I have a Sanyo Z4 720p projector that I really love. I have recently upped the HD content in my setup by getting the Canon HV20 HD camcorder that captures video in the HDV format at 1440 x 1080 and buying a PS3 to play Blu-Ray discs, which are encoded at 1080p resolutions.

The Z4 at the time was considered one of the sharpest displays at that price point. Obviously I understand the pixel math between the 720p and 1080p resolution.

My question for those who have made the jump is how much of a WOW factor there was for you when watching HD content at 1080p vs. your prior 720p projector? I am leaning toward waiting at least another year for 1080p, but I just wondered what some of your upgrade experiences were like?

Thanks.

Although I, like you, have NOT made the jump from 720p to 1080i I have decided to wait at least until September to see what is announced at CEDIA...at this point -- so late in the HT Year -- I think it only prudent to see what will be released in the next 6 months before jumping ship...after all, I have lived with 720p for now and been quite happy...

I should also add that the WOW factor depends on so many factors...room conditions, quality of source material, quality of initial 720p projector, distance from seating to screen, etc. that it may be very difficult to get an answer to your questions...with that in mind I do suggest that you visit a few stores that have both 720p and 1080p and see for yourself....this is what I did and came away without that WOW factor after a number of visits to different stores...that is NOT to say that the current crop of 1080p projectors are neither good nor better than my 720p projector, I just felt that the differences were EVOLUTIONAL rather than REVOLUTIONAL and I am looking for the later...of primary concern was the lack of brightness as I like/need/want a light canon as I often have buddies over for football and need a projector bright enough for other than bat cave conditions...

HTH...

Although I, like you, have NOT made the jump from 720p to 1080i I have decided to wait at least until Sepetember to see what is announced at CEDIA...at this point -- so late in the HT Year -- I think it only prudent to see what will be released in the next 6 months before jumping ship...after all, I ahve lived with 720p for now and been quite happy...

Yep, I agree with your reasoning there. So anybody out there who DID make the jump care to share? :)

Yep, I agree with your reasoning there. So anybody out there who DID make the jump care to share? :)
I just made the jump 2 weeks ago and am happy. For sometime, I have been looking at my image and just new I was missing resolution. I would have to say the jump was compared to standard DVD to 720 Bluray. Theres also numerous other factors though that have made the image better... dimming bulb, better blacks, brighter image and just being a better overall projecter.
Best advice would be to take your own demo material and see it for yourself in 1080.

How far do you sit from what size screen. Do you see pixels?(screendoor)
This is HIGH on the list of the WOW factor. I made the switch and am happy I did, but I saw pixels and wanted to go with two rows of seating. One even closer than my original.

There was a long thread on this, so do a search. I believe it was in Greece.
scott

I just made the jump 2 weeks ago and am happy. For sometime, I have been looking at my image and just new I was missing resolution. I would have to say the jump was compared to standard DVD to 720 Bluray. Theres also numerous other factors though that have made the image better... dimming bulb, better blacks, brighter image and just being a better overall projecter.
Best advice would be to take your own demo material and see it for yourself in 1080.

Thanks for the feedback. I watch my Z4 at 120" from about 13 feet seating distance, so I am assuming that I would see a good increase in detail in my current setup with a 1080p if you are saying it is comparable to going from 480p DVD to 720p Blu-Ray because even my wife could tell that we were watching HD the other night with a Blu-Ray movie on the PS3. Based on what I have read it hardly seems worth having 1080p compared to 720p if buying the "big screen" TVs that are 50 inches or so, man I love projectors :)

How far do you sit from what size screen. Do you see pixels?(screendoor)
This is HIGH on the list of the WOW factor. I made the switch and am happy I did, but I saw pixels and wanted to go with two rows of seating. One even closer than my original.

There was a long thread on this, so do a search. I believe it was in Greece.
scott

I don't notice pixels from my 13 feet seating distance at 120" on my Z4. I honestly hadn't really thought about the extra row of seating aspect, which would probably work with one closer in my setup too. My wife has even mentioned adding some extra seating, and I would have to think that 1080p would make that much less of a concern. Thanks for the thought.

Thanks for the feedback. I watch my Z4 at 120" from about 13 feet seating distance, so I am assuming that I would see a good increase in detail in my current setup with a 1080p if you are saying it is comparable to going from 480p DVD to 720p Blu-Ray because even my wife could tell that we were watching HD the other night with a Blu-Ray movie on the PS3. Based on what I have read it hardly seems worth having 1080p compared to 720p if buying the "big screen" TVs that are 50 inches or so, man I love projectors :)
Your image and seating distance is about identical to mine. I dont know how great your projecter is but my new one was better in every way... not just resolution. Thats why you guys need to demo one.
I think TomsHT just upgraded from a good 720 to the RS1... you might want to send him a message.

I have recently changed from a Panasonic PT-AE900 (720p) to the JVC DLA-HD1 (1080p) and the difference IMO is huge. HD DVD & Blu Ray look phenominal, as do both the PS3 and Xbox 360. Definately worth the step up. WOW factor for me is everytime I turn it on. Im just amazed at how much detail you can see. Dont wait! Do it now!!!!! I was not disappointed and I doubt you would be either :)

i could very easily see screen door from 14' on a 110" with the z4. it was pretty distracting. i now sit ~ 10' from the screen with an RS-1. no SDE at all. could probably go closer but i think that would be too close. the RS-1 was better in every other pq aspect as well. it was a night and day difference.

For me there was no real "wow" factor. Screen door is reduced, that is all. The parts that make up a "wow" factor are standard technological improvements (better contrast, better color reproduction, better brightness).

For me there was no real "wow" factor. Screen door is reduced, that is all. The parts that make up a "wow" factor are standard technological improvements (better contrast, better color reproduction, better brightness).

I could probably understand more of "wow" factor when upgrading to the JVC for $6K, I will have to keep my budget at around $3K or less which is why I probably should wait to see what shakes out with the trade shows this fall and pricing on current models etc. before I jump.

All I will say is - Contrast ratio/black level made the biggest difference for me when jumping from my Panasonic AE700 to the JVC RS1. 1080p is great too, but the contrast ended up being the biggest wow factor. The JVC is also a lot sharper than my panny was.. not sure if it was because fo smooth screen, but the Panny always seemed out of focus.

I don't want to steer you in the wrong direction, but avoid LCD if you can. Get a DLP or an LCOS. Even with the claimed 10,000+:1 that Mitsu, Panny and Epson are throwing at you, it's best to get something with a higher base contrast. You may want to look into the successor to the Pearl, or the new Optoma HD80.

Edit: My throw distance is about 11 feet, I sit about 12 feet back, and screen size is around 106". Still deciding on a new screen.

According to the Carlton Bale chart, with a 120" screen at 13 feet viewing distance, you will realize the full benefit of 1080p.

By contrast, I have a 100" screen with a 15 foot viewing distance, where "benefit of 1080p starts to become noticeable."

According to the Carlton Bale chart, with a 120" screen at 13 feet viewing distance, you will realize the full benefit of 1080p.

By contrast, I have a 100" screen with a 15 foot viewing distance, where "benefit of 1080p starts to become noticeable."

Thanks, good to know.

Wait on 1080p. It's mostly hype. Hopefully, the next generation will be better. There's too many issues with many of the current 1080p PJ's. Read the threads.

If everything is equal there is no doubt theat 1080 is better than 720. How much better depends on circumstances. But, many of the comparisons here are not even close. Going from a budget 720 to a highly rated 1080 is not even close to being in the same league of projectors. Of course they like the 1080 better but it wasn't just because of the resolution.

Even with similar projectors from the same manufacturer there are often other improvements in the 1080 version because it is newer. Newer processors and scalers might have to been used for the 1080 version as well as other tweaks. So it is difficult to make a very good comparison on resolution alone. There have been a a few very good attempts comparing similar models and most of the spectators found the differences to be only a slight improvement.

The question that people with limited budgets should ask is a top rated 720 a better choice than a budget 1080 if the pricing is nearly the same. Many high end 720s are being significantly discounted.

Bob

I agree 100%. A top-tier 720p PJ will give someone the same 'wow' factor over a lower-end 720p PJ. I bought into the 1080p hype with the RS1. I returned it just as fast. Not ready to prime-time yet IMHO. I went with a state-of-the-art Marantz S4 720p PJ. Better in almost every way, and $2K cheaper. I'll wait out the next gen or maybe 2 more generations. The current 1080p units have too many issues like inaccurate colorimetry, no CMS control, cheaper lens, bad processing etc.

There are some killer deals on last years units that dealers are passing along. Not to mention some insane big-box store deals on the Sharp12KMkII.

---
There are some killer deals on last years units that dealers are passing along. Not to mention some insane big-box store deals on the Sharp12KMkII.

Sorry but the deal on Sharp12K it's gone (looks like) :(. Lucky I gated one :)

My question for those who have made the jump is how much of a WOW factor there was for you when watching HD content at 1080p vs. your prior 720p projector?

I thought the picture from my Optoma H79 couldn't be beat! I was watching on a 92" wide 1.78:1 screen and a 106" wide 2.35:1 screen from about 1.5 screen widths or a little more. It looked awesome. No screen door for the most part. Great picture.

When I moved, I designed a new theater in the new house, and decided to go with a new 1080p projector. I now sit 1.2 screen widths from a 106" wide 1.78:1 screen and a 118" wide 2.35:1 screen. Watching HD DVD's and now Blu Ray movies too with our dVision 1080p projector still has me saying " wow " after racking up 99 hours on one bulb and 119 hours on the other bulb. Watched the newly remastered Blu Ray of " The Fifth Element " Sat. night with friends. They all said " wow ". It was like watching it for the first time again!! It's more than less screen door / more pixels. The picture as a whole looks more real, more 3 dimensional and more " solid ". It's far closer to the goal of " looking out a window at reality " than anything I've seen yet. At least with good HD disks ( even some standard dvd's ) and good HDTV.

The tough choice, as someone already said, is between a higher end 720P and a budget 1080p.

For example, the Sharp Z3000 720p DLP vs. the Epson or Panasonic 1080p LCD--very close in price. Any thoughts on this comparison?

As most who know have said, PROPERLY done 720P is always better than poorly done 1080P.

Resolution while important in SOME applications is not the be all and end all image parameter. It is but one. ANSI contrast is important for that 3D pop and total contrast for overall pop. Sharp focus from good glass lenses is important for total image detail and clarity and contrast too. Accurate and calibratable color is very noticeable and important.

A lot can affect the viewing experience. No one spec is to be considered the HOLY GRAIL. Great images are truly a team effort.

We just need to get educated and look past the marketing hype and the forum hype too.

As most who know have said, PROPERLY done 720P is always better than poorly done 1080P.

Resolution while important in SOME applications is not the be all and end all image parameter. It is but one. ANSI contrast is important for that 3D pop and total contrast for overall pop. Sharp focus from good glass lenses is important for total image detail and clarity and contrast too. Accurate and calibratable color is very noticeable and important.

A lot can affect the viewing experience. No one spec is to be considered the HOLY GRAIL. Great images are truly a team effort.

We just need to get educated and look past the marketing hype and the forum hype too.

I would very much agree with Allen's first statement. I just purchased a new projector and compared 1 Chip DLP and 3 Chip LCOS 1080p projectors to a 3chip 720p DLP. Street prices were all in the 5-8K range. The 3 chip 720p DLP (Infocus 777) won on overall PQ. One additional factor was I need alot of light output for a big screen in a room with ambient light.

Resolution while important in SOME applications ...

What applications would those be?

Unless you are watching on a relatively smaller screen the 1080p should be very noticeable. Whether you notice it more, or less, is a function of your sitting distance to screen size.

For every one of these guys that you see that say resolution is hype theres probably 100 who would have experienced otherwise. I have owned 2 quality 720p pjs (Sharp 10k and Sharp 12k) and 2 quality 1080p ones (VW100 and HD1) and I can tell you that it is very noticeable.

The best way to tell the difference is to go see them for yourself. Hiopefully it wont be too difficult for you to find a place locally, where you can see BD and HD-DVD being run on both a quality 1080p projector and a quality 720p one.

Catdaddy,

No one is arguing 1080 isn't better than 720 if you are comparing apples to apples. Your comparisons are with high quality PJs. Now compare a top end 720P that sold for >$10K a year ago but can be found for under $2k today and compare it to the budget 1080P projectors in the same price range and your opinion might change.

Bob

Catdaddy, No one is arguing 1080 isn't better than 720 if you are comparing apples to apples. Your comparisons are with high quality PJs. Now compare a top end 720P that sold for >$10K a year ago but can be found for under $2k today and compare it to the budget 1080P projectors in the same price range and your opinion might change.I did just that. Head-to-head the Marantz S4 vs. the RS1. The RS1 went back in minutes. Even my novice wife hated the Cartoony colors when you see accurate colors side by side.

Yes, there is Santellavision and then there is Darin and Kris Deering, two very well respected and knowledgable thinkers, who replaced their Marantz 11s1s, the current flagship 1 chip Marantz 1080p product, with RS1s and just about EVERYONE else who seems to prefer the RS1.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=865821

Take your pick.

Of course, Ernie would probably argue that the 12s4 is probably better than the 11s1.

There's too many issues with many of the current 1080p PJ's. Read the threads.

13.7% is pretty darn high for owners who are from Barely to Totally Unsatisfied. And notice I said "many" not all. ;)

Yes, there is Santellavision and then there is Darin and Kris Deering, two very well respected and knowledgable thinkers, who replaced their Marantz 11s1s, the current flagship 1 chip Marantz 1080p product, with RS1s and just about EVERYONE else who seems to prefer the RS1.
It looks like Kris might have gone with a Benq W1000?

Did he replace his RS1 with the BenQ unit, or just have one in for testing?

Wouldnt surprise me if he did, or didnt. 8)

13.7% is pretty darn high for owners who are from Barely to Totally Unsatisfied. And notice I said "many" not all.

Oh, believe me. I noticed the technicality. 8)

I think 87% for AVS forum members, who tend to be very critical of everything, is pretty damn good. Thats almost 9 for every ten, and thats just with those who have voted. 8)

The tough choice, as someone already said, is between a higher end 720P and a budget 1080p.

Can't help you there. I went from good 720p machine to outstanding 1080p machine. Once you taste filet mignon, it's hard to go back to chicken mcnuggets. I'm ruined now.....

Can't help you there. I went from good 720p machine to outstanding 1080p machine. Once you taste filet mignon, it's hard to go back to chicken mcnuggets. I'm ruined now.....

Heh heh. 8)

I would very much agree with Allen's first statement. I just purchased a new projector and compared 1 Chip DLP and 3 Chip LCOS 1080p projectors to a 3chip 720p DLP. Street prices were all in the 5-8K range. The 3 chip 720p DLP (Infocus 777) won on overall PQ. One additional factor was I need alot of light output for a big screen in a room with ambient light.


I've got an Infocus 7210 now and the thumb's up to upgrade to a better projector. Although my screen isn't large (87" wide 16:9), it's in a family room set up with the usual ambient light issues. So I'm wondering which will be the better choice: the Infocus 777 or the new IN82. It would be nice to have the IN82's new feature set (1080p, 10 bit processing, iris (probably static), HDMI 1.3, ISF night and day presets etc.) and it's probably brighter than the 7210. But the 777 is brighter still, and may have the edge in optics, native contrast, and color. I don't know that I'll get the chance see them both, but if not, hopefully there will be some insights here to tap. A wider screen may be in my future at some point as well, but probably not right out of the gates.

Aside from getting the "WOW" factor from better contrast, color saturation, etc. , (basically a better projector overall) what I'd like to simply know is about the resolution jump. How does 720P compare to 1080P? Does it just looks sharper or renders more minute details? Please post your comments.

Anyone upgraded from a Mits HD1000U? Have been considering that one if I'm getting a 720P.

With 720p for me, pixels are noticeable from my seating distance (1.25x), especially on high brightness images. With 1080p, I have to walk up to the screen and get around 4 feet away before seeing pixels. The 1080p pixels look like 1/3 the size of the 720p ones.

Even with HD titles, it's not always an issue of every pixel being used. It's hard to find anything visually that isn't computer-generated that pushes the limits of all 1080 lines, IMO. Unless you're watching pristine material and are sitting close then it's not like you're missing a lot with 720p.

It's all about distance and your vision. If I sit way far back, or my eyes are tired, then 480p looks great too. I would glady trade down from 1080p if for the same price I could get better contrast, brightness, accurate color, no rainbows, and no motion blur.

a 720p device has 2.25 as many pixels as a 16:9 480p device.

a 1080p device has 2.25 as many pixels as a 720p device.

like it or not, you will lose detail on a 720p device when feeding it a 1080p signal. just as you would lose detail on a 480p device sending it a 720p signal.

If you sit far enough away, a 480p device will look just as good as a 1080p device. I believe santellavision has a relatively small screen. I don't know what his viewing distance is, but that may account for his lack of much emotion about the loss of resolution he has experienced.

I have a modest 82" screen with seating at 10'. But, the bigger difference is that some DLP's are actually sharper and show more detail. This is because they have no convergence issues and better glass. That will null out the improvement that additional pixels gives you with the current cheap 1080p PJs.

Thanks for all comments regarding resolution jump!

TBut, the bigger difference is that some DLP's are actually sharper and show more detail. This is because they have no convergence issues and better glass. That will null out the improvement that additional pixels gives you with the current cheap 1080p PJs.

This a professional opinion, with your 28 years of experience in the industry, or a wild ass guess? 8)

Which 1080p projectors, that you have personally seen, or even just heard of, specifically, does this occur with?

I've seen two Pearls and the RS1. Actually 3 RS1's. Two had bad, uncorrectable convergence issues (1 pixel), the one I bought was about 1/2 pixel at best. And the focus when you set it at the center was very soft at the edges. That's due mostly to the budget lens.

Have any of you ever compared a lower-end factory lens on an SLR with their best glass? It's night and day. Now, imagine blowing-up that error to a 10' screen. It really shows.

Take an expensive PJ and the focus is sharp from the center to every corner. Add to that a DLP's single chip, and you have perfect convergence which makes it sharper.

Cat, no matter what I say, you just want to disagree. That's cool, it's your right.

Its not that I disagree with whatever you say, it just seems like you make stuff up as you go along.

TBut, the bigger difference is that some DLP's are actually sharper and show more detail. This is because they have no convergence issues and better glass. That will null out the improvement that additional pixels gives you with the current cheap 1080p PJs.

Pretty hard to believe that you have seen 2 Pearls and 3 RS1s and they were all so bad that your 720p pj shows more detail. I guess anything is possible, even if its 1 in 100 million.

I thought about this, and I dont think its possible for a 720p pj to show more detail than a 1080p pj. It might look cleaner, but screen door, and detail arent really debatable.

Besides, if you did find any 1080p pj that had such atrocious convergence and the lens was so distorting that it will, as you say, "null out" any improvement the additional pixels 1080p gives you over 720p, as freaking outrageous to believe as that is, that it would be obviously be defective and easily replacable.

Also, amazingly, you are the first one to mention this particular defect (to the extent that it mutes the 1080p as irrelevant) with the RS1, and amazingly you have noticed it on the only 3 RS1s you have seen. And then on top of that the two Pearls you have seen.

Astonishingly, the guy who bought the RS1 you had for a week didnt mention any of these issues. Maybe he, like everyone else who has bought defective RS1s are just remaining silent because they are embarssed they bought such cheap projectors? The reviewers too?

Lasty, your 12s4 is NOT an expensive projector. It could be had for $2800 to $4000. That is cheaper than the RS1, the Pearl, the BenQ 10000, the Sharp 20k, and most of the other 1080p pjs. Do you really believe that the lens on that projector costs more than the RS1 and yet the whole thing is sold for $3000?

That is hype, and the rest of it is BS. Its funny though, how your argument against the RS1 evolves and you seem to keep a straight face.

Dont you think if it were the case that those lens were worth more than $2800, it would be better for Marantz to scrap those projectors and save them (the lenses) for their 11s1s and 15s1s, which seems set to be priced relatively close to the RS1? Even if they had to sell them as refurb 11s1s and 15s1s, for which they could likely get much more.

From the Marantz web page, doesnt seem that the 12s4 is discontinued.

Have any of you ever compared a lower-end factory lens on an SLR with their best glass? It's night and day. Now, imagine blowing-up that error to a 10' screen. It really shows.

Take an expensive PJ and the focus is sharp from the center to every corner. Add to that a DLP's single chip, and you have perfect convergence which makes it sharper.

Absolutely right Ernie. That's exactly why I choose my dVision 1080p. The lens, which comes in a seperate box and costs as much as my first projector ( an NEC HT 1000 ) alone is exceptionally sharp. Corner to corner. And enormous compared with any other projector lens I've seen.

bcat -

I decided to upgrade my screen and wait for the prices of the 1080p projectors to come down in price. I too have a Z4 with HCCV screen. I have just ordered a Carada brilliant white which from the sample I got really improved the overall image for me. I'm in a totally dark bat cave and have no need to watch sports. Just movies and videogames. I'll report back and tell you if it was worth it.

Now if the RS1 were about $3k I would definitely be all over it. Maybe 2 years from now :)

Absolutely right Ernie. That's exactly why I choose my dVision 1080p. The lens, which comes in a seperate box and costs as much as my first projector ( an NEC HT 1000 ) alone is exceptionally sharp. Corner to corner. And enormous compared with any other projector lens I've seen.

Now, in your case the lens is likely a different story. 8) But a lens can only do so much. In the end, its going to be the case of whether you believe the incremental gain in the quality of the lens and (the large gain from) its outstanding brightness, is or isnt, going to be enough to overcome the other differences between projectors for a particular setup. In this particular comparison, with the RS1, the vast difference in native on/off contrast of the RS1 versus the brightness and ANSI CR of the dvision PJ.

While I dont think that most would question that the optics on this projector (Craig's dvision) superior, however the sharpness of the RS1 has been considered comparable, at least close enough, to those of the Marantz 11s1 and Sharp 20k by several respected reviewers. It certainly has never been an issue to any professional reviewer, or review, or publication, as to whether any of these projectors can fully resolve 1080p or that RS1 produces a superior picture, sometimes, more often, dependent on different source material.

There really isnt any similar comparison to be made between the 11s1 and 12s4 when the differences between 720p and 1080p are noticeable, which would likely include most setups.

Cat,
I'm done. Enjoy your RS1.

I have seen both these PJs on multiple occasions and get to play with them in our test area. They both have their strength and weaknesses and neither one is heads and tails above the other. If I had a screen the size of Ernie's (?84") the Marantz would be my choice as well. You are not going to see the resolution differences on that size screen unless sitting very close.

The biggest problem with the Marantz is lumens or lack of lumens I should say. If you are going bigger it is not the PJ for you unless you have a high gain screen which has its own limitations.

The RS-1 has higher on/off contrast which helps in dark scenes but the Marantz has better ANSI and intrafield contrast which give the picture more pop in medium to bright screnes or dark scenes with bright areas again you need a smaller screen to see these differences or the Marantz will lose its "pop". I like the blacker blacks and the shadow detail of the RS-1 in dark scenes.

A single chip anything will have a sharper image. Once you have a 3 chip machine DLP, LCOS, LCD, etc. you will have some minor convergence issues. There are other advantages of 3 chip besides no rainbows but that is another discussion. The less fill factor of DLP means you have a greater outline of each pixel creating a sharper picture. LCOS currently has the best fill factor and gives a smoother picture. LCD without some type of smooth screen technology had the least fill factor and although might appear very sharp also makes the screen door easier to notice from further seating distances.

The lens on the Marantz is much better than the RS-1. This is easily noticed in uniformity patterns and CA observed. The two biggest problems of the RS-1 are the lens and oversaturated colors which many will prefer so the latter isn't a problem for everyone. If you want to see an example of the lens just put up a white grid pattern on a black background and see if your convergence is uniform across the whole screen. The RS-1s I've installed haven't been uniform. The middle might be nearly perfect but 1/4-1/2 pixel off near the sides or top and when you make adjustments the center is no longer as close but the sides look better. And it may be off slightly to one side on the left and different on the right. You have to tradeoff to get the best compromise for the best picture.

I think you both have the best projectors for your needs. Ernie has a small image doesn't sit very close for his screen size, prefers a more accurate and crisper image, 1080 alone offers little advantage to him. I also bet the oversaturated colors on a smaller screen are more bothersome as they might really "glow" with that many lumens on his screen. Cat has a larger screen prefers to sit close and prefers a smoother image and the wow factor of the slightly oversaturated colors, 1080 is almost a necessity. I don't understand the arguments you both have different desires. Neither PJ is perfect.

Lastly, here are some comparisons of 720 vs 1080 using very large screens 130" and ~120" screens using similar 720/1080 models from the same companies. The 1080 models were newer and offered slight other advantages besides resolution but the participants seem to agree that unless you are sitting close to the screen where screen door becomes an issue the differences were minor.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9157454&&#post9157454

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=799340

Hope this helps.

Bob

I've got an Infocus 7210 now and the thumb's up to upgrade to a better projector. Although my screen isn't large (87" wide 16:9), it's in a family room set up with the usual ambient light issues. So I'm wondering which will be the better choice: the Infocus 777 or the new IN82. It would be nice to have the IN82's new feature set (1080p, 10 bit processing, iris (probably static), HDMI 1.3, ISF night and day presets etc.) and it's probably brighter than the 7210. But the 777 is brighter still, and may have the edge in optics, native contrast, and color. I don't know that I'll get the chance see them both, but if not, hopefully there will be some insights here to tap. A wider screen may be in my future at some point as well, but probably not right out of the gates.

I have the 777 in a lower level rec room with ambient light. The brightness of the 777 allowed me to use an accoustically transparent screen with a 1.0 gain. This gives great off angle viewing (almost up to 180 deg). None of the 1080p's (under 10K) had close to this level of output. In a bat cave the new 1080p's may have the edge, but I still like the 3 chip DLP's over the one chip DLP's or LCOS.

Lastly, here are some comparisons of 720 vs 1080 using very large screens 130" and ~120" screens using similar 720/1080 models from the same companies. The 1080 models were newer and offered slight other advantages besides resolution but the participants seem to agree that unless you are sitting close to the screen where screen door becomes an issue the differences were minor.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9157454&&#post9157454

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=799340

Hope this helps.

Bob

Wow, thanks for the great links. I feel very comfortable sticking with my Z4 for at least another year at this point. I sit at about 11.5 feet from a 120" screen and have never been bothered by screen door effect, so upgrading just to eliminate that is not worth it in my case at this stage.

There is no substitute for good glass. Ernie is spot on here. Good glass is not a subtle thing it is huge and expensive.

Remember the RS-1 has an mediocre lens and a flawed color system. It has uniformity issues and poor ANSI contrast. The SP 777 has none of these issues and NO MISCONVERGENCE in the ones I have seen.

The only thing the SP777 gives up to the RS-1 is price and resolution and black level. On the resolution front, when setup in most situations folks would not feel cheated here or even notice it.

On this forum there are those who know, those who want to know, and those who think they know.

Sadly all to often, once someone has purchased something they instantly become the latter.

While the RS-1 has it merits IMO it is not a great projector and given the JVC choices is not something I would want or offer as a first choice. Those who have bought it mostly like it due to their earlier poorer performing projector it replaced. Thus to them it is a real improvement. For those who have a higher quality projector look at the RS-1 as not for them.

I hear most often how their 720P display showed pixels and yet the RS-1 you have to walk right up to the screen to see them and then just barely. OOHHKAAY

With the poor quality lens and the misconvergence and the lower ANSI contrast it makes total sense that the RS-1 shows very little pixel structure. Just because you can not see them does not necessarily mean it is a good thing. In this case you can't see them because it is a less than optimal implementation.

I know when someone points out the issues with the latest AVS Forum fan toy that folks don't want o hear it. That's human nature. There are some here however who want the FACTS both good and bad. It is to them I write and help. RS-1 owners are not. You bought one and I hope you enjoy it. You will soon be upgrading unfortunately as you will become educated it the flaws of this projector and you will begin to fall out of love. If you have nothing but money to burn no big deal. If you don't you will be stuck and have to live with it for a long time. Such is life and the choices we make.

Most here think they can do it on there own. Trying to save a few bucks by doing it this way. Almost always it ends up costing them more because they listen to the hype and don't know the facts. Good ISF guys know the facts. These are the ones who know what good pictures look like. I know for a fact that the RS-1 owners can't know this as it is currently uncalibratable without hooking up an expensive scaler. This does nothing for the lens issues.

Funny how the "Power buys" come when no one has even seen this unit for themselves. They seem to go away when the unit is out and folks are not as easily suckered into buying sight unseen. The hype sells the less educated. Not the best way to do business IMO. But as P T Barnum liked to say there is one born every minute. And it is true down to this day.

I want my customers to know what they are getting and that it is what they need for their unique situation. Not here's your box now go home. What works for one may not for the other.

Thanks Allen. I think everyone knows by now that you love the IF 777 and dislike the JVC. That you do it while offending almost everyone but the few people who agree with you takes real class.

I'm guessing your customers are "Joe Six Packs", as you so lovingly refer to them, that are willing to buy whatever you in your infinite wisdom deign to sell them. The reason I say that is b/c I can't imagine that anybody from this forum would do business with you after witnessing your string of insulting and arrogant threads.

Good luck. I'm sure there are plenty of Joe Six Packs willing to spend big money on last year's technology because you say its the best.

I hear most often how their 720P display showed pixels and yet the RS-1 you have to walk right up to the screen to see them and then just barely. OOHHKAAY

With the poor quality lens and the misconvergence and the lower ANSI contrast it makes total sense that the RS-1 shows very little pixel structure. Just because you can not see them does not necessarily mean it is a good thing. In this case you can't see them because it is a less than optimal implementation.

I should point out that I have to walk right up to the screen to see the pixels with my dVision too. And it has a top notch lens. 720p just doesn't cut it from a closer to the screen immersive movie experience point of view. After seeing the much loved SIM C3X, I am more convinced than ever that 1080p is needed even more for 3 chip DLP. The picture quality was fantastic, but the pronounced pixel structure kept me from watching it at a close enough distance to really appreciate the gorgeous picture. A pity really.

While Allen has some valid criticisms of the RS1, his points are completely lost because he throws stones in his own glass house. If the 777 was a perfect projector, he might be justified in his outrage. Sadly, it is not perfect, far from it. I am not sure how he can overlook the 777s faults but be so hard on the RS1s?

I also resent his suggestion that RS1 owners are neophytes who wouldn't know a good picture unless he taught them how to appreciate one. This is just snobbery and it is improperly interjected into a thread that it has no business being in.

To repond to the OP's question, I would buy a good 720p projector over many 1080p projectors, particularly the 1080p LCDs. If you don't sit close enough to the screen to see screen door, 1080p, in and of itself, is probably wasted on you. Good 1080p PJs like the RS1, Sharp 20k, or Pearl offer advantages (other than resolution) over most 720p projectors. If you like to sit close to the screen, spend the extra money on a good 1080p projector.

If you like to sit close to the screen, spend the extra money on a good 1080p projector.

Amen.

Too much going on out here today. Missed a lot of good stuff, apparently.

I have seen both these PJs on multiple occasions and get to play with them in our test area. They both have their strength and weaknesses and neither one is heads and tails above the other. If I had a screen the size of Ernie's (?84") the Marantz would be my choice as well. You are not going to see the resolution differences on that size screen unless sitting very close.


I havent just seen projectors, or played with them in test areas. Ive owned a Sharp 10k and a Sharp 12k (quality 720p pjs in their time) as well as a Sony Ruby and the RS1 (quality 1080p pjs.) I also played with the Marantz, which was in one of my dealers main rooms, before I bought my Ruby, and it was not much different from my Sharp 12k.

Sitting very close is generalizing it. The point is on an 80" screen you can notice differences between 720p and 1080p from inside 16', fully resolving 1080p within 10'.

You dont need to be able to fully resolve 1080p to notice the added difference. Its not hype.

The biggest problem with the Marantz is lumens or lack of lumens I should say. If you are going bigger it is not the PJ for you unless you have a high gain screen which has its own limitations.

The biggest problem for the Marantz when comparing it to a 1080p projector is that it is 720p. Like you mention brightness can be compensated for with screen, resolution cant be compensated for.

When compared specifically to the RS1, aside from resolution, simultaneous brightness and CR are another big disadvantage.

I think you both have the best projectors for your needs. Ernie has a small image doesn't sit very close for his screen size, prefers a more accurate and crisper image, 1080 alone offers little advantage to him. I also bet the oversaturated colors on a smaller screen are more bothersome as they might really "glow" with that many lumens on his screen. Cat has a larger screen prefers to sit close and prefers a smoother image and the wow factor of the slightly oversaturated colors, 1080 is almost a necessity. I don't understand the arguments you both have different desires. Neither PJ is perfect.


The discussions dont really center around different preferences, they center around misinformation. If you have followed the color and RS1 discussions you wouldnt have to wonder. 8)

The biggest problem with the Marantz is lumens or lack of lumens I should say. If you are going bigger it is not the PJ for you unless you have a high gain screen which has its own limitations.



When compared to a 1080p pj, I would say its biggest problem is likely resolution. You can mitigate the brightness issues with a screen but you cant add resolution unless you get a 1080p capable projector. Simultaneous high brightness and contrast is another.

The lens on the Marantz is much better than the RS-1. This is easily noticed in uniformity patterns and CA observed. The two biggest problems of the RS-1 are the lens and oversaturated colors which many will prefer so the latter isn't a problem for everyone. If you want to see an example of the lens just put up a white grid pattern on a black background and see if your convergence is uniform across the whole screen. The RS-1s I've installed haven't been uniform. The middle might be nearly perfect but 1/4-1/2 pixel off near the sides or top and when you make adjustments the center is no longer as close but the sides look better. And it may be off slightly to one side on the left and different on the right. You have to tradeoff to get the best compromise for the best picture.



It might be much better, it might not. You dont have a convergence grid on the S4, so you cant really tell. As far as whether slight distortions on a lens are noticeable when watching content, owning a uh380 and having distortion attributable to my throw ratio, I can assure you that the distortions noticeable on a grid patter are absolutel irrelevant when watching a movie and have 0 effect on PQ while watching movies.

In regard to sharpness, several reviewers placed the apparent differences in the sharpness of the images on the Sharp 20k, the RS1, and the 11s1 as insignificant/similar/close.

I think you both have the best projectors for your needs. Ernie has a small image doesn't sit very close for his screen size, prefers a more accurate and crisper image, 1080 alone offers little advantage to him. I also bet the oversaturated colors on a smaller screen are more bothersome as they might really "glow" with that many lumens on his screen. Cat has a larger screen prefers to sit close and prefers a smoother image and the wow factor of the slightly oversaturated colors, 1080 is almost a necessity. I don't understand the arguments you both have different desires. Neither PJ is perfect.


This isnt about different preferences or different setups. This isnt about him having a smaller screen and seating further away, its about the constant misinformation, misrepresentation, and mischaracterizations that are at issue here. You probably have not followed the color and RS1/S4 threads so you might not be aware.

Here is where I have issue with him, just in this particular thread:

TBut, the bigger difference is that some DLP's are actually sharper and show more detail. This is because they have no convergence issues and better glass. That will null out the improvement that additional pixels gives you with the current cheap 1080p PJs. -- Ernie

Which 1080p projectors, that you have personally seen, or even just heard of, specifically, does this occur with?


I've seen two Pearls and the RS1. Actually 3 RS1's. Two had bad, uncorrectable convergence issues (1 pixel), the one I bought was about 1/2 pixel at best. And the focus when you set it at the center was very soft at the edges. That's due mostly to the budget lens. -- Ernie

You should check out the other threads to see what other claims were made.

Lastly, here are some comparisons of 720 vs 1080 using very large screens 130" and ~120" screens using similar 720/1080 models from the same companies. The 1080 models were newer and offered slight other advantages besides resolution but the participants seem to agree that unless you are sitting close to the screen where screen door becomes an issue the differences were minor.


Those people admitted they were not using 1HD content, and were not seated less than 1.4x ( I think - been a while) width. They admitted that the differences would probably be more noticeable if they had done, either, or both of those things.

As a professional installer, do you agree that the differences are minor, only unless you can notice the screen door .. specially on 120" to 130" screens? That would be a ridiculous statement to make.

Wow, thanks for the great links. I feel very comfortable sticking with my Z4 for at least another year at this point. I sit at about 11.5 feet from a 120" screen and have never been bothered by screen door effect, so upgrading just to eliminate that is not worth it in my case at this stage.

bcat, you should not take those threads at face value. As I mentioned, they were not using 1HD content and only the closest seating was around 1.4x width, and further out.

A 120" screen is large enough that the resolution differences between 720p and 1080p would begin to be noticeable from 24' out and with 1080p becoming FULLY resolvable, the most you could resolve, not too far out from your seating area at around 15'.

Not to say that you shouldnt stay with your Z4, but definitely check them out for yourself.

I know when someone points out the issues with the latest AVS Forum fan toy that folks don't want o hear it. That's human nature. There are some here however who want the FACTS both good and bad. It is to them I write and help. RS-1 owners are not. You bought one and I hope you enjoy it. You will soon be upgrading unfortunately as you will become educated it the flaws of this projector and you will begin to fall out of love. If you have nothing but money to burn no big deal. If you don't you will be stuck and have to live with it for a long time. Such is life and the choices we make.

Most here think they can do it on there own. Trying to save a few bucks by doing it this way. Almost always it ends up costing them more because they listen to the hype and don't know the facts. Good ISF guys know the facts. These are the ones who know what good pictures look like. I know for a fact that the RS-1 owners can't know this as it is currently uncalibratable without hooking up an expensive scaler. This does nothing for the lens issues.

In regards to Allen Fleener, as he admits he is an infocus dealer, and you should read other threads to find out about the veracity of his statements.

While Allen has some valid criticisms of the RS1, his points are completely lost because he throws stones in his own glass house. If the 777 was a perfect projector, he might be justified in his outrage. Sadly, it is not perfect, far from it. I am not sure how he can overlook the 777s faults but be so hard on the RS1s?

Youre too nice to be a lawyer. 8)

I wouldnt really consider them valid criticsms, more like gross exagerrations and misrepresentations.

Absolutely right Ernie. That's exactly why I choose my dVision 1080p. The lens, which comes in a seperate box and costs as much as my first projector ( an NEC HT 1000 ) alone is exceptionally sharp. Corner to corner. And enormous compared with any other projector lens I've seen.

Another thing that people seem to forget is the impact very fine focus has on the image. This is something that projector companies like PD, Sim2 and PDI give great attention. The majority dont as the control mechanisms are too expensive.

Throw a white screen and use a magnifying glass on the pixels whilst focusing and you'll find other PJs cant match the sharpness of focus of a higher end machine. Even a great lens is worth jack without this level of ultra fine focus.

To put the final nail in this coffin:

However, front projectors and rear projection displays are a different story. They make it very easy to obtain large screen sizes. Plus, LCD and Plasma displays are constantly getting larger and less expensive. In my home, for example, I have a 123-inch screen and a projector with a 1280×720 resolution. For a 123-inch screen, the benefits of 720p vs. 480p starts to become apparent at viewing distances closer than 36 feet (14 feet behind my back wall) and become fully apparent at 24 feet (2 feet behind my back wall). For the same screen size, the benefits of 1080p vs. 720p start to become apparent when closer than 24 feet and become full apparent at 16 feet (just between the first and second row of seating in my theater). This means that people in the back row of my home theater would see some improvement if I purchased a 1080p projector and that people in the front row would notice a drastic improvement. (Note: the THX recommended max viewing distance for a 123" screen is 13.7 feet).



http://www.carltonbale.com/2006/11/1080p-does-matter/

Cat,

You seem to take offense with people that don't share your opinion. I work in this industry and have taken many classes on video displays and have a degree in laser technology. I've been a calibrator since 1999 and a tweaker for much longer than that. I have test equipment at my disposal that costs easily twice what these PJs cost combined and the environment to test them. I don't need an internal test pattern to test something, I can just use a reference signal generator. I spend more time with these things than you know.

I said 1080 is better than 720 if all other aspects are equal and that seating distance is a factor. You don't seem to want to admit that any 720 might have some better qualities than the RS-1 or you deem them insiginificant where others do not. To you the RS-1 might be the ultimate PJ but arguing with others experiences or opinions is senseless. I share my experiences and opinions but if someone differs that is fine. Let each individual decide what is best for their situation.

Rant off.

Bob

I dont take offesne to people who differ in opinion, Bob, just people who make things up.

Theres absolutely nothing wrong with someone preferring 720p, or CMS, or service, or preferring the way something looks over another. Its another to state something that is contrary to fact.

Not that I am saying you are fabricating anything, nor do I doubt the qualifications you profess. You seemed to intervene in an ongoing argument that you appeared to know little about.

Most of that post had not much to do with you.

For example, the Sharp Z3000 720p DLP vs. the Epson or Panasonic 1080p LCD--very close in price. Any thoughts on this comparison?

I think I'm qualified to answer this. I have a Z3k now, and have seen the Mits 5k / Epson 1k (which should be similar to the panny, or even better). With the z3k on a 116" wide screen viewed at 11ft distance the sharp is far better than the budget LCDs. (EDIT: all src material go through a video processor) Without a doubt. Way sharper, better "pop". LCD is only comparable at bright outdoor scenes, but as soon as the scene gets a bit darker (almost all movies), the DLP is far better. To me for this there is no comparism.

I'm in the market looking for 1080ps. Coming from some photography background, I completely agree that the lens is the single most important factor of the projection system. For this reason I'm only looking at the dVision (really PD here) and the new Marantz. Hopefully the surprisingly "low" figure of the Marantz doesn't compromise on the lens. (I have a Canon L lens that alone is abt 60% of the price of the Epson PJ, so I understand how costly a gd lens can be.) I cannot bring myself to a lens that has so obvious CA blown up on screen.

Cat seems to post about 100 posts a day defending the RS1. I'm starting to get a whiff that he's a shill for JVC.

You are likely whiffing too much!

Nobody posts so much and argues this hard who isn't.

Does that make you a shill for Marantz? ;)

What seems to be missing in this discussion is that some situations require a very bright projector (ie 2000 lumens calibrated). I have a large Rec room with a large screen, ambient light and want off angle viewing for sports events. High gain screens may be ok for the tiered seating in front of the screen (we wont get into the hot spotting argument) but if I want to watch a game at the bar (80-110 degree's off center) or play a game of pool (30 feet back 60 degrees off angle) high gain screens with low lumen projectors don't cut it. In that situation you want a light cannon with a unigain screen with wide angle viewing. There are no 1080p projectors under 15K that fit this kind of setup. The 3 chip 1080p and maybe the PD single chip are great but over 20K. I did not want to spend that kind of money with laser light sources and internal amorphic capability coming in the next 3-5 years. There are alot of people who put projectors in multi-purpose Rec Rooms and don't want to watch sports in a black out or in their theater seating. The current crop of 1080p projectors under 10-15K don't cut for those situations. The 3 chip 720p DLP's which sold for 30K a year ago and now are available for the same price as a 1080p under 10K are I believe a better projector and a better value for these Rec Room setups.

Does that make you a shill for Marantz? ;)No becauase I don't work for Marantz, but I suspect Catdaddy works for JVC or a distributor by his ridiculous number of posts and his unwillingness to deny there's anything wrong with the RS1.

No becauase I don't work for Marantz, but I suspect Catdaddy does by his ridiculous number of posts and his unwillingness to deny there's anything wrong with the RS1.


Is that your new argument against the RS1, now? No, JVC doesnt pay me, nor do I work for them or sell their products for a living. I wish they did pay me. You paying attention Tom Stites! 8)

I never said there was nothing wrong with the RS1. I have said the horizontal/vertical offset controls suck. There is one thing, right there. 8)

Chalk that misrepresentation up to your ever growing list thats several pages long, already. 8)

Is that your new argument against the RS1, now? No, JVC doesnt pay me, nor do I work for them or sell their products for a living. I wish they did pay me. You paying attention Tom Stites! 8)

I never said there was nothing wrong with the RS1. I have said the horizontal/vertical offset controls suck. There is one thing, right there. 8)

Chalk that misrepresentation up to your ever growing list thats several pages long, already. 8)


Cat

I think you need to chill, sit back and enjoy your RS1. As the Bible says "beware of zealots" or something to that effect.

What seems to be missing in this discussion is that some situations require a very bright projector (ie 2000 lumens calibrated). I have a large Rec room with a large screen, ambient light and want off angle viewing for sports events. High gain screens may be ok for the tiered seating in front of the screen (we wont get into the hot spotting argument) but if I want to watch a game at the bar (80-110 degree's off center) or play a game of pool (30 feet back 60 degrees off angle) high gain screens with low lumen projectors don't cut it. In that situation you want a light cannon with a unigain screen with wide angle viewing. There are no 1080p projectors under 15K that fit this kind of setup. The 3 chip 1080p and maybe the PD single chip are great but over 20K. I did not want to spend that kind of money with laser light sources and internal amorphic capability coming in the next 3-5 years. There are alot of people who put projectors in multi-purpose Rec Rooms and don't want to watch sports in a black out or in their theater seating. The current crop of 1080p projectors under 10-15K don't cut for those situations. The 3 chip 720p DLP's which sold for 30K a year ago and now are available for the same price as a 1080p under 10K are I believe a better projector and a better value for these Rec Room setups.

Off angle viewing is the other element for me as well. I've seen how much better the Firehawk is at rejecting ambient light, but I don't really want to give up the off angle perfomance of the Dalite HCCV I have now.

I have the Z4 and made the switch to the JVC Rs1. Big difference. My JVC was in the shop for the past 2 weeks so I've been using the Z4 again (video games only). Almost a night and day difference to the Z4. However, I was using quite a bit of EE on the Z4 (they call it Trans something), so the first few days of the RS1 seemed a little soft to me. Now I'm used to it and you couldn't pay me to watch a movie on the Z4 again. Kinda like driving a Rolls then having to rent a cavalier.

Now this might not be the case with the other 1080 pj's out there. I can only comment on what I've seen.

I watched Ghost Rider on the Z4 while my RS1 was in the process of shipping. First thing I watched on the RS1 was Ghost Rider. The details in the blacks were the first thing that I noticed as well as the color pop.

If you have the money go for it, if not, wait for the RS2. The RS1 is great, but still needs some work in the menu area.

Also, if your watching TV, don't bother with a 1080p, stick with the Z4. The RS1 is great for dvds and video games, but you don't really wanna watch TV (sd) on this thing.


My setup:
JVC Rs1
DVDO vp50
dalite 120" HP
Denon 887
Toshiba A2
PS3
xbox360
DN622


good luck....

Cat

I think you need to chill, sit back and enjoy your RS1. As the Bible says "beware of zealots" or something to that effect.

"Thou shall not bear false witness against they neighbor."

Thats one of the ten commandments. 8)

I dont mean to come across as being strongly against Ernie, because I dont know the fellow, but we have come accross each other a few times in recent threads and some of his "observations" have been the basis of people almost rejecting the idea of purchasing the RS1.

Ill try to restrain myself, but whenever I see misinformation I sometimes (often) feel compelled to call it out.

It is what it is. I certainly dont want to come accross as a zealot. 8)

"Thou shall not bear false witness against they neighbor."

Thats one of the ten commandments. 8)

I dont mean to come across as being strongly against Ernie, because I dont know the fellow, but we have come accross each other a few times in recent threads and some of his "observations" have been the basis of people almost rejecting the idea of purchasing the RS1.

Ill try to restrain myself, but whenever I see misinformation I sometimes (often) feel compelled to call it out.

It is what it is. I certainly dont want to come accross as a zealot. 8)

Cat,

I think you are refering to a different Ernie, I am just a casual observer.

I certainly dont want to come accross as a zealot. 8)Don't worry, you don't have to try.

"Thou shall not bear false witness against they neighbor."

Thats one of the ten commandments. 8)

I dont mean to come across as being strongly against Ernie, because I dont know the fellow, but we have come accross each other a few times in recent threads and some of his "observations" have been the basis of people almost rejecting the idea of purchasing the RS1.

Ill try to restrain myself, but whenever I see misinformation I sometimes (often) feel compelled to call it out.

It is what it is. I certainly dont want to come accross as a zealot. 8)

Cat,

No disrespect, but if I wanted to find out what you looked like I wouldn't be suprised if I looked up zealot in the dictionary your picture would be there with the RS1 in your arms.

I think it is fairly obvious that your are passionate about your projector.

What causes me so much agita (I'm Italian) is that I have always put my reputation, professional experience, and my eyes on the line. I've seen both a state-of-art, $11K list S4 720p PJ, side-by-side with a budget $6K 1080p RS1 and reported my results. The S4 was so much more enjoyable to watch without being distracted by image issues. (That's my opinion, YMMV and usually does)

Cat doesn't believe my findings. Fine, but one, what is his credentials? Two, he has never seen both side-by-side on the same screen. Three, all he continues to say is, "Reviewer X says it's the best 'cause he bought one". Do you know Reviewer X personally? Do you know Reviewer X's motivations? How many times have we all read reviews that miss issues that we've found here on the forum? For example, not one reviewer (I've read just about every RS1 review) mentioned the vertical blurring issue, not one. So, as they may be called 'Gods' they most certainly are not. Also, I've not seen in any reviews, the reviewers comparing two or three of the same units. As we've seen, Fan noise varies wildly from unit to unit, as does convergence, and lumes with similar mounting positions. That reviewer may have gotten a 'tweeked' one from the manufacturer vs what the rest of the world receives. (That wouldn't be a first).

Everyone should do their own comparisions and then, only then can you truthfully say yes, I see the differences. It only gets you called a 'f-a-n-b-o-y' when you post endlessly on half a dozen threads and argue comparisons without facts. Just saying "Well, reviewer Bob says it's the best!", and believing it must be true... doesn't fly around here.

Hey guys, good comments. Im sorry, but I actually had a thoughtful response typed up for you but signal dropped and my cut/copy didnt save it. 8(

I didnt want you to think I was ignoring you boys. I had been tied up on another thread, plus wife, accounts, and a few of my kids.

Ill leave you guys with something to think about tonight. Again, its mostly nothing personal for me. My wife thinks I have too much fun with this stuff, and she is probably right. 8)

Wow, looks like some here need a group hug :). I've demo'd some of the best 720p PJs in my home and elsewhere and none, and I mean none, have the clarity of my RS1. I've got near zero convergence issues with my RS1. I can throw up a 1080 one pixel checkered board pattern and the worse pixel alignment I have is less than 1/4 pixel anywhere on the screen and those are in the corners only. I think, no I know, there is quite a variance in convergence, noise floor, etc. with RS1s - no doubt but some DO have have very, very good units and I am blessed to have one of those. The only 720p PJ, I felt to even come close to my PJ is the C3X and it is, IMHO a very good PJ, one I came close to buying. I would take my RS1 over any 720p without any reservation, bar none. There is no way any one can state that a 720 PJ can resolve the a 1080 image. Period. That is not to say there are not great 720 PJs but I will compare my RS1 against the best. The color issue on my PJ is so insignificant that it is not worth mentioning. Compared to my reference 32" CRT the colors are a little more vivid but all of my friends and family prefer the slightly boosted colors of the RS1 and as I watch it, I do as well - a fully calibrated monitor is a little flat for most peoples taste, IMHO. I've not demo'd enough RS1s to note the differences but I've looked at more than enough 720p and 1080p PJs to know what throws a good picture. Only a 3 chip DLP @ 1080 might get me to switch and those are a little pricey now and the difference is not that much to push me in that direction (well, not yet anyway). I really don't know of any PJ under $20K that can kick the RS1s butt {the one I own).
I am not a shill for any mfg. and I've owned Marantz, Dwin, Optoma, and a few others, and this IS an exceptional PJ! That is not to say the 1080 Sharp or Marantz PJs are not excellent but I needed a little more light and in my case the RS1 fills the bill.
Look no futher than some here who have compared a stacked G90s against the RS1 and it did not get its rear kicked to badly, I've not seen that comparo against ANY 720p PJ.

I read these threads and get a laugh the size of your screen the light in your room how well it is calibrated all have something to do with the out come of any projector. For instant if you have a 10ft screen with certain projectors you are going to see screen door and a lot of other problems maybe wrong colors ect.. the one thing I have not noticed say the people who see SDE what size is the screen you are projecting onto its all so objective that is why its best to see a model you like for yourself. I have a 80" by 45" 92" dia screen and for quality purposes would not go much bigger its all a trade off do you want quality or quanity that's the real answer. I chose quality at a cost of size of the image it's just your choice. But I think stating the size of the image you are projecting with a certain PJ would be very useful info.

OK, let me do this again.

First let me say, again, that I dont have anything against either Ernie. While posting on this thread, in particularly in response to Santella, I have noticed things getting more personal than they should have (but it felt so good at the time.) Sorry, Ernie, sincerely, we should be able to disagree with each other without anything hitting, too hard, below the belt and Im as much responsible for that as anyone.

As you can see though, despite our contentious discussions it can never be said that I have fabricated, misrepresented, or mischaracterized any facts or arguments/statements expressed by others. Surely Ernie would have placed that in his beefs with me if I did.

Secondly, as far as my qualifications go, I am not a industry professional by any way shape or form, except probably if you walked in to my office you would see a bunch of industry mags. 8) I am however very entrenched in this hobby, having owned two $11kish list 720p projectors, the Sharp 10k and 12k, which I bought at the time when they were IT, much like the 12s4 used to be in its time (back then.)

I also have most recently owned the Sony Ruby (10kish list at the time) and the JVC RS1 (6.3k list.) I have also owned countless TVs, still owning 3 other additional HDTVs currently. Aside from having substantial experience with top quality 720p 1 chippers and with two recent quality 1080p pjs, Ive also spent countless hours at several home theater retailers reviewing most of the 1 chip 720p and 1080p pjs discussed on these threads. Ive seen them on the same screens, different screens, comparable screens, in different lighting situations, from different throws and seatings, etc.

Aside from all of that, I also spend a considerable amount of time, my wife says definitely too much and we argue about it a bit, learning and understanding basic and intermediate concepts relevant to home theaters and front projectors. I now even have a 2.35 setup that Im very proud of, check it out in my sig. 8)

Having said all that, Im going to try to be as generous and considerate as possible in addressing my differences with Ernie's "opinions" and other remarks.

If those were just opinions we wouldnt be having this discussion. Unfortunately, Ernie and I have ended up in several discussions about the RS1 and the S4 where he has engaged, dismissed, by truly objective opinions and impressions with, what I felt were (being generous here), not so forthright. There was a discussion on the differences (hype) between 720p and 1080p were things were said. Another statement regarding the relative brightness of the 12s4, in its highest contrast mode, to the RS1. Several instances where I felt (being generous again) I, or my words, were being mischaracterized. and others.

Most recently this new twist to 720p versus 1080p, adding the lens and panel alignment in the mix, just to stir it up.

Ill accept that while most of these remarks seemed to be (generous again) expressed as factual, and usually in attempts to discredit my factual and honest remarks, that they could have purely been meant as not-to-be-taken-at-face-value opinions.

Having said all that, I sincerely do not hold these past disagreements personally against anyone and will treat the next discussions as though these other ones had not occurred. I certainly dont intend to mute you from expressing your honest opinions and hope you dont prevent me from being able to express mine in return.

Im a little embarassed, and certainly sorry Ernie, for letting my emotions get the better of me in my responses to you.

Obviously I agree with MichaelZ. Kjohn, mine is a 128" 2.35 carada BW, though soon to be 128" 2.35 firehawk G3. Please do look at my sig and tell me what you guys think.

Nice post Cat, really. We're all in this for the enjoyment. Sometimes we get too close to it and get carried away. (Especially me)

Let's have fun! :)

It's actually a wonderful thing that we can argue the fine points over all these affordable ( more or less ) projectors today. Compared to what we had 10 years ago, even the cheap 1K dlp at CostCo looks great!! We're splitting hairs here. And since I'm going bald, I can't afford to split many more.

It's actually a wonderful thing that we can argue the fine points over all these affordable ( more or less ) projectors today. Compared to what we had 10 years ago, even the cheap 1K dlp at CostCo looks great!! We're splitting hairs here. And since I'm going bald, I can't afford to split many more.

;) So True!

Well, I've really socked it to poor Allen Fleener in the past so I'm kinda embarrassed I'm going to side with him a little.

I think it can really depend on your environment and application.

If I had a dark walled, floored, and ceilinged, bat-cave, and a moderate or small sized screen I would really be all over a 1080p single chip dlp (assuming I didn't notice RBE).

If I had a moderate to small sized screen, a long throw, and didn't need off-axis viewing, I would look to a Firehawk type screen to boost contrast if needed.

If I didn't care if my whites were grey and light bright colours were dingy I would use a grey screen to boost contrast if needed.

If I sat really close I would be hot for a 1080p projector.

If I didn't have a video processor I would be hotter for a 1080p pj as most high-def content is 1080.

If I had my pj in my family room, the wife wanted the walls and ceiling left light, I liked my colours to be accurate, I wanted enough light to light up a really big screen with pop, and I had a decent video processor, and didn't want to give up any of those things, I would live with the lower contrast and lighter blacks, and get a light cannon like the InFocus 777.

Comparing the image to the 1080p image of a Sony Ruby, I think the 720p image of the 777 is just as, or nearly as, good but, and this is most important, in the environment and desired application described, the Ruby, IMO, could not hope to compete.

As far as I can tell -- so far -- for me to make the switch a 1080p pj is going to have to throw a ton of light, or I'm going to need to shrink my screen and get a bat-cave, for me to make the switch.

Obviously a 1080p three chipper DLP would be ideal, but I'm just not going to get my wife to allow that kind of expenditure so it ain't happening.

To be sure, however, we would LOVE and much PREFER to have darker inky blacks -- no question. But to keep a big unity screen where the whites and light colours are brilliant not grey tinged, and the edges of the screen don't get darker depending on where you are sitting, and to be able to overcome the ambient light from our light walls and cieling, the three chip dlp at 720p just kicks ass and satisfies more of our requirements.

I'm not going to argue that there aren't many 1080p pj's out there that can't beat the pants off the 777 in an objective and subjective review. Just put the two in a dark light controlled room with a 100" or smaller screen, for example, and the 777 is probably not going to not look as good.

On the other hand, take someone who has an eye for D65 calibration and accurate colours, put them in a light coloured room with a 136" inch unity screen then I think the affordable 1080p pj is going to start looking really weak and most people are going to prefer the light cannon.

Obviously there are going to be different views and those with a bias.

We didn't have a legacy technology or brand to which were were loyal. I still don't give a crap about the technology or brand.

You've just, IMO, got to consider your application and the environment as that may prove to be the difference.

Now if you are starting out with a low light output mediocre contrast single chip dlp, or low light output low contrast lcd, in a dark room with smaller screen and close seating position, and are keeping the room and the screen, well then a high contrast 1080 pj is probably going to knock your socks off. But note, it probably isn't going to be because you see more detail (though you'll try to convince yourself you do and it is sharper) it is the higher contrast and lower black levels that are giving you this impression.

I made no measurements in making this post -- it is totally based on my subjective opinion and concede from the outset that I may be wrong and that I have a preference for natural looking colours.

How big is your screen, FEC?

On the other hand, take someone who has an eye for D65 calibration and accurate colours, put them in a light coloured room with a 136" inch unity screen then I think the affordable 1080p pj is going to start looking really weak and most people are going to prefer the light cannon.


Depends on the projector, I think. You can get nice lumens out of the RS1, in high mode, at the short end of the throw and still have 12k to 1 contrast. Im putting mine up on a 128 2.35 and its still plenty bright in normal lamp. My gain is 1.4 though, with the Carada BW.

Also, youve got the two brighter 1080p DLP 1 chips coming out, which will give out more brightness, although probably not as high a simultaneous CR.

How big is your screen, FEC?



Depends on the projector, I think. You can get nice lumens out of the RS1, in high mode, at the short end of the throw and still have 12k to 1 contrast. Im putting mine up on a 128 2.35 and its still plenty bright in normal lamp. My gain is 1.4 though, with the Carada BW.

Also, youve got the two brighter 1080p DLP 1 chips coming out, which will give out more brightness, although probably not as high a simultaneous CR.

Get real. I looked at the RS1. Its off by a factor of 3 in lumens in my enviroment. Its a great projector in a black out. Put it in a Rec room and its washed out.

So the way to end this is to get two RS-1's in the same room... feed one a 720p signal (pixel-perfect though, so it would be windowed in the center of the panel) and another one playing back an unscaled 1080p image, with a small filter to compensate for brightness losses once you zoom up the "720p" unit to the same image size. Compare, discuss? :)

So the way to end this is to get two RS-1's in the same room... feed one a 720p signal (pixel-perfect though, so it would be windowed in the center of the panel) and another one playing back an unscaled 1080p image, with a small filter to compensate for brightness losses once you zoom up the "720p" unit to the same image size. Compare, discuss? :)Interesting concept.

Lately I've been more and more aware of the differences between 720p and 1080i feeds on my SP7210. ESPN-HD, for instance, has a clarity I've not seen equaled by 1080i feeds from my cable system, HD-NET probably being the best. It'd not be too disingenuous to say that my 720p projector displays 720p mastered material better than 1080i mastered material (which has a slight softening).

Think I'll try switching my 7210's internal scaler to NATIVE MODE which ought to window in to "pixel perfect" -- eliminating the scaler -- and see what gives.

Perhaps the scaler plays an enormous role in perceived clarity ... especially when you put motion into the mix.

I haven't made the jump from 720p to 1080p, but I have jumped from DVD to Blu-Ray. And, if this jump is any indicator of things to come I can't wait to see full 1080p.

Of course, I don't know if it is true "WOW" factor as I normally measure that by my wife's reaction. She wasn't wowed at our first Blu-Ray viewing on my Sharp XV-Z10000 but I was. The colors and detail were incredible on "The Curse of the Golden Flower" Blu-Ray disc.

And this was even the final movie watched before the lamp in my PJ blew. I know the lamp was dimmer than spec so I expect to be wowed once again when I replace the lamp with a brand new one.

I really should have added this to my previous post.

If you've been feeding 1080i signals to a 720p projector without using a good external video processor, you've probably only been watching 540 scaled up to 720, which is not nearly as impressive as 1080 downscaled to 720.

In that situation, moving from 720 to 1080 is going to seem like a huge improvement because you were never really viewing 720 lines of resolution only 540 upscaled to the projectors 720 lines.

(For those who don't know, the built in processors usually take the even frame of the 1080i signal and discard the odd frame leaving just 540 lines of resolution which are then upscaled to 720p. A good external processor will take the 1080i signal and deinterlace the odd and even frames to 1080p and then downscale to 720p.)