The reason I ask is because it's barely been a year and they are the only studio who has begun double-dipping. First with Troy and now with Full Metal Jacket. It wouldn't be so bad, but they have so many movies they haven't released yet that it seems extremely premature to start with the re-issues. I'd rather see Twister or some of the other Batman movies before I need to re-buy any of the current releases.

Sony has at least 1. Universal has a few.

Sony has at least 1. Universal has a few.

When Sony hears the complaints of its fans concerning a favorite title, and offers a free exchange program, it's double dipping?

Nope

I knew FMJ was a poor PQ title so I avoided it and now I'm happy.

Warner made it easy for me to support Troy by putting it on sale so I picked it up for a song. If the Directors cut is worth it I'll double dip...the pressure is on them..not me.

Double Dips suck but then I wouldn't want a studio to stop evolving their product.

When Sony hears the complaints of its fans concerning a favorite title, and offers a free exchange program, it's double dipping?

I missed the recall of that disc. It took me half a day to find a copy of the new one, because everyone in my area had 3 or 4 of the old one and weren't ordering in the new one until they were gone. Also, where was the giant announcement of the exchange program? I've never seen it posted at any store.

Sony has at least 1. Universal has a few.

The universal titles were just re-issued as non combos. They are the same movie that was released before. Sony offered free replacements. I don't consider either double-dipping. When I think of double-dipping, I think of movies that are re-released with more extras/extended cuts/better audio options/etc. Something that would tempt someone to re-purchase something. So far, Warner is the only studio I feel is doing this.

The universal titles were just re-issued as non combos. They are the same movie that was released before. Sony offered free replacements. I don't consider either double-dipping. When I think of double-dipping, I think of movies that are re-released with more extras/extended cuts/better audio options/etc. Something that would tempt someone to re-purchase something. So far, Warner is the only studio I feel is doing this.

Then the Warner titles aren't the same ones.

Also, where was the giant announcement of the exchange program? I've never seen it posted at any store.

I have this weird feeling like you're well aware of the program, even without fanfare at the store. It's an exchange program - one that has no basis in anything other than customer satisfaction, because certainly Sony doesn't have to be doing this. They could in fact go for the double-dip with the existing 5th Element owners (however few thousand that constitutes).

At the store one might expect to see a recall notice on a recalled product... but not a "trade in your old 5th Element BD by contacting SPHE" notice. I hope you can agree with that logic. You're really out for blood if *that's* the major point of contention with you regarding Fifth Element.

I have this weird feeling like you're well aware of the program, even without fanfare at the store. It's an exchange program - one that has no basis in anything other than customer satisfaction, because certainly Sony doesn't have to be doing this. They could in fact go for the double-dip with the existing 5th Element owners (however few thousand that constitutes).

At the store one might expect to see a recall notice on a recalled product... but not a "trade in your old 5th Element BD by contacting SPHE" notice. I hope you can agree with that logic. You're really out for blood if *that's* the major point of contention with you regarding Fifth Element.

I've seen several people mention it, but I have seen no evidence it exists. Also the ones that mentioned it say that you get a new disc, but not the new case. I can't see the custom case crowd going for that deal. What this all comes down to is you defending every single action right or wrong that Sony makes. Any exchange with you is a monologue from your side. Cya.

Ticked at Warner?

Quite the opposite.

Nope

I knew FMJ was a poor PQ title so I avoided it and now I'm happy.

Warner made it easy for me to support Troy by putting it on sale so I picked it up for a song. If the Directors cut is worth it I'll double dip...the pressure is on them..not me.

Double Dips suck but then I wouldn't want a studio to stop evolving their product.

Being that it is so early in the game, I just feel that they would be better off releasing titles that have not been released. I have no problem with evolution, but at this point, they should have done it "right" the first time. If they knew there was going to be a remaster (which I am sure they did), why not release a different title and then release the remastered cut when it is ready? Supposedly, these formats are replacing DVD, and re-releasing titles now is just going to make the catalog look smaller than it is.

I've seen several people mention it, but I have seen no evidence it exists.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=876417 :rolleyes:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=876417 :rolleyes:
Now, I have seen several more people mention it.

Now, I have seen several more people mention it.

But... you still don't *believe* it, right?

Why don't you call the 800 number pointed out in post #15 - that's what I did to exchange mine. And of course as if you didn't already know you were spreading FUD about the cases, I'll go ahead and point out it's actually the opposite:

Received my replacement copy from Sony yesterday. Pleasent surprise to find it in the mail.
I shipped them my disc without the case and they shipped em a whole new case so I have a extra Fifth Ellement BD case Ill probably just toss the old Fifth Ellement cover andkeep the empty BD case.

Granted in your opinion, Evangelo2 probably can't be trusted to be telling the truth. Afterall:


I've seen several people mention it, but I have seen no evidence it exists. Also the ones that mentioned it say that you get a new disc, but not the new case.

I've been harboring some doubts about Warner's intentions with their encodes lately. Seems to me like a lot of the Warner encodes aren't always quite as crisp as they could be; the paranoid part of me thinks they're setting up titles for double dipping later in the firm knowledge that the majority of current buyers are movie buffs who just have to have the "perfect edition" and will therefore double dip when the time comes.

That's not to say their current releases don't look "good"... but that's all they are is "good" IMO. Very few outstanding encodes despite a large number of released titles from Warner.

But... you still don't *believe* it, right? I don't believe or disbelieve it.
And of course as if you didn't already know you were spreading FUD about the cases, I'll go ahead and point out it's actually the opposite: Of course, there's the attack. I guess it was easier than just saying that you received a new disc and case.



Granted in your opinion, Evangelo2 probably can't be trusted to be telling the truth. Afterall:
I have no idea who that is.

I've been harboring some doubts about Warner's intentions with their encodes lately. Seems to me like a lot of the Warner encodes aren't always quite as crisp as they could be; the paranoid part of me thinks they're setting up titles for double dipping later in the firm knowledge that the majority of current buyers are movie buffs who just have to have the "perfect edition" and will therefore double dip when the time comes.

That's not to say their current releases don't look "good"... but that's all they are is "good" IMO. Very few outstanding encodes despite a large number of released titles from Warner.
I can promise you that none of this is as good as it gets, except for maybe the improved Fifth Element. It took years to get DVD right and they still make crappy discs.

I don't believe or disbelieve it.

Of course, you could contact via the contact information in post #15 of the thread I linked to to confirm - as I already stated. But... just easier for you not to I guess, and to keep saying that this whole 'exchange' thing might be untrue. I gotcha.

Of course, there's the attack.

What, the one saying you're spreading FUD? Well I guess if it's an attack... but of course if you stopped spreading FUD you wouldn't get called out on it, ie "attacked."

I guess it was easier than just saying that you received a new disc and case.

Well, I haven't yet...

I have no idea who that is.

The guy I quoted that you thought was me talking about myself. See, it's right there in the quote box...

Slim, did you even read *any* of the thread I linked you to?

The guy I quoted that you thought was me talking about myself. See, it's right there in the quote box...

Slim, did you even read *any* of the thread I linked you to?

You are prone to wild assumptions aren't you? I didn't read the quotes at all. I was concerned with your comments, not mine or anyone else's. I read enough to understand the topic of the thread. It's all the info I needed.

I can promise you that none of this is as good as it gets, except for maybe the improved Fifth Element. It took years to get DVD right and they still make crappy discs.
I know that. Still, we've seen really stellar encodes from Disney, Sony, Universal and Paramount, and the quality is improving over time (well, except with some of Universal's lackadaisical shovelware encodes, but I think that's got more to do with their hectic release slate than anything else... and they still manage to turn out some great looking titles even at their current pace). Fox is really the only other major studio that's got a bad PQ record, but it's not like they're releasing anything right now to criticize...

Warner, as I understand it, has their own internal post house for encoding which is well regarded, and you'd expect them to be doing reasonably well especially since they're cutting corners time and resource-wise by doing a single HD DVD/BD encode for their releases.

I can't really put my finger on anything specific; it's just that there's this feeling of mediocrity about many of their encodes, which just should not be when we're seeing other studios with lesser resources turning out better product.

You are prone to wild assumptions aren't you? I didn't read the quotes at all. I was concerned with your comments, not mine or anyone else's. I read enough to understand the topic of the thread. It's all the info I needed.

Telling me you didn't even read what I wrote you before responding certainly doesn't help your position.

Here's another "wild" assumption: I wouldn't be surprised if this is how you approached most threads - simply never reading what is presented to you, but responding anyway along whatever pre-determined line you have already set upon. It would certainly explain a lot recently.

Speaking of FUD and quotes though, I'm wondering now if you can provide the original source for:

Also the ones that mentioned it say that you get a new disc, but not the new case.

Telling me you didn't even read what I wrote you before responding certainly doesn't help your position.

Here's another "wild" assumption: I wouldn't be surprised if this is how you approached most threads - simply never reading what is presented to you, but responding anyway along whatever pre-determined line you have already set upon. It would certainly explain a lot recently.

Speaking of FUD and quotes though, I'm wondering now if you can provide the original source for:

There you go again. I mentioned that I had read what you wrote, and you attack me for not reading what you wrote.
This forum (you know the one you used as evidence of TFE disc replacements) is the place I got that so called FUD. It came from BD owners. Are you accusing BD owners of FUD about their own stuff? Are you sure it wasn't a honest mistake? Come down from the throne and hang with the rest of us for a minute or four.

There you go again. I mentioned that I had read what you wrote, and you attack me for not reading what you wrote.

What you said was: I didn't read the quotes at all...I read enough to understand the topic of the thread. It's all the info I needed.

You stated that you had not read the quotes I provided - essentially you didn't read my responses at all. It's asinine to say the least. If there's arrogance here, it's in your feeling yourself too good to be bothered reading before passing your judgements on the information before you.

This forum (you know the one you used as evidence of TFE disc replacements) is the place I got that so called FUD.

What I'm asking you, is to provide said source - or admit that you actually had no source at all when you stated what you'd "heard" about the exchange program.

It came from BD owners. Are you accusing BD owners of FUD about their own stuff?

What I'm accusing, is you of fabrication in your typical bid to malign. Show me a BD owner that said what you claim, and we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

What you said was: I didn't read the quotes at all...I read enough to understand the topic of the thread. It's all the info I needed.

You stated that you had not reads the quotes I provided - essentially you didn't read my responses at all. It's asinine to say the least. If there's arrogance here, it's in your feeling yourself too good to be bothered reading before passing your judgements on the information before you.



What I'm asking you, is to provide said source - because I for one have never seen such a claim.



What I'm accusing, is you of fabrication in your typical bid to malign. Show me a BD owner that said what you claim, and we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
You win. I'm stupid and I'm maligning a format that I've spent $1500 for players. You get the honor of being the only person I've ever put on an ignore list.

I think warner is the best studio out of either format.

I think warner is the best studio out of either format.

They are. Disney is going to start bringing some of the stuff people care about, however.

I think warner is the best studio out of either format.

In terms of the number of releases and their eagerness to release big hits ...yes they are the best. In terms of PQ and AQ, Disney is hands the best studio. Its not even close.

I am not a big fan of Warner's policy of authoring to the lowest common denominator. A lot of their transfers is rather soft. I like Paramount's approach much better. They author to the specific format ...at least in the video part. In other words, they don't use an one size fit all encode for both formats.

I'm way more ticked off at Fox. I mean how long do we have to wait. :mad:

I am ticked at Warner, but for the opposite reason as the OP. They hold up release of Batman Begins, V, and a couple others on BD citing interactivity. Realistically, they are going to re-release all of these titles more than once during the life cycle of HD optical media anyway. Where is it written that they can't do a BD release minus the interactivity now, then produce a bonus-laden version in two years. How many buyers actually have time to watch the extras anyway? They have never been as neutral as they would like us to believe.

no basis in anything other than customer satisfaction, because certainly Sony doesn't have to be doing this. They could in fact go for the double-dip with the existing 5th Element owners (however few thousand that constitutes).

I consider this exchange program to be more like an automobile recall. While they didn't have to do it, it was certainly NOT in their interest to leave such a popular title out in the wild where other people could look at it. And considering that it was released as an intermediate step to counter the HD DVD launch, with no doubt full knowledge and complicity of all involved as to the poor quality of such an iconic title, I'd be hesitant to give them so much credit. I frankly don't see the good will part of it.

On the other hand, if I was a Blu-ray supporter (I'm not), and had the initial launch version of TFE, I imagine I'd feel like you do.

I consider this exchange program to be more like an automobile recall. While they didn't have to do it, it was certainly NOT in their interest to leave such a popular title out in the wild where other people could look at it. And considering that it was released as an intermediate step to counter the HD DVD launch, with no doubt full knowledge and complicity of all involved as to the poor quality of such an iconic title, I'd be hesitant to give them so much credit. I frankly don't see the good will part of it. But that is JMO.
It might have been a PR move, but if so, what's Universal's excuse for not re-releasing a proper HD version of Traffic for HD DVD? It's not like they've been lacking in the release department lately...

At any rate, compare and contrast to Warner going after multiple true double dips. I agree with the above and say that their performance as far as movie selection is second to none, but multiple double dips in less than a year is hardly consumer-friendly when they still have a vast amount of other content they could be releasing in its stead.

I can forgive Warner for a handful of bad discs but I am ticked off at them for not releasing or even announcing the Blu-ray versions of the following yet:

- Batman Begins
- The Matrix
- Terminator 3
- V For Vendetta

I think warner is the best studio out of either format.
Agreed. If it wasn't for Warner, both formats might be dead by now.
J

I want more lossless audio, and BD releases that make better use of what BD has to offer.

But I have been watching lots of their movies on BD and will continue to, even without improvement.

I can forgive Warner for a handful of bad discs but I am ticked off at them for not releasing or even announcing the Blu-ray versions of the following yet:

- Batman Begins
- The Matrix
- Terminator 3
- V For Vendetta
Then you should blame the BDA, for not having their technical act together, and not delivering what was promised.
J

Then you should blame the BDA, for not having their technical act together, and not delivering what was promised.
J

I could blame the BDA but I don't care about IME or any other extra features. I would have been happy if a movie only version were released on BD when the HD DVD counterparts were released. Before you go telling me that Warner wants to give both formats equal treatment, don't forget about the audio differences between format versions of some of their discs. ;)

And since you brought up "what was promised," Warner stated at CES that they'd be caught up with their BD counterparts of HD DVD exclusives by mid-year. Well there ya go, Warner has failed to deliver on their promise as well.

Sony has at least 1. Universal has a few.

I agree. Warner isnt the first.

Then you should blame the BDA, for not having their technical act together, and not delivering what was promised.If I did that, I'd have to blame Toshiba for letting the Chinese gut the DVD market and make everyone else not want to make HD DVD machines, or for not having enough space or bandwidth, or for their so-called final specs being updated with 51GB discs that very well may not play in 1st-gen players. Given the choice between playing web games or a green-screen commentary, and actually being able to play the movie, there's no contest.

I could blame the BDA but I don't care about IME or any other extra features. I would have been happy if a movie only version were released on BD when the HD DVD counterparts were released. Before you go telling me that Warner wants to give both formats equal treatment, don't forget about the audio differences between format versions of some of their discs. ;)


And since you brought up "what was promised," Warner stated at CES that they'd be caught up with their BD counterparts of HD DVD exclusives by mid-year. Well there ya go, Warner has failed to deliver on their promise as well.

Does any of the holdbacks from WB predicate on the issue of 1.1 not being finished. It was supposed to be completed by July and then they moved the date to 10/31? Asking a question - nothing more

It might have been a PR move, but if so, what's Universal's excuse for not re-releasing a proper HD version of Traffic for HD DVD?

Traffic was intended to look bad from the start. Watch or read any interview with Soderbergh and he'll mention this. Several variations of film stock were used, and the post production intentionally cranked the brightness and crushed the black in many scenes to reflect the emotion and mood for the various settings throughout the movie. If you want a spotless transfer of this, then you're falling into the same camp of individuals who complain about grain with movies that had it intentionally added.

I could blame the BDA but I don't care about IME or any other extra features. I would have been happy if a movie only version were released on BD when the HD DVD counterparts were released.
You may not care about the extras, but Warner sure does. Why do you think the BDA promised to have them?

And since you brought up "what was promised," Warner stated at CES that they'd be caught up with their BD counterparts of HD DVD exclusives by mid-year. Well there ya go, Warner has failed to deliver on their promise as well.
That was when the BDA was still saying that 1.1 would be ready by June. Again, the BDA's incompetence is the deciding factor. How soon you forget.
J

I'm actually happier with Warner now than I was before. Their use of PCM tracks and earlier releases amends their pitiful early HDDVD ports (Superman Returns, etc with 20GB of unused capacity while limiting themselves to HDDVDs lower bitrates and not including any lossless). They can keep the IME and assorted garbage for future double dips I can happily ignore. :)

I'm actually happier with Warner now than I was before. Their use of PCM tracks and earlier releases amends their pitiful early HDDVD ports (Superman Returns, etc with 20GB of unused capacity while limiting themselves to HDDVDs lower bitrates and not including any lossless). They can keep the IME and assorted garbage for future double dips I can happily ignore. :)

Could you please provide proof that "HDDVD's lower bitrates" mean something other than something to use and blunt tool to insult people you don't agree with?

Who's insulting and from what words did I post that you were insulted by? That HDDVD's bitrates are lower is undisputed fact. That Warner's early encodes matched the bitrate of their HDDVD counterparts is also undisputed. Obviously in a perfect world, Warner would give Blu-ray it's own AVC or higher bitrate VC1 encode and we could compare apples to apples. Unfortunately, we're left with simple things like math and numbers and a yearning for said perfect world.

I certainly intended no acrimonious tone in my post. You may find IME and the like a treasure, but what's the old saying? "One man's garbage is another man's treasure?"

Who's insulting and from what words did I post that you were insulted by? That HDDVD's bitrates are lower is undisputed fact. That Warner's early encodes matched the bitrate of their HDDVD counterparts is also undisputed. Obviously in a perfect world, Warner would give Blu-ray it's own AVC or higher bitrate VC1 encode and we could compare apples to apples. Unfortunately, we're left with simple things like math and numbers and a yearning for said perfect world.

I certainly intended no acrimonious tone in my post. You may find IME and the like a treasure, but what's the old saying? "One man's garbage is another man's treasure?"
No, we're left with the fact the people that own the movies and do the encoding don't think there is significant benefit to doing different encodes. In the cases where there are different encodes the video has no perceptible difference. My question was, "prove it matters". Feel free to do that.

Such proof is obviously unobtainable, so I'm not sure what the point of your strawman is. Do you care to dispute my post on any undisputable fact, or just restate your obvious opinion?

I'll make you a deal, though. If I ever win the lotto or invent something useful that every household will want, I'll hire MSFT to work their encoder mojo on Batman Begins (or even better King Kong) VC1 at a Blu-ray optimal bitrate and we can then have said A/B comparison.

Such proof is obviously unobtainable...
Is it? Are you sure? Maybe you haven't seen it? Maybe the studios have spent millions of dollars figuring this out, and the strawman is your continual use of bitrate as a measure of disc quality.

And maybe said Studios commitments to the lost cause of an inferior format kept them from spending even more on a superior encode? Conjecture is fun. :)

I can forgive Warner for a handful of bad discs but I am ticked off at them for not releasing or even announcing the Blu-ray versions of the following yet:

- Batman Begins
- The Matrix
- Terminator 3
- V For Vendetta

Warner has been biased for HD DVD from the beginning. Since these titles have been good sellers for HD DVD, maybe they fear the Nielson numbers will look even more an embarassment for HD DVD if they were to be released for Blu-ray. Sounds cynical, but I do believe there is at least some truth to it. (I'm not buying the IME excuse as they could be released without it.)

And maybe said Studios commitments to the lost cause of an inferior format kept them from spending even more on a superior encode? Conjecture is fun. :)
So, you're saying that the studios didn't spend any time and money trying to figure out which video codecs to use? :confused:

Warner has been biased for HD DVD from the beginning. Since these titles have been good sellers for HD DVD, maybe they fear the Nielson numbers will look even more an embarassment for HD DVD if they were to be released for Blu-ray. Sounds cynical, but I do believe there is at least some truth to it. (I'm not buying the IME excuse as they could be released without it.)

The big studios feel that IME and features are a very important part of getting people to buy movies, and in that case, movies like Batman Begins can't be released without it. If Fox was saying that I'd wonder, but not Warner or Disney. The entire thing is very simple. If those movies are important to you, you have a way to see them. If they are not important, stop complaining about them.

The reason I ask is because it's barely been a year and they are the only studio who has begun double-dipping. First with Troy and now with Full Metal Jacket. It wouldn't be so bad, but they have so many movies they haven't released yet that it seems extremely premature to start with the re-issues. I'd rather see Twister or some of the other Batman movies before I need to re-buy any of the current releases.

I'm ticked at Warner for not remaining HD DVD exclusive the rest is minor by comparison.

So, you're saying that the studios didn't spend any time and money trying to figure out which video codecs to use? :confused:

Heh, are you suggesting that ANY studio could have used AVC at launch on HDDVD?

I'm saying they already sank too much money in an HDDVD encode on an obviously small consumption title and were unwilling to spend more even if it would be an ultimately superior videophile experience.

Wrt this topic, I would have never been ticked at Warner if they started with a Blu-ray optimized encode and then turned down the bitrate for HDDVD. It doesn't matter, right?

Heh, are you suggesting that ANY studio could have used AVC at launch on HDDVD?

I'm saying they already sank too much money in an HDDVD encode on an obviously small consumption title and were unwilling to spend more even if it would be an ultimately superior videophile experience.

Wrt this topic, I would have never been ticked at Warner if they started with a Blu-ray optimized encode and then turned down the bitrate for HDDVD. It doesn't matter, right?


I'm saying that they have actually used the codecs and have tested them. You have admitted that you have not. There are also many cases where HDDVD encodes have been "limited" by 25GB BDs. If all of this is really a problem, and aren't just a platform bomber, why aren't you complaining about that? Fair is fair, right?

I'll answer your questions if you answer mine. :)

I'll answer your questions if you answer mine. :)

Then we are done. Peece.

Gotta love the blame game.

Here's one:

Maybe we should blame the BDA for choosing BD-Java instead of HDi?

On this one I'll blame the BDA for not making HDDVD dead on arrival, by not allowing the choice between HDi or BD-J. I will say that HDDVD has always had a more... polished... feel to their menus and that they're smooth and sliding instead of pop-on/pop-off, etc. But that belongs in another thread. :)

Warner probably more than any other studio has provided all the content from their dvd's to the hddvd or bd. These are brand new versions that did not exist before so no, they are not guilty. Being guilty is bringing bare bones high def versions of films on disc and deliberately leaving off extras from the dvd knowing people will double dip later. Sony, Lionsgate, Fox, MGM all come to mind. Look at the Matrix collection, Warner could have released the complete collection first and then the ultimate collection a year later. Look at Ghost Rider, The Patriot, Top Gun all missing extras from the S.E. dvd. Rereleasing The 5th Element and not including the extras from the ultimate edition dvd when you have 50gb of space? I am format nuetral but this is why I own quite a few more hddvd's than bd's. I guarantee you will see a suped up bd X-3 version (europe already has it on dvd), T2 bd that's not bare bones and a version of Speed on bd with all the extras from the 5 star edition.

I've seen several people mention it, but I have seen no evidence it exists. Also the ones that mentioned it say that you get a new disc, but not the new case. I can't see the custom case crowd going for that deal. What this all comes down to is you defending every single action right or wrong that Sony makes. Any exchange with you is a monologue from your side. Cya.



FYI...

I sent in my DISC of TFE around mid July.

Last week, I received a SEALED NEW COPY (new case, coverart and disc, retail sealed) via Fed Ex of the remastered version. As did everyone else who sent theres in.

It was prompt, and the new version is hands down one of the nicest BD's in my collection now.

So give it up.... :rolleyes:

...and the new version is hands down one of the nicest BD's in my collection now.

Sorry to get OT, but I just want to comment that I watched the re-release of TFE this past weekend and I was THRILLED with what I saw! VERY NICE WORK SONY!!! :)



BTW, I too am looking forward to the missing Warner titles on BR.

I can forgive Warner for a handful of bad discs but I am ticked off at them for not releasing or even announcing the Blu-ray versions of the following yet:

- Batman Begins
- The Matrix
- Terminator 3
- V For Vendetta

And they won't because they are not going to go to the expense of creating a new master transfer tape (very expensive). The BDA has been dragging it's feet about Profile 1.1 for quite some time. This is not new. In January at CES SIGMA had announced 3 BD players with their new 8634 SoC. This is the only SoC that is capable of doing 1.1.

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/public/Company/press_releases/070108b.pdf

And this was 1/8/07. The players were available in 2006. They were manufactured before BD became a reality. We are talking about well over a year that the BDA has known of the 1.1 issue. So what did they do? Moved the deadline from July to October.

At this moment in time, the ONLY 1.1 compliant BD player will be the just announced Denon. There may be a chance that the 3 players in question above can be firmware upgraded IF they have the correct 256MB of persistant storage.

The 3 new Samsung players just announced are not 1.1 compliant. And they go on sale starting in Sept and Oct. Samsung said 2008 for 1.1 players

WB has drawn a line in the sand. It has told the BDA - "you want the titles . . . release 1.1 compliant players."

Based on all this - don't expect to see those 22 exculsive HD DVD titles arriving on BD any time soon.

And they won't because they are not going to go to the expense of creating a new master transfer tape (very expensive). The BDA has been dragging it's feet about Profile 1.1 for quite some time. This is not new. In January at CES SIGMA had announced 3 BD players with their new 8634 SoC. This is the only SoC that is capable of doing 1.1.

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/public/Company/press_releases/070108b.pdf

And this was 1/8/07. The players were available in 2006. They were manufactured before BD became a reality. We are talking about well over a year that the BDA has known of the 1.1 issue. So what did they do? Moved the deadline from July to October.

At this moment in time, the ONLY 1.1 compliant BD player will be the just announced Denon. There may be a chance that the 3 players in question above can be firmware upgraded IF they have the correct 256MB of persistant storage.

The 3 new Samsung players just announced are not 1.1 compliant. And they go on sale starting in Sept and Oct. Samsung said 2008 for 1.1 players

WB has drawn a line in the sand. It has told the BDA - "you want the titles . . . release 1.1 compliant players."

Based on all this - don't expect to see those 22 exculsive HD DVD titles arriving on BD any time soon.


Since that is obviously nothing but your opinion, I will give you mine. We will see BB and the Matrix on BR before 2008.

Since that is obviously nothing but your opinion, I will give you mine. We will see BB and the Matrix on BR before 2008.

My opinion. Yes . It is based on the facts as I presented them. Now please tell me what you are basing your opinion on.

My opinion. Yes . It is based on the facts as I presented them. Now please tell me what you are basing your opinion on.

I am basing mine on the fact that the 1.1 profile is finished. The BDA has done what Warner wants. The players are not available yet but they will be here eventually.

1. We know they have the audio and video done in HD.
2. We know the extras are done.
3. We know that BB is one of HD DVD's best selling titles, not sure about matrix, I would assume it has been a decent performer
4. We know they are neutral so they don't have the excuse of "BR is new to us" (familiarity for lack of a better term)

1. I ASSUME they can test the interactivity on a 1.1 non production machine at this point

So they have made money on both HD DVD releases, BR is "compliant", and Warner is "neutral". I just don't see whay it wouldnt make financial sense to release both of these titles for the holidays.

Keep in mind if it were January, I would NOT guess that they would be released in the next 4 months. But it just makes sense to release titles that are proven to be successful HD media sellers before this holiday season.

There you have it, I don't assume my opinion means anything to anyone but since you asked. :) I felt important :D

I am basing mine on the fact that the 1.1 profile is finished. The BDA has done what Warner wants. The players are not available yet but they will be here eventually.

1. We know they have the audio and video done in HD.
2. We know the extras are done.
3. We know that BB is one of HD DVD's best selling titles, not sure about matrix, I would assume it has been a decent performer
4. We know they are neutral so they don't have the excuse of "BR is new to us" (familiarity for lack of a better term)

1. I ASSUME they can test the interactivity on a 1.1 non production machine at this point

So they have made money on both HD DVD releases, BR is "compliant", and Warner is "neutral". I just don't see whay it wouldnt make financial sense to release both of these titles for the holidays.

Keep in mind if it were January, I would NOT guess that they would be released in the next 4 months. But it just makes sense to release titles that are proven to be successful HD media sellers before this holiday season.

There you have it, I don't assume my opinion means anything to anyone but since you asked. :) I felt important :D

With The Matrix boxes, I assume they are just waiting to complete testing, and I don't know where they are as far as getting 1.1 players to test on. The only ones that are announced are the Denons, and I haven't seen a date for them. They can't be looking forward to a case like PotC where playback sucks on all players but the PS3.

The big studios feel that IME and features are a very important part of getting people to buy movies, and in that case, movies like Batman Begins can't be released without it. If Fox was saying that I'd wonder, but not Warner or Disney. The entire thing is very simple. If those movies are important to you, you have a way to see them. If they are not important, stop complaining about them.

I will keep complaining because Warner hides behind their politically correct BS of being "format neutral" when they are anything but (look at the titles where they deliberately shafted Blu-ray in terms of lossless audio such as Happy Feet, Superman Returns, etc). There are still 20-some titles on HD DVD not released on Blu-ray - MOST of which do not contain IME! Yet, some of these titles have been on HD DVD over a year - still not even an announcement by Warner for the Blu-ray versions. Regarding IME - Warner and the studios pushing it will be in for a rude surprise since the vast majority of early adopters care much, much more about optimal audio and video quality - not interactive gimmicks (which many people have no time for!). IME is a very, very minor factor in the selling of either HD format - including HD DVD buyers.

I am basing mine on the fact that the 1.1 profile is finished. The BDA has done what Warner wants. The players are not available yet but they will be here eventually.

1. We know they have the audio and video done in HD.
2. We know the extras are done.
3. We know that BB is one of HD DVD's best selling titles, not sure about matrix, I would assume it has been a decent performer
4. We know they are neutral so they don't have the excuse of "BR is new to us" (familiarity for lack of a better term)

1. I ASSUME they can test the interactivity on a 1.1 non production machine at this point

So they have made money on both HD DVD releases, BR is "compliant", and Warner is "neutral". I just don't see whay it wouldnt make financial sense to release both of these titles for the holidays.

Keep in mind if it were January, I would NOT guess that they would be released in the next 4 months. But it just makes sense to release titles that are proven to be successful HD media sellers before this holiday season.

There you have it, I don't assume my opinion means anything to anyone but since you asked. :) I felt important :D

RED: Profile 1.1 was finished a long time ago. The problem is the BDA can't get it to work. Last count they were still having problems with BD-J and PIP which is the main hold up.

You can write any specs you want. The key is delivering players that preform to those specs and as of today - this has not been done.

Your point that WB wants to increase it's revenue selling these 22 tiles to BD owner is valid. But to do so they have to undertake large expenditures of cash to do it. And HDM movie sales are averagiing between 30,000 and 50,000. Some a great deal less. They might lose money because of the master transfer tape issue.

1 or 2 titles - it is a possibility. I would not rule it out. But then again it depends on WB's committment to standing firm. And they just saw Samsung announce it's Q4 players - and none are 1.1 compliant including the DF 5000 player.

So I guess we will wait. WB has already started to announce Q4 titles like BLADE RUNNER for Dec. But no announcements on those 22 missing titles.

I will keep complaining because Warner hides behind their politically correct BS of being "format neutral" when they are anything but (look at the titles where they deliberately shafted Blu-ray in terms of lossless audio such as Happy Feet, Superman Returns, etc). There are still 20-some titles on HD DVD not released on Blu-ray - MOST of which do not contain IME! Yet, some of these titles have been on HD DVD over a year - still not even an announcement by Warner for the Blu-ray versions. Regarding IME - Warner and the studios pushing it will be in for a rude surprise since the vast majority of early adopters care much, much more about optimal audio and video quality - not interactive gimmicks (which many people have no time for!). IME is a very, very minor factor in the selling of either HD format - including HD DVD buyers.

They aren't just making discs for early adopters. They are making discs to sell to the general public and they truly believe that IME is the way to go. Again, if these movies are that important to you, you can buy them, and the player is cheap to view them on. You are on a forum where people don't shy away from buying new gear. Live a little.

RED: Profile 1.1 was finished a long time ago. The problem is the BDA can't get it to work. Last count they were still having problems with BD-J and PIP which is the main hold up.

You can write any specs you want. The key is delivering players that preform to those specs and as of today - this has not been done.

Your point that WB wants to increase it's revenue selling these 22 tiles to BD owner is valid. But to do so they have to undertake large expenditures of cash to do it. And HDM movie sales are averagiing between 30,000 and 50,000. Some a great deal less. They might lose money because of the master transfer tape issue.

1 or 2 titles - it is a possibility. I would not rule it out. But then again it depends on WB's committment to standing firm. And they just saw Samsung announce it's Q4 players - and none are 1.1 compliant including the DF 5000 player.

So I guess we will wait. WB has already started to announce Q4 titles like BLADE RUNNER for Dec. But no announcements on those 22 missing titles.


Yeah I wouldnt think they would release all of them by the holidays, just a couple of the well performing ones.

Your point about the 1.1 tesing not going well is news to me, if that is the case then it is obvious that they will not release discs if they cannot test the features.

I think if that is the problem then they will not be out until they can test. I think that if they have the ability to test the features however, the fact that no current players can play them will not cause them to miss the holiday season's potential disc sales.

I get what you are saying about the cost of the master potentially being prohibitive, but why not use the same master as the HD DVD version? Also we know they have means in place to stamp BR discs, why would that be a such large expenditures of cash, any more than their current BR releases?

Yeah I wouldnt think they would release all of them by the holidays, just a couple of the well performing ones.

Your point about the 1.1 tesing not going well is news to me, if that is the case then it is obvious that they will not release discs if they cannot test the features.

I think if that is the problem then they will not be out until they can test. I think that if they have the ability to test the features however, the fact that no current players can play them will not cause them to miss the holiday season's potential disc sales.

I get what you are saying about the cost of the master potentially being prohibitive, but why not use the same master as the HD DVD version? Also we know they have means in place to stamp BR discs, why would that be a such large expenditures of cash, any more than their current BR releases?

They can't use the same Batman Begins MT Tape because it has all the special features it in. They would have to create a new MT Tape with all the features stripped out. In essence a new transfer of the movie. I do not know how easy it is to remove the features. Maybe someone with knowledge will join the thread and tell us. They went to a lot of time, trouble and money to create those features. They want consumers to see and enjoy them. And The Matrix is a double dip. Been out on DVD for quite some time.

For a movie like THE ROAD WARRIOR - they create a single MT Tape - copy it and one goes to the HD DVD pressing plant while the other to the BD pressing plant. Glass Masters are created and the discs are stamped out. One expenditure - two results. They also use the MT Tape to create the DVD version so one tape - three versions of media.

They did go to the trouble to do this with 300 as the versions are different between the formats. But that is also a brand new movie and will experience higher sales than a catalog title. Same thing with Blood Diamonds.

They can't use the same Batman Begins MT Tape because it has all the special features it in. They would have to create a new MT Tape with all the features stripped out. In essence a new transfer of the movie.Are you seriously so misinformed that you don't know what the difference is between mastering and authoring? A master contains nothing but the movie. All the special features are done via authoring, removing them would maybe take all of a day using consumer-level tools from an amateur.

This really gets to the heart of the matter, doesn't it? I have wanted to go HD DVD, but with the apparent momentum on Blu-ray's side in the marketplace, I can't justify that. Then I look at blu-ray. Player price is much higher. Best player is a game machine with limited audio connectivity. Standalones are pricey and non-compliant with upcoming standards. I can't afford to buy something that will be outdated 6 months from now at $450 or more, and I don't want a game machine I can't connect to my current non-hdmi receiver.

So I'm stuck. We'd be so much better off with the reasonably priced standardized HD DVD machines. Oh well...

Are you seriously so misinformed that you don't know what the difference is between mastering and authoring? A master contains nothing but the movie. All the special features are done via authoring, removing them would maybe take all of a day using consumer-level tools from an amateur.

One tape is sent to the pressing plant to create the GM. Doesn't it have all the authoring and the transfer on it?

So if there exists a transfer tape of the movie by itself. Then that could be sent to the pressing plant to create the GM.

So why has this not been done?

They aren't just making discs for early adopters. They are making discs to sell to the general public and they truly believe that IME is the way to go. Again, if these movies are that important to you, you can buy them, and the player is cheap to view them on. You are on a forum where people don't shy away from buying new gear. Live a little.

You're not comprehending and you're completely missing my point.

Warner has claimed that they will fully support each format equally. I have no problems with that. However, they are NOT doing that. Most of the missing titles are NOT IME. Why haven't they released the NON-IME titles?! And, why did they shaft Blu-ray on the lossless audio titles, as well? Warner is not keep to their word.

Oh, I own both formats. I have a PS3 and HD-A2. However, with the writing clearly on the wall for HD DVD, I'm thinking of selling it to savage something from it as have rented many of the Universal titles I want to see. :)

I think warner is the best studio out of either format.


I'm not particularly thrilled about the slow release schedules of all studios, but of the films that have been made available so far Warner's is the best.

Ticked at Warner?

Quite the opposite.
Me too.

One tape is sent to the pressing plant to create the GM. Doesn't it have all the authoring and the transfer on it?

So if there exists a transfer tape of the movie by itself. Then that could be sent to the pressing plant to create the GM.

So why has this not been done?

I'm 100% sure that Warner has all the movie material in digital form, ready to be put down for a BluRay disc. What they will need to do is create new menu's, and add whatever 1.1 compliant features they would like.

Warner aren't total idiots, tossing out their "digital master" after making the hddvd version.

Heck, I bet if they were happy with their encoding of those movies on HDDVD, they have the tools needed to rip the movie itself right off one of the HDDVD discs, and convert header/container type info to be compatible with BluRay.

Warner has claimed that they will fully support each format equally. I have no problems with that. However, they are NOT doing that. Most of the missing titles are NOT IME. Why haven't they released the NON-IME titles?! And, why did they shaft Blu-ray on the lossless audio titles, as well? Warner is not keep to their word.


I can hazard a guess. The non-IME movies for the most part are older flicks, such as Casablanca and Forbidden Planet etc., just didn't sell that well. With the cost of BD replication, they may be losses, especially considering the BD demographic.
J
EDIT: I'm really happy overall with what Warner has done. Without them, both formats would have been stillborn.