The only thing Blu-ray has is bigger disc size, which has been meaningless so far.My top 5 in no particular order: Capacity (ROM - movie releases), Capacity (BD-R and BD-RW - for personal storage, including self made movies. I hear people are now even putting ripped HD-DVD movies on Blu-ray themselves), Faster recording (burning) speeds, Bandwith (My #1), and of course the scratch resistent hard coating which (I'll be honest) I've really fallen in love with :o

Bandwidth? Not a problem with VC-1 and AVC improvements. Plus aren't we still waiting for some Muxing improvements in VC-1. I know that you are desirious to make a absolute connection between higher bitrate and quality but it's a bit more complex than that.

Logic is not complex at all.

Until VC-1 and AVC can do lossless encodes then the higher the bitrate the better.

I have already seen an IMAX 3D film on HD DVD - Bugs!. Are there any BD 3D movies out?

I enjoy movies more when they are encoded properly for the better format, not when they are handicapped by being encoded to fit within HD DVD's rather lowly specs.

Paramount can do seperate encodes, who says New Line won't?

What Paramount movies are seperate encodes?

Logic is not complex at all.

Until VC-1 and AVC can do lossless encodes then the higher the bitrate the better.

Once would need the Master as a reference wouldn't they?

What Paramount movies are seperate encodes?


You're not serious are you?

What Paramount movies are seperate encodes? All of them.
You're not serious are you?
:D

Has this been posted yet?

http://www.timesdaily.com/article/20070725/APF/707250873

Says Target will be selling Sony Blu-ray players this holiday season. Is this the big news?

All of them.

:D


:D

Of course I can say it. It's well supported with empirical fact. I wouldn't say the extra 20GB is meaningless without providing some context.

"The extra 20GB of data available to Blu-ray is qualitatively meaningless" The movie could and should look the same whether it resides on a 30 gigger or a 50 gigger. The Prestige kind of backs this up.

By the time Lord of the Rings hits it's likely that HD DVD sizing will be 17/34/51GB which corresponds to single/double/triple layer discs.

Microsoft will continue to improve VC-1 the AVC will continue to improve and Target will continue to support both formats happily.

You missed my point.

I wasn't implying 30GB HD-DVD doesn't get the job done - you inferred that. It is getting the job done - right now. I think you're being a little defensive in replying to a neutral, yet realistic member.

Also, the Prestige is under 3 hours.

Honestly, wouldn't you rather have King Kong with TrueHD?

Also, in your opinion, when do you think triple-layer HD-DVD will be ready? By the end of 2008?

I'd say you'll likely see LOTR on HDM in some form next year. I have yet to see any info that would have triple-layer HD-DVD out in that time frame, but maybe I missed it. Seriously, are they even still working on it? I haven't read anything about it in a long time. I'd like to know.

Also, from what I recall, there's a good chance triple-layer would not be compatible with current HD-DVD hardware. IMO that's a worse scenario than the Profile 1.1 stuff on BD if true.

Finally, I get your devotion to HD-DVD, and that's cool. However, without any offense intended, you are coming off as a bit of a fanatic, and frankly that's not helping your posts IMO. I'm just trying to talk about this stuff from a dispassionate point of view.

Has this been posted yet?

http://www.timesdaily.com/article/20070725/APF/707250873

Says Target will be selling Sony Blu-ray players this holiday season. Is this the big news?

We have a winner!

Target Corp., the nation's second-largest retailer, will start selling a Sony Blu-ray high-definition DVD player during the critical holiday shopping period and feature the player along with DVDs in the format in store displays, dealing a potential blow to the rival HD DVD format.



The move, which the companies will formally announce Thursday, is another step in resolving a format war that has kept confused consumers from rushing to buy new DVD players until they can determine which format will dominate the market.



Target will sell the Sony BDP-S300 for $499 in October and display it along with Blu-ray DVDs from three studios, including Sony and The Walt Disney Co., at the ends of store aisles.



The Target announcement came five weeks after a decision by video rental chain Blockbuster Inc. to offer only Blu-ray titles when it expands its high-def offerings this fall.



Blu-ray is backed by Sony Corp., which developed it. Most Hollywood studios are releasing films either exclusively in Blu-ray or together with the rival HD DVD format, which is backed by its developer, Toshiba Corp.



Only Universal Studios, a unit of General Electric Corp., is releasing films exclusively in HD DVD.



Both formats offer a crisper, brighter high definition picture as well as more storage that allows interactive features and games to be packaged with movies.



Consumers have been slow to embrace either format, worried they might get stuck with a losing technology.



Target does not sell high-def DVD players in its stores, although it does sell a Toshiba player for $299 on its Web site



Target stores do sell an HD DVD add-on for the Microsoft X-Box 360 as well as Sony Corp.'s PlayStation 3, which comes with a Blu-ray player built in.



Target would not say why it decided to sell only Blu-ray players. Sony is paying a fee to have their products featured in the end-of-aisle display, called an endcap, although Sony executives said the retailer contacted them about the decision.



"We are not proclaiming one format vs. the other as the preferred consumer technology, and software will continue to be available to our guests in both the Blu-ray and HD-DVD format," Target spokeswoman Brie Heath said.



Target will track customer feedback and adjust offerings as necessary, Heath said.



The HD DVD camp was not fazed by the Target decision, pointing out that HD DVD players continue to outsell Blu-ray players, which are at least twice the cost. They also point out that HD DVD players and DVDs are featured in endcap displays in Circuit City and Best Buy stores.



HD DVD promoters also contend that consumers are more influenced by price than product selection.



"HD DVD players are the most affordable," said Ken Graffeo, co-president of the North American HD DVD Promotional Group. "It's one thing to have a player featured, but it's another if it doesn't sell."



While more titles are available in the Blu-ray format, this fall should provide a head-to-head contest between the two formats.



Two blockbuster films - "Spider-Man 3," from Sony and "Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End" from Disney - will be available exclusively on Blu-ray.



The HD DVD camp will be counting on sales of the blockbuster film "300," from Warner Bros., which will be released in both formats, and the first season of the popular sci-fi TV show "Heroes," which will be available exclusively on HD DVD.



---



AP Business Writer Joshua Freed contributed to this story from Minneapolis

Has this been posted yet?

http://www.timesdaily.com/article/20070725/APF/707250873

Says Target will be selling Sony Blu-ray players this holiday season. Is this the big news?

I imagine that's it.

Of course I can say it. It's well supported with empirical fact. I wouldn't say the extra 20GB is meaningless without providing some context.

"The extra 20GB of data available to Blu-ray is qualitatively meaningless" The movie could and should look the same whether it resides on a 30 gigger or a 50 gigger. The Prestige kind of backs this up.

By the time Lord of the Rings hits it's likely that HD DVD sizing will be 17/34/51GB which corresponds to single/double/triple layer discs.

Microsoft will continue to improve VC-1 the AVC will continue to improve and Target will continue to support both formats happily.


So, given the choice, you prefer that your movies and audio be compressed MORE, is what you are saying.

I have never seen anyone so gung ho about arguing for the lesser spec on a forum DEDICATED to getting the absolute best audio and PQ possible, no matter the medium. Whether you always notice it or not isn't the point, I can barely notice 720P versus 1080P, but who the hell am I to come onto AVSForum and argue that 720P is "just as good" for me? It is as if you have already decided that more space and more bandwidth is not an intrinsically good thing. So, in the world of hmurchison, let's just put everything on dual layer DVD's and compress the hell out of it, so long as most of us can't really percieve a huge difference? Or is 30GB the perfect, magic number for maximizing the video/audio/extras? Funny that happens to be the HD-DVD number too.

Listen who the hell knows if we "need" 50GB. I certainly don't care. But who am I to come onto AVSForum and argue for the lesser spec? The point is here I am, a nerd, on a forum dedicated to wanting the best possible specs for my video and sound that is technically feasible in a consumer based market.... so who does that make me to argue that it would be prudent and won't matter ever for me to have someone chop off 40% of the storage space and 37.5% of the peak bandwidth headroom on my discs and make it all up with more compression? I can't see into the future... so give me the bigger specs! I know how this technology game works... they eventually max it out, so given the choice of more versus less, give me the more! This *IS* AVSForum I'm in, right?

Has this been posted yet?

http://www.timesdaily.com/article/20070725/APF/707250873

Says Target will be selling Sony Blu-ray players this holiday season. Is this the big news?

That's it; war's over. Target is selling a standalone Blu-Ray player.

Beautiful news. I have yet to pick a side but I am starting to lean more towards Bluray.

So would this Target player be similar to the Walmart HD DVD player?

You're not serious are you?

I needed you to admit this so :

Shooter HD DVD (http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/shooter.html)

Shooter Blu-ray (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/shooter.html)

explain why Shooter has 20GB more data yet it doesn't score as highly as the HD DVD version?

If logic dicates that more space means better quality then it should be bore out in almost every circumstance.

What about The Prestige

http://www.mbmg.de/hd-discs/theprestige_bd-vs-hd/01.html

I can't see a difference yet the size of the movie is substantially different.

Time to boycott target?

Beautiful news. I have yet to pick a side but I am starting to lean more towards Bluray.

:D

And at $499 they will be sitting there after the holidays unless the endcap prominently features BD exclusives, like Cars, and all of the summer blockbusters.

Was the buildup to this worth it in the end? No. A minor victory, but a victory none the less.

I needed you to admit this so :

Shooter HD DVD (http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/shooter.html)

Shooter Blu-ray (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/shooter.html)

explain why Shooter has 20GB more data yet it doesn't score as highly as the HD DVD version? Wow, you provide evidence of your own misinformation.

HD DVD PQ: 4 stars
Blu-ray PQ: 4 stars

Brilliant.

LOL, well pretty anti-climactic... though at the same time along the lines of what was expected (by anyone that wasn't jacked up on hype).

Essentially, Target will promote Blu-ray going into the shopping season with prominent display space, and the S300 will be the only standalone sold in B&M up 'til the end of the year. It's certainly a plus for Blu-ray, but not really any strike against HD DVD per se.

Time to boycott target?

Undoubtedly.

So if Sony is paying for that space, IMO Toshiba needs to get their ass in gear right now and buy some space in Target (or Walmart) for a similar display if they're serious about staying competitive during the holidays.

Target is a huge holiday shopping location, and if Blu-Ray is left relatively unchecked in their stores, it's going to make a difference.

LOL, what a joke thread. The bickering on what format is more advanced overshadowed the news the thread was based on.

Once again, the rumor was false.

Undoubtedly.

Go ahead boycott them it will give them more of an excuse to dedicate all their HD media retail space to BD.

Really does anyone use logic anymore?

This seems like huge news, and potentially a huge domino. Time will tell however.

Go ahead boycott them it will give them more of an excuse to dedicate all their HD media retail space to BD.

Really does anyone use logic anymore?lol, says the guy who doesn't realize that you are both on the same side :rolleyes:

Based on economics. New Line isn't going to do seperate encodes for those of you who like to engage in specification flagellation. Stop beating yourself up...just enjoy the movie. I bet you watch movies with the bitrate meter up don't you :D

Less obstructive than watching it with PiP on :p

I guess that's news. Not quite the overwhelming landslide of pro-BD sentimentality we had been lead to expect however.


Didn't hurt CD-R to go from 650MB to 700MB did it?

Bandwidth? Not a problem with VC-1 and AVC improvements. Plus aren't we still waiting for some Muxing improvements in VC-1. I know that you are desirious to make a absolute connection between higher bitrate and quality but it's a bit more complex than that.


comparing adding a 3rd layer to a 2-layer system to extending the track-pitch a few more nanos on CD is moot.

And the "improvements" in AVC and VC1, while worth mentioning, do not close the gap in the bandwidth advantage on the BD format, as those same improvements would provide an even greater head-room on BD than before: a headroom that could be used for any feature one wishes to stream along with the feature film (such as multiple lossless audio tracks, music-only tracks etc.)

Wow, you provide evidence of your own misinformation.

HD DVD PQ: 4 stars
Blu-ray PQ: 4 stars

Brilliant.

I don't think Shooter or any Paramount title is particularly indicative of what Blu-Ray can do with extra space, given the use of the less efficient MPEG2 on the BD versions.

But when you have films that use VC1 or AVC on BD, there will definitely be the potential for BD to use this extra capacity to provide a better presentation.

EDIT: David beat me to this point.

So if Sony is paying for that space, IMO Toshiba needs to get their ass in gear right now and buy some space in Target (or Walmart) for a similar display if they're serious about staying competitive during the holidays.

Target is a huge holiday shopping location, and if Blu-Ray is left relatively unchecked in their stores, it's going to make a difference.

No it isn't. I said it before and I'll say it again. Target is not the place people shop for CE stuff. Have you been to that area lately? A few TVs, some cheap DVD players, a couple of crappy "theater in a box" deals right next to the clock radios and karaoke machines.

To put things in perspective, their video game area usually occupies more space than their TV, DVD, and audio areas combined.

Target Stores To Give Boost To Blu-Ray DVD Format

LOS ANGELES, Jul. 25, 2007 - Target Corp., the nation's second-largest retailer, will start selling a Sony Blu-ray high-definition DVD player during the critical holiday shopping period and feature the player along with DVDs in the format in store displays, dealing a potential blow to the rival HD DVD format.

The move, which the companies will formally announce Thursday, is another step in resolving a format war that has kept confused consumers from rushing to buy new DVD players until they can determine which format will dominate the market.

Target will sell the Sony BDP-S300 for $499 in October and display it along with Blu-ray DVDs from three studios, including Sony and The Walt Disney Co., at the ends of store aisles.

The Target announcement came five weeks after a decision by video rental chain Blockbuster Inc. to offer only Blu-ray titles when it expands its high-def offerings this fall.

Blu-ray is backed by Sony Corp., which developed it. Most Hollywood studios are releasing films either exclusively in Blu-ray or together with the rival HD DVD format, which is backed by its developer, Toshiba Corp.

Only Universal Studios, a unit of General Electric Corp., is releasing films exclusively in HD DVD.

Both formats offer a crisper, brighter high definition picture as well as more storage that allows interactive features and games to be packaged with movies.

Consumers have been slow to embrace either format, worried they might get stuck with a losing technology.

Target does not sell high-def DVD players in its stores, although it does sell a Toshiba player for $299 on its Web site.

Target stores do sell an HD DVD add-on for the Microsoft X-Box 360 as well as Sony Corp.'s PlayStation 3, which comes with a Blu-ray player built in.

Target would not say why it decided to sell only Blu-ray players. Sony is paying a fee to have their products featured in the end-of-aisle display, called an endcap, although Sony executives said the retailer contacted them about the decision.

"We are not proclaiming one format vs. the other as the preferred consumer technology, and software will continue to be available to our guests in both the Blu-ray and HD-DVD format," Target spokeswoman Brie Heath said.

Target will track customer feedback and adjust offerings as necessary, Heath said.

The HD DVD camp was not fazed by the Target decision, pointing out that HD DVD players continue to outsell Blu-ray players, which are at least twice the cost. They also point out that HD DVD players and DVDs are featured in endcap displays in Circuit City and Best Buy stores.

HD DVD promoters also contend that consumers are more influenced by price than product selection.

"HD DVD players are the most affordable," said Ken Graffeo, co-president of the North American HD DVD Promotional Group. "It's one thing to have a player featured, but it's another if it doesn't sell."

While more titles are available in the Blu-ray format, this fall should provide a head-to-head contest between the two formats.

Two blockbuster films -- "Spider-Man 3," from Sony and "Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End" from Disney -- will be available exclusively on Blu-ray.

The HD DVD camp will be counting on sales of the blockbuster film "300," from Warner Bros., which will be released in both formats, and the first season of the popular sci-fi TV show "Heroes," which will be available exclusively on HD DVD.

Copyright 2007 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Once again, the rumor was false.

It was?

Supposedly, Paramount put those MPEG2 encodes on their BDs because *they* felt they looked superior to the slightly-smoothed VC1.

Naturally, the hardware (BD and HD DVD Players used) will play a role in determining overall differences in cases like this. We still see people report differences even when the same video file appears on both formats bcs of hardware differences.

Go ahead boycott them it will give them more of an excuse to dedicate all their HD media retail space to BD.

Really does anyone use logic anymore?

I think you misinterpreted my post. I meant that undoubtedly there are those who will now want to boycott Target. Believe me I am not among them.

Two blockbuster films -- "Spider-Man 3," from Sony and "Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End" from Disney -- will be available exclusively on Blu-ray.


+2 although not much of a fan of either one.

Not sure it'll make a difference at Target at $499. It's a decision, but since they still committed to supporting software for both formats, I don't think it'll mean much.

I think you misinterpreted my post. I meant that undoubtedly there are those who will now want to boycott Target. Believe me I am not among them.


My bad.

It was?

Yes, Target is not Blu-Ray exclusive as was originally posted. It's not even Hardware exclusive as Paidgeek said because Target still sells the 360 add-on.

The rumor did have something to do with Target though, I'll give it that! ;)

The HD DVD camp was not fazed by the Target decision, pointing out that HD DVD players continue to outsell Blu-ray players :rolleyes:

You missed my point.

I wasn't implying 30GB HD-DVD doesn't get the job done - you inferred that. It is getting the job done - right now. I think you're being a little defensive in replying to a neutral, yet realistic member.

Also, the Prestige is under 3 hours.

Honestly, wouldn't you rather have King Kong with TrueHD?

Also, in your opinion, when do you think triple-layer HD-DVD will be ready? By the end of 2008?

I'd say you'll likely see LOTR on HDM in some form next year. I have yet to see any info that would have triple-layer HD-DVD out in that time frame, but maybe I missed it. Seriously, are they even still working on it? I haven't read anything about it in a long time. I'd like to know.

Also, from what I recall, there's a good chance triple-layer would not be compatible with current HD-DVD hardware. IMO that's a worse scenario than the Profile 1.1 stuff on BD if true.

Finally, I get your devotion to HD-DVD, and that's cool. However, without any offense intended, you are coming off as a bit of a fanatic, and frankly that's not helping your posts IMO. I'm just trying to talk about this stuff from a dispassionate point of view.

No...the fact that you are neutral is great and that you want to be realistic is great. However I come from the standpoint that from production on down to delivery the impetus has been lower bitrates higher quality. I'd like to have King Kong with TrueHD althought it's a bit dubious that the difference would be audible. There have been little complaint about the AQ of the movie so the chants for TrueHD are there for those that wanted peace of mind.

Triple layer HD DVD, barring problems, should be ratified by year end 2007. Even if TL51 doesn't make it the DL34GB should be pretty solid. Mid 2008 would be a good test for the disc IMO.

I'm as disspassionate as they come. I respect your post and thoughts. I'm mainly coming from the PoV that we're not even close to seeing what AVC and VC-1 can do. They are still toddler codecs and thus it's a bit presumptuous to think that their efficiency won't improve. We've already seen it. King Kong proved that a 3hr movie could look and sound great on HD DVD. This movie was encoded over a year ago I believe. By the time LotR comes out they will have access to bigger discs and better encoding tools.

Fantatics are easy to refute. While I appear fantatical I'm merely pointing out the inconsistencies that exist in HDM. If you tell someone that bigger is always better then either you better make sure you have copious supporting data or hope that those who believe the contrary have a paucity of data.

To date I belive it's easy to see that size hasn't correlated to an improvement in quality as easy as many have posited.

No it isn't. I said it before and I'll say it again. Target is not the place people shop for CE stuff. Have you been to that area lately? A few TVs, some cheap DVD players, a couple of crappy "theater in a box" deals right next to the clock radios and karaoke machines.

To put things in perspective, their video game area usually occupies more space than their TV, DVD, and audio areas combined.

Yes, I have been in Target - at least once a week.

I would not say a few TV's - they usually at least 12 to 15 TV's, and a good percentage of them are HD-capable.

And no, Target's not the bastion of CE, but if they have a prominent endcap with BD on it during Q4, that will drive sales.

Again, if the news was that Toshiba had an endcap in Target and Sony didn't, we be hearing about how good this is for HD-DVD. I'm not saying it's a huge event, because it's not, but it's also unrealistic to paint it as a non-event.

Unless Target is offering a $200 rebate, I'm not concerned, $500 is still out of most people's budget.

"We are not proclaiming one format vs. the other as the preferred consumer technology, and software will continue to be available to our guests in both the Blu-ray and HD-DVD format," Target spokeswoman Brie Heath said.

Target will track customer feedback and adjust offerings as necessary, Heath said.

At least we got a full day's worth of battling in.

As one who considers himself neutral (although I have an A2 due to price and upconverting for now), I do wish posters would stop proclaiming that higher capacity is not a good thing.

I don't care much about features (extras), and have little interest in PiP, however implemented, however, it's never better to have limited capacity and/or bandwidth.

Yes, Target is not Blu-Ray exclusive as was originally posted. It's not even Hardware exclusive as Paidgeek said because Target still sells the 360 add-on.

The rumor did have something to do with Target though, I'll give it that! ;)

An interesting interpretation, but truthful enough. This isn't a landmark decision by any stretch, but I'm betting it will get news coverage and do more PR damage than some might expect.

It will be interesting to see what Pixar does with Cars on BD since their DVD release was relatively bare bones compared to their past 2-disc editions.

My 3yo loves the movie and if some of the interactivity is geared for the kiddies I will no doubt buy it on BD to watch him enjoy it. (nice excuse to tell the wife at least ;) )

Again, if the news was that Toshiba had an endcap in Target and Sony didn't, we be hearing about how good this is for HD-DVD. I'm not saying it's a huge event, because it's not, but it's also unrealistic to paint it as a non-event.

You wouldn't hear that from me...

But I totally agree with your post. This certainly isn't bad news for Blu, it's good for them! It's not the knock-out blow that was predicted by more than a few people.

A couple even went on to link the original rumor to a rumor that Best Buy was following suit and was also going "exclusively blu".

My bad.

No problem. ;)

Unless Target is offering a $200 rebate, I'm not concerned, $500 is still out of most people's budget.


Agreed. Content and the perception that BD is winning is going to have help sway this war in that consumers are not willing to pay $499.

I am guessing though on black friday, HD DVD players will be $199; BD will be $349. Again just a guess. Are consumers willing to pay $150 premium to get more exclusive content?

An interesting interpretation, but truthful enough. This isn't a landmark decision by any stretch, but I'm betting it will get news coverage and do more PR damage than some might expect.

Leave it up to press to **** up the story and announce that Target is Blu-ray exclusive.

Kind of like the Blockbuster press release.

No...the fact that you are neutral is great and that you want to be realistic is great. However I come from the standpoint that from production on down to delivery the impetus has been lower bitrates higher quality. I'd like to have King Kong with TrueHD althought it's a bit dubious that the difference would be audible. There have been little complaint about the AQ of the movie so the chants for TrueHD are there for those that wanted peace of mind.

Triple layer HD DVD, barring problems, should be ratified by year end 2007. Even if TL51 doesn't make it the DL34GB should be pretty solid. Mid 2008 would be a good test for the disc IMO.

I'm as disspassionate as they come. I respect your post and thoughts. I'm mainly coming from the PoV that we're not even close to seeing what AVC and VC-1 can do. They are still toddler codecs and thus it's a bit presumptuous to think that their efficiency won't improve. We've already seen it. King Kong proved that a 3hr movie could look and sound great on HD DVD. This movie was encoded over a year ago I believe. By the time LotR comes out they will have access to bigger discs and better encoding tools.

Fantatics are easy to refute. While I appear fantatical I'm merely pointing out the inconsistencies that exist in HDM. If you tell someone that bigger is always better then either you better make sure you have copious supporting data or hope that those who believe the contrary have a paucity of data.

To date I belive it's easy to see that size hasn't correlated to an improvement in quality as easy as many have posited.

Thanks for the reply - I appreciate it.

I'm still a little concerned about TL51 and backwards compatibility since I own an A1 and an A20. But I guess that's not something I really need to think about at the moment.

Also, to date my personal experience has not shown one format to "look better" than the other, so I would agree with you there. They both look great on a properly setup system.

My biggest concern with any HD format is the ability to deliver the absolute best PQ and AQ. If I had to buy LOTR on HD-DVD, I would much rather they split up the movies on 2 discs as they did for DVD even if they fit them on one disc for the BD. But that's all speculative until we see how it's encoded.

But one thing's for sure - if they don't put lossless audio on any eventual LOTR release, someone at New Line will pay dearly. :)

An interesting interpretation, but truthful enough. This isn't a landmark decision by any stretch, but I'm betting it will get news coverage and do more PR damage than some might expect.

I think so too. The importance is symbolic rather than practical.

Unless Target is offering a $200 rebate, I'm not concerned, $500 is still out of most people's budget.

It won't be $499 for very much longer. It certainly will be less than that by November.

Agreed. Content and the perception that BD is winning is going to have help sway this war that consumers are will to pay $499.

I am guessing though on black friday, HD DVD players will be $199; BD will be $349. Again just a guess. Are consumers willing to pay $150 premium to get more exclusive content?

I am thinking lower than $199 on Black Friday (and after, not just a hot deal on that day), especially since we have already seen $249 and limited $199.

I think so too. The importance is symbolic rather than practical.

+1

Even more symbolic than the BB announcement due to the fact that many actually got improved local availability of BD titles.

Up until now, Target had deliberately avoided carrying any stand-alone player. They said last year that they wanted to evaluate the situation first.

While not earthshaking, this is more important than people think. It is one of a series of events that are happening and validating the Blu-ray format.

Blockbuster, Denon, the flurry of indie distributors, now Target.

An avalanche is made up of small flakes of snow. Are we seeing an avalanche here?

It won't be $499 for very much longer. It certainly will be less than that by November.

Agreed, already $449 at Costco, should be much lower by the Holidays.

Up until now, Target had deliberately avoided carrying any stand-alone player. They said last year that they wanted to evaluate the situation first.

While not earthshaking, this is more important than people think. It is one of a series of events that are happening and validating the Blu-ray format.

Blockbuster, Denon, the flurry of indie distributors, now Target.

An avalanche is made up of small flakes of snow. Are we seeing an avalanche here?

Good points

I am guessing though on black friday, HD DVD players will be $199; BD will be $349. Again just a guess. Are consumers willing to pay $150 premium to get more exclusive content?That and to buy into the winning format. Most will want to be with the format that has the majority of the industry behind it, along with the majority of the marketshare.

So let me guess, those same hackers also rip BluRay movies with the Xbox 360 add-on as well?No, but they use the keys which were mostly extracted via HD DVD to decrypt the Blu-ray titles.
I'm not even going to bring up the fact that people are ripping BDs using the PS3 (wait, I just did!).Which is entirely different from using the PS3 to decrypt the title, which they're not. They're just using the PS3 as a [relatively] low-cost way to get the bits from optical to hard drive, a function which no protection tries to prevent.

Up until now, Target had deliberately avoided carrying any stand-alone player. They said last year that they wanted to evaluate the situation first.

Serious question. My local Target's DVD player section is always a mess and never has anything beyond the bottom line Philips, Sony, and Panasonic players, with a few economy brands. Is this different elsewhere? Based on the selection at the local Target, I'm surprised they're getting into this at all.

Now that I think about it, this is a very positive event for BD and a positive for HD media in general (not trying to spin as positive for HD DVD). If people see these players in stores like Target, the mainstream gets closer. Don't recall seeing LaserDisc players on endcaps in stores such as these.

Since inception it's roughly 60-40. And should stores stop selling Mac computers because Apple has only 5% of the market? Ridiculous as I stated.A ridiculous analogy. The Mac's future is not in question; having both formats available doesn't prevent anyone from buying either format. Having both Blu-ray and HD DVD clearly kept many consumers from buying either.
Finally, your comment about "greatly enlarging" is speculative and not workable as long as Blu players are priced at what they are.Blu-ray players are priced about where DVD players were priced at the same point in its availability, yet DVD obviously did very, very well. The only reason people claim BD players are unreasonably expensive is by comparison to Toshiba's unnaturally low pricing on HD DVD (relative to historical new format introductions). There are still many, many people willing to spend $500+ on a piece of A/V equipment if you remove the uncertainty brought on by a format war.

You wouldn't hear that from me...

But I totally agree with your post. This certainly isn't bad news for Blu, it's good for them! It's not the knock-out blow that was predicted by more than a few people.

A couple even went on to link the original rumor to a rumor that Best Buy was following suit and was also going "exclusively blu".

I would be truly shocked if Best Buy did anything like that - they have such longstanding ties to selling Toshiba product, I imagine that would be very bad for their relationship. In fact, I've always been somewhat surprised Best Buy didn't skew towards HD-DVD, but I guess they feel they can make more money carrying both.

I still think it would be good for Toshiba to try and get the A2 into Target for the holidays. I wonder if Target would go for that.

No, but they use the keys which were mostly extracted via HD DVD to decrypt the Blu-ray titles.
Which is entirely different from using the PS3 to decrypt the title, which they're not. They're just using the PS3 as a [relatively] low-cost way to get the bits from optical to hard drive, a function which no protection tries to prevent.


Both formats have their security vulnerabilities. In the end it boils down to is BD+ going to offer enough security to keep content providers happy? I don' t buy that it won't be broken for 10years, though.

Once it is broken though are all consumers going to pay the price in no more content. Besides FOX not doing BD currently, Universal also stopped HD DVD for a 2-to-3-month period when AACS title keys were hacked.

You can't blame content providers for not wanting HD quality product available at no cost in the wild.

Same article picked up by Forbes:

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/07/25/ap3952696.html

Houston Chronicle:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/fn/4999196.html

Wow, you provide evidence of your own misinformation.

HD DVD PQ: 4 stars
Blu-ray PQ: 4 stars

Brilliant.

If you look at the reviews, you'll see that Shooter had a higher rating on HD DVD on audio quality due to the higher bit rate audio track. Not sure if the reviewer actually heard a difference or looked at the specs (I'd imagine the latter).

The point to be made is that, in this case, the studio did not use the extra bandwidth to provide the audio quality they could have. Of course, that's not the fault of the format and its extra capacity.

LOL, well pretty anti-climactic... though at the same time along the lines of what was expected (by anyone that wasn't jacked up on hype).

Essentially, Target will promote Blu-ray going into the shopping season with prominent display space, and the S300 will be the only standalone sold in B&M up 'til the end of the year. It's certainly a plus for Blu-ray, but not really any strike against HD DVD per se.

Even more to the point, Target will be getting paid to have BD end caps in their stores and will be selling a player that is out of price range for most consumers.

Additionally Targets gets to deal with the headaches when in spring of '08 these players can't play all of the special features on later BD releases.

Bravo for Target.

This is hardly a "BD" exclusive as was being claimed, they will still be selling HD DVD discs.

Same article picked up by Forbes:

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/07/25/ap3952696.html

Houston Chronicle:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/fn/4999196.html

It is AP so I expect it to be covered pretty widely, lets just watch the headlines to see what the 'interpretation' will be like.

Even more to the point, Target will be getting paid to have BD end caps in their stores and will be selling a player that is out of price range for most consumers.

Additionally Targets gets to deal with the headaches when in spring of '08 these players can't play all of the special features on later BD releases.

Bravo for Target.

This is hardly a "BD" exclusive as was being claimed, they will still be selling HD DVD discs.

Your synopsis isn't wrong by any means, but I think it certainly gives it short thrift. First of all, if the player is still $499 come the holidays, well... I'll be surprised. But more importantly as far as the BDA is concerned (because yes I agree that Sony is paying for these endcaps), the benefit of this announcement is obviously not sales-related, but mindshare related. Whether the hundreds of thousands/millions of people that see these displays will look to purchase one or not is not the aim so much as the message that it reinforces in the general public of: "Blu-ray."

And in a sense, building desire is as important as actually making the sale at this early stage.

Yes, Target is not Blu-Ray exclusive as was originally posted. It's not even Hardware exclusive as Paidgeek said because Target still sells the 360 add-on.

The rumor did have something to do with Target though, I'll give it that! ;)

Wait--I thought the HD-DVD supporters said that only stand alone players count when comparing hardware. Is that not the case anymore? I've lost track of the current talking point regarding players from the HD DVD camp.

Target gets more of the middle-class shoppers than wal-mart so that player should sell very good. i work at wallyworld so i know that we get more of the lower class(fact) spending shoppers that wouldn't spend $500 on a player of any sorts.

It is AP so I expect it to be covered pretty widely, lets just watch the headlines to see what the 'interpretation' will be like.

Most outlets simply reprint the AP stories verbatim.

But I agree it will be interesting to see how it plays.

Up until now, Target had deliberately avoided carrying any stand-alone player. They said last year that they wanted to evaluate the situation first.

While not earthshaking, this is more important than people think. It is one of a series of events that are happening and validating the Blu-ray format.

Blockbuster, Denon, the flurry of indie distributors, now Target.

An avalanche is made up of small flakes of snow. Are we seeing an avalanche here?Well put. Of course, what we've seen in this thread is that some people don't believe the snow is even falling.

edit: Same as ap article

Seriously this post and the one after it don't sound like things I want as a consumer. I WANT commoditized models because they result in lower prices for me. I am completely and totally unconcered with whether or not the C/E manfuacturer makes 3% GM or 30% GM, as long as they make enough to stay in business and crank out the stuff I wanna' buy.This is very short-term thinking. A 3% margin doesn't recover the R&D and risk incurred if you don't have a couple of years of 30%+ margin at the start before it becomes commoditized. And that's exactly what Toshiba has done - cut off the first few years of a format where early adopter consumers are willing to pay more to have the latest technology. Yet the price drops haven't resulted in sales which justify the drop financially, given that success of the format is still tenuous at best. Your perspective has a very strong "you should like this because it's good for the companies that produce it slant", which makes abso-freakin-lutely no sense to me.You said yourself "as long as they stay in business and crank out the stuff I wanna' buy". Without a reasonable return on investment that ain't gonna happen - look at how it appears SED displays are DOA because the display market got commoditized before Toshiba and Canon could come to market, and now they're unwilling to take the risk that their product is enough better than the others to overcome the price disadvantage prior to reaching economies of scale. If you want to see significant new technologies continued to be "cranked out" you're going to have to live with a price curve which means you may not be willing to buy it for a year or two until the price settles more naturally (based on a consumer adoption curve) to the point you're willing to buy it.

Edit same as AP article

Forbes
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/07/25/ap3952696.html

Posted above.

I needed you to admit this so :

Shooter HD DVD (http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/shooter.html)

Shooter Blu-ray (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/shooter.html)

explain why Shooter has 20GB more data yet it doesn't score as highly as the HD DVD version?(As has already been stated) because they used a less advanced codec on the Blu-ray release which negates much of Blu-ray's capacity and bandwidth advantage? All it takes is one title authored under the same conditions to the best capabilities of each format to prove the advantages of Blu-ray's superior specs, and the September 11th release will probably do so (ignoring that the Nine Inch Nails release already benefited from Blu-ray's higher bandwidth by supporting alternate camera angles).

the cheapest blu ray player today is at the same price as Toshibas HD A1 when it hit the streets over a year ago, HD DVD will always be ahead of the curve with price. Value Electronics had a $199 sale on the A2 and sold 400 players in less than 36hours, when this price point is reached nationwide I feel thats when the tide will turn in favor of HD DVD. will Universal hold out? maybe, my 2 cents :D

Not sure it'll make a difference at Target at $499. It's a decision, but since they still committed to supporting software for both formats, I don't think it'll mean much.Though it logically follows that those who buy the player at Target will be more likely to buy BD titles there, which will lead to more shelf space relative to HD DVD.

I personally prefer the ostrich with the head in the sand. ;)

HD-DVD is looking more and more like DVHS everyday. Just one manufacturer, same amount of studios, and no new retailers stepping up to the plate to take a chance on it. Seriously has there been any retailer lately that has chosen to back HD-DVD moreso than Blu-ray like we have been seeing lately with the other way around? I mean is there even a sign that HD-DVD even has a chance? I'm not talking AVSForum stuff, I'm talking real world B&M and media presence, which HD-DVD seems to be doing extremely poorly. Heck even Leno and Limbaugh didn't even *mention* HD-DVD when talking about high def movies. It's like the only place HD-DVD even exists is on Internet forums and in the back corners at Best Buy.

the cheapest blu ray player today is at the same price as Toshibas HD A1 when it hit the streets over a year ago, HD DVD will always be ahead of the curve with price. Value Electronics had a $199 sale on the A2 and sold 400 players in less than 36hours, when this price point is reached nationwide I feel thats when the tide will turn in favor of HD DVD. will Universal hold out? maybe, my 2 cents :D

Like it was mentioned in the HD DVD debate at EMA, Value Electronics, is a speciality retailor that caters to the AVS and HomeTheaterForum users. It is not a shock that many were sold at that price.

Again, if the news was that Toshiba had an endcap in Target and Sony didn't, we be hearing about how good this is for HD-DVD. I'm not saying it's a huge event, because it's not, but it's also unrealistic to paint it as a non-event.Death by a thousand cuts for HD DVD. Every week there are impressions big (Blockbuster) and small (Leno) further establishing Blu-ray as the winning HD format in consumers' minds. Every one of these increases the likelihood of another retailer going exclusive, or a big HD DVD-exclusive studio going neutral, and it won't take too many more of the big events to, for all practical purposes, put an end to the format war. And the sooner that happens the better off all of us interested in high definition A/V will be.

HD-DVD is looking more and more like DVHS everyday. Just one manufacturer, same amount of studios, and no new retailers stepping up to the plate to take a chance on it. Seriously has there been any retailer lately that has chosen to back HD-DVD moreso than Blu-ray like we have been seeing lately with the other way around? I mean is there even a sign that HD-DVD even has a chance? I'm not talking AVSForum stuff, I'm talking real world B&M and media presence, which HD-DVD seems to be doing extremely poorly. Heck even Leno and Limbaugh didn't even *mention* HD-DVD when talking about high def movies. It's like the only place HD-DVD even exists is on Internet forums and in the back corners at Best Buy.


At Fridley, MN BB today I saw two returned A2s for sale and several new in box units. These things no matter what people here want to believe are NOT selling themselves or flying off the shelves. This applies to both formats.

Price alone is not going to win the war. It is going to be a combination of price of software/hardware and content availability.

Though it logically follows that those who buy the player at Target will be more likely to buy BD titles there, which will lead to more shelf space relative to HD DVD.

On same endcap as the player, if nothing else.... Last time I was at Target (last week), Sony already has a PS3 endcap with games and Blu-rays on it already. Maybe this one is replacing the PS3 one (which are usually only in their locked case thing).

Death by a thousand cuts for HD DVD. Every week there are impressions big (Blockbuster) and small (Leno) further establishing Blu-ray as the winning HD format in consumers' minds. Every one of these increases the likelihood of another retailer going exclusive, or a big HD DVD-exclusive studio going neutral, and it won't take too many more of the big events to, for all practical purposes, put an end to the format war. And the sooner that happens the better off all of us interested in high definition A/V will be.

Papercuts... very painful :D

Like it was mentioned in the HD DVD debate at EMA, Value Electronics, is a speciality retailor that caters to the AVS and HomeTheaterForum users. It is not a shock that many were sold at that price.

even so it does show people can be pushed over the fence by price, its a big factor

Both formats have their security vulnerabilities. In the end it boils down to is BD+ going to offer enough security to keep content providers happy? I don' t buy that it won't be broken for 10years, though.

Once it is broken though are all consumers going to pay the price in no more content.According to recently published reports a compromise of BD+ is likely to be far more contained than is a compromise of AACS. Nothing's unhackable, but I will be shocked if BD+ is compromised in a meaningful way within the next few years, and that's certainly enough time to give the studios incentive to continue giving their full support to Blu-ray.

A lot of people bought Pet Rock's in the 70's...they were cheap, too.

It gives ammunition for any sales person who wants to flog the more expensive BD player over the A2.

It takes heat off any other retail chain who wants to go this direction.

And did the article anywhere say 'same availability of software'? With this kind of a deal, it probably goes the BB way: yes they have both formats, but they carry a lot more BD than HD DVD.

Kind of like Costco.com: for a while had only HD DVD software and one HD DVD player; currently sell one BD and one HD DVD player and sell software of both formats in a ratio 85/26 in favor of BD; sell the PS3 but not the add-on.

edit: unless they cut the price on the add-on, it will soon be a non-factor. the A2 better pick up that slack.

It's probably time to change the thread title and remove *RUMOR* word.

Target stores to give boost to Blu-ray DVD format

Target Corp., the nation's second-largest retailer, will start selling a Sony Blu-ray high-definition DVD player during the critical holiday shopping period and feature the player along with DVDs in the format in store displays, dealing a potential blow to the rival HD DVD format.

The move, which the companies will formally announce Thursday, is another step in resolving a format war that has kept confused consumers from rushing to buy new DVD players until they can determine which format will dominate the market.

Target will sell the Sony BDP-S300 for $499 in October and display it along with Blu-ray DVDs from three studios, including Sony and The Walt Disney Co., at the ends of store aisles.

The Target announcement came five weeks after a decision by video rental chain Blockbuster Inc. to offer only Blu-ray titles when it expands its high-def offerings this fall.
http://www.timesdaily.com/article/20070725/APF/707250873

What is with the multiple postings of the same article? Guys - yes, we've seen it. Read the thread before you post!

I find it hilarious that the one who had a "fudagenda" was the right one here :D, (plazman)

the A2 better pick up that slack.

Given the current sales of the add-on, there isn't much slack to pick up.

even so it does show people can be pushed over the fence by price, its a big factor

agreed. but being a BD owner and supporter I just can't in good conscience buy into HD DVD and perpetuate the format war for one studio. Just like I am sure there are HD DVD buyers here who won't buy BD.

Again if by some miracle HD DVD wins and gets full content provider support I will buy a top-of-line 1080p24 HD DVD pronto, but I can't do it now for the reasons above.

The Target news is relatively minor and I don't see it as meaning much other than a little more positive PR in the media.

Aah... I actually *read* the article. Target is selling the cheap, no Ethernet port Sony player just in response to the fact that Wal-Mart is also selling that same player. They're not refusing to sell HD-DVD, etc. Toshiba just needs to pay for their own endcap. If they were kicking out the Xbox360 add-on that would be news.

the cheapest blu ray player today is at the same price as Toshibas HD A1 when it hit the streets over a year ago, HD DVD will always be ahead of the curve with price.The HD A1 was introduced at a money-losing price ($499) because it was already clear to Toshiba that the PS3 was going to end the war before it began. Prior to introduction all indications were that it would be released at the same $1000 which Blu-ray and virtually every other comparable new media format (DVD, CD, videotape) had been released at.

There remains little evidence that an HD DVD player actually costs less to build than a Blu-ray Disc player. BD has a slightly more expensive optical unit (likely offset by the far higher economies of scale driven by PS3 production), while HD DVD has a more expensive CPU. Otherwise there are few cost differentiators between the two formats. Any pricing discrepancy you see is based on sales tactics, not fundamental production costs.

If true, HDDVD is hosed in my opinion. I have a PS3 and HDDVD player, always wanted HDDVD to win, but it is what it is.

If not true, Penton Man's cred is hosed. He should never show his face again.

Penton Man deliver's yet again :)

According to recently published reports a compromise of BD+ is likely to be far more contained than is a compromise of AACS. Nothing's unhackable, but I will be shocked if BD+ is compromised in a meaningful way within the next few years, and that's certainly enough time to give the studios incentive to continue giving their full support to Blu-ray.

Gosh, if you look at the history of these encryption schemes, the viewpoint that BD+ will take "years" to hack is almost delusional. Pie in the Sky, as they say.

Target gets more of the middle-class shoppers than wal-mart so that player should sell very good. i work at wallyworld so i know that we get more of the lower class(fact) spending shoppers that wouldn't spend $500 on a player of any sorts.

I guess it comes down to what "selling well" means to you. Costco carried both the HD-D2 HD-DVD player at $249 and the S300 BD player at $449. I bet I can guess which has sold better.

Yeah I reported the OP a while ago and asked for a change, I'm sure they'll get around to it when they have time.

I think we are getting pretty close to this point:


http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7033/fat20lady20singsyi3.jpg (http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fat20lady20singsyi3.jpg)

maybe another 6-9 months as long as current trends continue and there will be only one format.

Pretty funny considering you or another brain trust member posted that same thing about four months ago.

The title is still wrong.

Target can't go Blu if they're still selling players and movies you Hydra Bots.

i sense frustration...

The title is still wrong.

Target can't go Blu if they're still selling players and movies you Hydra Bots.

Well the articles multiplying all over the internets right now say pretty clearly that Target has chosen a horse in this race:

Target to Promote Blu-ray
Retailer's decision follow similar move by video giant Blockbuster.
By Swanni

Washington, D.C. (July 25, 2007) -- Target, the second largest retailer in the U.S., has agreed to put its considerable marketing muscle behind Sony's Blu-ray player this holiday season.

While Target told AP that it's not endorsing one high-def disc format over another, the decision to promote the Blu-ray player over its rival HD DVD is another blow to HD DVD supporters.

Target's move follows an announcement last month that Blockbuster will carry only Blu-ray high-def discs in 1,450 stores. (The video retailer will continue to stock HD DVDs in 250 stores.)

Target, according to the AP, will begin selling a Sony Blu-ray player (BDP-S300) in October and promote Blu-ray discs in store displays. The move should give Blu-ray a large advantage over HD DVD during the holiday season.

The wire service says the Target decision will be announced by both the retailer and Sony on Thursday.

Target's decision will likely fuel sentiment that Blu-ray, which is backed by Sony, is the inevitable winner in the format war. Toshiba is the leading supporter of the HD DVD format.

Its just a flesh wound, right?

i sense frustration...

I'm sure you "see dead people" too :D

I'm not questioning your considerable powers of observation but rather pointing out the paradox of claiming a store has gone Blu when they will happily continue selling HD DVD players and movies.

I guess it comes down to what "selling well" means to you. Costco carried both the HD-D2 HD-DVD player at $249 and the S300 BD player at $449. I bet I can guess which has sold better.

Interestingly enough, they stopped selling the HD-D2 and switched to the A20. It sells at $369 versus $469 for the Sony. I am really not sure which one sells best. :cool:

Well, with Target selling a Blu-Ray player exclusively in-store as the only HDM stand alone will make a big statement the the average consumer that shops there.

J6P: "Why is this DVD player $499?"
Target Employee: "Oh, that's a Blu-Ray player. It's the new high definition DVDs."

I'm sure you "see dead people" too :D

I'm not questioning your considerable powers of observation but rather pointing out the paradox of claiming a store has gone Blu when they will happily continue selling HD DVD players and movies.

good point

Well, with Target selling a Blu-Ray player exclusively in-store as the only HDM stand alone will make a big statement the the average consumer that shops there.

J6P: "Why is this DVD player $499?"
Target Employee: "Oh, that's a Blu-Ray player. It's the new high definition DVDs."

Yup...then they'll walk straight over to a Costco, Wal-Mart, Best Buy or Circuit City and buy the $199 HD-X2 player. Brilliant marketing.

Just in the past four weeks you have the nation's largest rental B&M expanding only Blu-ray to 1700 stores nationwide, a $100 PS3 price drop resulting in a sales increase of 135%, seven indie studios going Blu-ray exclusive (Starz Home Entertainment/Anchor Bay, Tartan Film UK, FUNimation, BCI Home Entertainment, Entertainment in Video, Razor Digital and Questar), one of the most respected names in home theater, Denon, announcing two Blu-ray players with no firm HD-DVD plans in sight, and now the nation's 2nd largest retailer, Target, having an exclusive agreement to only sell Blu-ray players this holiday season. Couple that with a 2:1 sales lead and a studio and consumer electronics support discrepancy that shows no signs of dissappearing for this holiday season and I could see why no one outside of AVSForum is really talking about HD-DVD. It just doesn't really exist for most people.

Just in the past four weeks you have the nation's largest rental B&M expanding only Blu-ray to 1700 stores nationwide, a $100 PS3 price drop resulting in a sales increase of 135%, seven indie studios going Blu-ray exclusive (Starz Home Entertainment/Anchor Bay, Tartan Film UK, FUNimation, BCI Home Entertainment, Entertainment in Video, Razor Digital and Questar), one of the most respected names in home theater, Denon, announcing two Blu-ray players with no firm HD-DVD plans in sight, and now the nation's 2nd largest retailer, Target, having an exclusive agreement to only sell Blu-ray players this holiday season. Couple that with a 2:1 sales lead and a studio and consumer electronics support discrepancy that shows no signs of dissappearing for this holiday season and I could see why no one outside of AVSForum is really talking about HD-DVD. It just doesn't really exist for most people.


QFT.

BD has the highend, BD has the studio support, BD has the retailer support, BD has heavy presence in the CE stores, BD has the manufacturers, BD has the sales edge, BD has everything but..

Toshiba and Universal. That's it.

HD DVD is cooked.

Just in the past four weeks you have the nation's largest rental B&M expanding only Blu-ray to 1700 stores nationwide, a $100 PS3 price drop resulting in a sales increase of 135%, seven indie studios going Blu-ray exclusive (Starz Home Entertainment/Anchor Bay, Tartan Film UK, FUNimation, BCI Home Entertainment, Entertainment in Video, Razor Digital and Questar), one of the most respected names in home theater, Denon, announcing two Blu-ray players with no firm HD-DVD plans in sight, and now the nation's 2nd largest retailer, Target, having an exclusive agreement to only sell Blu-ray players this holiday season. Couple that with a 2:1 sales lead and a studio and consumer electronics support discrepancy that shows no signs of dissappearing for this holiday season and I could see why no one outside of AVSForum is really talking about HD-DVD. It just doesn't really exist for most people.

Wow excellent summation of recent events. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Yeah HD-DVD is much stronger at AVS than really anywhere else due to the heavy HD-DVD insider presence that set up shop here some time ago. But it looks like even here the tide is turning.

rather pointing out the paradox of claiming a store has gone Blu when they will happily continue selling HD DVD players and movies.

No one will go 'exclusive' for fear of alienating the HD DVD die-hards. But selling one HD DVD title is sufficient to be non-exclusive ...

Well, at least the rumor was true. I'm a supporter of HD-DVD, but it would have been such a waste to sit through 10+ pages of bickering to find out the story was bogus. I'd say its a blow to HD-DVD, but not nearly as much as BB (considering Target is still stocking discs and the add-on). Still, not the kinda news I was looking to hear.

Target would not say why it decided to sell only Blu-ray players. Sony is paying a fee...Well at least they're not pulling any punches on this one. Toshiba and Microsoft better put their money together and buy something, anything at this point. It just looks really bad when you have announcements like this without a proper rebuttal. I thought this was a war?

So they're still selling the media?

Oh well, can't have everything.

Target will sell the Sony BDP-S300 for $499 in October and display it along with Blu-ray DVDs from three studios, including Sony and The Walt Disney Co., at the ends of store aisles.

http://www.timesdaily.com/article/20070725/APF/707250873

So now the mass adoption price range is $499? The masses do shop at Target.

So how well did Wal-Mart do selling that RCA rebadge of the A1? I believe it was in this price range wasn't it?

err.


Swanni says that Target even told AP that it has not chosen sides. We aer not even talking about sofware support in his prediction, only hardware support for a Blu-ray player. Thats probably because Sony will be paying for placement and POS materials.

Big Deal. Price will still be a determining factor.

Check out Tvpredictions past predictions of the format war. All Blu. And all overtly optimistic.

Same old same old.

Wow excellent summation of recent events. Couldn't have said it better myself.



Truer words haven't been spoken.

Again I fail to see how this affects consumers. The Sunday paper comes..consumers pull out the adds and they see everyone selling the HD DVD players for $199 later this year. They then hop into the care and go to Target and see them trying to foise a $399 Blu-ray player on them. They view the HD DVD movies sitting so invitingly on the shelf.

Meh...Target loses the sale.

err.


Swanni says that Target even told AP that it has not chosen sides. We aer not even talking about sofware support in his prediction, only hardware support for a Blu-ray player. Thats probably because Sony will be paying for placement and POS materials.

Big Deal. Price will still be a determining factor.

Check out Tvpredictions past predictions of the format war. All Blu. And all overtly optimistic.

Same old same old.

Target would not say why it decided to sell only Blu-ray players. Sony is paying a fee to have their products featured in the end-of-aisle display, called an endcap, although Sony executives said the retailer contacted them about the decision.

"We are not proclaiming one format vs. the other as the preferred consumer technology, and software will continue to be available to our guests in both the Blu-ray and HD-DVD format," Target spokeswoman Brie Heath said.

From link above

err.


Swanni says that Target even told AP that it has not chosen sides. We aer not even talking about sofware support in his prediction, only hardware support for a Blu-ray player. Thats probably because Sony will be paying for placement and POS materials.

Big Deal. Price will still be a determining factor.

Check out Tvpredictions past predictions of the format war. All Blu. And all overtly optimistic.

Same old same old.


Mind Share. It keeps growing for BD. All I hear is cheap players from HD DVD...

Being behind, no matter how small the total sales are, start building trend. I don't know if you guys have been too coated in your maroon colored blindfolds lately, but HD DVD is getting its ass handed to it in the press this week.

How much longer do you really think this can go on before someone cries "uncle"..
I don't think it can go on much longer. If Fox does what they are claiming over @ the Bits and starts releasing in droves, you can kiss the HD-DVD coalition goodbye.

The BDA is setting the table for Q4.

Great news, hddvd is dying fast.

Target would not say why it decided to sell only Blu-ray players. Sony is paying a fee to have their products featured in the end-of-aisle display, called an endcap, although Sony executives said the retailer contacted them about the decision.

"We are not proclaiming one format vs. the other as the preferred consumer technology, and software will continue to be available to our guests in both the Blu-ray and HD-DVD format," Target spokeswoman Brie Heath said.

Target will track customer feedback and adjust offerings as necessary, Heath said.

The HD DVD camp was not fazed by the Target decision, pointing out that HD DVD players continue to outsell Blu-ray players, which are at least twice the cost. They also point out that HD DVD players and DVDs are featured in endcap displays in Circuit City and Best Buy stores.

HD DVD promoters also contend that consumers are more influenced by price than product selection.

"HD DVD players are the most affordable," said Ken Graffeo, co-president of the North American HD DVD Promotional Group. "It's one thing to have a player featured, but it's another if it doesn't sell." :D :D

At Fridley, MN BB today I saw two returned A2s for sale and several new in box units. These things no matter what people here want to believe are NOT selling themselves or flying off the shelves. This applies to both formats.

Price alone is not going to win the war. It is going to be a combination of price of software/hardware and content availability.

Do you mean the Blaine BB? I don't think there is a Fridley Best Buy...

I used to work at the Blaine one for 5 years a LOOOONG time ago. Next time I'm in the area I'll stop in and take a look around.

Death by a thousand cuts for HD DVD. Every week there are impressions big (Blockbuster) and small (Leno) further establishing Blu-ray as the winning HD format in consumers' minds. Every one of these increases the likelihood of another retailer going exclusive, or a big HD DVD-exclusive studio going neutral, and it won't take too many more of the big events to, for all practical purposes, put an end to the format war. And the sooner that happens the better off all of us interested in high definition A/V will be.
With this news, I think it's likely the snowball has begun to roll.

(Waiting for HD DVD fans to employ "Chance in Hell" rhetoric)

I didn't read through the whole monster thread, but the Walmart rumors have me pretty curious.

Pretty much says it all doesn't it Kosty?

Sony is a payer. Like Mel Gibson's character in Ransom. Target will take the advertising money and make happy and then in 2008 after a stellar Holiday shopping season for HD DVD Target will be back in stride with affordable HD players.

:D :D


It's just like taxes dude... once they are implemented, they are never rolled back. Target picked their side and did it without really pissing anyone off.

HD DVD has one chance to change the game, it's this holiday.

I don't see how they will do it, but, it's the only prayer they have to even stay afloat in 08.

Truly, I believe they are going to get slaughtered.

Blu-ray's news is bought and paid for.

Consumers know this. What's going to matter is content and players that are priced affordably. You can't stop the signal baby.

The Sunday paper comes..consumers pull out the adds and they see everyone selling HD DVD players for $299 from only one company later this year. They then hop into the care and go to Target and see them selling a Blu-ray player for $50 more. They view the HD DVD movies sitting so invitingly on the shelf, but see that most of them are also on Blu-ray. They then find out they can't get any of the big movies from this year or any year from Sony, Disney, Lionsgate, or Fox. No "Spider-man", no "Pirates", but maybe a lone copy of "Knocked Up".

Meh...HD DVD loses the sale.Fixed that for you.

funny that the lake between HD DVD and Blu ray continues to narrow

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/


Overall HD DVD hardware sales were up 37% from Q1 to Q2 2007, while software sales experienced a 20% increase in growth. During the same timeframe, overall Blu-ray standalone players’ sales saw a 27% decline from Q1 to Q2, and Blu-ray software sales were down 5%.


http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20070720154437.html


seems the more i hear about Blu winning the more its just not true

Target would not say why it decided to sell only Blu-ray players in stores. Sony is paying a fee...Any care for honest journalism? :p

Unaltered:

Target would not say why it decided to sell only Blu-ray players in stores. Sony is paying a fee to have its products featured in the end-of-aisle display, called an endcap, although Sony executives said the retailer contacted them about the decision.

Classic mentality from Blufans.....anything to say its over TODAY, such fear of HD-DVD and what it has planned, LMAO...it MUST end NOW, "please ref, stop the fight, can't you tell how confident we are, no need to keep fighting, they don't have anything planned, c'mon, stop it NOW!"

Blu-ray's news is bought and paid for. Yeah, it's not as if someone who actually sold Toshiba products would ever post on this board and in this thread constantly attacking Blu-ray. That never happens.

Yeah, it's not as if someone who actually sold Toshiba products would ever post on this board and in this thread constantly attacking Blu-ray. That never happens.

I haven't posted in the Blu-ray forums in weeks. At least I'm civil enough to fight on the right battle field.

I am Leonidas to your Xerxes....see you at Thermopylae

Wow, threats. Last refuge of the desperate.

Time to move on.

Truer words haven't been spoken.

Again I fail to see how this affects consumers. The Sunday paper comes..consumers pull out the adds and they see everyone selling the HD DVD players for $199 later this year. They then hop into the care and go to Target and see them trying to foise a $399 Blu-ray player on them. They view the HD DVD movies sitting so invitingly on the shelf.

Meh...Target loses the sale.

You have really simplified the person in the market for a high def player down to an almost idiotic level. A person who does what you just described is so stupid they probably would not even know what HD-DVD or Blu-ray even means to begin with so they are not worth using as an example.

I realize the only thing you are capable of on here is arguing for HD-DVD, but let's try and be a little more realistic. I'm sure someone in the market for a high def player would look at what movies are available and what manufacturers they have to choose from at the very minimum while they are in the process of shopping during that Sunday afternoon. I rather doubt they look at a Toshiba player that says HD-DVD, then go to Target and see something else called Blu-ray for a higher price, and then put two and two together that even though they are different prices and named totally differently, they are the same thing so they'll just choose the cheaper option.

Most people I know go with the brand they like, and the software they like, when they are buying just about anything. Computers, movie players, video game consoles, you name it. They look at the brand, they look at what they are going to use it for. Very few people I know do not care about the brand that they buy and just go for the cheapest option, everything be damned. When they walk into Best Buy and see six different manufacturers making Blu-ray players, a much larger endcap presence, and they browse through the software section and don't see a single recent blockbuster from last summer in one of the format's section, I doubt it will strike them that that sole Toshiba player in the back happens to be the exact same thing.

Now if you are talking about idiot grandma's who just want to watch movies, let's talk in a couple years when these things become mainstream. But I don't care what price Toshiba is going to sell their players at, you don't become mainstream with one CE company and 3 studios none of which are the only studio J6P knows for and asks for by name, and that is Disney. There are a lot of cheap products that have failed miserably. I really really disagree with the HD-DVD talking point that if you get the price of entry low enough, suddenly HD-DVD will take off. There are a lot of cheap things in life that I choose not to buy because they look like and smell like losers, and when you have a format selection with 3 studios, very little advertising relatively speaking, absolutely no presence at the local rental store, and only one brand pushing players at you, I'm sorry, but to most people that looks and smells like a loser. I don't care what the price is, you won't be able to give these things away when the option is spend an extra hundred or two hundred bucks and get the movie format that has seven times more brands of players, which also happens to be the same movie format that you see and hear everywhere including your local Blockbuster.

Yeah, it's not as if someone who actually sold Toshiba products would ever post on this board and in this thread constantly attacking Blu-ray. That never happens.

Oh yeah I forgot hmurch works for and shills for Toshiba! I guess the joke is on me for arguing with him. He should at least disclose that in his sig. Isn't that forum rules?

I haven't posted in the Blu-ray forums in weeks. At least I'm civil enough to fight on the right battle field.

I am Leonidas to your Xerxes....see you at Thermopylae

LOL, and we know what happened to Leo :D

I'm sure you "see dead people" too :D

I'm not questioning your considerable powers of observation but rather pointing out the paradox of claiming a store has gone Blu when they will happily continue selling HD DVD players and movies.

nah, me no see dead people here but a dead format nonetheless.

hypothetically, 100bd titles versus 20hd dvd titles, i guess you will go online now to buy hd dvd's? there are alot of consumers not technically savvy as you. so their only outlet is your local b&m store which includes target. you also fail to see that target is family friendly environment where people actually go and buy your everyday necessities. you know - tissue paper, white towels, tampons, and toys. electronics usually take the back seat there but once people start noticing the endcaps and displays. this will peak consumer curiousity and entice them into buying a next gen format. remember the first time you saw hd in a large screen? i bet that was hd dvd display at an electronics store. well, fast forward a year later where there are two formats. toshiba dropped the ball. blame them for how you feel right now. bd is just a competitor...

Oh yes because your 10 movie advantage is such a benefit of having 3 more studios. Hey I'm going to be enjoying Harry Potter, Blade Runner, 300 (a blockbuster than you seem to ignore), Knocked Up and other fine movies on my HD DVD player.

Consumers will relish the extra ducats in their pocket because they were smart not to pay the Blu-ray tax.

Xbox will fly off the shelves as Halo 3 grabs us by the short and curlies. Don't worry...we will give your thoughts of domination a beautiful death.

Sony, IMO, is starting to turn the screws on HD DVD big time. Perception is everything and the HD DVD guys just don't seem to get this concept. Either they release a big title as an HD DVD combo (no DVD release) and sell what a big release sells (10,000,000 copies) and skew the sales figures to 20:1 in HD DVD's favour or just sit around and "stay the course" and watch HD DVD get squeezed out of the market. This is getting kind of interesting. Sony is going for the throat so will HD DVD unlease its WMD?

Cheers,

Grant

Sony, IMO, is starting to turn the screws on HD DVD big time. Perception is everything and the HD DVD guys just don't seem to get this concept. Either they release a big title as an HD DVD combo (no DVD release) and sell what a big release sells (10,000,000 copies) and skew the sales figures to 20:1 in HD DVD's favour or just sit around and "stay the course" and watch HD DVD get squeezed out of the market. This is getting kind of interesting. Sony is going for the throat so will HD DVD unlease its WMD?

Cheers,

Grant

I don't think they have any more cards to play really. They've already dropped the price on the players significantly... They might pull one more price cut to 199 on the A2, but I don't know what else they have..

We know for sure it's not going to be a major studio changing sides... We also know that all of a sudden, all of these "small" studios are starting to put out press releases in favor of BD.

Honestly, I don't know what other major thing they could pull out of the hat. Universal is cranking catalog titles to try to keep up with BD releases, but that's all I see happening right now.

I am Leonidas to your Xerxes....see you at ThermopylaeSo you're racist, xenophobic, have a Hitler-esque purity complex, like to sleep with unconsenting underage boys, and I'm going to defeat you? Okay, you said it, not me.

nah, me no see dead people here but a dead format nonetheless.

hypothetically, 100bd titles versus 20hd dvd titles, i guess you will go online now to buy hd dvd's? there are alot of consumers not technically savvy as you. so their only outlet is your local b&m store which includes target. you also fail to see that target is family friendly environment where people actually go and buy your everyday necessities. you know - tissue paper, white towels, tampons, and toys. electronics usually take the back seat there but once people start noticing the endcaps and displays. this will peak consumer curiousity and entice them into buying a next gen format. remember the first time you saw hd in a large screen? i bet that was hd dvd display at an electronics store. well, fast forward a year later where there are two formats. toshiba dropped the ball. blame them for how you feel right now. bd is just a competitor...

Well hell if you're going to speak hypothetically why not state 1 trillion bd titles to 1 hd dvd title. It's your world and only you cheezycheddar can determine the level and scope of your fantasy. I feel quite well thank you.

Xbox will fly off the shelves as Halo 3 grabs us by the short and curlies. Don't worry...we will give your thoughts of domination a beautiful death.

What does a Xbox 360 sale (with no hd-dvd drive attached to it) and sales of Halo 3 (a game where people will be addicted enough to ignore any movie coming out) have to do with High Def movie sales? Or is your point that as long as Xbox does ok, your paychecks still arrive?

So you're racist, xenophobic, have a Hitler-esque purity complex, like to sleep with unconsenting underage boys, and I'm going to defeat you? Okay, you said it, not me.

Sparta catagorically rejects the notion that we are xenophobic. We just want your land and our freedom from Persian DRM. Aye though your army is strong there is dissension within the ranks and more defections will come. Our Army is proven to be more effective to a man. We are not farmers tilling the field one day only to be thrust into battle the next. We are warriors full time with only the though of completing on unified task with the utmost in fidelity and ease. Fear us.

QFT.

BD has the highend, BD has the studio support, BD has the retailer support, BD has heavy presence in the CE stores, BD has the manufacturers, BD has the sales edge, BD has everything but..

Toshiba and Universal. That's it.

HD DVD is cooked.

Does BR have price advantage?
Does BR have fully capable players?
Whens the last time you bought a Fox title?
Whens the last time you bought a descent Disney title?

Both sides still have their problems and making blanket statements doesn't change that fact.

No one but geeks are buying either format right now. This holiday season will tell the tale. After January lets see what actually happens.

So, to bolster your point, you quote an unhinged comic book author who loves to inflict violence on women in his art, in addition to feeling that civil liberties mean nothing?

Well hell if you're going to speak hypothetically why not state 1 trillion bd titles to 1 hd dvd title. It's your world and only you cheezycheddar can determine the level and scope of your fantasy. I feel quite well thank you.

yes, you are in your own little world - hd dvd world that is. we welcome you in open arms because we are all a/v enthusiasts. it's ok to be in denial and make up excuses. but tell us what hd-dvd has currently going for them? universal? microsoft?

Either they release a big title as an HD DVD combo (no DVD release) and sell what a big release sells (10,000,000 copies) and skew the sales figures to 20:1 in HD DVD's favour...

There you go. They do have that card to play, and if they really want to get mainstream buy-in, that would be their best bet. Currently, they're brilliantly using the combo to place an even higher premium on HD content.

What does a Xbox 360 sale (with no hd-dvd drive attached to it) and sales of Halo 3 (a game where people will be addicted enough to ignore any movie coming out) have to do with High Def movie sales? Or is your point that as long as Xbox does ok, your paychecks still arrive?

he's got some issues. it just popped out of nowhere. i dunno if he knows what he's trying to point out anymore..

So, to bolster your point, you quote an unhinged comic book author who loves to inflict violence on women in his art, in addition to feeling that civil liberties mean nothing?

Come on man..don't go Emo on me. I've read enough History to know about the real Sparta. Let's keep this light hearted.

We know for sure it's not going to be a major studio changing sides... We also know that all of a sudden, all of these "small" studios are starting to put out press releases in favor of BD.

It's almost unfair to expect the general public to buy either of these formats without full studio support. The average buyer will have NO IDEA that some releases will not be available. This is true for HD and BD. Now, BD has a shorter road to get all studios, but that is needed for widespread satisfaction.

Oh yes because your 10 movie advantage is such a benefit of having 3 more studios. Hey I'm going to be enjoying Harry Potter, Blade Runner, 300 (a blockbuster than you seem to ignore), Knocked Up and other fine movies on my HD DVD player.

I don't get this statement. Aren't all of those movies except for Knocked Up available on or going to be available on Blu-ray too? What's the point of naming some cool movies you will be watching. Good for you I guess. I don't see it as a talking point though because it's not prudent to degenerate an argument to listing off movies you and I like as if that proves anything.


Consumers will relish the extra ducats in their pocket because they were smart not to pay the Blu-ray tax.


Like I said earlier, people pay extra for things all the time. I don't know many people that buy the cheapest of any product they can find, at all cost. There is a far greater chance someone will want a Sony, Pioneer, Philips, Panasonic, or Samsung DVD player than they will want a Toshiba, especially when the Toshiba looks like it is going at it all alone. Now I know you work for them, but I got news for you, most people don't really think much of Toshiba as a brand. Toshiba's prices are usually cheaper to begin with. Couple that with a branding and attitude that they are going at it all alone and without many of the major studios or consumer electronics companies and there is a REASON it is cheaper, or at the very least that is what most people will think. People don't see something cheap and automatically think "Must buy! Great deal!" Instead they at the very least go through a thought process of "Is this a Kia or a Honda I'm looking at here?"


Xbox will fly off the shelves as Halo 3 grabs us by the short and curlies. Don't worry...we will give your thoughts of domination a beautiful death.

Huh? Have you read lately on its falling sales and huge notoriety that has been spreading lately due to its 30%+ failure rate? What does the Xbox have to do with anything anyways? Oh you are not still thinking the optional video game add-on will have some impact do you?

BTW have you EVER conceeded a positive point for Blu-ray in your entire life. Not "I will buy it one day if it wins" but actually conceeding that Blockbuster, Target, Denon, studio support, PS3, CE support, etc., at least MIGHT mean something to the average Joe. As in, I hear about Blu-ray, but not HD-DVD. That seems to be the ticket lately. You can't win a format war if you aren't even on people's radar, and I'm sorry but HD-DVD is not even showing up to the party. My roommates whom I never talk to have never even heard of it for instance, but they both know about Blu-ray. I think your problem hmurch is, besides working for Toshiba and having an extreme bias, with your post count here and on other forums I see you on, I think you spend most of your time online discussing these things and not actually at places people get their movies at like Blockbuster and Best Buy to see what is literally total domination by Blu-ray at the moment.

But I have to hand it to you, you are one of the last of the HD-DVD faithful arguing everyday on here. Heck I don't even see rdjam anymore....

...

But somehow he often omits how HD-DVD is doing much worse than BR... :rolleyes:
HDDVD is meeting or exceeding goals.
BD is missing them.
The sheer weight of BD may break the back of HDDVD at some point, but today the companies involved with HDDVD are happy with it's performance.

...

BTW have you EVER conceeded a positive point for Blu-ray in your entire life. Not "I will buy it one day if it wins" but actually conceeding that Blockbuster, Target, Denon, studio support, PS3, CE support, etc., at least MIGHT mean something to the average Joe. As in, I hear about Blu-ray, but not HD-DVD. That seems to be the ticket lately. You can't win a format war if you aren't even on people's radar, and I'm sorry but HD-DVD is not even showing up to the party. My roommates whom I never talk to have never even heard of it for instance, but they both know about Blu-ray.


I concede all the time. Blu-ray "does" have larger discs and a bit more bandwidth. It does have a studio advantage and CE vendor advantage. It "is" the logical choice for a person that wants one player to cover the most content.

The question really is, long term what format is the best? I think HD DVD is that format. The players are fully featured today. The interactivity is more featured and stable. The price is right. You cannot make a silk purse from a sows ear. The current Blu-ray players are half baked and too expensive. Other than that I love'em.

Oh yeah I forgot hmurch works for and shills for Toshiba! I guess the joke is on me for arguing with him. He should at least disclose that in his sig. Isn't that forum rules?
I had forgotten this too. If this is, indeed true, it is very wrong for him not to disclose it.

I think it is great to see one of the format's dying so quickly. If it were Blu-ray I would be equally ecstatic because the reason I even support Blu-ray in the first place is because I believe it can kill off its competitor very quickly and lead an end to the format war, which is the ultimate result that I think most people in this forum want now---one format, in high def, with all the studios and manufacturers to choose from, so we can really start buying in.

If you are confident in your choice then you need not worry about what your neighbor does. I buy HD DVD with confidence that my movies will play find for as long as I take care of them. It's a liberating feeling. My goal certainly isn't to "kill off" a format but rather enjoy beautiful HD content. I don't do the studios bidding...they do mine.

HDDVD is meeting or exceeding goals.
BD is missing them.
The sheer weight of BD may break the back of HDDVD at some point, but today the companies involved with HDDVD are happy with it's performance.
Welcome back to 2006! :D

HDDVD is meeting or exceeding goals.Yeah, they're meeting those goals so well, they had to cut their hardware estimates by 40+%. And they're so impressive, that they're losing exclusive studios and at least one CE manufacturer.
BD is missing them.Yep. They're doing so bad at it that they've signed up a major manufacturer, 5 exclusive software companies, convinced one of the largest retailers to only support them in the store, and have one of the largest home video rental companies stocking only their format in over a thousand of their stores.
The sheer weight of BD may break the back of HDDVD at some pointI'm sure BD is just creaking under the sheer weight of higher profit margins, more studios, more products, and more market share.
today the companies involved with HDDVD are happy with it's performance.So happy they're jumping ship or just plain avoiding them!

So you're racist, xenophobic, have a Hitler-esque purity complex, like to sleep with unconsenting underage boys, and I'm going to defeat you? Okay, you said it, not me.
I like this from his public profile...

Birthday:
March 21, 1971
Your HT Gear:
Onkyo DVD and AVR
Your HT Gear (more space):
Xbox 360 coming soon

Biography:
I am a God.

Location:
Seattle
Interests:
Computers, Audio, Music Production
Occupation:
Storage

I like this from his public profile...

Birthday:
March 21, 1971
Your HT Gear:
Onkyo DVD and AVR
Your HT Gear (more space):
Xbox 360 coming soon

Biography:
I am a God.

Location:
Seattle
Interests:
Computers, Audio, Music Production
Occupation:
Storage

O.o

HDDVD is meeting or exceeding goals.
BD is missing them.
The sheer weight of BD may break the back of HDDVD at some point, but today the companies involved with HDDVD are happy with it's performance.

Frankly I expected a better attempt from you. At least try to spin something and make it entertaining. The blatant lie approach already happened a few times earlier today from other HD DVD extremists, get a new act please.

HDDVD is meeting or exceeding goals.
BD is missing them.
The sheer weight of BD may break the back of HDDVD at some point, but today the companies involved with HDDVD are happy with it's performance.

all companies fudge numbers. don't ever believe them as there are alot of hidden costs and write-offs that people don't ever see. welcome to the corporate world.

but tell us what hd-dvd has currently going for them? universal? microsoft?

I personally would rather have Microsoft in my corner, way more than Sony.

It's almost unfair to expect the general public to buy either of these formats without full studio support. The average buyer will have NO IDEA that some releases will not be available. This is true for HD and BD. Now, BD has a shorter road to get all studios, but that is needed for widespread satisfaction.

If you buy it (weather it's HD or BD) they (studios) will come. That includes everyone.

Not "I will buy it one day if it wins" but actually conceeding that Blockbuster, Target, Denon, studio support, PS3, CE support, etc., at least MIGHT mean something to the average Joe.

It actually doesn't mean anything to ME at the present. I havr a ton of DVD's and the upconversion looks GREAT on my HD-DVD. Plus I have also started buying a nice selection of HD DVD's.

I

The question really is, long term what format is the best? I think HD DVD is that format. The players are fully featured today. The interactivity is more featured and stable. The price is right. You cannot make a silk purse from a sows ear. The current Blu-ray players are half baked and too expensive. Other than that I love'em.

All those reasons sound like the here and now to me, not the long term.

Long term it appears BD players will be more fully featured as the PIP of profile 1.1 is high def and not standard def. BD-J is also capable of more than HDi. Interactivity is really not something to win a format war on though, but if you are discussing purely the long term, BD has more capability in this aspect, you will just have to be patient like many things in life and wait for it. Since you are bringing up "long term" then "patience" goes part and parcel with it.

Long term pricing shouldn't mean a hill of beans. Last year the price difference in retail was $500. A year later it is $300. Who's to say that next year it will be $100, and the year after there won't even be a price difference. Such is the inevitability of consumer electronics.

All of your arguments are about current issues, none of those things have to do with long term at all.

I agree with you on your principle though, I just disagree with you that this is all worth having a philosophy over which you seem to have. I think it is a GOOD THING that a lot of companies are aligned specifically to promote, market, and make product for a new high def format. You I have the sense think this is "unfair" but in reality there probably shouldn't even be two formats to begin with--it's not like a big deal in life to be able to choose the manufacturer of your movie disc, it is a bigger deal IMO to have everything compatible to make our busy lives easier, and a complete alliance accomplishes that and Blu-ray is much closer to that ideal. I believe the only reason HD-DVD players are cheaper is because when you are talking about HD-DVD players you really are only talking about Toshiba players anyways. There really isn't an HD-DVD player market. There are Toshiba players that play their format. If there were an HD-DVD player market you can bet it would look very much like Blu-ray.

HDDVD is meeting or exceeding goals.


Does that refer to the 1.8 million players by year end? Or to the $600 million software sales in North America for 2007? (These were the goals mentioned at CES, apart from the 300 additional releases in 2007.)

Someone needs to wake up the HD DVD group and tell them there is actually a format war going on!

I support HD DVD but its patently obvious the HD DVD group really needs to start making some headway with studios, CE makers AND retailers or they better just shut up shop and go home. Basing their strategy on hitting a magical price point wont work if everyone else has bought a BR player now, will it? At least go out with a fight, for pete's sake!

I may never buy BR but they are at least going for the win, I wonder if Bestbuy or Walmart will be next.

HDDVD is meeting or exceeding goals.
This is one for the ages. Can we frame this? :D

The problem with HD DVD and their $199 players is that they have been locked out of every B&M so even if the Joe 6 Pack wanted to spend less on a HD format, he won't even know HD DVD exists. HD DVD is virtually invisible at Best Buy, Target quarantined then to 250 stores and now Target may avoid them as well. In fact, if Toshiba keeps this fire sale pricing going, even Walmart's possible Trojan Horse of cheap chinese HD DVD players may turn into the more profitable and expensive cheap Blu Ray players.....HD DVD seems to be having an identity crisis that low, low prices won't fix. Heck, no one wants to manufacturer a player but Toshiba... I don't know how many flesh wounds (e.g. Target) HD DVD can take before it collapses.

People don't see something cheap and automatically think "Must buy! Great deal!" Instead they at the very least go through a thought process of "Is this a Kia or a Honda I'm looking at here?"

Quoted for truth. Which one of these 2 players would the consumer go for, even with a noticable price difference?
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b360/ResOGlas/_Master_Artwork_Product_Images_MP3p.jpg




Brand marketing is very important, much more than price.

If you are a "gamer" then I could see where BLU-Ray would be the way to go. I however, am not. So, for ME, and any "non" gamer HD-DVD just makes more sense. Blu-Ray just cost more cents. A lot more.

on topic


I was just at the local Target, and, WOW!!! 18 selections of each format. I pondered over which one to buy for well over 30 seconds and then moved on. If Target goes all Blu, does that mean they will have 36 selections?? Again, BIG DEAL! I wouldn't be excited if there were 36 selections of HD DVD's either

Look on the bright side for CONSUMERS, because of the "other format" the one that wins has the "other format to thank for cheaper prices, faster.

With consumers in mind I'm pulling for HD-DVD!!

Ron

I don't think they have any more cards to play really. They've already dropped the price on the players significantly... They might pull one more price cut to 199 on the A2, but I don't know what else they have..

We know for sure it's not going to be a major studio changing sides... We also know that all of a sudden, all of these "small" studios are starting to put out press releases in favor of BD.

Honestly, I don't know what other major thing they could pull out of the hat. Universal is cranking catalog titles to try to keep up with BD releases, but that's all I see happening right now.

The Wal-Mart HD A2W

Blu-ray's news is bought and paid for.

Consumers know this. What's going to matter is content and players that are priced affordably. You can't stop the signal baby.

QFT! :)

All those reasons sound like the here and now to me, not the long term.

All of your arguments are about current issues, none of those things have to do with long term at all.

There really isn't an HD-DVD player market. There are Toshiba players that play their format. If there were an HD-DVD player market you can bet it would look very much like Blu-ray.

"will be" how long do you expect people to wait for capable players mate?

BD-Java is supposedly better yet it's still behind HD DVD and BD-Live isn't even functional.

The pricing is remaining fairly consistent with the lowest end HD DVD player being roughly half the cost of the Blu-ray player equivalent. Yet the HD DVD player still has more features.

No player market? That's news to a half million owners happily buying and watching movies. Blu-ray's market looks like a train wreck. Sony's writing more checkous out than they have coming in. They've had how many media sales to revive the sinking sales .....CLEAR!

It's not a format that I want to back as my primary. Most advantages of Blu-ray yield little real world differences. The format would be Betamax'd if Sony hadn't purchased the loyalty of many companies.

thebland et al.:

My view of the "low price" strategy is a bit different.

If you are in an established commodity market, then having the low price can be the ticket.

However, if you are in a format war, then having the low price isn't necessarily that much of a help. People will properly ask: "Sure, it's the cheaper, but is it going to win?"

People have had a lot of experience with AV formats now and they know that the initial cost is nothing compared to the on-going costs of buying media and the costs of buying additional and replacement players. Remember also that we are no where nearly ready for the mythical "J6P", we are still stuck at the middle adopter stage for both formats.

The current MSRP's--$299 vs. $499--are not that far apart for a format. The $200 difference is about 8 disks. People can easily spend $500 a year on media.

I am guessing that HD DVD will hit their $199 MSRP this winter (or less). Blu-ray will also fall, probably not as much. It won't matter that much yet.

After the format war is over and we are looking at broader adoption, yes, then the price will matter a lot.

It's not a format that I want to back as my primary. Most advantages of Blu-ray yield little real world differences. The format would be Betamax'd if Sony hadn't purchased the loyalty of many companies.

I object to this kind of reference to Sony (or any other company for that matter).

You might ask yourself what the relationships between Toshiba/Microsoft are to some of their companies. I suspect you will find the same sorts of business practices.

Quoted for truth. Which one of these 2 players would the consumer go for, even with a noticable price difference?
http://www.iomagic.com/Products/..%5CMaster_Artwork%5CProduct_Images%5CMP3players%5Cneoplaye r.jpg
http://brilliantdays.com/images/articlepics/ipod.jpg




Brand marketing is very important, much more than price.


I'm going for the one I can't see, but then, I like to live dangerously!!

BUT, I do agree with your point, somewhat. I would buy a Sony over say a GoldStar product, but not a Pioneer or a Toshiba.

HDDVD is meeting or exceeding goals.


I wouldn't quite go so far as to say that meeting your numbers by ignoring your largest competing player is meeting or exceeding goals.

Also, you can't drop your sales targets and say that the new finish line which you are closer to is now the real target. This goes for Sony and Toshiba.

I personally would rather have Microsoft in my corner, way more than Sony.

i am not going to bag on ms because my views of the big software giant does not really concern the everyday consumer. i was a full supporter in the days and they have shyed away from what they use to do best - software. instead, their products over the years have been the least robust, unreliable, and poorly designed. maybe the companies just too big and their product offerings are all over the place with no quality control. outsourcing? in any case, you take sony in comparison, a biggest CE mfg that always has an innovative design offering. they make mistakes but early adoption of any products is a chance that everyone takes. fail or suceed but their percentage of reliability is at least in the 90% margin. yeah, it's priced above your standard but sony is a "branding" that people recognize. they definitely can ask for a premium since they are known for products that are somewhat outside the norm. imagine the $ they pour into r&d development. a company like that leads and the rest follow. only thing that ms had for them was windows... sorry i said it.

Toshiba/Microsoft aren't being investigate by the EU.

Warren Liberfarb didn't call the HD DVD a "Cartel"

Toshiba/Microsoft haven't had to do damage control to shutup LG or Samsung when they talked about Universal players.

Sony has a poor history of playing within the rule. Does that make me a Sony hater? Nope..but it does explain why the BDA is the way they are.

Sony will through out money..and it will fail and they will fire Howard Stringer after blaming him. What an amazing company they were. There was once a day where they couldn't lose. Now Apple is passing them in not only music players but soon mobile phone technology and certainly in influence.

Sony perhaps knows that this is their final attempt at maintaining their relevancy. They will spare no expense to keep on top.

Frankly I expected a better attempt from you. At least try to spin something and make it entertaining. The blatant lie approach already happened a few times earlier today from other HD DVD extremists, get a new act please.

I was in a hurry. It was actually worded more strongly than I believe. I do believe that HDDVD companies are happy with it's performance, especially in light if the competition, but they, as has the BD crew, have had to modify their projections because of the general lack of consumer interest.

Toshiba/Microsoft aren't being investigate by the EU.



If the EU is going to do something, it better do it before it's too late.

Most advantages of Blu-ray yield little real world differences.
BS IME novelties are real world differences, but larger disc space and higher bitrates that benefit viewing the actual movie aren't??

The format would be Betamax'd if Sony hadn't purchased the loyalty of many companies.

Well, the same can more than be said if Toshiba hadn't purchased the loyalty of Universal. :rolleyes:



I thought you were just some ranting fanboy, but it's no surprise to me now that I find out that you're just a raving Toshiba-employed cheerleader.

thebland et al.:

My view of the "low price" strategy is a bit different.

If you are in an established commodity market, then having the low price can be the ticket.

However, if you are in a format war, then having the low price isn't necessarily that much of a help. People will properly ask: "Sure, it's the cheaper, but is it going to win?"

People have had a lot of experience with AV formats now and they know that the initial cost is nothing compared to the on-going costs of buying media and the costs of buying additional and replacement players. Remember also that we are no where nearly ready for the mythical "J6P", we are still stuck at the middle adopter stage for both formats.

The current MSRP's--$299 vs. $499--are not that far apart for a format. The $200 difference is about 8 disks. People can easily spend $500 a year on media.

I am guessing that HD DVD will hit their $199 MSRP this winter (or less). Blu-ray will also fall, probably not as much. It won't matter that much yet.

After the format war is over and we are looking at broader adoption, yes, then the price will matter a lot.

So you are predicting a winner will emerge from the format war? No stalemate?

The S300 is priced 60% higher than the A2. And $200 pays for how many tanks of gas?

You don't have to buy a single HDM movie to enjoy HD movies - just rent them online at BBI and NF. Chances are they already do.

"will be" how long do you expect people to wait for capable players mate?

BD-Java is supposedly better yet it's still behind HD DVD and BD-Live isn't even functional.

The pricing is remaining fairly consistent with the lowest end HD DVD player being roughly half the cost of the Blu-ray player equivalent. Yet the HD DVD player still has more features.


What? You were the one talking about HD-DVD's long term advantages and then went on to mention interactivity and pricing! Listen if you are going to talk long term advantages why not have the prudent REQUIREMENT for this called patience. We all know BD-J and profile 1.1 is capable of higher quality PIP and more interactivity than iHD and the HD-DVD spec just as we all know it hasn't been realized yet, but if you are going to talk the talk of long term at least walk the walk. Same with prices. What was $500 retail price advantage last year is now $200. The pricing differential has NOT remained consistent and I *know* you are not so biased as to believe that at this time next year HD-DVD will have some huge price advantage, at this rate. You said LONG TERM remember?


No player market? That's news to a half million owners happily buying and watching movies. Blu-ray's market looks like a train wreck. Sony's writing more checkous out than they have coming in. They've had how many media sales to revive the sinking sales .....CLEAR!


Yeah, that's right, there is no player market for HD-DVD. One manufacturer making players and a video game add-on is not a market. The only way to convince new CE companies to make an HD-DVD compatible player apparently means also making it able to play the dominant format Blu-ray, because the CE companies know there is no market for HD-DVD players when you have one manufacturer going at it alone with pricing that is simply not profitable if you don't have a stake in HD-DVD. No wonder no new manufacturers are jumping in to make HD-DVD players--they know they won't make any money!

From a consumer perspective there also is no HD-DVD player market. You have to be kidding yourself to walk into the nation's #1 electronics retailer like Best Buy and see one market with players by Sony, Philips, Samsung, Pioneer and Panasonic and another by Toshiba and..... oh wait.

It's not a format that I want to back as my primary. Most advantages of Blu-ray yield little real world differences. The format would be Betamax'd if Sony hadn't purchased the loyalty of many companies.

LOL. Now you have it. It's all about an evil Sony who bought off everyone.

You know, if true, and they are the only one benefiting and these aren't really alliances per say, but they are just checks coming from Sony, good for freaking them. Us consumers don't want two different formats, we want all the companies and all the studios making just one that is compatible and easy to use with a large player and movie selection. You know, like Blu-ray minus oh, two companies, Universal and Toshiba.

All this masks the greatest problem HD-DVD faces, and its one they will NOT overcome, and that is consumer perception. The fact is, there *IS* no consumer perception of HD-DVD at the moment. It doesn't exist! No one is talking about it. Even when people like Leno or Limbaugh talk about high def movies and Blu-ray on their program it doesn't even get mentioned. It's not even available at the nation's #1 rental company outside of a few select stores. It won't be at the nation's #2 retailer with a player this holiday season. It's not on Denon's list of to-do's. It's not on the list of seven indie companies who went Blu-ray exclusive the past month. I mean it is nowhere. NO ONE is talking about HD-DVD outside of AVSForum. It is easy to miss that if you are always on here, but the dominoes are falling and they are falling hard. There really is no war outside of people discussing it. In the J6P world the reality is there is this new thing called "Blu-ray" and that is about all they know at this point. That's what happens when you have 90% of the world's major studios and 90% of the world's manufacturers--YOU ARE VISIBLE. That's what happens when you have one of the world's manufacturers and less than half the studios--YOU ARE INVISIBLE. So if Sony is really buying and paying for all of them, good for them, it is what it takes to even be on the radar in this world.

Truer words haven't been spoken.

Again I fail to see how this affects consumers. The Sunday paper comes..consumers pull out the adds and they see everyone selling the HD DVD players for $199 later this year. They then hop into the care and go to Target and see them trying to foise a $399 Blu-ray player on them. They view the HD DVD movies sitting so invitingly on the shelf.

Meh...Target loses the sale.

Folks, the people who would be most price conscious would have bought a standard definition television. The folks who buy HDTVs are more into quality and less into price at all "cost". So I can evision Agnes & Arnold discussing a player. Arnold says "Agnes, you're worth a Blu-ray player, so second rate substitutes fo."my girl -- you're beyond perfect." And Agnes says "oh thank you honey, let's get it today and surprise the kids tonight with this nice Disney movie".

Yeah, that's right, there is no player market for HD-DVD. One manufacturer making players and a video game add-on is not a market. The only way to convince new CE companies to make an HD-DVD compatible player apparently means also making it able to play the dominant format Blu-ray, because the CE companies know there is no market for HD-DVD players when you have one manufacturer going at it alone with pricing that is simply not profitable if you don't have a stake in HD-DVD. No wonder no new manufacturers are jumping in to make HD-DVD players--they know they won't make any money!

From a consumer perspective there also is no HD-DVD player market. You have to be kidding yourself to walk into the nation's #1 electronics retailer like Best Buy and see one market with players by Sony, Philips, Samsung, Pioneer and Panasonic and another by Toshiba and..... oh wait.

I believe Onkyo announced they are bringing an HD DVD player out in Q4 based on the XA2 with more features and the Samsung BD-UP5000 was just announced also for Q4 and it plays HD DVD's.

Even more to the point, Target will be getting paid to have BD end caps in their stores and will be selling a player that is out of price range for most consumers.

Additionally Targets gets to deal with the headaches when in spring of '08 these players can't play all of the special features on later BD releases.

Bravo for Target.

This is hardly a "BD" exclusive as was being claimed, they will still be selling HD DVD discs.

Dude, get real. Have you been into a Target lately and see what they are carrying for their HD-DVD movie selections? It's pitiful.

Folks, the people who would be most price conscious would have bought a standard definition television. The folks who buy HDTVs are more into quality and less into price at all "cost". So I can evision Agnes & Arnold discussing a player. Arnold says "Agnes, you're worth a Blu-ray player, so second rate substitutes fo."my girl -- you're beyond perfect." And Agnes says "oh thank you honey, let's get it today and surprise the kids tonight with this nice Disney movie".

RED - then why is the 37" the most popular LCD (dominant HDTV being sold today) sold world wide, followed by the 32"?

Does BR have price advantage?
Yes, it came FREE with my PS3 game console.
Does BR have fully capable players?
Yes, the PS3 has played every movie I put in. No need to boil discs either. Liar's Dice was cool too.
Whens the last time you bought a Fox title?
Ice Age: The Meltdown a month ago at my daughter's request.
Whens the last time you bought a descent Disney title?
POTC 1&2. Pretty good movies. I think they did well at the theatres too.

I'd say the Target announcement is interesting news. Whenever we cross the border over to Buffalo for shopping, we stop by Target & Ponderosa. I'm probably not the demographic they're after, but if the price and quality is right, I'm still buying. More places to purchase BD is a good thing. Keeps prices of BD products competitive with each other, especially when that's where the main competition will be. We all know format wars tend to be short-term noise - the real fight will be between BD CE companies as the market converges to one primary HD format.

BS IME novelties are real world differences, but larger disc space and higher bitrates that benefit viewing the actual movie aren't??

Well, the same can more than be said if Toshiba hadn't purchased the loyalty of Universal. :rolleyes:

I thought you were just some ranting fanboy, but it's no surprise to me now that I find out that you're just a raving Toshiba-employed cheerleader.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/flagsofourfathers.html
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/flagsofourfathers.html

Seperate encodes, BD50 on Blu-ray. No difference

I never gave Universal a pass for being exclusive.

What you thought was irrelevant. On AVS at any given moment you are the sum total of your argument. One that resorts to logical fallacies in lieu of effective argumentation is decidedly at a disadvantage.

I look forward to exchanging ideas and clarification in debate. I don't get upset because we don't agree on things. I was far more upset about my Seahawks losing in Chicago..but I'm almost over that.

Folks, the people who would be most price conscious would have bought a standard definition television. The folks who buy HDTVs are more into quality and less into price at all "cost". So I can evision Agnes & Arnold discussing a player. Arnold says "Agnes, you're worth a Blu-ray player, so second rate substitutes fo."my girl -- you're beyond perfect." And Agnes says "oh thank you honey, let's get it today and surprise the kids tonight with this nice Disney movie".

I've been in sales long enough to know that the more affluent the person the more mindful they tend to be about their money. Why is it when I go to Costco I see people stuffing Vizios into their Land Cruisers and not Sony's or Panasonics? We all know consumers won't see a difference in these movies. It's all smoke and mirrors. HD is HD. Thus give me the cheapest player that has the functionality I want. In that regard I'm just like every other consumer.

If the EU is going to do something, it better do it before it's too late.

This is quite to the point, but very unlikely to happen. The case against Microsoft took 6 years just to get to a conviction. And the consequences amounted to a slap on the wrist for MS despite an explicit court conviction. Standard wars are tricky business for anti-trust. Don't count on it playing any role in this war, unless it really drags on into 2009.

This is quite to the point, but very unlikely to happen. The case against Microsoft took 6 years just to get to a conviction. And the consequences amounted to a slap on the wrist for MS despite an explicit court conviction. Standard wars are tricky business for anti-trust. Don't count on it playing any role in this war, unless it really drags on into 2009.
I actually expect both to do fine in Europe. In the US people want less choice in these kinds of things.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/flagsofourfathers.html
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/flagsofourfathers.html

Seperate encodes, BD50 on Blu-ray. No difference

Funny, do you even read the links that you post?
it does seem that the Blu-ray/AVC encode is the tiniest bit sharper, while the HD DVD/VC-1 is the slightest bit softer.


Anyway, we all knew that Flags of our fathers had a similar encode.

50gb>30gb

Basic math, more space = less compression needed


Don't follow up with the VC-1 is transparent to the Master BS, either.

Funny, do you even read the links that you post?



Anyway, we all knew that Flags of our fathers had a similar encode.

50gb>30gb

Basic math, more space = less compression needed


Don't follow up with the VC-1 is transparent to the Master BS, either.

All codecs can be transparent to the master and many tests have proven that AVC and VC-1 do it at their midpoints, and VC-1 at a much lower BR than AVC. Either way, 95% of the movie is getting thrown away. The insignificant difference that the person saw could have easily been the player, display or the setup of either.

Funny, do you even read the links that you post?
Anyway, we all knew that Flags of our fathers had a similar encode.
50gb>30gb
Basic math, more space = less compression needed
Don't follow up with the VC-1 is transparent to the Master BS, either.


You forgot this

neither is an advantage to my eyes and each encode is identical otherwise -- fans of both camps should be ecstatic to see this film looking so good.

More space does mean lower compression but these things aren't linear so you cannot assume that means higher quality.

You know this incessant need to justify purchasing your HD at twice the price that HD DVD is going for is becoming an albatross for many of you. Just enjoy your movies.

All codecs can be transparent to the master and many tests have proven that AVC and VC-1 do it at their midpoints, and VC-1 at a much lower BR than AVC. Either way, 95% of the movie is getting thrown away. The insignificant difference that the person saw could have easily been the player, display or the setup of either.

Very true, and I appreciate your respectable classic AVS style response. I just get tired of the "VC-1 is perfect every time, we only need 30gb" song that we hear sung so much.

Toshiba/Microsoft aren't being investigate by the EU.Umm, you live in Seattle right? And you aren't aware of a bit of an issue between the EU and Microsoft (not to mention the US DOJ)?!? Wow, you need to be more informed on current events.
Warren Liberfarb didn't call the HD DVD a "Cartel" Oh, would that be the Warren Lieberfarb who worked for Toshiba and perhaps loses the most personal credibility by the failure of HD DVD?
Toshiba/Microsoft haven't had to do damage control to shutup LG or Samsung when they talked about Universal players. How are LG or Samsung being prevented from discussion their combo player plans? Besides, Microsoft has its hands full with lots of other damage control, i.e. failing Xbox 360's, massive Vista dissatisfaction, etc.

What? You were the one talking about HD-DVD's long term advantages and then went on to mention interactivity and pricing! Listen if you are going to talk long term advantages why not have the prudent REQUIREMENT for this called patience. We all know BD-J and profile 1.1 is capable of higher quality PIP and more interactivity than iHD and the HD-DVD spec just as we all know it hasn't been realized yet, but if you are going to talk the talk of long term at least walk the walk. Same with prices. What was $500 retail price advantage last year is now $200. The pricing differential has NOT remained consistent and I *know* you are not so biased as to believe that at this time next year HD-DVD will have some huge price advantage, at this rate. You said LONG TERM remember?



Yeah, that's right, there is no player market for HD-DVD. One manufacturer making players and a video game add-on is not a market. The only way to convince new CE companies to make an HD-DVD compatible player apparently means also making it able to play the dominant format Blu-ray, because the CE companies know there is no market for HD-DVD players when you have one manufacturer going at it alone with pricing that is simply not profitable if you don't have a stake in HD-DVD. No wonder no new manufacturers are jumping in to make HD-DVD players--they know they won't make any money!

From a consumer perspective there also is no HD-DVD player market. You have to be kidding yourself to walk into the nation's #1 electronics retailer like Best Buy and see one market with players by Sony, Philips, Samsung, Pioneer and Panasonic and another by Toshiba and..... oh wait.



LOL. Now you have it. It's all about an evil Sony who bought off everyone.

You know, if true, and they are the only one benefiting and these aren't really alliances per say, but they are just checks coming from Sony, good for freaking them. Us consumers don't want two different formats, we want all the companies and all the studios making just one that is compatible and easy to use with a large player and movie selection. You know, like Blu-ray minus oh, two companies, Universal and Toshiba.

All this masks the greatest problem HD-DVD faces, and its one they will NOT overcome, and that is consumer perception. The fact is, there *IS* no consumer perception of HD-DVD at the moment. It doesn't exist! No one is talking about it. Even when people like Leno or Limbaugh talk about high def movies and Blu-ray on their program it doesn't even get mentioned. It's not even available at the nation's #1 rental company outside of a few select stores. It won't be at the nation's #2 retailer with a player this holiday season. It's not on Denon's list of to-do's. It's not on the list of seven indie companies who went Blu-ray exclusive the past month. I mean it is nowhere. NO ONE is talking about HD-DVD outside of AVSForum. It is easy to miss that if you are always on here, but the dominoes are falling and they are falling hard. There really is no war outside of people discussing it. In the J6P world the reality is there is this new thing called "Blu-ray" and that is about all they know at this point. That's what happens when you have 90% of the world's major studios and 90% of the world's manufacturers--YOU ARE VISIBLE. That's what happens when you have one of the world's manufacturers and less than half the studios--YOU ARE INVISIBLE. So if Sony is really buying and paying for all of them, good for them, it is what it takes to even be on the radar in this world.

***TSSSSSSSS*** He's on Fiya!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Xbox will fly off the shelves as Halo 3 grabs us by the short and curlies. Don't worry...we will give your thoughts of domination a beautiful death.
I have a 360 and PS3. I do have the HD-DVD add-on for movies. I prefer the 360 for games like the Halo series and Gears of War.

That said, is everyone who buys a 360 for Halo3 going to buy an HD-DVD add-on?

No way.

Heres a telling sign....I subscribe to the Official Xbox Magazine and in the Rumor Mole section they have all but conceded the war will be won by blu-ray. This is coming from the OFFICIAL mag of the Xbox. Thats telling.

This war is slowly coming to an end, blu-ray is catching momentum and the Blockbuster/soon to be Target news is just signs of whats to come. HD-DVD is this generations Betamax, like it or not. Personally, I'm happy because blu-ray is the superior technology, unlike VHS.

HD DVD is virtually invisible at Best Buy, Target quarantined then to 250 stores and now Target may avoid them as well.

Your local Best Buys must be a whole lot different than those around here. HD DVD is on endcaps and is positioned first when you come in the door, sharing equal shelf space and titles with BD.

No big deal, but there's no reason to use such hyperbole when there are enough legitimate points to be made.

Your local Best Buys must be a whole lot different than those around here. HD DVD is on endcaps and is positioned first when you come in the door, sharing equal shelf space and titles with BD.

No big deal, but there's no reason to use such hyperbole when there are enough legitimate points to be made.

It's plenty visible where I live as well.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/flagsofourfathers.html
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/flagsofourfathers.html

Seperate encodes, BD50 on Blu-ray. No difference

I never gave Universal a pass for being exclusive.

What you thought was irrelevant. On AVS at any given moment you are the sum total of your argument. One that resorts to logical fallacies in lieu of effective argumentation is decidedly at a disadvantage.

I look forward to exchanging ideas and clarification in debate. I don't get upset because we don't agree on things. I was far more upset about my Seahawks losing in Chicago..but I'm almost over that.


I hate to repeat myself with you but you realize you are on a forum of nerds who like to push technology and push the utmost audio and video quality ANY spec will allow, and you are arguing for LESSER specs as if it will never matter and as if we are all grandma's who don't care. Why not just get it over with and go and argue for 720P > 1080P on the LCD subforum because most of us can't really see the difference anyways.

I think most of us are wise enough to know we've been through this in the past. More = more in technology whether we can tell in the beginning or not. Eventually things get maxxed out and in an AVSForum, most of us want it maxxed out more than less. 640K is not enough and I don't exactly know what 20GB and 18mbps more will mean, but I'll take it given the choice.


Thus give me the cheapest player that has the functionality I want. In that regard I'm just like every other consumer.

But you are not like every other consumer though if that's your criteria. Most people do not just look at price and then weigh functionality. They first look at branding and functionality and THEN weigh price. No one buys the cheapest MP3 player they can find, they buy the one they WANT from the brand they TRUST. Same with pretty much every purchase in life. Many more people own Sony TV's then Westinghouses, Toyotas than Kias. Yet in your world it should be the opposite because the Kia and the Westinghouse have the same functionality. And the consumer always chooses the cheapest thing he can find given similar functionality right??

Price only matter when you are talking about equally perceived products competing with one another from equally respected brands. I'm sorry but a Toshiba-only player that plays movies only from a couple studios, none of which are Disney, and all in a format that is much less visible in the marketplace and has no presence at my local Blockbuster is NOT the same thing as a product from Sony or Pioneer that has many more studios, including Disney, in a product that is a lot more visible at retail from a lot more companies, hence looking a lot more like a safe investment to anyone with a brain, and one that has a significant presence at my local Blockbuster. These are NOT Hondas versus Toyotas we are talking about here. One of these products is clearly a Kia and anyone who buys anything cheap in life always ask themselves before buying it, why is it cheap?

People almost never shop retail the way you are suggesting. They look at brands. They look at what they will do with it. They subconsciously feel either warm and fuzzy and safe about the purchase or feel like they are taking some kind of risk. And they weigh all of this against pricing. Again, it's not a question of something being cheap so it must be a great value so I must buy it and that is all there is to it.

And I'm sure your purchase was no different. You work for Toshiba and clearly don't like Sony so this situation fit all the criteria to make such a purchase. You had to like the brand and you had to feel warm and fuzzy about your purchase before weighing the price. Then you jumped in. It is pretty much the step every consumer makes and you are dismissing your own mentality in favor of some idiot persona who is driven only by a passion for cheapness.

You know this incessant need to justify purchasing your HD at twice the price that HD DVD is going for is becoming an albatross for many of you. Just enjoy your movies.

I bought my HD DVD player a year ago. I have both formats in my home, the price difference I paid was $100 more for my PS3. I like HDM and the technology behind it, I'm just calling it as I see it. Everything in this format war is painfully clear, the good and bad. I don't get paid by Sony or Toshiba, I just want the best quality HD movies on disc. I do not, however, want two formats in my home if one prevails. These movies on HD DVD & Blu-Ray are quite frankly too expensive. For the price I'm paying for these things I want to be able to bring them to a friends house if I choose and be able to watch my $35 disc at their house too. Two formats hold back adoption. I won't cry if HD DVD wins the war, but as an AV enthusiast I will say that I will not get excited about Toshiba's Cheaper/good enough approach.

Encodes, Space, bitrates, compression, codecs, transfers...that is what we care about. Not price.

For me the extra 20gb of space for compressionists to work with and the scratch resistant discs make Blu-Ray a winner in my eyes. Even if HD DVD survives long enough to get TL-51 to the market, it's still on a high-density disc that will skip if it gets a light scratch.

HD DVD, good and cheap. The Wine-in-a-box of HD media.

New technology is always pricey, and new technology always gets cheaper. I used to support HD DVD, but I clearly favor Blu-Ray now. HD DVD would have to make their product better than it is now to win my heart back.

The folks who buy HDTVs are more into quality and less into price at all "cost.

LOL! yeah ok. :rolleyes:

LOL! yeah ok. :rolleyes:

Because we all know Westinghouse outsells Sony HDTVs!

TheLoveone:
But you are not like every other consumer though. Most people do not just look at price and then weigh functionality. They first look at branding and functionality and THEN weigh price

Then why is Wal-Mart the largest retailer in the world with Target #2?

ResOGlas

I have never been so proud of a fellow member. You just came out of the Blu Ray closet. :D

Seriously, great post. I think you are right on TARGET.

Sorry to interfere with everyone's OT discussion, but has anything been announced from Target?

Then why is Wal-Mart the largest retailer in the world with Target #2?

Walmart couldn't sell $99 HD DVD players. They are irrevelent.

I'll repeat my take on HD DVD

The problem with HD DVD and their $199 players is that they have been locked out of every B&M so even if the Joe 6 Pack wanted to spend less on a HD format, he won't even know HD DVD exists. HD DVD is virtually invisible at Best Buy, Target quarantined then to 250 stores and now Target may avoid them as well. In fact, if Toshiba keeps this fire sale pricing going, even Walmart's possible Trojan Horse of cheap chinese HD DVD players may turn into the more profitable and expensive cheap Blu Ray players.....HD DVD seems to be having an identity crisis that low, low prices won't fix. Heck, no one wants to manufacturer a player but Toshiba... I don't know how many flesh wounds (e.g. Target) HD DVD can take before it collapses.

Sorry to interfere with everyone's OT discussion, but has anything been announced from Target?

Target announced that they will exclusively carry a Blu-Ray player this holiday season and that there will be a new Blu-Ray end-cap.

My Personal Opinion on the Target announcement:

It was not what the BRD supporters expected. They wanted an exclusive retailer. They thought Target was going to be it. Turns out that Target will sell the S300 starting in October. No other BDA CEM's - just Sony.

And they will continiue to sell both BRD and HD DVD movies (in their limited way)

IMO - the BRD camp is not happy and the HD DVD camp doesn't see this as a big win for BRD . . . A $500 S300 at Target . . . who sells $50 DVD players and $5.50 DVD's.

Ok I'm running out of time but in honor of your eloquent post I will return the favor.

What? You were the one talking about HD-DVD's long term advantages and then went on to mention interactivity and pricing! Listen if you are going to talk long term advantages why not have the prudent REQUIREMENT for this called patience. We all know BD-J and profile 1.1 is capable of higher quality PIP and more interactivity than iHD and the HD-DVD spec just as we all know it hasn't been realized yet, but if you are going to talk the talk of long term at least walk the walk. Same with prices. What was $500 retail price advantage last year is now $200. The pricing differential has NOT remained consistent and I *know* you are not so biased as to believe that at this time next year HD-DVD will have some huge price advantage, at this rate. You said LONG TERM remember?

Your claims of BD-Java superiority are unsubstantiated. Java has been around forever. Why are we still waiting? If it's superior it certainly has an odd way of showing it in movies. It hasn't been realized yet. Well neither has moving an object with mass at the speed of light. Doesn't mean I want to hold my breath in anticipation. Don't give me a dollar amount give me a percentage. Last year HD DVD was %50 cheaper...this year it's %40. Feel free to wait until next year to get competitive but at that point you'll have over a million players to contend with and millions more on the way.


Yeah, that's right, there is no player market for HD-DVD. One manufacturer making players and a video game add-on is not a market. The only way to convince new CE companies to make an HD-DVD compatible player apparently means also making it able to play the dominant format Blu-ray, because the CE companies know there is no market for HD-DVD players when you have one manufacturer going at it alone with pricing that is simply not profitable if you don't have a stake in HD-DVD. No wonder no new manufacturers are jumping in to make HD-DVD players--they know they won't make any money!

Well that'd be news to HP that delivers the HD100, or the 7-8 laptop manufacturers that deliver HD DVD mechanisms in some products. Or LG that makes a Universal player. On one end you want to denigrate Toshib for having a small market yet you don't acknowlege that Sony's first player was made by Pioneer and that Philips and Samsung shared the same OEM player. In light of the confusion you've shown about your own platform isn't it safe to say that your knowledge of the HD DVD platform is probably even worse? Isn't it odd that you claim no manufacturers are jumping in yet it's easy to find pics of the Onkyo HD805 or Venturer SDH7000. Isn't it easy to find CES 2007 press release stating that Microsoft and Broadcom are partnering on a Reference Platform using Win CE and the BMC7440? If you had you'd see that Meridian is helping design players, Onkyo is delivering a player, ED/Digital, Alco, Liteon and others will have players. Samsung has jumped into the Universal fray as well.

From a consumer perspective there also is no HD-DVD player market. You have to be kidding yourself to walk into the nation's #1 electronics retailer like Best Buy and see one market with players by Sony, Philips, Samsung, Pioneer and Panasonic and another by Toshiba and..... oh wait.

Then explain why Blu-ray standalone players from Sony, Philips, Samsung, Panasonic and Pioneer combined haven't usurped the sales of the Toshiba standalones.

LOL. Now you have it. It's all about an evil Sony who bought off everyone.

You know, if true, and they are the only one benefiting and these aren't really alliances per say, but they are just checks coming from Sony, good for freaking them. Us consumers don't want two different formats, we want all the companies and all the studios making just one that is compatible and easy to use with a large player and movie selection. You know, like Blu-ray minus oh, two companies, Universal and Toshiba.

Sony may not be Evil but their actions with Root kits and other deceptive practices have been consistent with the type of actions an Evil company might make.

All this masks the greatest problem HD-DVD faces, and its one they will NOT overcome, and that is consumer perception. The fact is, there *IS* no consumer perception of HD-DVD at the moment. It doesn't exist! No one is talking about it. Even when people like Leno or Limbaugh talk about high def movies and Blu-ray on their program it doesn't even get mentioned. It's not even available at the nation's #1 rental company outside of a few select stores. It won't be at the nation's #2 retailer with a player this holiday season. It's not on Denon's list of to-do's. It's not on the list of seven indie companies who went Blu-ray exclusive the past month. I mean it is nowhere. NO ONE is talking about HD-DVD outside of AVSForum. It is easy to miss that if you are always on here, but the dominoes are falling and they are falling hard. There really is no war outside of people discussing it. In the J6P world the reality is there is this new thing called "Blu-ray" and that is about all they know at this point. That's what happens when you have 90% of the world's major studios and 90% of the world's manufacturers--YOU ARE VISIBLE. That's what happens when you have one of the world's manufacturers and less than half the studios--YOU ARE INVISIBLE. So if Sony is really buying and paying for all of them, good for them, it is what it takes to even be on the radar in this world

You need to slow down when you read. Blockbuster will still rent HD DVD online..not that I care because I'd use Netflix over them in a heartbeat. Target's HD section is how big? Thought so. Denon's $2k player just breaks my heart. I so dearly want to pay 3x for the HD player that I paid for my HDTV.

I get Google Alerts that tell me HD DVD is being talked about plenty. Don't for once think that I'm going to take the word of some guy who can't form an original comment to save his life. Enough of your puerile hypothetics. I've got HD DVD movies to watch.

Walmart couldn't sell $99 HD DVD players. They are irrevelent.

I'll repeat my take on HD DVD

The problem with HD DVD and their $199 players is that they have been locked out of every B&M so even if the Joe 6 Pack wanted to spend less on a HD format, he won't even know HD DVD exists. HD DVD is virtually invisible at Best Buy, Target quarantined then to 250 stores and now Target may avoid them as well. In fact, if Toshiba keeps this fire sale pricing going, even Walmart's possible Trojan Horse of cheap chinese HD DVD players may turn into the more profitable and expensive cheap Blu Ray players.....HD DVD seems to be having an identity crisis that low, low prices won't fix. Heck, no one wants to manufacturer a player but Toshiba... I don't know how many flesh wounds (e.g. Target) HD DVD can take before it collapses.

?

So how many BB's did you sample to get to this conclusion that BB doesn't sell A2's? They sell them at my BB - 2 of them less than 15 miles apart and at CC - right across the street from one of the BB's.

There is no "fire sale" - Toshiba made it VERY clear that they would ALWAYS be priced lower than BRD - This was stated at the beginning of this year.

Again, I repeat - Wal-Mart has it's own a2 - the HD A2W. With these prices - who need Chinese players - Toshiba will be more than happy to provide Wal-Mart with 1 million A2W's that WM can price at $199 and buy from Toshiba for $149 or lower.

Speculation - of course - just like you are doing

It is very funny to read the hd dvd fans talking about how the bda and sony are struggling and breathing their last breath to hold on

Any sane person can see Blu-ray is slowly but surely wiping the floor with HD DVD.

Target announced that they will exclusively carry a Blu-Ray player this holiday season and that there will be a new Blu-Ray end-cap.
Thank you for saving me from having to find this info buried under the pages of verbal diarrhea. ;)

With these prices - who need Chinese players

Oh the revisionism, the revisionism!! Ahhhhhh!! :p

There is no "fire sale" - Toshiba made it VERY clear that they would ALWAYS be priced lower than BRD - This was stated at the beginning of this year.

The moment BD gets desperate enough, if that ever happens, they can easily pull the same "take a loss to get market share" strategy with any stand-alone that any manufacturer wants to sacrifice.... just like Toshiba.

Sony may not be Evil but their actions with Root kits and other deceptive practices have been consistent with the type of actions an Evil company might make.

When has Sony used rootkits? Perhaps you are confusing the situation with Sony-BMG, a joint venture between Sony and BMG, with full operational independence?

It strikes me how often people attribute the rootkit thing to some decision made within Sony corporate. That was all record execs run amok at their own company, one in which Sony owns a 50% stake, but certainly isn't consulted about matters rootkit related.

Why not say that it was BMG that was responsible for the rootkits? I've not seen that posted once, yet it is just as true... and false.


Wow..that's really "wiping the floor with HD DVD"

Better get that prescription refilled Doby.

Let's just say that you've picked a conveniently innocuous picture to post. Certainly you could choose a more accurate measure like YTD and SI sales figures, but it might not support your point as well.

"First rule of leadership...EVERYTHING is your fault"

Hopper says so.

In my younger days I worked for Silo, The Good Guys, Gateway Country and every Mac store in Seattle. I've talked to more people than you have brain cells. Feel free to generate your halcyonic dreamworld. If it makes you feel better then that's great.

Silo.....out of business
Good Guys.....still around in limited capacity
Gateway country.....closed all of its stores
Mac stores.......closed most of their stores

I am glad you are an HD DVD fan.......blu ray wins!!!!

The moment BD gets desperate enough, if that ever happens, they can easily pull the same "take a loss to get market share" strategy with any stand-alone that any manufacturer wants to sacrifice.... just like Toshiba.

Link to Toshiba taking a loss on sale of 2nd gen players?

Let's just say that you've picked a conveniently innocuous picture to post. Certainly you could choose a more accurate measure like YTD and SI sales figures, but it might not support your point as well.

Top 10 is always accurate. It typically highlights the recent releases. The type of movies that people seek in a store. Not many people get excited by that movie ranked #99.

The picture paints a different picture than what is coming from the gullet of guys like Doby. Rather than realize the dynamic nature of media sales many would rather just bleat tired mantras like 2:1 sales ratio.

The current fallacy du jour is "the rebate of HD DVD had no effect". Gentleman the effect is what you see everyday as HD DVD tracks evenly upwards along with Blu-ray. It's all the more impressive when you consider the numeric advantage of BD players.

Silo.....out of business
Good Guys.....still around in limited capacity
Gateway country.....closed all of its stores
Mac stores.......closed most of their stores

I am glad you are an HD DVD fan.......blu ray wins!!!!


I'm glad you are an HD fan. What flavor is of no consequence to me.

There you have the link: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare.php

Very funny! Just like the story of the losses Toshiba is taking . .

"Once upon a time . . "

Top 10 is always accurate. It typically highlights the recent releases. The type of movies that people seek in a store. Not many people get excited by that movie ranked #99.

The picture paints a different picture than what is coming from the gullet of guys like Doby. Rather than realize the dynamic nature of media sales many would rather just bleat tired mantras like 2:1 sales ratio.

The current fallacy du jour is "the rebate of HD DVD had no effect". Gentleman the effect is what you see everyday as HD DVD tracks evenly upwards along with Blu-ray. It's all the more impressive when you consider the numeric advantage of BD players.

Tracks evenly yes, but at that 2:1 ratio.

Now why would people "bleat" out that mantra? Perhaps because it's much more important than whatever's going on with the Top 10? Every day the ratio remains at that, is a day that the SI numbers track closer to that figure - and that trend is negative for HD DVD.

If all the HD DVD price-cuts and rebates have done is keep Toshiba steady in their position, that cannot be viewed as a positive, because their position is at present bleak compared to their opposition.

Time this bickering is getting out of hand.