Seriously, how is America going to let this fly????

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#BD.2B

BD+ is effectively a small virtual machine embedded in authorized players. It allows content providers to include executable programs on Blu-ray discs. Such programs can:[14]

* examine the host environment, to see if the player has been tampered with. Every licensed playback device manufacturer must provide the BD+ licensing authority with memory footprints that identify their devices.
* verify that the player's keys have not been changed.
* execute native code, possibly to patch an otherwise insecure system.
* transform the audio and video output. Parts of the content will not be viewable without letting the BD+-program unscramble it.

If a playback device manufacturer finds that its devices have been hacked, it can potentially release BD+-code that detects and circumvents the vulnerability. These programs can then be included in all new content releases.

The specifications of the BD+ virtual machine are only available to licensed device manufacturers.[14]

You need to be more specific - let what fly?

Also, where does the 'spy ware' come in to play?

Your post is confusing - please clarify your complaint.

What do you mean by "spyware"?

What do you mean by "spyware"?
Computer software installed surreptitiously on a personal computer to intercept or take partial control over the user's interaction with the computer, without the user's informed consent?

Not giving or taking any merit to the OP's assertion, just throwing out one of the common definitions pf spyware. There's a reasonable chance the average end-user won't be aware of what BD+ is/does/wants to do.

BD+ could very well be considered. It's job is to watch your actions and in necessary act on its own.

Seriously, how is America going to let this fly????

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#BD.2B


Have you ever used a computer? Every program on there can do the same thing. I'm sure a lot of the programs you have installed (including the OS) track what you do. Your car's computer tracks how you drive and maintenance performed. The Safeway, QFC, Albertson's, etc card tracks what groceries you buy. Tivo tracks what shows you watch to suggest similar ones. Amazon tracks your order history. Doctors track your health history. So what if you dvd player now tracks what movies you watch.

Everything you do is tracked. We are watching. We know what you are doing. We will get you.

muhh haha, muuhhh hahaha, MUUHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!

Title edited.

XBox 360 does some of that and then boots modded boxes off of Live. This is the world in which we live. Do not connect it to the web if you are worried.

What really kills me is that we are paying for players that schemes like this take control of and do not allow us to do whatever we want with our legally purchased equipment. If Sony wants to control what is done with Blu-Ray players, they should give them to us for free. Otherwise we should be able to do what we want with them and they should still work.

Title edited.
Thank you DrDon.

Thank you DrDon.Thanks, but it still isn't perfect. <G>

From what I understand BD+ opens up the doors to possible virus attacks. Not to mention spyware that could track your viewing habits, disable particular content (no porno for you!), brick your player if you mod it to be region free, even alter the OS with possible advertisements (imagine the LCD display reading "ch3ap v1agr4!!!1111!!"), or other such tom follery. Yes I know, very unlikely, and it will take 10 years to crack (lol), but entirely possible.

From what I understand BD+ opens up the doors to possible virus attacks. Not to mention spyware that could track your viewing habits, disable particular content (no porno for you!), brick your player if you mod it to be region free, even alter the OS with possible advertisements (imagine the LCD display reading "ch3ap v1agr4!!!1111!!"), or other such tom follery. Yes I know, very unlikely, and it will take 10 years to crack (lol), but entirely possible.

Some one will be around in a minute to tell you that what you buy isn't yours. Stay tuned.

What really kills me is that we are paying for players that schemes like this take control of and do not allow us to do whatever we want with our legally purchased equipment. If Sony wants to control what is done with Blu-Ray players, they should give them to us for free. Otherwise we should be able to do what we want with them and they should still work.


The rest of the world: Don't like it? Don't buy it.


The US: Don't like it? Bitch and moan about it.

The rest of the world: Don't like it? Don't buy it.


The US: Don't like it? Bitch and moan about it.

More like

The US: Don't like it? Get a lawyer.

The Texas Office of the Attorney General went after Sony over their CD rootkit.

http://www.oag.state.tx.us/oagnews/release.php?id=1370

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Sony_BMG_CD_copy_protection_scandal

What really kills me is that we are paying for players that schemes like this take control of and do not allow us to do whatever we want with our legally purchased equipment. If Sony wants to control what is done with Blu-Ray players, they should give them to us for free. Otherwise we should be able to do what we want with them and they should still work.

You are woefully misinformed, and clearly live in a world where you think that what you want is the way it should be for all.

The issue to consider here is the software. Never forget that all hardware made is designed to be a vehicle for the software, which is the profit center of the endeavor. Pirates will mod hardware and copy software such that the device operates outside of the intended specifications when designed and brought to market. Executable "putty programs" that serve solely to maintain that spec certainly aren't either illegal or immoral to produce.

Fact is, you would rather have these things happen than disabling of the machine, which BTW has not been ruled out.

EDIT: What you buy isn't yours when you use the device to enable illegal pirating of copyrighted software. You can also buy a car, but I suspect it may be taken from you if you used it to get away from the bank you robbed.

Some one will be around in a minute to tell you that what you buy isn't yours. Stay tuned.

Damn, you're good :)

Some one will be around in a minute to tell you that what you buy isn't yours. Stay tuned.

Actually, it's true. You ever really read a copyright notice?

Some one will be around in a minute to tell you that what you buy isn't yours. Stay tuned.

You are probably typing that message from a machine running Microsoft Windows. Did you happen to read the EULA?

NEWSFLASH: If you are running windows it "contains executable programs" that Microsoft can run without your knowledge. OMG THE SKY IS FALLING.

I guess I would be embarrarssed if they uploaded the fact I watched Norbit a second time tonight. But I would get over it.

'How YOU doin'!?

You are woefully misinformed, and clearly live in a world where you think that what you want is the way it should be for all.

The issue to consider here is the software. Never forget that all hardware made is designed to be a vehicle for the software, which is the profit center of the endeavor. Pirates will mod hardware and copy software such that the device operates outside of the intended specifications when designed and brought to market. Executable "putty programs" that serve solely to maintain that spec certainly aren't either illegal or immoral to produce.

Fact is, you would rather have these things happen than disabling of the machine, which BTW has not been ruled out.

EDIT: What you buy isn't yours when you use the device to enable illegal pirating of copyrighted software. You can also buy a car, but I suspect it may be taken from you if you used it to get away from the bank you robbed.

You sound like a studio now, everyone's a criminal. I am not talking about piracy, although modifications can certainly be used for that. What if someone comes out with a firmware that allows us to resume all discs, or decode DTS-MA before the manufacturer does. There is nothing illegal about that and it has nothing to do with pirating software. If I install such firmware and then my movies no longer play, then that is wrong. Using your car analogy, what if I wanted to install a new CD Player and after I did, my car no longer started. I think someone might be a little upset about that.

If the studios and CE manufacturers spend half as much time coming up with ways to lower prices and raise quality as the did throwing money at new protection methods, piracy would not be anywhere near the big deal it is today.

More like

The US: Don't like it? Get a lawyer.

The Texas Office of the Attorney General went after Sony over their CD rootkit.

http://www.oag.state.tx.us/oagnews/release.php?id=1370

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Sony_BMG_CD_copy_protection_scandal

You mean... they went after SonyBMG, a completely separate corporate entity with its own independent executive structure in which Sony owns a 50% stake (as does BMG).

Of course, "Sony" provided for easier headlines... I would love to witness the utter non-attention the story would have received if it had been default portrayed as "BMG" installing rootkits instead.

Why would you edit my title of the thread? It's still frigging spy ware. Just like sony's root kit was.

You sound like a studio now, everyone's a criminal. I am not talking about piracy, although modifications can certainly be used for that. What if someone comes out with a firmware that allows us to resume all discs, or decode DTS-MA before the manufacturer does. There is nothing illegal about that and it has nothing to do with pirating software. If I install such firmware and then my movies no longer play, then that is wrong. Using your car analogy, what if I wanted to install a new CD Player and after I did, my car no longer started. I think someone might be a little upset about that.


Or more likely when PC BluRay burners become more mainstream, you could install a totally random program that the BDA doesn't like.

Why would you edit my title of the thread?

Because it was deliberately trying to mislead people? Who knows.

If you tried to claim BD+ was spyware, then you have no idea what BD+ is nor do you know what spyware is. It's probably a good idea not to post such things until you find out.

From what I understand BD+ opens up the doors to possible virus attacks

It sounds like you haven't understood anything. All those things you mention would most likely require someone to insert the code on a pre-recorded disc. Not something your average virus writer is going to do. Given that the code is flushed from memory when the disc is ejected it seems unlikely that any virus writer would bother. At best you'd get some kind of reaction from a single disc so it's hardly going to make your copy of Grease stop working

As far as BD+ isn't cracked, I'll like that when I buy a movie, I know that piraters don't get the same thing for free. DRM doesn't bug me.

Everything you do is tracked. We are watching. We know what you are doing. We will get you.

muhh haha, muuhhh hahaha, MUUHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!

:D

Until the above actually happens, then this thread is a classic case of Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. I also suspect the the HD DVD equivalent can do the same things.

It sounds like you haven't understood anything. All those things you mention would most likely require someone to insert the code on a pre-recorded disc. Not something your average virus writer is going to do.Thats not too hard. Just release a bogus BR-iso on the internet masked as a popular movie. Assuming BR-burners are cheaper in the future by the time BD+ and Profile 2.0 are the norm, it isn't hard to believe this could happen. The trojen could be listed as a rip of Resident Evil: Extininction for example. A bunch of people download it and try it on their BR player and BAM! Your unit is bricked. Or maybe it installs a dormant virus that could be accessed using the internet features on a particular disc and infect others on your friends list. I admit, it wouldn't be a simple task, but it is within the realm of possibility. Java is primarily a secure platform, but with the buggy mess of interactive features (or lack there-of) on current BR movies, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some serious security holes.

Thats not too hard. Just release a bogus BR-iso on the internet masked as a popular movie. Assuming BR-burners are cheaper in the future by the time BD+ and Profile 2.0 are the norm, it isn't hard to believe this could happen. The trojen could be listed as a rip of Resident Evil: Extininction for example. A bunch of people download it and try it on their BR player and BAM! Your unit is bricked.

You shouldn't be illegally downloading movies in the first place. Honestly...

I hope what you brought up really happens, maybe it will help out the movie industry. Scare people away from home pirating. The more people that buy movies, the better for the studios and the consumer.

You shouldn't be illegally downloading movies in the first place. Honestly...

I hope what you brought up really happens, maybe it will help out the movie industry. Scare people away from home pirating. The more people that buy movies, the better for the studios and the consumer.

Or even cooler is someone write a virus that infects your PC with a BD drive in it. Instead of hacking anything all it does is modify some files that BD+ is looking at to determine is hack xyz has taken place. Now take that code and put it in a worm and let it infect say 30-50 million users. Unknown to them Spiderman 4 has an active countermeasure looking for hack xyz. ResOGlas computer has been modified (along with 30+ millions of other users) to look like he hacked his BD drive.

BAM. Active countermeasure. Bricks your BD software player and/or drive. Pretty cool stuff huh? Guns don't only kill bad people, occsionally fires burn stuff that was not intended to burn down, and poisons generally hurt whoever injests them.

The point is that likely the studios will think they know what is going on but as the rootkit scenario shows they likely have no clue what they are doing. To generate some public outcry against BD+ I have no doubt hackers will exploit the detection routines in BD+ to generate false positives. If you computer gets hit iin the crossfire I am sure you won't mind though. Studios have an absolute right to do anything to protect their product.

You shouldn't be illegally downloading movies in the first place. Honestly...I don't bootleg. The scenario I proposed was hypothetical.

Thats not too hard. Just release a bogus BR-iso on the internet masked as a popular movie. Assuming BR-burners are cheaper in the future by the time BD+ and Profile 2.0 are the norm, it isn't hard to believe this could happen. The trojen could be listed as a rip of Resident Evil: Extininction for example. A bunch of people download it and try it on their BR player and BAM! Your unit is bricked. Or maybe it installs a dormant virus that could be accessed using the internet features on a particular disc and infect others on your friends list. I admit, it wouldn't be a simple task, but it is within the realm of possibility. Java is primarily a secure platform, but with the buggy mess of interactive features (or lack there-of) on current BR movies, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some serious security holes.

This can be done now. Pretty much all players whose firmware can be upgraded via a disc is vulnerable to this trick. BD+ isn't needed.

You shouldn't be illegally downloading movies in the first place. Honestly...

I hope what you brought up really happens, maybe it will help out the movie industry. Scare people away from home pirating. The more people that buy movies, the better for the studios and the consumer.

I don't advocate piracy, but I should be able to download whatever I want. We have laws that have consequences if broken and you are caught. It is not up to the studios, etc.. to enact their own punishments by bricking hardware.

This brings back the whole root kit fiasco all over again and guess who was behind that one too?
(ha, when I wrote that I didn't even see the post above)

BD+ is one of the many reasons I will never own a blu-ray disc in my life. If I have to go back to downloading torrents again I will. I won't feel bad for "cheating" these corporations. BD+ will be broken, and it will leave regular consumers who purchase the discs a half assed version that is gone forever if the disc ever gets scratched or damaged.

From what I understand BD+ opens up the doors to possible virus attacks. Not to mention spyware that could track your viewing habits, disable particular content (no porno for you!), brick your player if you mod it to be region free, even alter the OS with possible advertisements (imagine the LCD display reading "ch3ap v1agr4!!!1111!!"), or other such tom follery. Yes I know, very unlikely, and it will take 10 years to crack (lol), but entirely possible.

And yet many people load discs with executables every day and has been doing so for years: games on their now HD-DVD or Blu-ray capable game consoles.

You mean... they went after SonyBMG, a completely separate corporate entity with its own independent executive structure in which Sony owns a 50% stake (as does BMG).

Of course, "Sony" provided for easier headlines... I would love to witness the utter non-attention the story would have received if it had been default portrayed as "BMG" installing rootkits instead.

This is a good point - you always hear about "Sony's" rootkit fiasco, but that's like blaming Microsoft for something you saw on MSNBC.

What if someone comes out with a firmware that allows us to resume all discs, or decode DTS-MA before the manufacturer does. There is nothing illegal about that and it has nothing to do with pirating software.

You might be correct in that it isn't illegal per se, but again--it falls outside of the operating spec of the machine at that point. The .exe would then kick in to correct this issue.

If I install such firmware and then my movies no longer play, then that is wrong.

No, it isn't. In fact, it may even void your warranty and cause other issues. Countless PCs have been fustigated by people thinking they knew what time it was with a "great new program" torrented into their PCs. Third-party apps do not have to be supported whatsoever.

If the studios and CE manufacturers spend half as much time coming up with ways to lower prices and raise quality as the did throwing money at new protection methods, piracy would not be anywhere near the big deal it is today.

Lower prices or we'll steal your stuff. That chant has been going on since dust was a new concept. It doesn't surprise me that we're talking about it today.

The HD DVD fanbase is DRM fear mongering. DRM is used on many digital devices today. Fact is if you use a product as it was intended the end consumer is not aware of the DRM going on in the background.

Yes DRM is going to be an issue if you want to hack your players to try to make unauthorized copies or other non legal uses.

Again DRM is not just an issue for BD, it is an industry wide issue. If it was not for the extra security studios like Fox and Disney might not be on board.

Again FUD being spread here. HD DVD players all have ethernet jacks on them also so don't be fooled into thinking that HD DVD won't ever do things that BD+ could also do.

HD DVD and BD have both already had titles that would not play without FW upgrades. What's to stop either one from slipping more DRM measures into the FW.

The HD DVD fanbase is DRM fear mongering. DRM is used on many digital devices today. Yes DRM is going to be an issue if you want to hack your players to try to make unauthorized copies or other non legal uses.Yeah DRM is used on many devices and everyone hates it. I'm not even talking about illegal copies. Right now I am listening to music on iTunes. I would much rather use WinAmp (because the AQ is better, the visualizations and custom skins I have), but Apple won't let me. They also won't let me watch the shows I downloaded on my Xbox360. I don't like it at all. I don't like DRM. A lot of other people feel the same way. Its not just hackers and thieves.

BD would get less flak on BD+ if the industry came clean on Managed Copy. My suspicion is there will be no MC on BD thanks to no internet connection, and BD+ will lock that (no MC)down. That may even be a reason internet connection is optional on BD. Could be BDA is blocking MC on AACS for HD-DVD too? But I'm no expert in this stuff, just reading Wiki.

The potential of having a player bricked by a trojan horse masquerading as a firmware upgrade disc is not the same as having a virtual firmware upgrade disk on EVERY title you place in the drawer.

Yeah DRM is used on many devices and everyone hates it. I'm not even talking about illegal copies. Right now I am listening to music on iTunes. I would much rather use WinAmp (because the AQ is better, the visualizations and custom skins I have), but Apple won't let me. They also won't let me watch the shows I downloaded on my Xbox360. I don't like it at all. I don't like DRM. A lot of other people feel the same way. Its not just hackers and thieves.

Agreed. I am not a fan of DRM if it takes away legal uses. But in the case above I think it is already a known issue if you use iTunes you are tied to iTunes and the iPod. I think DRM in this form has its days numbered.

WRT BD, as long as a player and the disc have a BD logo, this should not be much of an issue.

Everyone here is acting like HD DVD is an angel. Universal already stopped production once. DRM will be an issue with both platforms. It is also easier to do with HD DVD since every player has a ethernet connection.

Again fear mongering about bricking players. Screwing up any FW upgrade procedure can brick a player. BD+ is not unique in that regard.

Again the HD DVD fanboys see the writing on the wall and they are resorting to fear mongering.

BD+ is not unique in that regard.

Again the HD DVD fanboys see the writing on the wall and they are resorting to fear mongering.

Craig, you're not getting it. BD+ is uniquely unique in that regard. There is a big difference between a firmware upgrade disk, and having executable code arriving on every disk.

Again the HD DVD fanboys see the writing on the wall and they are resorting to fear mongering.
And the BD fanboys are eating what they're fed. See, I can argue on that level too.

Less DRM is better - one of the reasons I chose HD-DVD, I don't like BD+ - but this seems a bit paranoid.

Craig, you're not getting it. BD+ is uniquely unique in that regard. There is a big difference between a firmware upgrade disk, and having executable code arriving on every disk.


Until someone shows me a player being bricked or BD+ interferring with the end user I am not to concerned.

The consumer expects this to operate like a DVD player. The studios are going to have a PR nightmare if they try to lock out people who use their players legally.

DRM is not a format issue.

Just because HD DVD does not have a HD DVD+ layer of protection does not mean that Toshiba can't do something questionable.

If BD+ is used to more easily track those who are distributing illegal copies, more power to them. I pay for legal copies.

And the BD fanboys are eating what they're fed. See, I can argue on that level too.

BD+ is a small price to pay for having some studios on board. Again I am not a fan of DRM if it impacts legal uses. If it is transparent to me I really don't care.

BD+ could very well be considered. It's job is to watch your actions and in necessary act on its own.



soon bd players will take over the world like in terminator, or the trapper keeper from south park. then humanity is doomed!!

And the BD fanboys are eating what they're fed. See, I can argue on that level too.Not if you want to keep posting here, you can't. :D So, let's ALL stop the name calling, PLEASE.

Doc

BD+ is a small price to pay for having some studios on board. Again I am not a fan of DRM if it impacts legal uses. If it is transparent to me I really don't care.

Right now AACS is basically cracked. That means you can use your fair use to rip video and move it around or host on a HTPC or whatever if you would like.

Is that legal? These days nothing is legal that the DRM doesn't allow, as circumventing copy protection is always illegal thanks to the DMCA - and that includes all sorts of valid, morally OK things including Fair Use type stuff.

*** POST DELETED ***

I don't like it at all.
But you keep buying it right? As long as you keep buying it they don't care if you don't like it.

As for BD+ it is absolutely spyware. I think anyone that thinks otherwise is suffering from the boiling-frog syndrome in a bad way.I do think otherwise, but then I know the details of BD+. And how can it be spyware when an internet connection is optional?

BD+ will be able to remove any language it finds offensive, or any deriding comments about Sony or Universal or ???? from the content in real-time.Where did that wild rumor start? How would they do that? Do they know our proprietary DSP instruction set? I doubt it...

The studios cannot do anything they wish using BD+, as a many people from many companies have to approve it before it's put on a disc. And our chip will not execute anything that we haven't approved ahead of time.

The HD DVD fanbase is DRM fear mongering. DRM is used on many digital devices today. Fact is if you use a product as it was intended the end consumer is not aware of the DRM going on in the background.

Yes DRM is going to be an issue if you want to hack your players to try to make unauthorized copies or other non legal uses.

Again DRM is not just an issue for BD, it is an industry wide issue. If it was not for the extra security studios like Fox and Disney might not be on board.

Again FUD being spread here. HD DVD players all have ethernet jacks on them also so don't be fooled into thinking that HD DVD won't ever do things that BD+ could also do.

HD DVD and BD have both already had titles that would not play without FW upgrades. What's to stop either one from slipping more DRM measures into the FW.

Sorry to inform you of this but DRM sucks. Say what you want, but you will not convince the vast majority of people other wise.

Repeat after me . . . movies are not software. DVD, HD DVD, and BR players are not computers. Sony, Toshiba, et al may WANT them to be, as that affords them certain comparisons and business model choices that would otherwise look ludicrous, but they're not. Still think they are? Ok, your new Sony A/V Receiver just detected that one of the MP3s you streamed to it was not legally obtained, so the receiver just 'bricked' itself. Sound fair to you? Yeah, sure it does.

Just because new C/E equipment has "guts" that are very PC-esque doesn't mean we ought to start thinking of them in the same fashion as PCs. C/E manufacturers are going down this path for a reason . . . and here's a hint: that reason doesn't have anything to do with anything that benefits you, the consumer.

Well the entire discussion is pretty much hypothetical, but this is AVS so I think that working through possibilities and the potential pitfalls falls right in line with what we are here for.

Its either that to kill the thread as there is no proof of anything. Perhaps an in the know BR rep can shed some light, but short of that we here can do nothing else but to speculate and try to figure out what is and what is not possible.

For example, I understand that the code that runs on a disk is not supposed to be persistent or any of the changes it makes allowed to be persistent once that disk is removed. Can someone confirm that? Beyond "that is what I here".

So I will take the above at face value for now. Can someone show that it is not only "not supposed to", but is impossible? There is a big difference there.

The reason why I state this is that over time as there are more and more machines out there and more and more disk I think there is the risk of what happened recently with Sony and AACS with some titles like CR etc. Except there is the potential that instead of the disk simple not working the code scrambles the players code/firmware or whatever. The idea being that this was not intended to happen, was not supposed to happen, but I would be a lot more comfortable if someone could put it writing why it CANNOT happen.

Personally I am not all that keen on any kind of DRM or BD+ big brother type stuff. If I bought it I feel that I own it and I should be able to do what I want with it other than copy/sell it to others which directly takes money from the original rights owner.

That and while I am an early adopter (and maybe partially because I am and I am used to the growing pains) I am simply not comfortable with the possibility that my machine could be compromised by some boutique distributor who somehow just doesn't get the code right and it freaks when it doesn't recognize little Jenny's soccer game that was played previously or something.

This goes for HD-DVD as well although I get the impression that this isn't as likely given the differences (I hear) regarding BD+ and the HD-DVD. I welcome some one who KNOWS to post links or part of the spec or something that proves otherwise.

Cheers,

Richard

Repeat after me . . . movies are not software. DVD, HD DVD, and BR players are not computers. Sony, Toshiba, et al may WANT them to be, as that affords them certain comparisons and business model choices that would otherwise look ludicrous, but they're not. Still think they are? Ok, your new Sony A/V Receiver just detected that one of the MP3s you streamed to it was not legally obtained, so the receiver just 'bricked' itself. Sound fair to you? Yeah, sure it does.

Just because new C/E equipment has "guts" that are very PC-esque doesn't mean we ought to start thinking of them in the same fashion as PCs. C/E manufacturers are going down this path for a reason . . . and here's a hint: that reason doesn't have anything to do with anything that benefits you, the consumer.

Again when I see this happen then I will be concerned.

Sure your receiver is going to shutdown over an illegally downloaded song. Riiiight!

If the industry is stupid enough to pull these stunts they will have a PR nightmare on their hands and people will find other outlets for their entertainment dollars.

Repeat after me . . . movies are not software. DVD, HD DVD, and BR players are not computers. Sony, Toshiba, et al may WANT them to be, as that affords them certain comparisons and business model choices that would otherwise look ludicrous, but they're not. Still think they are? Ok, your new Sony A/V Receiver just detected that one of the MP3s you streamed to it was not legally obtained, so the receiver just 'bricked' itself. Sound fair to you? Yeah, sure it does.

How is this any different from MS detecting a modded xbox and banning it from Live?

I know the details of BD+. And how can it be spyware when an internet connection is optional?
Lame argument. Think about it.
Dream all you want. I know the details of BD+ also.

The HD DVD fanbase is DRM fear mongering.
Huh?
http://craphound.com/msftdrm.txt

DrDon you must be a huge weasel. You delete posts? You alter posts? You're un-american.I'd love to explain all to you, but you don't have PM enabled. There are rules on this forum, ruled you clicked "I agree" on when you signed up. My job is to enforce those rules which, among other things, prohibit open discussion of moderator action. We're happy to discuss things and explain things in private messages. I tried to tell you that in the edit of your previous post, but you didn't seem to get it, so I'm telling you again.

Huh?
http://craphound.com/msftdrm.txtGreat article. Very interesting read.

To all these pro-DRM "what are you afraid of..." people, I have but one question:

Explain to me just *one* benefit DRM provides for the consumer. Just one.

Great article. Very interesting read.

To all these pro-DRM "what are you afraid of..." people, I have but one question:

Explain to me just *one* benefit DRM provides for the consumer. Just one.DRM isn't for the consumer, it's for those who own the rights, so why would there be any benefit?

Lame argument. Think about it.
Dream all you want. I know the details of BD+ also.Do you work for one of these companies?

http://www.bdplusllc.com/home/list_of_adopters_content_participants_and_eligible_code_deve lopers

If not, I'd be *very* interested in how you know the details of BD+ on par with Keith, whose company *is* on that list (Sigma Designs).

I have the licenses (all 3) for BD+, so I know a bit more than most here, but even I don't know the *exact* capabilities of BD+, as I don't have access to the spec itself to see the key interaction and language syntax.

I'll be the first to say that the BDA hasn't been very truthful about what BD+ is capable of (hello, Andy Parsons, I'm looking at you), but now knowing the restrictions and processes surrounding those capabilities, much of this is a tempest in teapot...there are sufficient procedural safeguards in place to remove most any objection to BD+ in the wild (i.e., it takes a lot of effort to get to the native code deployment step). At an academic level, there are things to "worry" about, but at a practical level, not so much.

I'd argue that given the apparent effort needed to end run around all the red tape set in place by the BDA to get to the "dangerous" stuff in BD+ (e.g., native code execution with the proper signed key), for would-be pranksters, it would be easier to go to someone's house and smash their Blu-ray player with a brick than to brick their player with code.

Do you work for one of these companies?

http://www.bdplusllc.com/home/list_of_adopters_content_participants_and_eligible_code_deve lopers

If not, I'd be *very* interested in how you know the details of BD+ on par with Keith, whose company *is* on that list (Sigma Designs).

I have the licenses (all 3) for BD+, so I know a bit more than most here, but even I don't know the *exact* capabilities of BD+, as I don't have access to the spec itself to see the key interaction and language syntax.

I'll be the first to say that the BDA hasn't been very truthful about what BD+ is capable of (hello, Andy Parsons, I'm looking at you), but now knowing the restrictions and processes surrounding those capabilities, much of this is a tempest in teapot...there are sufficient procedural safeguards in place to remove most any objection to BD+ in the wild (i.e., it takes a lot of effort to get to the native code deployment step). At an academic level, there are things to "worry" about, but at a practical level, not so much.

I'd argue that given the apparent effort needed to end run around all the red tape set in place by the BDA to get to the "dangerous" stuff in BD+ (e.g., native code execution with the proper signed key), for would-be pranksters, it would be easier to go to someone's house and smash their Blu-ray player with a brick than to brick their player with code.


"...native code execution with the proper signed key..."

I suspected that there would be some provision such as this to avoid "impostor" BD Discs (aka the .torrent download scenario above) from simply running a malicious BD+ program containing native code that does something evil.

It will be interesting to see how much effort is undertaken my the 4@x0r community to attempt to obtain that key, however...

Huh?
http://craphound.com/msftdrm.txt

Makes some great points. To battle logic like this people like CraigW will call you a fear mongerer, and offer ZERO facts and Zero logic. They think name calling proves a pont.

DRM isn't for the consumer, it's for those who own the rights, so why would there be any benefit?

So you believe that the consumer has ZERO rights?
And why should consumers be forced to pay for something that offer no benefit to them? And please "don't buy it" is just dodging the question.

Again DRM is not just an issue for BD, it is an industry wide issue. If it was not for the extra security studios like Fox and Disney might not be on board.




So Fox and Disney stopped making millions of dollars on SD-DVD's when CSS was cracked?

They should keep all of their intellectual property in an argon filled vault under a mountain of granite to keep it safe and only allow it to be viewed cash upfront supervised by large men with pistols.

Raise your hand if you want a whole house HD media system with all premium sattelite channels with full DVR functionality and full functionality with HD/Blu/SD-DVD/CD. With all content able to be burned, converted, transfered to ipod/phone/PSP, watched on any TV in the house whenever an unlimited amout of times. You know the dream digital media solution. All the techonology exists RIGHT NOW for such a dream system. You just have to be willing to break the law.

I bet there is a long line of people with a big stack of money waiting to buy such a system if it were legit. Dish network will not allow you to pay for their CAM system to work on a PCI card for PC. Get a skywalker-1 or a DVB-S PCI card and some 'special' software and record to yor hearts content, even sports and PPV. AnyDVD can free SD-DVDs, HD-DVD, Blu-rays to be played from hard drive over network.

You CAN'T pay(legally sub or fair use the discs) for a system like this.


Instead, you want to see Spiderman in 1080p $30, SD-DVD of Spidey for the kids room or in the minivan $20 kids use as frisbee $20 more, Wifey want to watch it on her ipod on the train...$10 download. Son wants to see it on his PSP...UMD ain't free. Maybe they are overvaluing their property just a tad when they make 5000% of what it cost to make in the first week. I'm sure I would get a bill if they could prove that I was recapping the story in my minds eye.


Make content easy to (fair)use, make it easy to aquire, make it affordable and the average user has no need to emulate conditional access systems or bypass encryption protocols and sony does not have to put millions into a virtual machine to babysit it's content.


So far I've decided to opt out of both piracy and legitimatly consuming crippled media. I've got the money, I love the sweet gear and reference quality picture and sound. I just can't be trusted with the content.

I don't know what my point was.

How is this any different from MS detecting a modded xbox and banning it from Live?

It's probably not too much different, but that is what is worrisome. This is M/S we're talking about, bluring the line in the PC arena, and now Sony and M/S are blurring the line in the C/E arena . . .

Again, none of the reasons that these C/E implementations are begining to look like PCs and software benefit the consumer . . . they're all slanted at the PC/software model which gives the OEM a greater degree of control and legal rights around licensing and use.

So you believe that the consumer has ZERO rights?
And why should consumers be forced to pay for something that offer no benefit to them? And please "don't buy it" is just dodging the question.


The consumer does have zero rights as it pertains to what he does with the license he is purchasing to use software...and our congress has made sure you don't.

Don't buy is is not dodging the question...that is your course of action if you don't like the product companies are trying to sell to you.

Don't buy is is not dodging the question...that is your course of action if you don't like the product companies are trying to sell to you.Thankfully, that is the course of action many of us HD-DVD supporters have already taken.

How is this any different from MS detecting a modded xbox and banning it from Live?

Microsoft doesn't brick your xbox. You can still play locally with whatever games you have, you just can't connect to their servers (which they own and hence have the right to decide who can and cannot connect to).

Lame argument. Think about it.
Dream all you want. I know the details of BD+ also.


kjack has a lot of credibility around here.

You don't.

Huh?
http://craphound.com/msftdrm.txt
Wow. Sony has a negative learning curve. Used to be one of the "good guys".

So does BD Digital "Rights" Management simply mean you have "no rights"?

Until the above actually happens, then this thread is a classic case of Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. I also suspect the the HD DVD equivalent can do the same things.

There is no HD DVD equivalent, BD+ is unique to BD.

The HD DVD fanbase is DRM fear mongering.

While mongering isn't what I'd call it. More skepticism, awareness, and especailly resistance to DRM by the public can only be a good thing.

DRM is used on many digital devices today. Fact is if you use a product as it was intended the end consumer is not aware of the DRM going on in the background.

OK, consider this possibility:

You buy a new Dell PC, complete with BD player and software. You enjoy watching numerous BD movies. After several months, a updated driver is released by Dell for your graphics card that reportedly significantly improves video performance. So being the a/v enthusiast you are, you promptly download it and update your drivers.

Next day you insert a "older" BD movie featuring BD+. BD+ does not recognize your video driver. Since BD+ is unaware of your video driver, it kicks into "Advanced Countermeasure" mode, assuming your "player" (PC) is hacked. What do "Advanced Countermeasures" consitute? Does it simply disable playback, does it "brick" your PC?

All we know is that it's capable of either. We also know that it (should) be able to do the former without needing to run native code.

Yes DRM is going to be an issue if you want to hack your players to try to make unauthorized copies or other non legal uses.

What if your player manufacturer releases a firmware update (legitimate) that the author of your BD+ code didn't account for?

Again DRM is not just an issue for BD, it is an industry wide issue.

It is, and consumer awareness is sadly lacking, and IMO appathy among knowledgable consumers is uncomfortably high.

If it was not for the extra security studios like Fox and Disney might not be on board.

No, they'd most likely be releasing on both formats because they'll release wherever they can make money. They're currently holding out based on the promise that BD+ is "unsinkable".

Again FUD being spread here.

It is FUD. There is far to much Uncertainty regarding BD+'s capabilities and limitations that for many of us, it can't help but creating Fear, given the past history of the content industry (as a whole) regarding content protection, we have significant Doubt about the benevolence of any DRM scheme.

HD DVD players all have ethernet jacks on them also so don't be fooled into thinking that HD DVD won't ever do things that BD+ could also do.

It can't. AACS simply cannot do things BD+ can do. There is nothing on HD DVD that can do what BD+ can do, there is nothing on any medium whatsoever that can.

HD DVD and BD have both already had titles that would not play without FW upgrades. What's to stop either one from slipping more DRM measures into the FW.

How can you? You can't change the "DRM" on HD DVD without breaking the spec.

WRT BD, as long as a player and the disc have a BD logo, this should not be much of an issue.

SHOULD, being the operative word. Thing is, BD+ can (unless somebody with internal knowledge can refute) brick your player. And it could conceivably do that if a legitimate firmware update is released down the road that the BD+ code doesn't account for.

Everyone here is acting like HD DVD is an angel.

It may seem that way, but it's not. It's a lesser of two evils thing. Both are bad, but HD DVD's protection mechanisms (AACS) are quantified and their capabilities and limitations known.

The same is not true of BD+

Universal already stopped production once. DRM will be an issue with both platforms.

Yes it will be.

It is also easier to do with HD DVD since every player has a ethernet connection.

No it won't. "New DRM" can't be added to either HD DVD or BD. AACS is static, and cannot be changed (beyond updates that are in the spec). BD+ is different in that it can evolve, and the bigger issue is that it can take active measures against players based on unknown and undefined criteria

Again fear mongering about bricking players. Screwing up any FW upgrade procedure can brick a player. BD+ is not unique in that regard.

But BD+ is unique in the possibility that it could brick your player if you install an legitimate update that changes something an older version of BD+ didn't know was OK.

Again the HD DVD fanboys see the writing on the wall and they are resorting to fear mongering.

I don't like DRM in principal, but DRM capable of active countermeasures is just scary. I personally don't like either format based on the CP on them. I've limited myself to one weak moment so far (Matrix Trilogy). I'm far from a "fanboy".

Until someone shows me a player being bricked or BD+ interferring with the end user I am not to concerned.

We need to raise these questions, and have them addressed now, before players start being bricked. Nothing would be worse than to get beyond the point of no return and then have players start getting bricked.

The consumer expects this to operate like a DVD player. The studios are going to have a PR nightmare if they try to lock out people who use their players legally.

But the content industry has a history of not understanding, or not caring about that:
http://slashdot.org/articles/07/04/15/1914248.shtml

Sony Pictures is the company that has released DVDs that won't play on some of their own DVD players.

DRM is not a format issue.

When DRM differs between formats, it absolutely is.

Just because HD DVD does not have a HD DVD+ layer of protection does not mean that Toshiba can't do something questionable.

No, but it does mean that, three years down the road, you don't have to worry about sticking an HD DVD in your player and having your player become non-functional.

If BD+ is used to more easily track those who are distributing illegal copies, more power to them. I pay for legal copies.

If that was all it did, I would have no problem with it. I have no problem with using technology to prevent illegal distribution of copyrighted content. What I have a problem with is using carpet bombing when a tactical strike is necessary. DRM today is incapable of the kind of strategic accuracy needed to restrict illicit use without restricting legitimate use. DRM has far too much collateral damage today to be acceptable.

BD+ is a small price to pay for having some studios on board. Again I am not a fan of DRM if it impacts legal uses. If it is transparent to me I really don't care.

Again, if BD+ were not there, if both formats were equal with respect to content protection, do you really think as many studios would be ignoring 40% of the market?

Again when I see this happen then I will be concerned.

And again, if we wait until something bad happens DRM wise, it's too late.

If the industry is stupid enough to pull these stunts they will have a PR nightmare on their hands and people will find other outlets for their entertainment dollars.

Just look at XCP, the industry (yes, I know, SonyBMG != SPE) was dumb enough to infect untold computers around the world with a RootKit that opened up a huge security hole. They were forced to replace countless discs, and opened themselves up to legal action for their trouble.

SPE was dumb enough to release several blockbuster motion pictures that were unplayable on several set top DVD players (including Sony models), again having to replace untold discs.

And those were both with systems not included in the spec. What can they do if the spec includes provisions to run native code?

There are really two possibles here:
The "fear mongers" are right, in which case it's in the best interest of BD supporters especially to raise a fuss, to make clear that BD+ type protection is unacceptable and potentially save the studios from something like XCP or Casino Royale ARCCOS happening.
The "fear mongers" are wrong, in which case it's in BDA's best interest to get that information out to the public, and put to rest all the uncertainty about BD+ once and for all.

Either way, the uncertainty about BD+ is nothing but bad for BD.

I do think otherwise, but then I know the details of BD+.

Keith, I know you can't, but I'll ask anyway. Can you shed some light on BD+'s capabilities, and even more importantly, what sort of actions will and won't be allowed?

All we have regarding BD+ is the FUD that's based on the few scary facts we know (eg ability to run native code)

Yeah DRM is used on many devices and everyone hates it. I'm not even talking about illegal copies. Right now I am listening to music on iTunes. I would much rather use WinAmp (because the AQ is better, the visualizations and custom skins I have), but Apple won't let me. They also won't let me watch the shows I downloaded on my Xbox360. I don't like it at all. I don't like DRM. A lot of other people feel the same way. Its not just hackers and thieves.

Then do everyone a favor and stop supporting content with DRM.

DRM isn't for the consumer, it's for those who own the rights, so why would there be any benefit?

Here's something no "pro-DRM" person has ever even attempted to answer. If DRM does me, the consumer no good, and in addition to that, makes the product less functional, less portable, less compatible. Why should I, the consumer, happily accept it? Why is it "wrong" for me to raise my voice that I want more functionality, compatibility, freedom from the product they want to sell to me.

I'll be the first to say that the BDA hasn't been very truthful about what BD+ is capable of (hello, Andy Parsons, I'm looking at you), but now knowing the restrictions and processes surrounding those capabilities, much of this is a tempest in teapot...there are sufficient procedural safeguards in place to remove most any objection to BD+ in the wild (i.e., it takes a lot of effort to get to the native code deployment step). At an academic level, there are things to "worry" about, but at a practical level, not so much.

Can you go into these "procedural safeguards"?

I'd argue that given the apparent effort needed to end run around all the red tape set in place by the BDA to get to the "dangerous" stuff in BD+ (e.g., native code execution with the proper signed key), for would-be pranksters, it would be easier to go to someone's house and smash their Blu-ray player with a brick than to brick their player with code.

OK, what about the possibility of BD+ failing to account for future legitimate firmware updates?

FWIW, I'm not concerned about "rogue" BD+ code from malicious sources destroying a BD player. My worry is based on the sloppy, negligent implementations of things like ARCCOS and XCP, that BD+ will be slopilly implemented, signed, and mess with players for no reason. It's one thing for a bug in a player to prevent it from playing a disc until a FW update is released, it's entirely different for a bug in a disc to disable a player.

I mean we're talking highly complex systems here, and these things definitely don't go through the type of verification and certification stuff in the aerospace industry does.

Here's something no "pro-DRM" person has ever even attempted to answer. If DRM does me, the consumer no good, and in addition to that, makes the product less functional, less portable, less compatible. Why should I, the consumer, happily accept it? Why is it "wrong" for me to raise my voice that I want more functionality, compatibility, freedom from the product they want to sell to me.It's not wrong to voice your opinion, however you appear to be operating under a misunderstanding of the product you're purchasing.

What you're buying is the ability to watch a movie owned by someone else under whatever controls they feel fit to place around it. It's like a ticket to the cinema, only you can use it whenever you want, wherever you want, and as many times as you want, provided you abide by the rules. You don't take an HD camera to the movies, set it up in the aisle, and record the entire film just because you bought a ticket and a tub of popcorn, do you?

Both theatre and disc are delivery methods for the same content. Just because one makes it easier for you to circumvent it's protection than the other, does not mean that you're any more right to do so.

Makes some great points. To battle logic like this people like CraigW will call you a fear mongerer, and offer ZERO facts and Zero logic. They think name calling proves a pont.


I never called anyone names. Unless you totally understand BD+, I don't think the HD DVD crowd should be telling people what could possibly happen with BD+. Most of it is hearsay.

I never claimed to be a proponent of DRM. To me though if I put a disc is my player and press play and it does what I am expecting while BD+ is checking the validity of the disc in the background it does not scare me too much.

Again people you buy a license to play these movies you are not buying the right to copy, alter, or do anything else.

I said it before and I will say it again, if BD+ is envoked to the point that players are bricked and it impacts consumers who use the machines as legally intended, the BD studios are going to have a PR nightmare on their hand.

I don't have a problem if they go after people who are distributing illegal/hacked copies.

We need to raise these questions, and have them addressed now, before players start being bricked. Nothing would be worse than to get beyond the point of no return and then have players start getting bricked.


Kind of like MS should have figured out what was bricking a third of the 360s before they were released.

You can argue the same old arguments about the legality, morality and practicality of DRM all you want.

In practice, It's not a good idea to shut down someones equipment. Once word gets out to the general confused public that Sony might lock up their $800 player they won't buy that player. They just want to play a disk and could care less about its pedigree.

I don't buy Sony anymore after wasting a day rebuilding my niece's computer after it was infected by their rootkit.

--- CHAS

Again people you buy a license to play these movies you are not buying the right to copy, alter, or do anything else.

I said it before and I will say it again, if BD+ is envoked to the point that players are bricked and it impacts consumers who use the machines as legally intended, the BD studios are going to have a PR nightmare on their hand.

I don't have a problem if they go after people who are distributing illegal/hacked copies.

You buy into this "you aren't buying a copy of the movie but a license to play it as they say how" mentality.

That isn't how things should be nor is that supported via copyright law.

Here's some good reading on it...

http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/fair_use_and_drm.html

Copyright law has exceptions for consumer fair use. It isn't an all-powerful law saying "anyone who owns copyrighted content have 100% control over all its aspects". Thus the VCR fair use Supreme Court decision.

They wanted the VCR illegal since you could use it to abuse copywright and they didn't think you had the right to timeshift TV content (and I assume fast forwarding past commercials).

If you are of the mentality that you are just getting a license to watch the content how they choose and with restrictions they want, then you should also agree that if you watch something on TV you shouldn't be allowed to record it or skip commercials as that is violating their control over the content. That's their control over the content you are violating.

Copyright law is a 2-way street. It is supposed to protect intellectual property, but it is also supposed to protect the consumer's rights to reasonable use of that property. As the EFF puts it:


Fair use serves a crucial role in limiting the reach of what would otherwise be an intolerably expansive grant of rights to copyright owners. Were it not for the fair use doctrine, each of the following activities would be infringing:

whistling a tune while walking down the street (public performance)
cutting out a New Yorker cartoon and posting it on your office door (public display)
photocopying a newspaper article for your files (reproduction)
quoting a line from The Simpsons in an email to a coworker (reproduction)
reverse engineering of computer code (reproduction)
"time-shifting" a radio or television program (reproduction)
playing an excerpt of Roy Orbison's "Pretty Woman" in a copyright law course (public performance)
quoting from a novel in a review (reproduction)



Keep in mind: Starforce (google it) copy protection was only designed to stop people from using pirated software. Instead for some people it resulted in system-level interference with legitimate disc burning and sometimes bricking optical drives.

It's not wrong to voice your opinion, however you appear to be operating under a misunderstanding of the product you're purchasing.

No, I'm not.

What you're buying is the ability to watch a movie owned by someone else under whatever controls they feel fit to place around it. It's like a ticket to the cinema, only you can use it whenever you want, wherever you want, and as many times as you want, provided you abide by the rules. You don't take an HD camera to the movies, set it up in the aisle, and record the entire film just because you bought a ticket and a tub of popcorn, do you?

No, but I'm going on precedent. With CD, I purchase the disc, I own the disc. Copyright makes it illegal for me to distribute the disc to third parties, but that is essentially it. As long as I don't distribute said CD to others (without the permission of the Copyright holder) I can do whatever I want.

DVD in practice, is exactly the same.

All I want is a product that is equally compatible, portable, functional as CD was. The content industry has never liked the limited extend of their rights (and their rights are limited), and it's just now technology is to a point where they can try and extend their rights beyond what Copyright provides.

The way I look at new media with DRM is, it's taking away completely legitimate functionality that was present on older formats, and I'm amazed to some extent that so few people seem to care.

One more thing, and an example of how DRM is bad. DRM stifles innovation, one needs look no farther than DVD compared to CD.

With CD, which is unprotected, over the past years we've seen an explosion of home music distribution sytems, Sonos, Squeezebox, Roku, to name a few. We've seen an explosion of portable music players. An entire industry has grown up around "place shifting" digital music. When CD was created, nobody imagined it would become used in the way it has been, nobody considered that people would load their purchased CDs onto digital music servers and pipe them throughout the home.

Now DVD has a (rudimentary) form of copy protection, and as a result there is only one product that can "place shift" DVDs, Kaleidescape. However a quick look in the HTPC forum will show that there is significant consumer interest in something like Kaleidescape. The idea of "place shifting" DVDs has great appeal to the consumer, yet because of DRM, the only ones who will tackle that open market are those who can live in the gray area of dealing with "unencrypted DVDs" (meaning ripped). Imagine how much different the landscape would be if DVD were as open as CD. There would (most likely) be DVD servers in all shapes and size, all budgets. And don't discount the positive impact of such devices on media sales. I buy movies because I can put them on my media server. Without that capability, I most likely wouldn't bother. As with CD, nobody planned, thought about, imagined DVD servers becoming a popular thing, and because of that lack of forethought/vision, and coupled with DRM, the media server market was killed before it got off the ground.

Fast forward to HD DVD and Blu-ray. Both are protected with "unsinkable" copy protection (which well, far from unsinkable) but more than that, it's protected by massive corporations with huge legal weight, sitting ready to thrust their full legal weight on anyone who gets even the slightest bit out of "line". Because of that, we're in an even worse situation, innovation wise. Compare the situation to that of DVD. With DVD we have countless players, and for PCs, all it takes is to leverage some common building blocks to make a world class DVD player. Any media app can play DVD so long as the right "filters" are installed, there are open source, free, for-profit solutions out there. Contrast HD DVD and Blu-ray, where there are only two, both crappy players, and because of the restrictions placed by AACS, there quite possibly won't be any others.

The CP/DRM on HD DVD and BD are even more stifling than that of DVD, they're even more preventative of innovation.

The biggest problem with DRM is that it completely stifles innovation. With DRM, especially on the level of AACS or BD+, where unless you've got millions of dollars to get the right licenses and develop the "protected" media pathways, you simply can't produce products. DRM is inherently anti-competitive.

And what's even worse about DRM, is that it simply doesn't work. It's as simple as that, it stifle innovation, restricts consumer rights, and to top it all off, it doesn't even work. Those who DRM is intended to stop, invariably find ways around it quickly, and the very activity that DRM is designed to prevent, goes on in spite of it. Heck, it could even be argued that it goes on because of it. Just read some of the more radical comments about DRM. DRM has make the content industry into an evil empire, hated perhaps more than even Microsoft. And for some (not that I approve or agree) "freeing" content is seen as a valiant cause.

DRM just won't work because for it to work, people have to accept it, and people inherently just don't accept restrictions. The sooner the content industry realizes DRM is doing them more harm than good (like EMI seems to have), the better it will be for everyone.