...someone can tell me the LONG TERM advantages of the format.

The usual arguments:

1. Blu ray is supported by more studios. Long term this means nothing. Whatever format wins the consumer, that is what ALL studios will eventually produce. Doesn't matter in the long term.

2. Blu ray has a larger disc capacity. Does anyone really believe that if HD DVD needs more space in the future they won't expand disc size? They have already demonstrated a 51gb disc. Again, long term this means nothing.

3. PCM audio. Dolby TrueHD is lossless as well. Lossless is lossless, by definition. HD DVD has no problem with TrueHD, in fact its a superior, more advanced codec.

What am I missing? 1080p? HD DVD has that. 1080p24fps? Announced and on the way.

Clearly, HD DVD can give me everything Blu ray can, and at a reduced cost NOW. What does Blu-ray have to offer?

...someone can tell me the LONG TERM advantages of the format.

The usual arguments:

1. Blu ray is supported by more studios. Long term this means nothing. Whatever format wins the consumer, that is what ALL studios will eventually produce. Doesn't matter in the long term.

2. Blu ray has a larger disc capacity. Does anyone really believe that if HD DVD needs more space in the future they won't expand disc size? They have already demonstrated a 51gb disc. Again, long term this means nothing.

All Toshiba has done is demonstrate 51GB discs in the lab. In the real world when it has to be backwards compatible with existing players it is a different story.



3. PCM audio. Dolby TrueHD is lossless as well. Lossless is lossless, by definition. HD DVD has no problem with TrueHD, in fact its a superior, more advanced codec.

What am I missing? 1080p? HD DVD has that. 1080p24fps? Announced and on the way.

Clearly, HD DVD can give me everything Blu ray can, and at a reduced cost NOW. What does Blu-ray have to offer?

Long term? Better interactive features with BD-J, higher bandwidth, scratch resistant coating.

I want to know more how the studios are going to use BD-J.

Will they use the VM to limit the number of times I can view a disc I purchased? Will they make me pay to see the extra's? Those are the kinds of thing that are keeping me away from BD now (along with the high $500+ price tag)

I want to know more how the studios are going to use BD-J.

Will they use the VM to limit the number of times I can view a disc I purchased? Will they make me pay to see the extra's? Those are the kinds of thing that are keeping me away from BD now (along with the high $500+ price tag)
Actually your scenario is more likely with HD DVD than Blu-ray since HD DVD mandates an internet connection.

Blu-ray discs can't be guaranteed to be able to "phone home" so the Blu-ray's have a tendency to need to be self-supporting without an external connection.

All Toshiba has done is demonstrate 51GB discs in the lab. In the real world when it has to be backwards compatible with existing players it is a different story.
Long term? Better interactive features with BD-J, higher bandwidth, scratch resistant coating.

What titles are better on BD-J? HD DVD already has Network access running. I think you mean to say better potential although I think you'd struggle to tell us exactly where BD-Java is going to excel over HDi.

Actually your scenario is more likely with HD DVD than Blu-ray since HD DVD mandates an internet connection.

Blu-ray discs can't be guaranteed to be able to "phone home" so the Blu-ray's have a tendency to need to be self-supporting without an external connection.

The network connection isn't mandated for movie playback.

The biggest thing you are missing is the end to the format war.

If HD DVD wins, then fine, I will certainly support it, as I gather you will. If Blu-ray wins, the same thing I suppose.

If you are asking "why do we have two very similar formats," that is a question that requires looking at the politics and economics of the industry. There should only be one format.

If you are asking "what is the case for Blu-ray", then let me give you two answers:

1. Overall and in the long term, the specs for Blu-ray are better and the prospects for extensibility are better. This has been argued ad nauseum here and elsewhere.
2. It looks like Blu-ray will win. Studios, CE vendors, and now retail are rallying around Blu-ray at an increasing pace.

It does however seem that you have already made up your mind. If so, treat yourself to an HD DVD player "at a reduced cost NOW" and I hope you enjoy yourself.

Actually your scenario is more likely with HD DVD than Blu-ray since HD DVD mandates an internet connection.

Blu-ray discs can't be guaranteed to be able to "phone home" so the Blu-ray's have a tendency to need to be self-supporting without an external connection.

Yeah, doesn't the Bandai Freedom disk require you to register on-line before giving access to some extra? It's virtually here for HD DVD.

Does the TL51 have increased bandwidth as well? The bandwidth is a bigger advantage than the actual disc size, though 50 is still a huge advantage over 30. 51 over 50 well that would be amusing.

Does the TL51 have increased bandwidth as well? The bandwidth is a bigger advantage than the actual disc size, though 50 is still a huge advantage over 30. 51 over 50 well that would be amusing.


Yup...TL51 has 1.21 Jiggawatts of bandwidth. It's an amazing thing.

The network connection isn't mandated for movie playback.
Ok, you got my attention. What is the network connection for?

Ok, you got my attention. What is the network connection for?

Online content if the disc supports, firmware update and connection to local networks using standard protocols.

If you never hook up your player to a network all your movies will continue to play.

will a BD+ player ever be able to automatically update your firmware. For example, Sony places a firmware file on a BD movie and the VM that is loaded check for model / firmware and automatically updates the firmware without the user's knowledge until it is too late?

These are the kinds of things that seem possible (even if not right away) that really scare me. With HD DVD you simply don't hook up the Ethernet and no upgrade.

Yup...TL51 ha 1.21 Jiggawatts of bandwidth. It's an amazing thing.

A good chuckle can be a nice deviation when there is no answer. Keeps the spirit lively :)

What titles are better on BD-J? HD DVD already has Network access running. I think you mean to say better potential although I think you'd struggle to tell us exactly where BD-Java is going to excel over HDi.

The OP asked about long term advantages, so yeah, BD-J has more potential.

Scratch resistant discs

...someone can tell me the LONG TERM advantages of the format.

The usual arguments:

1. Blu ray is supported by more studios. Long term this means nothing. Whatever format wins the consumer, that is what ALL studios will eventually produce. Doesn't matter in the long term.

2. Blu ray has a larger disc capacity. Does anyone really believe that if HD DVD needs more space in the future they won't expand disc size? They have already demonstrated a 51gb disc. Again, long term this means nothing.

3. PCM audio. Dolby TrueHD is lossless as well. Lossless is lossless, by definition. HD DVD has no problem with TrueHD, in fact its a superior, more advanced codec.

What am I missing? 1080p? HD DVD has that. 1080p24fps? Announced and on the way.

Clearly, HD DVD can give me everything Blu ray can, and at a reduced cost NOW. What does Blu-ray have to offer?

BD-J 2nd stream PIP window is in HD. HD DVD's is not. That might be interesting although the window is so small, who knows.

will a BD+ player ever be able to automatically update your firmware. For example, Sony places a firmware file on a BD movie and the VM that is loaded check for model / firmware and automatically updates the firmware without the user's knowledge until it is too late?

These are the kinds of things that seem possible (even if not right away) that really scare me. With HD DVD you simply don't hook up the Ethernet and no upgrade.


BD+ represents wonderful technology. Let me repeat that. BD+ represents wonderful technology. This is most odd coming from a DRM hater such as myself.

The problem with DRM from my standpoint is that it frequently denies tasks that we've always done (copies/backups etc). Many governments worldwide have done a good job of enacting strong copyright and protection laws but many have done little to craft out a new modern framework for consumers.

DRM must work within a framework of consumer Fair Use rights or it will simply grow out of control and become draconian.

BD+ is the right product (potentially) at the wrong time because consumers need to know their rights BEFORE the DRM begins to get as sophisticated as BD+.

We must strike a balance between privacy and protection. I think Blu-ray encroaches a bit too much on the privacy part.

I'd feel better about Blu-ray,

1) If it were region-free

2) If BD+ was scrapped

3) If scratch-coat wasn't needed.

4) If it simply cost less (the first possible hope)

Actually your scenario is more likely with HD DVD than Blu-ray since HD DVD mandates an internet connection.

Blu-ray discs can't be guaranteed to be able to "phone home" so the Blu-ray's have a tendency to need to be self-supporting without an external connection.

All players after November have to have ethernet I believe.

I'd feel better about Blu-ray,

1) If it were region-free

2) If BD+ was scrapped

3) If scratch-coat wasn't needed.

4) If it simply cost less (the first possible hope)
buy dvd and an upconverter. no hd for you. both formats will eventually go that direction in a matter of time. once they tighten down the specs it'll affordable but nothings for free.

What an odd post from the OP. First, the LONG TERM concept is used to nullify any advantages because, in the future, anything can happen. Then the OP says that HDDVD has everything BD has NOW. Well no it doesn't. It doesn't have the bandwidth and capacity of BD. Those are critical. You can't just add them and expect current players to read the format. BD has that NOW, so there is no need for HDDVD.

Ok, you got my attention. What is the network connection for?

Do you want additional subtitles for a certain film, for some reason?
Download it. :)

Would you like to watch the additional extras presently available on the new edition of a title you bought five years ago?
No need to buy the same title again. :)
Download the new extras. :)

Wanna check something awesome and exclusive online about the movie you just watched and loved?
Do it! :)

Wanna buy the soundtrack? The comic book the film was adapted from? The poster?
Do it! :)

Should I go on?

There's a new codec even better than the ones currently supported.
No need to buy another player, wait weeks for the update to arrive by mail or (if available) burn a cd online. :)
Your HD DVD player does it all. :)

Scratch resistant discs

Since when was that ever an obstacle on the way of CDs and DVDs? What are you planning to do with your discs?

I never lost one DVD in my live due to scratches.

Do you want additional subtitles for a certain film, for some reason?
Download it. :)

How about swahili or ebonics?


Wanna buy the soundtrack? The comic book the film was adapted from? The poster?
Do it! :)

I do that now on my PC at places like Amazon ;) Hans Zimmer and Danny Elfman FTW :D

All Toshiba has done is demonstrate 51GB discs in the lab. In the real world when it has to be backwards compatible with existing players it is a different story.


This is a compatibility problem that may or may not arrive in the future IF TL51 ever gets to be really necessary.

But right now, Blu-ray is already having compatibility problems TODAY for not being able to play a simple game in all players. When it comes incompatibility issues, that is the only department where blu-ray is ahead of HD DVD - in the worst sense. :D

How about swahili or ebonics?

I knew you were gonna shot that! :p
No, I was thinking of French, Spanish, German or Italian (I assume you DO know there are other languages besides English that are spoken by millions in America - not to mention in Europe).

I do that now on my PC at places like Amazon ;) Hans Zimmer and Danny Elfman FTW :D

At your PC? Me too... until HD DVDS allows me to do that without leaving the sofa.
And maybe at a better price, since I already bought the movie. :cool:

Wanna try your luck again?

...someone can tell me the LONG TERM advantages of the format.

The usual arguments:

1. Blu ray is supported by more studios. Long term this means nothing. Whatever format wins the consumer, that is what ALL studios will eventually produce. Doesn't matter in the long term.

2. Blu ray has a larger disc capacity. Does anyone really believe that if HD DVD needs more space in the future they won't expand disc size? They have already demonstrated a 51gb disc. Again, long term this means nothing.

3. PCM audio. Dolby TrueHD is lossless as well. Lossless is lossless, by definition. HD DVD has no problem with TrueHD, in fact its a superior, more advanced codec.

What am I missing? 1080p? HD DVD has that. 1080p24fps? Announced and on the way.

Clearly, HD DVD can give me everything Blu ray can, and at a reduced cost NOW. What does Blu-ray have to offer?

Long term advantage, you'll still be able to buy BD discs in 5 years.

Long term advantage, you'll still be able to buy BD discs in 5 years.

Or in 6 years if you love collecting antique glass coasters. :D

All Toshiba has done is demonstrate 51GB discs in the lab. In the real world when it has to be backwards compatible with existing players it is a different story.




Long term? Better interactive features with BD-J, higher bandwidth, scratch resistant coating.

So Toshiba's higher capacity HD DVD's don't matter because they're in the lab... but BD-J counts because it is... also in the lab? You can't have it both ways, Blu-Ray is severely lagging behind HD DVD in interactive features.

Or in 6 years if you love collecting antique glass coasters. :D

Agreed, I am actually impressed with the scratch resistant coating. I've had countless beers sit on Training Day Blu-Ray Disc and it still hasn't scratched!

What an odd post from the OP. First, the LONG TERM concept is used to nullify any advantages because, in the future, anything can happen. Then the OP says that HDDVD has everything BD has NOW. Well no it doesn't. It doesn't have the bandwidth and capacity of BD. Those are critical. You can't just add them and expect current players to read the format. BD has that NOW, so there is no need for HDDVD.

Long term can nullify disadvantage as well so I don't think he's trying to get one by you here.

You mention that bandwidth and storage space are critical yet to my knowledge I know of no compromised discs for HD DVD. If these advantages are indeed critical surely you can point out where I, as a HD DVD owner, am getting the shaft.

Storage and bandwidth are a function of the pit sizes and the disc spin speed. We already know 17GB per layer discs are being tested at up to 3 layers. The disc spin speed is the same I believe.

...someone can tell me the LONG TERM advantages of the format.

The usual arguments:

1. Blu ray is supported by more studios. Long term this means nothing. Whatever format wins the consumer, that is what ALL studios will eventually produce. Doesn't matter in the long term.

2. Blu ray has a larger disc capacity. Does anyone really believe that if HD DVD needs more space in the future they won't expand disc size? They have already demonstrated a 51gb disc. Again, long term this means nothing.

3. PCM audio. Dolby TrueHD is lossless as well. Lossless is lossless, by definition. HD DVD has no problem with TrueHD, in fact its a superior, more advanced codec.

What am I missing? 1080p? HD DVD has that. 1080p24fps? Announced and on the way.

Clearly, HD DVD can give me everything Blu ray can, and at a reduced cost NOW. What does Blu-ray have to offer?


I will bite
1) Studio support does matter. People are buying more BD movies than HD-DVD. If studios dont support your format and your format is losing.... soon you are likely to have less support... If your format was making a killing with less studio support, then you could say it doesnt matter.

For BD... no matter what happens, Sony will release BD movies until the PS4 appears

2) 51 triple layer HD-DVD would be good... but if people with 1G players cant play those discs at all... then HD-DVD cannot release them.

3) 1080p24.... if that matters to you... is done properly on the Sony BDP-S300 and the PS3. IE 1080p24 on the disc is sent to the TV. This is how I understand the transistions... correct me if this has changed.

BD output transistions
BD Disc -> 1080p24 -> convert to 1080p60-> out to TV-> 1080p60
BD Disc -> 1080p24 -> out to TV ->1080p24

HD DVD HD-A20/XA2
HD Disc -> 1080p24 -> convert to 1080i60 -> Deinterlace -> 1080p60
HD Disc -> 1080p24 -> ???? -> 1080p24 rumor thats been going on for a while

IMO, if you want to jump into HD-DVD to save money... go for it. It sounds like you have already convinced yourself. However, when #1 comes back to bite you, dont say you were not warned.

I'll feel much better about Blu-ray when...

I don't have to read numerous threads a day that start out with "gotcha!" type titles baiting you to read them.

I'll feel a lot better about blu-ray when their fanboy supporters can STAY IN THEIR OWN FRICKING FORUMS INSTEAD OF THREAD JACKING EVERY DAMN FORUM on this site. Sheeeesh!

I will bite

BD output transistions
BD Disc -> 1080p24 -> convert to 1080p60-> out to TV-> 1080p60
BD Disc -> 1080p24 -> out to TV ->1080p24

HD DVD HD-A20/XA2
HD Disc -> 1080p24 -> convert to 1080i60 -> Deinterlace -> 1080p60
HD Disc -> 1080p24 -> ???? -> 1080p24 rumor thats been going on for a while



Nice on paper, but the eyes have the final say. If you can't see a difference on the screen who cares. If you don't have a 1080p TV, then really who cares.

Originally Posted by Timothy Ramzyk
I'd feel better about Blu-ray,

1) If it were region-free

2) If BD+ was scrapped

3) If scratch-coat wasn't needed.

4) If it simply cost less (the first possible hope)

buy dvd and an upconverter. no hd for you. both formats will eventually go that direction in a matter of time. once they tighten down the specs it'll affordable but nothings for free.

I've been hearing that since day one and still no region-encoding on HD DVD. Actually, European DVDs are much less-likely to be encoded (even if they claim to be) compared to US releases.

Studios may want it, but that doesn't mean it isn't stupid and obtrusive. With HD we have the chance at a truly "global" movie format, and you BD bunnies sluff it off as if it were of no consequence. Good for you if limitations are your thing.

I'll feel a lot better about blu-ray when their fanboy supporters can STAY IN THEIR OWN FRICKING FORUMS INSTEAD OF THREAD JACKING EVERY DAMN FORUM on this site. Sheeeesh!

Hehehe perhaps we should organize a mass invasion and return the favor.



Nah. Most HD DVD owners are above that stuff and there are a good many who I enjoy reading their thoughts.

I'll feel much better about Blu-ray when the hubris stops and the execution begins. It's clearly a half baked format that hit the market with enough flashes of brilliance to woo the specwhores.

Sony may have made the master stroke however. Let's say HD DVD continues a steady ascent in and eventually studios have to capitulate and move towards neutrality. Well by then Sony will have fillibustered enough to finally deliver hardware that is spec for spec as good or superior to HD DVD.

This war is going to have many changing faces.

I'll feel a lot better about blu-ray when their fanboy supporters can STAY IN THEIR OWN FRICKING FORUMS INSTEAD OF THREAD JACKING EVERY DAMN FORUM on this site. Sheeeesh!

Interesting SO when did the HDTV Software Media Discussion become "your" forum?

Do you want additional subtitles for a certain film, for some reason?
Download it. :)


Even assuming you were stupid enough to buy a disc with the wrong subtitles, or you had a relative from Africa staying over who suddenly wanted to watch that one movie in Swahili, what do you think the chances are studios will have "extra subtitles" for download for every film? Why wouldn't they simply put them on disc in the first place - you're talking, maybe a couple of hundred K of text? For that you need an Ethernet port?


Would you like to watch the additional extras presently available on the new edition of a title you bought five years ago?
No need to buy the same title again. :)
Download the new extras. :)


Onto what? Is it supposed to stream the new content?


Wanna check something awesome and exclusive online about the movie you just watched and loved?
Do it! :)

Wanna buy the soundtrack? The comic book the film was adapted from? The poster?
Do it! :)


Why wouldn't I just fire up the computer and go to IMDB? Or go to Amazon or any one of a million web sites? I don't need my HD player to turn into some half-baked web browser.


Should I go on?

No.

You mention that bandwidth and storage space are critical yet to my knowledge I know of no compromised discs for HD DVD. If these advantages are indeed critical surely you can point out where I, as a HD DVD owner, am getting the shaft. Xbox 360 owners said the same thing about Microsoft's decision to use DVD for all games. They said there were no games over 9GB and therefore the PS3s use of BD was pointless.

Then Blue Dragon came out, spread across 4 DVDs.

After only a year, I'm not surprised HD-DVD is still getting by while scraping the limit. However I doubt it will last.

Xbox 360 owners said the same thing about Microsoft's decision to use DVD for all games. They said there were no games over 9GB and therefore the PS3s use of BD was pointless.

Then Blue Dragon came out, spread across 4 DVDs.

After only a year, I'm not surprised HD-DVD is still getting by while scraping the limit. However I doubt it will last.

Bluu Dragon is the exception not the norm. It probably uses FMV for cutscenes that could of been rendered, which is why games in the FF series spanned multiple discs. BTW Blue Dragon's on 3 DVDs

Interesting SO when did the HDTV Software Media Discussion become "your" forum?

:D

Since when was that ever an obstacle on the way of CDs and DVDs? What are you planning to do with your discs?

I never lost one DVD in my live due to scratches.

Nor have I, but I have had major playback issues with scratched HD DVDs.
High-density discs are just more sensitive to playback issues than DVDs or CDs when it comes to scratches.

Blu-Ray solved the problem that HD DVD didn't.

Why wouldn't I just fire up the computer and go to IMDB? Or go to Amazon or any one of a million web sites? I don't need my HD player to turn into some half-baked web browser.


Every time I finish to see a movie with my friends I go to my room, switch on the computer, boot up Windows (slow as hell), load firefox, browse imdb and search for the movie director bio, filmography, actor bio, and so on. All this takes 10-15 minutes before I can even see the data I was searching for.

Doing this on my FullHD in the living room, sitting there with my friends, and clicking on the remote to automatically search imdb for all the info about the movie and display it in a readable format... well, that will be a GREAT improvement of the experience. I cannot imagine how somebody can dismiss this as useless.

Bluu Dragon is the exception not the norm. It probably uses FMV for cutscenes that could of been rendered, which is why games in the FF series spanned multiple discs. BTW Blue Dragon's on 3 DVDsOh, well then that changes everything.

Meanwhile, in the world of BD, it would've fit on one disc with or without FMV.

The irony is, if HD-DVD and Blu-ray switched places right now, the HD-DVD supporters would claim victory.

Despite the fact that both formats haven't received mass support yet, why is it so hard to believe that Blu-ray is sitting pretty now?

HDDVD advantages from users perspective:
1. Better Interactive support out of box (backwards compatibility)
2. Ethernet connection - interactive features/firmware upgrades
3. Region Free
4. No advanced DRM
5. Cheaper players
6. Combo discs

BluRay advantages from users perspective:
1. More space on the disk (allows for more content/better quality plus superior data storage on pc - not counting a lab experiment for 51gb hddvd..)
2. Higher bandwidth (allows for better quality theoretically)
3. Scratch Resistant Coating
4. 1.1 profile has superior pip (hd)

HDDVD advantages from Studio/CE/Retail perspective:
1. Cheaper manufacturing facilities
2. Lower cost of discs
3. Better support to indie/small studios?
4. Ethernet connection - could potentially be used for control purposes

BluRay advantages from Studio/CE/Retail perspective:
1. Region encoding (some studios prefer to have option)
2. Advanced DRM (most studios would prefer to have option)
3. Higher chance of survival due to larger Studio support
4. Higher chance of survival due to larger CE/ support
5. Higher chance of survival due to larger Retail support

Let me know if I missed anything

I would have either gone Blu initially or maybe have supported both if they would just give me a player that wasnt $500++ dollars and had completed specifications and forward support.

Thats all.

:rolleyes:

The irony is, if HD-DVD and Blu-ray switched places right now, the HD-DVD supporters would claim victory.

Despite the fact that both formats haven't received mass support yet, why is it so hard to believe that Blu-ray is sitting pretty now?

Sitting pretty? Only in this forum on these message boards would it be considered to be "sitting pretty"

The rest of the world barely knows it exists, or doesn't want it if they do.

Could Blu-Ray exist if it were lower than HD DVD in sales?
No, because it costs more and currently offers less features and flexibility to the consumer.

I'll feel a lot better about blu-ray when their fanboy supporters can STAY IN THEIR OWN FRICKING FORUMS INSTEAD OF THREAD JACKING EVERY DAMN FORUM on this site. Sheeeesh!


Hey fool, this is the HDTV Software Media Discussion forum, I didn't hijack anything!! Gee wiz.

Lets see, so far I've got people reiterating the studio support. Umm, LONG TERM!!! We are all supposed to jump on a standard as soon as anyone supports it and never consider alternatives? You are missing the point. We need to decide on a format, then get the studios behind it, not let the studios decide on formats for us.

Bandwidth? How has that affected HD DVD? How will it affect HD DVD in the future? Could HD DVD support higher bandwidth?

Look, I understand that Blu ray has probably won this thing. Was in BJ's today and they finally had a HDM player - Sony Blu ray. Still no discs, but no HD DVD players either. We are going to be stuck with blu, like it or not. For me, it just means I will have to wait much longer before I can get a player. $400 - $500 is not in my range with two teenagers coming up on their college years. With a couple of $100 gift cards from netwinner to walmart I could have gotten a HD DVD player by Christmas...

Long term advantage?


It will be here in the long term? That's my favorite.

HDDVD advantages from users perspective:
1. Better Interactive support out of box (backwards compatibility)
2. Ethernet connection - interactive features/firmware upgrades
3. Region Free
4. No advanced DRM
5. Cheaper players
6. Combo discs

BluRay advantages from users perspective:
1. More space on the disk (allows for more content/better quality plus superior data storage on pc - not counting a lab experiment for 51gb hddvd..)
2. Higher bandwidth (allows for better quality theoretically)
3. Scratch Resistant Coating
4. 1.1 profile has superior pip (hd)

HDDVD advantages from Studio/CE/Retail perspective:
1. Cheaper manufacturing facilities
2. Lower cost of discs
3. Better support to indie/small studios?
4. Ethernet connection - could potentially be used for control purposes

BluRay advantages from Studio/CE/Retail perspective:
1. Region encoding (some studios prefer to have option)
2. Advanced DRM (most studios would prefer to have option)
3. Higher chance of survival due to larger Studio support
4. Higher chance of survival due to larger CE/ support
5. Higher chance of survival due to larger Retail support

Let me know if I missed anything


Thank you Tomes. Now THAT was a well researched and rather unbiased evaluation of the format pros and cons.

I would however, add that Blu-ray will have ethernet support in the near future via BD-Live (might be in the 1.1 spec). I think awhile ago I heard Sony mentioning plans for the Spider-man discs. Also, I would remove "backward compatibility" from the HD-DVD pros, as Blu-Ray players are just as backwardly compatible with DVDs, and both sides have done a fantastic job at upscaling.

I also like how you added a question mark to the "better indie/small studio support" part for HD-DVD. Blu-ray is doing just fine on that front as well, with Lionsgate, Starz / Anchor Bay, Funimation, Tartan, Razor Digital (imax), Sony Pictures Classics, and Fox Searchlight (i know i know, but i think they'll start up again eventually), which I think does an OK job comparing to HD-DVD's Focus / Rogue, First Look, and Weinstein Co. / Dragon Dynasty (which I anticipate neutrality soon due to their lack of announcements post-Blockbuster news). Both formats also carry support from Magnolia, BCI, Digital Leisure, Koch, and Bandai.

I own both formats, but I support Blu-ray fully, as I really think that at this point, its the only format that stands a chance at mainstream success before this war makes them both extinct. And I know a lot of people love this format war and how it drives down hardware prices, but I could care less. I have my players already, and the only way that SOFTWARE prices are going to go down and BIG catalogue titles are going to be released (LOTR, Star Wars, Speilberg flicks) is if one format stop being niche and goes mainstream, which will never happen if a consumer is confused about which format to trust. In the end, while HD-DVD has great hardware prices, it's truly the software (price and content) that's going to make or break a format. Sorry, but J6P will NOT pay 30 bucks for all of this movies. I think the hardware lead (whether every ps3 is being used for BDs is inconsequential, as software sales prove that enough of them are to more than counterbalance the HD-DVD dedicated player lead), trend of at least 2:1 software sales, future of ps3 (which is starting to gain speed), far superior studio support, greater technical specs in the near future, and new retailer/rental exclusivity are more than enough to make it obvious who's winning this war.

BluRay advantages from users perspective:
...
4. 1.1 profile has superior pip (hd)
...
Let me know if I missed anythingPaidgeek has given us new info in the Insider's forum that PiP is only mandated to be SD for profile 1.1. HD PiP is an option for BD as it is also for HD DVD.

Yeah, doesn't the Bandai Freedom disk require you to register on-line before giving access to some extra? It's virtually here for HD DVD.

That is correct. You have to register to unlock the 7 minute documentary, and you must have an active connection to view the online content from Bandai Visual for Freedom Vol.1 HD DVD.


All players after November have to have ethernet I believe.
Negative. Blu-ray players do not mandate an ethernet port. Ethernet connections are only required with the Blu-ray Profile 2.0, which has no set implementation date. In addition, Blu-ray Profile 2.0 is an optional, not mandatory, feature, so any manufacturer can decline to implement it in their players even after that part of the spec goes live.

Thank you Tomes. Now THAT was a well researched and rather unbiased evaluation of the format pros and cons.

I agree - good post

I would however, add that Blu-ray will have ethernet support in the near future via BD-Live (might be in the 1.1 spec). I think awhile ago I heard Sony mentioning plans for the Spider-man discs. Also, I would remove "backward compatibility" from the HD-DVD pros, as Blu-Ray players are just as backwardly compatible with DVDs, and both sides have done a fantastic job at upscaling.

1.BD Live (profile 2.0) requires 1 GB of storage. Any BRD SAL's have this? Does the PS3 have this?

2. The Sony S300 has NO Ethernet port. The one that is going to be sold at Target starting in October

3. HD DVD IS backwards compatible - we have the Combo and Twin Format discs. BRD has nothing like this. Movie on the disc will play in 210 million DVD players (any kind - home, PC or car) and an HD DVD player.

4. Samsung has announced 3 new BRD players for 2007 - 1400, 2400 and 5000 DF - none of them are 1.1 compliant. According to PC World - Samsung will not release a 1.1 compliant player until 2008 (no time or Q given) The only CEM that says they will have a 1.1 compliant player is Denon - for $2000.

5. Up Scaling - yep totally agree - amazing what you can get from 720x480

I agree - good post
1.BD Live (profile 2.0) requires 1 GB of storage. Any BRD SAL's have this? Does the PS3 have this?

The PS3 has 20 to 60 GB of storage.

Paidgeek has given us new info in the Insider's forum that PiP is only mandated to be SD for profile 1.1. HD PiP is an option for BD as it is also for HD DVD.

+1

Very important info, that shouldn't be missed.

Do you want additional subtitles for a certain film, for some reason?
Download it. :)

Even assuming you were stupid enough to buy a disc with the wrong subtitles, or you had a relative from Africa staying over who suddenly wanted to watch that one movie in Swahili, what do you think the chances are studios will have "extra subtitles" for download for every film? Why wouldn't they simply put them on disc in the first place - you're talking, maybe a couple of hundred K of text? For that you need an Ethernet port?


LOL... your example is laughable.
I already answered this question... but never mind. I'll answer it again.

Do you know therer are millions of people in America who speak French, German, Spanish or Portuguese? Keep your Swahili example, because I'm thinking about better examples.

Are you implying that people do not get the subtitles they want because they are stupid?

Is this the best you can do or say?

People don't get the subtitle because in most of the times they are not there. This is a major issue if you consider that not every title is available in America. And plus: not even every title available in America has English subtitles, do you know that?
Or are you going to tell me that YOU (wonderful YOU) don't have this problem because all the films YOU (wonderful YOU) have all have English subtitles?

Don't bother to tell me that Sony puts ten languages in their discs because that means nothing. The world is not made of companies like Sony. Even Anchor Bay does not put English subtitles in many of their releases.

Blu-ray will not change that.
HD DVD will not change that.

What HD DVD will change is the ability (for studios) to introduce new elements (like subtitles) in discs already released. IF NECESSARY.
What HD DVD will change is the ability (for consumers) to better match the discs with their personal needs WITHOUT having to buy a new disc. This is a very important matter if you think of so many hearing impaired people.

I know what YOU (wonderful YOU) will say: "I'll sell my old disc on ebay, thank you!" :p Oh, but why go through even THAT trouble? :p

Me and You (wonderful you) are two people. The world is a lot more than that.

Keep you Swahili exaggeration to someone else.


Would you like to watch the additional extras presently available on the new edition of a title you bought five years ago? :)
No need to buy the same title again. :)
Download the new extras.

Onto what? Is it supposed to stream the new content?



I wasn't thinking about streaming... but I'm not sure if streaming is possible right now. But if it's possible, why not? :)

Actually, I was more thinking about larger storage capacity (storage capacity is mandatory for HD DVD, do you know?). Do you know there is an HD DVD model in Japan who comes with a 500Gb size disc? Instead of checking (in the future) for what features does your BD player have or not, why not go to HD DVD where it is just a matter of "how much it has", since having is already mandatory.

This is the perfect example of getting the best of two worlds. And it's happening right now.


Wanna check something awesome and exclusive online about the movie you just watched and loved?
Do it! :)

Wanna buy the soundtrack? The comic book the film was adapted from? The poster?
Do it! :)

Why wouldn't I just fire up the computer and go to IMDB? Or go to Amazon or any one of a million web sites? I don't need my HD player to turn into some half-baked web browser.



Did I ever said you could browse at Amazon or check out internet porn on some shabby website? No.

I said you can take the advantage of finding certain products available in certain places designed for you. If in the end it actually belongs to Amazon, that's secondary. The important thing is, you may even get a discount at certain products since you already bought the HD DVD. :) Isn't that good?

And you do all this conveniently seated at your sofa. Just like watching TV. I'm sure, those who already experienced things like video on demand and other advanced benefits from digital chanels (Comcast anyone?) will realize this HD DVD advantage.

Oh, you don't need to turn your HD player into a half-baked web browser?

Is that what you think HD DVD has for you? Boy, you must be frozen in 1999.

Sorry, but you should rethink your argumentation. :p

HDDVD advantages from users perspective:
1. Better Interactive support out of box (backwards compatibility)
2. Ethernet connection - interactive features/firmware upgrades
3. Region Free
4. No advanced DRM
5. Cheaper players
6. Combo discs

All true.


BluRay advantages from users perspective:
1. More space on the disk (allows for more content/better quality plus superior data storage on pc - not counting a lab experiment for 51gb hddvd..)
2. Higher bandwidth (allows for better quality theoretically)
3. Scratch Resistant Coating
4. 1.1 profile has superior pip (hd)

More space=better quality is highly debatable.
More space=more content is highly debatable. I personally doubt this is that important since two-disc editions are so deep into consumer's tastes.
But that's me.
Higher bandwidth=more quality is highly debatable because, as you say, it is all "theoretical"
1.1 superior Pip? Strange... lot's of people on the Blu-ray camp (when pressed against HD DVD's interactivity) swear upon the lives of their parents not to care one bit about those things... :D

For simple computer data storage, you are absolutely right! 50 is 50. Fill it up if you need. :)


HDDVD advantages from Studio/CE/Retail perspective:
1. Cheaper manufacturing facilities
2. Lower cost of discs
3. Better support to indie/small studios?
4. Ethernet connection - could potentially be used for control purposes

I don't think indie support is that important.


BluRay advantages from Studio/CE/Retail perspective:
1. Region encoding (some studios prefer to have option)
2. Advanced DRM (most studios would prefer to have option)
3. Higher chance of survival due to larger Studio support
4. Higher chance of survival due to larger CE/ support
5. Higher chance of survival due to larger Retail support

The higher chance of survival is also highly debatable. If HD DVD wins, do you have any doubt it will have full support of everybody?

Is there any "market self destruct" button available to the BDA if they fail? :D

Nor have I, but I have had major playback issues with scratched HD DVDs.
High-density discs are just more sensitive to playback issues than DVDs or CDs when it comes to scratches.

Blu-Ray solved the problem that HD DVD didn't.

I'd say you are careless about your HD DVDs for some reason, since we have heard very few complaints from customers so far.

Still, if any organization (besides the BDA or those Sony fake-independent websites, of course) cares to share any research, it would be welcome. :)

We all would love to know if scratching is a real issue.

Sony may have made the master stroke however. Let's say HD DVD continues a steady ascent in and eventually studios have to capitulate and move towards neutrality. Well by then Sony will have fillibustered enough to finally deliver hardware that is spec for spec as good or superior to HD DVD.

This is, of course, at the heart of the matter. The bad launch, many broken promises, massive hardware delays, humongous PR machinery, etc. etc. were all part of the "filibuster" as you call it. Keep making promises (remember 6 million PS3's by March 2007?) that can't be met, but keep everyone hanging. Yes, Blu-ray will eventually have everything HD DVD has, and maybe even a little more. But it''s the means to the end. I, and many others I believe, do NOT feel that cynicism, deceit, and anti-consumer behavior of this magnitude should be rewarded with a victory. But if Blu-ray wins, so be it.

Scratch resistant discs
IF scratch resistance would seem important for HD DVD they will use it. Isn't the owner (TDK) of the best scratch resistance tech - Durabis now owned by Verbatim who makes discs for both formats. So if eg. rental HD DVD discs would need the coating they will get it in the short or long term.

Thanks for all the feedback guys. I'm a bit busy today, but will update the list based on your feedback ASAP, and try to keep the list as neutral as possible. For that reason, I am not putting any weight on certain items being more important than others, etc.

I don't think indie support is that important.


Indie support also means better adult film support for the HD-DVD camp. It's not the 80's, but support from the adult film industry is still important.

I'd say you are careless about your HD DVDs for some reason, since we have heard very few complaints from customers so far.

Still, if any organization (besides the BDA or those Sony fake-independent websites, of course) cares to share any research, it would be welcome. :)

We all would love to know if scratching is a real issue.

I am very careful with my discs, most are pristine.
Check the Netflix threads, you'll get all the responses you need.

...someone can tell me the LONG TERM advantages of the format.

The usual arguments:

1. Blu ray is supported by more studios. Long term this means nothing. Whatever format wins the consumer, that is what ALL studios will eventually produce. Doesn't matter in the long term.

This is a short term advantage. Yes, whatever format wins would most likely be supported by all formats regardless of what happens.


2. Blu ray has a larger disc capacity. Does anyone really believe that if HD DVD needs more space in the future they won't expand disc size? They have already demonstrated a 51gb disc. Again, long term this means nothing.


Well the way that disc size is increased on HDDVD is by adding layers. There's nothing saying bluray can't do the same thing. As far as the boost from 15gb to 17 gb, there's some talk (fud?) that it may make existing players unable to play the new discs but I've seen nothing to suggest that's any more true than existing BD players can't play 75gb+ Bluray discs in the forseeable future.

Until HDDVD develops a "high density" disc format that exceeds 25gb per layer, bluray will probably always have a capacity advantage, and if this HDDVD advantage breaks compatibility with older players, it will hinder adoption.


3. PCM audio. Dolby TrueHD is lossless as well. Lossless is lossless, by definition. HD DVD has no problem with TrueHD, in fact its a superior, more advanced codec.

What am I missing? 1080p? HD DVD has that. 1080p24fps? Announced and on the way.

Clearly, HD DVD can give me everything Blu ray can, and at a reduced cost NOW. What does Blu-ray have to offer?

From a technical perspective, bluray's specs are superior to hd-dvds (but does it matter?). Right now the format has a studio advantage that doesn't really need to be repeated. I think the 2 formats are similar enough that much of the bickering of the 2 formats is utterly asinine and it's a shame the BDA and DVD consortiums could not iron out their differences before releasing their products. Shame on BDA members who failed to stop HD-DVD from being ratified as the next gen format, and shame on them for being members in a worthless organization when they were going to shun that entity's decision & do nothing to prevent its adoption.

In the meantime, I'm hoping dual players get cheaper and more common.

regarding the scratchproofness of bluray, why couldnt HD-DVD adopt that on their discs?

I am very careful with my discs, most are pristine.
Check the Netflix threads, you'll get all the responses you need.

Ron, only my personal experierence, and I rent both BD and HD DVD disc from Netflix. One, only one bad HD DVD disc in over a year. I get a movie once per week. I need to add I got a bad BD in that year as well.

Sweet Jesus in a flaky crust, so many wrong assumptions and ideas. Let's do these in order:

1. Blu ray is supported by more studios. Long term this means nothing. Whatever format wins the consumer, that is what ALL studios will eventually produce. Doesn't matter in the long term.
Studio support is pretty damn important in the short term, and the effect that has is long term in nature.

2. Blu ray has a larger disc capacity. Does anyone really believe that if HD DVD needs more space in the future they won't expand disc size? They have already demonstrated a 51gb disc. Again, long term this means nothing.
They can't do that, actually. It's highly unlikely older players would be compatible with the new, larger disc format. That's the #1 way to alienate your customer base.

I will go out on a limb and say that unless 51 GB is ratified and mandated in players for release by Christmas of this year, it'll never happen. Changing the format after this year would be a major mistake and a big setback for any studio that tried to release software to it.

3. PCM audio. Dolby TrueHD is lossless as well. Lossless is lossless, by definition. HD DVD has no problem with TrueHD, in fact its a superior, more advanced codec.
I agree, but Blu-ray Disc also supports Dolby TrueHD (and both also support DTS HD Master Audio). Long term, more studios will gravitate towards Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA and move away from PCM tracks entirely.

What am I missing? 1080p? HD DVD has that. 1080p24fps? Announced and on the way.

Clearly, HD DVD can give me everything Blu ray can, and at a reduced cost NOW. What does Blu-ray have to offer?
The critical problem with HD DVD is the lack of capacity and the lack of bandwidth. These are things that are nearly impossible for HD DVD to fix without alienating large portions of their customers. As for price, the only thing more expensive about BD is the playback device, and that's barely an issue. On the software side, Blu-ray Disc releases are usually cheaper than HD DVD releases (with combos costing more than the identical BD releases).

Basically, my support of BD is entirely on the technical merits. I'm not a Sony fanboi, and I'm certainly not a Microsoft hater (I've written software for their OS's from MS-DOS 5 up to Windows Vista), I just appreciate that BD offers more, long term, than HD DVD does (or even can). Is iHD/HDi interesting and cool? Sure, but it doesn't really affect the main features presentation, and that's all I care about (is there more than enough room for audio/video encodes to breathe?).

Anyways, consider the long term ideas I've mentioned above, especially in so far as disc capacity and bandwidth are concerned. These aren't things HD DVD can fix, and they are very clear and distinct advantages for Blu-ray Disc that you shouldn't overlook.

The critical problem with HD DVD is the lack of capacity and the lack of bandwidth. Anyways, consider the long term ideas I've mentioned above, especially in so far as disc capacity and bandwidth are concerned. These aren't things HD DVD can fix, and they are very clear and distinct advantages for Blu-ray Disc that you shouldn't overlook.
I guess all of your Blu-ray movies are BD50s then. If not then I would imagine that you would expect all of the BD25 movies to be reissued sometime soon as BD50s---certainly not very likely to happen. I'm shocked that anyone has bought a Blu-ray player since the format was rushed out before the specs were final and when BD25s were the norm. You may be right about Blu-ray in the future, and if it ever does live up to it's potential then I might buy a player, but there is no way in hell that I would buy one today, and again I'm shocked that anyone on the avsforum has bought one. I guess there's enough of a feeling by the Blu-ray side that they HAVE to buy the immature players and BD25s just so the format won't go away.

All Toshiba has done is demonstrate 51GB discs in the lab. In the real world when it has to be backwards compatible with existing players it is a different story.


Actually they haven't demonstrated TL51 in the lab, it is a paper proposal waiting for ratification by the DVD Forum. If TL51 gets ratified for the HD DVD spec then, and only then will they actually set about producing the discs in the lab or otherwise.

Actually I would think that the engineers would first experiment in the lab to get it working, then when it actually works, get it approved for implementation into the specs.

Why would they waste the Forums time with approving something that might not work?

Actually I would think that the engineers would first experiment in the lab to get it working, then when it actually works, get it approved for implementation into the specs.

Why would they waste the Forums time with approving something that might not work?

Talking points?

Daredgex- good post, but you lost me here:
As for price, the only thing more expensive about BD is the playback device, and that's barely an issue.
Hardware cost is a huge issue. If BR standalones could be had for $250, I don't think anyone would be debating anything at this point.

Studio support is pretty damn important in the short term, and the effect that has is long term in nature.


Studio support is a marketing weapon. That's all.
Let's say a legal problem kills one format. What will happen? Nothing. All studios are left with one choice: the other format.

But that's not going to happen, right? Right.

So let's imagine Blu-ray keeps growing and growing until they get... what?... 99% of the market. What will happen? Universal will support it. Why wouldn't it?
Now let's imagine the opposite: HD DVD stand alone grow so much their attach rate reverses the sales ratios we see today and end up getting 99% of the market. What will happen? Disney, Fox and Sony will support HD DVD.
Why wouldn't they?

Studio support is a marketing weapon. A good weapon. But that's all it is. It makes an irrelevant fact look like an advantage (short or long term) because when one of these formats hit 20 million homes, the war will be already a thing of the past with no trace in anybody's memory.


They can't do that, actually. It's highly unlikely older players would be compatible with the new, larger disc format. That's the #1 way to alienate your customer base.

Backward compatibility and replication.
Maybe that's why we don't have them yet.
Everybody speculates about those discs. And I (being an HD DVD supporter) see two scenarios:

a) It's taking so long for those discs to arrive because backward compatibility and replication is being designed in order to have minimum impact.
b) They will not be backward compatible, but replication still needs some attention.

The incompatibility with older players may or may not be a real issue if you consider the falling price of HD DVD players. If in Q4 we have new players for $199 that are compatible with TL51, I don't see a big problem.

I wouldn't like to buy a new player... but for $199 (or less) who can complain?

But we'll see.

Still, I'd say that a better way of alienating consumers is having problems with BD-java and stand alone player gaming abilities on $500 players - as we have seen with POTC.


I will go out on a limb and say that unless 51 GB is ratified and mandated in players for release by Christmas of this year, it'll never happen. Changing the format after this year would be a major mistake and a big setback for any studio that tried to release software to it.


On that one, maybe you are right.
We'll talk about it by November. Or when new Chinese players arrive.


I agree, but Blu-ray Disc also supports Dolby TrueHD (and both also support DTS HD Master Audio). Long term, more studios will gravitate towards Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA and move away from PCM tracks entirely.

But I guess the decoders in the player are unavailable (since that is not mandatory as it is with all HD DVD players), meaning the burden of a PCM track (or more than one for other languages) is always there, I guess. Specially for the vast majority of consumers who already have receivers and are not planning to buy a new one (like myself).

I suspect the BDA would love to make everybody buy new receivers.


The critical problem with HD DVD is the lack of capacity and the lack of bandwidth. These are things that are nearly impossible for HD DVD to fix without alienating large portions of their customers.

Now we get into the theoretical stuff.
Yeah, yeah... we know BD has more capacity and more bandwidth.

But it's tough to make that a credible reason to go Blu-ray when we watch King Kong, Batman Returns, The Matrix Trilogy, 300 (and others) and all these films simply blow that argumentation looking better than anything we ever saw... or as good as the best blu-ray can do.

So the one thing I cannot understand is why you guys hang around something that is purely theoretical when everybody's experience is highly practical - meaning that the superiority must be there, but several other variables you do not want to see (but are there as well) work to erase any practical trace of that.

It is naive to think that, if you only care about picture and sound - as many of you say -, space and bandwidth are 99% of it.

Now... I suspect that, for gaming applications on the PS3, the bandwidth could be an issue. Could it be that you thought it was for movies? I honestly don't think it is. This could raise an interesting question for those (like me) who do not play game: are we supposed to pay for something we, in practice, don't need?

I wonder.


As for price, the only thing more expensive about BD is the playback device, and that's barely an issue. On the software side, Blu-ray Disc releases are usually cheaper than HD DVD releases (with combos costing more than the identical BD releases).


This is also the subject to a lot of speculation, since we know very little about the real price of BD50 media.

We know a few things about the prices of BD25 and HD DVD30... but zero on BD50. From time to time, there come some announcements... but only things that raise more questions than answers.

The combo disc available on HD DVD is a few bucks more expensive because it subtracts one highly profitable DVD that is left unsold - and DVDs are VERY important to studios.

I am positive BD would have the same price policy if they could have a combo disc. And as far as I know, BD combo discs were proposed some time ago (before BD debut) but it seemed so challenging to make it a reality that it was dropped. I don't think it was a "we don't want it". It was more a "this is too much".


Basically, my support of BD is entirely on the technical merits. I'm not a Sony fanboi, and I'm certainly not a Microsoft hater (I've written software for their OS's from MS-DOS 5 up to Windows Vista), I just appreciate that BD offers more, long term, than HD DVD does (or even can).


Technical merits?
As I say, it's all a matter of perception.


Is iHD/HDi interesting and cool? Sure, but it doesn't really affect the main features presentation, and that's all I care about (is there more than enough room for audio/video encodes to breathe?).


Well... If I love a film, I want the extras. Check all the fuss about Blade Runner's upcoming release. It's all about the extras. So I don't quite believe you really couldn't care less.

Now the extras, according to HD DVD, is a world by itself. And it is available now. And it takes full advantage of two mandatory elements present in every player: the ethernet port and the local memory for storage.

If you ask me what we'll do with that, I don't know yet, we are just starting. But I guess, right now, we can do an awful lot. This is a big technical merit if you think that Blu-ray has it in its infancy.


Anyways, consider the long term ideas I've mentioned above, especially in so far as disc capacity and bandwidth are concerned. These aren't things HD DVD can fix, and they are very clear and distinct advantages for Blu-ray Disc that you shouldn't overlook.

Except for the 50Gb disc (that could be good for much longer films), I do not see any merit that is REALLY worth mentioning if I think about one person's practical experience.

In theory, however, it's all great... the higher bandwidth that WILL make itself seen... the trouble-free things BD-java WILL do... the things BD-live WILL do... the trouble-free extra security BD+ WILL bring... etc...

When I think about it, Blu-ray is today where HD DVD was in 2005: oh, the things it WILL do.

But in 2007, looking at the format's performance, picture quality, sound quality, interactivity, pricing... is there something HD DVD is not doing?

Actually they haven't demonstrated TL51 in the lab, it is a paper proposal waiting for ratification by the DVD Forum. If TL51 gets ratified for the HD DVD spec then, and only then will they actually set about producing the discs in the lab or otherwise.

Are you telling me that we have all been talking for over a year about something nobody at Toshiba remembered to try for real?

Priceless. :D

Let me tell you how it usually works: if it's on paper to be ratified it's because someone actually bothered to sit down :D and put it in written directly from the real thing.

See? Better? :D

Darling, you don't ratify theory. This is not the BDA. You must be confusing formats. :D :D :D

...... is there something HD DVD is not doing?

Winning.

Big B&M dealers favoring Blu Ray, 2nd class status at America's #1 electronics dealer (BB), no instore Blockbuster (America's #1 rental pace), fewer key studios, no movie-integrated game player, more buggy than Blu Ray players, no marketing plan, and no other CE manufacturer will make a player.

The fact is, other than us enthusiasts, no one on the general public has seen HD DVD or even knows what it is. So, it essentially doesn't exist. So, how can it win the public's perception? It can't.

It does have [currently] more interactivity, but in terms of changing their markket perception, that small advantage is just a big laugh.

It doesn't matter if the players go to $99, it won't change any of the above. As HD DVD drops their prices and adds free movies, overall software sales still favor Blu Ray in a big way and big companies are still dropping them. Once the players hit rock bottom in pricing, then Blu Ray will start to run away with it.

Winning.

Big B&M dealers favoring Blu Ray, 2nd class status at America's #1 electronics dealer (BB), no instore Blockbuster (America's #1 rental pace), fewer key studios, no movie-integrated game player, more buggy than Blu Ray players,

All these can change.
What is a movie-integrated game player? :p Is it that game on the POTC disc only PS3-blessed owners could play? Or that PS3 game with a John Woo film? Or the PS3 itself?

Buggy player, Lenore? Since we all got an ethernet port, no more! :D
Others beware!

no marketing plan,

On that, I agree. Marketing is something no one ever has enough.

and no other CE manufacturer will make a player.

That will certainly change soon. Probably before you can say "I have Pip".

The fact is, other than us enthusiasts, no one on the general public has seen HD DVD or even knows what it is. So, it essentially doesn't exist. So, how can it win the public's perception? It can't.

Players seem to be selling well... at $299 or much less, I doubt HD DVD is unknown.
We'll get back on this topic in two months.

It does have [currently] more interactivity, but in terms of changing their markket perception, that small advantage is just a big laugh.

On that I agree... back to marketing.
But you are wrong about interactivity. We'll keep having it for some time to come, untill BD gets it right (these things take time).

It doesn't matter if the players go to $99, it won't change any of the above. As HD DVD drops their prices and adds free movies, overall software sales still favor Blu Ray in a big way and big companies are still dropping them. Once the players hit rock bottom in pricing, then Blu Ray will start to run away with it.
Unless we steal it from you and start to run sooner :)
Your futurology is as good as mine. :)

I read in Reuters that Sony is going into the crystal ball business. I read clairvoyants are worried that Sony's [crystal] balls are incompatible with current psychic powers. :D

Daredgex- good post, but you lost me here:

Hardware cost is a huge issue. If BR standalones could be had for $250, I don't think anyone would be debating anything at this point.
You can grab a Sony standalone from Costco for something like $450. That's not a whole lot more, IMHO, for a format that can offer more long-term. And it's a one-time investment, as opposed to software prices where HD DVD is consistently more expensive. Buy 40 HD DVD combo discs and you'll have canceled out the price advantage of the HD DVD player (20 x $5 = $200).

I'll say this much about HD DVD, they were more prepared than BD was, but I don't directly fault the BD camp (they were forced to launch something they'd have probably rather waited on). Mostly, I just wish they could have worked out their differences rather than launching two separate formats.

Are you telling me that we have all been talking for over a year about something nobody at Toshiba remembered to try for real?

Priceless. :D

Let me tell you how it usually works: if it's on paper to be ratified it's because someone actually bothered to sit down :D and put it in written directly from the real thing.

See? Better? :D

Darling, you don't ratify theory. This is not the BDA. You must be confusing formats. :D :D :D

Yes.

It isn't real until a proper public demonstration a la TDK 200GB BD is done.

Where is the 3 layer hybrid that we heard so much about in the past, because that is similar technology.

Let's look into the future, when the winner has killed the other HD format, and has, say, about 70% of the combined SD-HD market. SD DVD is on it's way out! About then, the studios might decide that it would be better to release in only one format. The HD DVD "flipper" would be the perfect solution. By that time, it could easily be cheaper to release the dual-format disc than to maintain dual inventory. As I see it, plain old DVDs must stick around in some form until the HD format is ubiquitous. Today's pricing isn't even relevant. What matters at that time is the additional manufacturing cost of the flipper, as opposed to the additional cost of dual inventory.

While Blockbuster might blow off 30% of today's miniscule HD disc market, I doubt that any interested party would blow off even 10% or 15% of the total DVD market.

This scenario obviously is possible if HD DVD wins, But BR would have to develop an economically feasible alternative, probably lengthening the time that dual inventories must be maintained. And before anyone even mentions it, including two discs won't work. I might simply give the SD disc to my technically apathetic sister - and the studios certainly don't want that!

Dave

Let's look into the future, when the winner has killed the other HD format, and has, say, about 70% of the combined SD-HD market. SD DVD is on it's way out! About then, the studios might decide that it would be better to release in only one format. The HD DVD "flipper" would be the perfect solution. By that time, it could easily be cheaper to release the dual-format disc than to maintain dual inventory. As I see it, plain old DVDs must stick around in some form until the HD format is ubiquitous. Today's pricing isn't even relevant. What matters at that time is the additional manufacturing cost of the flipper, as opposed to the additional cost of dual inventory.

While Blockbuster might blow off 30% of today's miniscule HD disc market, I doubt that any interested party would blow off even 10% or 15% of the total DVD market.

This scenario obviously is possible if HD DVD wins, But BR would have to develop an economically feasible alternative, probably lengthening the time that dual inventories must be maintained. And before anyone even mentions it, including two discs won't work. I might simply give the SD disc to my technically apathetic sister - and the studios certainly don't want that!

Dave
This scenario didn't happen with Betamax.

It didn't happen with LaserDisc.

It didn't happen with VHS.

Why would you imagine it would be necessary for this to happen with DVD?

Some people also forget that many studios are unhappy with how esily and completely CSS is defeated. Even if AACS can be bypassed and software players continue to get keys, at least they have a response. As soon as it's economically viable, if not a bit sooner, it wouldn't surprise me to see a studio force an end to their participation in DVD.

Double-dipping on already purchased DVDs is just a bonus. Everyone knows the real money is day & date.

I'm rather curious to see what the EU antimonopoly investigations into HDDVD and BDA camps result in. The main gist of it being that they see this not as a format war, which it isn't, and more of a who signed up which studio exclusively kind of thing, which is pretty accurate. Very few studios do both at this point. The investigations should be interesting to see what laws this may have run afoul of depending on how this came about. I believe the term used was vertical monopoly, but don't quote me on it.

If this were really a format war, I should be able to buy two copies of the same movie and decide which disc format is better.

This being reality however, that's obviously never going to happen as it's easier to force a consumer choice by making them decide whose movie they would rather watch. The results should be interesting in any event and may shed some light on some of the closed door meeting room goings on of the studios, which is usually interesting.

And before someone says something like, who cares it's the EU, remember that the EU combined has a population twice the US. Of course one thing everyone forgets is that China is working on their own format. If they ever get that out, BluRay and HD DVD may end up losing out to that. I'll leave it to you to imagine what happens if/when all of the BD and HDDVD players made in China get the Chinese format thrown in for free since the royalty and licensing structure for that will favor said Chinese companies. It's all vaporware, but could prove and interesting wrench in the works. That said, I'll be less annoyed if I blew <200$ on a player and the studios are now shipping the Chinese format.

As for me, I'm sitting on the fence for a while. Maybe when the 200$ dual format players come out I'll bite. I'm still fairly annoyed at that whole Divx disc garbage they pushed on us when DVD first showed up. I think there's supposed to be a <250$ HD-DVD player out soon which will upconvert regular DVD so that would be a strong contender. It could be something I'm only imagining too. At the very least, I have cheap DVDs for now and get to keep peeking over the fence to see what the "neighbors" are up to. Eventually I'll decide to buy in, but I suspect I'm really the problem for the next format lock-in. I just don't really care enough yet to move from my <20$ DVD new releases. :)

regarding the scratchproofness of bluray, why couldnt HD-DVD adopt that on their discs?


I wonder that as well? If HD-DVD discs cost less to manufacture, and their discs dont use scratch resistant coating.... why do discs cost the same or more to buy.

I wonder that as well? If HD-DVD discs cost less to manufacture, and their discs dont use scratch resistant coating.... why do discs cost the same or more to buy.

MSRP isn't a factor of production cost x markup. A Compact Disc costs over $10 still despite the fact that it's under a buck per disc to produce.

I wonder that as well? If HD-DVD discs cost less to manufacture, and their discs dont use scratch resistant coating.... why do discs cost the same or more to buy.
In theory this could happen. The surface construction of HD DVD and Blu-ray discs is very similar; it's just the composition and location of the data layers that are notably different.

Doesn't do anything to help the discs already produced however. I'm sure that's the reason why Blu-ray has the scratch resistant coating as a mandatory part of the spec (and from what I've experienced with it, the coating works quite well).

As for the cost, that's a studio greed issue... sort of. It's not like the studios are actually making money on most of the discs they've released on either format yet. It has nothing to do with the cost of disc production since that is far lower than the asking price.

Yes.

It isn't real until a proper public demonstration a la TDK 200GB BD is done.

Where is the 3 layer hybrid that we heard so much about in the past, because that is similar technology.
Still... I stand by what I said: the DVD Forum does not ratify theory. The DVD Forum is not the BDA. You must be confusing formats. :D :D :D

On that subject, that's all you'll read from me.

Thank you.

This scenario didn't happen with Betamax.

It didn't happen with LaserDisc.

It didn't happen with VHS.

Why would you imagine it would be necessary for this to happen with DVD?

What do you mean, it didn't happen? I don't think you can buy a movie today in any of those formats.

Dave

Edit:
I guess you might mean releasing a dual format disc - but of course that wasn't possible at all with the afformentioned formats. It simply occurred to me that the existance of a dual SD-HD disc might make the demise of SD DVD a bit easier for some to swallow - and maybe less expensive than dual distribution. The studios could release dual-format sooner than they could simply abandon DVD.

Thanks for the feedback to my list of advantages to each format, covering a couple of different angles.

Even though it is not 100% applicable to this thread, I'm updating the list, this time with the clear intent on only putting "advantage +1" on items that are CURRENTLY there. I'll still put some comments/rumors in paranthesis where applicable, and down the road when anything changes, I can go back and update the list.

Response to the feedback:


I would however, add that Blu-ray will have ethernet support in the near future via BD-Live (might be in the 1.1 spec). I think awhile ago I heard Sony mentioning plans for the Spider-man discs. Also, I would remove "backward compatibility" from the HD-DVD pros, as Blu-Ray players are just as backwardly compatible with DVDs, and both sides have done a fantastic job at upscaling.

Ok, I'll add ethernet for Sony in paranthesis though as mentioned below, expect it to be 2.0. Backward compatibility was referring to generally HDDVD having a more mature format in terms of interactive features such as games and Pip. Will clarify. Thanks for indie comments, added another sentence on there btw. (see below).


Paidgeek has given us new info in the Insider's forum that PiP is only mandated to be SD for profile 1.1. HD PiP is an option for BD as it is also for HD DVD.

Thanks, I will update the list accordingly.


Negative. Blu-ray players do not mandate an ethernet port. Ethernet connections are only required with the Blu-ray Profile 2.0, which has no set implementation date. In addition, Blu-ray Profile 2.0 is an optional, not mandatory, feature, so any manufacturer can decline to implement it in their players even after that part of the spec goes live.

Thanks, as mentioned above, list is updated accordingly.



1.BD Live (profile 2.0) requires 1 GB of storage. Any BRD SAL's have this? Does the PS3 have this?

2. The Sony S300 has NO Ethernet port. The one that is going to be sold at Target starting in October

3. HD DVD IS backwards compatible - we have the Combo and Twin Format discs. BRD has nothing like this. Movie on the disc will play in 210 million DVD players (any kind - home, PC or car) and an HD DVD player.

4. Samsung has announced 3 new BRD players for 2007 - 1400, 2400 and 5000 DF - none of them are 1.1 compliant. According to PC World - Samsung will not release a 1.1 compliant player until 2008 (no time or Q given) The only CEM that says they will have a 1.1 compliant player is Denon - for $2000.

5. Up Scaling - yep totally agree - amazing what you can get from 720x480

I believe the previous revision was accurate on these points(I realise you probably directed this at someone else though). HDDVD got a point for ethernet, Combo was +1, HD pip advantage removed from BD since it a)currently does not exist, and b) will not offer anything (mandatory) over the HD version.


More space=better quality is highly debatable.
More space=more content is highly debatable. I personally doubt this is that important since two-disc editions are so deep into consumer's tastes.
But that's me.
Higher bandwidth=more quality is highly debatable because, as you say, it is all "theoretical"
1.1 superior Pip? Strange... lot's of people on the Blu-ray camp (when pressed against HD DVD's interactivity) swear upon the lives of their parents not to care one bit about those things...

I don't think indie support is that important.

The higher chance of survival is also highly debatable. If HD DVD wins, do you have any doubt it will have full support of everybody?

I added a question of whether space/bandwidth has practical value for movies. Think it would be unfair to remove completely. One could also argue that it can give it. The question is perhaps whether it is noticeable that one uses slightly less compression. Superior Pip is now removed and won't come back, unless we get new info. Indie support kept in, while combined with Porn support for the time being. Looks like BD and HDDVD is more equal than before, but until further notice I'll give HD advantage+1. Since the list is now clarified to be for the current situation I think better support in these areas should still count as pro's on the BD side.


Indie support also means better adult film support for the HD-DVD camp. It's not the 80's, but support from the adult film industry is still important.

Thanks for the input. Updated.

Revised List:
HDDVD advantages from users perspective:
1. Better Interactive support from the get-go (pip, games working NOW - BD to add in profile 1.1)
2. Ethernet connection - interactive features/firmware upgrades (BD may get in 2.0 profile which will most likely be optional)
3. Region Free
4. No advanced DRM
5. Cheaper players
6. Combo discs

BluRay advantages from users perspective:
1. More space on the disk - allows for more quality content plus superior data storage on pc (not currently counting a lab experiment for 51gb hddvd.
2. Higher bandwidth - allows for better quality theoretically. (Will it really have practical/perceivable value on movies in terms of quality when/if used?)
3. Scratch Resistant Coating

HDDVD advantages from Studio/CE/Retail perspective:
1. Cheaper manufacturing facilities
2. Lower cost of discs
3. Better support to indie/small/porn studios? (may be changing)
4. Ethernet connection - could potentially be used for control purposes

BluRay advantages from Studio/CE/Retail perspective:
1. Region encoding (some studios prefer to have option)
2. Advanced DRM (most studios would prefer to have option)
3. Higher chance of survival due to larger Studio support
4. Higher chance of survival due to larger CE/ support
5. Higher chance of survival due to larger Retail support

What do you mean, it didn't happen? I don't think you can buy a movie today in any of those formats.

Dave

Edit:
I guess you might mean releasing a dual format disc - but of course that wasn't possible at all with the afformentioned formats. It simply occurred to me that the existance of a dual SD-HD disc might make the demise of SD DVD a bit easier for some to swallow - and maybe less expensive than dual distribution. The studios could release dual-format sooner than they could simply abandon DVD.
In a hypothetical situation where HD achieves market dominance over SD DVD at some point in the future to the tune of 70% as you suggest, adding a dual format disc to prolong the life of the previous reigning champion format does not help your format achieve higher market penetration. For that matter, the combo disc has been of dubious value in establishing HD DVD as well, since the price premium the studios have been charging for them negates any positive impact they might have had.

Bluu Dragon is the exception not the norm. It probably uses FMV for cutscenes that could of been rendered, which is why games in the FF series spanned multiple discs. BTW Blue Dragon's on 3 DVDs

You'll also notice that that was reserved for a title that has little to no following in the US.

Actually your scenario is more likely with HD DVD than Blu-ray since HD DVD mandates an internet connection.

Blu-ray discs can't be guaranteed to be able to "phone home" so the Blu-ray's have a tendency to need to be self-supporting without an external connection.

Don't the new profiles require a ethernet connection for BD too? Don't spin it like it is an HD DVD only thing.

Don't the new profiles require a ethernet connection for BD too? Don't spin it like it is an HD DVD only thing.

If you read three posts up, you'll see that Ethernet may be part of BD spec 2.0 which will most likely not be made mandatory, so I don't think the two can be compared.

I'd feel better about Blu-ray,

1) If it were region-free

2) If BD+ was scrapped

3) If scratch-coat wasn't needed.

4) If it simply cost less (the first possible hope)

LOL! :D

Don't the new profiles require a ethernet connection for BD too? Don't spin it like it is an HD DVD only thing.

Yes it is:

2.0 (BD-Live)
Profile 2, also known as BD-Live, adds network connectivity to the list of mandatory functions and increases mandatory local storage capability to 1 GB. No players have been announced as compatible with this profile. Players of earlier profiles will still be able to play the main feature of the disc, however.

BD has to implement 1.1 first - then it can move on to 2.0. Notice the Persistant Storage goes up to 1GB versus 256MB for 1.1. New players next year may do both 1.1 and 2.0 at the same time - from a hardware requirement - My guess - they will even if it takes another year after 1.1 is implemented - too many players is in the market to shut them out of BD Live. Right now they are at 1.0

This is a compatibility problem that may or may not arrive in the future IF TL51 ever gets to be really necessary.

But right now, Blu-ray is already having compatibility problems TODAY for not being able to play a simple game in all players. When it comes incompatibility issues, that is the only department where blu-ray is ahead of HD DVD - in the worst sense. :D


Yes I've seen this as well.

You author and burn a BD-R movie disc, only the panasonic or ps3 with a fw update can reliably be expected to play it.

1. Region code free or mod to make it so.

How can they call BD the superior format when they have this issue of levels of features in players?

All players compliant with 1.0
most players will be 1.1 compliant
Few players and all PS3's will be 2.0 compliant

This IMO, is the product of the PS3.

So how many BD SAL's will have been sold since SID to say 3/1/08? According to Sony - should be about 750,000. And how many will be shut off from features available with 1.1 compliant players? Answer: All

Yes, BDA should have finalized the specification before shipping the first players.
No, they are not superior in this area, but once spec 1.1 is implemented, it is level (except ethernet which could be argued to be a blessing, a curse, or not that interesting)

Relatively speaking few are affected because a) the player base is very limited and b) interactive features is not really a main feature in my opinion.

Note that if companies should never be allowed to update specs/add features, HDDVD should also abandon plans to expand their 51 GB disc by the same measure, as it is quite possible they can't upgrade their existing player base.