I noticed in another thread that tstites from JVC has stated that JVC has a solution for the extended primary issue the RS1 / HD1 obviously has with it's colors. I didn't want to derail the other thread, but I'd certainly like to hear more about this external processor Mr. Stites is referring to in the quote below...


Before anyone jumps on the extended primary issue, the colors are being corrected with an external processor with 3D LUT.


Can Mr. Stites or anyone else comment in more detail about 3D LUT processors or the specific processor being mentioned? How practical are these devices for addressing the extended primaries and more importantly, is this 'correction' going to cost thousands of dollars and take a rocket scientist to operate?

Lastly, could Tom please explain why the extended primaries cant simply be addressed via a FW upgrade???

Check later in the post that you read that. Tom give some examples.

Basically pro-post production equipment -

Wet,

Providing an appropriate CMS in the projector itself requires more than a FW upgrade, the hardware/memory space to do the required LUT does not exist in the projector.

As I have said before, the RS1 design is fixed and will not be updated. We and others will likely show some affordable external solutions at CEDIA.

which thread was it?

Wet,

Providing an appropriate CMS in the projector itself requires more than a FW upgrade, the hardware/memory space to do the required LUT does not exist in the projector.

As I have said before, the RS1 design is fixed and will not be updated. We and others will likely show some affordable external solutions at CEDIA.
Obviously it doesn't sound like JVC is going to do anything with the RS1, but would it not be possible to add another optional primary setting or even change the existing colors via a FW update if JVC wanted to? Or is the only way to address this with a complete CMS?

Please forgive my elementary understanding of PJ design, but It just seems to me like it shouldn't be that hard to add an additional setting via FW that would get the extended primaries much closer without having to implement a full CMS... Granted, this obviously wouldn't give the user full adjustability, but I don't think that's what's needed to satisfy the bulk of the unsatisfied consumers such as myself.

BTW, thank you Tom for talking about this issue!!! :)

We and others will likely show some affordable external solutions at CEDIA.This is VERY good news.

This is VERY good news.
If affordable doesn't mean thousands and thousands of dollars, I completely agree!

Providing an appropriate CMS in the projector itself requires more than a FW upgrade, the hardware/memory space to do the required LUT does not exist in the projector.That's some good planning there... ;) Didn't anyone realize the colors were off before the design was finalized?

If affordable doesn't mean thousands and thousands of dollars, I completely agree!

...and I agree with that.

but would it not be possible to add another optional primary setting or even change the existing colors via a FW update if JVC wanted to? Or is the only way to address this with a complete CMS?

...as well as that. I've mentioned it at least a dozen times on other threads, but I'd like to know why a firmware upgrade couldn't add a picture mode with a reasonably accurate color gamut a la the Panny AE1000.

I don't have a problem with overlooking an occasionally oversaturated green due to the overall excellence of the rest of the RS-1's PQ, but with an accurate color gamut, I'd have no need to upgrade for a very long time.

...but with an accurate color gamut, I'd have no need to upgrade for a very long time.

Hmmm ... could this be one reason for a manufacturer to *not* provide one? ;)

Obviously it doesn't sound like JVC is going to do anything with the RS1, but would it not be possible to add another optional primary setting or even change the existing colors via a FW update if JVC wanted to? Or is the only way to address this with a complete CMS?

Please forgive my elementary understanding of PJ design, but It just seems to me like it shouldn't be that hard to add an additional setting via FW that would get the extended primaries much closer without having to implement a full CMS... Granted, this obviously wouldn't give the user full adjustability, but I don't think that's what's needed to satisfy the bulk of the unsatisfied consumers such as myself.

BTW, thank you Tom for talking about this issue!!! :)

Actually it IS hard - which is why few PJ under 10K have real CMS. A color control is simply gain manipulation of the color components - an amplifier in analog - a multiplier in digital. A gamut change is a 3x3 matrix transform - which requires a lot more hardware to implement. Once you add the extra hardware to do the gamut warping - then you can simplify the user interface to just choose video display standard presets fixing the transform (i.e. REC709) and thus make the hardware simpler LUT - or you can go all out with fine tune of each color to make whatever gamut you want which requires more flexible variable transform (i.e. CMS). Many under 10K do have the presets without having the full CMS - but if the hardware does not exist to do the transform - you cannot upgrade the firmware menus to enable this missing feature.

An external solution will need more than 8b video to avoid creating banding/dithering/clipping - certainly available in PRO hardware - but HDMI1.3 is just now taking off in consumer.

Of course JVC realized the colors were off - while in the PRO world it is great for the Digital Cinema space - it is wrong for REC709 work - and they know an external processor would be required. But they had to outdo Sony - which sold the promise of MORE colors and MORE contrast. And it worked with the result they had to listen to only a few of us noisy calibrators complaining about it.

Mike,

Remapping color coordinates is more complicated than just making a new picture mode or preset...if that were the case you could do it with the existing controls and save it as a user defined setting. As I said in the previous post, additional hardware is needed in the projector.

As for the colors being "off", that was a design decision the factory made for specific reasons that are unknown to me. While I would be the first to admit that they are off with respect to absolute accuracy, I know full well that the average consumer finds "production grade reference monitors" flat looking and prefers the more "vibrant" colors of consumer level TV's/Displays...one possible explanation for the choice.

Stay tuned, I'm sure we'll eventually satisfy the most demanding among you.

Cheers,

.

An external solution will need more than 8b video to avoid creating banding/dithering/clipping - certainly available in PRO hardware - but HDMI1.3 is just now taking off in consumer.

.


As long as the processing itself takes place at 10bit or greater then you can deflate the output back to 8bit with realistically minimal problem.

Stay tuned, I'm sure we'll eventually satisfy the most demanding among you.

Cheers,
By making this projector's colors better or a new model?

Providing an appropriate CMS in the projector itself requires more than a FW upgrade, the hardware/memory space to do the required LUT does not exist in the projector.Thank you for (finally) clarifying this. I wish however you had posted this earlier. A definitive statement such as yours may well have influenced my purchase decision in the direction of BenQ. I was holding out hope that JVC would ultimately do the right thing by their customers, but it now appears that is not going to happen.

I'd like to know why a firmware upgrade couldn't add a picture mode with a reasonably accurate color gamut a la the Panny AE1000. Here is my guess: The correction needs to be done in hardware. As a specific example, an oversaturated green is tamed by mixing in a little red and blue into the green channel. It is not just a question of altering the firmware to reduce the gain on the green channel. Rather, a full (3*3) matrix multiply is required. While the RS1/HD1 contains a matrix multiplier (for example in the component -> RGB color decoder), based on some posts by Greg Rogers, that piece of circuitry is on the wrong side of the gamma circuit. (Caveat – I have not been through the math to confirm the above is correct).

That said, I would be somewhat surprised if the digital video path is not implemented in an FPGA, (where the ‘FP’ stands for ‘Field Programable’) which means that, although the circuitry may not currently be capable of desaturating the primaries, it could be reprogrammed to do so (hopefully by the end user or at worst by the factory). If this is the case then stating that hardware/memory space to do the required LUT does not exist in the projector is a little sophistic. No worse though than the "Reference Series" moniker when, in fact, it is incapable of rendering reference colors.

Tom please don’t take this as a personal attack. I very much appreciate your participatation in these forums. I am merely expressing my frustration, apparently shared by a few others here, that this projector could have been so much better (in fact almost perfect) with just a relatively minor amount of extra effort in the initial design and implementation.

Brent

Any ideas on pricing yet Tom?

Gary

Tom, I second the sentiment. Thanks for the input. Sorry to kill the messenger. Your participation is greatly appreciated. I am just deeply frustrated with the colors.

The issues i've read regarding the colours on the jvc are the single reason I don't own one right now. I'm still close to ordering one, but the closer Cedia comes the less tempting it is.

Warbie
Make the decision from what you read AND what you see with your owns eyes.

Warbie
Make the decision from what you read AND what you see with your owns eyes.I agree with this approach. Here is an image from a Pearl and an RS1 of roughly the same frame. Neither projector was calibrated as I just spent a few minutes with each before I took the shots. However from what I have read I expected the green plant to be glowing in the RS1 image... I'll let you be the judge. Please don't pick apart the other differences as again neither projector was really tweaked.

http://www.homeaudiovideoadvisor.com/images/CrankP2.jpg

http://www.homeaudiovideoadvisor.com/images/CrankRS1.jpg

As long as the processing itself takes place at 10bit or greater then you can deflate the output back to 8bit with realistically minimal problem.

Only if you dither...which may get smoothed out by the LCOS panel anyways so it might work - but warping a color space simply cannot preserve the original RGB space - warping means you are skipping or merging colors.

That said, I would be somewhat surprised if the digital video path is not implemented in an FPGA, (where the ‘FP’ stands for ‘Field Programable’) which means that, although the circuitry may not currently be capable of desaturating the primaries, it could be reprogrammed to do so (hopefully by the end user or at worst by the factory).


Brent

Even if it was - FPGA's are often capacity limited - a 3x3 matrix multipliier simply takes more space - it is an RGB2RGB transform that is addition to the video2RGB transform existing in the decoder..and best done with even more bits after the RGB gamma. You cannot reprogram the originally FPGA unless you had the design code the FPGA implements anyways. Bit far-fatched to think an FPGA is user programmable just because it is field programmable....

The issues i've read regarding the colours on the jvc are the single reason I don't own one right now. I'm still close to ordering one, but the closer Cedia comes the less tempting it is.

If you have never seen a calibrated image and colorspace - then do not worry about it. You will not know what you are missing. The PJ was designed to make the average joe happy who thinks MORE color means better color.

Only if you dither...which may get smoothed out by the LCOS panel anyways so it might work - but warping a color space simply cannot preserve the original RGB space - warping means you are skipping or merging colors.


What do you think a LUT does anyway?

You go to 10bit thats 1023 code values compared with 255 for 8bit processing.
You do your processing with 1023 code values of precision to describe your colour remap. This is then deflated back to 255. Your rounding error in 10bit is greater than 4 code values before it feasibly produces a potential contouring threshold back in 8bit . Your not going to introduce additional visible banding with any reasonable colour remap. Certainly you are not going to introduce banding that wasn't already present in the original 8bit material.

Bear in mind that most chipsets these days work in 12bit or higher anyway for the processing.

Conclusion , you ain't going to introduce banding and you don't need to stay inflated at a higher bit depth after the processing.

Video processing is using increased bits internally specifically for rounding error minimize through the processing steps - you would lose data if you did math with 8b for an 8b result.

Rounding means that internally your 8.0 bit pixel gets represented as 8.2 bits internally - which helps it round up or round down and not lose precision to truncation that happens as it goes thru the chain. Hopefully you have no rounding errors in the end so 256 values in means 256 values out. Internal fractions with internal rounding means that you can have fractional values so that 8.25 + 8.75 = 17.00 rather than 16.00 that you get with truncation - only to later in the chain add with 8.5 getting now 24 rather than 25.5.

The whole point of RGB warping is instead of stepping from 16 to 17 in the original RGB space - we step from 15.8 to 16.4 so that after the warping - we still have the same number of colors. The colors are just shifted around to different fractional values so they all still fit in the native colorspace. If you round back to 8b - then you step from 16 to 16 - and that is the very definition of banding - or for other fractions you might go 16 to 18. The steps become too close or too large or not existant - which does not happen with more bits to communicate the result. You could dither by flipping between 16 and 17 to make it look like 16.4. The whole point of the RGB transform is it shifts the range of values that each of RGB can occupy - you cannot stuff 256 values back into the same 256 values - then you have not done a transform.

We are not using fractional values in a RGB transform to avoid accumulation of error during the processing - rather the fractional values are the intended ->result<- of the transform. So a video processor maybe OK rounding off 12b to 8b - but if you are doing a transform - you just defeated the purpose of what you are trying to do. By having a larger 10-12b color space that goes out to the native gamut - you can remap the subset of colors that are the translated video to the same amount of colors just a different subset to fit a different gamut.

I think designer that is planning to put a CMS into an external processor that communicates the results over 8b knows that banding/dithering/clipping will be the side impact. HDMI1.3 with higher bit support would be required. Though if you think you can market a processor with banding/dithering/clipping - maybe enough people think getting proper colors is worth it.

Tom, I second the sentiment. Thanks for the input. Sorry to kill the messenger. Your participation is greatly appreciated. I am just deeply frustrated with the colors.
I feel the same way Tom. I apologize if you find my posts offensive and redundant (and I'm sure you do), but I can't tell you how disappointed I was with my RS1. If the colors were addressable I would never have sold my PJ, but the often unrealistic colors were so distracting to us that I HAD to get rid of it. Even my wife commented about the colors the instant she saw an image, and this says A LOT! I hope JVC does come out with a reasonable solution to the extended primaries (and that it addresses CIH capabilities as well), but I fear this solution will be a several thousand dollar band-aid or a trade-off for something else. :( Let's hope JVC proves me wrong this time.

Tom,
Again, thank you for finally addressing this issue and the realities of fixing it... it's been a looonnnnng time coming. ;)

There is a lot of doom and gloom on this forum. Many people, including myself, have been complaining about the RS1 colors (and an industry trend towards blown out colors in general) and now we learn that JVC will definitely address this very soon with an external processor.

Gee, isn't this a good thing, rather than a bad thing? Let's not allow the perfect be the enemy of the good. This is great news, especially if the device is marketed by JVC as a completely separate product that can be used with any display. But even if it is RS1-specific it should make a lot of owners and potential owners happy.

There is a lot of doom and gloom on this forum. Many people, including myself, have been complaining about the RS1 colors (and an industry trend towards blown out colors in general) and now we learn that JVC will definitely address this very soon with an external processor.

Gee, isn't this a good thing, rather than a bad thing?So, you have to buy an external $1k box because JVC wanted to save $10 in parts in the projector? And this is good news?

Cant look at it like that. You have what you have right now, which is a not accurately color correctable RS1.

If an external box will take care of that problem for many of these guys, thats a good thing for them.

I agree with this approach. Here is an image from a Pearl and an RS1 of roughly the same frame. Neither projector was calibrated as I just spent a few minutes with each before I took the shots. However from what I have read I expected the green plant to be glowing in the RS1 image... I'll let you be the judge. Please don't pick apart the other differences as again neither projector was really tweaked.

http://www.homeaudiovideoadvisor.com/images/CrankP2.jpg

http://www.homeaudiovideoadvisor.com/images/CrankRS1.jpg
Ugh.... look how neon that plant is and the horrible sun burnt skin tones!!! :rolleyes:

Which ones which by the way???? :o
JVC #1, Sony #2?

I calculated some color values for a REC709/sRGB (HD) display that has had the gamut warped down to SMPTE-C to properly show a SD source. I will use Red as it is the color with the most change - being more orangy. In the case of the JVC - green is the worst - but I am too lazy to waste time calculating the custom transform matrix.

If I apply a floating point or even 10-12b transform on 8-bit RGB data and then round back down to 8-bit - a 256 step Black to Red ramp has become a 240 step red ramp with 5 steps of green mixed in. 15 of the colors are repeated causing steps in the smooth ramp. I lose another color if done in 9-bit - and again another color for those thinking to use their HTPC with 8-bit DVI. Two of these steps are in the Video RGB headroom/footroom and not visible depending on monitor/processor calibration - but most of them are visible and evenly distributed - which means they will be obvious banding artifacts.

The point is the accuracy of the transform calculation - is not relevant if you round back to 8-bit data - you WILL lose colors. Increasing the bit depth increasingly shortens the amount of the step up - you would need to be able to do a 15/16 fraction for each step up - which is impossible to do in 8-b without losing any colors. With 12-bit video out you have the ability to do the 16th fraction step so each one is even, with 10-bit video the steps are uneven but at least you have 256 colors.

I stand by my statement that HDMI1.3 with DeepColor implemented or higher bit analog output is required for an external processor- unless you care more about accurate color than you do about banding/dithering/clipping issues - but generally those that buy external processors worry just as much about the latter even to the point of hiring ISF with all the proper sweep patterns to test for these errors.

Mr.D. if you are mixing any DigitalFilms that we might watch - let us know - I don't want to watch color transforms rounded down to 8-bit in Digital Cinema and will be sure to avoid thim. Such small errors may not be visible on your monitor - but blow them up on a multi-foot widescreen - you can see them.

Mike,

Remapping color coordinates is more complicated than just making a new picture mode or preset...if that were the case you could do it with the existing controls and save it as a user defined setting. As I said in the previous post, additional hardware is needed in the projector.

As for the colors being "off", that was a design decision the factory made for specific reasons that are unknown to me. While I would be the first to admit that they are off with respect to absolute accuracy, I know full well that the average consumer finds "production grade reference monitors" flat looking and prefers the more "vibrant" colors of consumer level TV's/Displays...one possible explanation for the choice.

Stay tuned, I'm sure we'll eventually satisfy the most demanding among you.

Cheers,

Tom.... Since JVC's website has now listed a RSVP1 PROCESSOR http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/packages.jsp?model_id=MDL101681&feature_id=06
can you give any info?

"Since JVC's website has now listed a RSVP1 PROCESSOR http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/...1&feature_id=06"

It lists pj + proc at $9700, meaning the proc is $3400.

Ugh.... look how neon that plant is and the horrible sun burnt skin tones!!! :rolleyes:

Which ones which by the way???? :o
JVC #1, Sony #2?

I just watched Crank for the first time a few hours ago. I don't understand how that isn't considered *the* reference title, it was probably the best looking blu-ray I've seen. I even thumbed through POTC and thought Crank looked better.

As far as the pics, I agree, the first one looks like the RS1. I remember how detailed his scruffy beard was, and it definitely didn't look like pic #2. The 2nd image looks like a softer, less detailed image.

BTW Shamus, you forgot to point out the orange blood stains on his hospital gown :D

1. I thought that the JVC "solution" was going to be to bundle a rebadged VP50 with an RS1 and an anamorphic lens. Is this correct or is there going to be a different "solution" for people who want correct primaries?
2. The pics that are being compared are comparing one oversaturated projector with another oversaturated projector.
3. AFAIK, there is no such thing as an external box (one that affects the video signal rather than direct LUT access) that will truly fix the oversaturated primaries. I think that is what Kevin is explaining to us, am I right?

Mr.D. if you are mixing any DigitalFilms that we might watch - let us know - I don't want to watch color transforms rounded down to 8-bit in Digital Cinema and will be sure to avoid them. Such small errors may not be visible on your monitor - but blow them up on a multi-foot widescreen - you can see them.

You don't "mix" films. Film work is scanned and delivered to 10bitlog. If its just specifically my work you want to avoid then steer clear of Harry Potter , Xmen 3 , Casino Royale , Hot Fuzz , The Last King of Scotland , United'93, 10000BC, and Rome. That's just the last year's worth, to be doubly safe you should avoid all the Harry Potter films and all the bond films since Goldeneye.


This is worked at at least 16bit linear and 32bit float. When I'm working with video , again its processed at least at 10bit ( these days its usually mastered in 10bit right from the word go) and even huge colour corrections ( hugely more convoluted than a colourspace remap) result in zero additional banding being introduced on remap back out to 8bit. The rounding down to a integer code value in 8bit is no more detrimental to increasing banding than the 8bit originally exhibits.

Ugh.... look how neon that plant is and the horrible sun burnt skin tones!!! :rolleyes:

Which ones which by the way???? :o
JVC #1, Sony #2?

#2 (bottom) shows better contrast. Deeper blacks and brighter highlights.

If its just specifically my work you want to avoid then steer clear of Harry Potter , Xmen 3 , Casino Royale , Hot Fuzz , The Last King of Scotland , United'93, 10000BC, and Rome. That's just the last year's worth, to be doubly safe you should avoid all the Harry Potter films and all the bond films since Goldeneye.



Nice!

So, you have to buy an external $1k box because JVC wanted to save $10 in parts in the projector? And this is good news?

I think it's good news.

Look at it this way - JVC has produced a projector that by any reasonable measure is a very successful product. There are some people that very vocally pointed out the very real shortcomings vs other competitors, but in the end, consumers seem to still favor the JVC. After all, look how long the waiting list was for AVS, where the complaints were very prominent in just about every JVC discussion thread. I think it's fair to say that it's only a very small minority of the market that demands accurate colors and would be willing to sacrifice other things (contrast ratio, cost) for it.

JVC could have looked at those complaints, then decide to do nothing, and I seriously doubt that would have a significant impact on future sales. I don't have sales figures, but is any of the competition (in the same market) with CMS (Benq 9000/10000, Sharp 20k, etc) outselling the JVC right now?

Instead, JVC appears to be responding to the very small minority by providing a solution. Of course it will cost more, whether it's an external box or incorporated in the projector itself. I honestly don't know how much it would cost to put the solution in the projector, but I'm guessing that it'll be more than $10. It's more complicated than adding another chip: system level changes may be needed to integrate the new hardware, product development time is needed to work on the firmware, process steps need to be added to manufactoring lines, new tooling is needed, etc. All of these things cost money and delay launching the product (more money lost).

Bottom line: you can't please all of the people all of the time, but JVC appears to be trying, and they're in a better position to do so than their competitors. That's a good thing. As someone pointed out in a different thread, where is Sharp's or Benq's firmware fix to increase contrast ratio for those that are unhappy with the current performance :) ?

I-Liang

"I stand by my statement that HDMI1.3 with DeepColor implemented or higher bit analog output is required for an external processor- unless you care more about accurate color than you do about banding/dithering/clipping issues -"

What about it one used 12bit 4:2:2 on HDMI 1.0 or later?

Shawn

I have given some serious thought to the RS1 but I'm laying my hand down on the add ons with the advancements in 1080p PJ the price is too steep for me correct colors or not.

You don't "mix" films. Film work is scanned and delivered to 10bitlog. If its just specifically my work you want to avoid then steer clear of Harry Potter , Xmen 3 , Casino Royale , Hot Fuzz , The Last King of Scotland , United'93, 10000BC, and Rome. That's just the last year's worth, to be doubly safe you should avoid all the Harry Potter films and all the bond films since Goldeneye.

So which of the system engineers at Framestore are you? :).

Mike,

Remapping color coordinates is more complicated than just making a new picture mode or preset...if that were the case you could do it with the existing controls and save it as a user defined setting. As I said in the previous post, additional hardware is needed in the projector.

Thanks for clarifying that Tom. I didn't know it was a hardware restriction. I do appreciate your posting here in the lion's den. ;)

Stay tuned, I'm sure we'll eventually satisfy the most demanding among you.

Cheers,

Out of curiosity, will you have something at CEDIA?

#2 (bottom) shows better contrast. Deeper blacks and brighter highlights.

Looking at the picture names, the second one is called CrankRS1, so the second one is the RS1 and the first (CrankP2) is the Pearl.

[QUOTE=Bob Sorel]2. The pics that are being compared are comparing one oversaturated projector with another oversaturated projector.
QUOTE]

Could you post a similar pic with a non-oversaturated projector?

"I stand by my statement that HDMI1.3 with DeepColor implemented or higher bit analog output is required for an external processor- unless you care more about accurate color than you do about banding/dithering/clipping issues -"

What about it one used 12bit 4:2:2 on HDMI 1.0 or later?

Shawn

Yes - but who implemented it? more bits is what you need however you get it. Also we are talking about RGB - color correction is an RGB transform not a video transform. So you woud want 12bit 4:4:4 RGB which I think HDMI1.3 cannot even do but need to check - I though it could do only 10-bit RGB?

If you use a video processor you should output RGB - otherwise all the video decoding calibration you do on the processor is wasted on the rencode back to video for transport - then decoding video again to RGB on the display!

Could you post a similar pic with a non-oversaturated projector?Here is roughly the same image from a professionally calibrated (by Ken Whitcomb) projector one that I have never read as being oversaturated which was spot on after Ken's magic.

http://www.homeaudiovideoadvisor.com/external/avsforum/CrankSX21.jpg

This is worked at at least 16bit linear and 32bit float. When I'm working with video , again its processed at least at 10bit ( these days its usually mastered in 10bit right from the word go) and even huge colour corrections ( hugely more convoluted than a colourspace remap) result in zero additional banding being introduced on remap back out to 8bit. The rounding down to a integer code value in 8bit is no more detrimental to increasing banding than the 8bit originally exhibits.


Your experience working with higher bit masters and down converting to 8-bit is not relevant - as then you are talking about mapping 2^10 or 2^12 colors per primary down to 2^8 in that case. When dealing with consumer video chain - we start with 2^8 and increase bits solely not to have math accumulation rounding error - then go back to 2^8 - and that is mathematically provable that colors are lost not due to internal rounding/precision - but are lost due to the transform itself output as 8-bits - as proven by doing an internal floating point conversion.

In the case of the red ramp I posted above - 1/16th of the colors are lost and it will be observable in a ramp. The only way to not lose the 2^8 colors is to pick them from within 2^10 or 2^12 colors - which is why higher bit space is required - and why you work in that space for masters. The color transform in fact requires this - by its very nature of it being nearly an identity matrix - you have to lose values if you do not increase precision - because you cannot sufficiently express 'nearly' using 8 bits. 15/16th does not exist in 8-bit - it only exists in 12-bit. By definition it is a lossy transform if implemented on 8-bit video chain. Downconverting from 12-bit or upconverting to 12-bit - it is not lossy..

So I am currently calculating how many of the 16M colors you lose by taking 8-bit RGB and doing a floating point transform back to 8-bit - since you ignored already the fact that you lose 1/16th of the colors in a red ramp. It will take all weekend because I have not enough memory to do all the 16M colors at once.

Surely you did not color correct Harry Potter using an 8-bit master as the source - because that is what we are talking about - consumer video is only 8-bit masters as far as we are considered. There is no 10-12b consumer video sources - only professional video has the deeper masters. And I certainly would hope you use professional video formats in your work. We already know that the mapping from film or digital cinema to 8-bit video is lossy itself - we are not talking about that. We are talking about transforming 8-bit video back to 8-bit video being even more lossy.

Charles

The greens are much more yellow and desaturated in the last calibrated pic - you can't see the difference? It looks much more like a real california palm would - and this comes from someone who lives in the NW who knows what deep forest green looks like - and a desert palm is not deep forest green. Also do you know if that display had a fully implemented CMS for perfectly accurate primaries and decoding?

There is a better LOTR shot to compare if you want to have a closer look at greens.

Tom Huffman - time to cue up the DVD player on - you are good at the screenies.

Charles,

So, out of the 2 images from your previous post, the 2nd one was the RS1? If so, it seems blurrier than what I just watched last night (the beard detail I saw was closer to image 1. Maybe your 2nd picture was paused on a blurrier frame?

BTW - how do you take pictures of your screen? What camera settings do you use?

Charles

The greens are much more yellow and desaturated in the calibrated pic - you can't see the difference?Any differences you may or may not see are irrelevant since neither the Pearl nor RS1 were calibrated (as noted above - Please don't pick apart the other differences as again neither projector was really tweaked.). Unless you call spending a few minutes with the controls calibrating.

The point is without any calibrating the two images are well within the range of one not so oversaturated projector. Feel free to post the SAME image, as it should appear. Not two images of another subject where one of them clearly doesn't belong in a theater.

Comparing the RS1 to the Pearl is not very meaningful. It's between a PJ with poor color performance and one with extremely poor color performance. Also, I'm not sure that this particular screen shot is a good choice. Here are some more revealing comparisons. The RS1 example is on top and a color-accurate display is on the bottom.

http://home.comcast.net/~tlhuffman/color_project/comparison1.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~tlhuffman/color_project/comparison2.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~tlhuffman/color_project/comparison3.jpg

BTW, I think that JVC is doing exactly the right thing. If it is not technically feasible to fix this problem in the firmware as tsites claims, then offering it in an external processor makes a fix available for those who want it but imposes no costs or effort on those who don't care.

Charles

But there are little saturated colors in that picture other than the green palm - in fact there is very little color in that pic at all. For the most part it is a nearly B&W picture of a pasty englishman who might be a bit flush in the face already (after the movie is called CRANK!). Proving color saturation does not matter by piccing one with little color - does not really show anything....how about some WillyWonka or LOTR which has saturated colors.

Here are some more revealing comparisons.In my mind those comparisons are useless as the "bad image" is far beyond what anyone would end up with any projector after spending 10 minutes.

the "bad image" is far beyond what anyone would end up with any projector after spending 10 minutes.Ok, and you know this how?

Is it just me or do the bottom pictures look washed out?

Is the top one an RS1 and the bottom the Sharp 20k? 8)

It's just you.

Ok, and you know this how?By simply looking at the images versus the dozen or so projectors I have used. Can you honestly say that's as good as that image can look on the RS1? If so, we simply disagree and I'll leave it at that.

I stand by my statement that HDMI1.3 with DeepColor implemented or higher bit analog output is required for an external processor- What about it one used 12bit 4:2:2 on HDMI 1.0 or later?YCbCr 4:2:2 (regardless of bitdepth) wouldn’t qualify for HDMI1.3 Deep Color. It’s expressly forbidden from HDMI1.3 deep color.

Color depths greater than 24 bits are defined to be “Deep Color” modes. All Deep Color modes are optional though if an HDMI Source or Sink supports any Deep Color mode, it shall support 36-bit mode.

YCBCR 4:2:2 is not permitted for any Deep Color mode.

So you woud want 12bit 4:4:4 RGB which I think HDMI1.3 cannot even do but need to check - I though it could do only 10-bit RGB? For each supported Deep Color mode, RGB 4:4:4 shall be supported and optionally YCBCR 4:4:4 may be supported.

See above that if a source or display supports ANY HDMI1.3 Deep Color mode, then it must support RGB 4:4:4 36(12)-bit mode. Everything else (<12, YCbCr 4:4:4) seems optional.

Dave

By simply looking at the images versus the dozen or so projectors I have used. Can you honestly say that's as good as that image can look on the RS1?What I would ask is EXACTLY what control would you use on the RS1 to make it any better? BTW, the owner (who I guarantee has spent more than 10 minutes tweaking it) of this calibrated PJ claims that if anything the screenshots understate the amount of green that he sees on his screen. You can read the entire thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=863984&page=1&pp=60).

As I have said before, the RS1 design is fixed and will not be updated. We and others will likely show some affordable external solutions at CEDIA.

Getting back to this comment:
I was basically sold on a Lumagen Radiance - now I'm having pause.

Are we now expecting an actual JVC unit like Optoma offered last year with some of its projectors? Tom had posted earlier that there was going to be a package with a DVDO product (the VP50 I think) - is there something different now?

How will these "other solutions" compare to something like the Radiance (which I was under the impression would offer the type of processing needed to correct the errors we are seeing in the RS1)? Who else might be coming out with new stuff? My interest is now very much peaked to see what other stuff might be out there.

You didn't answer my question. Did you?

"Can you honestly say that's as good as that image can look on the RS1?"

If the answer is yes I disagree if and answer is no or I don't know why are you using it?

Nor did you post a correct image of Crank to compare against the rather oversaturated ones I posted. When you do we can actually see how the two compare. Until then everything else is outside of the scope (of my discussion).

Umm - looks to me like he said his white balance was off on the camera which was a greenish grayscale.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10899317&&#post10899317

Comparisons of screen shot calibrations can really only be done if auto white balance is off on the camera which is used by the same person in the same room. The point of that thread was to compare the difference done that way - even if his camera calibration was off compared to someone elses camera.


The fact remains though that the JVC has been measured by numerous calibrators to have the most excessive green saturation on the market - not green luminance but green saturation. That means you should be seeing excessive forest greens - not glowing greens. The only way to get glowing greens is to screw up the decoding in the video chain (or screenshot camera) - as the JVC has been measured for near perfect decoding by others - it is just the wrong gamut.

BTW, I think that JVC is doing exactly the right thing. If it is not technically feasible to fix this problem in the firmware as tsites claims, then offering it in an external processor makes a fix available for those who want it but imposes no costs or effort on those who don't care.
I agree with you, Tom, *IF* the external box is actually capable of moving the primaries into line without any other detrimental effects (changes in hue and/or luminance, color banding, etc.). I am still waiting for comment to know if the box is actually a rebadged VP50, because if it is, then I don't understand how that could be a solution at all. And if it isn't a rebadged VP50, then how exactly is it correcting the primaries? I don't profess to understand all this talk about bit depth, but from what I can gather from the the discussion, there just isn't enough bit depth in an external box of ANY kind to change the primaries without introducing errors in the form of banding.

It's just you.



I was just kidding about that. 8)

What I would ask is EXACTLY what control would you use on the RS1 to make it any better? BTW, the owner (who I guarantee has spent more than 10 minutes tweaking it) of this calibrated PJ claims that if anything the screenshots understate the amount of green that he sees on his screen. You can read the entire thread here.


I could have sworn he said that it looked more green than it actually was. I think you may have misunderstood him.

Your post #52, his post #57. Apparently, these were some of the worst examples. Here it is from the thread you linked:


Tom,

Part of that is the screen shot itself made everything a little greener then it looked on screen. I think the auto white balance got a little thrown off. It also looks like you used the worse looking pictures in that comparison for at least a couple of them.

Still, the greens are still too overbearing in those scenes on screen. Your shots look much better in that regard.

Shawn (Waiting for the CMS in the Radiance......)

Regardless of any misunderstanding in regard to those pictures, I do think its great that they are coming out with some kind of solution for this.

Also, Ill take some screenshots of those same scenes with color -20 and -15 and post him here to compare. It appears to me, from memory, that that single tweak alone leaves the colors looking a lot more like the bottom (properly calibrated) one.

I agree with you, Tom, *IF* the external box is actually capable of moving the primaries into line without any other detrimental effects (changes in hue and/or luminance, color banding, etc.). I am still waiting for comment to know if the box is actually a rebadged VP50, because if it is, then I don't understand how that could be a solution at all. And if it isn't a rebadged VP50, then how exactly is it correcting the primaries? I don't profess to understand all this talk about bit depth, but from what I can gather from the the discussion, there just isn't enough bit depth in an external box of ANY kind to change the primaries without introducing errors in the form of banding.
It would have to be Lumagen, not a VP50. That's my guess.

See above that if a source or display supports ANY HDMI1.3 Deep Color mode, then it must support RGB 4:4:4 36(12)-bit mode. Everything else (<12, YCbCr 4:4:4) seems optional.

Dave

OK so indeed HDMI1.3 with RGB 4:4:4 12-bit support is what you want. 10-bit is OK as well if your analog outs are doing that - which I think is the only solution on the JVC right?

How will these "other solutions" compare to something like the Radiance (which I was under the impression would offer the type of processing needed to correct the errors we are seeing in the RS1)? Who else might be coming out with new stuff? My interest is now very much peaked to see what other stuff might be out there.
Lumagen has said that they will eventually add a CMS to Radiance, and since it does not yet exist, we have no idea of whether it will be effective or not. PMS (the makers of the Crystalio 2) have already tried to help out RS-1 owners by providing true saturation controls, but they have failed. As far as I know, there is no box out currently in production that is capable of correcting the oversaturated primaries without introducing side effects, and that includes the VP50. If someone has invented a true, correctly implemented external box capable of acting as a CMS, then I will be most anxious to see it. The only person I know of who has done this is Greg Rogers, and he has stated that he will not be marketing his box due to the high HDMI licensing fees.

Also, Ill take some screenshots of those same scenes with color -20 and -15 and post him here to compare. It appears to me, from memory, that that single tweak alone leaves the colors looking a lot more like the bottom (properly calibrated) one.

Modest color control reduction decreases luminance a bit which makes the oversaturated colors appear weaker even though saturation is not changed. Larger color control reduction decreases color luminance drastically which does lower color saturation - but you have robbed Peter to pay Paul. It is still not a properly calibrated image - so don't say it is. Less annoying maybe. Correct? NO!

The color saturation of the JVC cannot be corrected with any controls on the JVC to obtain a calibrated pic.

Lumagen has said that they will eventually add a CMS to Radiance, and since it does not yet exist, we have no idea of whether it will be effective or not. PMS (the makers of the Crystalio 2) have already tried to help out RS-1 owners by providing true saturation controls, but they have failed. As far as I know, there is no box out currently in production that is capable of correcting the oversaturated primaries without introducing side effects, and that includes the VP50. If someone has invented a true, correctly implemented external box capable of acting as a CMS, then I will be most anxious to see it. The only person I know of who has done this is Greg Rogers, and he has stated that he will not be marketing his box due to the high HDMI licensing fees.


Are they any HTPC video cards supporting higher bit rates? Seems I saw that FFDSHOW had color matrix transforms in it - need to research this.....I am currently annoyed with my TheaterTek setup since RGB on the IN76 is only sRGB (HD) not SMPTE-C (SD) - so I need to do color remapping or go back to component video which has the proper choice and do video processing on the PJ.

We all need to chip in and buy the Lumagen guys a RS1 :)

Could JVC have purchased Greg Rogers' CMS system?

Your experience working with higher bit masters and down converting to 8-bit is not relevant -snip

We are talking about transforming 8-bit video back to 8-bit video being even more lossy.

Thats just fine mate you completely ignore what I said.

No, I was referring to his description of his second set of photos, the ones I use in the comparison above.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10906383&&#post10906383

You didn't answer my question. Did you?

"Can you honestly say that's as good as that image can look on the RS1?"I didn't answer it because it is unanswerable. I would have to inspect all RS1's on the market and then see if any one of them was able of producing a better image. It's not a serious question. That's why I ask how IN PRINCIPLE would one make it better? The RS1 simply lacks controls for any meaningful color adjustment. Also, I didn't use your example from Crank because I don't have that disc. I used 3 examples I already had on hand that offer a much wider color palette and which compare the RS1 to a color corrected example instead of to another color inaccurate display.

Agreed. If it's a rebadged VP50, then this all a lot of useless talk. The VP50 is no better at primary color correction than the RS1 by itself.

I agree with you, Tom, *IF* the external box is actually capable of moving the primaries into line without any other detrimental effects (changes in hue and/or luminance, color banding, etc.). I am still waiting for comment to know if the box is actually a rebadged VP50, because if it is, then I don't understand how that could be a solution at all. And if it isn't a rebadged VP50, then how exactly is it correcting the primaries? I don't profess to understand all this talk about bit depth, but from what I can gather from the the discussion, there just isn't enough bit depth in an external box of ANY kind to change the primaries without introducing errors in the form of banding.

As far as I know, there is no box out currently in production that is capable of correcting the oversaturated primaries without introducing side effects, and that includes the VP50. If someone has invented a true, correctly implemented external box capable of acting as a CMS, then I will be most anxious to see it. The only person I know of who has done this is Greg Rogers, and he has stated that he will not be marketing his box due to the high HDMI licensing fees.That's all true. If one of these manufacturers was really interested in doing this they could license Greg's technology from him. I can't see why he would object to that as it would impose no financial risk on him but on the manufacturer who is presumably paying these fees already.

No, I was referring to his description of his second set of photos, the ones I use in the comparison above.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10906383&&#post10906383

Oops I did not realize he had reposted them - the first set had a green fence second set is white fence. You sure the second set is not the other way around - the first pic in each looks like a brighter yellower green not a deeper green. Or is it that the PJ itself was just brighter?

The calculation is complete. RGB transforming an SD 8-bit RGB to be sent to an 8-bit RGB input of a HD display - 15,132,092 kept out of 2^24=16,777,216 possible colors for 1,645,124 missing colors (~10%). The banding that you see will depend on the gradient - a red ramp for example had 16 repeated colors. You can only see all the colors on a native SD display or a 12-bit RGB transform for HD display. The JVC being a much greater gamut difference than SD on HD would be worse. If I had the Digital Cinema or JVC coordinates handy I could refigure - but I think the point is adequately proved - you need higher bit depth preserved in the signal chain to preserve color qty after an RGB transform of 8-bit RGB - you cannot go back to 8-bit without loss. The calculation should be done after the gamma processing with 12-bit RGB in the PJ - not pre-gamma 8-bit video processors.

So which video&color processor is doing 12-bit output with gamma/degamma of the RGB to properly do the 3x3 matrix transform- aside from professional gear?

Oops I did not realize he had reposted them - the first set had a green fence second set is white fence. You sure the second set is not the other way around - the first pic in each looks like a brighter yellower green not a deeper green. Or is it that the PJ itself was just brighter?

Oops, me too. My bad. I left that thread at the earlier point. Those do look better than that first set, which looked like mine right out of the box.

Modest color control reduction decreases luminance a bit which makes the oversaturated colors appear weaker even though saturation is not changed.

Having a block party outside, then having to drop off some paint after. Ill try to get some screenshots up later so we can compare.

Hopefully, with that new Marantz 15s1 coming in around $7 - $8k MSRP (my guess, based on similar to TheLion's assumptions) that this add on device will not be as pricey as it sounds like its going to be.

That's all true. If one of these manufacturers was really interested in doing this they could license Greg's technology from him. I can't see why he would object to that as it would impose no financial risk on him but on the manufacturer who is presumably paying these fees already.



Didnt Stites refer to the technology earlier in this thread? It might have been some kind of a commercial device, but I think he knows what you folks are after and I doubt that he would be throwin the VP50 up in here to, try to appease, the wolves.

Didnt Stites refer to the technology earlier in this thread? It might have been some kind of a commercial device, but I think he knows what you folks are after and I doubt that he would be throw in the VP50 up in here to, try to appease, the wolves.I agree and I hope you are right. However, Bob is right that the Crystalio folks struggled with this and came up with nada. I would think that JVC has better resources in this regard.

Oops, me too. My bad. I left that thread at the earlier point. Those do look better than that first set, which looked like mine right out of the box.



Having a block party outside, then having to drop off some paint after. Ill try to get some screenshots up later so we can compare.

Hopefully, with that new Marantz 15s1 coming in around $7 - $8k MSRP (my guess, based on similar to TheLion's assumptions) that this add on device will not be as pricey as it sounds like its going to be.

Even though a scalar maybe just a memory/FPGA/VP chips and some ports (to simplify not as complicated as an optimechanical PJ for sure) - their expensive engineering to get it right combined with the very small market of AV geeks who will purchase an aftermarket processor after overcoming their self-denial about their PJ - is very very small. High NRE in niche markets means high $$$$ products. Don't forget high support costs for firmware upgrades as the AV geeks find every small flaw you missed in your video processing. So I would not hold your breath on cheap processors that get it right. Certainly there are a number of companies that churn out an annual model hoping to outdo the other guy and eventually get it right though. gregr could have done a CMS only processor - but the small number who would buy it just for that - probably would barely pay the HDMI license fees let alone the BOM and his salary!

... the Crystalio folks struggled with this and came up with nada. I would think that JVC has better resources in this regard.
Don't bet on it! They screwed up the basic Gennum implementation so I wouldn't bet on their getting an external VP right. Hopefully, they were able to buy the required technology at a price that will make it affordable.

There has been no fix for 480i or the crazy rainbow issue on black/white areas such as referee uniforms, scrolling text, etc. I'm not holding my breath for solutions to those problems either!

Even though a scalar maybe just a memory/FPGA/VP chips and some ports (to simplify not as complicated as an optimechanical PJ for sure) - their expensive engineering to get it right combined with the very small market of AV geeks who will purchase an aftermarket processor after overcoming their self-denial about their PJ - is very very small. High NRE in niche markets means high $$$$ products. Don't forget high support costs for firmware upgrades as the AV geeks find every small flaw you missed in your video processing. So I would not hold your breath on cheap processors that get it right.
I agree that this is currently true, but the big chip manufacturers will eventually add this feature, and some companies will develop their own designs in the interim, so the price will come down and the feature will eventually become common.

gregr could have done a CMS only processor - but the small number who would buy it just for that - probably would barely pay the HDMI license fees let alone the BOM and his salary!
Over the last 6 weeks or so I spent a few hours trying to find an economic model that would make this feasible. I talked to several people (some names you would all recognize - but no one connected to JVC, so you can stop that speculation) about participating to produce a CMS box. Basically I see two economic models - and neither works.

(1) The conventional model would be to produce a commercially available, standalone CMS processor for profit. That model doesn't work because within a year or two I believe many projectors will include CMS functions because all of us are raising awareness about color accuracy (hopefully most will even work after a few firmware revisions :) ). I believe color accuracy will become a "new" differentiating feature amongst projector manufacturers that are looking for ways to compete with other manufacturers that hold certain other technological advantages. Including CMS functions within a projector is relatively inexpensive and reasonably simple when it is architected into the projector's initial design. I predict we will see some good CMS functions and some "not-so-good" CMS functions (as we have already seen in several products) based on whether manufacturers really "get it" (CMS purpose and technical requirements), or they let their marketing departments dictate CMS "features" with bells and whistles thought to dazzle the average purchaser. So like most things, we should see good and bad CMS functions in projectors, but I predict that nearly all projectors will eventually have CMS functions. In addition, because some projector's will lag in implementing built-in CMS functions and some will do a poor job, some high-end external video processors will also include CMS functions. So bottom line, it's too costly for me (or the other people I talked to) to finance a standard CMS-only product because it may have too short of a lifetime to produce a reasonable return.

(2) The second economic model that I looked at was to do a one-time, limited quantity build of CMS (only) processors, essentially an AVS members limited edition product. I sort of oscillate back and forth between doing things for profit and doing things primarily for fun (limited financial return). This would have to be much more in the "fun" category to make it economically feasible. However, there is still quite a bit (10-12 weeks) of "fun" (i.e. work) left to do to provide human interfaces to make the original design useable by other people. (I would have to do additional FPGA and uP code design, and work with another person to do circuit board and package design.) In order to sell the product to AVS members it would still need HDMI and HDCP licenses and their mandated compliance test lab approvals, and FCC and CE mandated testing. These are expensive licenses and expensive testing lab charges. In addition, there are expenses for prototyping as well as the actual production costs (which would be more expensive because of the limited one-time quantity). After looking at all of that, I came to the conclusion that the only economically feasible way to execute this model would be to have a company that already has the necessary HDMI and HDCP licenses produce the limited-edition product for a modest one-time profit and perhaps some good-will. I contacted a couple of companies, but no one was willing.

Anyway, I just wanted everyone to know that I really did give this more thought, but I don't see any new solution. Thankfully, it sounds like JVC may be coming to the rescue with their own solution!

Thankfully, it sounds like JVC may be coming to the rescue with their own solution!
I wouldn't be so sure, Greg. The only external box that has been rumored to be available from JVC is supposedly a rebadged VP50, and if that is the case, then that is no solution at all. From what I have heard, JVC plans to offer the RS-1 bundled with an anamorphic lens (I don't know which one but somehow I doubt that it will be an ISCO III) and a VP50 as a higher end model for people who want to use CIH setups.

We can only hope that JVC has actually been designing and working on a standalone CMS box for the RS-1, but somehow I have my doubts...;)
Anyway, I just wanted everyone to know that I really did give this more thought, but I don't see any new solution.
Thanks for the update, Greg. So I assume that means that no one will be licensing your design either, right? What a shame, as that was probably the only chance we had of someone getting it right.

Where's Carl Hanratty Jr. ?

http://www.homeaudiovideoadvisor.com/images/CrankP2.jpg

http://www.homeaudiovideoadvisor.com/images/CrankRS1.jpg

http://www.homeaudiovideoadvisor.com/external/avsforum/CrankSX21.jpg

Thanks Charles...

To put a cap on my thoughts regarding the topic I have absolutely no doubt the colors can’t be made perfect since Greg Rogers stated such in his review. The only reason I posted the images was from the fact that I have read seemingly thousands of posts from a few individuals stating they were hopeless at best. To the point I dismissed the projector.

When I finally took a look at the projector I found within a few minutes I could produce a much better image than I was led to believe and with the right calibrator or test equipment using the tools that JVC offers I’m comfortable the RS1 could produce a fairly accurate image.

Would it be perfect? I’m guessing it wouldn’t. Would it look different than a projector with perfect color? Perhaps. Would the difference be enough that it would be noticeable to any extent during actual viewing? At this time I don’t think so which is the opposite of what I had been led to believe.

Which is why I agreed with in my original posting… “Make the decision from what you read AND what you see with your owns eyes.”

Would the difference be enough that it would be noticeable to any extent during actual viewing? At this time I don’t think so which is the opposite of what I had been led to believe.
Charles, it all depends on the quality of the source material. If you feed the RS-1 a pristine source such as the example you provided or a source where there is no way to know the "real" colors (like animated films), then the RS-1 does very well. As the quality of the source goes down, so does the RS-1's ability to present accurate, natural looking color. A couple of examples that I mention regularly are the HD-DVD version of Superman Returns and the HD TV show CSI: Miami. If you watch SR on the RS-1, most people think that it is just a bad transfer (lots of grain, actors often look like they are wearing pancake makeup, other off colors, etc.), but if you watch the same film on a color correct display the film is actually quite watchable, though it is still far from being reference. CSIM is colorized to begin with, and on the RS-1 it looks ridiculously cartoonish. On a color correct display you will find that the colorization is actually a very effective creative tool and looks wonderful - and skin tones are very good.

The same goes for a lot of the lesser HD transfers that show up on satellite and broadcast TV. The worse the transfer, the worst they look on the RS-1, but with color correct displays they don't look anywhere near as bad. So if all you feed the RS-1 are pristine HD transfers, then I agree that I wouldn't worry about the oversaturated primaries.

Also, if you don't have a color correct display to compare to the RS-1, then a lot of people would simply not know what they are missing, and sometimes ignorance can truly be bliss...;)

Greg:

Thanks for the excellent update on this issue. I am disappointed that you were unable to figure out an economically feasible way to do this, but I really appreciate the effort. I'm sure I speak for a lot of other people. Other the hand, I'm very pleased to read your assessment of what manufacturers are likely to do in upcoming models. I hope you are right.

I don't know all the rules on this but if you sold the design (from option 2 below) as a "kit" you may not need to pay licensing fees. I've seen this in the past where companies did this to sidestep certain rules or laws. In this case you aren't actually selling a working product, but someone with some basic soldering skills could complete the kit to make it a working product.

Or as a last resort you could release the schematics and bill of materials, and for those with the skills, they could build there own from scratch. Anyways just an idea to consider.

jcg

I agree that this is currently true, but the big chip manufacturers will eventually add this feature, and some companies will develop their own designs in the interim, so the price will come down and the feature will eventually become common.


Over the last 6 weeks or so I spent a few hours trying to find an economic model that would make this feasible. I talked to several people (some names you would all recognize - but no one connected to JVC, so you can stop that speculation) about participating to produce a CMS box. Basically I see two economic models - and neither works.

(1) The conventional model would be to produce a commercially available, standalone CMS processor for profit. That model doesn't work because within a year or two I believe many projectors will include CMS functions because all of us are raising awareness about color accuracy (hopefully most will even work after a few firmware revisions :) ). I believe color accuracy will become a "new" differentiating feature amongst projector manufacturers that are looking for ways to compete with other manufacturers that hold certain other technological advantages. Including CMS functions within a projector is relatively inexpensive and reasonably simple when it is architected into the projector's initial design. I predict we will see some good CMS functions and some "not-so-good" CMS functions (as we have already seen in several products) based on whether manufacturers really "get it" (CMS purpose and technical requirements), or they let their marketing departments dictate CMS "features" with bells and whistles thought to dazzle the average purchaser. So like most things, we should see good and bad CMS functions in projectors, but I predict that nearly all projectors will eventually have CMS functions. In addition, because some projector's will lag in implementing built-in CMS functions and some will do a poor job, some high-end external video processors will also include CMS functions. So bottom line, it's too costly for me (or the other people I talked to) to finance a standard CMS-only product because it may have too short of a lifetime to produce a reasonable return.

(2) The second economic model that I looked at was to do a one-time, limited quantity build of CMS (only) processors, essentially an AVS members limited edition product. I sort of oscillate back and forth between doing things for profit and doing things primarily for fun (limited financial return). This would have to be much more in the "fun" category to make it economically feasible. However, there is still quite a bit (10-12 weeks) of "fun" (i.e. work) left to do to provide human interfaces to make the original design useable by other people. (I would have to do additional FPGA and uP code design, and work with another person to do circuit board and package design.) In order to sell the product to AVS members it would still need HDMI and HDCP licenses and their mandated compliance test lab approvals, and FCC and CE mandated testing. These are expensive licenses and expensive testing lab charges. In addition, there are expenses for prototyping as well as the actual production costs (which would be more expensive because of the limited one-time quantity). After looking at all of that, I came to the conclusion that the only economically feasible way to execute this model would be to have a company that already has the necessary HDMI and HDCP licenses produce the limited-edition product for a modest one-time profit and perhaps some good-will. I contacted a couple of companies, but no one was willing.

Anyway, I just wanted everyone to know that I really did give this more thought, but I don't see any new solution. Thankfully, it sounds like JVC may be coming to the rescue with their own solution!

With respect to Greg's post, I am wondering if useful cost reductions could be realized by simplfying the design to fix just the RS1/HD1 saturation issue. In other words, it would not be a full-up CMS with a user controls. Rather it would be a "black box" with no user controls that would specifcally target the errant primaries on the JVC. (This assumes there is consistancy between different RS1s). After all, JVC owners would be the overwhelming majority of customers for such a device ....

Brent

To put a cap on my thoughts regarding the topic I have absolutely no doubt the colors can’t be made perfect since Greg Rogers stated such in his review. The only reason I posted the images was from the fact that I have read seemingly thousands of posts from a few individuals stating they were hopeless at best. To the point I dismissed the projector.

When I finally took a look at the projector I found within a few minutes I could produce a much better image than I was led to believe and with the right calibrator or test equipment using the tools that JVC offers I’m comfortable the RS1 could produce a fairly accurate image.

Would it be perfect? I’m guessing it wouldn’t. Would it look different than a projector with perfect color? Perhaps. Would the difference be enough that it would be noticeable to any extent during actual viewing? At this time I don’t think so which is the opposite of what I had been led to believe.

Which is why I agreed with in my original posting… “Make the decision from what you read AND what you see with your owns eyes.”


Charles, I COMPLETELY agree with you. I think most folks are probably like us, but I have learned, like I think Tom and others have learned, that not everyone sees the same exact image in exactly the same way.

I have subscribed to Tom's idea that color accuracy is like RBE in that you are either bothered byt it, or you arent. I believe some folks are likely easily distracted, like with rainbows, by colors being off, even slightly, and some folks dont notice it at all, as long as neither is so glaringly obvious.

The one way they do differ is that some folks actually prefer the more saturated/ more colorful looking images, whereas you couldnt say the same about rainbows.

Regardless of that though, I think we should all keep pushing for more rainbowless DLP implementations and for displays to be able to provide us with as much color correction abilities as possible, SPECIALLY when they should be able to implement it easily and without much additional cost.

It would be great if projector manufacturers came out with projectors that had little expansion slots, or memory modules, that could be universally plugged in to all of their projectors. This way they can sell their projectors more like cars, and computers, and have people pay for additional features that they need.

That way for someone who already has a processor that does enough color correction and vertical stretch, they wouldnt need to burden themselves with the additional cost for features that they dont need and the projector manufacturer doesnt have to price themselves out of a sale or not provide enough features to lose a sale.

This kind of flexibility could land the same projector SIMULTANEOUSLY in the sub $5,000 and to $10,000 or more category and maximize the utility of all the features to all of the consumers able to afford the projectors in all those price ranges.

Also, as people upgrade to other projectors they can take those same universal, to the manufacturer, plug ins to their next projector and not take as much of a loss on the total cost of the projector they are replacing. 8)

It is not that most people prefer oversaturated images - it is that most people have never watched a correct image for two weeks. Few people would switch back - including those who say they like their oversaturated colors. Even Bob Sorel who was a big Sony & JVC champion realized this when he bought a Sharp 12K on closeout for "noncritical" viewing. I await the release of a RS2 that has a CMS and everyone upgrades - and realize it looks a heck of a lot better on the REC709 preset - and leaves it there.

It is very clear by these comments that none of you have spent two weeks with a calibrated image - that includes CMS. Sure you watched accurate greyscale - but since CMS has been the domain of the 10K+ PJ - how many can claim they watched accurate colors? Very few. To continue to say colors look fine to me - just means JVC & Sony can be secure in doing what they are doing - expand the gamut with no correction capability.

Find a friend with a PJ that has a calibrated CMS in it - and swap for two weeks. It is very likely he will want to swap back ASAP - and you will not want to give it up.

Do you really believe that Sony, JVC, and any display manufacturer in the world would be preferring to put out displays with oversaturated images if what you say was actually true?

Versus this:

To put a cap on my thoughts regarding the topic I have absolutely no doubt the colors can’t be made perfect since Greg Rogers stated such in his review. The only reason I posted the images was from the fact that I have read seemingly thousands of posts from a few individuals stating they were hopeless at best. To the point I dismissed the projector.

When I finally took a look at the projector I found within a few minutes I could produce a much better image than I was led to believe and with the right calibrator or test equipment using the tools that JVC offers I’m comfortable the RS1 could produce a fairly accurate image.

Would it be perfect? I’m guessing it wouldn’t. Would it look different than a projector with perfect color? Perhaps. Would the difference be enough that it would be noticeable to any extent during actual viewing? At this time I don’t think so which is the opposite of what I had been led to believe.

Which is why I agreed with in my original posting… “Make the decision from what you read AND what you see with your owns eyes.”



Kras, how do you explain all the calibrators, industry professionals, professional reviewers, and very critical AVS forum members, who disagree with you? The manufacturers stand the most to gain from selling the people what they want and even they disagree with you.

Look at those three pictures that Charles posted above. The differences really are not that big of a deal to picture quality for most of us. I was looking for Seabiscuit in my HD/blu-rays and I guess I never bought it, but Ill get it just to be able to compare it to those screenshots at -20 color.

I probably fall into the group of most people, and if I look back at post #87 with the 3 screenshots, I clearly prefer the middle image. So if this is overstaurated, I vote for oversaturated.

jcg

It is not that most people prefer oversaturated images - it is that most people have never watched a correct image for two weeks. Few people would switch back - including those who say they like their oversaturated colors. Even Bob Sorel who was a big Sony & JVC champion realized this when he bought a Sharp 12K on closeout for "noncritical" viewing. I await the release of a RS2 that has a CMS and everyone upgrades - and realize it looks a heck of a lot better on the REC709 preset - and leaves it there.

It is very clear by these comments that none of you have spent two weeks with a calibrated image - that includes CMS. Sure you watched accurate greyscale - but since CMS has been the domain of the 10K+ PJ - how many can claim they watched accurate colors? Very few. To continue to say colors look fine to me - just means JVC & Sony can be secure in doing what they are doing - expand the gamut with no correction capability.

Find a friend with a PJ that has a calibrated CMS in it - and swap for two weeks. It is very likely he will want to swap back ASAP - and you will not want to give it up.

I probably fall into the group of most people, and if I look back at post #87 with the 3 screenshots, I clearly prefer the middle image. So if this is overstaurated, I vote for oversaturated.

jcg
To me the skin tones are very close between #2 and #3. I do see some light green missing from that plant in #2 compared to #3.... but his hand is covering some. Maybe if Charles has time, he can post an identical shot of #3 to match #1 and #2.

I think I get the problem with 8-bit to 8-bit remapping of color spaces and the problem of losing color step on a ramp

Consider this
Color space conversion from native color gamut that is oversaturated back to hd-standard. Our consumer video format is 8-bit.

1. Are there any true 10 bit color front projectors?
2 If there are such headroom with 10 bits such a projector should be able to show all or very very close to all 255 steps.

How many true bits are 1DLP projectors?
How many true bits to lcos implementations show?
Is many true color bits the strength of 3DLP?

http://home.comcast.net/~tlhuffman/color_project/comparison1.jpg



I simply find it amazing that most RS1 owners aren't bothered by the obvious differences shown in Tom's screenshot above. Those differences in color are the sole reason why I didn't follow through on my preorder and I'm sure kept many others from purchasing one as well.

smithfarmer,

Making decisions based on screenshots is not adivisable. See Charles R comments.

I simply find it amazing that most RS1 owners aren't bothered by the obvious differences shown in Tom's screenshot above.Yes, but making decisions based on the actual image is! ;)

smithfarmer,

Making decisions based on screenshots is not adivisable. See Charles R comments.
This is true and nobody should make a purchase decision based soley upon screenshots for one particular brand of pj. What we have here is an entirely different situation and is quite useful for comparisons.

Edit: mikela8, you may have misinterpreted my post or I wasn't clear enough on what I was trying to convey. I didn't actually rely on these shots to make my decision, they are just a prime example of the RS1's color inaccuracies when compared to a pj that is capable of accurate color.

Is the snow meant to be blue in the bottom pic?

smithfarmer,

The shots can be used notionally, however, the rocket scientist in me says there are a lot of variables that are not specified.

To me the big difference is #2 seems to be brighter, have more pop and 3D to the image, plus it seems way more detailed than #3.

jcg

To me the skin tones are very close between #2 and #3. I do see some light green missing from that plant in #2 compared to #3.... but his hand is covering some. Maybe if Charles has time, he can post an identical shot of #3 to match #1 and #2.

I think I get the problem with 8-bit to 8-bit remapping of color spaces and the problem of losing color step on a ramp

Consider this
Color space conversion from native color gamut that is oversaturated back to hd-standard. Our consumer video format is 8-bit.

1. Are there any true 10 bit color front projectors?
2 If there are such headroom with 10 bits such a projector should be able to show all or very very close to all 255 steps.

How many true bits are 1DLP projectors?
How many true bits to lcos implementations show?
Is many true color bits the strength of 3DLP?

All PJs need higher bits at the panel because video is a log companded format - it needs expanded using a power curve (gamma curve). You would lose even more bits if you tried to scale that power curve to fit into 8b. Keep in mind DLP is PWM not PCM coding - so it really does not have bits at the panel itself. So even if 3chip DLP vs. 1chip DLP both have a 10bit buffer to the panel s you have more bandwidth in each panel to process a single color rather than relying on the wheel to do it and have to show all three colors sequentially. More time in PWM means more color details.

smithfarmer,

Making decisions based on screenshots is not adivisable. See Charles R comments.

Which is why we have calibration standards for measuring color. Anyone that thinks the JVC conforms to REC709 color gamut is deluding themselves. It is not correctable with controls available on the PJ. It amazes me that people are still arguing about if it is correct or not. Looks good to me is entirely different issue - what is the comparison and experience level of those saying that.. Looks good in screen shots that have no saturated colors, or have unknown camera calibration is pointless.

Spend a few weeks with a calibrated color PJ - you will see and appreciate the difference and realize that quick comparisons like screenshots really do not have the capability for you to appreciate the difference. If you want to rely on those selling the JVC or those calibrators selling a scalar to tell you it looks great - but calibration science is objective - either it measures in conformance to standards - or it does not. There is nothing subjective about how that measurement is made.

catdaddy
I dare you take my challenge - but you will likely not because eating crow is not very tasty. I say you will change your tune after two weeks with a calibrated CMS PJ. You may not like the rainbows of a DLP - but that is a different issue. CMS can be implemented on LCOS just as well.

Greg:

Thanks for the excellent update on this issue. I am disappointed that you were unable to figure out an economically feasible way to do this, but I really appreciate the effort. I'm sure I speak for a lot of other people. Other the hand, I'm very pleased to read your assessment of what manufacturers are likely to do in upcoming models. I hope you are right.I must admit that I hope by saying it (often and not just here) that it will also help prod manufacturers to do it. I've been publishing primary and complementary color charts and talking about color accuracy for a long time, but it historically hasn't been given much weight by most reviewers, and certainly not by many manufacturers. Sharp and Yamaha (I wish they would re-enter the front projector market) are/were exceptions. I think many manufacturers believe that the average buyer prefers exaggerated colors, at least when making initial buying decisions (much like you see RPTVs with grossly high color temperatures to attract attention in retail stores), and therefore they will sell more projectors. Some manufacturers even feature the fact that their primaries are oversaturated by showing CIE diagrams in their advertising, which I think proves this point. But with a correctly designed CMS and well chosen primaries, the manufacturers could have it both ways. They could have oversaturated primaries for the "average" viewer, and still allow correct (and reasonably calibrated if they wanted) colorimetry for video enthusiasts. And as Kras has said, once you view correct colorimetry for a few weeks I think most people would not choose to go back.

I think that the discussion about whether there is a problem to certain sets of eyes, or not, is moot and clouding the issue at hand. Using an unbiased measure, no matter what you prefer, tells us that the the RS1's primaries are off...in the end there is no really no discussion left to be had here... (And let's not forget...JVC, through Tom, has actually admitted that there is a problem...take a moment folks, this is amazing...there aren't many other manufacturers, especially at this price point, who take the time, or even the interest in participating in discussions on forums such as this...I can't remember the last time...say Epson, Panasonic, or Sony, for that matter, was here participating in discussions about stuff like this).

What is exciting is that Tom has hinted that there are possible solutions in the works. Will these be expensive? Possibly...but remember that adding a VP to a system doesn't just give you a hypothetical CMS, but also all of the other great benefits of having a VP. People have been using them for a long while to address short comings in displays. If our displays were all perfect there would be no need for VP's :)

I for one, having lived with a VP for "two weeks :)" would never go back to live without one.

I've been following this thread closely and it seems we are rehashing old arguments that have been had multiple times before. The RS1 is still a breakthrough unit and is bringing a level of performance to a great price point for the first time. Life is full of trade-offs and one of those for the RS1 is undoubtedly the inaccurate primaries - but if we are now hearing rumors of commercially available solutions targeted at the home theater market - then I, for one, am excited to see what's coming down the pike.
Rant over :)

(flame suit on by the way...)-

vigga,

I couldn't agree more. I have had the RS1 for about 2 weeks now and am quite pleased with it's performance OTB. I do, however, want accurate colors. I have not measured the primaries but suspect that they are similar to what has already been measured. The "real" question for me is how effective will the external color gamut implementation be i.e, will side effects be a distraction?

Screenshots are notoriously inaccurate for showing problems but the ones in this thread are pretty shocking. With all due respects to Tom, whom is DEFINITELY one of the good guys, I can't believe JVC is not fixing this problem. I was all set to pull the trigger on the RS1 but who can live with this if you really don't want that extra box?

Bummer!

catdaddy
I dare you take my challenge - but you will likely not because eating crow is not very tasty. I say you will change your tune after two weeks with a calibrated CMS PJ. You may not like the rainbows of a DLP - but that is a different issue. CMS can be implemented on LCOS just as well.


If I didnt notice rainbows, would you challenge me on that, too. 8)

I dont know about taking down my PJ and swapping, but Ill challenge you to come down to Austin and calibrate my display for me, to see if I like it better or not. Im not afraid to like it better, though, Im always tweaking all of my TVs/display devices to find better settings.

Even if I did prefer the pinpoint accurate colors over my current settings, it still wouldnt be enough to overcome the belief that there is no way on earth that the electronics industry doesnt now already know what most people prefer about colors and display devices.

I hate to disappoint you, though, but, I wouldnt be eating crow, either way. 8)

I never said I preferred oversaturated images. All I have been saying is that pinpoint color accuracy is NOT required for an image to look good. Several professional calibrators, industry professionals, and reviewers have given glowing reviews of the RS1 and I would wager most of them didnt have pinpoint color accurate images to look at on their RS1s.

Whether you believe its because of lack of experience with accurate color displays, or because of personal preferences, people like Charles, myself, and many many others, are very happy about our not pinpoint accurate colors on our RS1/HD1s.

Personally, I dont like the (too) oversaturated colors myself. I know some of you guys were in shock when I said I turned the color setting down to -20. I like the colors to look more normal, I just have never believed that colors need to be 100% pinpoint accurate. Just like with Charles, there is absolutely nothing objectionable to me about the RS1 with its colors toned down with the color setting.

Everything looks realistic, beautiful, and pleasing to me.

Now, do you REALLY believe that display manufacturers dont know how most people like to watch movies? I dont believe that display manufacturers would sell displays oversaturated IF they knew that people would prefer pinpoint accurate colors. I would also wager that most projectors sold dont involve their buyers first experience with display devices.

As I have said above, I would bet that Sony, JVC, and other electronics manufacturers and even movie studios know with a very high level of certainty how, pertaining to colors, MOST people prefer to watch movies at theaters and at home.

I think many manufacturers believe that the average buyer prefers exaggerated colors, at least when making initial buying decisions (much like you see RPTVs with grossly high color temperatures to attract attention in retail stores), and therefore they will sell more projectors. Some manufacturers even feature the fact that their primaries are oversaturated by showing CIE diagrams in their advertising, which I think proves this point.

I would buy this argument if I thought that people only bought ONE TV, or projector, and kept it for life. Besides, the average user probably doesnt even stand, listen, and understand (long) enough to even look at CIE diagrams when at retailers.

I would think if those diagrams were put in there for anyone it would be for those who understood what they meant, and those people would be sophisticated enough to know what they were for. I think that is an indication of them KNOWING what most of their market wants.

Looking at very recent history, the Ruby, the Pearl, and the RS1/HD1 have been very successful. I dont believe any one of them was capable of being pinpoint color accurate.

Regardless of what we believe the evidence, or common sense, reveals to us about manufacturers and their knowledge of consumer preference for their products, I am just as curious to see what JVC has in store for us.

In my 30 year plus experience watching movies and TV, personally, Ive never been unable to adjust colors to my satisfaction with whatever color controls were provided with any display device that I have ever owned.

I've got a calibrated panny 32" hd-crt, 42" hd-plasma and I have compared the colors of my RS1 against them and after a few mild tweaks (to the RS1 from OTB) the difference is not that noticably different. I still think that there must be variant differences from each unit produced. I don't have the loud fan noise or color issues that others here have said they hear and see. I don't doubt what they see or hear but everyone I've had over to compare all three systems said they are very very close in color. Maybe I am lucky, or maybe me, my family and friends are quite color blind and deaf.
I only did this test to confirm my own opinion and sanity. I am sorry that some here seem to see/hear some huge issue but I don't. IOW, anyone wanting to buy one of these units should check it out with their own two eyes and ears and not rely on some of the opinions of others here and I mean that with no disrespect.
My $0.02
BTW, did I say I love my RS1, even though I know its not 100% perfect (maybe 97%) ? Best bang for the buck ever! :)

In my 30 year plus experience watching movies and TV, personally, Ive never been unable to adjust colors to my satisfaction with whatever color controls were provided with any display device that I have ever owned.


I would wager these were never really pinpoint color accurate, but accurate enough for me. 8)

I've got a calibrated panny 32" hd-crt, 42" hd-plasma and I have compared the colors of my RS1 against them and after a few mild tweaks (to the RS1 from OTB) the difference is not that noticably different.

Bingo.

For those that think that the Crank pic is a reference color image - think again. It actually has only very little color - with only the highlites of the palm tree being max green - but there is not enough of it for you to truly see the color difference there.

Everything else is too pale or too dark to discern any color differences if they exist - simply because the colors are weak to begin with. Here is an image processed version of it that compares the colorfulness (C of CIELCH standard colorspace) of each pixels color against the maximum colorfulness possible for that color.

http://krasmuzik.biz/reviews/cranked.jpg


Here is the RS1 version...still think there is little difference in the palm?

http://krasmuzik.biz/reviews/CrankRS1.jpg

The cowboy pic clearly has something wrong - the colors in the bottom one are fairly muted - but clearly goosed in the top one. I think we are actually seeing decoding errors not gamut errors - because the greens are clearly brighter in one than the other - which is the usual error made in SD vs. HD transcoding.

http://krasmuzik.biz/reviews/cowboy.jpg

ditto for the grass behind the fence...

http://krasmuzik.biz/reviews/fence.jpg

As for the colors being "off", that was a design decision the factory made for specific reasons that are unknown to me. While I would be the first to admit that they are off with respect to absolute accuracy, I know full well that the average consumer finds "production grade reference monitors" flat looking and prefers the more "vibrant" colors of consumer level TV's/Displays...one possible explanation for the choice.


I dont think Tom was owning up to any "problem." I think he was just addressing what has been harped on by a few in re "absolute accuracy" of the colors.

Note, KNOW FULL WELL versus BELIEVE.

Kras, I can see what you are saying about the palm trees.

Looking at those "negatives", specially the bottom 2 Crank ones, it looks like the RS1 is putting out a lot more detail/grain and that other PJ, is that the 20k?, looks a lot more processed/digital. Its even noticeable in the other comparison shots.

After looking at the crank "negatives," and back at the color shots, I can see some of that grainy look of the RS1 all over that picture. Thats the same kind of grain I see at the movie theaters in Transformers and in my HT with Batman Begins and Eragon.

Keep in mind these are compressed jpegs - one clearly has more jpeg blockiness than the other - that can purely be compression ratio - I have no idea. For the dither to show up - it has to be random colorfulness variations. Maybe the jpeg compressed the chroma channels more in one than the other - letting film grain thru on one - flattening it on the other. I used the crank pic marked SX21 as the reference one - the last one in Charles pics.

These processed versions show how much off colors stick out - once you spend the two weeks watching calibrated pics and learn what they should look like. In the RS1 version - the palm tree sticks out of the background and seems unreal to me just as in the image processed version - it amazes me that people think there is no significant difference...While his face looks about the same in all the pics - in one the palm seems to be just set background - in the other it looks like a digital cartoon - like it was added after the fact.

It seems like some of you guys still only see things in the extremes. Like there is no room for a middle ground. To you guys, "inaccurate but pleasing/attractive" doesnt seem to exist.

We arent saying we dont see a difference, we are just saying if we see a difference its not glaring, it looks realistic, and that the image looks amazingly beautiful.

How else can you account for this:

it amazes me that people think there is no significant difference...

I simply find it amazing that most RS1 owners aren't bothered by the obvious differences shown in Tom's screenshot above.

and this:

At this time I don’t think so which is the opposite of what I had been led to believe.


I've got a calibrated panny 32" hd-crt, 42" hd-plasma and I have compared the colors of my RS1 against them and after a few mild tweaks (to the RS1 from OTB) the difference is not that noticably different.

I dont think any of these folks, or Tom, or yourself, is trying to be deceptive. Its just a difference in perception on the same exact images.

To me, the only way that I can accept your (Tom's, and others) arguments (that seem grossly exagerrated to us) at face value, without exagerration/deception, is to believe that people really do see things differently, in a similar manner that some people see rainbows and others dont. I believe that you and Tom, and others, are really sensitive to the slightest inaccuracies.

I noticed a difference in tone from Tom H towards those who are likely not sensitive to the lack of absolute (I like Stite's choice of words) color accuracy when he thought up the RBE analogy and I hope you guys noticed the absence of disbelief (about what you guys were seeing) in my posts, that I had previously felt up until that point of realization.

Keep in mind these are compressed jpegs - one clearly has more jpeg blockiness than the other - that can purely be compression ratio - I have no idea. For the dither to show up - it has to be random colorfulness variations. Maybe the jpeg compressed the chroma channels more in one than the other - letting film grain thru on one - flattening it on the other. I used the crank pic marked SX21 as the reference one - the last one in Charles pics.All of your guesses are wrong. The jpegs were created equally. The blockiness along with what you think is dithering is actually the result of the projector's resolution.

These processed versions show how much off colors stick out - once you spend the two weeks watching calibrated pics and learn what they should look like. In the RS1 version - the palm tree sticks out of the background and seems unreal to me just as in the image processed version - it amazes me that people think there is no significant difference...Regarding the differences of the plant. The Pearl is clearly a darker image across the board. The SX21 projector is of much lower resolution and contrast. Which accounts for the differences between the two "x-rays" However since only one of the projectors was calibrated I wouldn’t draw any conclusions.

While his face looks about the same in all the pics - in one the palm seems to be just set background - in the other it looks like a digital cartoon - like it was added after the fact.To my eyes the difference between all three images are clearly the skin tone. Which is very easy to spot, as it's more or less a known commodity.

OK,

We all know that 255 colors cannot be mapped down to 235 colors and then back to 255 without losing some steps, if we use a full ramp.

But, how often do images use a full ramp?

Would it be possible to have a processor keep all colors mapped sequentially for each color in a certain area without noticeable issues?

For example, let's say the PJ displays a 235 green as a perfect 255 color, and there was a picture of a palm frond that had green going from 255 to 225, could all those colors in that area just be mapped from 235 to 205, so that there was no banding in that area? Then the highest extreme would be accurate, and the others would be possibly closer than otherwise, even if not entirely accurate?

In another area of the screen, the highest green might be 195, and it could be mapped to the closest counter part, which might be 185. Then the colors from the source in the range of 195 down to 125 might be sent ot the pj at 185 to 115.

Another area might have greens from 42 down to 15, and they could be sent to the pj as 42 to 15.

Also, if these were the colr ranges of green used in a certain image, in the same area, then the three different mappings could even be used in the same area.

Just a thought. And I realize it is pretty crude, but with some parameters to control the adaptation, I would think shimmering and stuff like that could be minimized.

Basically, it could be the color mapping analogy to the adaptive iris for CR.

The biggest obstacle would be not knowing what colors were coming up next, so the best implementation might be from a display device that had a buffer of some sort, so that it would not paint itself into a corner?

Heck, a DVR has the entire movie in it. A similar device could save a remapped image from an entire movie, and then display it....

Again, just a thought.

If something like this is not done, i really do not see how the color banding can be side stepped.

I really do like the image on my RS-1 overall. I also think that I am more sensitive to red than some other people.

From my watching, I do think that the RS-1 would be fine if all source material were similar or close to standard. However, it seems that I have to adjust teh color settings every other movie, because of the differences (or inaccuracies...) in the different movies.

The compounding of the inaccuracies in some movies with the inaccuracies in the RS-1 is what pushes me out of the "it's just fine the way it is" crowd.

Finally, I do appreciate Tom Stites coming out and saying that the RS-1 is cooked and has a fork stuck in it. At least I can stop wondering about a fix that is not going to come.

I do hope someone comes out with a reasonable improvement. Persoanlly, I really do not need perfect color, just colors that are not too extreme at the extremes, without getting all my friends mad at me for having to play with the colors all the time.

The RS-1 absolutely kicks the butt of my LT-150 in so many ways, but I think that I prefer the reds not going to real red in the LT-150 (which I noticed often while watching the LT-150, and never really got used to) to having the reds overpowering.

I really like the RS-1 overall, and I am very impressed that JVC has come out with a such a projector, but IMHO, they really did drop the ball in this one area.

Best Regards,
Doug

To my eyes the difference between all three images are clearly the skin tone. Which is very easy to spot, as it's more or less a known commodity.

I agree. Im no expert in this field but the main difference in those pics are the skin tones in #1 are clearly differnt than #2 and #3. I actually guessed #1 to be the RS1 because of the colorful face compared to the pale one.

My thinking about a 10 bit color projector was that it has the possibility of placing 255 steps in 1024 positions along some curve. I was speculationg that color space conversion color ramp steps loss could be avoided by using some other of those 1024 positions after the color space conversion.

Which looks better color correct wise, HD or SD. If one is better than the other I hope posted images come from the best color space.

I’m going to leave the topic with this analogy. What you are attempting to do with non-calibrated images is the equivalent to randomly focusing a projector and then complaining the image isn’t sharp.

Without calibrating (to the best of their ability) each projector and viewing them in person any differences you may or may not see will be far more influenced by the circumstances than the actual less than perfect colors of the RS1.

As such stating how large or how small of an issue exists based on these images is misleading at best.

http://home.comcast.net/~tlhuffman/color_project/comparison1.jpg


What movie is this????

My thinking about a 10 bit color projector was that it has the possibility of placing 255 steps in 1024 positions along some curve. I was speculationg that color space conversion color ramp steps loss could be avoided by using some other of those 1024 positions after the color space conversion.

Which looks better color correct wise, HD or SD. If one is better than the other I hope posted images come from the best color space.

Well,

I would think that the 10 bit color mapping is also supposed to adhere to a standard. A certain number is supposed to give a certain amount of one of the primary colors in a certain pixel.

In order to map without banding, you would have to have to transform to a different ( new, unique, in a way that cancels out the inaccuracies of the RS-1) color mapping, and then have the RS-1 transform these numbers to amounts of color that are what was intended in the source material.

While it might be possible for some reason, it would seem that it would not be possible, since this is the same thing that they can not do for the 8-bit colors.

Just a thought, I wonder if they could ditch a lot of the stuff in the RS-1 and then have memory/power to do a proper 8 bit color space. If the colors were closer on the HDMI port, I know that I would not need any component or 10-bit color inputs. I doubt that I am the only one to feel that way.

One thing I hear loud and clear, though, is that JVC is done with the RS-1. I expect nothing more from them than what I have already got. I really like a lot of things about it. Having to fiddle with the color controls for roughly every other movie is not one of them.

Hopefully they will not make this judgment call in the same way again.

Best Regards,
Doug

deleted - see post 131

Catdaddy

CIE LCH is founded on psychovisual perception models - which means that while there may be individual variance - overall we stastically see things the same way - as compared to a dog - with the only real exception being 10% of colorblind males -which is usually a red blindness - not a green.

The problem is - unless you have had experience with the reference version of the image - you don't know where to look. If you simply watch a color calibrated picture for two weeks - the differences glare out at you - because you finally have realized that decades of pushed color TVs was not just the way video is - but in fact the TV's fault. You do not need to be a calibrator to experience this - something a calibrator knows simply because his customers usually call back a few weeks later saying I had no idea video could look this good.

Dismissing the differences just means you refuse to see it - a psychosales technique of not being critical of your recent purchase. Buyer bias can be extremely strong. Calibrators generally do not let themselves get blinded by buyer bias - though some indeed do. Which is why you rely on sensors to say how far off is it - it just may take the buyer longer to resolve the conflict that the sensor says something different than what they bought it for. The sensor is not measuring things you cannot see - it's very model is to measure human visual perception. If the sensor saw it - you can see it. The only question is why you are dismissing it.

Charles
You are missing the point - any color differences in that picture beyond the palm tree are due to grayscale calibration differences. I don't care about compression artifacts - that was not the point of the image processing. The point is there are no strong colors - it is the worst picture to be using to prove the JVC does not push colors - yet you put it up as an example of reference video it produces - and I was still able to find part of the picture that is not reference - the only part that had strong colors. You cannot say it is because there is no color calibration - the point is the JVC has no color calibration - that difference cannot be fixed. The image processing specifically was designed to remove any issues of resolution and contrast - it is only looking at the strength of color - and color has lower resolution and it has no contrast. The SX21 pic has less strong shades of green in the palm tree than the RS1 which is mostly intense green - that is why the image processing lights up the palm tree - it goes by the depth and intensity of color only - not contrast and resolution.

What movie is this????Seabiscuit, and the top image looks like it's from a RS1 based on the extended green compared with the lower image. BTW, does anyone else think the mountain top snow looks kind of CGI-ish?

Edit: My observation looks redundant in the light of the extended discussion of this topic. I'd love to have the cinematographer chime in here as to which image is closer to his intention. The upper image does look closer to what one would see in the early spring in the Rockies.

Dan

That is not seabiscuit - that is the recent cowboy movie that Kevin Costner produced, directed, starred, hired his friends, etc.

ummm...this is Seabiscuit....Chapter 2 I believe.

My thinking about a 10 bit color projector was that it has the possibility of placing 255 steps in 1024 positions along some curve. I was speculationg that color space conversion color ramp steps loss could be avoided by using some other of those 1024 positions after the color space conversion.

Which looks better color correct wise, HD or SD. If one is better than the other I hope posted images come from the best color space.

In the example of the red ramp - instead of stepping up by 1 or 0 which shows only 240/256 of the colors after the RGB transform - you would instead step up by 15/16th in 12-bit - you are showing 256 colors out of now 16x256 colors. The point of the larger colorspace is not to show more colors - but to be able to fully support multiple colorspaces each with different definitions of RGB. [255 0 0] is something called "maximum Red" that is different in each colorspace - SD/HD/native all map to different CIE coordinates - even though the RGB has the same coordinates. RGB is an abstraction that must include which colorspace it is intended for - and transformed if displayed on alternate colorspaces.

ummm...this is Seabiscuit....Chapter 2 I believe.

Looks like Robert Duvall in a cowboy hat and leather gloves to me...who took it they would know for sure!

Nope, Chris Cooper...

Seabiscuit, and the top image looks like it's from a RS1 based on the extended green compared with the lower image. BTW, does anyone else think the mountain top snow looks kind of CGI-ish?

Edit: My observation looks redundant in the light of the extended discussion of this topic. I'd love to have the cinematographer chime in here as to which image is closer to his intention. The upper image does look closer to what one would see in the early spring in the Rockies.

Dan

If someone knows how to snap a jpeg from a decoded mpeg stream - an HTPC could give the reference image that is identical to that on the DVD. Screen snapping is not the same thing - I mean to get the actual YCbCr data that composes the frame. You would still need to do the SD vs. sRGB/HD RGB transform on the data at your display correctly though - computers usually assume sRGB which is the same as REC709 HD. The banding/dithering caused by doing that in 8-bit is a side discussion compared to asking what is the colors depth and brightness (which is what my image processing highlites). You can afford to lose a pixels color here and there and still be able to answer that question.

Kras,

I dont believe there is any reasoning with you. 8)

There appears to be an implied, if not sometimes explicit, condescending tone in most of your posts. Whether you show frustration becaue you believe it is beneath you to have to explain simple principles"again" to a newcomer (when they can just use the search function and theyll see where you had said it before .. and you werent just saying it for your own good but rather because you wanted to help educate the ignorant masses .. "but please dont make me have to keep repeating myself, though its good that you gave me something to post about because Im tired of beating my head against idiots talking to them about colors and the RS1"), or just someone less knowledgable than you, when they ask for help about a setup they are contemplating or when you want to argue that an image is either pinpoint accurate or its like Charles put it, "that they are hopeless at best."

Personally, when I watch a movie, or TV, the last things I want to be thinking about are Pavlov's dog and psychovisual perception models.

You seem to be under the incorrect, and seemingly self-serving, impression that there is only one correct/preferred way to watch videos/images. You almost sound like, and remind me of, the stereotype french food critic, this comes to mind because my kids and I recently watched Ratatouile, who believes that he has the preeminent (and only correct) understanding and knowledge of what makes something taste good. 8)

The fact is countless, likely more knowledgable, professional calibrators, industry insiders, professional reviewers, serious hobbyists, color knowledgable enthusiasts, large consumer electronics manufacturers, and the vast majority of purchasers of video display devices and equipment apparently disagree with you.

While you are able to point to your personal experience, and certain individuals who can support your theory, there is incontrovertible empirical evidence that is not kind to you.

You dismiss what has been posted on several threads by several professional calibrators (your peers), and obviously knowledgable hobbyists, and insiders as incorrect, biased, or an inferior understanding to the only correct and scientifically backed philosophy on the complete necessity of absolute color accuracy to an image's ability to look good ... YOURS. 8)

Anyone who disagrees apparently is either close-minded, ignorant, naive, subject to buyer's bias, blind, deaf, inexperienced, or clinically brain dead. 8)

Kras,


Personally, when I watch a movie, or TV, the last things I want to be thinking about are Pavlov's dog and psychovisual perception models.

You seem to be under the incorrect, and seemingly self-serving, impression that there is only one correct/preferred way to watch videos/images. You almost sound like, and remind me of, the stereotype french food critic, this comes to mind because my kids and I recently watched Ratatouile, who believes that he has the preeminent (and only correct) understanding and knowledge of what makes something taste good. 8)



Catdaddy67,

I think you have an incorrect analogy. I agree, criticizing food is very subjective. However, color calibration and color correction is not.

The purpose of a display (TV) is to not add or take away anything from the original source material. Having improper color calibration adds/removes color fidelity. This is the reason why photographers, printers, videographers spend so much time getting color calibrated correctly. There is a right and a wrong way to do this.

Of course, this does not mean that one cannot enjoy an oversaturated display.

Catdaddy

you continue to repeat that countless calibrators disagree - while you seem to include gregr's on review in that category - I am happy knowing that gregr agrees that the JVC colors are nowhere near the REC709 specification - even to the point that he considered marketing a CMS box. You can continue to misintrepret his reviews if you want, but I will leave it to him to characterize your misrepresentations. But I like he and others - will continue to write about this topic - the only way the industry will change is by hilighting that they need to change. The ISF has been very successful in working with manufacturers to have a place for grayscale presets - but has not been so successful about color decoding and color gamut education.

There is absolutely nothing subjective about color decoding and color gamut - they are SMPTE standards for video. It is not that I prefer an undersaturated gamut - it is that SMPTE says that is what is required to reproduce the video. When SMPTE Digital Cinema says a larger gamut is required - I am all for future home video supporting this format - and will then be posting about undersaturated displays that do not conform to it - using the same measurement and analysis techniques that I do know will work just as well as they have for the last half century - only the sensors have needed upgrading - the science itself has not changed.

Also ISF does not teach the advanced color science and video engineering -you are mistaken if you think they do. So just because an ISF tech thinks it looks good to him - just means he has not learned his color science yet. ISF is more about getting color/tint video controls right - the advanced part is in getting the grayscale correct. Even Tom Huffman has only recently learned color science - which is why he has been posting recently about it. Usually it takes new ISF calibrators years to learn there is way more to this than they learned in the seminar.

There are many ISF techs that have no clue what any of this is about because they have no background in color science and video engineering. So nice try at suggesting they must be more knowledgable because they think the JVC is a reference display - reference grayscale, reference contrast, reference resolution - sure - but it does not have reference color in any way you try to pretend it does. But apparently since you think that the Joe Blow is more important - maybe you should start to critique the JVC for having a D65 preset - when Joe Blow says 10000K blue-greys is what he wants to watch.

I suggest you stop repeating that as you are going to look damn foolish in the video processor forum when you finally realize you are wrong - and you are asking which video processor does RGB gamut mapping properly. That is the whole point of these posts - is hope that some video processor company will solve the problem - even the JVC rep acknowledges it and hopes they have a solution. The fact is they have to have a solution if they want to sell the JVC in professional situations where colorimetry standards are of the upmost importance - but then they can afford spendier video/color processors. But I doubt that will stop someone like Lumagen from getting it down to AVS pricing.


Psychovisual has nothing to do with Pavlov's dog - nothing to do with psychotherapy or psychology. Psychovisual science is the study of what people see in the eye/brain interface - and is a very well studied science - the CIE LCH was standardized in 1976 - the CIE xyY space it is founded upon in 1930's - they both use a model of how the eye converts visual spectra into colors. Would you dismiss the fact that we use SPL(A) to measure audio because it is a psychoacoustic measure - that we hear sound not linearly but logarathmically? You can be dismissive of it all you want - it does not change the fact that this is science and engineering - not mine - not Tom's - not Greg's - but SMPTE and CIE.

Nope, Chris Cooper...

Well I'll be - put a cowboy hat on the both of them - they have a real similar face!

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0177933/

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000380/

Well I'll be - put a cowboy hat on the both of them - they have a real similar face!

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0177933/

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000380/
Hmmmmmmmmmm...... can spot a blade of grass being a little too green a mile away, but cant tell the difference between Chris Cooper and Robert Duvall?????? Im just kidding.
Assuming this is the HD-DVD, would I be able to do a fair comparison using the standard DVD vs. these pics? Im just curious to see it with my own eyes on my RS1. I compared Crank earlier, and they were way off on any of those pics.(I know its apples to oranges etc....)

First question - how accurate of a representation of color are these pictures? i.e. how close is the color in the pic to the color you're actually seeing when you view it?

Assuming it's close, I have to say, picture 2 does NOT LOOK like real life at all. Picture 2 looks like a color newspaper photo. It looks like an oxidized photo.

When I walk ouside, I DO NOT see picture 2. In fact, most of the images I've seen in the other thread seem wrong too. Real people have red/pink in their faces, they are not pasty. Yes the "bad" image seems to make the faces appear overly red, but all of the calibrated pics seem lifeless.

You should go and look at some photo albums.. Look at outdoor pictures, look at faces. Go outside and take some pictures of grass, trees, bushes, and see if it's really that lifeless. Maybe I should take a picture and post it on here and we can compare a real world image.

I admit greens appear overly done on the RS1, but I'd like to know how many of you who want complete color accuracy own Plasma tvs or even old CRT tvs where you'd easily find the color on 2 identical tvs looking different. How many digital projectors from the past few years debuted for an MSRP of 6299 or less that had the ability to get perfect color?

http://home.comcast.net/~tlhuffman/color_project/comparison1.jpg


What movie is this????

I admit greens appear overly done on the RS1, but I'd like to know how many of you who want complete color accuracy own Plasma tvs or even old CRT tvs where you'd easily find the color on 2 identical tvs looking different.
If two CRT displays were properly calibrated, yes, they would look identical as far as color rendition is concerned. If they don't, then one or more of them is not properly calibrated...it's that simple.
How many digital projectors from the past few years debuted for an MSRP of 6299 or less that had the ability to get perfect color?
Actually there were/are a fair amount. All of the InFocus models are color accurate from the factory. Several of the LCD models are capable of accurate color, and then of course there are the 720 models, a lot of which now sell well below $6299 and are capable of accurate colors as well.

Assuming it's close, I have to say, picture 2 does NOT LOOK like real life at all. Picture 2 looks like a color newspaper photo. It looks like an oxidized photo.
It's not about looking like real life. It's about reproducing as precisely as possible what the director filmed. Sometimes the director purposely colorizes and/or uses different palettes for effect. If we made every scene look like real life we would be bypassing his intent.

From Wikipedia:

What is an aesthetic judgment?

Many see natural beauty folded within petals of a rose.Judgments of aesthetic value clearly rely on our ability to discriminate at a sensory level. Aesthetics examines what makes something beautiful, sublime, disgusting, fun, cute, silly, entertaining, pretentious, discordant, harmonious, boring, humorous, or tragic.


Immanuel Kant, writing in 1790, observes of a man that "If he says that canary wine is agreeable he is quite content if someone else corrects his terms and reminds him to say instead: It is agreeable to me," because "Everyone has his own (sense of) taste". The case of "beauty" is different from mere "agreeableness" because, "If he proclaims something to be beautiful, then he requires the same liking from others; he then judges not just for himself but for everyone, and speaks of beauty as if it were a property of things."[4]

Aesthetic judgments usually go beyond sensory discrimination. For David Hume, delicacy of taste is not merely "the ability to detect all the ingredients in a composition", but also our sensitivity "to pains as well as pleasures, which escape the rest of mankind."[5] Thus, the sensory discrimination is linked to capacity for pleasure. For Kant "enjoyment" is the result when pleasure arises from sensation, but judging something to be "beautiful" has a third requirement: sensation must give rise to pleasure by engaging our capacities of reflective contemplation.[4] Judgments of beauty are sensory, emotional, and intellectual all at once.

while you seem to include gregr's on review in that category - I am happy knowing that gregr agrees that the JVC colors are nowhere near the REC709 specification
About a month ago I asked Greg how it was that he was able to tolerate the colors on the RS-1 and he was very quick to point out at least a half dozen times where he pointed out color inaccuracies in his review. Greg does not make subjective assessments for the most part - he just reports the facts and allows the readers to twist his words to suit their own purposes...:p
There is absolutely nothing subjective about color decoding and color gamut - they are SMPTE standards for video.
Exactly...it is an established standard and not open for personal interpretation.

We have a system of mathematics that defines 2 + 2 = 4. By Catdaddy's arguments, we might as well accept that 2 + 2 = 5 or 2 + 2 = 3.362 as equally valid results because for our personal purposes and those of many enthusiasts, calibrators, industry insiders, and professional reviewers it is close enough. Until we redefine 2 + 2 to equal a different sum, then 4 is the one and only correct answer.

CIE defines particular coordinates for red, green, and blue, and any deviation from those coordinates means that the primaries are WRONG...it is that simple. Arguing that they look good does not change their incorrectness. Kevin, I, and others in this thread are not arguing whether or not the colors look "good" (that is a subjective opinion and not my place to tell you what you like or dislike), but simply that they are WRONG, and that assessment is FACT, not opinion, based on standards set by CIE and ISF.

If two CRT displays were properly calibrated, yes, they would look identical as far as color rendition is concerned. If they don't, then one or more of them is not properly calibrated...it's that simple.

Actually there were/are a fair amount. All of the InFocus models are color accurate from the factory. Several of the LCD models are capable of accurate color, and then of course there are the 720 models, a lot of which now sell well below $6299 and are capable of accurate colors as well.

Indeed - also Mitsubishi HC3x00 as well, Panny LCD if you chose the cinema presets. While none of these have color management systems that let you dial in the gamut properly - they all have accurate SD/HD decoding and gamuts within <10% from factory presets. Even the sub $1K HD70 once calibrated for greyscale and all the marketing gimmicks turned off can do decent REC709 colors. Doing colors right is not expensive at all.

While a CMS may be expensive to implement right - all of these manage to add color rematrixing options or choose color optics that that are close enough that CMS really was not needed. Many of the budget PJs need setup with correct defaults though - many have blowout color modes for marketing purposes.

Hmmmmmmmmmm...... can spot a blade of grass being a little too green a mile away, but cant tell the difference between Chris Cooper and Robert Duvall?????? Im just kidding.
Assuming this is the HD-DVD, would I be able to do a fair comparison using the standard DVD vs. these pics? Im just curious to see it with my own eyes on my RS1. I compared Crank earlier, and they were way off on any of those pics.(I know its apples to oranges etc....)

Well his face IS in cowbay hat shadow....

SD vs. HD display is about a 10-20% difference in color depth. Reds are orangier in SD - greens are yellower. Blues about the same hue just a bit paler.

You should go and look at some photo albums.. Look at outdoor pictures, look at faces. Go outside and take some pictures of grass, trees, bushes, and see if it's really that lifeless. Maybe I should take a picture and post it on here and we can compare a real world image.



Photography can support the Adobe RGB gamut standard if it wants to look beautiful like real life - and those monitors that support it are very expensive - Adobe RGB can capture deep into the green's near pure wavelengths.

I tried to take a photo of red poppies in bloom to send to my wife - and cellphone only supports the jpeg standard which has not the deeper than video gamuts. They looked bad because the colors were outside the video gamut.

Video is not as capable of color depth as film and certainly not real life- and to try to stretch it just colorizes it - just like TedTurner tries to do with B&W movies. If you want to capture the beauty of real life - you need the Digital Cinema expanded gamuts (still not as deep as AdobeRGB) - which is not available in home video format yet - though HDMI1.3 interconnect has been enhanced for wider gamut support - the problem is one of media support.

Anyone that has seen a well produced HD - like 'Planet Earth' knows how much better it can look than SD. Anyone that has seen a well produced DVD knows how much better it looks than SVHS. Anyone that has seen a well produced SVHS knows how much better it looks than VHS. Anyone that has seen a well produced VHS knows how much better it looks than CH44. All of these have standards that can be conformed to so that the formats reproduce the source video that matches what was viewed when it was recorded/broadcast. Digital Cinema well be better than HD. Adobe RGB will be better than Digital Cinema. Spy Satellites take a better pic than your cellphone. NASA spacecraft see spectra your eye can never see.

Go to a hike and roll in the wildflowers if you want to appreciate natural beauty - as you will not find it on TV. Video never has been about real life reproduction - which is why video mastering usually involves the directors signing off it's coloring as being a proper media reproduction of the film within video limits. Video reproduction is about reproducing what they signed off on. If they want to use pale or garish video colors - then you can absolutely reproduce that when you calibrate to the same SMPTE/CIE standards they used on the master. If they want to have a robot do the work who does not notice that the YCbCr cables have the CrCb twisted for reversed colors - then we don't have to buy their bottom of the bin DVD.

If you prefer garish over pale rather than pale over garish - feel free to get out your crayon box and scribble all over the screen - some TV's literally even do give you the electronic crayon box to do that very thing. But do not try to claim it is a reproduction of the video - or that you somehow managed to colorize video to be real life. Not possible.

I wish people would stop trying to minmize this serious issue. Here are some screen shots I took. judge for yourself:

http://aycu24.webshots.com/image/20103/2004135472863272646_rs.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/autumn/halloween/images/2005/green_hair.jpg

http://www-wsl.state.wy.us/slpub/outrider/2006/images/JanGreenHair.gif

http://www.ericalucci.com/storyimg/march/stpats/2.jpg

[img]

Of course, this does not mean that one cannot enjoy an oversaturated display.

Noone is debating whether color is accurate, or not.

you continue to repeat that countless calibrators disagree - while you seem to include gregr's on review in that category - I am happy knowing that gregr agrees that the JVC colors are nowhere near the REC709 specification - even to the point that he considered marketing a CMS box. You can continue to misintrepret his reviews if you want, but I will leave it to him to characterize your misrepresentations.

I dont speak for Greg, nor do I mischaracterize anyone, even you, when I refer to them.

You make it seem like I am trying to pull the wool over yours, or others, eyes with what I am saying. You know there are several professional calibrators and serious hobbyists who have already chimed in on this matter in other threads. Unless you just skipped all their posts in threads that you were actually participating in. If anyone would be mischaracterizing anyone, it would be you. 8)

You seem to be implying as if I am making this up. Are you saying that you have not seen another professional calibrator state, contrary to what you say here, that the RS1 put out a great image and that, while not accurate, the colors dont come accross as anything more than natural after tweaking it with the available RS1 controls?

You make it sound like all these reviews, incluing Gregs, were actually negative reviews of the RS1 where I am taking something good that they mention and twisting it around to mean that because they said that they liked the RS1.

Incorrect.

Are you saying I am making this up? Yeah, right. 8)

Why are you guys always trying to confuse the argument? Noone is saying that color science is subjective. What I, and several others, are saying is that you dont need absolute color accuracy for an image to look good. Period. That part of it is subjective,

The analogy between Kraz and the french food critic is very spot on. I am not debating a recipe, the analogy is for what looks and tastes good. A food critic doesnt go in to the kitchen to make sure that the chef is following the recipe to the T, he is there to comment on the taste, presentation, and other subjective observations.

The other calibrators arent saying that an accurate image is innaccurate, or vice versa, they are saying that the image looks good, despite it being innaccurate.

We have a system of mathematics that defines 2 + 2 = 4. By Catdaddy's arguments, we might as well accept that 2 + 2 = 5 or 2 + 2 = 3.362 as equally valid results because for our personal purposes and those of many enthusiasts, calibrators, industry insiders, and professional reviewers it is close enough. Until we redefine 2 + 2 to equal a different sum, then 4 is the one and only correct answer.

The king of admitted misdirection and deception speaks! 8)

Noone is arguing about whether something is, or isnt, accurate color. Heres another good example of someone mischaracterizing an argument.

Your contention seems to be that if people spend time with an accurate display that there is no way they could put up with watching an inaccurate display.

Thats wrong.

The bottom line is:

Manufacturers, JVC one of them, put out products with colors the way they are because they "full well know" what their market wants. Check Tom's earlier post on this thread for verification.

The fact is countless, likely more knowledgable, professional calibrators, industry insiders, professional reviewers, serious hobbyists, color knowledgable enthusiasts, large consumer electronics manufacturers, and the vast majority of purchasers of video display devices and equipment disagree with you. (restatement)

That is a fact. No misrepresentations. No mischaracterizations.

Factola. 8)

[QUOTE=QQQ]I wish people would stop trying to minmize this serious issue. Here are some screen shots I took. judge for yourself:

http://aycu24.webshots.com/image/20103/2004135472863272646_rs.jpg

QUOTE]

WOW!!! JVC needs to correct this now!

I am going to offer my take and then let the debate continue :). Someone said "there is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness". Anyone who has followed this forum for even a short period of time see the humor in that statement and knows just how true it is. I wish I could find a quote of mine from a few years ago when everyone was swearing they would be happy if they could just have a 1920 x 1080 PJ for under 10K and I assured them that when that day came they still wound not be happy.

Anyhow, here is my theory. This hobby and others are for many highly obsessive/compulsive. It is an obsession with achieving video perfection and the problem is that perfection does not exist. The most obvious flaw people have been able to find is the color flaw. If the color flaw did not exist, it would be something else. Every single day someone would be posting about the uneven brightness at the edges and asking when JVC was going to come out with a fix. Hilariously, that was the issue with the Ruby and you hardly ever read about the colors. Because that was the flaw people grabbed on to. You'll also notice that the dynamic iris on the Ruby was God's gift to the videophile....until the RS1 came out with 15K:1 native....now a dynamic iris is no longer acceptable. Anyone seeing any psychological patterns here?

If you want perfect colors buy the Sharp. Oops, the Sharps not perfect either. The Sharp is not bright enough. OK, so buy the Digital Projection unit that Greg Rogers said redefined what a detailed HD image looks like. Oops, the contrast on that one isn't good enough and it might have rainbows. Well, you could always buy the Sim HT5000 for 50K and have perfection. But actually that an illusion too, it's only perfect because it is out of reach.

I'm not just totally dismissing peoples issues, but I am saying that there is a compulsive obsession in this hobby that causes the same issue to repeat over and over and over with every new product. First the frenzy. Then the thrilled owners and then some angry detractors who discover it is not perfect. I used to be one of those obsessive hobbyists and then one day I stopped "wanting perfect" and suddenly I was able to be a lot happier with just about everything around me. Some of you might want to try it some time :).

The good news is that Septermber is getting closer and closer and at that point there will be another great new projector announced. The frenzy will start...then everyone will ask every day when it will be released...then the orders will be placed and people will be upset it is not shipping on time....then the unit will come in to exuberant reviews....until someone alerts everyone to some flaw they should be concerned about and worried hobbyists go running to their projectors to analyze the flaw (which many of them previously didn't notice or even liked...;).

I'll now let you return to the debate about how serious the color issue is for another 10 pages.

Dr. QQQ

Noone is arguing about whether something is, or isnt, accurate color.
Yes, that is PRECISELY the argument.
Your contention seems to be that if people spend time with an accurate display that there is no way they could put up with watching an inaccurate display.
No, that is Kevin's point, not mine, though I do agree with him that accurate displays look a heck of a lot better than inaccurate ones (MY opinion).
The fact is countless, likely more knowledgable, professional calibrators, industry insiders, professional reviewers, serious hobbyists, color knowledgable enthusiasts, large consumer electronics manufacturers, and the vast majority of purchasers of video display devices and equipment disagree with you. (restatement)
Everyone in the world could agree that they LIKE watching inaccurate colors - I could care less. I never have and never will tell someone what they should and shouldn't LIKE subjectively. MY argument is that oversaturated primaries are not accurate, and that is FACT. No misrepresentations. No mischaracterizations.

Comparing the RS1 to the Pearl is not very meaningful. It's between a PJ with poor color performance and one with extremely poor color performance. Also, I'm not sure that this particular screen shot is a good choice. Here are some more revealing comparisons. The RS1 example is on top and a color-accurate display is on the bottom.

http://home.comcast.net/~tlhuffman/color_project/comparison1.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~tlhuffman/color_project/comparison2.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~tlhuffman/color_project/comparison3.jpg

BTW, I think that JVC is doing exactly the right thing. If it is not technically feasible to fix this problem in the firmware as tsites claims, then offering it in an external processor makes a fix available for those who want it but imposes no costs or effort on those who don't care.


I haven't had enough time with our RS1 yet to really know how I feel about the "neon colors" that everyone complains about... right now I'm not even projecting it on a screen (still building screen wall). As we all know, viewing screen photos on a monitor isn't accurate either... as there can be way too much variation between monitors and even camera exposure settings. Having said all that, I find the RS1 pictures above much more accurate and "life like" on my monitor than the reference shot. If that's what I have to look forward to, I'll be very happy.

well said QQQ.

so true and so like audiophiles. sometimes you have to sit back, take a break and enjoy what you have.

how many of us have told our wives/girlfriends that something looks fine while they are obsessing about some minute detail in their appearance? we on this forum make what they do look miniscule in comparison.

I wish people would stop trying to minmize this serious issue. Here are some screen shots I took. judge for yourself:

http://aycu24.webshots.com/image/20103/2004135472863272646_rs.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/autumn/halloween/images/2005/green_hair.jpg

http://www-wsl.state.wy.us/slpub/outrider/2006/images/JanGreenHair.gif

http://www.ericalucci.com/storyimg/march/stpats/2.jpg

[img]

I heard the JVC was selling like crazy on Mars at the beginning and that's why there was a shortage.

http://krasmuzik.biz/reviews/greenies.jpg

Excellent post, QQQ, and so true! The only sad part about the recent trend in this forum is that we, the lunatic fringe, who have been responsible for helping to push the envelope for better and better products, better and better performance, are now reversing that trend. I see Catdaddy's crusade as a push in the exact opposite direction - to accept the failings in color accuracy and simply accept and enjoy them as they are. Basically he seems to be saying that there is no pressing need to fix the colors because many people like them just the way that they are, or at least that is what I keep getting out of his arguments. Since there seems to be quite a lot of people who agree that they also prefer the inaccurate colors, then there will be very little motivation for companies like JVC to do anything about them, and that is what I feel is a real shame.

Yes, that is PRECISELY the argument.


Ok, I dont know who you are arguing with on that one. I dont see anyone on any of these threads ever say, or suggest, that oversaturated colors are accurate. I certainly have never said, or implied it.

MY argument is that oversaturated primaries are not accurate, and that is FACT. No misrepresentations. No mischaracterizations.


We agree on that matter, Bob. Noone is disputing that.

We have a system of mathematics that defines 2 + 2 = 4. By Catdaddy's arguments, we might as well accept that 2 + 2 = 5 or 2 + 2 = 3.362 as equally valid results because for our personal purposes and those of many enthusiasts, calibrators, industry insiders, and professional reviewers it is close enough. Until we redefine 2 + 2 to equal a different sum, then 4 is the one and only correct answer.

Dont know where this came from. But yes, 2 + 2 =4. Never said otherwise. 8)

Having said all that, I find the RS1 pictures above much more accurate and "life like" on my monitor than the reference shot. If that's what I have to look forward to, I'll be very happy.

Add another to the countless of others mentioned above who seem to find that you dont need absolute accurate colors to enjoy images/movies.

Even Bob doesnt seem to agree with you on that matter:

No, that is Kevin's point, not mine, though I do agree with him that accurate displays look a heck of a lot better than inaccurate ones (MY opinion).

I see Catdaddy's crusade as a push in the exact opposite direction - to accept the failings in color accuracy and simply accept and enjoy them as they are. Basically he seems to be saying that there is no pressing need to fix the colors because many people like them just the way that they are, or at least that is what I keep getting out of his arguments. Since there seems to be quite a lot of people who agree that they also prefer the inaccurate colors, then there will be very little motivation for companies like JVC to do anything about them, and that is what I feel is a real shame.



That really is not my push, Bob. I would like JVC to get CMS working on the RS1, if its possible with an update, and to come out with products that have CMS, or an accurate setting at the least. Id also like them to come out with vertical stretch properly implemented on their future projectors, at least if the processor of the projector is adequately capable.

What is bothersome to me is the brow-beating, condescending tones, gross exagerations, micharacterizations, just to make a point. I am not exactly sure how I got into the first color discussion but I believe I was just trying to say that the colors on the RS1, despite being not accurate, were manageable enough via its controls and natural (enough) looking to be not distracting from the best looking images that I had seen on a PJ.

A lot similar to what Charles, and many others (including calibrators, etc,) has said on this very thread, above.

We all want the best picture we can get, but that isnt always necessarily the same thing for all of us. Ill quote Charles post again and youll see he isnt arguing that the colors are accurate, or isnt telling JVC not to work on getting CMS right.

To put a cap on my thoughts regarding the topic I have absolutely no doubt the colors can’t be made perfect since Greg Rogers stated such in his review. The only reason I posted the images was from the fact that I have read seemingly thousands of posts from a few individuals stating they were hopeless at best. To the point I dismissed the projector.

When I finally took a look at the projector I found within a few minutes I could produce a much better image than I was led to believe and with the right calibrator or test equipment using the tools that JVC offers I’m comfortable the RS1 could produce a fairly accurate image.

Would it be perfect? I’m guessing it wouldn’t. Would it look different than a projector with perfect color? Perhaps. Would the difference be enough that it would be noticeable to any extent during actual viewing? At this time I don’t think so which is the opposite of what I had been led to believe.
Which is why I agreed with in my original posting… “Make the decision from what you read AND what you see with your owns eyes.”

Excellent post, QQQ, and so true! The only sad part about the recent trend in this forum is that we, the lunatic fringe, who have been responsible for helping to push the envelope for better and better products, better and better performance, are now reversing that trend. I see Catdaddy's crusade as a push in the exact opposite direction - to accept the failings in color accuracy and simply accept and enjoy them as they are. Basically he seems to be saying that there is no pressing need to fix the colors because many people like them just the way that they are, or at least that is what I keep getting out of his arguments. Since there seems to be quite a lot of people who agree that they also prefer the inaccurate colors, then there will be very little motivation for companies like JVC to do anything about them, and that is what I feel is a real shame.


PS Bob, I think what Q is saying is that the color issue isnt REALLY that serious and its not the end of the world. 8)

I'm not just totally dismissing peoples issues, but I am saying that there is a compulsive obsession in this hobby that causes the same issue to repeat over and over and over with every new product. First the frenzy. Then the thrilled owners and then some angry detractors who discover it is not perfect. I used to be one of those obsessive hobbyists and then one day I stopped "wanting perfect" and suddenly I was able to be a lot happier with just about everything around me. Some of you might want to try it some time .


It doesnt need to be pinpoint accurate as long as you think its the best image you have ever seen, or even if its just good enough. Youll always be measuring your projector, otherwise, to see if the bulb has aged you out of that zone, or something else, or another, and youll likely be second-guessing yourself on something.

This pretty much sums up my impression of you. Always trying for perfection.

I think thats what the Dr. is saying.

I forget what movie this was in, and I don't even know if the quote is accurate...I dont even remember if the movie was good :)

"If every day was a sunny day, what would be a sunny day?"

How many times do you see it with work/careers. Every job I'm in, I've always heard others complain. No matter how much better it is than my previous, i always find something to complain about and if I can't think of something, my co-workers usually feed me crap to complain about along with them. The pay, the hours, the managers, the clients, the chair you sit in, etc. I guess it's what makes us human.

There have been threads about how moral is it to return a DVD to a place that allows it. I've seen conversations about how Sony, and Microsoft are evil. I've seen people complain about the Blood Diamond HD/BD transfer. It will never end.

To summarize, if everything was perfect, what would we have to look forward to?

I am going to offer my take and then let the debate continue :). Someone said "there is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness". Anyone who has followed this forum for even a short period of time see the humor in that statement and knows just how true it is. I wish I could find a quote of mine from a few years ago when everyone was swearing they would be happy if they could just have a 1920 x 1080 PJ for under 10K and I assured them that when that day came they still wound not be happy.

Anyhow, here is my theory. This hobby and others are for many highly obsessive/compulsive. It is an obsession with achieving video perfection and the problem is that perfection does not exist. The most obvious flaw people have been able to find is the color flaw. If the color flaw did not exist, it would be something else. Every single day someone would be posting about the uneven brightness at the edges and asking when JVC was going to come out with a fix. Hilariously, that was the issue with the Ruby and you hardly ever read about the colors. Because that was the flaw people grabbed on to. You'll also notice that the dynamic iris on the Ruby was God's gift to the videophile....until the RS1 came out with 15K:1 native....now a dynamic iris is no longer acceptable. Anyone seeing any psychological patterns here?

If you want perfect colors buy the Sharp. Oops, the Sharps not perfect either. The Sharp is not bright enough. OK, so buy the Digital Projection unit that Greg Rogers said redefined what a detailed HD image looks like. Oops, the contrast on that one isn't good enough and it might have rainbows. Well, you could always buy the Sim HT5000 for 50K and have perfection. But actually that an illusion too, it's only perfect because it is out of reach.

I'm not just totally dismissing peoples issues, but I am saying that there is a compulsive obsession in this hobby that causes the same issue to repeat over and over and over with every new product. First the frenzy. Then the thrilled owners and then some angry detractors who discover it is not perfect. I used to be one of those obsessive hobbyists and then one day I stopped "wanting perfect" and suddenly I was able to be a lot happier with just about everything around me. Some of you might want to try it some time :).

The good news is that Septermber is getting closer and closer and at that point there will be another great new projector announced. The frenzy will start...then everyone will ask every day when it will be released...then the orders will be placed and people will be upset it is not shipping on time....then the unit will come in to exuberant reviews....until someone alerts everyone to some flaw they should be concerned about and worried hobbyists go running to their projectors to analyze the flaw (which many of them previously didn't notice or even liked...;).

I'll now let you return to the debate about how serious the color issue is for another 10 pages.

Dr. QQQ

I understand what you guys are saying, but the other side of that coin is if you settle for the status quo, then progress will never be made. If the guys at NASCAR thought their cars were fast enough, then cars would never get faster. If the geeks (like me) thought that their computers were good enough to do the tasks that they needed, then more powerful computers would never get developed. What is the incentive for progress if we simply accept that things are "good enough"? If we don't complain, then there is no reason to fix anything!

I honestly don't think the complaints of the most vocal 5 or 6 people on this forum matter at all to the manufacturers.

Manufacturers make product advancements to create a competitive advantage over their competitors, not to please us.

Nascar teams make faster cars to win races and in winning please the fans. They don't create faster cars to please the fans.

Complaining is one thing, Bob, but telling someone who is saying that "sure, my car could stand to go faster, but its fast enough to win a couple of races" that they were lying sack of shits, or blind and inexperienced, and that the cars were slower than buses (with a straight and serious face) and fast is defined as always wins every race, and its defined by the Speaker of the House, I read it in Scientific American, so you know its gotta be right, literally and seriously. That is wrong.

Nothing wrong with wanting to make other consumers more aware of CMS and the lack of it. The bad part is when they are attacked, condescended to, etc., all of that stuff above. Like mrlittlejeans is saying, the manufacturers already know. I think even Tom admitted he didnt know why they chose to leave out the accurate color setting, when they could have put it in, but that he knew why they put in the colors that they did.

If someone at JVC has the power to get something implemented via firmware upgrade I dount that they would be swayed by the above type manipulation. I know I wouldnt if I didm (have the power.) Factual, sensible, well reasoned, honest and courteous appeals would make much more sense.

Having said all that, I find the RS1 pictures above much more accurate and "life like" on my monitor than the reference shot. If that's what I have to look forward to, I'll be very happy.

Not to mention that the RS1 picture doesn't have blue snow. Unless i'm very much mistaken, surely that can't be correct?

I don't think that I have insulted, condescended, or attacked anyone on this issue. My intent has simply been to rally for some support, but if that support is not there, then there is even less incentive for manufacturers to take notice. Every time that another person comes along and says, "Wow, those colors look fine to me" just puts one more nail in the coffin. If most everybody is happy with the colors, why change them?

I hope that JVC will actually consider either putting in accurate primaries as a preset or adding a CMS to dial them in, but based on the amount of acceptance that the oversaturated colors have gotten around here, I have my doubts. Tom hasn't made a single comment since his initial ones at the beginning of the thread, and the most pertinent question that remains unanswered (or at least to me) is "Has JVC designed a NEW processor to include a proper CMS or are they merely planning on marketing a rebadged VP50?" If the former, then I would have high hopes for the next generation RS series of projector, but if the latter then that will be nothing but a bandaid fix for the RS-1, and personally speaking I won't buy another JVC projector no matter how much they increase the contrast if they don't fix the colors.

So once again I do not condemn anyone for liking the oversaturated colors, but I also believe that Kevin is correct that if you guys spent a couple of weeks with both the RS-1 and a decent color correct display that you too would prefer the color correct display in the end (or at least I hope that would be the case). But maybe I'm wrong and you would still prefer the oversaturated colors (like Cam Man does). Now the most interesting thing would be if JVC had 2 presets, one just like it is now and the other with the same luminance but with perfect primaries, switchable via software. I wonder how many people would use the oversaturated colors under those conditions.

And another reminder, the oversaturated colors are NOT a problem with pristine sources like the HD-DVD version of Crank (which Charles provided to make his point), which is probably one of the best transfers available. The oversaturated problem rears its ugly head with the less than pristine material which accounts for 95% (or more) of the stuff that is out there. I don't know about you, but even though I seek out the best visual material available, I just can't sit there and watch the same handful of titles over and over again. I watch broadcast satellite and OTA HD a LOT, so I need my colors to look good ALL of the time, not just on the best transfers. That is why Kevin has said (and I agree) that if you guys were to watch a color correct display for a couple of weeks (the point being that you would get to watch it with a huge variety of material) that you might just change your mind and become a little less tolerant of the oversaturated colors. That's what happened to me. I watch both displays DAILY, and the more I watch both of them, the more I have learned to dislike the RS-1 colors and the more appreciation I have gained for correct colors.

Any of the "bandaid" fixes is not good grounds for comparing oversaturated primaries versus proper primaries. As has been mentioned before, the most common "fix" for the RS-1 is accomplished by reducing the color control, and what that does mainly is to reduce the luminance, not the chrominance. As a result, people think they are seeing a more color correct "look" to the picture, but they are not. A color correct display has the same pop and wow factor that the RS-1 has when the color control is not reduced, but the difference is that the colors are correct. There is no way for anyone to see this with an RS-1 regardless of what bandaid fix they use - they need to see a color correct display of approximately equal quality to the RS-1 in order to make any kind of meaningful comparison. And then watch source material that is less than stellar in quality.

It does look like there will be a couple of new entries in color correct displays in the approximate same price range as the RS-1 coming soon, the InFocus IN82 and the Marantz VP15-S1. Catdaddy, maybe you are right and the new competition will provide enough incentive for JVC to do something about their current color situation - I sure hope so!

I am going to offer my take and then let the debate continue :). Someone said "there is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness". Anyone who has followed this forum for even a short period of time see the humor in that statement and knows just how true it is. I wish I could find a quote of mine from a few years ago when everyone was swearing they would be happy if they could just have a 1920 x 1080 PJ for under 10K and I assured them that when that day came they still wound not be happy.

Anyhow, here is my theory. This hobby and others are for many highly obsessive/compulsive. It is an obsession with achieving video perfection and the problem is that perfection does not exist. The most obvious flaw people have been able to find is the color flaw. If the color flaw did not exist, it would be something else. Every single day someone would be posting about the uneven brightness at the edges and asking when JVC was going to come out with a fix. Hilariously, that was the issue with the Ruby and you hardly ever read about the colors. Because that was the flaw people grabbed on to. You'll also notice that the dynamic iris on the Ruby was God's gift to the videophile....until the RS1 came out with 15K:1 native....now a dynamic iris is no longer acceptable. Anyone seeing any psychological patterns here?

If you want perfect colors buy the Sharp. Oops, the Sharps not perfect either. The Sharp is not bright enough. OK, so buy the Digital Projection unit that Greg Rogers said redefined what a detailed HD image looks like. Oops, the contrast on that one isn't good enough and it might have rainbows. Well, you could always buy the Sim HT5000 for 50K and have perfection. But actually that an illusion too, it's only perfect because it is out of reach.

I'm not just totally dismissing peoples issues, but I am saying that there is a compulsive obsession in this hobby that causes the same issue to repeat over and over and over with every new product. First the frenzy. Then the thrilled owners and then some angry detractors who discover it is not perfect. I used to be one of those obsessive hobbyists and then one day I stopped "wanting perfect" and suddenly I was able to be a lot happier with just about everything around me. Some of you might want to try it some time :).

The good news is that Septermber is getting closer and closer and at that point there will be another great new projector announced. The frenzy will start...then everyone will ask every day when it will be released...then the orders will be placed and people will be upset it is not shipping on time....then the unit will come in to exuberant reviews....until someone alerts everyone to some flaw they should be concerned about and worried hobbyists go running to their projectors to analyze the flaw (which many of them previously didn't notice or even liked...;).

I'll now let you return to the debate about how serious the color issue is for another 10 pages.

Dr. QQQ

That is the BEST post I've read in a long time...
Kudos..

My Westinghouse LCD pushes the primaries too and it does not bother me much - it is just TV. But when I sit in my home theater I have much higher expectations. I want my RS1 to reproduce accurate colors. Accurate does not mean life like or what I see when I look out the window, but what the director of the movie has intended.

I do not regret my purchase. But I have come to terms with the fact that I have to shell out a couple thousand $ more to get what I want. If there is a solution....

I thank you for this great thread/discussion. It gives me hope that people at JVC will understand that this is a serious flaw of the otherwise excellent RS1. Please keep it alive.

Good one Q-cubed, you've not lost your touch!!!

Bob, we are offering a re-badged VP50 as part of our CIH package with Panamorph lens, but that product, like most of the other processors out there, does not currently offer the means to adjust color primaries and cure the oversaturation. I can't say any more than that without getting into future product plans...what with CEDIA being right around the corner.

Cheers,

Ok, thanks, Tom. I appreciate your comments. I guess we'll just have to wait for CEDIA....It should be very exciting if you guys have come up with a solution! I'm glad to know that the rebadged VP50 isn't the proposed fix.

My Westinghouse LCD pushes the primaries too and it does not bother me much - it is just TV. But when I sit in my home theater I have much higher expectations. I want my RS1 to reproduce accurate colors. Accurate does not mean life like or what I see when I look out the window, but what the director of the movie has intended.
...

I thank you for this great thread/discussion. It gives me hope that people at JVC will understand that this is a serious flaw of the otherwise excellent RS1. Please keep it alive.
Agreed. One observation though. I would substitute "provided" with "intended". I'm not so sure directors always intend to do things, but in the end, it's what they have caved in stone that we ultimately see whether they intended it or not. ;)

Catdaddy, maybe you are right and the new competition will provide enough incentive for JVC to do something about their current color situation - I sure hope so!


We are probably all a little bit right and a little bit wrong. Nice post, there, Bob.

I just wanted to make it clear that I do not prefer oversaturated colors. As you know, when I first posted that I liked my color setting at -20 to -10 everyone, including Greg, thought there was something wrong with my eyes. 8)

I have just been saying that the lack of absolute accurate colors does not prevent the RS1 from providing a great, realistic, pleasing picture. In my experience, every movie I, and eveyrone else, have seen on my HD1 has looked fantastic.

To me, director's intent, or at least what is left of the intent after the digital/color guys, and editors, are done, appears to be easily acceptably conveyed on my HD1. I dont really understand why some people find it objectionable to watch color that is not intentionally off, even if it really isnt that far off, versus when it is far off but intentional.

Personal preferences, I guess. If we all had the same tastes, and they were absolute, we would all have the same projectors, cars, houses, kids names and wear the same kinds of clothes and colognes. Hmm, reminds me of that movie with Scarlet Johansen and Obi Wan. Didnt they used to do that in China and Russia? 8)

The oversaturated colors on the HD1/RS1 is a subjective matter, even though they are more saturated than in any video-colorspace. Either you like it, or you dislike it.

Personally, I find the colors pleasing when watching HD-DVD's, and "ok" when watching SD material. My biggest complaint is when watching sports, and especially football (soccer). The grass is WAY to green, and I find it difficult to actually watch the game. The solution, even though it's a bad one, is to adjust the colors in between -15 and -20.

If JVC came out with a reasonably priced VP with CMS, I would buy it instantly !!

You guys obsessed with 'oversatuated colors' ought to read the new www.projectorreviews.com Comparative Review of the RS1 and Sharp 20000.

If someone knows how to snap a jpeg from a decoded mpeg stream - an HTPC could give the reference image that is identical to that on the DVD. Screen snapping is not the same thing –
Here are decoded and transformed to RGB images capped from the Universal Studios DVD. These are native-rez (anamorphic) lossless (jpeg compression alters levels).

These are captured at both 8-bit StudioRGB (~10.6 million possible valid triads) levels and 8-bit sRGB (~16.7 million possible valid triads) levels. These are direct digital captures from the frame buffer after transforming and rendering to RGB. They aren’t from a camera and should be representative of how the DVD was mastered and encoded.

IMO, many of the scenes in SeaBiscuit seem oversaturated by the colorist (especially in green) and are source encoded that way- D/P intent perhaps? While I don’t own nor have seen an RS1, I suppose that may be part of it. If everyone in the chain wants to ‘goose it a little’ for ‘subjective, artistic reasons’ then it can become too much.

Dave

http://members.aceweb.com/dlarsen/pics/seabiscuita_Studiorgb.png
http://members.aceweb.com/dlarsen/pics/seabiscuita_srgb.png
http://members.aceweb.com/dlarsen/pics/seabiscuitb_Studiorgb.png
http://members.aceweb.com/dlarsen/pics/seabiscuitb_srgb.png


Ref CIE (http://members.aceweb.com/dlarsen/pics/ref_cie.png)

...My intent has simply been to rally for some support, but if that support is not there, then there is even less incentive for manufacturers to take notice. Every time that another person comes along and says, "Wow, those colors look fine to me" just puts one more nail in the coffin. If most everybody is happy with the colors, why change them?


I agree very much with that statement. It's like pan-and-scan (PS) vs original aspect ratio (OAR). For a long time movies were rarely available in OAR because the general public prefered PS to fill up the 4x3 tv screen. After a lot of education the pendulum has swung the other way, and OAR has become part of the norm (I wouldn't go so far as to say that PS has been elimated).

BUT...

...but I also believe that Kevin is correct that if you guys spent a couple of weeks with both the RS-1 and a decent color correct display that you too would prefer the color correct display in the end (or at least I hope that would be the case). But maybe I'm wrong and you would still prefer the oversaturated colors (like Cam Man does). Now the most interesting thing would be if JVC had 2 presets, one just like it is now and the other with the same luminance but with perfect primaries, switchable via software. I wonder how many people would use the oversaturated colors under those conditions.


...I think that accurate colors will be a harder sell, because it's nearly impossible to provide a clear reference. After all, as Kras says, you can't use real life as the standard, because that's not necessarily what the director wants to show. So how do you convince someone that oversaturated colors are wrong when we don't know what the target is? Look at the cowboy photos that Tom posted. Sure everyone can see that the colors are different, but how am I supposed to know which one is closer to what the director wants (remember, I can't use real life as a reference)?

Saying that oversaturated colors are always uglier than the accurate ones or anyone who sees an accurate display will always prefer it over an unaccurate one is simply untrue and not a convincing argument. There will always exist some examples where more people will prefer the incorrect colors over the correct ones (really, there are some people think krytponite foliage looks great). You have to stress that the important thing is to have the option of displaying the correct colors, not that one looks better than the other. Eventually, people will appreciate what the director intended to show, rather than what the viewer's personal preference is (just like PS vs OAR).

At any rate, I support the effort of those that are pushing towards more complete color management abilities and encourage them to continue responding to those that don't mind the status quo. I just don't know what the best way to convince more people of its importance. At least you seemed to have convinced JVC :)

I-Liang

You guys obsessed with 'oversatuated colors' ought to read the new www.projectorreviews.com Comparative Review of the RS1 and Sharp 20000.

Thst was a great review.Very fair.Seem like the guys who got the JVC from AVS in the $4k range back during the promo got one heck of a deal.If the Sharp cost allmost $10k and the JVC is just as good WOW.Thanks for the Head's UP.BOB

Thst was a great review.Very fair.Seem like the guys who got the JVC from AVS in the $4k range back during the promo got one heck of a deal.If the Sharp cost allmost $10k and the JVC is just as good WOW.Thanks for the Head's UP.BOB
I believe it was 5K range, not 4K. Prices are not supposed to be posted on the forum so better to discuss it off, not on, but I'm posting because I think it might be very misleading for someone purchasing now to think people paid 4K.

IAnyhow, here is my theory. This hobby and others are for many highly obsessive/compulsive. It is an obsession with achieving video perfection and the problem is that perfection does not exist. The most obvious flaw people have been able to find is the color flaw. If the color flaw did not exist, it would be something else. Every single day someone would be posting about the uneven brightness at the edges and asking when JVC was going to come out with a fix. Hilariously, that was the issue with the Ruby and you hardly ever read about the colors. Because that was the flaw people grabbed on to. You'll also notice that the dynamic iris on the Ruby was God's gift to the videophile....until the RS1 came out with 15K:1 native....now a dynamic iris is no longer acceptable. Anyone seeing any psychological patterns here?
You get my vote for post of the year with this gem :D

LOL!
I'm still laughing with Qubster's several posts in this thread.
Thanks for being here Qubed to put a little perspective in this insanity called AVS!

Thst was a great review.Very fair.Seem like the guys who got the JVC from AVS in the $4k range back during the promo got one heck of a deal.If the Sharp cost allmost $10k and the JVC is just as good WOW.Thanks for the Head's UP.BOB

It's like the stock market: sometimes one wins, and more often looses! And when you win, it's just plain luck. Getting in on the AVS pre-buy for the RS1 is by far the best move I've made in this hobby, and it was just luck that I was ready to make a decision at that time. OTOH, I bought a Sammy 1200 BR several months ago for ~ $600, a great price at the time, but now I see it for ~ $450. But I like it very much, so I'm not pained by it; and overall, with the RS1, I'm still way ahead--for the moment!

"I think it might be very misleading for someone purchasing now to think people paid 4K. "

It's just as misleading to think we paid $5K.

I am coming in on the end of this color debate so I have not read all of this thread.

As an ISF calibrator I know what accurate color images look like. I have been fortunate enough to talk at length and often with Joe Kane and Joel Silver about calibration and test material and equipment.

IMO in this day and age there is NO EXCUSE to offer a video display device with NON ADJUSTABLE COLOR CONTROLS.

JVC took the low road on the RS-1 and I saw this first hand in my own room comparing it to the far more accurate InFocus SP 777 of my own. There has to be a boat load of compromises made to get a unit down to this price level.

The JVC left a few days later back to where it came from. I was that disappointed with it.

Most folks here are not as familiar with good images as they are still far back on the learning curve. I don't sell magazines so I don't need to make advertisers or editor/mag owners happy.

I can sell most anything but I recommend very few. If my customer wants something I KNOW to be flawed I point these flaws out in full disclosure and then when things go wrong it is on them and not me. I will still help but not on my dime as I told them in advance this was going to happen.

JVC made a choice to sell a flawed non adjustable color spectrum to mostly unknowing JOE SIX PACK.
Weather this comes back to haunt them only time will tell.

Fortunately there are far more accurate choices out there and some cost even less than the JVC. Good ISF calibrators know these choices and make this info available to those who desire an accurate image and not cartoons or painted ladies of the night.

I also find the JVC to be far to soft and very flat looking due to is low ANSI contrast around 290.

I think the new IN 82 by InFocus is going to get some JVC converts as it will deal with all of the flaws the JVC has and be good enough in the contrast area. Time will tell.

Well I looked at QQQs screenshots and liked the way the projector handles hair so much that I decided I just gotta get one. I particularly liked how the projector did the hair of the lady holding the front of the dog.

Just when this group starts taking itself too seriously, the Q man comes along and brings it all back down to earth.

:D

JVC made a choice to sell a flawed non adjustable color spectrum to mostly unknowing JOE SIX PACK.
Weather this comes back to haunt them only time will tell.


You know what...stop. That is just going a bit too far.

I'll buy all of the bad talking about color and the RS1 and JVC etc...but what I can't stand is the insinuation (and Allen it is specifically your post that I am writing in response to) by everyone that because one thing is bad, throw the unit out.... or even more insulting, that those of us enjoying this projectors are naive, "joe six pack" watchers. Your comment was arrogant and insulting.

I have one of these. I researched like everyone else. I used to own a Hitachi RP-CRT calibrated by Greg Loewen. I've seen the right colors. I've lived with them. Somehow...unbelievably, I'm enjoying my RS1.

Just like QQQ's great post - there isn't anything that's perfect. Let me just point out:

1. As someone with a small, placement constrained room none...I repeat: NONE of the alternatives being cited here were doable for me. The In82? No way. Infocus 777...are you kidding me my room is 12x12. Sharp? Nope...
I've tried having DLP's in my room and the simple fact of the matter is the zoom range and flexibility isn't anywhere close to what I need. So those of us with a small room shouldn't consider a more high end unit that actually will accommodate our room because it has flaws? Everything has flaws...one of which is placement flexibility...Not to mention the fact that I am nauseated by DLP rainbows.

2. In the end we're still talking about high end units here, yes? The infocus, sharp, etc...we are talking about spending $4000 dollars on a projector. Is there an alternative? Allen - do you suggest people buy what.... I notice that nobody is citing the Panasonic, Epson 1080 as alternatives...why? Because while they may be capable of more accurate colors, their contrast ratio's are inferior. So pick your poison. I, for one, really like my blacks black and containing some shadow detail. Sony Pearl? I've had three go through my theater...one had convergence so bad that I could actually use a ruler to measure the separation between green and red. So, I guess then I shouldn't have a projector then...because the JVC is awful.


So while I do understand that there are problems here...And while yes, I can appreciate that we need to advocate for better color, let's not get beyond ourselves - this thread should be SUPER POSITIVE!
This is an exciting thread because...remember originally what this was about guys....Tom Stites said that they were working on a solution. Rock on! Let's see what comes out at CEDIA. I, for one, am excited!

I'll buy all of the bad talking about color and the RS1 and JVC etc...but what I can't stand is the insinuation (and Allen it is specifically your post that I am writing in response to) by everyone that because one thing is bad, throw the unit out.... or even more insulting, that those of us enjoying this projectors are naive, "joe six pack" watchers. Your comment was arrogant and insulting.

I have one of these. I researched like everyone else. I used to own a Hitachi RP-CRT calibrated by Greg Loewen. I've seen the right colors. I've lived with them. Somehow...unbelievably, I'm enjoying my RS1

Amen. 8)

I knew it wouldnt be long before the Infocus dealers came out.

BTW, I paid $5.4k for my HD1, but I couldnt wait for my RS1 to get here and I did get to see that it was a very good unit, with very nicely converged and had no bright corners issues. Worth it to me. 8)

Why is it that so many installers for pro Infocus? Do they make an extra cushy margin on them?

I wonder how much of a vetting process there is to become one. 8) Probably just send them a fax of your tax retail certificate and an email address.

I am coming in on the end of this color debate so I have not read all of this thread.

As an ISF calibrator I know what accurate color images look like. I have been fortunate enough to talk at length and often with Joe Kane and Joel Silver about calibration and test material and equipment.

IMO in this day and age there is NO EXCUSE to offer a video display device with NON ADJUSTABLE COLOR CONTROLS.

JVC took the low road on the RS-1 and I saw this first hand in my own room comparing it to the far more accurate InFocus SP 777 of my own. There has to be a boat load of compromises made to get a unit down to this price level.

The JVC left a few days later back to where it came from. I was that disappointed with it.

Most folks here are not as familiar with good images as they are still far back on the learning curve. I don't sell magazines so I don't need to make advertisers or editor/mag owners happy.

I can sell most anything but I recommend very few. If my customer wants something I KNOW to be flawed I point these flaws out in full disclosure and then when things go wrong it is on them and not me. I will still help but not on my dime as I told them in advance this was going to happen.

JVC made a choice to sell a flawed non adjustable color spectrum to mostly unknowing JOE SIX PACK.
Weather this comes back to haunt them only time will tell.

Fortunately there are far more accurate choices out there and some cost even less than the JVC. Good ISF calibrators know these choices and make this info available to those who desire an accurate image and not cartoons or painted ladies of the night.

I also find the JVC to be far to soft and very flat looking due to is low ANSI contrast around 290.

I think the new IN 82 by InFocus is going to get some JVC converts as it will deal with all of the flaws the JVC has and be good enough in the contrast area. Time will tell.
Thank God there are people with your vast integrity and expertise to help the peons of the world. As far as the Infocus 82 which "will deal with "all the flaws the JVC has", it's just ashame that PJ will foist potential rainbows on all the "unknowing JOE SIX PACK's". Then again, maybe you aren;t bothered by rainbows just like some people aren't bother by slightly inaccurate colors. I am still concerned though, you aren't a JOE SIX PACK, are you Allen? "Good enough contrast"??? You may know what good color is but not black. OMG, you are a JOE SIX PACK.

You know what...stop. That is just going a bit too far.I'll buy all of the bad talking about color and the RS1 and JVC etc...but what I can't stand is the insinuation (and Allen it is specifically your post that I am writing in response to) by everyone that because one thing is bad, throw the unit out.... or even more insulting, that those of us enjoying this projectors are naive, "joe six pack" watchers. Your comment was arrogant and insulting.
I!
The other position is as well. One "fringe benefit" that I have gotten from my studies in psychology is a clear awareness of the metrics of my psychological profile,IQ scores, personality profiles, etc. I do not measure as having an obsessive personality trait or disorder, two different things. In fact on all the personality batteries that I have seen, whether you have a hobby is not one of the questions asked ;). Most hobbies involves seeking improvements. This is not obsessive compulsion. What it is, is "TV Drama" psychology and plain old ignorance.In fact, If QQQ's commentary was an ocean, his knowledge of OCD would be at the Marianas Trench. For me, the colors of the RS1 measure and are oversaturated. It's that simple. Now the discussion of ones awareness of them or your preferences does not have to involve labeling. I agree with that.

"I think it might be very misleading for someone purchasing now to think people paid 4K. "

It's just as misleading to think we paid $5K.
:) Im smiling and I wasnt even part of the original buy...

Not to mention that the RS1 picture doesn't have blue snow. Unless i'm very much mistaken, surely that can't be correct?
Ive seen yellow snow before...

Not that this thread hasn't been entertaining, but, would anyone be interested in changing course and begin speculation on JVC's solution?

Not that this thread hasn't been entertaining, but, would anyone be interested in changing course and begin speculation on JVC's solution?
The're posting it on their website.... dont know why we dont have any info yet.

The other position is as well. One "fringe benefit" that I have gotten from my studies in psychology is a clear awareness of the metrics of my psychological profile,IQ scores, personality profiles, etc. I do not measure as having an obsessive personality trait or disorder, two different things. In fact on all the personality batteries that I have seen, whether you have a hobby is not one of the questions asked ;). Most hobbies involves seeking improvements. This is not obsessive compulsion. What it is, is "TV Drama" psychology and plain old ignorance.In fact, If QQQ's commentary was an ocean, his knowledge of OCD would be at the Marianas Trench. For me, the colors of the RS1 measure and are oversaturated. It's that simple. Now the discussion of ones awareness of them or your preferences does not have to involve labeling. I agree with that.
How did you measure on distorting and mischaracterizing what others say?

Not that this thread hasn't been entertaining, but, would anyone be interested in changing course and begin speculation on JVC's solution?
Didn't we just have several pages of that. They are going to have a product that corrects for the oversaturated primary's, and tstites can't say more than that at the moment. Unless someone has inside info what else is their to speculate about. I guess I'll make this speculation. There is no way JVC is going to be the OEM so IMO that means JVC is working with one of the companies already making video processors to bring something to market.

Ok. Everyone has made his point. The color is not perfect. Some aren't bothered by it, some are. They are working on a solution.

I'd like to know the following: Let's say the color correction unit cost 2K (I hope it's 1/4th of that). Would you be able to find any other projector currently on the market that offers all the advantages of the RS1 for the cost of RS1 plus color corrector mechanism? The only one that's close is the Sharp 20k which has the DLP problems (RBE, noise, throw distance). What else is out there, at that price level, that is just as close?

So the question to those who absolutely must have correct colors... Even though it will cost you more to get the RS1 + color corrector, wouldn't you say the combo is probably one of the best offerings out there for the price?

And for the InFocus dude...here's some questions for ya: If the RS1 had the color corrections and cost another 2k, would you still argue that the InFocus is better? The RS1 will have it beat in almost every other area. Also, how many CRT projectors have an ANSI contrast above 300?

I am coming in on the end of this color debate so I have not read all of this thread.

As an ISF calibrator I know what accurate color images look like. I have been fortunate enough to talk at length and often with Joe Kane and Joel Silver about calibration and test material and equipment.

IMO in this day and age there is NO EXCUSE to offer a video display device with NON ADJUSTABLE COLOR CONTROLS.

JVC took the low road on the RS-1 and I saw this first hand in my own room comparing it to the far more accurate InFocus SP 777 of my own. There has to be a boat load of compromises made to get a unit down to this price level.

The JVC left a few days later back to where it came from. I was that disappointed with it.

Most folks here are not as familiar with good images as they are still far back on the learning curve. I don't sell magazines so I don't need to make advertisers or editor/mag owners happy.

I can sell most anything but I recommend very few. If my customer wants something I KNOW to be flawed I point these flaws out in full disclosure and then when things go wrong it is on them and not me. I will still help but not on my dime as I told them in advance this was going to happen.

JVC made a choice to sell a flawed non adjustable color spectrum to mostly unknowing JOE SIX PACK.
Weather this comes back to haunt them only time will tell.

Fortunately there are far more accurate choices out there and some cost even less than the JVC. Good ISF calibrators know these choices and make this info available to those who desire an accurate image and not cartoons or painted ladies of the night.

I also find the JVC to be far to soft and very flat looking due to is low ANSI contrast around 290.

I think the new IN 82 by InFocus is going to get some JVC converts as it will deal with all of the flaws the JVC has and be good enough in the contrast area. Time will tell.


Yeah, until the obsessive/compulsive hobbyists start nitpicking the IN82 to death!!... :p

Unless someone has inside info what else is their to speculate about.

I know my low post count might lead you to think I'm a newbie, but I have been around this forum from the very beginning. Speculation is what we do! :p

I'd like to know the following: Let's say the color correction unit cost 2K (I hope it's 1/4th of that). Would you be able to find any other projector currently on the market that offers all the advantages of the RS1 for the cost of RS1 plus color corrector mechanism? The only one that's close is the Sharp 20k which has the DLP problems (RBE, noise, throw distance). What else is out there, at that price level, that is just as close?

So the question to those who absolutely must have correct colors... Even though it will cost you more to get the RS1 + color corrector, wouldn't you say the combo is probably one of the best offerings out there for the price?

It is for me provided the implementation doesn't introduce new artifacts that become a distraction. I would like to understand how the external implementation can mitigate the bit depth issue raised earlier.

It is for me provided the implementation doesn't introduce new artifacts that become a distraction. I would like to understand how the external implementation can mitigate the bit depth issue raised earlier.

+1

Still really hoping a good solution comes out, though, because I *really* like the projector except for this one flaw. :)

Best Regards,
Doug

The only one that's close is the Sharp 20k which has the DLP problems (RBE, noise, throw distance).

Plus its anemic lumen output and very restrictive placement possibilities (you said that = throw distance).

Here are decoded and transformed to RGB images capped from the Universal Studios DVD. These are native-rez (anamorphic) lossless (jpeg compression alters levels).



Thanks for this - the important thing to note about the StudioRGB is your monitor needs adjusted so the black&white levels are black&white not gray and washed out - that will put color luminance at proper levels in comparison. Is there a method you use that is commonly available to capture these (TheaterTek snapshot does not work for me)? The more people can do this when they post their snapshots - the better. It shows you what the picture should look like (or at least the differences since viewing monitors may not be calibrated). Also did you do the RGB transform for constraining the HD gamut down to SD (SMPTE-C) on these - since sRGB is same as REC709 (you said DVD - so I presume you meant this is SD source not HD source)?

Now look at the image processed version of it - see how the background almost looks like a natural B&W photograph - that indicates that not one color is popped over the other. The Greens are not pushed more than the Blues - even though the DP may have pushed the film or DVD colors (or this is SD color pushed to HD) - it is a consistent push - and still looks realistic other than the more neutral coat not being pushed as well.

http://krasmuzik.biz/reviews/seabiscuita_srgb.jpg

Here is the original compare - - I can see that the blues are pushed in the grayscale of the bottom pic - and impacting the sky and snow caps (could be camera - could be PJ). greens are pushed in the gamut/decoding in the top pic pushing the grass to the forefront - it is not a grayscale issue since you cannot see the snowcaps - they are black which means not colored in this processing.

http://krasmuzik.biz/reviews/cowboy.jpg

It is for me provided the implementation doesn't introduce new artifacts that become a distraction. I would like to understand how the external implementation can mitigate the bit depth issue raised earlier.


Keep in mind that color gamut correction may push a red from [254 0 0] to [239 4 0] in 8-bit - which would be something like in 12-bit [239-3/16 3-15/16 0] . So you will have to see if corrected gamut is worth more to you than than potential color loss with dithering/banding/clipping potential. An error you see all the time vs. an error that rears its head occasionally. Even if digital has the 8-bit limits - switch to analog which has 10-bit DAC/ADC - and again you further tradeoff corrected analog vs. uncorrected digital.

You know what...stop. That is just going a bit too far.

Vigga - guess you have not been blessed in the past from Mr Fleecer's sage advice that puts all of us Joe Six Pack's in our place. InFocus has a bright future with such enlightened souls representing their products.

Well I am going to head off to the other end of the trailer to watch my RS1 now. Sure wish they would put a "this side up warning" on them new fangled DVD's. The missus gets real cranky when nuthin happens when I slam the DVD in. Almost as bad as havin them damn black bars on the screen. Allen - can yur caleebrashun get rid of them too?

Almost as bad as havin them damn black bars on the screen. Allen - can yur caleebrashun get rid of them too?

Kerry,

The way I understand it, an ISF tech, specially one versed in color science and video engineering should be able to dislodge, with ease, a Phillips Pronto Pro remote that " accidentally" has found its way into a person's southern region. Using trigonometry, visual perception models, a pipe wrench, and a little bit of vaseline they apparently can work their magic.

Make sure, however, that your ISF tech is well versed in color science and video engineering, otherwise you might as well have Joe Sixpack, or Joe Blow, at your service. Because apparently, as well intended as they might be, they dont have the visual expertise required and in the heat of the moment they MIGHT mistake for the Phillips Pronto Pro another piece of equipment which you highly value, that they might not have the requisite visual experience required to "manipulate" (very sensitive piece of equipment.)

But yes, I believe if it is something as simple as getting the black bars removed a simple ISF tech, armed with masking tape SHOULD, its highly likely but there is a chance of failure - you do get what you pay for here, be able to make the black bars disappear with minimum (lets say it wont be noticeable if the lights were off, and so was the projector) visual distraction to you and your wife. 8)

JVC made a choice to sell a flawed non adjustable color spectrum to mostly unknowing JOE SIX PACK.
Weather this comes back to haunt them only time will tell.



Whether this will create a storm about them making this choice only time will tell.

Scott

Thanks for this - the important thing to note about the StudioRGB is your monitor needs adjusted so the black&white levels are black&white not gray and washed out - that will put color luminance at proper levels in comparison.
Correct. These are only relative for each of their perspective cal points. I capped and posted them both ways for both perspectives. I have no way of knowing which environment a given person is calibrated for. The kool-aid flows deep. I also noted the volume of their perspective possibly valid 8-bit codewords. Your computations earlier assumed ~16.7 million possible. In terms of possibly valid 8-bit codeword triads, this would only be true for sRGB (256^3). For StudioRGB levels, the number of possibly valid 8-bit codeword triads would only be ~10.6 million. (220^3). If your earlier computations were with StudioRGB levels, I believe ~36% of those possible 16.7 million codewords are classified as representing invalid colors and those ‘errors’ that land in that range shouldn’t be counted, as the entire 36% are already ‘errors’ or invalid for StudioRGB. Over the possibly valid 8-bit RGB codeword range, StudioRGB is more like 7.7 bits. Once calibrated for their perspective levels, I don’t think anyone should perceive any difference at all in the images I posted though.

Is there a method you use that is commonly available to capture these (TheaterTek snapshot does not work for me)? The more people can do this when they post their snapshots - the better. It shows you what the picture should look like (or at least the differences since viewing monitors may not be calibrated).

There’s lot of ways with an HTPC. I used the ffdshow ‘grab’ function and grab to lossless .png (jpeg will alter levels). If you’re rendering to a VMR9 surface, you can use the ‘printscreen’ key. Of course, it won’t be unscaled, native rez and color/level netural unless your VMR9 renderer is setup native rez and color/level netural.

Also did you do the RGB transform for constraining the HD gamut down to SD (SMPTE-C) on these - since sRGB is same as REC709 (you said DVD - so I presume you meant this is SD source not HD source)?
I used the Nvidea video decoder (I believe the same as TT) and don’t have an option that I can control to select the color space targets. As noted, it was SD capped from the Universal Studio DVD (as the 720 horz res would indicate.) Also as noted, this was a 2.35 anamorphic DVD so the black bars are encoded and ffdshow AR control was used to cap it ‘deanamorphized’.

My CIE chart was relative to sRGB/Rec.709 however. I included reference to it show that I believe I know what in gamut and on gamut colors look like. I think the second SeaBiscuit cap looks hyper-saturated to me even with an on gamut display. (Or they’ve pumped a lot or nitrogen into that grass in the field) I believe my caps are color neutral and show how it was mastered, encoded and released on the DVD. Directors intent and artistic liberty? I think many of the scenes are mastered and encoded somewhat hot it terms of color saturation on SeaBiscuit. I think it's also one of the reasons many like it and think it really ‘pops’ and think it demo / reference worthy. It has that Technicolor or Kodachrome look that can be borderline over-the-top colorwise at the source.
Now look at the image processed version of it - see how the background almost looks like a natural B&W photograph - that indicates that not one color is popped over the other. The Greens are not pushed more than the Blues - even though the DP may have pushed the film or DVD colors (or this is SD color pushed to HD) - it is a consistent push - and still looks realistic other than the more neutral coat not being pushed as well.
Here is the original compare - - I can see that the blues are pushed in the grayscale of the bottom pic - and impacting the sky and snow caps (could be camera - could be PJ). greens are pushed in the gamut/decoding in the top pic pushing the grass to the forefront - it is not a grayscale issue since you cannot see the snowcaps - they are black which means not colored in this processing.
I agree the image of the cowboy out on the range I posted looks very natural to me as it’s encoded on the DVD. I also agree that the other two didn’t really. (That, and your question / request is what prompted me to peddle over to BB and rent the DVD and do the caps. :D )

My reference to what the DP may have pushed was not this scene but many others like the fence/field. I perceive those to be goosed at the source.

Dave

JVC made a choice to sell a flawed non adjustable color spectrum to mostly unknowing JOE SIX PACK.
Weather this comes back to haunt them only time will tell.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Learn how to spell before throwing disparaging labels around. I like my Red Tail Ale. And, I do buy it in a SIX PACK.

I also find the JVC to be far to soft and very flat looking due to is low ANSI contrast around 290.

My JVC is not soft looking at all and definitely not flat either.

I also find the JVC to be far to soft and very flat looking due to is low ANSI contrast around 290.

Well... I hope you enjoy watching your ANSI checkerboards. I'll be watching my movies!

im in ur project0r, saturatin ur c0l0rz

You could argue that the RS1 is accurate: just for DCI rather than rec.709 :D

Seriously though I'll be moving to a HTPC platform for HD-DVD and BD in the next 6 months ( time allowing). If I can get all my video apps using a VMR pipeline and I can get stop each indivual bit of software from overwriting the LUT in the graphics card I'll be profiling my HD1 and hopefully correctional 1d luts will be enough to get within reasonable aims of rec.709. The alternative is to use software 3d luts but I doubt this is going to be practical with the majority of windows apps.

Either with Spyder2pro which works just fine on my workstation PC at home for rec.709.

Or I've recently got access to Cinespace but I'll have to look into the site licencing issues. I found a couple of i1 D2 sensors knocking about at my new workplace so I'll be having a fiddle with tham against my spyder2 at some point.

Seriously though I'll be moving to a HTPC platform for HD-DVD and BD in the next 6 months ( time allowing). If I can get all my video apps using a VMR pipeline and I can get stop each indivual bit of software from overwriting the LUT in the graphics card I'll be profiling my HD1 and hopefully correctional 1d luts will be enough to get within reasonable aims of rec.709. The alternative is to use software 3d luts but I doubt this is going to be practical with the majority of windows apps.
Wait a minute....maybe I have the wrong guy, but aren't you the industry pro that likes the oversaturated colors? I apologize in advance if I have the wrong person.

Wait a minute....maybe I have the wrong guy, but aren't you the industry pro that likes the oversaturated colors? I apologize in advance if I have the wrong person.


What I honestly said was I have yet to find the over-saturation objectionable. Not that this renders me or anyone else similarly undisaffected with the oversaturation issue as persona non grata

I do however like to tweak. Even if the HD1 metered just fine and dandy according to a rec709 spec I'd probably still be fiddling about with Luts on my HTPC... because I can.

If one is really bothered by the RS1 gamut and wants to get their hands dirty and not wait for JVC, it likely something could be done today on the HTPC (in realtime- if you have the horsepower) if you know the points you want to morph from and to.

There is a plugin for Avisynth called ColorMatrix designed to twist between Rec.601/Rec.709/SMPTE 240M/FCC. It’s all GPL and the sourcecode is posted.


ColorMatrix v2.0 is based on the original ColorMatrix filter by Wilbert Dijkhof.
When converting from RGB to YUV and vice versa there are multiple sets of coefficients that can be used. The most common are Rec.709, FCC, Rec.601 (aka SMPTE 170M or ITU-R BT.470-2), and SMPTE 240M. The purpose of ColorMatrix is to recalculate the values of a YUV video that has been converted from RGB using one set of coefficients to what the values would be had it been converted from RGB using a different set of coefficients. The reason this is useful is that MPEG-2 streams typically use Rec.709, whereas most computer software (XviD/DivX decoders, etc...) assumes Rec.601. Thus, if you take an MPEG-2 stream using Rec.709 and pass it as YUV to a decoder which upsamples to RGB using Rec.601 the colors will be slightly off. In this case, you could use ColorMatrix to convert the video from Rec.709 to Rec.601 and then pass it to the decoder. Another example is if you capture video with software that uses Rec.601 and then want to encode it to MPEG-2 using an encoder that assumes Rec.709.

At first glance, it would appear that to accomplish its task ColorMatrix would need to internally convert to RGB using the source coefficients and then convert back to YUV using the new coefficients. However, this is not the case. What colormatrix actually does is compute the inverse matrix of the source coefficients (gives a matrix for doing YUV->RGB) and then multiplies that matrix with the new coefficient matrix. This gives a set of coefficients for doing the conversion directly from YUV to YUV.

ColorMatrix supports YV12 and YUY2 colorspaces, and can convert between Rec.709, FCC, Rec.601, and SMPTE 240M using scaled (16-235/16-240) or non-scaled (0-255/0-255) coefficients.
Then there’s the possible bit-depth isuues that krasmuzic has brought up. I personally don’t think it would be near that bad in practice. Just because a codeword is duplicated or rounded a single level, it doesn’t automatically mean it will be perceptible to the HVS with real world video material with real-world displays and environments. Maybe it will on rare occasion or special circumstances (synthetic test patterns) but I kinda doubt it from a practical, real-world perspective. (WAG)

Dave

Wait a minute....maybe I have the wrong guy, but aren't you the industry pro that likes the oversaturated colors? I apologize in advance if I have the wrong person.
I've read a whole bunch of posts from him and he never said that at all. He said yes he can see them but doesn't find them objectionable. Same as 90% of the owners though I;m sure someone will start howling about how:
A. How do you know that's number is accurate, I didn't like it blah blah blah...
B. It doesn't matter of 90% like it because they are the "uneducated masses".

In general I take you to be a guy that justs wants to educate on this issue Bob butI can't help but find it really strange how Mr. D's comments can get turned into "likes the oversaturated colors", especially when he has stated his opinion so clearly. Oh well, I've now read several insults towards him from the color nazis, I guess it;s not enough that a person be able to see the color inaccuracies, in order to qualify as a card carrying videophile they also need to find them objectionable and be upset about them.

Geez, there were no insults intended. You guys are so incredibly sensitive about this issue. I politely asked if he was the one who liked the colors because that was how I remembered it - I didn't go back to research it because I didn't think it was very important either way. I even apologized in advance if I had the wrong person because I wasn't even sure it was him. So now, just to clear the air, I'm sorry and I didn't mean anything by my question, as I honestly thought he liked the oversaturated colors and I was confused as to why he would want to correct them if he liked them as they are. My Mistake. I'm not Allen Fleener.

Fair enough, than I overreacted. I just remember you two posting in the same threads a lot so I assumed you remembered his statements.

B. It doesn't matter of 90% like it because they are the "uneducated masses".



It doesn't matter to me, because I am in the 10% that do mind.

How can I join the 90? :) I would like to know. I am genuinely happy for them, too, BTW.

I am not a real PITA videophile. I enjoyed my LT-150 for many years. :)

Best Regards,
Doug

It doesn't matter to me, because I am in the 10% that do mind.

How can I join the 90? I would like to know. I am genuinely happy for them, too, BTW.

I am not a real PITA videophile. I enjoyed my LT-150 for many years.

Best Regards,
Doug


Sorry, Doug. 8(

What some of the other guys have done is bought Sharp 12k IIs and have seemed pretty happy with their colors. Hopefully, youll get a fix soon, but if something like that bothered me that much, I would get rid of it and get something else.

I have heard several very good things about the BenQ W10000 and W9000. I thought very hard about both of those, because I didnt know how much more I could be without a projector. Im sure I would be happy if I ended up getting one, although I would probably always be wondering about the RS1.

I also noted the volume of their perspective possibly valid 8-bit codewords. Your computations earlier assumed ~16.7 million possible. In terms of possibly valid 8-bit codeword triads, this would only be true for sRGB (256^3). For StudioRGB levels, the number of possibly valid 8-bit codeword triads would only be ~10.6 million. (220^3). If your earlier computations were with StudioRGB levels, I believe ~36% of those possible 16.7 million codewords are classified as representing invalid colors and those ‘errors’ that land in that range shouldn’t be counted, as the entire 36% are already ‘errors’ or invalid for StudioRGB. Over the possibly valid 8-bit RGB codeword range, StudioRGB is more like 7.7 bits.

Dave

The banding is evenly distributed thru the gradient - basically every 16 codes for the red ramp. So yes you lose the step in footroom which may be never shown - headroom goes both ways if should/should not be shown. Because of the even distribution of the banding - I would expect the same 10% hit even when you consider the invalid ones for YCbCr translations - but would have to simulate it - you could hit none of the banded codes - or all of them for all I know.

I did do the HD to SD correction on the image - the difference is mostly in the face red push. The grass is actually not at all a saturated green - if you look at the RGB values you see it is actually desaturated pastel but dim green - so any HD 2 SD gamut changes are barely noticeable in this image so not worth posting. The blues did not change at all - which is only place any gradients might have been seen.

Very good information about ColorMatrix -that might solve the SD vs. HD gamut TTDVD issues - connect to FFDSHOW I guess? Nice trick of merging the matrix transforms it does. Maybe a calibrator would be nice enough to put up a matrix for JVC if anyone actually cared to further the state of the art.

You could argue that the RS1 is accurate: just for DCI rather than rec.709 :D



In fact I did argue that - but sadly only people like you that sneak work home...get to enjoy it in proper form - actually I guess that would not work without HDMI1.3 new extended component color features...never mind.....unless you have some way of obtaining the uncompressed unprotected DigitalCinema RGB in it's full glory.....so the PJ thinks it is just computer data rather than highly secure video...

Now if you could just leak some DigitalCinema masters onto the net.... :p

In fact I did argue that - but sadly only people like you that sneak work home.....

Now if you could just leak some DigitalCinema masters onto the net.... :p

I'd never do that : it would be like a doctor deliberately injuring a patient or a priest interfering with an altar boy.

I've even chewed people out for doing similar ( less forgiving people would have sacked them on the spot). Its just something you do not do.

Saying that I never handle the final graded material I'm further up the post production chain so it would look way whackier than the comparatively minor oversaturation issue on the HD1. The colour differences between the raw camera footage and the final shots would be met with disbelief by you guys.

it would be like... a priest interfering with an altar boy.

Isn't this common practice?

:D

Isn't this common practice?

:D

I was wondering how long it would take....well done :D

I was wondering how long it would take....well done :D
It took about as long as it took me to notice the funky colors on the RS1 (nanoseconds). ;)

Thank God there are people with your vast integrity and expertise to help the peons of the world. As far as the Infocus 82 which "will deal with "all the flaws the JVC has", it's just ashame that PJ will foist potential rainbows on all the "unknowing JOE SIX PACK's". Then again, maybe you aren;t bothered by rainbows just like some people aren't bother by slightly inaccurate colors. I am still concerned though, you aren't a JOE SIX PACK, are you Allen? "Good enough contrast"??? You may know what good color is but not black. OMG, you are a JOE SIX PACK.

I think it is clear to most people here that Fleener has no credibility left and has basically gone off the deep end.

He finds the RS1 "far to (sic) soft"! Uh.....ok! :rolleyes:

Why is it that so many installers for pro Infocus? Do they make an extra cushy margin on them?

Most dealers choose them because they are brighter and can overcome room issues and ISF guys choose them because they are very accurate. They are also great values to our customers.



I have a Sony VPH 1292 9" CRT hanging from the ceiling so I know blacks and contrast ratio.

The SP 777 beats this CRT in ALL areas but absolute black and and absolute resolution. the SP 777 has better color, white field uniformity, focus, ANSI contrast, convergence, light output, gray scale, ETC.

I don't fault folks who bought the RS-1 as being bad or something. Just the ones who try to tell you how great this average projector is. It is NOT THAT GREAT. IT IS AVERAGE at best. I feel the same way about the ruby and pearl. and many other units.

Those on the fence need to know this. At some point we were all Joe Six Pack. Many here still are. In time they will move beyond this. Buying the RS-1 will do very little to help them to grow. As it will not expand their frame of reference. But rather hold them down with inaccurate images becoming their frame of reference.


Comparing a CRT RPTV to a front projector is like comparing apples to oranges. RPTV's are seriously compromised and are never great displays. They look as good as they do because most folks sit very far from them and this distance hides a lot of flaws in the image.


As for rainbows I see none on my SP 777. IF and I say IF you see them then you will need to make wise choices. I have NEVER had a customer mention it or complain yet. Funny how EVERY ONE here sees them. Hummm

I am passionate about my video and audio. I am not as passionate as Joe Kane. I am however very grateful that he is as passionate as he is. This has brought to the consumer choices that would not be here were he not in this industry doing the great things he is doing.

I know for me once I have attained great and accurate images average is not an option and I will never go back. It is the same for my audio as well.

It is NOT THAT GREAT. IT IS AVERAGE at best. Of course! Pretty much every single reviewer in the world raves about it, and they're all wrong.

I feel the same way about the ruby and pearl. and many other units. ... but not, I bet, the one brand you sell. Gee.

Allen, I've seen similar posts of yours in other threads. Just a word to the wise; with statements like the above you consistently come across as having zero credibility. Just so you know.

I don't fault folks who bought the RS-1 as being bad or something. Just the ones who try to tell you how great this average projector is. It is NOT THAT GREAT. IT IS AVERAGE at best.

Those on the fence need to know this. At some point we were all Joe Six Pack. Many here still are. In time they will move beyond this. Buying the RS-1 will do very little to help them to grow. As it will not expand their frame of reference. But rather hold them down with inaccurate images becoming their frame of reference.

I am passionate about my video and audio. I know for me once I have attained great and accurate images average is not an option and I will never go back.
That was some fun reading there. I believe you accidentally took the wrong exit a few miles back and ended up in the digital projector forum. I believe you were looking for the CRT forum. There you will find a good number of fellow self-delusionals that like to engage in constant self-masturbatory statements about those "poor dumb folk" that don't know what a good image is, without it ever occurring to them that the same comments could be applied to them. Personally, I'm just so disappointed that you would settle for the poor contrast and resolution of the SP 777. I submit that you are a pretender sir, a wannabe. That SP777 is "not helping you to grow". It is "holding you down". Could you post some more of that stuff? If makes for good comedy.

I don't fault folks who bought the RS-1 as being bad or something. Just the ones who try to tell you how great this average projector is. It is NOT THAT GREAT. IT IS AVERAGE at best.

The Barco DP100 is the best non film projector I've seen. The HS1/RS1 gets very close in quite a few areas. Describing it as an average projector is slightly puzzling. Quite a few people use the HD10k for professional broadcast and film work and I'd have to say the RS1 beats the pants off that.

I think it is clear to most people here that Fleener has no credibility left and has basically gone off the deep end.

He finds the RS1 "far to (sic) soft"! Uh.....ok! :rolleyes:


Rob as a customer of mine and one who in the past has valued my input in choosing equipment, I am saddened to see you post this. :(

You, more so than others here, should know the level of professionalism and care I strive for in achieving accurate images, both audio and video.

While you did not get your DWIN ISF'ed and sadly you can't get the RS-1 done you should keep a more open mind to those who have seen properly calibrated displays. Since they may in fact be seeing things that you up til now have not.
Comparing your earlier wrong image to your new and better wrong image is like two wrongs not making a right.

I understand that you bought and love your RS-1. You should also understand that IMO it is not as great as you would like it to be or have others here believe. I don't want you to have buyers remorse but I see a need to correct the misinformation that some here are spreading with regard to this unit. I did the same with the Ruby and Pearl.

Yes it is soft. As are the Ruby and Pearl. And this is but one issue. :mad:

AS I said in an earlier post, in this day and age there is no reason to sell projectors with inaccurate color and no ability to calibrate it. JVC screwed the pooch on this one. They chose deliberately to built the RS-1 WRONG.

I for the life of me can't understand why anyone would support this line of thinking. :confused: Unless they did not know better, or even worse they bought one sight unseen. :eek:

As for rainbows I see none on my SP 777. IF and I say IF you see them then you will need to make wise choices. I have NEVER had a customer mention it or complain yet. Funny how EVERY ONE here sees them. Hummm
You must really think we're a bunch of dummies. I would hazzard a guess that NO ONE has ever seen rainbows in a 3 chip machine. People see them on 1 chip machines with COLOR WHEELS. Why do I have to exlain this to a friggin' DEALER??? You're a DEALER!!! I pity your customers.

But the other compromises of the 777 are just too great; poor contrast and 720p. Excuse me while I enjoy my RS1.

Yes it is soft. As are the Ruby and Pearl. And this is but one issue. :mad:

Soft = not as sharp as the sharpest DLPs? Please, stop the nonsense. While it is true that not all RS1 have the same amount of convergence error the ones with very good convergence are not soft by any reasonable definition of soft.

Soft = not as sharp as the sharpest DLPs? Please, stop the nonsense. While it is true that not all RS1 have the same amount of convergence error the ones with very good convergence are not soft by any reasonable definition of soft.

Thank you.

I will take mhafner's opinion 20x over before taking Fleeners.

You must really think we're a bunch of dummies. I would hazzard a guess that NO ONE has ever seen rainbows in a 3 chip machine. People see them on 1 chip machines with COLOR WHEELS. Why do I have to exlain this to a friggin' DEALER??? You're a DEALER!!! I pity your customers.

But the other compromises of the 777 are just too great; poor contrast and 720p. Excuse me while I enjoy my RS1.
I'm not trying to side with Allen, but 3 chip dlp can have rainbows as well.

Furthermore, the 777 is overall a VERY impressive machine... anyone who has seen one will no doubt agree.


Continue on... :D

While you did not get your DWIN ISF'ed and sadly you can't get the RS-1 done you should keep a more open mind to those who have seen properly calibrated displays. Since they may in fact be seeing things that you up til now have not.
Comparing your earlier wrong image to your new and better wrong image is like two wrongs not making a right.



Classic.

Hey Allen, my DWIN could not be ISF'ed any more than the RS1 can be! You are an ISF tech, you should know that! :rolleyes:

As far as keeping an open mind, I do. Just because I vehemently disagree with some of the things you say, and particularly the way you say it, does not mean that I do not have an open mind.

As someone whose MAIN CONCERN in purchasing the RS1 was whether it would be "soft" compared to DLP, I can tell you point blank: it is NOT SOFT, and in fact is noticeably sharper than my 720p DLP was. Period.

I think it is all a matter of preference and priority in what each person finds most important in image quality. I recently saw an SP777 and in my opinion its overall image quality is better than that of the RS-1. The RS-1 has higher resolution, and that is the one area where it is hands down better than the 777. But as far as contrast goes, it is a mixed bag. The RS-1, because of its very high on/off CR, does better in very dark scenes, but in medium and bright scenes the high ANSI of the 777, coupled with its very high light output, kicks the RS-1's butt (again, IN MY OPINION), not to mention the better quality optics of the InFocus. And of course the 777 has absolutely gorgeous, accurate colors...;)

I am waiting to see what CEDIA will bring, including JVC's fix for the RS-1's oversaturated colors, but if nothing better comes along, I am seriously considering the 777 as a replacement for my RS-1 even though it would be a downgrade in resolution and on/off CR. If I could buy a 1080p version of the 777, I would buy it immediately and without hesitation.

Yes, the colors of the RS-1 bother me that much...:(

I think it is all a matter of preference and priority in what each person finds most important in image quality.(
Agreed, of course it is, and my jokes about the SP 777 were directed at Alan, the SP 777 is also a great PJ that may be just the ticket for a lot of folks.

I'm not trying to side with Allen, but 3 chip dlp can have rainbows as well.
Furthermore, the 777 is overall a VERY impressive machine... anyone who has seen one will no doubt agree.
Continue on... :DHow can a 3-chip anything have rainbows? The color wheel is the source of RBE.

I think the sharpness issue DLP vs. LCoS is a matter of fill factor. There is a larger space between pixels on a DLP and therefore you have induced a sort of edge enhancement. LCoS is considered to be "softer" in comparison to DLP, while being more natural, film-like. Coming from CRT, the RS1 has more sharpness/detail while retaining the film-like image, I like it.

I thoroughly enjoyed watching Seabiscuit HD last night, however, the color on the RS1 needed to be set to -30 for the skin tones to look natural. With DVE HD-DVD, color is correct at "0", the Seabiscuit DVD is over saturated. It was clear to see where they enhanced the green infield of the race track during post production.

I think the sharpness issue DLP vs. LCoS is a matter of fill factor. There is a larger space between pixels on a DLP and therefore you have induced a sort of edge enhancement.The fill factor on the RS1 and 1080p DLPs is almost identical, about 89%.

I thoroughly enjoyed watching Seabiscuit HD last night, however, the color on the RS1 needed to be set to -30 for the skin tones to look natural. With DVE HD-DVD, color is correct at "0", the Seabiscuit DVD is over saturated.You have corrected saturation by severely reducing the color luminance. This is NOT an improvement. You've merely traded one type of inaccuracy for another. The net change is likely less accurate color, rather than more accurate.

Regarding the softness issue, subjectively at least it seemed to me that the RS1 is at least competitive with 1-chip DLPs in this regard, which the SXRDs certainly were not. Any differences in this regard are small enough that you'd have to view the 2 side-by-side to see which was sharper. Of course, there is an extra variable of panel alignment which will vary from unit to unit, but on the one I saw it looked quite sharp.

But the other compromises of the 777 are just too great; poor contrast and 720p.720p yes, but "poor contrast"? The 777 gets about 4000:1 on/off and 500-600:1 ANSI. That is not "poor" by any reasonable definition. The difference between 4000:1 and 12000:1 on the vast majority of viewing material would be invisible.

720p yes, but "poor contrast"? The 777 gets about 4000:1 on/off and 500-600:1 ANSI.
Mea culpa - I did not realize it had such high ANSI.

Perhaps the problem comes from the fact that there are extremely high-end enthusiasts buying the RS1 and comparing it to projectors that (when debuted) had an MSRP of $10K or more. Maybe those projectors can be had for cheaper now, but why are we comparing a $6299 MSRP to a projector (Infocus ScreenPlay 777) that had an MSRP of $29999 when it came out? Is that really fair?

Remember the JVC has an MSRP only 300 above the Panasonic AE1000U ($5999). Yes, the AE1000U streets for a lot less, but what are we comparing here? Remember, the real competition is all 1080p LCDs, the Sony SXRDs and the lower end 1080p single chip DLP projectors. The competition is not the InFocus 777 or the 1080p Marantz etc. That's a different target audience.

This is not a great analogy, but it's similar to comparing a Celeron laptop made today to a high end Pentium M laptop from 2 years ago. The celeron may cost $500 and is rated at a higher ghz, more ram, etc... The average joe would think it's better than buying a used high-end Pentium M from 2 yrs ago... but when you look at all of the innards, including the graphics card, the type of RAM it uses, the overall craftsmanship of the laptop, you will see that your 2 yr old laptop is still better than a brand new crap celeron laptop.

Now the analogy isn't good because the RS1 is definitely not the Celeron of projectors, but if we are talking about audience, then yes it is the same.

Are you guys just expecting too much out of this thing?

Good point.
I'd also like to point out, again, that the 777, no matter how good it is, is a beast of a projector with far more limited installation flexibility than the RS1. Sure, if my room could take it, I'd gladly accept a 777, but it can't. So I have an RS1 - great flexibility, nice big screen and a company that's willing to admit there is a problem and say that a solution is on the way. I haven't ever seen an Infocus rep on these boards during my several years here. Was Optoma here when all of the H79 bulbs were failing left and right? Was Sony here when convergence on the Pearl was in the gutter? Why are you belittling the fact that we have a manufacturer presence here who has acknowledge a problem and saying they are wroking on a solution. If JVC is screwing the pooch, and delibrately doing things, then why on earth would they be here participating in this conversation? your logic simply doesn't fit.

Regarding the softness issue, subjectively at least it seemed to me that the RS1 is at least competitive with 1-chip DLPs in this regard, which the SXRDs certainly were not. Any differences in this regard are small enough that you'd have to view the 2 side-by-side to see which was sharper. Of course, there is an extra variable of panel alignment which will vary from unit to unit, but on the one I saw it looked quite sharp.

Glad to see another highly respected and knowledgeable person chime in on the sharpness (softness) issue. I agree with the above 100% (including the statement that SXRD's were certainly NOT competitive with 1 chip DLP's re sharpness). :cool: