....what about the rest of the world?

When I look at eproductwars.com, I see HD-DVD gaining some serious momentum in the U.S. market, while Blu-ray is slowly losing theirs. Then I look at their stats representing UK, DE, and JP, and Blu-ray is dominating in a major way.

While their is no doubt in my mind that HD-DVD has the ability to become the biggest selling format in the U.S., what about the rest of the world. If HD-DVD only wins over America and Blu-ray wins the majority of the other countries, what happens?

You forgot that China is HD DVD...

In the EU HD-DVD is winning decisively.

In the EU HD-DVD is winning decisively.

I wonder if eproductwars.com makes a conscious effort to only include countries where Blu-ray is winning.

and JP
Never happen there, Sony has iconic status - they are worshipped.

Well what happens is this.

The PS3 flys in like a Necromonger and converts or kills most other HD technologies. However in most cases they fail to kill the HD DVD Furyan and that means that the Furyan will come home to roost eventually.

HD DVD is a low burn whilst the PS3 is a flash explosion. This is a classic Tortoise and Hare competition where PS3 is the cocky Hare and HD DVD is the plodding but determined Tortoise.

You're going to see HD DVD mount an attack for the Holidays and put a lot of players into homes. In 2008 the battle is going to be different both formats will have millions of players and a thousand movies. The assumption that Blu-ray has won will be long gone word wide.

I wonder if eproductwars.com makes a conscious effort to only include countries where Blu-ray is winning.

No the problem is Amazon isn't that big in other countries as it is here Plus they don't have best buys jacking up the price unlike the competitive pricing they did with DVD back in the day. I am guessing that movie sales happen locally, just look at the stock numbers for these movies they hover at most at like 50 in Germany, and in the UK most of the HD-DVDs are sold out or at least don't have a stock amount. Of course they don't list france where their only studio and a very big studio like Studio+ is pushing out HD-DVD's only.

You forgot that China is HD DVD...

land of piracy will hurt more then help.

....what about the rest of the world?

I think both the HD-DVD group and the BD group know the USA is the place to fight hard for the first two years and the bulk of the rest of the world will follow.

Japan and China are the main countries that would adopt a non worlwide standard... But if Japanese and Chinese manufacturers all endup making HD-DVD players for the rest of world then it'd be hard to maintain a seperate format in their own market.

There are 4X the number of people in that one country. Even if there were piracy, the number of players sold there would more than guarantee HD DVD the financial victory. Besides they are the fasted growing economy in the world.

Well what happens is this.

The PS3 flys in like a Necromonger and converts or kills most other HD technologies. However in most cases they fail to kill the HD DVD Furyan and that means that the Furyan will come home to roost eventually.

HD DVD is a low burn whilst the PS3 is a flash explosion. This is a classic Tortoise and Hare competition where PS3 is the cocky Hare and HD DVD is the plodding but determined Tortoise.

You're going to see HD DVD mount an attack for the Holidays and put a lot of players into homes. In 2008 the battle is going to be different both formats will have millions of players and a thousand movies. The assumption that Blu-ray has won will be long gone word wide.
I agree.

In the EU HD-DVD is winning decisively.If you define winning as being outsold for software sales according to reports but leading in standalone sales then you could say that, but why not make the same claim about the US then? Last I saw Blu-ray was outselling HD DVD for software in Europe ever since the PS3 launched. And for those who think that the rest of the world doesn't matter, one of the reasons given for Blu-ray getting 4 IMAX titles later this year from a small company and those not coming out on HD DVD was because of the hardware advantage Blu-ray has worldwide. It is a small thing, but lots of small things add up. The PS3 might not count as 100%, but counting it as zero is just being deceptive. The worldwide matters much like the question of whether Universal is truely willing to forego most of the HD on disc market in Japan in coming years if things continue as they seem to be going there (with HD DVD not doing well in comparison).

About the only way that the HD DVD group is able to say they are winning in any region right now seems to be to limit the discussion to only standalone players and ignore how the discs are selling. Maybe that will change, but right now if anybody can name even one region of the world where HD DVD discs are selling faster than Blu-ray discs, I would like to hear what it is.

--Darin

Well what happens is this.

The PS3 flys in like a Necromonger and converts or kills most other HD technologies. However in most cases they fail to kill the HD DVD Furyan and that means that the Furyan will come home to roost eventually.

HD DVD is a low burn whilst the PS3 is a flash explosion. This is a classic Tortoise and Hare competition where PS3 is the cocky Hare and HD DVD is the plodding but determined Tortoise.

You're going to see HD DVD mount an attack for the Holidays and put a lot of players into homes. In 2008 the battle is going to be different both formats will have millions of players and a thousand movies. The assumption that Blu-ray has won will be long gone word wide.

How wrong can you be lol.

HD-DVD has to gain major marketshare THIS summer when player prices are rock bottom with few major BD software releases.

Only today we see actual sales figures givivng BD a 3-1 software lead this week.

In Europe the lead is even greater.

I guess you could spin things in HD-DVD's favour if you ignore PS3, but surely that doesn't happen these days...............

Ahemm...

Official numbers for this week - Nielsen total disc sales:

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4167/nielsenel4.jpg

74:26 is the highest BD versus HD-DVD sales ratio ever. There was no major movie release on either side this week.

Is there a trend to be seen in the US?

I would be ashamed, if my fellow Europeans would NOT chose HD DVD. There was a "Herren-format" once before in Europe - and I hope this will NOT happen again with bluray claiming to be the herrenformat. And I hope that the people are NOT following bluray like some sheeps to the blu-slaughterhouse. The Europeans should have learned to see through deceit by now - they should NOT support bluray. HD DVD is the future.

74:26 is the highest BD versus HD-DVD sales ratio ever. There was no major movie release on either side this week.The ratio was actually bigger the week that Casino Royale came out. And it was 4 to zero for releases for Blu-ray the week in question, although the previous week HD DVD had the 4 to zero release advantage and HD DVD only got things to 61:39. The 3 or 4 titles that are really helping the average for the top 10 for HD DVD on Amazon will likely help as they are released, but other than those helping the top 10 average for HD DVD as they should, I don't see much movement overall for HD DVD in the Amazon rankings. I would be more inclined to be impressed with what HD DVD is doing on Amazon if I saw more than mostly a natural effect from some good new releases.

--Darin

In the EU HD-DVD is winning decisively.

WHAT?? NOT TRUE!!!!

Uk / England , Germany and France are BLU!!! REST i have no idea.

ROFL "HD DVD is winning in europe" man you WISH!

There was no major movie release on either side this week.

Premonition on the BD side. While I'm surprised to see it do as well as it did, it apparently sold like pancakes. The brief promo on the Tonight Show (and lack of other new releases) may have helped a lot.


But, as you point out, this is just one week. There's obvious a ton of celebration and cork popping from the usual BD suspects in the forums, but it's just one week.

WHAT?? NOT TRUE!!!!

Uk / England , Germany and France are BLU!!! REST i have no idea.

ROFL "HD DVD is winning in europe" man you WISH!

I was just thinking the same exact thing. HD-DVD is not winning in Europe. Remember the release of the ps3 when it broke records for total console sales in one day? Blu-ray is winning in EU. LOL, talk about made up information.

Premonition on the BD side. While I'm surprised to see it do as well as it did, it apparently sold like pancakes. The brief promo on the Tonight Show (and lack of other new releases) may have helped a lot.


But, as you point out, this is just one week. There's obvious a ton of celebration and cork popping from the usual BD suspects in the forums, but it's just one week.

No it has been the past 10 months??? Not one week. This is a common thing ever single week that BD is outselling HD-DVD. Now next week when 300 on BD completely outsells HD-DVD, and there is another 3 to 1 ratio, you will say "it's just one week." Your gonna say that till the format war is over and the next thing you know you have a blu-ray player.

The ratio was actually bigger the week that Casino Royale came out. And it was 4 to zero for releases for Blu-ray the week in question, although the previous week HD DVD had the 4 to zero release advantage and HD DVD only got things to 61:39. The 3 or 4 titles that are really helping the average for the top 10 for HD DVD on Amazon will likely help as they are released, but other than those helping the top 10 average for HD DVD as they should, I don't see much movement overall for HD DVD in the Amazon rankings. I would be more inclined to be impressed with what HD DVD is doing on Amazon if I saw more than mostly a natural effect from some good new releases.

--Darin

Upps, I forgot about the Casino Royal week. I don't count The Fifth Element (Remastered) (Sony), Premonition (Sony), Waiting... (Lionsgate), Wild Things (Sony)
as "major releases" by any means. But Darin you are right, my post was everything but precise.


About "HD-DVD winning in Europe"...not the Europe I live in. Ever since the PS3 was launched BD dominated disc sales. The situation where I come from (Austria/Switzerland/Germany) is very much pro Blu-Ray.

See the following thread for a start on the topic:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=869806

Premonition on the BD side. While I'm surprised to see it do as well as it did, it apparently sold like pancakes. The brief promo on the Tonight Show (and lack of other new releases) may have helped a lot.


But, as you point out, this is just one week. There's obvious a ton of celebration and cork popping from the usual BD suspects in the forums, but it's just one week.

I agree. Premonition is by no means a major movie release (nor a "good" movie btw) but still did/does surpisingly well. Promotion is everything these days...

I was just thinking the same exact thing. HD-DVD is not winning in Europe. Remember the release of the ps3 when it broke records for total console sales in one day? Blu-ray is winning in EU. LOL, talk about made up information.

I can tell, im not lying, at the beginning in 2006 HD DVD was leading in germany, but then since jan. 2007 blu-ray grow soooo much here, right now the biggest electronicshop in germany "Media Markt" carry much more Blu-rays than HD DVD, in SOME (not many) they are Blu-ray exclusive in the shop!

I just went there today and i made a picture with my cellphone, in the HighDef TV area, and guess what? They add a couple of Blu-ray movies infront of the HDTV TV's , NO HD DVD at all.

The salesnumbers also prove that in germany Blu-ray is dominating.

HERE IS THE PIC. (its NOT the blu-ray area! The blu-ray area is alot of bigger)

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/6021/dsc00723yn7.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00723yn7.jpg)

I was just thinking the same exact thing. HD-DVD is not winning in Europe. Remember the release of the ps3 when it broke records for total console sales in one day? Blu-ray is winning in EU. LOL, talk about made up information.

Yeah ..we remember...and we also remember PS3 Europe sales plummeting %82 (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=23977) shortly afterwards.

As for the Videoscan numbers.

July 17th had no HD DVD releases. What do people expect?

No July 17th HD DVD releases (http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/07/16/hd-dvd-and-blu-ray-releases-on-july-17th-2007/)

As for the Videoscan numbers.

July 17th had no HD DVD releases. What do people expect?

No July 17th HD DVD releases (http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/07/16/hd-dvd-and-blu-ray-releases-on-july-17th-2007/)


Hm as far as i remeber there was a week were HD DVD had like 12 ? new relases and blu-ray 0 !! and STILL Blu-ray won the nielsen numbers at this week.

Please correct me if im wrong.

IMO, ANY FOOL that would choose BD over HDDVD is just that..... A FOOL

Where is MY $? In My POCKET...... WHERE is your's?

In Sony's................

IMO, ANY FOOL that would choose BD over HDDVD is just that..... A FOOL

Where is MY $? In My POCKET...... WHERE is your's?

In Sony's................


WOW! what a stupid comment.

As for the Videoscan numbers.

July 17th had no HD DVD releases. What do people expect?

No July 17th HD DVD releases (http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/07/16/hd-dvd-and-blu-ray-releases-on-july-17th-2007/)

How about some releases?

Ireland is all Blu.

Ahemm...

Official numbers for this week - Nielsen total disc sales:

Is there a trend to be seen in the US?

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4247/hd7day10tk4.png

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/903/amazonplayerso8.png

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3054/dvdempirerq4.png

Just some things I want to add (I live in Germany)

- Both HD-DVD and BD are currently insignificant here. There is very little representation in retail stores. The HD media are often hard to find, and there are typically maybe around 20 movies per format (BD usually seems to have some more titles than HD-DVD, but the difference is not big). Being used to that, I was quite amazed when I visitied the US a few months back and saw racks full of movies at Fry's; you guys are far ahead of us in this regard.

- The number of standalone players sold in Germany is probably less then 10,000 for either format, judging from the last GfK figures that I saw. On that low level, HD-DVD seems to be ahead because of the lower player prices. The PS3 is not selling well either at the "low" price of 600 Euros (about $820).

- The movies are often ridiculously expensive as well at retailers (often priced at 30-35 Euros, which is about $41-48!). Everybody I know uses mail order, where more reasonable prices can be found.

- The available movie selection is also much smaller than in the US. Many people who speak English well enough import most of their discs from the US (myself included). Amazingly, importing is also much cheaper than buying locally, even including shipping. This is probably even more pronounced in the UK (since there is no language barrier) and France (as north-american discs usually contain a french language track). So I wouldn't put much faith in the local disc sales numbers in Europe at this point.

Where is MY $? In My POCKET...... WHERE is your's?

In Sony's................

Not a "stupid comment" as one person put it.

It couldn't be more true.

Not a "stupid comment" as one person put it.

It couldn't be more true.

Well, it's a stupid comment if the point is to disparage Blu-Ray and show blind loyalty to HD-DVD by making it sound like it's a bad thing to give Sony money.

Isn't the comment ridiculing someone for spending money on Sony product while the poster's money stays in his pocket? I think that's kind of a big problem for HD-DVD right now, don't you think? His money is staying in his pocket - buying nothing - while the person he's attacking is actually spending money on Blu-Ray product.

I guess you're right - it's not a stupid comment, since it seems to fall in line with those Nielsen numbers.

why do i click on these threads?

The lower price and lack of region codes will eventually make HD-DVD the consumers choice outside of North America. It will take time to settle in, but in the long run, lower cost with good enough features always wins. Sony will fight to try to force higher cost and higher margins, but we've been there before.

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4247/hd7day10tk4.png

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/903/amazonplayerso8.png

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3054/dvdempirerq4.png

To look at such a small snapshot of a day or a week is about as statistically accurate as taking one man's opinion. I'll go with videoscan's numbers since it covers a broad spectrum of retail over a period of time... not just a day not even a week. These numbers are probably why you are seeing the recent flood of good news from smaller studios and retailers for Blu-ray:

Here are the numbers from June:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-9/1071897/blockbusterte2.jpg

Here are the numbers from July:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-9/1071897/nielsenel4.jpg

One or two popular titles or the top-selling HD DVD player matters not.... I appreciate the reverence HD DVD supporters have for their chosen format but you are being delusional when you ignore overall software sales as well as the impact of the PS3.

One or two popular titles or the top-selling HD DVD player matters not....
These are not one or two titles, it is the trend from the largest online retailer in the world. You're obsessing about a single week from Nielsen when HD-DVD didn't even release anything. Nielsen does not include Walmart. It is questionable if they include Amazon. No one really knows what they include.

However you absolutely believe it because it favors the format in your title:
Blu-ray Addict

Not a surprise.

Slow and steady wins the race. HD-DVD is continually gaining ground.

Slow and steady wins the race. HD-DVD is continually gaining ground.

Quote of the day. I saved your screen name so we can chat this December.

What is Nielsen/Videoscan? Why are their numbers reliable?

The recognized industry leader in analysis of the VHS and DVD Sell-Through Marketplace

VideoScan and ACNielsen (a partnership since January 2000, and sister companies under the VNU banner since 2001) seamlessly integrate point-of-sale (POS) data collected by both companies to provide a comprehensive view of the VHS and DVD sell-through business.

VideoScan, a leader in video market research since 1993, manages the business on behalf of the partnership. With its strong history and relationships with studios and electronic/specialty retailers, VideoScan provides industry-wide expertise and perspective.

ACNielsen, the leader in data services to the consumer packaged goods industry, brings its powerful analytic capabilities and broad coverage of the discount mass, grocery and drug retailers to the partnership.

Together, VideoScan and ACNielsen are the acknowledged leader in consumer research for the VHS and DVD sell-through industry. The partnership between VideoScan and ACNielsen is known as Nielsen VideoScan.

Sell-through POS (consumer purchase) sales data are collected weekly from traditional channels of video distribution including mass merchants, audio/video and video specialty retailers, electronics outlets, grocery stores, drug stores, and some Internet sites. Nielsen VideoScan maintains this weekly POS data in one of the largest databases of VHS and DVD products in the country. Data is collected on more than 40,000 VHS items and 12,000 DVD items. Virtually every UPC code in sell-through release since 1993 can be found in our extensive database. Complete sales data in all retail channels are available as far back as January 1999 (however Wal*Mart data is included only through 7/28/01). Prior to January 1999, limited information is available in most channels going back to 1993.

Nielsen VideoScan's VHS and DVD sell-through data are made available through the Nielsen VideoScan web site and the ACNielsen NITRO data delivery system. Some of the types of reports we have available:

Title Reports with sales for each title categorized nationally, regionally (by DMA) and by retail channel.
Sales History Reports providing week-by-week title sales since 1999 or release date (if later).
Summary Reports providing industry overviews comparing sales from previous years as well as weekly comparisons to the prior year.
Market Share Reports giving annual and weekly market shares by distributor/label.
Top 100 Charts for numerous categories rank the top titles by unit sales. Charts are available for the current week's sales or for cumulative year-to-date sales. Prior year-end charts are also available. Chart categories include distributors and selected genres.
While most of our clients choose annual subscriptions, we also work with customers on a project-by-project basis. We can handle everything from sophisticated marketing and sales research and planning to simple one title sales ad-hoc requests.

Nielsen VideoScan's VHS and DVD sales charts are currently published in Billboard, The Hollywood Reporter, Video Store Magazine, The Los Angeles Times, The New York Times and others.

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4247/hd7day10tk4.png

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/903/amazonplayerso8.png

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3054/dvdempirerq4.png

Can we PLEASE stop it. Everybody can find a couple of statistics (from selected, handpicked retailers) that favor his own best interest and agenda.

That's why there is Nielsen/Videoscan. It is universally accepted as the best, most complete source of sales data available today.

Posting DVDEmpire sales, Amazon sales ranks or the weekly sales numbers of the little DVD store right around the corner of mother's sweet little apartment is just looking for one or two statistics that YOU like.

That's why we have Nielsen. It was accepted by this part of the forum when HD-DVD was still in the lead. There are always BIG CHEERS when the gap closes somewhat. But when HD-DVD "has a bad week" (and in all honesty 74:26 is the second largest gap ever BUT it is still just ONE week with no major new releases) suddenly everybody looks for some nice DVDEmpire listings and sees a positive trend...

Excuse me very much, but this is a very unhealthy and pathetic combination of denial and despondency.


When talking about sales should be meaningful we need to agree on one SINGLE, best available data source. If anybody has a better suggestion than Nielsen/Videoscan please let us know.

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4247/hd7day10tk4.png

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/903/amazonplayerso8.png

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/3054/dvdempirerq4.png
You forgot one (Circuit City):
http://www.hddvd-blog.com/cc.gif

These are not one or two titles, it is the trend from the largest online retailer in the world. You're obsessing about a single week from Nielsen when HD-DVD didn't even release anything. Nielsen does not include Walmart. It is questionable if they include Amazon. No one really knows what they include.

However you absolutely believe it because it favors the format in your title:
Blu-ray Addict

Not a surprise.

Slow and steady wins the race. HD-DVD is continually gaining ground.

Do you even understand what the Videoscan numbers are? You do realize that the Nielsen/Videoscan numbers INCLUDE Amazon, not to mention most brick and mortar stores (i.e., Best Buy, Target, Circuit City, etc.), right?

You're going to see HD DVD mount an attack for the Holidays and put a lot of players into homes.

But there are two problems.

First, as everyone is aware right now, some retailers have gone Blu. Whether or not it was BDA money or a business decision about shelf space, the fact is that if a trend continues to develop, then what happens to the owners of the 1,000,000+ HD DVD players?

Second, Universal is the wild card. How committed are they to ride it out in 2008 and give HD DVD the chance to build momentum with that 1,000,000+players?

Do you even understand what the Videoscan numbers are? You do realize that the Nielsen/Videoscan numbers INCLUDE Amazon, not to mention most brick and mortar stores (i.e., Best Buy, Target, Circuit City, etc.), right?
They also include Resident Evil (in the top 10) which Amazon was giving away for free with a PS3 purchase!

I'll go with videoscan's numbers since it covers a broad spectrum of retail over a period of time...

I notice you "forgot" to include Nielsen's numbers from last week which happen to show things much closer for HD-DVD. Let me help you out with that. Looks close to 60/40 to me and I wouldn't call that a landslide.

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/5175/nielsenzr1.png

Good grief

I would be ashamed, if my fellow Europeans would NOT chose HD DVD. There was a "Herren-format" once before in Europe - and I hope this will NOT happen again with bluray claiming to be the herrenformat. And I hope that the people are NOT following bluray like some sheeps to the blu-slaughterhouse. The Europeans should have learned to see through deceit by now - they should NOT support bluray. HD DVD is the future.

Excuse me???

As a fellow European, you seem to have very little appreciation or sensitivity as to what you are talking about.

Comparing the Holocaust, the unthinkable slaughtering of more than 6 million people, to winning or losing a format war?

Ireland is all Blu.

HD DVD will come out with Green-Ray and Ireland will be theirs.

What is Nielsen/Videoscan? Why are their numbers reliable?

The recognized industry leader in analysis of the VHS and DVD Sell-Through Marketplace
Question: Who is the largest DVD retailer?
Answer: Walmart

Question: Does Nielsen include Walmart in their numbers?
Answer: No

Question: Who is the largest DVD retailer?
Answer: Walmart

Question: Does Nielsen include Walmart in their numbers?
Answer: No

Yes we all know this.

So you are telling us the larger the population of sampling the more reliable the data. You would be correct.

But then you are the same guy who posts sales trends from two online retailers and are arguing against someone who posted Videoscan numbers which include said online retailers, not to mention MOST other retailers EXCEPT Wal-Mart.

Which population sample do you think to be larger and therefore more accurate?

I really really don't get your argument here. Instead of telling the guy thanks for the BETTER numbers you are trying to spin all of this so you don't look too much like an idiot for posting Amazon trends against Nielsen which include Amazon anyway not to mention Best Buy, Circuit City, Target, etc.

The bottom line is Nielsen/Videoscan sales numbers are national, they include most retailers (INCLUDING the ones you were discussing), and we all know them to be the Gold Standard. There is no use in arguing with them because they are the largest, most far reaching, most accurate, BEST sales data we have.

A little info that i have - In my local Asda's (Walmart) they were selling a very limited selection of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD's for between £20 and £25...That has now disappeared and they have only been selling DVD's for the past 5 weeks...Point being that i don't see any major advertising anywhere and both formats are in my opinion doing badly in UK...It may take many years for either to make their mark by which time something better comes along.

why do i click on these threads?

Why do I start these threads? I should have just titled it "come watch fanboys bicker like school children"

sales take goes in sticky at top of forum.

larry