyes:

Didn't he sell that thing yet?

The folks at Lumagen plan on providing the capabilities in the Radiance, but based on the success that PMS has had, I have my doubts as to their ability to get the job done correctly...not to mention the price tag that goes with it.Yup, the Radiance is quickly shaping up to be the best consumer level VP available for ANY amount of money!PMS just made a feeble attempt to add CMS, as with many other displays that have so called CMS. We still have no idea when Jim will be able to perfect the CMS, however we can depend upon continual improvement.

We now have a solution....Well, yes and no. Have you looked at the price of a Radiance ? It is not a viable solution for those of us who can't justify spending about as much on the fix as the projector itself.

Good God Almighty Bob!!!
Just when I think this thread is finally getting back on the right track, with some actual useful information and discussion, you feel compelled to throw in this crap.

Jeezus. :rolleyes:And exactly the same thing could be said about your post Rob. Personally I think Bob is performing a great service for any new readers seeking truth and enlightenment. Keep it up Bob !

Brent

. Personally I think Bob is performing a great service for any new readers seeking truth and enlightenment. Keep it up Bob !

Brent

How much truth and enlightenment do you think they need? One more post on top of the hundreds that we have already seen? What possible difference could it make. Sheesh.

Looking over my last few posts I explained proper RGB levels in the setting of the color control, explained why color calibration is better handled in the projector rather than in a separate box, and explained why screen shots don't tell the whole story and that one needs to live with a color correct display to really appreciate its benefits.

Kerry, Mike, Rob, Tryg, and QQQ - What have YOU contributed to this thread other than to cry over the JVC comment that you didn't like?

And exactly the same thing could be said about your post Rob. Personally I think Bob is performing a great service for any new readers seeking truth and enlightenment. Keep it up Bob !

Brent

Yes of course. How could I argue with you about this? The Church of Bob is the place for anyone who wants "truth and enlightenment"!!!

The portion of his post that I responded to is just a perfect example of being very helpful, informative, and full of that "truth and enlightenment" that we all should be seeking:


And one other point - JVC did not "drop the ball" with the RS-1 colors...they hurled it to the ground and stomped on it. Accurate colors were solved many moons ago and JVC chose to throw them away. It wasn't like a new problem that they were yet to solve...;)

:rolleyes:

Looking over my last few posts I explained proper RGB levels in the setting of the color control, explained why color calibration is better handled in the projector rather than in a separate box, and explained why screen shots don't tell the whole story and that one needs to live with a color correct display to really appreciate its benefits.

Kerry, Mike, Rob, Tryg, and QQQ - What have YOU contributed to this thread other than to cry over the JVC comment that you didn't like?
What are you, 5 years old? I knew the moment I saw the announcement of the CMS feature you would jump in and drag the thread down again. In the mean time I'll be ordering one and reading posts from people like sfogg who actually are contributing something. What you have contributed is to ruin every single discussion of the issue, even to the point that people such as myself who also value accurate colors can't stand it. It used to be so fun to read discussions on issues like this here, people like you are ruining this forum. Added to my ignore list...

Holy sh*t, I just tried to add Bob to my ignore list and the software tells me I cannot because he is an admin. Talk about frustration, lol. I guess I'll just have to use my own "ignore" feature. In the mean time there are some good discussions on the Lumagen in the video processor forum that some might want to review.

For those who may be interested, it looks like Lumagen is planning a release of color primary controls on their Radiance model within a week. Should be interesting to hear the feedback.

Bob,

After monitoring the video processor forum for what seems a lifetime, I contributed this recently. Not much, but a contribution. But it's what many have been waiting to hear about. What I was halfway expecting in return was some intelligent conversation on the topic instead of the normal unrelenting dogma this thread seems to attract. And seriously, weren't you going to sell your RS-1?

Mike

p.s. Thank you Shawn for the first look.

Shawn,

"I'll give that a try and take some pictures of it for you. I assume you want Seabiscuit for those?"

I appreciate the offer, but don't spend the time on account; I've just a passing interest, as there's no way I'd spend that kind of money for the fix.

Since it seems apparent that there will be no color correction solution from JVC, and there is now a solution from Lumagen, this thread is now closed. Please feel free to start a new thread discussing the Radiance as an RS-1 solution as well as any other solutions that may arise.