As membership grows on this forum it seems to me there are now a disproportionate number of members, who to me, appear somewhat irrational. If what we are basically concerned with here is quality and content then why all the fanaticism with respect to one format or the other? It used to be fanaticism about quality, which can seem a little irrational at times, but acceptable on a venue such as this. Given the quality of both BD and HD DVD the obsession shown by some supporters to their chosen format seems to me, at least, completely irrational.

An HD DVD supporter hates extra copy protection in general and Sony in particular so even if a BD player sells for $199 he won't buy it to watch movies he loves in HD? Or simply - "I hate Sony!" Why? Is it because Sony knows who he is and is hunting him down? A little paranoid or what? A BD supporter refuses to purchase an HD DVD player for maybe $149. Why? Is it because MS is behind some sort of consapiracy to kill HD optical disks? In one post a BD supporter argues that he shouldn't have to purchase an HD DVD player, no matter what the cost, just to watch Universal titles that are of poor quality and are lousy movies anyway. Oh really! Has he seen any of these movies on HD DVD? A few posts later he argues why Universal should and will go neutral. Why would he care if he isn't interested in Universal's titles anyway? This stuff makes no sense!

The more posts I read here the more I am coming to the conclusion that the argument, at least to a large extent, is no longer about quality and content, but something else and in many cases appears totally irrational - which is a shame because it seems somewhat puerile and demeans this forum.

Cheers,

Grant

Grant, I totally agree. People seem to do whatever they can to defend *their* format (both sides are equally bad), and they sprinkle it with completely irrational comments. I don't know if some people are that far gone, or if they are doing it in their posts, but deep down know how irrational it is..

I think one aspect of this situation is because the PS3 and 360 add on have been introduced and have played a significant role into that niche battle. Having a gaming system tied into a high end A/V format brings along with it the typical underage trash talking teenagers usually found in gaming forums. From Mark Rubin's now closed thread to thebland's subsequent poll, it is obvious that many members on here have claimed to pledged a sole devotion to their preferred format, and the irrational behavior that has been associated with this is definitely not a characteristic AVS had a couple years back.

Great post. Totally agree. This is why I am format neutral, where I am sitting neither format seems to be going away anytime soon.

A little over a year ago pretty much our only option for pre-recorded HD was DVHS, now some are calling for the death of one of the two competing HD-disc formats... No savoring, no letting things run their natural course, no lets really see what they both have to offer, just a 'off with their heads' 'grab the pitchforks' mentality. Yeah it's pretty strange.

Great post....I completely agree. I think deep down, we all just want to convince ourselves that we made the best decision. Those who made another decision must be wrong at all costs, or by default, we are wrong.

I am borrowing this quote from another thread in the HD Players forum because I believe it addresss the OP with a minimum amount of words and hit's the nail right on the head:

Quote:
So, let’s talk a little about high definition before I jump into my reviews. I’m hesitant to jump into the giant next generation DVD battle at all. It’s so heated and seems to create instant and bitter enemies.

Great post....I completely agree. I think deep down, we all just want to convince ourselves that we made the best decision. Those who made another decision must be wrong at all costs, or by default, we are wrong.
I can; without hesitation say that "your" (meaning everyone, not singling anyone out) decision in the format war doesn't even enter mind. I bought what I bought to watch high definition movies, mission accomplished... Honestly "your" choice in the format war is about as important to me as what brand toilet paper you use.

I'm a bit dumbfounded as to why anyone needs to validate their CE purchases, it's as if we're suddenly all co-dependant on one another, what's next; rate my remote?

The more posts I read here the more I am coming to the conclusion that the argument, at least to a large extent, is no longer about quality and content, but something else and in many cases appears totally irrational - which is a shame because it seems somewhat puerile and demeans this forum.

In the third thread that I startted on the forum, an HD DVD supporter took the time to explain to me the war was really about a clash of ideas. It opened my eyes. Too bad his post was lost when my thread was deleted.

I don't know that it's fair to paint all of the newcomers with the same broad brush. While I agree the post quality on these sections of AVS has plummeted like a rock over the past months, let's not tie this into an age bracket.

The level of rational thought here isn't so much a function of age (there are a number of prolific posters here who are older than the teenage gamer stereotype and don't even own a game console). In fact, it would not surprise me to learn that the majority of high post count partisans on both sides are well above the age of 20.

It seems more to me like there are a lot of people on this forum who have gotten so used to posting from one position or another that they've turned off their critical thinking and are just posting like broken records because it's the path of least resistance for them.

the reason for the acrimony here is the studios.

we do not have studios saying ... we will not release content for dlp projectors.

or

we will not release content for lcd projectors.

what would happen in the projector forums if disney said they will not support anything that works with lcd?

there are debates over dlp vs. lcd but they remain civilized because the studios are not trying to cram one technology or the other down peoples throats.

if i hate anything in this format war, it is the calls for the death of one technology or the other and imo the studios are the root cause. of the studios, sony is the biggest pain in the rear because they put bd into the ps3 and carried the game console format war into home theater.

as far as i am concerned, the studios don't get to decide what projector i buy and as long as i have a chioce, they don't get to decide what kind of optical disc player i buy either.

I bought into HD optical the day I could get my hands on it, this was HDDVD. This format came right out with great performing product at a price that was impossible for me to resist (compared to DVD at release) leaving little relative risk. Even before the formats were released there was heated debate and this was before anyone owned anything ! It was funny that after guys bought HDDVD the BD supporters basically said HDDVD will get hammered as soon as BD was released and the tone was anyone buying HDDVD was an idiot for having done so.Since then the dichotomy has continued and the vitriol proliferated.

As soon as I saw that there were going to be a few films that I wanted that were BD only I bought a player. I have both formats neither are perfect , still the best we have ever had ! So much of the debate (and that is giving this interaction more credit than it deserves) has been a lot of ego and male posturing. I can read it easily since I feel it.

Interstingly, the BD supporters looking down their noses at HDDVD people has increased the digging in of heals and has increased the apparent irrationality IMO.

This is so much like support for a sports team. I'm a Michigan alum, I hate Notre Dame because they have gotten tons of great press and exposure despite not having great teams for some time. Just getting a new coach and they are on the cover of every magazine on the planet with the "Tradition". Well to make a long story short when I saw they were ranked # 36 preseason I just got this great feeling over my whole body. :D This is so much like what we see on the forum with the two camps ...irrational maybe, but typical human nature.

Art

there are debates over dlp vs. lcd but they remain civilized because the studios are not trying to cram one technology or the other down peoples throats.

if i hate anything in this format war, it is the calls for the death of one technology or the other and imo the studios are the root cause.

This is absolutely that primary cause of the bitterness. The studios should be ashamed of themselves for creating this paradigm.

There is one other "irrational" reason I see here often, that being that adoption would somehow speed up if there were only one format.

For many it seems a tough pill to swallow that many consumers simply don't care about HDM, DVD is cheap & works fine for them. Few are going to spend the $$$ required for what they perceive as a small increase in performance.

I'm not certain how one format would solve the issues, but to some it seems as though it would.

This is so much like support for a sports team. I'm a Michigan alum, I hate Notre Dame because they have gotten tons of great press and exposure despite not having great teams for some time. Just getting a new coach and they are on the cover of every magazine on the planet with the "Tradition". Well to make a long story short when I saw they were ranked # 36 preseason I just got this great feeling over my whole body. :D
Michigan who?

As a Notre Dame alum the feeling is mutual.

Michigan who?

As a Notre Dame alum the feeling is mutual.Hey, as a Purdue alum I agree with and understand Art's opinion. :D

Michigan who?

As a Notre Dame alum the feeling is mutual.

Just remember this was only to make a point, not to start a firestorm. :D However, it looks like my point is being proven rather quickly ! ;)

Art

Just remember this was only to make a point, not to start a firestorm. :D However, it looks like my point is being proven rather quickly ! ;)

Art

The point you are proving IMO, is how quickly these threads fly off on a tangent as opposed to staying on target and discussing the OP - which is a variation of the Mark Rubin thread.

I bought into HD optical the day I could get my hands on it, this was HDDVD. This format came right out with great performing product at a price that was impossible for me to resist (compared to DVD at release) leaving little relative risk. Even before the formats were released there was heated debate and this was before anyone owned anything ! It was funny that after guys bought HDDVD the BD supporters basically said HDDVD will get hammered as soon as BD was released and the tone was anyone buying HDDVD was an idiot for having done so.Since then the dichotomy has continued and the vitriol proliferated.

As soon as I saw that there were going to be a few films that I wanted that were BD only I bought a player. I have both formats neither are perfect , still the best we have ever had ! So much of the debate (and that is giving this interaction more credit than it deserves) has been a lot of ego and male posturing. I can read it easily since I feel it.

Interstingly, the BD supporters looking down their noses at HDDVD people has increased the digging in of heals and has increased the apparent irrationality IMO.

This is so much like support for a sports team. I'm a Michigan alum, I hate Notre Dame because they have gotten tons of great press and exposure despite not having great teams for some time. Just getting a new coach and they are on the cover of every magazine on the planet with the "Tradition". Well to make a long story short when I saw they were ranked # 36 preseason I just got this great feeling over my whole body. :D This is so much like what we see on the forum with the two camps ...irrational maybe, but typical human nature.

Art


You know, I think Art is on to something here...... "ego and male posturing".

We will fight for what we want and believe in, and sometimes revert to High School behavior to get it.

Or maybe it just goes with society today.
Some young kids don't show respect for older people as previous generations have.

I'm 45, and have been in a situation or two, where several young punks were being mouthy, etc, when they knew they would get their ass handed to them.
When I was that age I would have never been that way with older people.

Maybe these traits have spilled over into the HD discussions.

You know, I think Art is on to something here...... "ego and male posturing".

We will fight for what we want and believe in, and sometimes revert to High School behavior to get it.

Or maybe it just goes with society today.
Some young kids don't show respect for older people as previous generations have.

I'm 45, and have been in a situation or two, where several young punks were being mouthy, etc, when they knew they would get their ass handed to them.
When I was that age I would have never been that way with older people.

Maybe these traits have spilled over into the HD discussions.

It relates to the safety of knowing that no bodily harm can come to you no matter what you say - worse case - you are banned. Beats a black eye any day of the week ;)

Just remember this was only to make a point, not to start a firestorm. :D However, it looks like my point is being proven rather quickly ! ;)
Art, I was joking. Just a friendly intercollegiate rival jab. No one is trying to start a firestorm. I graduated almost 20 years ago, so I'm used to the love/hate passions people feel toward ND.

The point you are proving IMO, is how quickly these threads fly off on a tangent as opposed to staying on target and discussing the OP - which is a variation of the Mark Rubin thread.
Huh? Please. Just having a little fun. Don't get your panties up in a bunch.

... we now return to our originally scheduled programing.

This entire subforum should just be shut down. It no longer contains anything useful to this site. We have a forum for HD DVD and BD players and content. What added value does this subforum bring? Very little compared to the damage it does to the site as a whole. It's only purpose is to cover the sporting aspect of the "format war."

When weighing the merits and demerits of this subforum as a whole, I think it's a net negative to the site now. If anything should be left open, perhaps its the insiders threads, as that is a fairly unique feature to this site. Other than that, the "HDTV Software Media Discussion" no longer contains useful information. It only serves as a place for partisan combatants to square off. If we are all tired of that sort of thing, lets just end it now by closing this subforum.

This entire subforum should just be shut down. It no longer contains anything useful to this site. We have a forum for HD DVD and BD players and content. What added value does this subforum bring? Very little compared to the damage it does to the site as a whole. It's only purpose is to cover the sporting aspect of the "format war."

When weighing the merits and demerits of this subforum as a whole, I think it's a net negative to the site now. If anything should be left open, perhaps its the insiders threads, as that is a fairly unique feature to this site. Other than that, the "HDTV Software Media Discussion" no longer contains useful information. It only serves as a place for partisan combatants to square off. If we are all tired of that sort of thing, lets just end it now by closing this subforum.

You are 100% correct - but Mark has already voiced that this isn't going to happen . . . now what?

As membership grows on this forum it seems to me there are now a disproportionate number of members, who to me, appear somewhat irrational. If what we are basically concerned with here is quality and content then why all the fanaticism with respect to one format or the other? It used to be fanaticism about quality, which can seem a little irrational at times, but acceptable on a venue such as this. Given the quality of both BD and HD DVD the obsession shown by some supporters to their chosen format seems to me, at least, completely irrational.

An HD DVD supporter hates extra copy protection in general and Sony in particular so even if a BD player sells for $199 he won't buy it to watch movies he loves in HD? Or simply - "I hate Sony!" Why? Is it because Sony knows who he is and is hunting him down? A little paranoid or what? A BD supporter refuses to purchase an HD DVD player for maybe $149. Why? Is it because MS is behind some sort of consapiracy to kill HD optical disks? In one post a BD supporter argues that he shouldn't have to purchase an HD DVD player, no matter what the cost, just to watch Universal titles that are of poor quality and are lousy movies anyway. Oh really! Has he seen any of these movies on HD DVD? A few posts later he argues why Universal should and will go neutral. Why would he care if he isn't interested in Universal's titles anyway? This stuff makes no sense!

The more posts I read here the more I am coming to the conclusion that the argument, at least to a large extent, is no longer about quality and content, but something else and in many cases appears totally irrational - which is a shame because it seems somewhat puerile and demeans this forum.

Cheers,

Grant

I just read through the comments and saw that the point I am making hasn't been brought up yet. I think one of the reasons that people get so passionate about one format or the other is in some cases rooted in the whole "copy protection" concept. I spent some time reading through the lengthy thread called "AACS not so cracked after all...", which is a funny thread title because by the time the thread got to about 20 pages, AACS was a dead, floating, rotting corpse being chewed up on a daily basis by the hackers who like nothing more than to do just that.

It is pretty clear that people who either support or do not support 1) copy protection, 2) managed copy, 3) fair use backup, or 4) unlimited distribution via bit torrent of all copyrighted HD material, have strong arguments about why or why not the above should or should not be happening.

If you thought, as some do, that company XYZ's only purpose was to extract every available dollar from consumers pockets by making them repeatedly re-purchase their favorite movie on every new medium that comes out every 5 years, and also not allow a fair use backup copy to be made, while also instilling a complex authentication system that would make Big Brother smile with delight, and also preclude you from storing the content on a protected home server, then you might tend to be more passionate than if the subject being discussed were nothing more than "which format is better" :)

While not being a fanboy of either format or even owning an HD optical player, I would have to say that my main concern with all the added complexity required to support this is that it adds to the likelyhood of things going wrong somewhere down the line as in general it is best to keep things simple, and, I also think that there is a real possibility that other countries that don't have to deal with the same set of legal issues, might end up getting more access to better content than we do here, cause every new twist and turn or improvement will be challenged in court. I.e. Kaleidescape...

My 2 cents,
RT

You are 100% correct - but Mark has already voiced that this isn't going to happen . . . now what?

For me, I try to post here less - because I realize I'm part of the problem.

This entire subforum should just be shut down. It no longer contains anything useful to this site. We have a forum for HD DVD and BD players and content. What added value does this subforum bring? Very little compared to the damage it does to the site as a whole. It's only purpose is to cover the sporting aspect of the "format war."

When weighing the merits and demerits of this subforum as a whole, I think it's a net negative to the site now. If anything should be left open, perhaps its the insiders threads, as that is a fairly unique feature to this site. Other than that, the "HDTV Software Media Discussion" no longer contains useful information. It only serves as a place for partisan combatants to square off. If we are all tired of that sort of thing, lets just end it now by closing this subforum.

Honestly we all aren't tired of it as we still post here. You have to admit it is pretty entertaining.

Excellent thread. Both the initial post and Art's about human nature say it very well. As far as I'm concerned, I have no desire for either format to die, and as long as the quality is there, I'll buy both.

For me, I try to post here less - because I realize I'm part of the problem.

Thank you for your honesty - your credibility rating just went up in my book. Kudo's to you for admitting it and trying to do something about it.

Honestly we all aren't tired of it as we still post here. You have to admit it is pretty entertaining.

Sure, it's entertaining for me to post my vitriol, I just don't want to read other peoples vitriol. :)

No, you're irrational!

;)

The problem is that we have people on this forum that are being paid to trash the other side as much as possible. Then you have the people that work for companies that have a finacial interest in a particular format, and their job may depend on that company winning. Of course almost all of these people will post as objective observers. Art has been around here for a long time and I agree with his sentiments totally.

Wow! Some constructive posts here. Admitting that many of us are part of the problem (and many of us are) is a pretty good start. Just for fun we should switch sides for a day and only post positive things about the other format. I'm sure someone just logging on will think he/she just entered the Twlight Zone. :D

Cheers,

Grant

Sure, it's entertaining for me to post my vitriol, I just don't want to read other peoples vitriol. :)

Hey!! Are you saying your vitriol is better then MY vitriol? :) :)

I'm 45, and have been in a situation or two, where several young punks were being mouthy, etc, when they knew they would get their ass handed to them.

When I was that age I would have never been that way with older people.


Boy you got that right, and I'm sure there are a lot of us who feel the same about these sort of things. You'd think folks would get enough "road rage" in real life these days that they would not bring it here too? :eek:

The problem is that we have people on this forum that are being paid to trash the other side as much as possible.

Nothing new here, do you remember "user group news" before the WWW? Some of us could go on for days about some firms behavior in those days. ;)

Why would he care if he isn't interested in Universal's titles anyway? This stuff makes no sense!

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. I would be happy if Universal went neutral because it would probably bring this thing to an end, or closer but at the same time I'm not actually a big fan of Universal's output. Looking at my existing collection the number of Universal titles is about 15%, I think Lionsgate might be lowest but they're minnows compared to Universal. So I'd buy some titles but I'm hardly having a tough time going without.

Interestingly, and sadly, the Universal titles I do want (4-5) have received poor reviews on their PQ which leads me to believe Universal plans to double dip on them.

I agree that there's a lot of irrationality here but a lot of it is seemingly tolerated as long as it's not directed in the direction of the reader. Personally I'm against all irrationality, there shouldn't be a place for it. I also believe this is a symptom of a wider problem in the USA where logic is being progressively marginalised by those who want things their way even if it defies logic.

There are many other ways to get HD content. I think it's silly to boycott BD forever, but it won't stop most people from seeing BD titles in HD.

I bought into HD optical the day I could get my hands on it, this was HDDVD. This format came right out with great performing product...This reminds me of the most irrational argument of all: Since HDDVD has enough bandwidth and capacity for one movie, it has enough for all. We'll never ever ever need more. Ever.

Amazing.

This reminds me of the most irrational argument of all: Since HDDVD has enough bandwidth and capacity for one movie, it has enough for all. We'll never ever ever need more. Ever.

Amazing.What is irrational or untrue about the statement you quoted? It has nothing to do with the thing you posted, and most would welcome increased disc size for the couple of movies that might need a little extra.

In one post a BD supporter argues that he shouldn't have to purchase an HD DVD player, no matter what the cost, just to watch Universal titles that are of poor quality and are lousy movies anyway. Oh really! Has he seen any of these movies on HD DVD? A few posts later he argues why Universal should and will go neutral. Why would he care if he isn't interested in Universal's titles anyway? This stuff makes no sense!

I've seen this and it is idiotic and irrational.

Just think about all the conversations we would miss if there was only one format!

HD guy: HD DVD outsells Blu ray in hardware! Woohoo!
BD guy: No it doesn't! They didn't count the PS3! With the PS3 Blu Ray wins the hardware sales hands down!
HD guy: So how come that with all these millions of players in the field BD only sold about 50.000 copies of PotC? That's a rather bad attachment rate!
BD guy: Ummm, what? Who said the PS3 counts as a player? How dare you!

^^ I actually laughed out loud reading that. Thanks!

I totally agree. I do not care about companies or studios. I only care about one format with alot of content.

There is one other "irrational" reason I see here often, that being that adoption would somehow speed up if there were only one format.

For many it seems a tough pill to swallow that many consumers simply don't care about HDM, DVD is cheap & works fine for them. Few are going to spend the $$$ required for what they perceive as a small increase in performance.

I'm not certain how one format would solve the issues, but to some it seems as though it would.

1 format = studio confidence = less holding back movies = more consumer attention (If said consumer likes a wide variety movies)

Just a theory...


For the record, I own an HD-A1 & PS3.

I COMPLETELY agree with Art in comparing this format war to our love of various sports teams and competition. The sports team I am cheering for in this format war is not either Blu-ray or HD-DVD, it is HD Optical. I truly feel that if this war continues on for too much longer companies such as Microsoft and Apple will get their way and HD Optical will fail.

It is no secret that I "switched sides" and became predominately a Blu-ray supporter late last year. I did not do this due to hating HD-DVD, I did this as I felt and still feel Blu-ray is our best hope of HD Optical survivability. Would I be upset if HD-DVD eventually wins the format war and seriously challenges DVD? NOT ONE BIT!

I agree that the war is good for the consumer in that it brings the cost of hardware down, however this is bad for CE companies as they have less and less incentive to enter the HD world. I think we are preparing to enter the most poinient moment in HD Optical's lifespan and that is the 4th Quarter of 2007. I pretty much see it like this as of right now:

If players are readily available from both sides in the $250.00 range and the 4th Quarter plays out like May of 2007 (Low sales for Pirates and Matrix) I truly feel HD Optical is in danger.

If Blu-ray follows through with this "blitz" of releases in the 4th Quarter and achieves an 80:20 sales advantage, I believe this will be what pushes Universal to neutrality in 1st Quarter of 2008. This for all intents and purposes would end this format war and would position Blu-ray to start to take on DVD.

If Blu-ray achieves the above-mentioned "Victory" and takes on DVD head-to-head over the course of 2008 and only achieves anemic sales of 5:95 or 10:90 then HD Optical will be dead.

I think the next 18 months will tell us definitively if HD Optical will make it or not.

GO HD OPTICAL!! :)

~Josh

1 format = studio confidence = less holding back movies = more consumer attention (If said consumer likes a wide variety movies)

Just a theory...


For the record, I own an HD-A1 & PS3.

Am I mistaken, or is it only the HD DVD supporters who consistently question the idea that the format war is deterring wider adoption of HD discs?

1 format = studio confidence = less holding back movies = more consumer attention (If said consumer likes a wide variety movies)

Just a theory...


For the record, I own an HD-A1 & PS3.
I agree and add that many are staying out of HD due to the possibility of buying a format that will go away soon. I know I stayed out for about 9 months because of that. I am also wary about buying content for the same reason and tend to stick to movies I can get fairly cheap. I would be more willing to spend more if there were only one format.

For those that say that movies will not self destruct, players do and players also take up space and connections and that is just something I do not want to deal with for the next 8-10 years.

1 format = studio confidence = less holding back movies = more consumer attention (If said consumer likes a wide variety movies)

Just a theory...


For the record, I own an HD-A1 & PS3.
To an extent I agree, but I see a larger hurdle being the overall cost to enter the HDM arena.

For the avg consumer:

- they'll buy a disc that only plays in one machine? I.E. they're standing in the store looking at the new XYZ "kids" movie....buy the BD/HD-DVD version that doesn't work in the car? doesn't work in the kids room? doesn't work in the upstairs machine? OR buy the DVD version that does?

- DVDs look pretty good, tell me again why I should spend $200 - $500 for a new player? I spend the money to have the above issue when buying movies.

- Why should I pay $20 for movies when I can get them in the bargain bin for $5, or previously viewed @ BB 4 or 5 for $20?

I truly feel that if this war continues on for too much longer companies such as Microsoft and Apple will get their way and HD Optical will fail.
While I see this "fight" as valid, I don't see the "war" having much affect. If anything the "war" is decreasing the chances for downloading - it's forced prices to drop much faster. IMO price is a big factor, the avg consumer is not going to buy in until prices are much lower. For example, the PS3 sales are not what was expected - why? The general public voted $600 was too expensive.

(note: that's not a console knock, it's simply an example of consumer spending)

Am I mistaken, or is it only the HD DVD supporters who consistently question the idea that the format war is deterring wider adoption of HD discs?
Not certain, while I own one format I have zero issues with & would gladly purchase the other........................when the price is right. Every HDTV owner I've talked with has mentioned price as the factor, none have said "when there's a winner". Purely ancedotal, but I don't think it's too far off the mark.

One group likes to say "when we have one format HDM will take off"

I prefer "when we have one format AND the price is very close to DVD HDM will take off".

Am I mistaken, or is it only the HD DVD supporters who consistently question the idea that the format war is deterring wider adoption of HD discs?
Could be. But you have to define wider adoption. Among the participants here the HD-DVD side seems to look at entry with a low cost player and addition of a lower cost BD player at sometime in the future. The BD side, faced with a higher cost of entry seems more reluctant to take that path, and wants one format.

One group likes to say "when we have one format HDM will take off"

I prefer "when we have one format AND the price is very close to DVD HDM will take off".

And that will still not guarantee that HDM does not remain a niche format for years to come. HDM is an upgrade over DVD - an evolutionary step up. If PQ is not that important to you - then it is a step that can be avoided - just keep buying DVD.

HDM is not the only source of HD. There are 4 other sources for HD not including DNL's. The fact that it offers a better PQ than the other 4? Big Deal. And as soon as J6P sees Discovery HD Theater versus a movie on HDM - he will argue your "better PQ" theory right out the window.

Could be. But you have to define wider adoption. Among the participants here the HD-DVD side seems to look at entry with a low cost player and addition of a lower cost BD player at sometime in the future. The BD side, faced with a higher cost of entry seems more reluctant to take that path, and wants one format.

Well, part of the definition of "wider adoption" is adoption by people who are currently not part of either the "HD DVD side" or the "BD side."

I support the format war. It brings down prices, makes studios a bit more afraid of extreme copy protection, and forces them a bit to compete on video quality. Sure it hurts format adoption but that will be taken care of when prices become low enough and some time passes.

The only annoying thing about the format war is the embittered and semi-religious argments it seems to spawn here on AVS.

- Tom

Well, part of the definition of "wider adoption" is adoption by people who are currently not part of either the "HD DVD side" or the "BD side."
Oh, if that's what you mean, I think the HD-DVD side knows that lower prices will drive wider adoption, because they already have that experience, and not a single format.

I support the format war. It brings down prices, makes studios a bit more afraid of extreme copy protection, and forces them a bit to compete on video quality. Sure it hurts format adoption but that will be taken care of when prices become low enough and some time passes.

The only annoying thing about the format war is the embittered and semi-religious argments it seems to spawn here on AVS.

- Tom

Thank you Tom

there are significant positive advances that only this format battle could produce:

if we could all spend some time identifying these advances we might never have seen without this competition...

Come on folks!!! we all know it is over for HD DVD except for the fat lady singing ;)

Come on folks!!! we all know it is over for HD DVD except for the fat lady singing ;)

I did not realize either side had anounced any opera collections yet. Though I did see The Magic Flute in HD on PBS. ;)

- Tom

I did not realize either side had anounced any opera collections yet. Though I did see The Magic Flute in HD on PBS. ;)

- Tom

Does Phantom of the Opera count? How is the movie, worth getting on blu-ray?

there are significant positive advances that only this format battle could produce:Wrong. There is other competition to BD: DVD, TV, TiVo, downloads, etc. etc. etc. BD will continue innovating once HDDVD dies, because the companies want to sell as much product as possible.

It's been like this since the romans invented the colloseum and had gladiators bash each other's heads in. I used to think it was the age of the participants. Now I realize that soccer and hockey matches are the same.

When you have two players willing to bash each others' heads in, there will be people screaming for blood goading them on. That's the way it's always been.

What complicates this is that there appears to be industry participants in this fight, and some paid red and paid blu people in the audience that makes it more complex than it has to be. If the audience are screaming for the players to slash each other, it's fun. When the audience turns on other audience, that's just outright unsportsman-like. Even if some of the audience are planted.

Thank you Tom

there are significant positive advances that only this format battle could produce:

if we could all spend some time identifying these advances we might never have seen without this competition...

I respectfully disagree.

I've heard 'Betamax' from mainstream consumers. I've also been asked by family members who probably won't purchase regardless which format will 'win'. My dad did have a nice collection of Beta movies, though - I'm sure that's a factor.

As long as the mainstream consumer frames this war as the new VHS vs Betamax rather than another Xbox vs PlayStation war, it's holding up adoption. That it has brought prices down is clearly a positive, but I don't think any of us has the data to tell when the war starts to hurt rather than help. If the hypothetical Sony-Toshiba compromise had happened, we would at least have had the PS3 to keep a lid on player prices and drive adoption. Think PS2 in Japan.

Does Phantom of the Opera count? How is the movie, worth getting on blu-ray?

Not quite as clear if BD is dying since the fat lady singing is not in TrueHD ;)

From Mark Rubin's now closed thread to thebland's subsequent poll, it is obvious that many members on here have claimed to pledged a sole devotion to their preferred format, and the irrational behavior that has been associated with this is definitely not a characteristic AVS had a couple years back.I recall that the SACD vs DVD-A "war" had it's share of opponents also (...but it was a smaller crowd overall).

BTW - I do agree wholeheartedly with those who opine that the format war has been beneficial to the quality offered on both formats. It has encouraged studios to put better sound and video on these discs, and also has encouraged rather rapid improvements in encoding quality.

Further, I feel it has encouraged hardware manufacturers to improve the offerings and decoders supported by their products.

It is no secret that I "switched sides" and became predominately a Blu-ray supporter late last year. Hi Josh - with full respect, I don't recall when you were an HD DVD supporter?

However, I do not think you will be proven correct with the 80:20 sales prediction. The last Nielsen week is back to 61:39, which seems to indicate that HD DVD is still steadily closing the sales gap.

61:39 is not closing the gap. HD DVD has a longgg way to go. THe players are cheap but no other manufacturer will make one and most B&M retailers avoid pushing them. 80:20 will likely be a reality come Christmas. Even $99 HD DVD players won't help.

61:39 is not closing the gap. HD DVD has a longgg way to go.

It sure doesn't look like the gap is getting perceptably wider. For the last 7 months, the sales ratio has stayed roughly the same, it appears to me. There is some variation, but BD has around 65%-67% of the market share.

I don't know how you classify a "longgg" way to go, but at this point HD DVD has to pick up 11% of the market share to be tied again. That doesn't seem to bad to me.

The last Nielsen week is back to 61:39, which seems to indicate that HD DVD is still steadily closing the sales gap.Just like your previous Nielsen "explanations", this so-called trend is nowhere near the facts. Nielsen's numbers went up the week before, and this is the closest HD DVD has got since the end of May.

It sure doesn't look like the gap is getting perceptably wider. For the last 7 months, the sales ratio has stayed roughly the same, it appears to me. There is some variation, but BD has around 65%-67% of the market share.

I don't know how you classify a "longgg" way to go, but at this point HD DVD has to pick up 11% of the market share to be tied again. That doesn't seem to bad to me.


I asked on the Nielsen thread but no one answered; is there anyway to see what sales percentages the HDM new release titles have in the SD versions over the same time period? This would help me a lot in deciding if I should jump on one of the $199 A2 deals and start enjoying HDMs now or until wait until after the holidays to see how things are shaping up.

It sure doesn't look like the gap is getting perceptably wider. For the last 7 months, the sales ratio has stayed roughly the same, it appears to me. There is some variation, but BD has around 65%-67% of the market share.

I don't know how you classify a "longgg" way to go, but at this point HD DVD has to pick up 11% of the market share to be tied again. That doesn't seem to bad to me.The 61:39 was of course for a week where HD DVD had multiple releases and Blu-ray had none, while we will see how it goes when it was the other way when we get the next data. Could strengthen your point about 65-67% being the trend. If that is the case then another way to look at that is that if BD stays steady, then all HD DVD has to do is double their sales to be about even or pull just slightly ahead. Using your method a format that was getting outsold by 99:1 only has to pick up 49% market share, which doesn't seem too bad when you put it that way. So, that is about all either format has to do to match DVD. Just pick up 49% market share. :)

--Darin

The 61:39 was of course for a week where HD DVD had multiple releases and Blu-ray had none, while we will see how it goes when it was the other way when we get the next data. Could strengthen your point about 65-67% being the trend. If that is the case then another way to look at that is that if BD stays steady, then all HD DVD has to do is double their sales to be about even or pull just slightly ahead. Using your method a format that was getting outsold by 99:1 only has to pick up 49% market share, which doesn't seem too bad when you put it that way. So, that is about all either format has to do to match DVD. Just pick up 49% market share. :)

--Darin
Yes, but it's my story so I tell it my way :)