Why are we as consumers attacking the low prices of hardware?

I am absolutely amazed at posts attacking the low prices of hidef players. Everybody should put a smile on their faces seeing the price drop of players. But no!, the attacks is freaking annoying that people are trying so freaking hard to tell the world that low prices are bad. I mean omg. Get a grip people !!

Why are we as consumers attacking the low prices of hardware?

I am absolutely amazed at posts attacking the low prices of hidef players. Everybody should put a smile on their faces seeing the price drop of players. But no!, the attacks is freaking annoying that people are trying so freaking hard to tell the world that low prices are bad. I mean omg. Get a grip people !!
This entire thing confuses me. Never have I seen consumers take the side of corporations like this. It isn't a good thing, either.

These people aren't consumers when they attack low pricing. They are mouthpieces for their chosen format.

I've seen people here cheering DRM and high priced players. It's as if some alternate reality has taken hold and suddenly many here have done a 180 degree turn from what the typical consumer does.

I don't like to pay any additional than I have to unless theres some benefit or convenience factor involved.

So prices should be zero then? Or negative?

So prices should be zero then? Or negative?

Yes...get as close to these numbers as possible. After all the money is in the media.

So prices should be zero then? Or negative?
Would that be a problem for you? Sony subsidizes PS3s. WOuld you prefer to pay the $900 it costs for them to make money? I'm sure they'll take a check for the balance.

They are mouthpieces for their chosen format.


Surely the more ironic thing I've read all year. Coming from HD-DVD's biggest mouthpeice.

Plain and simple it's fear. People fear that if the market drives the prices too low for hardware the studios and CE will give up because of lack of profit. That way they won't get their precious HD media and that would be the end of the world :rolleyes:

Surely the more ironic thing I've read all year. Coming from HD-DVD's biggest mouthpeice.

:D :D :D

No one is "mad" that the prices are cheap. You get what you pay for.

Surely the more ironic thing I've read all year. Coming from HD-DVD's biggest mouthpeice.

builty I take that as a compliment. Thank you. Someone has to speak out against the tyranny of high prices and crippled players.

The important thing is to reduce the cost of the players and make room for stuff like this

http://www.mydigitallife.info/2007/07/01/toshiba-new-vardia-series-hard-disk-recorder/

These aren't your father's DVD. Let's stop treating these players like dumb boxes. They have the smarts now. They hook up to our networks and can process external transactions.

There's money to be made in the higher end but the days of tossing in a hot asic of the month and getting sales is over. It's time to embrace a more technical future for media playback.

HD DVD is embracing this. The BDA has thwarted this inevitability.

No one is "mad" that the prices are cheap. You get what you pay for.

And just what do you have that I don't?

And just what do you have that I don't?

most likely he's got a higher credit card bill :D

A higher credit card bill :DThen you are doomed. :(

And just what do you have that I don't?

A format that will last.

And just what do you have that I don't?

A player not manufactured by Toshiba. A player that doesn't skip or lock up...

Unless we're talking about my HD DVD player...

And just what do you have that I don't?

Good Lord, man! Don't leave yourself open like that. There are about a million punchlines that could be thrown at you here.

Seriously, I don't get attacking the prices myself. Toshiba pushing prices low is good for Blu-ray if they win. Their prices will be lower and the standard will move into mass acceptance sooner. The only way it could hurt a victorious Blu team is if Toshiba keeps producing low prices in an attempt to kill the market by creating confusion.

builty I take that as a compliment. Thank you. Someone has to speak out against the tyranny of high prices and crippled players.




What's amazing to me is that you have convinced yourself that your "work" here and on other forums, to spread the Gospel of HD-DVD, is actually intrinsically important!

When your format of choice isn't priced near what many consider the "mass adoption" price point, suddenly the other formats $199 player becomes unimportant and irrelevant in this war.

I don't know about others here, but as an HD DVD supporter, I'd jump on a chance to own a sub $200 BR player simply to spoil myself even more. ;)

Surely the more ironic thing I've read all year. Coming from HD-DVD's biggest mouthpeice.

did he ever say that he is neutral or an consumer advocate as some people at digital bits claim they are for example?

Why are we as consumers attacking the low prices of hardware?

I am absolutely amazed at posts attacking the low prices of hidef players. Everybody should put a smile on their faces seeing the price drop of players. But no!, the attacks is freaking annoying that people are trying so freaking hard to tell the world that low prices are bad. I mean omg. Get a grip people !!

I think the only people you need to be telling to get a grip are those that not only 1) Think these conversations are really important in life and 2) Think that when consumers buy anything, the only thing they care about is price.

Plain and simple it's fear. People fear that if the market drives the prices too low for hardware the studios and CE will give up because of lack of profit. That way they won't get their precious HD media and that would be the end of the world :rolleyes:


there are plenty of below $100 DVD players in the market. why are these CEs keep making them? To maintain their presence? That should apply to hidef hardwares too no?

Plain and simple it's fear. People fear that if the market drives the prices too low for hardware the studios and CE will give up because of lack of profit. That way they won't get their precious HD media and that would be the end of the world :rolleyes:

I seriously doubt the studios want high-priced hardware. The cheaper it is, the more people can buy it. The CE companies, on the other hand, are so large that taking a loss on a single HDM player is not going to break them. If the player doesn't sell, they just try something else. That's what they do.

HD is still at the early-adoption point and certain people are going to buy it no matter what. As soon as sales start lagging, you can bet that hardware will become much more available and much cheaper, to the benefit of everyone.

Doug

there are plenty of below $100 DVD players in the market. why are these CEs keep making them? To maintain their presence? That should apply to hidef hardwares too no?

I never said it was rational, but I've heard it a lot over on the BD side of the fence. They've actually said it as an argument why HD DVD is bad, they are going to kill the market etc..... The same reason why they are willing to bend over and accept as much DRM as they can. Basically they're kow towing to the studios and saying "whatever you ask of us is fine just plllllllleeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaasssssssssssseeeeeeeeeee don't stop releasing HD movies!!!!!"

A format that will last.

That depends on me and my HD DVD brethren and it seems we're not doing a bad job of buying movies.

A player not manufactured by Toshiba. A player that doesn't skip or lock up...

Unless we're talking about my HD DVD pla

I feel your pain. I hate lockups and luckily I've picked a good HD-D2..not one lockup on any disc including Children of Men and other combos. My perception would be different if I had to deal with flaky performance.

What's amazing to me is that you have convinced yourself that your "work" here and on other forums, to spread the Gospel of HD-DVD, is actually intrinsically important!

I don't feel like it's important. I just say what I have to say and if people agree they agree if they don't they rip me a new one. Truth be told I'd rather have disagreements and get some insight into how another perceives things, than feel like I have to "assimilate".


I don't know about others here, but as an HD DVD supporter, I'd jump on a chance to own a sub $200 BR player simply to spoil myself even more.


I'm looking foward to the same. Either a cheap network BD player or I'll wait for a Universal. Like Loreal....I'm worth it. LOL

Someone has to speak out against the tyranny of high prices and crippled players.


Wow. I guess you and I have a very different definition of tyranny.
Heres mine, from freedictionary.com:


tyr·an·ny(tr-n)
n. pl. tyr·an·nies
1. A government in which a single ruler is vested with absolute power.
2. The office, authority, or jurisdiction of an absolute ruler.


Lets see, BD was co-developed and supported by the large collection of CE manufacturers. HD-DVD has basically one manufacturer (give or take some fluff) and one exclusive studio (give or take some more fluff.)
Seems that Toshina is the tyrant here don't you think???


And crippled players, just because they may not play back some silly PIP interview where the director talks about what he had for lunch that day on the set? Compared to HD-DVD players where skipping and boiling disks and faulty combos stop the actual feature from playing?

Dude, you're arguments are not helping your team ;)

When your format of choice isn't priced near what many consider the "mass adoption" price point, suddenly the other formats $199 player becomes unimportant and irrelevant in this war.

I don't know about others here, but as an HD DVD supporter, I'd jump on a chance to own a sub $200 BR player simply to spoil myself even more. ;)

+1, you show me a BD player that is between $200-$300 I'll jump all over it like jocks on cheerleaders.

+1, you show me a BD player that is between $200-$300 I'll jump all over it like jocks on cheerleaders.
You'll see a couple by Christmas I suspect.

These people aren't consumers when they attack low pricing. They are mouthpieces for their chosen format.

I've seen people here cheering DRM and high priced players. It's as if some alternate reality has taken hold and suddenly many here have done a 180 degree turn from what the typical consumer does.

I don't like to pay any additional than I have to unless theres some benefit or convenience factor involved.
A new version of Invasion of the (Blu) Body Snatchers?

I don't feel like it's important. I just say what I have to say and if people agree they agree if they don't they rip me a new one. Truth be told I'd rather have disagreements and get some insight into how another perceives things, than feel like I have to "assimilate".



Sure you do. I see you posting on HDBeat, HTForum, AVSForum, Blu-ray.com, and other forums posting all the same stuff. Surely someone that does this and spends as much time as you do thinks this is important in your life.

You said "Someone has to speak out against the tyranny of high prices and crippled players." This statement reveals that you actually think you are speaking out against something intrinsically horrible and believe that you are making a difference. Get a grip! I think it's cool you are going against the tide and have beliefs and all, but these things we discuss on here, they are not big life altering things like "tyranny" and "evil" and other words I have seen you use to describe Blu-ray, a mere shiny disc that no one is forcing anyone to buy and happens to play movies on people's TVs. In other words, a toy. I mean come on.

Wow. I guess you and I have a very different definition of tyranny.
Heres mine, from freedictionary.com:

Lets see, BD was co-developed and supported by the large collection of CE manufacturers. HD-DVD has basically one manufacturer (give or take some fluff) and one exclusive studio (give or take some more fluff.)
Seems that Toshina is the tyrant here don't you think???

And crippled players, just because they may not play back some silly PIP interview where the director talks about what he had for lunch that day on the set? Compared to HD-DVD players where skipping and boiling disks and faulty combos stop the actual feature from playing?

Dude, you're arguments are not helping your team ;)

Now look up Oligarchy builty and combine the two.

If Toshiba is a tyrant then I want to know the word they will choose for the BDA. Toshiba didn't design a entertainment format around draconian DRM. Blu-ray is DRM first ..entertainment second.

Yes..crippled because you don't have dual AV decoders or persistent storage or networking. Not bad in its own right but to charge me more? WTF are they thinking?

I've never had a skip on my player and I paid half of what you paid for your player. I've 20 movies sitting on my shelf that were purchased with the delta between our players.

I think that makes my argument sound and fiscally responsible and it surely helps my team.

+1, you show me a BD player that is between $200-$300 I'll jump all over it like jocks on cheerleaders.

I suppose they could strip out some audio decoders, remove the analog outs, leave off an Ethernet jack and delete the USB port. Make the door manual and only have power, open and play buttons. Slap a "made in China" label on it and you'd be set. You'd have to buy a remote somewhere else too. And your player would not be profile 1.1 compliant.

Would you still buy?

Sure you do. I see you posting on HDBeat, HTForum, AVSForum, Blu-ray.com, and other forums posting all the same stuff. Surely someone that does this and spends as much time as you do thinks this is important in your life.

You said "Someone has to speak out against the tyranny of high prices and crippled players." This statement reveals that you actually think you are speaking out against something intrinsically horrible and believe that you are making a difference. Get a grip! I think it's cool you are going against the tide and have beliefs and all,l but these things we discuss on here, they are not big life altering things like "tyranny" and "evil" and other words I have seen you use to describe Blu-ray, a mere shiny disc that no one is forcing anyone to buy and happens to play movies on people's TVs. In other words, a toy. I mean come on.

That is where you are wrong my friend for the battle between HD DVD and Blu-ray isn't about an optical format. It's about what consumers will accept regarding DRM. Blu-ray wants to you accept a virtual machine on your computer that watches your every move. They want you to accept region encoding.

Liberties of all kind are important and once they are gone they are hard to get back. Try to skip out on paying your property taxes and see how far that gets you.

What seems like a simple battle really isn't that simple or Toshiba and Sony wouldn't be knocking heads like this. Toshiba is content with the bit of licensing they get from AoD and other stuff. Sony wants a lot more.

You remain vigilant for the ones coming up after you who weren't around or mature enough to fight for liberty no matter how small. Your willful capitulation simply makes their life one that is more locked down and less expressive.

Both formats have their ups and downs. I like that HD DVD is region free, and I like that they released a quality product off the bat.

Sony is a bit too crazy about DRM, but Blu-Ray really isn't a bad product.


At the end of the day all we can do here on AVS is study, talk, and have hopes. The average consumer will buy the product they think is cool and has potential. Both are cool and have potential, so it's all how the media and studios portray the "war".

I suppose they could strip out some audio decoders, remove the analog outs, leave off an Ethernet jack and delete the USB port. Make the door manual and only have power, open and play buttons. Slap a "made in China" label on it and you'd be set. You'd have to buy a remote somewhere else too. And your player would not be profile 1.1 compliant.

Would you still buy?

of course not. I'm talking about a reputable brand like Toshiba.... Aka when the sony/Panny/ or some other reputable place does that. If toshiba can do it so can any company.

Both formats have their ups and downs. I like that HD DVD is region free, and I like that they released a quality product off the bat.

Sony is a bit too crazy about DRM, but Blu-Ray really isn't a bad product.


At the end of the day all we can do here on AVS is study, talk, and have hopes. The average consumer will buy the product they think is cool and has potential. Both are cool and have potential, so it's all how the media and studios portray the "war".
BD is fine. The DRM is ridiculous and it would have been nice to have better players than are currently available. Plus, Fox needs to stop with the DTS-MA crap. :mad:

Sony is a bit too crazy about DRM, but Blu-Ray really isn't a bad product.


yeah. they freaking need to pass the money to consumers like toshiba is doing instead of giving them to Disney, Fox, Blockbuster JUST so that they will read and release press releaseswritten by Sony (as theirs) !!

That is where you are wrong my friend for the battle between HD DVD and Blu-ray isn't about an optical format. It's about what consumers will accept regarding DRM. Blu-ray wants to you accept a virtual machine on your computer that watches your every move. They want you to accept region encoding.

Liberties of all kind are important and once they are gone they are hard to get back. Try to skip out on paying your property taxes and see how far that gets you.

What seems like a simple battle really isn't that simple or Toshiba and Sony wouldn't be knocking heads like this. Toshiba is content with the bit of licensing they get from AoD and other stuff. Sony wants a lot more.

You remain vigilant for the ones coming up after you who weren't around or mature enough to fight for liberty no matter how small. Your willful capitulation simply makes their life one that is more locked down and less expressive.

WOW. You really believe this is a true philosophical battle that is really important in life don't you and liken it to tyranny and evil, a couple words I have seen you use often. Holy cow man. These are discs we will use to watch movies and they will not be watching our every move and they will not be "limiting our expression." Forgive me if I will pass arguing with you in the future and if I may recommend perhaps logging off your computer for a few days and getting some perspective of what really is important in life to the average person, because I can tell you it ain't whether or not one can copy or import one's home videos. Most of us buy or rent our movies honestly, and we do it all in the good old USA. And none of us feel "locked down" because of it.

You know if you are so against copy protection and region encoding why not take the fight to DVD, or better yet why not go all out and practice what you preach and open up a file server complete with a library of ripped movies for all the world to share and tell the studios and the "cartel" as you call them to go take a flying leap. That'll show 'em!

What's unbelievable is watching someone argue against a studio protecting its own content in an age of RAMPANT piracy and in the same breath pretend like he is freeing society from the wrongs of a tyrant. What is amazing is you actually believe this viewpoint to be philosophically important and have obviously convinced yourself that you are making a positive difference in the world. Get a grip!

....... show a little respect please. we are not kids!!

Well, that statement can't really be made once we got the influx of PS3 Lovers in after Nov 2006

Well, that statement can't really be made once we got the influx of PS3 Lovers in after Nov 2006
I don't know what forum you've been reading but I'm seeing snide and immature posting from both sides of the fence in roughly equal amounts. And not all of it is coming from newcomers (nor even most of it, truth be told).

If anything, the level of vitriol seems highest among the people who've been here a long time and are either tired and frustrated with the format war or just irked (as you so clearly show) by the invasion of new blood into the forum to disrupt the ecosystem.

So when the A2 was at $399 it was a good deal - back in January. I don't remember anyone trashing it because of that price.

But when the exact same player hits $199 - then all of a sudden it's no good anymore.

Sound like "price envy" to me

I suppose they could strip out some audio decoders, remove the analog outs, leave off an Ethernet jack and delete the USB port. Make the door manual and only have power, open and play buttons. Slap a "made in China" label on it and you'd be set. You'd have to buy a remote somewhere else too. And your player would not be profile 1.1 compliant.

LOL. Now that's funny!

I'd imagine the $99 Blu Ray models next year will have to be hand cranked before you get to watch the movie.

Of course, the hand crank would verify your identity by fingerprint before allowing you to play the flick...

:p

So when the A2 was at $399 it was a good deal - back in January. I don't remember anyone trashing it because of that price.

But when the exact same player hits $199 - then all of a sudden it's no good anymore.

Sound like "price envy" to me
Actually, I've been trashing Toshiba's pricing structure since around March, even before the price drops.

It's not that I don't want to see lower pricing; of course I do. Everyone does. It's natural, we're consumers, and we want the best possible deal.

My issue with it is that it seems to me like a deliberate power grab by Toshiba. We can argue all day long about whether or not Toshiba is making or losing money per unit, but the fact is that Toshiba isn't dropping their pricing out of the goodness of their hearts. It's happening because they have no other choice.

The $499 introductory price point was a direct response to the PS3; had the PS3 not been in the picture, do you really think Toshiba wouldn't want to recoup some of their R&D/marketing costs by pricing themselves just under the Blu-ray units and not sacrificing ~$500 of profit per unit?

Take a look at the price timeline for the low end of HD DVD units. The price is maintained at $499 for months and months until it becomes clear that that price point isn't going to help HD DVD fight off the PS3's effect; ergo, a price cut is announced, and Toshiba picks up some volume.

A couple of months roll by, and HD DVD still fails to recover lost ground, thanks in part to near complete silence from Universal as far as new releases. Even with the $399 price point, Toshiba can see it's not enough even after Universal rejoins the fray. What to do now? Announce another price cut to gain more install base and market share, naturally.

Is it working? Doesn't seem to be in North America. The second generation Sony and Pioneer units seem to be selling pretty well, to the point where Toshiba isn't willing to claim better than 55% of the standalone market as of July.

What will Toshiba do now? Announce yet another price cut? Truly? It's possible; they have no other cards that they can play in the short term, and it's becoming obvious that there's a clock ticking before the retail channels start preparing for the holidays.

Note that none of these events are predicated on whether Toshiba is making a profit or sustaining a loss at any given price point; they are purely market driven forces that are forcing Toshiba's hand at every turn. Toshiba would have us believe that their pricing reductions are due to improvements and efficiency and that they're passing these savings on to the consumer, but that's never the reason why prices fall on consumer goods.

Personally, I am disinclined to believe what they claim, because there is a much simpler economic and strategic reason for their pricing behavior.

Unbelievable. You really believe this is a true philosophical battle that is really important in life don't you. These are discs we will use to watch movies and they will not be watching our every move. Listen if the studio wants to protect its content it has its right to do so. I can't believe people are arguing AGAINST DRM and in the same breath are acting like they are righting the wrongs of society. Get a grip. I'm sorry, but get a grip. Also I could care less about region encoding. I have never and I have never met ANYONE in my entire life who has ever needed to import a movie. This is something I only heard about on AVSForum. I'm sorry but the world is not like you. It does not site on AVSForums arguing for the "rights" of movie owners. People just want their lives simple. They want to go to Blockbuster or Best Buy, and pick up a movie. If they can't copy their friend's copy then good for the copyright holder, that's illegal. If they can't import a DVD from Japan go cry me a river. Is this what it is all about? Is this what really drives you to dedicate much of your life to all these discussions?

What is it. You said these discussions are not important to you. Now you are saying it is paramount to fighting tyranny and evil. I mean what does this format war mean to you. Because I can tell you to the average consumer they are not likening this format war to the war of property taxes or big brother or the rights of movie owners. Most people don't live in fear of being watched by their movie player and nor should they. But you spread this crap and I have little doubt you dedicate hours of your day to it, so don't try and play it off like this isn't important to you. You are obviously convinced that this is very important stuff in life and that you are actually making a positive difference by "fighting Blu-ray." I mean get a grip man. Seriously.

This is so flagrantly and unfairly one-sided. BOTH sides have strong advocates who spend much time on AVS discussing and defending their format of choice. You're just picking on someone who happens to not be on the side you support.

Spend more time in the Blu-ray forums. Many times when there has been positive Blu-ray news or negative HD DVD news, it's been an absolute FEEDING FRENZY. I've actually told HD DVD supporters on two occasions to stay out of the Blu-ray forums because at those times, the fanatics where going NUTSO.

So let's be a little more even-handed about this.

My issue with it is that it seems to me like a deliberate power grab by Toshiba. We can argue all day long about whether or not Toshiba is making or losing money per unit, but the fact is that Toshiba isn't dropping their pricing out of the goodness of their hearts. It's happening because they have no other choice.

The $499 introductory price point was a direct response to the PS3; had the PS3 not been in the picture, do you really think Toshiba wouldn't want to recoup some of their R&D/marketing costs by pricing themselves just under the Blu-ray units and not sacrificing ~$500 of profit per unit?

Take a look at the price timeline for the low end of HD DVD units. The price is maintained at $499 for months and months until it becomes clear that that price point isn't going to help HD DVD fight off the PS3's effect; ergo, a price cut is announced, and Toshiba picks up some volume.

A couple of months roll by, and HD DVD still fails to recover lost ground, thanks in part to near complete silence from Universal as far as new releases. Even with the $399 price point, Toshiba can see it's not enough even after Universal rejoins the fray. What to do now? Announce another price cut to gain more install base and market share, naturally.

Is it working? Doesn't seem to be in North America. The second generation Sony and Pioneer units seem to be selling pretty well, to the point where Toshiba isn't willing to claim better than 55% of the standalone market as of July.

What will Toshiba do now? Announce yet another price cut? Truly? It's possible; they have no other cards that they can play in the short term, and it's becoming obvious that there's a clock ticking before the retail channels start preparing for the holidays.

Note that none of these events are predicated on whether Toshiba is making a profit or sustaining a loss at any given price point; they are purely market driven forces that are forcing Toshiba's hand at every turn. Toshiba would have us believe that their pricing reductions are due to improvements and efficiency and that they're passing these savings on to the consumer, but that's never the reason why prices fall on consumer goods. .

geez - and the price of sony players rock bottomed from $1000 to less than $500! And that was because of PS3 too?

Toshiba did not say that the price reductions were because they are charitable person. HD DVD players do not cure cancer :p ! And they did not say that it was because of cheaper production cost. Sony was the one telling the press that they are charitably passing the $100 cost saving to PS3 buyers. Do not mistaken Sony and Toshiba ;)

and i see so problem whatsoever with Toshiba's pricing strategy. MS and Sony have been selling consoles at loss for how long so that they get money from selling games. when HD DVD is successful, Toshiba would be smiling while collecting license fees!

Is it working? Doesn't seem to be in North America. The second generation Sony and Pioneer units seem to be selling pretty well, to the point where Toshiba isn't willing to claim better than 55% of the standalone market as of July.

Yup. Didn't work last year when they had a price advantage twice as big in real dollars. They led a whopping 52 to 48. Now they're up 55 to 45 with near 1.7 million PS3's more than making up the balance.


What will Toshiba do now? Announce yet another price cut? Truly? It's possible; they have no other cards that they can play in the short term, and it's becoming obvious that there's a clock ticking before the retail channels start preparing for the holidays.

That's about the only option they have left. Are any enthusiast happy with a $30 Shinco DVD player? Hell no. Many, if not most, of us here would don't enjoy the bottom feeders. Take that stuff to the wal-mart forums. :o But I guess that's the last hope of the HDDVD partisan...

That's about the only option they have left. Are any enthusiast happy with a $30 Shinco DVD player? Hell no. Many, if not most, of us here would don't enjoy the bottom feeders.

but then, the tiny number of enthusiasts weren't the ones that keep DVD alive till now ;) It was millions of those who bought the 'shinco' players.

geez - and the price of sony players rock bottomed from $1000 to less than $500! And that was because of PS3 too?
The correct answer is : Yes.

Sony/Samsung/Pioneer/etc. all took the traditional CE path; price introductory units high to skim off the top of the early adopters who simply must have the latest and greatest at any price, then come down to a more reasonable price.

There's also the fact that Sony doesn't really want people buying the PS3 solely as a Blu-ray playback device.

Toshiba did not say that the price reductions were because they are charitable person. HD DVD players do not cure cancer :p !
I bet if you took a poll in the HD DVD forum here, the results would be shocking. The vast majority of HD DVD supporters here seem to feel that lower hardware pricing is somehow intrinsic to the HD DVD format, when the truth is probably far simpler (and vastly divergent from that idea).

And they did not say that it was because of cheaper production cost. Sony was the one telling the press that they are charitably passing the $100 cost saving to PS3 buyers. Do not mistaken Sony and Toshiba ;)
I believe Sony as much as I believe Toshiba, which is "not at all". Their price reduction is also market driven. They know they need to bring the price down and collect more market share to stay in the console wars, but they also don't dare to overdo it and go back to where they were before the Blu-ray standalones dropped to $499 MSRP where everyone opts for a PS3 simply because it's the best available value.

and i see so problem whatsoever with Toshiba's pricing strategy. MS and Sony have been selling consoles at loss for how long so that they get money from selling games. when HD DVD is successful, Toshiba would be smiling while collecting license fees!
There's a big difference here. Microsoft/Sony get a significantly hefty license fee per disc for video games. Right now, I believe the common wisdom pegs their share at somewhere between $5-10 per disc.

Toshiba's cut for HD DVD licensing is far smaller. How much smaller is anyone's guess, but I'm pretty sure it's nowhere near $5.

If in fact they are running with zero profit or even in the red on their hardware, it's going to take Toshiba a very long time to recover their costs, from their contributions to the $150M HD DVD Promotional Group war chest to their R&D costs for the HD DVD format itself. If, as some of the HD DVD-leaning posters on this forum would have us believe of late, Toshiba is looking to have HD DVD become permanently niche (a totally bizarra concept, IMO), their chances of recouping those costs falls to pretty much zero.

Still, what other choice to they have? They've already sunk the PR and research costs, and giving up now means they have no chance at all of seeing a return on their investment, so they're giving it their best shot, perhaps even throwing good money after bad in the process. It may even work if they can somehow magically turn the momentum around, but thus far, they've tried on several occasions to retake the momentum back with price cuts and each time they've fallen short.

Thead should be why are members attack other members?