So where is HD DVD's PR?

So many arguments, so much complaining...

Can Toshiba really not afford it? Are they being cheap or just clueless?




Please don't delete this thread. This question keeps coming up, but people keep changing the subject with more arguments.

Target, Blockbuster, BJ's...
Blu-Ray keeps buying visibility, and HD DVD keeps responding:
"Blu-Ray is doing this, but it's not so important because..."
"Blu-Ray is doing this, but it's not so important because..."
"Blu-Ray is doing this, but it's not so important because..."

All those 'not so important because' begin to really add up IMO.
When is Toshiba going to buy visibility and make Blu-Ray respond?

HD DVD needs to learn that PR isn't just about downplaying failures.

Blu-Ray keeps buying visibility, and HD DVD keeps responding:

First of all, is it HD DVD that is verbally responding, or just HD DVD supproters on the AVS forum? It's pretty much the latter, I think.

But to your main point, no one knows the underpinnings of each side's strategy, other than the obvious Blu-ray buys PR, HD DVD reduces player prices. For all the advertising, hyperbole and bluster from the Blu-ray camp to date, can anyone really say that the 2:1 lead they have is the result of anything more than the PS3 install base.

I guess some sort of logic says that if all anyone sees is Blu-ray, then all anyone will buy is Blu-ray. So then the point is that HD DVD needs visibility. Maybe they don't believe that visibility is of much value right now. Maybe they feel that the time for the visibility is after they have sold 1,000,000+ cheap players (their number, not mine). Whereas Blu-ray might feel they need to wrap the war up this year, and so they are going all out to do that, HD DVD might be convinced that the war cannot be won this year, and that this visibility is a waste of dollars and energy right now.

No one knows, but this thread is sure to elicit much speculation.

First of all, is it HD DVD that is verbally responding, or just HD DVD supproters on the AVS forum? It's pretty much the latter, I think.
I was referring to the response announcements that were made after each of Blu-Ray's recent moves.

But to your main point, no one knows the underpinnings of each side's strategy, other than the obvious Blu-ray buys PR, HD DVD reduces player prices. For all the advertising, hyperbole and bluster from the Blu-ray camp to date, can anyone really say that the 2:1 lead they have is the result of anything more than the PS3 install base.

I guess some sort of logic says that if all anyone sees is Blu-ray, then all anyone will buy is Blu-ray. So then the point is that HD DVD needs visibility. Maybe they don't believe that visibility is of much value right now. Maybe they feel that the time for the visibility is after they have sold 1,000,000+ cheap players (their number, not mine). Whereas Blu-ray might feel they need to wrap the war up this year, and so they are going all out to do that, HD DVD might be convinced that the war cannot be won this year, and that this visibility is a waste of dollars and energy right now.

No one knows, but this thread is sure to elicit much speculation.

Good response.

First of all, is it HD DVD that is verbally responding, or just HD DVD supproters on the AVS forum? It's pretty much the latter, I think.

But to your main point, no one knows the underpinnings of each side's strategy, other than the obvious Blu-ray buys PR, HD DVD reduces player prices. For all the advertising, hyperbole and bluster from the Blu-ray camp to date, can anyone really say that the 2:1 lead they have is the result of anything more than the PS3 install base.

I guess some sort of logic says that if all anyone sees is Blu-ray, then all anyone will buy is Blu-ray. So then the point is that HD DVD needs visibility. Maybe they don't believe that visibility is of much value right now. Maybe they feel that the time for the visibility is after they have sold 1,000,000+ cheap players (their number, not mine). Whereas Blu-ray might feel they need to wrap the war up this year, and so they are going all out to do that, HD DVD might be convinced that the war cannot be won this year, and that this visibility is a waste of dollars and energy right now.

No one knows, but this thread is sure to elicit much speculation.

Totally agree.
Keep it close... make them spend... make them run... drag them on... steal their ball.

All my, admittedly anecdotal, experiences clearly show BD is winning the mind share battle with HD DVD. Therefore, do I think HD DVD needs to increase its visibility? Hell yes, if they want to be around in 2009 they'd better.

...Blu-ray buys PR, HD DVD reduces player prices.

Yes, and I know people will think I'm crazy, but I don't think this strategy is going to work like they hope it will. For HD DVD, the CE company (note the use of the singular here) and the studios are incongruent on pricing. For the studios, HD is all about charging a premium in order to replace their dwindling margin on SD DVDs. For Toshiba, price is their main advantage, so they continue their race to the bottom hoping to pick up adopters before they'd normally be ready. In my opinion, an adopter that would buy an HD DVD player at $199.99 or lower is not going to be willing to pay $34.99 for 300 for example. Note here that I am referring to the average consumer that buys their HW and SW at BM retailers and not online.

BD has the more tride and true model with CE companies and studios congruent on their pricing. They're trying to keep the margins up for both sides, and they are trying to reach the tiers of adopters in their appropriate order. Film enthusiasts will be willing to spend more on hardware and software if there is content. BD has the content, and you can see that they'll be pressing this advantage in the 4Q already as they continue their PR onslaught.

All my, admittedly anecdotal, experiences clearly show BD is winning the mind share battle with HD DVD. Therefore, do I think HD DVD needs to increase its visibility? Hell yes, if they want to be around in 2009 they'd better.



Yes, and I know people will think I'm crazy, but I don't think this strategy is going to work like they hope it will. For HD DVD, the CE company (note the use of the singular here) and the studios are incongruent on pricing. For the studios, HD is all about charging a premium in order to replace their dwindling margin on SD DVDs. For Toshiba, price is their main advantage, so they continue their race to the bottom hoping to pick up adopters before they'd normally be ready. In my opinion, an adopter that would buy an HD DVD player at $199.99 or lower is not going to be willing to pay $34.99 for 300 for example. Note here that I am referring to the average consumer that buys their HW and SW at BM retailers and not online.

BD has the more tride and true model with CE companies and studios congruent on their pricing. They're trying to keep the margins up for both sides, and they are trying to reach the tiers of adopters in their appropriate order. Film enthusiasts will be willing to spend more on hardware and software if there is content. BD has the content, and you can see that they'll be pressing this advantage in the 4Q already as they continue their PR onslaught.


DING DING DING, we have a winner.

It's not about J6P yet, it won't be for years. It's about the enthusiast, he goes where the content is, end of story.

At some point a lot of HD-DVD supporters here are going to have to be held accountable for just being plain wrong

Accountable for what?! Making the BDA drop stand-alone prices down from the original $1200-$1500. Using AVC instead of Mpeg-2 codecs. Re-mastering The Fifth Element. Forcing BD50 into production. Ok. Guilty as charged.

Accountable for what?! Making the BDA drop stand-alone prices down from the original $1200-$1500. Using AVC instead of Mpeg-2 codecs. Re-mastering The Fifth Element. Getting BD50 into production. Ok. Guilty as charged.


Accountable for convincing people on the fence that it's all ok and to buy into a format that is going to go down in flames.

Right now, I'd feel guilty about recommending HD DVD to anyone.

Right now, I'd feel guilty about recommending HD DVD to anyone

But you wouldn't feel guilty about recommending a Blu-ray player that will not support the iinteractivity (and hence movie features) mandated by the yet-to-be-completed spec?

But you woldn't feel guilty about recommending a Blu-ray player that will not support the iinteractivity (and hence movie features) mandated by the yet-to-be-complete spec?


Nah, just recommend a PS3.

But you woldn't feel guilty about recommending a Blu-ray player that will not support the iinteractivity (and hence movie features) mandated by the yet-to-be-completed spec?

I wouldn't feel guilty recommending the PS3. Not one bit.

I can honestly say I'm in no hurry to go online with a movie disc to buy ringtones for my cell phone.

I wouldn't feel guilty recommending the PS3. Not one bit.

Listen, I'm sure many HD DVD supporters also don't feel guilty recommending an HD-A2 for $199-$250 plus 5 free movies. I was more answering the other poster's point about feeling guilty recommending a format. I think the whole idea of feeling "guilty" is ridiculous. We better watch out, or someone will start an AVS poll about feeling guilty. Seriously...

Maybe Blu-Ray is spending and making those moves because it has to. It may not be evident right now, but at the end of this year, when the low cost chinese HD DVD players will finally hit the shelves, the one at disadvantage will be Blu-Ray.

It has to fight back now, and with all his force to counter the massive market advantage that HD DVD will gain. HD DVD is doing nothing because it's not the one that will be at disadvantage.

When the format war will shift from the elite market (600-300$) to the mass market (150$-99$) next year, pushing the sales up to an order of magnitude (as happened when the chinese DVDs entered the market years ago), Blu-Ray will be cut out from the war because of his more expensive technology. It HAS to fight now, when the battle is still in the elite range.

Maybe Blu-Ray is spending and making those moves because it has to. It may not be evident right now, but at the end of this year, when the low cost chinese HD DVD players will finally hit the shelves, the one at disadvantage will be Blu-Ray.

It has to fight back now, and with all his force to counter the massive market advantage that HD DVD will gain. HD DVD is doing nothing because it's not the one that will be at disadvantage.

When the format war will shift from the elite market (600-300$) to the mass market (150$-99$) next year, pushing the sales up to an order of magnitude (as happened when the chinese DVDs entered the market years ago), Blu-Ray will be cut out from the war because of his more expensive technology. It HAS to fight now, when the battle is still in the elite range.


If the mythical HD DVD player from the land of Cathay is your only beacon in the storm, I am afraid you are going to crash hard.

Why in the world would a Chinese manufacturer release a player when Toshiba has effectively sucked all of the margin out of the product?

If the mythical HD DVD player from the land of Cathay is your only beacon in the storm, I am afraid you are going to crash hard.

Why in the world would a Chinese manufacturer release a player when Toshiba has effectively sucked all of the margin out of the product?

Agreed. I'm placing a gentleman's bet that the Chinese Warriors will be wearing Blu-armor.

Agreed. I'm placing a gentleman's bet that the Chinese Warriors will be wearing Blu-armor.
+1. I've been talking about this since March and I still believe this to be the case. It's going to be very difficult for a 3rd party manufacturer to come in and compete with Toshiba's price slashing because there's much less money to be made on the red side.

+1. I've been talking about this since March and I still believe this to be the case. It's going to be very difficult for a 3rd party manufacturer to come in and compete with Toshiba's price slashing because there's much less money to be made on the red side.


+2..

There's margin in the BD camp. Why oh why don't the HD DVD guys see that dumping price so rapidly actually hurts more than helps. They'll never get another CE manufacturer involved ever again.

If the mythical HD DVD player from the land of Cathay is your only beacon in the storm, I am afraid you are going to crash hard.


There is nothing mythical about the HD DVD chinese players. Venturer presented the first one of the players manifactured by the chinese Alco back in march at Ces2007:

Venturer SHD7000 HD DVD - click to enlarge...
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3900/venturerhddvdplayer04cu4.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/5540/venturer02tp6.jpg)

source: http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/03/25/meet-the-venture-shd7000-hd-dvd-player/

There is nothing mythical about the HD DVD chinese players. Venturer presented the first one of the players manifactured by the chinese Alco back in march at Ces2007:

Venturer SHD7000 HD DVD
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3900/venturerhddvdplayer04cu4.jpg

source: http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/03/25/meet-the-venture-shd7000-hd-dvd-player/


Showing one @ a CE show is different than releasing one. Alot has changed since CES 2007.

I am amazed that people are still saying HD-DVD is going to win.There is going to be a lot of crow served here at AVSforum.

No doubt. They've got no one to blame but themselves. :)

+3 BD is where the profit is for Chinese companies.

(And as to the 'price is king' argument, consider Creative vs Apple in mp3 players.)

+3 BD is where the profit is for Chinese companies.

(And as to the 'price is king' argument, consider Creative vs Apple in mp3 players.)


There isn't any...

Chinese means cheaper, but for some reason the HD DVD camp thinks they will just release a player for kicks. Making profit seems to escape their thought process.

The HD DVD players still aren't all that inexpensive to produce, and I would argue that BD has a cost per unit advantage that completely buries HD DVD... (PS3)

Additionally, since they haven't dropped their pants on the margin, people can make money.

There is nothing mythical about the HD DVD chinese players. Venturer presented the first one of the players manifactured by the chinese Alco back in march at Ces2007:

Venturer SHD7000 HD DVD - click to enlarge...
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3900/venturerhddvdplayer04cu4.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/5540/venturer02tp6.jpg)

source: http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/03/25/meet-the-venture-shd7000-hd-dvd-player/

Remember what the price of the cheapest Toshiba player was at that time?

Remember what the price of the cheapest Toshiba player was at that time?

$399, I believe.

Here's another interpretation of Toshiba price cuts.

Toshiba planned to produce and sell 1.8 million. Their production planning was for 1.8 million. Now that sales are way below expectations, they have no choice but to cut price (and use the remaining drives in their laptops).

$399


And if I am also correct the PS3 onslaught hadn't quite taken effect yet in software BD sales.

Alot has changed since the BDA and their marketing machine started ramping up. Back then, HD DVD had the advantage but now they are holding on for dear life.

Agreed. I'm placing a gentleman's bet that the Chinese Warriors will be wearing Blu-armor.
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=133039&postcount=1365

Showing one @ a CE show is different than releasing one. Alot has changed since CES 2007.

Do you know of any annoucement from Venturer about a change of plans? Because at the moment there is no reason to believe that Venturer cancelled the product, especially considering the fact that Amir itself confirmed that low cost chinese HD DVD players are coming later this year. And all the Fuh Yuan thing, if anything, confirmed at least that chinese manifacturers are on the move and searching buyers for the US market.

At some point a lot of HD-DVD supporters here are going to have to be held accountable for just being plain wrong, and repeatedly wrong. There is going to be a lot of crow served here at AVSforum.

Don't make me bust out what the Blu-Ray folks were saying before both formats were released. Or after HD-DVD came out before the Blu-Ray launch. Or after the Blu-Ray launch but after the PS3 came out. Or after the PS3 came out but before Fox & Disney released movies. Or after Fox & Disney released movies but before the PS3 price drop.

I don't think anyone has been a Kreskin on this board so far, so it's a little early to be serving up heaping plates of black birds.

+2..

There's margin in the BD camp. Why oh why don't the HD DVD guys see that dumping price so rapidly actually hurts more than helps. They'll never get another CE manufacturer involved ever again.

I guess the good part of this is that Toshiba won't be taking any other CE manufacturers down into the toilet with them.

And if I am also correct the PS3 onslaught hadn't quite taken effect yet in software BD sales.

Alot has changed since the BDA and their marketing machine started ramping up. Back then, HD DVD had the advantage but now they are holding on for dear life.

60/40 is holding on for dear life? Right'o.

Here's another interpretation of Toshiba price cuts.

Toshiba planned to produce and sell 1.8 million. Their production planning was for 1.8 million. Now that sales are way below expectations, they have no choice but to cut price (and use the remaining drives in their laptops).

That's as good of an interpretation of Toshiba's price cuts as any I've seen.

60/40 is holding on for dear life? Right'o.


You can keep quoting SI numbers, but we all really know that the numbers that are count are the YTD. Having no competition for the better part of a year....

Please.

I don't think anyone has been a Kreskin on this board so far, so it's a little early to be serving up heaping plates of black birds.

OTOH, it's never too early to eat some humble pie.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=133039&postcount=1365
;)

If profit is nothing more than the remainder left over after all expenses are deducted from revenue then the simple question is would you want Toshiba to raise their hardware prices just so they can spend that money on marketing similar to BD? As a consumer the answer to that IMO is no, thanks. I like the show me don't tell me approach of delivering true value. In comparison the value proposition is crystal clear. HD-DVD hardware is half the price of BD and delivers for all intents and purposes identical results (if not better when you factor in current interactivity).

All of BDs announcements are about how they limit the consumers choice. You can't buy from certain studios in hi-def unless it's BD is a common pronouncement. I don't see HD DVD touting their Univeral exclusivity like the hammer that BD does. Blockbuster and other retailers carrying BD at the exclusion of HD-DVD is about limiting consumers choices as well.

Why are we so happy that a large group of corporations spent all of this money to develop a redundant format and then proceeds to force it down our throats to pay the bill? It seems bizarre to support this behavior unless you like being taken advantage of.

By reading the posts here and throughout these forums it's interesting to see the supporters of each format follow suit with the strategy of their preferred format.

If profit is nothing more than the remainder left over after all expenses are deducted from revenue then the simple question is would you want Toshiba to raise their hardware prices just so they can spend that money on marketing similar to BD? As a consumer the answer to that IMO is no, thanks. I like the show me don't tell me approach of delivering true value. In comparison the value proposition is crystal clear. HD-DVD hardware is half the price of BD and delivers for all intents and purposes identical results (if not better when you factor in current interactivity).

All of BDs announcements are about how they limit the consumers choice. You can't buy from certain studios in hi-def unless it's BD is a common pronouncement. I don't see HD DVD touting their Univeral exclusivity like the hammer that BD does. Blockbuster and other retailers carrying BD at the exclusion of HD-DVD is about limiting consumers choices as well.

Why are we so happy that a large group of corporations spent all of this money to develop a redundant format and then proceeds to force it down our throats to pay the bill? It seems bizarre to support this behavior unless you like being taken advantage of.

By reading the posts here and throughout these forums it's interesting to see the supporters of each format follow suit with the strategy of their preferred format.

Choice is ok when buying ketchup, but a format is completely different. I don't have the energy to go into all of the nuts and bolts, but without content, you don't have a format.

HD-DVD hardware is half the price of BD and delivers for all intents and purposes identical results (if not better when you factor in current interactivity).
It's not identical value when I can't buy most of the biggest blockbusters on the format with cheaper hardware.

In this respect, the closest analogy would be Apple to PC. Yes, you can buy software to do what you need to on the Apple, but PC has more of the popular software because it has more developers for it. Not to say that Universal is a bad studio, because they have an amazing catalog, but no one can deny that their box office performance over the past several years - and 2007 is no exception thus far - has been mediocre at best.

Why are we so happy that a large group of corporations spent all of this money to develop a redundant format and then proceeds to force it down our throats to pay the bill? It seems bizarre to support this behavior unless you like being taken advantage of.
Sorry, but the place where we're really being taken to the cleaners is the disc price. HD DVD's hardware pricing is great for the consumer, but we're still paying a huge price premium for the software, which makes the one-time investment in hardware much less important than it would be otherwise.

By reading the posts here and throughout these forums it's interesting to see the supporters of each format follow suit with the strategy of their preferred format.
This is simply the nature of forum behavior, and not particular to the HD/BD scenario. You can see the same pattern in places like political forums and sports discussion forums.

I don't see HD DVD touting their Univeral exclusivity


L O L

Try washing your eyes out!

By reading the posts here and throughout these forums it's interesting to see the supporters of each format follow suit with the strategy of their preferred format.

That may simply be because many people chose a format based on which format they believe will win (since they simply want one format), and thus which strategies they believe are best.
I, for one, belong in that category. I believe that Sony learned the right lessons from their Betamax disaster: control content and you will control the standard. And they made a brilliant strategic move (at least from an ex-ante perspective) to leverage their biggest asset (the PS franchise) to overcome the chicken-and-egg problem that any format faces.

Toshiba, who thought they had won the war already, completely overestimated demand for their players (assuming the war was over and all studios would go neutral). To keep up with Sony's solution to the chicken-and-egg problem, they are forced to sell their players at rock-bottom prices, losing any margins on the hardware in the hopes of recovering them through licensing income later on.

As to the Chinese coming to the rescue: the Chinese are very good when it comes to commodity products. But for a completely new product category that is in the early stages of its PLC? What is the likelihood that they make a reasonable HD DVD player when the big-brand players have so many technical issues?

But note that it suffices for Toshiba to survive. Consumers will be forced to buy dual-format players, paying their dues to both camps. Studios can choose the format based on their technical/cost requirements. And Toshiba can recover as much as possible from its original investment.

And all the cost benefits from a unique format are down the drain. But that issue is debated on other threads so I won't go into that.

Accountable for convincing people on the fence that it's all ok and to buy into a format that is going to go down in flames.

Right now, I'd feel guilty about recommending HD DVD to anyone.

What about Blu-ray supporters, who have been claiming that HD DVD is dead since 2005? I can bring back that poll if you'd like, showing all those BD lovers claiming HD DVD was dead in the water.

HD DVD isn't dead, and it isn't going to die anytime soon. Shall we hold the Bd supporters accountable for their constant FUD?

I am amazed that people are still saying HD-DVD is going to win.

I don't remember who but someone on this forum compared buying into HD-DVD at this point to buying tickets for the ride on the Hindenburg.

At some point a lot of HD-DVD supporters here are going to have to be held accountable for just being plain wrong, and repeatedly wrong. There is going to be a lot of crow served here at AVSforum.

Held accountable for what? Telling friends and family that they can enjoy HD movies right now for $249 or less as opposed to shelling out $500 for a BD player?

Anyone who has asked me about HD DVD or purchased a player (about five guys) knows the 'risks' of the format war. They also know that they will get to watch plenty of HD material for the next couple of years and that they are buying a player that does a top notch job of upscaling their SD DVDs.

Funny how the above is 'buying tickets on the Hindenburg' but recommending someone shell out $500 or more on a 1st gen BD player that won't do the next gen features is not. :rolleyes:

Seriously krinkle, you are letting your hatred of HD DVD cloud your arguments. If HD DVD is such a non relavant entity as you say then certainly you should spend more of your time enjoying your PS3 and less time here spreading FUD.

Accountable for convincing people on the fence that it's all ok and to buy into a format that is going to go down in flames.

Right now, I'd feel guilty about recommending HD DVD to anyone.

Sorry, but that's just stupid, nothing is going down in flames if hardware support continues to steadily climb.

I would feel guilty telling someone to buy a $500 + game console when I know if Blu-ray wants to get anywhere they have to come up with a -$300 full spec players. I'd just come off as a SONY PS3 shill.

Maybe Blu-Ray is spending and making those moves because it has to. It may not be evident right now, but at the end of this year, when the low cost chinese HD DVD players will finally hit the shelves, the one at disadvantage will be Blu-Ray.

It has to fight back now, and with all his force to counter the massive market advantage that HD DVD will gain. HD DVD is doing nothing because it's not the one that will be at disadvantage.

When the format war will shift from the elite market (600-300$) to the mass market (150$-99$) next year, pushing the sales up to an order of magnitude (as happened when the chinese DVDs entered the market years ago), Blu-Ray will be cut out from the war because of his more expensive technology. It HAS to fight now, when the battle is still in the elite range.

Toshiba launched its second gen players about six months after the first gen players. How long does it take to develop these cheap chinese players?

So where is HD DVD's PR?

So many arguments, so much complaining...

Can Toshiba really not afford it? Are they being cheap or just clueless?




Please don't delete this thread. This question keeps coming up, but people keep changing the subject with more arguments.

Target, Blockbuster, BJ's...
Blu-Ray keeps buying visibility, and HD DVD keeps responding:
"Blu-Ray is doing this, but it's not so important because..."
"Blu-Ray is doing this, but it's not so important because..."
"Blu-Ray is doing this, but it's not so important because..."

All those 'not so important because' begin to really add up IMO.
When is Toshiba going to buy visibility and make Blu-Ray respond?

HD DVD needs to learn that PR isn't just about downplaying failures.



What do you want them to say? About all they can say now is

"Jez, we are giving you people the player for free when you figure in the movies, what more do you want?" or they could say "There is no advantage to our format, unless you count "dvd extras" or they could say "We got our ass's handed to us daily for the past 8 months" or they could say the truth, its over.

Here's another interpretation of Toshiba price cuts.

Toshiba planned to produce and sell 1.8 million. Their production planning was for 1.8 million. Now that sales are way below expectations, they have no choice but to cut price (and use the remaining drives in their laptops).
Sounds like Sony's position with the PS3, doesn't it?

Sorry, but that's just stupid, nothing is going down in flames if hardware support continues to steadily climb.

I would feel guilty telling someone to buy a $500 + game console when I know if Blu-ray wants to get anywhere they have to come up with a -$300 full spec players. I'd just come off as a SONY PS3 shill.


No, you'd be recommending the format with the content.

HD DVD zealots make me laugh because they act as if everything is equal.

You are losing in content.
You are losing in mind share.
You are losing in sales.

You are winning in price.

and????

By the time this hits mass market the price difference isn't even going to be there, heck, I think HD DVD won't even be there either.

You are winning in the one metric that means nothing right now. Price doesn't seem to be causing BD alot of headaches, as they are winning, and they will continue to build a lead.

Toshiba launched its second gen players about six months after the first gen players. How long does it take to develop these cheap chinese players?

To act as if Blu-ray buying more end-caps to push $500 players is a sure thing is just nonsense. Even the most ardent BD fudster has to admit $500 is not anywhere near an entry price on a slow-moving format.

Who's missing from all this premature BD victory party #3? Best Buy, Amazon, Costco, Walmart, and Circut City. Until you know for fact what the HD landscape is going look like this holiday and beyond, this glee is all woefully premature.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/211486/null#comments

More PR pain for HD DVD.

Sounds like Sony's position with the PS3, doesn't it?

I indeed think they both face the same problem in that respect. In Sony's case, production problems with the cell and with the blue lasers and the staggered launch may have kept demand and supply more in balance. So they have been less pressured to cut the price of the PS3 but are facing the music now (although they mentioned a summer price cut a long time ago when discussing the cost of the PS3).
(The MS suggestion that they may launch before the holidays a $399 version with completely no backward compatibility - for those who buy their first PS - would be in line with this thinking.)

No, you'd be recommending the format with the content.

HD DVD zealots make me laugh because they act as if everything is equal.

You are losing in content.
You are losing in mind share.
You are losing in sales.

You are winning in price.

and????

By the time this hits mass market the price difference isn't even going to be there, heck, I think HD DVD won't even be there either.

You are winning in the one metric that means nothing right now. Price doesn't seem to be causing BD alot of headaches, as they are winning, and they will continue to build a lead.


Sorry, but the hyperbole of your posts reek of "zelotry," even if HD DVD were out-selling Blu-ray, I wouldn't feel the need post all this U-rah!-rah!, BD rules! drivel.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/211486/null#comments

More PR pain for HD DVD.

Ya, it's funny that Target has come out and made a statement that they have not chosen BD over HD DVD and will continue to carry both formats in the stores but it's gotten blown out of proportion and now there's an article on Engadget indicating that Target will do a retraction statement.

Basically Sony is taking every purchased end cap, special deal, etc, and getting it into the press to win over consumer mind share. Even the guy who wrote the above article seems to have fallen for a good deal of their bravado.

At the end of the day mind share is a huge deal. If Toshiba and MS can't do something to generate the kind of big, in your face, PR blitz that blu-ray seems to get every week, it's going to be a very tough selling season for them this fall.

The overwhelming feeling I get about BD from Sony is that it's do or die for them. HD-DVD? I get a 'meh' feeling from Toshiba. That they would like their format to succeed but that they're not willing to stake their company on it as Sony has done.

Sorry, but the hyperbole of your posts reek of "zelotry," even if HD DVD were out-selling Blu-ray, I wouldn't feel the need post all this U-rah!-rah!, BD rules! drivel.


My only desire here is for one format.

If you check my post history, I was a big cheerleader of the HD DVD format until I realized that a loss was inevitable.. Sony and the BDA are running rings around HD DVD in the marketing department and this is the most important part of this fight right now. Perception.
HD DVD put up a fight, not a good one in my estimation, but now it's time to throw in the towel so that we can all enjoy HD optical. Holding out just holds up adoption.

That's my only agenda. One Format. BD is going to be that format.

You can keep quoting SI numbers, but we all really know that the numbers that are count are the YTD. Having no competition for the better part of a year....

Please.

No. Otherwise the fanbois on the other side would have been premature in writing blu heads off from June to November. This format "war" is longterm. Not when you fanboi says to stop counting and how to count.

My only desire here is for one format.

If you check my post history, I was a big cheerleader of the HD DVD format until I realized that a loss was inevitable.. Sony and the BDA are running rings around HD DVD in the marketing department and this is the most important part of this fight right now. Perception.
HD DVD put up a fight, not a good one in my estimation, but now it's time to throw in the towel so that we can all enjoy HD optical. Holding out just holds up adoption.

That's my only agenda. One Format. BD is going to be that format.

This is I think where you and other blu-ray cheerleaders are wrong. Two formats is not hurting adoption, because at current prices this is still a game for early adopters and the technicrats of society.

If anything someone buying HD DVD exposes them to HDM and makes an eventual transition to Blu-ray an easier pill for them to swallow.

Are some consumers "confused and afraid to jump in" because of two formats? Certainly. These are the same consumers who are afraid to spend more than $99 on a disc player from either format.

This is I think where you and other blu-ray cheerleaders are wrong. Two formats is not hurting adoption, because at current prices this is still a game for early adopters and the technicrats of society.

If anything someone buying HD DVD exposes them to HDM and makes an eventual transition to Blu-ray an easier pill for them to swallow.

Are some consumers "confused and afraid to jump in" because of two formats? Certainly. These are the same consumers who are afraid to spend more than $99 on a disc player from either format.


I call BS.

I personally know 10-15 people who would buy in RIGHT now @ 400-600 dollars, but don't because of the war.

These are guys in my demographic, have a little disposable income to throw around, like technology but don't want to buy the loser.

The more PR battles that BD wins, the closer they get to getting in the game.

IF there were one format from the inception they'd already be in .

My only desire here is for one format.

If you check my post history, I was a big cheerleader of the HD DVD format until I realized that a loss was inevitable.. Sony and the BDA are running rings around HD DVD in the marketing department and this is the most important part of this fight right now. Perception.
HD DVD put up a fight, not a good one in my estimation, but now it's time to throw in the towel so that we can all enjoy HD optical. Holding out just holds up adoption.

That's my only agenda. One Format. BD is going to be that format.

Hahaha. "Holding out just holds up adoption". What a lark. Both operating concurrently this early in the process isn't holding up anything except driving prices down (well with the exception of another overpriced Blu Ray player by Denon) and forcing content (although Disney and Fox are turning into a joke for their meagre releases). You got into the HD DVD game early because it was affordable for you and yet you would deny that same situation for new adopters. Shame on you.

Hahaha. "Holding out just holds up adoption". What a lark. Both operating concurrently this early in the process isn't holding up anything except driving prices down (well with the exception of another overpriced Blu Ray player by Denon) and forcing content (although Disney and Fox are turning into a joke for their meagre releases). You got into the HD DVD game early because it was affordable for you and yet you would deny that same situation for new adopters. Shame on you.


I got into the HD DVD game early because it was the only format available.

Disney's meager releases?

Heh, you mean unlike Universal's churn and burn craptastic transfers of late?

Hmm...

I call BS.

I personally know 10-15 people who would buy in RIGHT now @ 400-600 dollars, but don't because of the war.

These are guys in my demographic, have a little disposable income to throw around, like technology but don't want to buy the loser.

The more PR battles that BD wins, the closer they get to getting in the game.

IF there were one format from the inception they'd already be in .

Well, to hear it from you guys BD has already won, so what is the hold up? Some Universal titles?

Seriously, with all of the cards that BD is holding right now there is no reason for anyone not to "jump in" unless.

1. They don't like paying $500-$600 for a 1st gen player that won't do everything the format requires down the road.

2. They don't actually believe that BD has won.

Well, to hear it from you guys BD has already won, so what is the hold up? Some Universal titles?

Seriously, with all of the cards that BD is holding right now there is no reason for anyone not to "jump in" unless.

1. They don't like paying $500-$600 for a 1st gen player that won't do everything the format requires down the road.

2. They don't actually believe that BD has won.


Or they are waiting for the holiday price drops... Which I know to be true. :)

I've never said HD DVD didn't have it's pluses... I just don't think it's enough to win. The BDA will have this wrapped up by the end of the year in all but name.

I got into the HD DVD game early because it was the only format available.

Disney's meager releases?

Heh, you mean unlike Universal's churn and burn craptastic transfers of late?

Hmm...

Very few transfers are as poor as some that are being reviewed. Most I have are good to very good and I purchase a lot of Universal titles. On the other hand whenever I go to use my PS3 I keep looking at that Disney catalogue list which they are more interested in releasing on the Xbox Live than Blu Ray with all the concurrent problems of overcompressed content. Now that's a lark.

Or they are waiting for the holiday price drops... Which I know to be true. :)

I've never said HD DVD didn't have it's pluses... I just don't think it's enough to win. The BDA will have this wrapped up by the end of the year in all but name.

So which is it, they won't buy now because of holiday price drops or they won't buy now because of HD DVD and the uncertainty of the war?

You said not more than two posts ago (I can quote you if you'd like) that these guys have no problems shelling out $500-$600 for a BD player but won't because of the format war.

Now you're saying that they're holding out for better holiday deals, despite the format war.

So which is it? :rolleyes:

Well, to hear it from you guys BD has already won, so what is the hold up? Some Universal titles?

Seriously, with all of the cards that BD is holding right now there is no reason for anyone not to "jump in" unless.

1. They don't like paying $500-$600 for a 1st gen player that won't do everything the format requires down the road.

2. They don't actually believe that BD has won.
"All we need is just a little patience." - Guns N' Roses

AVS Forum amuses me. Everyone here thinks the format war should have been/is already won. Even with as much industry presence as we have here (insiders, shills, and all), winning the hearts and minds of AVSers isn't really at the top of anyone's priority list.

Blu-ray claims of outright victory this early are of course ludicrous, but expected.

HD DVD claims of everything being perfectly fine are equally ludicrous, and equally expected.

In the month we've seen a gradual shift in momentum towards Blu-ray. It's still too early for most of the decisions that have been made recently to impact the format war on the ground, but that shift in momentum is definitely there. You can see it in the behavior and attitudes from the most prolific posters from both sides of the fence. The Blu-ray supporters are largely positive and optimistic, and their posts are aggressive and confident, even when they get their facts wrong. HD DVD supporters have largely fallen back into a defensive posture, with an ultra-critical view of fact-checking in the interests of denying what they don't want to hear.

My point isn't about which side is "right". It doesn't matter who is right on AVS, except for respect and bragging rights. Our discussions here generally won't result in meaningful shifts in the sales numbers, because no matter how much people here would like to think otherwise, we, the AVS early adopters, are now materially outnumbered by the rest of the people who have bought into high definition.

"All we need is just a little patience." - Guns N' Roses

AVS Forum amuses me. Everyone here thinks the format war should have been/is already won. Even with as much industry presence as we have here (insiders, shills, and all), winning the hearts and minds of AVSers isn't really at the top of anyone's priority list.

Blu-ray claims of outright victory this early are of course ludicrous, but expected.

HD DVD claims of everything being perfectly fine are equally ludicrous, and equally expected.

In the month we've seen a gradual shift in momentum towards Blu-ray. It's still too early for most of the decisions that have been made recently to impact the format war on the ground, but that shift in momentum is definitely there. You can see it in the behavior and attitudes from the most prolific posters from both sides of the fence. The Blu-ray supporters are largely positive and optimistic, and their posts are aggressive and confident, even when they get their facts wrong. HD DVD supporters have largely fallen back into a defensive posture, with an ultra-critical view of fact-checking in the interests of denying what they don't want to hear.

My point isn't about which side is "right". It doesn't matter who is right on AVS, except for respect and bragging rights. Our discussions here generally won't result in meaningful shifts in the sales numbers, because no matter how much people here would like to think otherwise, we, the AVS early adopters, are now materially outnumbered by the rest of the people who have bought into high definition.

Excellent post . . . . unfortunately it will fall on deaf ears

Mainstream press will catch on that BD is offering crippled players at outrageous prices, and the majority of BD disk sales have been to gamers who will buy few of them. The sales boost to real movie fans from low cost HD-DVD players this winter will flip a few BD exclsuive studios.

Just to counter some of the BD BS above :p

I do not know about the rest of the US but in CA specifically the bay area there are HD-DVD hardware commercials on all the network channels, except Fox. Also HD-DVD hardware adds are in several magazines. This is a major form of mass marketing if not the best.

I have only seen BluRay mentioned in TV for DVD releases, there is a few magazine ads aswell as a full page in the new Costco Connection. They need some more tv exposure besides corny product placement in tv shows.

Agreed. I'm placing a gentleman's bet that the Chinese Warriors will be wearing Blu-armor.

I'm your Huckleberry. Name your terms. The stipulation must be whatever format the Chinese embrace so if 10 companies exist and 6 are HD DVD I win or it they're Blu-ray you win.

Perhaps a signature bet where you must acknowledget you battled hmurchison and lost. Are you game?

Please don't delete this thread. This question keeps coming up, but people keep changing the subject with more arguments.

Target, Blockbuster, BJ's...
Blu-Ray keeps buying visibility, and HD DVD keeps responding:
"Blu-Ray is doing this, but it's not so important because..."
"Blu-Ray is doing this, but it's not so important because..."
"Blu-Ray is doing this, but it's not so important because..."

All those 'not so important because' begin to really add up IMO.
.


LOOOL so true, i bet 100 bucks, if Universal goes neutral the HD DVD zealots still say " Blu-ray is doing this, but it's not so important because..."

LOOOL so true, i bet 100 bucks, if Universal goes neutral the HD DVD zealots still say " Blu-ray is doing this, but it's not so important because..."

"zealot"? Explain how your commentary does not make you a zealot? If Universal goes neutral there will be many opinion and you're free to choose any one of them to substantiate your guess but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I call BS.

I personally know 10-15 people who would buy in RIGHT now @ 400-600 dollars, but don't because of the war.

These are guys in my demographic, have a little disposable income to throw around, like technology but don't want to buy the loser.

The more PR battles that BD wins, the closer they get to getting in the game.

IF there were one format from the inception they'd already be in .

LOL, yeah it's because of the format war, right. If there wasn't one prices would still be over $1000 for your beloved BD player and I'm sure those 10-15 people would all jump to buy at that price because there was only one format :rolleyes:

LOL, yeah it's because of the format war, right. If there wasn't one prices would still be over $1000 for your beloved BD player and I'm sure those 10-15 people would all jump to buy at that price because there was only one format :rolleyes:

LOL . perhaps he should have emphasized the word "little". My gf and I damn near spend $200 a month in wine. Don't give me this crap about "I've got the money but I'm afraid" especially when players are $200. You could rent the discs from Blockbuster or Netflix.

Does software matter in games? If so PS3 is toast. This battle is far from over. MS hasn't even pulled out big guns yet and HD DVD has taken what 10-15 "death blows" from Blu Ray and yet BR only has a 60/40 lead.

This Christmas will be a big test and I am personally buying HD DVD players for all my friends and family. Blu Ray had a big Christmas season last season with the PoS 3 and now the hype is over. Let's see how many 199 HD DVD's or 149 Add on's get done.

400 for a player is just out of reach for a gift, no matter what the titles. The average joe does not know who releases what and as long as both formats can play standard DVD's they don't see a need to choose one over another.

Mom and Dad don't car if lion king is sd or hd as long as they can play it in the flippin car to keep the kiddies quiet. We all care about things like lossless sound and bit rates so we are the ones "fighting the war"

Price will always beat features and software is a feature, look at what the best selling game console is the PS 2 not the best quality or HD games....price. Look at the Wii no hd, does not have the more "adult" games and it is wupping the PoS3

The guy thinks I can have HD DVD with no fox or disney or I can have nothing because 500 is too much to afford.

There is only one reason no one has dropped prices big on BR players because a 300 BR player would put a hurt on PoS 3 sales. A lot of people bought it because it was a cheap entre to BRD. It pained me but I did just to be able to accurately compare the formats.

Rest assured if all the studios were on all formats this war would be over, because the best BR can say is as good as HD DVD. Joe average would never pay for subtle differences. It is kind of a unique double edge sword, the CE companies are with BR because the margins are higher, if Toshiba keeps playing the price card BR will have to respond and once prices come down, margins get cut and then it is not so attractive for CE companies to stay exclusive.

Joe Consumer knows if he waits long enough prices will come down and he is in no hurry.

BRD is winning the PR battle but I think you will see a hardware shift in favor of HD DVD later this year. I could be wrong and my dislike of Sony is prob blinding me a bit, but after 25 years in the CE business disliking Sony is almost a forgone conclusion.

My gf and I damn near spend $200 a month in wine.

Ahhhh! So thats why you pimp HD-DVD so hard, you're drunk all the time :D

HD DVD/BD are global . . .

From July 28th:

Toshiba amps up marketing of HDTV, HD DVD in Australia

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/07/28/toshiba-amps-up-marketing-of-hdtv-hd-dvd-in-australia/

There are 50 million HDTV's in the USA. Less than 100 million world wide.

There are over 1 BILLION NTSC/PAL/SECAM TV's in the world.

Get the idea? You need a HDTV to watch HD movies.

Ahhhh! So thats why you pimp HD-DVD so hard, you're drunk all the time :D

:D That was laugh out loud funny my friend. You better be glad I'm not holding a Shiraz or I'd be needing a new keyboard.

Hell I'm fickle...you put a $200 Blu-ray player in front of me with halfway decent performance and it will be coming home with me.

Price...scratch that, low price is wonderful thing. I bought a 2GB SD card for my HP "point and crap" camera for $19. When I first got the camera this was like $60. This stuff drops so fast now.

My gf has a Nav+ GPS system in her Audi and we just got some music downloaded to SD cards and in one of the two SD slots. At this point it's like "why shuffle CDs through a 6-slot changer when 4GBs of instant music is available for $39.98?

The biggest danger facing HD DVD is likely not lack of content in the near future but inexpensive Blu-ray players. If Blu-ray can hit $299 this Christmas then things get a little more interesting.

"All we need is just a little patience." - Guns N' Roses

AVS Forum amuses me. Everyone here thinks the format war should have been/is already won. Even with as much industry presence as we have here (insiders, shills, and all), winning the hearts and minds of AVSers isn't really at the top of anyone's priority list.

Blu-ray claims of outright victory this early are of course ludicrous, but expected.

HD DVD claims of everything being perfectly fine are equally ludicrous, and equally expected.

In the month we've seen a gradual shift in momentum towards Blu-ray. It's still too early for most of the decisions that have been made recently to impact the format war on the ground, but that shift in momentum is definitely there. You can see it in the behavior and attitudes from the most prolific posters from both sides of the fence. The Blu-ray supporters are largely positive and optimistic, and their posts are aggressive and confident, even when they get their facts wrong. HD DVD supporters have largely fallen back into a defensive posture, with an ultra-critical view of fact-checking in the interests of denying what they don't want to hear.

My point isn't about which side is "right". It doesn't matter who is right on AVS, except for respect and bragging rights. Our discussions here generally won't result in meaningful shifts in the sales numbers, because no matter how much people here would like to think otherwise, we, the AVS early adopters, are now materially outnumbered by the rest of the people who have bought into high definition.


That's a very excellent summary.

I guess I am somewhat a Joe Consumer.
I do enjoy electronics and I usually have the newer stuff compared to my friends. I purchase the A2 only because of the 199 price and free movies. If there was a blu ray player for 199 and it was the cheaper then HD DVD I would have bought that. Right now with either format I will not buy a disc for $20-$35 (even on sale for $13 I will not buy) for me I would rather not waste $ on a movie I will watch once, maybe twice. I used to purchase DVD's all of the time, now I have about 300 that I never watch, some unopened. Now I just use BB online to rent. It does make me want a blu ray when I am at blockbuster and I see 120+ BR movies for rent. But I am not willing to spend $500 on a player.

I call BS.

I personally know 10-15 people who would buy in RIGHT now @ 400-600 dollars, but don't because of the war.

These are guys in my demographic, have a little disposable income to throw around, like technology but don't want to buy the loser.

The more PR battles that BD wins, the closer they get to getting in the game.

IF there were one format from the inception they'd already be in .

I did a straw-poll in my classic-horror DVD forum, here are the results thus far.

1) Do you listen to movie audio over your TV speakers? No – 15, Yes - 8
2) Do you know what "lossless audio" is without guessing? No – 17, Yes - 6
3) Do you care about "lossless audio"? No – 18, Yes – 5 (three of the five were just curious to know what it is)

For those who don't own either HD DVD or Blu-ray, what is the biggest factor holding you back?

A) Price - 6
B) The Format War - 6
C) You are happy with DVD and think it's not worth it - 15
D) You aren't seeing the type of films you want available - 6
E) You think both formats are destined to fail - 4

Since A & D are both price related, price seems very important, more than the content or the war itself.

Would you buy a hi-def format now if there were only one? Yes – 3, No - 12

I did a straw-poll in my classic-horror DVD forum, here are the results thus far.

1) Do you listen to movie audio over your TV speakers? No – 15, Yes - 8
2) Do you know what "lossless audio" is without guessing? No – 17, Yes - 6
3) Do you care about "lossless audio"? No – 18, Yes – 5 (three of the five were just curious to know what it is)

For those who don't own either HD DVD or Blu-ray, what is the biggest factor holding you back?

A) Price - 6
B) The Format War - 6
C) You are happy with DVD and think it's not worth it - 15
D) You aren't seeing the type of films you want available - 6
E) You think both formats are destined to fail - 4

Since A & D are both price related, price seems very important, more than the content or the war itself.

Would you buy a hi-def format now if there were only one? Yes – 3, No - 12

Intersting post. thank you.
J

Intersting post. thank you.
J

I thought so, in it's small way it shows apathy is big factor and price makes apathy easy. I don't think there are any in this forum who don't know what HD is or are unaware there are two formats, it's been bandied about for a good year now.

I did a straw-poll in my classic-horror DVD forum, here are the results thus far.

1) Do you listen to movie audio over your TV speakers? No – 15, Yes - 8
2) Do you know what "lossless audio" is without guessing? No – 17, Yes - 6
3) Do you care about "lossless audio"? No – 18, Yes – 5 (three of the five were just curious to know what it is)

For those who don't own either HD DVD or Blu-ray, what is the biggest factor holding you back?

A) Price - 6
B) The Format War - 6
C) You are happy with DVD and think it's not worth it - 15
D) You aren't seeing the type of films you want available - 6
E) You think both formats are destined to fail - 4

Since A & D are both price related, price seems very important, more than the content or the war itself.

Would you buy a hi-def format now if there were only one? Yes – 3, No - 12

This has been the problem with HDM from the day it was released 15 months ago. It is an upgrade to DVD. It is an evolutionary change from DVD. NOT revolutionary as DVD was over both VHS and LD.

You also have to own an HDTV. All other formats played fine on existing TV's - just buy a player. DVD was the best format hands down as far as PQ.

Now - lots of HD available and tons more coming in Sept. Yes HDM is better than HD CBL/SAT but how much better? Just a little . . . .until you put on Discovery HD Theater - then HDM doesn't look as good in comparison to HD. HD CAM will always look better than HDM movies as you compare them today.

Hot seller . . Up converting DVD players - cheaper than HDM and you can rent one of 80,000 movies . . . compared to less than 600 SID. They released over 700 DVD's from 1/1 to 6/30 this year already.

For those who don't own either HD DVD or Blu-ray, what is the biggest factor holding you back?

A) Price - 6
B) The Format War - 6
C) You are happy with DVD and think it's not worth it - 15
D) You aren't seeing the type of films you want available - 6
E) You think both formats are destined to fail - 4

Since A & D are both price related, price seems very important, more than the content or the war itself.



You mean A & C right? To me, A&C look price related while B, D, E are content related (if all content was available on both or neither, then it would be irrelevent). A meaning if it was cheap, those 6 people would have bought one or the other. C meaning if it was cheap, only apathy/inertia would hold them back from from the "worth it" factor shouldn't apply (at least to those who consider price the issue).


Would you buy a hi-def format now if there were only one? Yes – 3, No - 12

Hmm... so assuming there's not a lot of unique differentiation on the nays and the reasons for holding back, if price wasn't an issue, would the result have been 9 Yes, No 6? (+6 for Price, if not some some more from the "worth it" category assuming they're not just apathetic).

And if there was one format (or all content available on both), there would have been Yes 13, No 2? (+10 for No Format War and Both Not Destined to Fail.)


Interesting results though, thanks!

You mean A & C right? To me, A&C look price related while B, D, E are content related (if all content was available on both or neither, then it would be irrelevent).

Interesting results though, thanks!


Opps, yes your right.

Nah, just recommend a PS3.

Does any self respecting non gaming true HT enthusiast want the PS3 as their main HDM player?

At some point a lot of HD-DVD supporters here are going to have to be held accountable for just being plain wrong, and repeatedly wrong.This is the kind of statement that always annoys me. Why was I wrong to purchase two HD DVD players if my motivation for doing so was to be able to screen content that isn't available on BD. I wasn't anymore wrong than when I purchased a Panasonic BD player to screen content that wasn't available on HD DVD.

I wasn't in the mood to wait years to have "Bourne", "Seabiscuit", "Eagles in Melbourne", etc., etc. You folks can get pretty arrogant at times.

Hmm... so assuming there's not a lot of unique differentiation on the nays and the reasons for holding back, if price wasn't an issue, would the result have been 9 Yes, No 6? (+6 for Price, if not some some more from the "worth it" category assuming they're not just apathetic).

And if there was one format (or all content available on both), there would have been Yes 13, No 2? (+10 for No Format War and Both Not Destined to Fail.)


Interesting results though, thanks!

It wasn't like a poll here where you check a box, people voted on the questions they wanted too, some gave opinions. Apathy has been the major stance on the nays. They think they're being played essentially. There were a lot of "I'm sick of format hoping" in general comments.

I've always got a lot of "Oh here he comes with that HD stuff again" reactions in these non-tech movie forums.

Does any self respecting non gaming true HT enthusiast want the PS3 as their main HDM player?

I agree with yu. But the PS3 is a much better player than all of the other BD players out there. Why? Because it uses that IBM Cell processor. It will most likely be upgradeableable to Profile 1.1. None of the Samsungs including the new ones will be.

Don't care about the future - buy any player you want. If futureproof is important to you - PS3 is the answer.

And this comes from an HD DVD supporter.

You also have to own an HDTV. All other formats played fine on existing TV's - just buy a player.
This is wrong. You can use a Blu-ray Disc or HD DVD player with a regular SDTV, you just won't gain much from the upgrade. But if you have a decent audio setup, you could benefit from the lossless audio.

Do you know of any annoucement from Venturer about a change of plans? Because at the moment there is no reason to believe that Venturer cancelled the product, especially considering the fact that Amir itself confirmed that low cost chinese HD DVD players are coming later this year. And all the Fuh Yuan thing, if anything, confirmed at least that chinese manifacturers are on the move and searching buyers for the US market.

"Amir himself." That is a pretty strong statement of validation of a source.

He also said that Meridian is planning a high-end HD DVD player. I await its introduction with interest.

Wow, the HDTV software discussion might as well be a link to the blu-ray form. What is the point of this forum? Almost every thread is dogging HD-DVD. Sheeeeh! What a bunch of mindless fanboys. Maybe I need to start a thread and call it "All I am seeing is RED..."

I have faith that the HD-DVD group has a long term strategy, and misleading the public is not high on the agenda. They are focusing on getting the players out there and at cheap prices. Once they hit 1m units (and they will) I think we will see the general sentiment change quite a bit. People have said that the public is staying away from HD (in general) because of mass confusing. Do you think all the mis-information coming from Sony has anything to do with this?

If you look at the motivation for Sony to make such a big push in July, it seems they are not the clear victor they claim. It wouldn't be necessary to waste money on smear campaigns if they were truly in the clear. This holiday season will be very important. It can go either way (or continue as a stale mate). No one can say for certain what will happen in 6 months time.

Image this format war as automotive race. Do you use your nitro boost at the start of the race? Or is it smarter to save it for the end of the last lap? If you are honestly leaving your competition in the dust, is it even necessary to use nitro at all? I have a feeling that HD-DVD is just ducking for cover while BluRay wastes all their ammunition before the real battle has even started.

I agree with yu. But the PS3 is a much better player than all of the other BD players out there. Why? Because it uses that IBM Cell processor. It will most likely be upgradeableable to Profile 1.1. None of the Samsungs including the new ones will be.

Don't care about the future - buy any player you want. If futureproof is important to you - PS3 is the answer.

And this comes from an HD DVD supporter.

My point is why isn't this functionally and upgradeability availabe in a stand alone? I would never buy any BD player at this point in time that was handicapped by non upgradeability.

At some point a lot of HD-DVD supporters here are going to have to be held accountable for just being plain wrong, and repeatedly wrong. There is going to be a lot of crow served here at AVSforum.
Held accountable for what? Electronics are disposable unfortunately. I have bought into both formats and have and NEVER will have any regrets no matter what happens. Someday both of my players will die and will be tossed. Big deal, I'll look for a good buy and buy another (whether there is one or two formats at that time) Meanwhile, the time watching Batman Begins, King Kong, The Matrix Trillogy,Serenity, Seabiscuit and MANY others was MORE than worth the price. Your statement was very fanboyish and quite frankly ignorant.

Your statement was very fanboyish and quite frankly ignorant.

All Hallmarks of a Krinkle post. ;)

With each new HD member we should all be happy. The higher numbers mean more economies of scale and better prices for us all. I just bought The Contract for $12.99 at Fry's. That's cheaper than the DVD and it looks great (the movie is "ok")

I realize it's confusing to consumers but if this war persists then eventually Universal players may become rapidly affordable and hopefully very accessable.

Held accountable for what? Electronics are disposable unfortunately. I have bought into both formats and have and NEVER will have any regrets no matter what happens. Someday both of my players will die and will be tossed. Big deal, I'll look for a good buy and buy another (whether there is one or two formats at that time) Meanwhile, the time watching Batman Begins, King Kong, The Matrix Trillogy,Serenity, Seabiscuit and MANY others was MORE than worth the price. Your statement was very fanboyish and quite frankly ignorant.

For polluting this forum with the lie that HD-DVD would win and Blu-ray would die.

For encouraging fence sitters to buy a doomed format and waste their money.

For continuously insulting Blu-ray only members.

I joined this forum in November 2006, and from the very beginning said that Blu-ray would surge and win, and that HD-DVD would lose. (it was extremely unpopular to be Blu-ray only in 2006 on this forum).

For all the jibes and insults Blu-ray only members have had to endure.

It turns out that it is looking like I was right all along and they were wrong.

When I joined this forum I was pro-Bluray, but NOT anti-HDDVD. To be honest all the nasty HD-DUD supporters here really radicalized my viewpoints.

At this point I am enjoying seeing HDDVD fail.

It will be interesting to see if any HDDVD zealots have the courage to admit they were wrong about the war and apologize to those of us that have been on the right side.

My guess is most will just crawl back into the wordwook as HDDVD continues to fade.

For polluting this forum with the lie that HD-DVD would win and Blu-ray would die.

For encouraging fence sitters to buy a doomed format and waste their money.

For continuously insulting Blu-ray only members.

I joined this forum in November 2006, and from the very beginning said that Blu-ray would surge and win, and that HD-DVD would lose. (it was extremely unpopular to be Blu-ray only in 2006 on this forum).

For all the jibes and insults Blu-ray only members have had to endure.

It turns out that it is looking like I was right all along and they were wrong.

When I joined this forum I was pro-Bluray, but NOT anti-HDDVD. To be honest all the nasty HD-DUD supporters here really radicalized my viewpoints.

At this point I am enjoying seeing HDDVD fail.

It will be interesting to see if any HDDVD zealots have the courage to admit they were wrong about the war and apologize to those of us that have been on the right side.

My guess is most will just crawl back into the wordwook as HDDVD continues to fade.

So your going to heaven and we're going to hell? Chill out fanboy.

For polluting this forum with the lie that HD-DVD would win and Blu-ray would die.

For encouraging fence sitters to buy a doomed format and waste their money.

For continuously insulting Blu-ray only members.

I joined this forum in November 2006, and from the very beginning said that Blu-ray would surge and win, and that HD-DVD would lose. (it was extremely unpopular to be Blu-ray only in 2006 on this forum).

For all the jibes and insults Blu-ray only members have had to endure.

It turns out that it is looking like I was right all along and they were wrong.

When I joined this forum I was pro-Bluray, but NOT anti-HDDVD. To be honest all the nasty HD-DUD supporters here really radicalized my viewpoints.

At this point I am enjoying seeing HDDVD fail.

It will be interesting to see if any HDDVD zealots have the courage to admit they were wrong about the war and apologize to those of us that have been on the right side.

My guess is most will just crawl back into the wordwook as HDDVD continues to fade.


You need to get a life. You are becoming the bad apple, and please stop calling all owners of HD DVD players fanboys, it is getting old and tiresome. Just for your information, every HD DVD owner is not your enemy :confused:

So... eh... how many more months do we have to wait for a Chinese HD DVD player to come? ;)

If you look at the motivation for Sony to make such a big push in July, it seems they are not the clear victor they claim. It wouldn't be necessary to waste money on smear campaigns if they were truly in the clear. This holiday season will be very important. It can go either way (or continue as a stale mate). No one can say for certain what will happen in 6 months time.All very good points, which (amusingly) are all in favor of Sony's strategy. Their big push isn't in July, that's just when you read the reports. If you'd actually analyzed all the news, you would have seen that the actual activity starts in October and November, precisely timed to build momentum for the holiday season. It's perfect placing.
Image this format war as automotive race. Do you use your nitro boost at the start of the race? Or is it smarter to save it for the end of the last lap? If you are honestly leaving your competition in the dust, is it even necessary to use nitro at all?Another analogy that works better against your argument than for it. It was HD DVD that rushed out of the gate (too fast for Warner, even:D) and had people on here making all kinds of declarations of HD DVD superiority.
I have a feeling that HD-DVD is just ducking for cover while BluRay wastes all their ammunition before the real battle has even started.And the reason they're ducking for cover is because they're out of ammo. They have nothing to compare to Blu-ray's big releases, all of the small studios they promised would go HD DVD have gone Blu-ray, retailers and renters both corporate and independent are teaming up with the BDA, and their A/V and interactivity spec advantages are dwindling by the day.

This calling each other names and not being able to discuss anything without such is getting old.

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