http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/211486/The_Beginning_of_the_End_for_HD_DVD_

he high-def battle between Blu-ray and HD-DVD is no longer about the consumer, but about partnerships. If you thought the choice was up to you, think again. The Blu-ray camp is playing its cards right, winning another hand that will hurt the competition.

Digital Journal — The battle between high-definition DVD formats, Blu-ray and HD-DVD, has been heated for more than a year now. One camp publishes numbers saying players are selling well, then the other publishes a study saying more people prefer the way they do special features on a disc.

It's a confusing mess for the consumer, a frustrating process for anyone who thinks to themselves: Just get the whole thing over with already so the price can come down and I can get me a player.

Well, that could very well be happening but it might not be obvious to everyone yet. The Blu-ray team is the shark prowling the high-def waters, eating up everything just beneath the surface.

This week, retail giant Target announced it will only carry the Sony-backed Blu-ray format through the lucrative holiday shopping season, dealing a huge blow to Toshiba right between the HD-DVD players. Target is the second largest retailer in the United States.

Target released a statement saying they would carry Blu-ray stand-alone players exclusively "at least through the holiday season" and will add to the inventory of titles they carry for the player (they haven't totally killed HD-DVD - more on that in a minute). The deal will start in October and promote Sony's BDP-S300 player that sells for about $500.

Target is the second major retailer to go with the Blu-ray format, after Blockbuster announced its U.S. plans to do the same in June. Blockbuster said Blu-ray rentals are "significantly outpacing HD-DVD rentals."

A report published by Forbes says Target chose Blu-ray to help create resolution in the format war that has kept "confused consumers from rushing to buy new DVD players until they can determine which format will dominate the market."

HD-DVD stand-alone players will still be sold on Target's website, but in store the only HD-DVD player you will find will be the add-on for the Xbox 360. Anyone who wants choice needs both players in front of them, so HD-DVD will undeniably be hurt by Target's move, regardless if the players are still sold online.

Toshiba and the HD-DVD team were no doubt a little shaken by Target's announcement; as Ken Graffeo, Executive Vice President of HD Strategic Marketing for Universal Studios Home Entertainment, said in a statement:

Target will continue to carry the Xbox 360 HD DVD drive as well as HD DVD titles so we don't see much of a change in their plans to carry both formats. In fact, they continue to sell Toshiba HD DVD players on their web site. Sony appears to have bought an end cap, just as HD DVD has in retail stores such as BestBuy and Circuit City.

What's important is that stand alone HD-DVD players are still much more affordable than Blu-ray players, plus they offer a better experience - just compare titles appearing in both formats like "300" or "Blood Diamond." Ultimately consumers will be the ones that determine what format provides the greatest value.

The war between Blu-ray and HD-DVD is evolving into a battle that is being fought behind the scenes. The idea that the consumer will be the one to decide the winner of the format war is an illusion. Forget about features, price, technology — none of that matters anymore. It's now about smoke and mirrors.

The format war will be won by partnerships, because an HD-DVD player will not come out on top if nobody can find it. And Microsoft's Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on will not be the saving grace for the format. Consumers, Ma and Pa, will want a stand-alone player, not a gaming console.

The problem with the format war now, is that it is fighting on three fronts; in North America, in Europe and in Japan.

In North America, we hear about Blu-ray sales doing well; Digital Entertainment Group (a group that promotes both formats) says 1.5 million Blu-ray players have been sold in the U.S. (1.4 million of those players were PlayStation 3 consoles). HD-DVD, on the other hand, has only sold 300,000 HD-DVD players according to Digital Entertainment Group (and half of those are the external HD-DVD drive that comes with the Xbox 360). Sony's PS3 has been an enormous success for Blu-ray in North America.

But in Europe, the game is much different, as HD-DVD stand-alone players have outsold Blu-ray three-to-one according to Reuters.

And finally, the mess is made more confusing by executives who spin numbers to make them look like they are out ahead; take a look at how HD-DVD exec Ken Graffeo spins increased sales percentage to sound like Toshiba has sold more units in total than Blu-ray competitors. He notes how HD-DVD sales are up 37 per cent while Blu-ray is down 27 per cent. Of course he's paid to spin the numbers to sound great, but when you aren't working with real numbers of units shipped, a percentage increase or decrease means absolutely nothing. Total unit sales are all that matters.

And so we leave you, Mr. and Mrs. consumer in a tricky spot: The bad news is that it's still not quite over, and both Blu-ray and HD-DVD teams have so much money invested in winning that they will do whatever it takes to win — even if it means deceiving or confusing you to the point where you think you should be locked up in a padded room out of sheer frustration. Numbers are twisted almost everywhere they are reported and the talking heads from both sides spew more emissions than coal-fired plants.

But the good news is, perhaps we are all lucky Blu-ray is strong-arming the industry from behind the scenes. At least it will put an end to this battle and we can all pick up a Blu-ray player knowing it won't be obsolete in six months.

That is, until another format emerges.

Another format war article that seems to see the writing on the wall. Nice to see. The third from the last paragraph couldnt be more true.

Rehash of Target, Blockbuster, etc.

Consumers are confused if they follow this battle. One day they hear that HD DVD is outselling the competition and the next day they hear it's the beginning of the end.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/211486/The_Beginning_of_the_End_for_HD_DVD_



Another format war article that seems to see the writing on the wall. Nice to see. The third from the last paragraph couldnt be more true.

I like this one:

But the good news is, perhaps we are all lucky Blu-ray is strong-arming the industry from behind the scenes.

I like this one:

But the good news is, perhaps we are all lucky Blu-ray is strong-arming the industry from behind the scenes.

Journalism is dead.

The lines between news and Editorializing has blurred to the point where there seems to be no distinction. Consumers have to be confused.

A simple summation to all the latest news. HD DVD is simply a punching bad to Blu Ray's marketing team. Giant retailer after giant retailer is going Blu Only. Forcing an end is the best for all consumers.

I was not aware Target released any such statement as this article mentions. Only Sony released a PR that now seems had more hot air than truth....Sony is going by a simple game plan. Repeat a lie long enough and people will believe it. Use 2nd and 3rd tier journals and editors to make your point....anyone remember phase hydra?

To condome unethical behavior is not cool in my books. But it's up to you what works for you....I never much liked the school yard bully. Not then, and not now. I never sucked up to the bully either....some do.

A simple summation to all the latest news. HD DVD is simply a punching bad to Blu Ray's marketing team. Giant retailer after giant retailer is going Blu Only. Forcing an end is the best for all consumers.
Yeah, riiiightttt. Forcing an 'end' means prices going back up when there's no competitor. Don't fool yourself. HD DVD is here to stay.

Well, while you were analyzing him, the bully made the rules, punched you in the nose and enforced his law...

Not that has anything to do with this but one can always debunk meaningless analogies with the like.

To condome unethical behavior is not cool in my books. But it's up to you what works for you....I never much liked the school yard bully. Not then, and not now. I never sucked up to the bully either....some do.
+1

Forcing an end is the best for all consumers.


I think not bland, if there was no war at all, BR or HD-DVD players would be in the thousand dollar range. Competition is good for the consumer not bad.


Rob

To condome unethical behavior is not cool in my books. But it's up to you what works for you....I never much liked the school yard bully. Not then, and not now. I never sucked up to the bully either....some do.


You must have a HUGE problem with Microsoft then.

This has been going on a year or so. Few can afford both players so as to not be discriminated against in terms of the content they want. Whoever wins will result in great players from multiple manufacturers, all the content being eventually released and less consumer apathy in picking the right player when they'd rather not wait out a long war. Eventually, a player of either format will be solid, cheap and able to play a lot of content. Moreover, the calm will return here to the forum...:D

Well, while you were analyzing him, the bully made the rules, punched you in the nose and enforced his law...

Not that has anything to do with this but one can always debunk meaningless analogies with the like.

Yes anyone can do this ..but not well. If a bully hits you and you're still standing...have you really been bullied? Bullies generally talk talk talk and don't follow up with action. A bully is the type of person you want to fight because a smack back in the mouth generally shuts them up.

To condome unethical behavior is not cool in my books. But it's up to you what works for you....I never much liked the school yard bully. Not then, and not now. I never sucked up to the bully either....some do.

I'm really not surprised at this point that articles like this are churning out on a seemingly daily basis. While I cannot prove anything beyond pure speculation, I find it interesting that most of these articles seem to root themselves with 2nd and 3rd tier journalists and blogs like you mentioned, only to be debunked a few days later. I recognize the two opposite ended business models that each camp is pursuing right now, and I have honestly become very frustrated with Sony's (not blu-ray as a whole) tactics as of late. Once the BD 1.1 spec is finalized and the third generation players debut, I will probably drop the cash for one, but not Sony. Like you, I'd rather ignore the bully.

Not that has anything to do with this but one can always debunk meaningless analogies with the like.

And we all know how you feel about analogies...... :rolleyes:

Can anyone be a reporter these days?!?

This week, retail giant Target announced it will only carry the Sony-backed Blu-ray format through the lucrative holiday shopping season, dealing a huge blow to Toshiba right between the HD-DVD players.

>> Target announced no such thing. Sony paid for and issued the PR, filled with quotes by Sony, not by Target. And they paid for an exclusive for their players, via end cap purchases--nothing more, nothing less. That this "big news" is still being debated is beyond ridiculous.

Target released a statement saying...

>> Again, Target released no statement. Sony issued the press release in question. And again, Sony stated in the press release that it's a promotion.

A report published by Forbes says Target chose Blu-ray to help create resolution in the format war that has kept "confused consumers from rushing to buy new DVD players until they can determine which format will dominate the market."

>> Wow that's sloppy reporting. Target didn't choose Blu-ray, Target "chose" Sony Blu-ray players (player, really) because Sony paid them to do so via an exclusive seasonal promotion...a wise use of funds, I might add.

A simple summation to all the latest news. HD DVD is simply a punching bad to Blu Ray's marketing team. Giant retailer after giant retailer is going Blu Only. Forcing an end is the best for all consumers.
It looks like Sony has learned is marketing lessons at last. We chose an inferior format (VHS) over Beta. Now it seems we may be choosing an inferior format once again (Blu-ray) over HD DVD. Although the Target exclusivity news may or may not be correct (http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/28/false-alarm-targets-not-giving-up-on-hd-dvd/) I feel that BR will win this war.

A note to everyone, please don't flame me if you disagree and believe BR to be a better format or if you think HD DVD will win this war. These are my opinions and of course YMMV. I love my HD DVD and will keep my player and discs for many years to come but I fear I will have a need to purchase at BR player in the near future.

Press release journalism................shame

Well, while you were analyzing him, the bully made the rules, punched you in the nose and enforced his law...

Not that has anything to do with this but one can always debunk meaningless analogies with the like.

It is a known fact that every bully is a coward inside and ALL wind up in the dirt.

And we all know how you feel about analogies...... :rolleyes:

I don't like them because they are unrelated to the topic at hand and serve only smoke and mirrors purposes.

I see analogies as a way to spin/distort the facts into a simpler, more compact form that many can visualize easily. The good analogy on its own always drinks nicely and goes down easy... but, almost by hypnosis to the agreeing party, makes the argued point stronger...Problem is, after the great buzz you get from the analogy, you snap out of it and say...Good analogy!...but what did I agree with? An analogy is like a slick grifter conning your good sense. An analogy makes arguing an inarguable point possible as you are simplifying a difficult argument by using nothing related to the topic at hand (e.g. a bully's attitude and Blu Ray in Target). Not related in any aspect but combined to make the point at any cost. I suppose with a few glasses of wine, there may be some sort of connection....;) Just the facts please.....

It is a known fact that every bully is a coward inside and ALL wind up in the dirt.

Agreed...But no relevence to Target.

ONLY QUOTE FROM TARGET

Target spokesman Brie Heath said: Target is “simply merchandising Blu-ray hardware as the initial foray into this exciting category. As with all our merchandise, we will track guest feedback and adjust as necessary.

“We are not proclaiming one format versus the other as the preferred consumer technology,” she added. “Software will continue to be available to our guests in both the Blu-ray and the HD DVD formats. Target is committed to providing our guests with exceptional technology solutions. Blu-ray is one of many solutions that our guests will find at Target.”

Yet, we are only going to sell HD DVD on-line....talk about spin.

ONLY QUOTE FROM TARGET
That's a real slap in the face to Sony for their wild claim

That article is an interesting study of what's really happening in the world of perception outside of AVS. This forum is one of the very few places on the net where there is still a modicum of parity in perception between the blue cased discs and the red cased discs.

If you take a step outside of this forum, much of the rest of the outside world believes that Blu-ray is winning the format war. I don't really agree with that perception, even as a Blu-ray owner, but we're seeing a lot more Blu-tinted articles than neutral or red-tinted of late, and it's not because the media is biased; they're just resonating with what they are seeing and hearing. There's a groundswell of sentiment out there. Even in places where you'd think HD DVD would get talked up like forums dedicated to discussion of the Xbox 360, Blu-ray is still given a grudging nod of being ahead.

You can say anything you like about the tactics being used to achieve these ends, but the BDA has to be pretty happy with what they're seeing online, in the media, and by word of mouth. I think it's fair to say at this point that they have had substantial success in convincing the public that they're winning the format war.

I think Toshiba and the HD DVD PRG, if they are at all serious about winning the format war, need to find a way to bring some uncertainty back into the discussions. I see a lot of people here saying they're saving their resources and biding their time before the holidays; that's a load of manure. You don't take a PR vacation while in the midst of a battle for marketing survival. Too many bad things can happen... and too many bad things ARE happening for HD DVD. They need to step up to the plate and prove that HD DVD is here to stay - not to the HD DVD faithful - but to the uninformed but uneasy consumers out there who are getting pelted with positive Blu-ray spin.

I didn't think this format war would be effectively over until at least early 2008 (in fact, I still don't), but unless something pivotal happens in the next three months to turn public perception around, it seems to me that the current trends that exist outside of the neutral bubble of AVS are going to set the stage for a very embarassing holiday season for HD DVD.

The idea of the customer "choosing" in this format war has proven something of a fiction.

With about 2% combined effective penetration, these formats are going nowhere with most customers.

Almost everyone I know is eagerly waiting to buy an HDM player BUT is also waiting for the format war to be shut down. People do not see much difference between the formats but are keenly aware that they could make the wrong choice. Hence they "choose" to wait.

The retailers that are beginning to help move us along to the end of the process are right to step up to the plate. Along with the consumer, they have carried the brunt of the nonsense: low sales, high degrees of customer anxiety, difficult explanations and distinctions to make.

I do object to the anti-Sony slant to this story. Sony is trying to win just like Toshiba and Microsoft are trying to win. All parties have tried their best and used many tactics in this format war.

ONLY QUOTE FROM TARGET

One has to understand the way the retail game is played. On the one side, retailers don't want to offend any vendor. On the other, they continually have to make choices about which products and vendors are going to win and which they will want to carry.

In this case, it is very clear that Target has decided that Blu-ray is ahead in the format war and they want to move forward with that as the resolution. The soft words of this quote simply are the typical way of being politically correct.

ONLY QUOTES IN TARGET ARTICLE BESIDES TARGET

Ken Graffeo

Ken Graffeo, EVP of HD DVD for Universal Studios Home Entertainment, downplays the significance of the Target move.

“All they are announcing is they are merchandising an endcap with Blu-ray, which is normal merchandising at any retailer,” he said. “Just like HD DVD has a dedicated endcap at Best Buy, and a dedicated endcap at Circuit City, and dedicated space and fixturing at Wal-mart.

“Target is not making any statement about the format. They are merely providing an endcap, with a cost associated with it. The question I ask is, knowing that HD DVD is the most affordable high-definition format, it will be very interesting to see how the Sony player will appeal to Target guests.”

AUTHORS WORDS:

Target for now does not sell any high-definition disc players in its stores, although a Toshiba HD DVD player is for sale on the Target Web site for $299. Target does carry HD DVD software in its home video sections alongside Blu-ray Disc titles.

DAVID BISHOP

“I think what you’re seeing is that retailers are deciding,” Bishop said. “This is the beginning of a trend. Retailers are very impatient now. It’s not like DVD sales are in rapid growth mode the way they were three or four years ago. They are flat or in a state of decline, and retailers can no longer wait for us to figure this out."

“I think what you’re seeing is that retailers are deciding,” Bishop said. “This is the beginning of a trend. Retailers are very impatient now. It’s not like DVD sales are in rapid growth mode the way they were three or four years ago. They are flat or in a state of decline, and retailers can no longer wait for us to figure this out."

“will clearly communicate to the consumer” that Blu-ray is the format to buy.

“We think this is a big step in clarifying the decision to the consumer,” Bishop said.

The essential message is players with substantially more features at 1/2 to 1/10th the cost, and movies that can, do and will take advantage of them, unlike the other side. However it requires the "journalists" to tell J6P the facts instead of repeating BDA press releases.

That article is an interesting study of what's really happening in the world of perception outside of AVS. This forum is one of the very few places on the net where there is still a modicum of parity in perception between the blue cased discs and the red cased discs.

If you take a step outside of this forum, much of the rest of the outside world believes that Blu-ray is winning the format war. I don't really agree with that perception, even as a Blu-ray owner, but we're seeing a lot more Blu-tinted articles than neutral or red-tinted of late, and it's not because the media is biased; they're just resonating with what they are seeing and hearing. There's a groundswell of sentiment out there. Even in places where you'd think HD DVD would get talked up like forums dedicated to discussion of the Xbox 360, Blu-ray is still given a grudging nod of being ahead.

You can say anything you like about the tactics being used to achieve these ends, but the BDA has to be pretty happy with what they're seeing online, in the media, and by word of mouth. I think it's fair to say at this point that they have had substantial success in convincing the public that they're winning the format war.

I think Toshiba and the HD DVD PRG, if they are at all serious about winning the format war, need to find a way to bring some uncertainty back into the discussions. I see a lot of people here saying they're saving their resources and biding their time before the holidays; that's a load of manure. You don't take a PR vacation while in the midst of a battle for marketing survival. Too many bad things can happen... and too many bad things ARE happening for HD DVD. They need to step up to the plate and prove that HD DVD is here to stay - not to the HD DVD faithful - but to the uninformed but uneasy consumers out there who are getting pelted with positive Blu-ray spin.

I didn't think this format war would be effectively over until at least early 2008 (in fact, I still don't), but unless something pivotal happens in the next three months to turn public perception around, it seems to me that the current trends that exist outside of the neutral bubble of AVS are going to set the stage for a very embarassing holiday season for HD DVD.

Ice..you're giving the "World" too much credit. My gf and her father were watching Shaun of the Dead on Friday night (my recommendation- they thought it was funny) and her father started to inquire about HD movies and formats. He knows there are two formats but he doesn't know what they're called or what studios support the respective formats.

I liken him to the majority of people out there that knew they need to go HD but dont' know the details. They don't follow the press release about what Target, Blockbuster or Best Buy are doing. They get adds in the Sunday paper find out who's selling what they want and they hit the store.

Right now you have two polar opposities. HD DVD fans stating such announcements don't matter vs Blu-ray fans stating they do matter. Chances are the the answer is in the middle. It does matter but not so much at this juncture when consumers are still transitioning to HDTV.

For the record even thought my gf knows I don't support Blu-ray I told her that her father would be best served by a Blu-ray player. He's a no fuss guy that loves toys (he's a photog with more cameras than I've seen anyone ever own) but I know with AV stuff he just wants to pop a disc in and play and thus the studio advantage with Blu-ray is the most important advantage here.

I do object to the anti-Sony slant to this story. Sony is trying to win just like Toshiba and Microsoft are trying to win. All parties have tried their best and used many tactics in this format war.

"Its not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me." :D

In all seriousness, I do understand the tactics being used. Both sides want to win. Sony is pushing the bully-like aggressive method, Toshiba is playing the humble but confidence card, and Microsoft probably doesn't care in the end as long as they can rake in royalties for companies using their VC-1 codec. To each their own, but I still don't like Sony's tactics. I never have, and I never will. Will this stop me from purchasing a blu-ray player? Nope, but I can guarantee it will not be a Sony.

The essential message is players with substantially more features at 1/2 to 1/10th the cost, and movies that can, do and will take advantage of them, unlike the other side. However it requires the "journalists" to tell J6P the facts instead of repeating BDA press releases.

So what happens if/when J6P does start buying some S300's at Target and A2's at CC or BB. Very happy - HD movies . . . until . . . .

"Hey Fred - come over and watch 300 with me in HD"

"Bill - I already have HD - I bought an A2 - what did you buy?"

"Fred - the Sony S300"

"Bill - isn't it a great picture? - don't you love that PIP feature where the director is showing us how they filmed the special effects."

"Fred - What the hell are you talking about? I don't have anything like that!"

:D

Ken Graffeo: “Just like HD DVD has a dedicated endcap at Best Buy, and a dedicated endcap at Circuit City, and dedicated space and fixturing at Wal-mart.”

Is this an inadvertant slip of HD-DVD strategy for this winter? Beats Target by a mile.

Ken Graffeo: “Just like HD DVD has a dedicated endcap at Best Buy, and a dedicated endcap at Circuit City, and dedicated space and fixturing at Wal-mart.”

Is this an inadvertant slip of HD-DVD strategy for this winter? Beats Target by a mile.

Toshiba HD-A2W
:D

much of the rest of the outside world believes that Blu-ray is winning the format war. Much of the rest of the world could care less. Regular DVDs look good enough on their HDTVs that they see no need in investing in Hi def disc technology. Heck, there's still a significant percentage of HDTV owners who aren't watching HDTV programming ..but think they are! We are so far away from significant market penetration that, by the time J6P cares, spinning disc technology may very well be a thing of the past.

Much of the rest of the world could care less. Regular DVDs look good enough on their HDTVs that they see no need in investing in Hi def disc technology. Heck, there's still a significant percentage of HDTV owners who aren't watching HDTV programming ..but think they are! We are so far away from significant market penetration that, by the time J6P cares, spinning disc technology may very well be a thing of the past.

Don:

DVD numbers just published . . SID 3/97 - World Wide:

Players .................................210 million

DVD's.....................................8 billion

HDM has a Looooong way to go.

Ken Graffeo: “Just like HD DVD has a dedicated endcap at Best Buy, and a dedicated endcap at Circuit City, and dedicated space and fixturing at Wal-mart.”

Is this an inadvertant slip of HD-DVD strategy for this winter? Beats Target by a mile.

The difference is that the other stores also sell and display Blu-ray. Indeed, in most Best Buys that I have visited, Blu-ray predominates. The important point is that Target does not also plan to display HD DVD.

Much of the rest of the world could care less. Regular DVDs look good enough on their HDTVs that they see no need in investing in Hi def disc technology. Heck, there's still a significant percentage of HDTV owners who aren't watching HDTV programming ..but think they are! We are so far away from significant market penetration that, by the time J6P cares, spinning disc technology may very well be a thing of the past.


Sigh..this is so true. I've seen it myself. If you have a screen that is 42" or less HD is of course going to look better but DVD looks suprisingly close when upscaling is available.

Perhaps these companies should start marking 50"+ screens at bargain basement pricing. It's only when you get above 50" that one can start seeing the resolution advantages of HD (that's my story and I'm sticking to it)

HDM has a Looooong way to go.

Like two fleas in a pissing contest over who gets the dog.

The difference is that the other stores also sell and display Blu-ray. Indeed, in most Best Buys that I have visited, Blu-ray predominates. The important point is that Target does not also plan to display HD DVD.
Walmart is the 800# gorilla

"Bill - isn't it a great picture? - don't you love that PIP feature where the director is showing us how they filmed the special effects."

"Fred - What the hell are you talking about? I don't have anything like that!"

:DAnd yet, more people are buying the Blu-ray version. I guess they just don't care no matter how much you talk about it.

Here's another scenario:

F: Hey, Bill, wanna watch an HD movie?

B: Sure, Fred. What do you have?

F: All the Pirates movies, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Casino Royale, Spider-Man 3, Cars, Evil Dead II, the original Dawn/Day of the Dead, Apocalypto, Donnie Brasco, Layer Cake, The Usual Suspects. A bunch. What about you?

B: Um...Evan Almighty and Timecop?

Much of the rest of the world could care less. Regular DVDs look good enough on their HDTVs that they see no need in investing in Hi def disc technology. Heck, there's still a significant percentage of HDTV owners who aren't watching HDTV programming ..but think they are! We are so far away from significant market penetration that, by the time J6P cares, spinning disc technology may very well be a thing of the past.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I agree completely. Just because they're hearing that there's these new discs doesn't mean they're going to rush out and buy a player (particularly not at the hardware and software price points we have today).

My point is that, for those that are ready to take the plunge, there is going to be a strong mental disposition to back the perceived winner. These are the people that are going to be buying high def players this holiday season; not your average consumer. Just the dissatisfied new HDTV owners who are looking for that extra special something this holiday to spice up their home entertainment.

Much of the rest of the world could care less. Regular DVDs look good enough on their HDTVs that they see no need in investing in Hi def disc technology. Heck, there's still a significant percentage of HDTV owners who aren't watching HDTV programming ..but think they are! We are so far away from significant market penetration that, by the time J6P cares, spinning disc technology may very well be a thing of the past.

People are buying HDTV sets in huge numbers. Indeed, in May "full 1080P" sets sold very well, surprising market observers.

In the HDM format war, we are not talking about J6P at this stage, we are talking about the "early mddle" adopters, the folks that are going to get us from 2% to 10%. They are waiting for a conclusion to the format war but are eager to buy.

If the format war drags on too long, you could be right of course about the end of "spinning discs".

My prediction is that if we can shut down the format war by early 2008, we will see huge growth in HDM players and disks within the following 18 months. I am predicting a growth so big and so fast that we will see HDM sales of new titles going over 50% in under 5 years and a clear replacement of DVD following.

Walmart is the 800# gorilla

The vision of Walmart selling $99 HD DVD players and swamping the market is an appealing one to HD DVD supporters, no question.

Making the market is not exactly something that Walmart has done in the past. It is more their style to follow an established trend with lower priced merchandise.

It is actually more like them to offer a cheap Blu-ray player, given the current market positions of the two formats and the likely fall release schedules. I am not suggesting that they will do this of course, but it is a thought.

Whoever wins will result in great players from multiple manufacturers,


Woah, wait wait wait. I thought this was one of the big selling points to Blu-ray. All the CE's who currently make players.

So if Blu-ray ALREADY has this supposed multiple manufacturer advantage, what is the excuse as to why the players aren't mainstream priced? What exactly is going to be different if HD DVD wasn't there? You think Toshiba is going to just climb on board with a cheap Blu-ray player?


There's so much contridiction that happens with Blu-ray marketing here that it boggles the mind that no one else picks up on comments like this.

I like this one:

But the good news is, perhaps we are all lucky Blu-ray is strong-arming the industry from behind the scenes.


Is it any wonder that the EU is investigating Sony and BDA?

...An analogy is like a slick grifter conning your good sense.....

Sounds like an analogy to me... ;)

With about 2% combined effective penetration, these formats are going nowhere with most customers.

Almost everyone I know is eagerly waiting to buy an HDM player BUT is also waiting for the format war to be shut down. People do not see much difference between the formats but are keenly aware that they could make the wrong choice. Hence they "choose" to wait.


Everyone and I do mean everyone I know remains either uninterested due to cost or they consider DVD to be good enough to meet their needs. Lol, that includes the one gent who won his PS3 at the company Christmas party. Only one person has asked me of my opinion on BR vs HD DVD.

Yes, there are several individuals with surround systems and they haven't bought into HD media either. Those individuals are the most curious amongst who I work with.

FWIW, the company I work for specializes in Oracle consulting, has achieved the highest level of partnership with Oracle and has made Partner of the Year within the US. We are very well compensated.

If people like whom I work for all intents and purposes don't give a damn about HD media right now, then ending the war "now" may not be the best path to large scale adoption. IMO, the quickest path to drive large scale adoption is to drive costs down to DVD player levels.

Can someone who is not an insider or receiving some sort of compensation explain this urgency to me to end the war now? What is the harm in letting things play out another year and a half? Are you afraid that the earth will stop rotating with the advent of sub $150 HD media players?

So its less than 2% now who have an HD media player. So what. Downloads are not going to be a serious challenge to HD media prior to HD media players becoming affordable to the masses.

Let the war continue.

You must have a HUGE problem with Microsoft then.

+1

:D

And yet, more people are buying the Blu-ray version. I guess they just don't care no matter how much you talk about it.

Here's another scenario:

F: Hey, Bill, wanna watch an HD movie?

B: Sure, Fred. What do you have?

F: All the Pirates movies, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Casino Royale, Spider-Man 3, Cars, Evil Dead II, the original Dawn/Day of the Dead, Apocalypto, Donnie Brasco, Layer Cake, The Usual Suspects. A bunch. What about you?

B: Um...Evan Almighty and Timecop?

"Gee Fred, i already own CEOTTK and Casino Royal. Also The Usual Suspects, Layer Cake, Donnie Brasco and Cars. Got Spiderman 1 & 2 also. And my kids watch those horror movies. "

"Yep this A2 I own really makes them look just like HD!"

B: Um...Evan Almighty and Timecop?

Interesting how you spin this like there are no good movies on HD-DVD.

Woah, wait wait wait. I thought this was one of the big selling points to Blu-ray. All the CE's who currently make players.

So if Blu-ray ALREADY has this supposed multiple manufacturer advantage, what is the excuse as to why the players aren't mainstream priced? What exactly is going to be different if HD DVD wasn't there? You think Toshiba is going to just climb on board with a cheap Blu-ray player?


There's so much contridiction that happens with Blu-ray marketing here that it boggles the mind that no one else picks up on comments like this.

I agree whole heartedly with you Michael. That is why we do not have $29 DVD players and 2 for $11 media at Walmart. If only DVD had a competing technology, we could get all this and more...

I agree whole heartedly with you Michael. That is why we do not have $29 DVD players and 2 for $11 media at Walmart. If only DVD had a competing technology, we could get all this and more...

DVD is a mature format where one should expect what you describe. Sony and BDA wants to milk consumers with high prices without the spectre of competietion to put them in check. On I forgot to mention Sony is hermoraging huge sums of money and they want to eliminate HD DVD in order to make it stop.

Why do we need another thread on this? There is nothing new here. Just another commentary on the Target press release. Could have been posted in one of the existing threads. I had meant to add Shug to my ignore list earlier for having a blatant agenda to crusade for BR, but I forgot. I guess some good has come out of this thread since it's given me a reminder.

It's intended to increase the propaganda by repetition. You see, if you say it enough times maybe it will be believed - whether it's true or not.

This has been going on a year or so. Few can afford both players so as to not be discriminated against in terms of the content they want. Whoever wins will result in great players from multiple manufacturers, all the content being eventually released and less consumer apathy in picking the right player when they'd rather not wait out a long war. Eventually, a player of either format will be solid, cheap and able to play a lot of content. Moreover, the calm will return here to the forum...:D

Here is it . . The cream of the crop!

Guess you are not aware that the Samsung players have a Broadcom 7440 SoC in them are you?

What does this mean? No profile 1.1 possible and no DTS-MA. P1000 and P1200. In a PC World article last week a Samsung executive was quoted . .

"No profile 1.1 players this year . . . 2008"

That means the 1400, 2400 and 5000 Duo are not Profile 1.1 compliant - No PIP - no DTS-MA

great players from multiple manufacturers

Well they sure as hell aren't doing it today!

UPDATE: And, sadly, you won't get support for the forthcoming update to Blu-ray's minimum player specs that go into effect October 31. Those specs delineate requirements for in-unit storage (256MB for those keeping score), picture-in-picture via a secondary audio and video decode, and ethernet-enabled interactivity. Samsung's own initial press release, distributed earlier today, noted the player will have local storage and picture-in-picture--however, it did not specify that those features would be strictly for HD DVD discs (the company has since updated their info). Later in the day I met with Samsung's Maria Colon, marketing manager, and Reid Sullivan, vice president of marketing; they clarified that the BD-UP5000's storage and picture-in-picture would only work or HD DVD discs, not Blu-ray Discs. Sullivan also said that Samsung would not have a Blu-ray player with the updated specs until 2008.
http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/004989.html

A simple summation to all the latest news. HD DVD is simply a punching bad to Blu Ray's marketing team. Giant retailer after giant retailer is going Blu Only. Forcing an end is the best for all consumers.
Uh, which giant retailer has done that?

The retailers that are beginning to help move us along to the end of the process are right to step up to the plate. Along with the consumer, they have carried the brunt of the nonsense: low sales, high degrees of customer anxiety, difficult explanations and distinctions to make.

If retailers wanted to "help" the poor confused consumer avoid the "evils and dangers" of the nasty ole free market competition then "they" should have refused to carry either product until the 2 sides agreed on a compromise.

Now that hundreds of thousands of consumers own hd dvd players and more joining every day there is no great "public service" being done for people by attempting to cut off the channels that lead to more movies for their device for some greater good. Who is to say that consumers would not be served just as well by both formats in the marketplace? Why is choice such a bad thing here for consumers?

This is about profit margins, plain and simple and where particular companies think they will make the most profit. Public good argument is a charade and a farce for PR statements, and frankly an offensive one at that. People are well able to choose among competing products every day, even in the realm of complex technology.

In North America, we hear about Blu-ray sales doing well; Digital Entertainment Group (a group that promotes both formats) says 1.5 million Blu-ray players have been sold in the U.S. (1.4 million of those players were PlayStation 3 consoles). HD-DVD, on the other hand, has only sold 300,000 HD-DVD players according to Digital Entertainment Group (and half of those are the external HD-DVD drive that comes with the Xbox 360). Sony's PS3 has been an enormous success for Blu-ray in North America.

But in Europe, the game is much different, as HD-DVD stand-alone players have outsold Blu-ray three-to-one according to Reuters.Whoever wrote that seems to have some trouble comprehending all this stuff. In the first they mention the PS3 sales and in the 2nd seem to have fallen for the thing about stand-alones in thinking that the game is much different there. From what I've seen the game there is similar with Blu-ray outselling HD DVD for software recently and HD DVD leading in standalone sales just like in the US, but with even lower numbers of standalones on both sides compared to PS3s and a higher ratio for standalones for HD DVD (but not enough to skew the software sales recently in their favor). From what I've seen the writer's statement:
Sony's PS3 has been an enormous success for Blu-ray in North America.is either true with regards to Europe or will be (even if it isn't from the gaming angle). If things continue as they've been going in Europe from accounts it looks to me like HD DVD is going to be able to say that they outsold Blu-ray for standalones for quite a while, but it won't be enough to actually win or even tie the war unless they change things from the current trend. It isn't enough to just sell more standalones when the other side has people buying a game system/movie player for watching their movies and they sell more discs and bring more studios and content to their side because of it. Even the announcement about a small studio releasing 4 IMAX titles on Blu-ray and not HD DVD mentioned that they went with Blu-ray because of the hardware advantage, although they would have liked to have released on both. Quite simply, stating that one side has the standalone hardware installed base advantage does not mean they have the hardware installed base advantage. Not if PS3s are contributing at anything like a 20% rate and outnumber the standalones by a lot. If HD DVD actually had the hardware advantage and were getting outsold 2:1 for software, that would be a pretty bad sign for their attach rates. It is one thing for a multipurpose device to have low attach rates (it is expected by anybody who understands this stuff), but quite another for standalones to have a low attach rate. I should mention that I don't think HD DVD has really bad attach rates, there is just spin to make it look like that have the hardware advantage when they don't, but if they did and software sales were as they are, it would mean they had pitiful attach rates considering their device types.

I would have liked the author to try an effective rate of 22% for the PS3 like the Paramount guy did and then see how things compared in each region.

--Darin

Uh, which giant retailer has done that?

Target . . #4?

I was not aware Target released any such statement as this article mentions. Only Sony released a PR that now seems had more hot air than truth....Sony is going by a simple game plan. Repeat a lie long enough and people will believe it. Use 2nd and 3rd tier journals and editors to make your point....anyone remember phase hydra?

To condome unethical behavior is not cool in my books. But it's up to you what works for you....I never much liked the school yard bully. Not then, and not now. I never sucked up to the bully either....some do.

Agreed, toadys appear to be in ample supply around here lately.

And yet, more people are buying the Blu-ray version. I guess they just don't care no matter how much you talk about it.

Here's another scenario:

F: Hey, Bill, wanna watch an HD movie?

B: Sure, Fred. What do you have?

F: All the Pirates movies, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Casino Royale, Spider-Man 3, Cars, Evil Dead II, the original Dawn/Day of the Dead, Apocalypto, Donnie Brasco, Layer Cake, The Usual Suspects. A bunch. What about you?

B: Um...Evan Almighty and Timecop?


Wow. How about you take the high road and respond maturely?

As of right now, both are about equal in number of discs total and number of exclusives.

Get both formats that way you can enjoy everything.

I would have liked the author to try an effective rate of 22% for the PS3 like the Paramount guy did and then see how things compared in each region.

--Darin

Tell the truth? In the media?

LMAO

In this case, it is very clear that Target has decided that Blu-ray is ahead in the format war and they want to move forward with that as the resolution. The soft words of this quote simply are the typical way of being politically correct.


This you are just making up. How many brands of BD players did Target comitte to other than the end cap Sony paid for? Answer: Zero. That's quite a comittment.

Target was carrying no stand alone HD players.
Then Sony paid for an endcap and got to put one of their players in the store.
That, to you, is Target deciding to favor one format or the other, in the face of them explicitly denying that?!? What evidence do you have that Toshiba couldn't pay them to put one of theirs in the store just as easily? Why are they still carrying the HD DVD add-on?

Dear lord I get tired of Blu-ray zealots jumping up and down and telling us HD DVD is about to die. YOU'VE BEEN DOING THAT FOR NEARLY 2 YEARS NOW. Please have some shame and stop it already.

Here is it . . The cream of the crop!

Guess you are not aware that the Samsung players have a Broadcom 7440 SoC in them are you?

What does this mean? No profile 1.1 possible and no DTS-MA. P1000 and P1200. In a PC World article last week a Samsung executive was quoted . .

"No profile 1.1 players this year . . . 2008"

That means the 1400, 2400 and 5000 Duo are not Profile 1.1 compliant - No PIP - no DTS-MA



Well they sure as hell aren't doing it today!

UPDATE: And, sadly, you won't get support for the forthcoming update to Blu-ray's minimum player specs that go into effect October 31. Those specs delineate requirements for in-unit storage (256MB for those keeping score), picture-in-picture via a secondary audio and video decode, and ethernet-enabled interactivity. Samsung's own initial press release, distributed earlier today, noted the player will have local storage and picture-in-picture--however, it did not specify that those features would be strictly for HD DVD discs (the company has since updated their info). Later in the day I met with Samsung's Maria Colon, marketing manager, and Reid Sullivan, vice president of marketing; they clarified that the BD-UP5000's storage and picture-in-picture would only work or HD DVD discs, not Blu-ray Discs. Sullivan also said that Samsung would not have a Blu-ray player with the updated specs until 2008.
http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/004989.html


HD PIP...what a waste. Spin..movies are what it is all about and ALL players now and in the future will play all BD movies and all PIP.

What are we on now? The millionth "nail" in the coffin? Thats one stubbourn coffin :rolleyes:

HD PIP...what a waste. Spin..movies are what it is all about and ALL players now and in the future will play all BD movies and all PIP.

You are 100% sure of that are you? Cause I am 100% sure that is a false statement. - PIP is a feature of Profile 1.1. The ONLY BD player that has announced it will be 1.1 compliant is the Denon $2000 player. I know for a fact that the Samsungs can't - wrong SoC. You need the SIGMA 8634 and they don't have it. No firmware fix - hardware fix only. (Not discussing PS3 - only BD SAL's)

Play all BD movies - 100% correct. . . . .Play all PIP . . . 100% wrong

This is the reason WB is holding back those titles. This is the reason why Paramount is releasing ST-TOS only on HD DVD. This is the reason for different editions of BLOOD DIAMONDS and 300

And YOU may not like extra features but the public does. Or else Hollywood wouldn't try to sell them.

I agree whole heartedly with you Michael. That is why we do not have $29 DVD players and 2 for $11 media at Walmart. If only DVD had a competing technology, we could get all this and more...

You mean $29 players like these?

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4810670

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5824921

Actually, the Magnavox player is $29.98. Technically I guess that's above $29. ;)

Huh? I have been kinda busy today but I check in and find this thread.

So...did Blu-ray win again? I'm having a hard time keeping score.

You mean $29 players like these?

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4810670

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5824921

Actually, the Magnavox player is $29.98. Technically I guess that's above $29. ;)
I was at Walmart last night. They had a huge stack of those Magnavox players on an endcap with a big sign stating "$29.98." The also have the four-sided HD DVD/Blu-ray display.

Target . . #4?
Target went Bluray only?

Target went Bluray only?

Nope.... just another result of hydraganda.

Target went Bluray only?

No you asked what Giant retailer. That I believe that is Target's position behind Wal-Mart, Home Depot and someone else.

And we all know they did not go BD only.

No you asked what Giant retailer. That I believe that is Target's position behind Wal-Mart, Home Depot and someone else.

And we all know they did not go BD only.
Seems like it's time for you to reread my post. :p

Careful, guys. Let's not bicker. That gets threads removed.

You mean $29 players like these?

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4810670

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5824921

Actually, the Magnavox player is $29.98. Technically I guess that's above $29. ;)

Thank you for making the point that HD players and media will decrease in cost even if there is only one format!

Seems like it's time for you to reread my post. :p

My Bad - you are correct. I did not read it as sarcasm - which it was.

Thank you for making the point that HD players and media will decrease in cost even if there is only one format!

And thank you for missing the point that all these different CE's aren't making a hill of impact in pricing for Blu-ray.

And let's be fair here, how long has DVD been out before these $29 players were around.

Oh, and last point. VHS has always been the competitor to DVD. And it lasted for a long time past DVD's launch. So it's not like DVD has had a free ride either.

And yet, more people are buying the Blu-ray version. I guess they just don't care no matter how much you talk about it.

Here's another scenario:

F: Hey, Bill, wanna watch an HD movie?

B: Sure, Fred. What do you have?

F: All the Pirates movies, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Casino Royale, Spider-Man 3, Cars, Evil Dead II, the original Dawn/Day of the Dead, Apocalypto, Donnie Brasco, Layer Cake, The Usual Suspects. A bunch. What about you?

B: Um...Evan Almighty and Timecop?

I just say, "come on over. WE can watch The Matrix, Batman Begins, or The Big Lebowski on HDDVD or Rocky Balboa, The Lake House, or Are We Done Yet on BD". :p

Buying the media must be cheap now-a-days. I wonder how much each article costs for Sony?

Buying the media must be cheap now-a-days. I wonder how much each article costs for Sony?If they had bought this I doubt it would have said:
But in Europe, the game is much different, as HD-DVD stand-alone players have outsold Blu-ray three-to-one according to Reuters.when that was HD DVD's misdirection to try to make it look like they are doing better than Blu-ray in Europe while ignoring how disc sales are going.

--Darin

And thank you for missing the point that all these different CE's aren't making a hill of impact in pricing for Blu-ray.Maybe in Bizarro World, but here in the real world, they actually have. It's HD DVD that's been slow to fall, because there's only Toshiba.

Launch Blu-ray min MSRP: $1000
Current Blu-ray min MSRP: $500
Launch HD DVD min MSRP: $500
Current HD DVD min MSRp: $300

Maybe in Bizarro World, but here in the real world, they actually have. It's HD DVD that's been slow to fall, because there's only Toshiba.

Launch Blu-ray min MSRP: $1000
Current Blu-ray min MSRP: $500
Launch HD DVD min MSRP: $500
Current HD DVD min MSRp: $300

Do not forget that the S300 was announced at $599 months before launch. It was the pressure of Toshiba's pricing that caused Sony to drop the price before it was even launched by $100.

This caused Samsung to lower their price to $499 and Panasonic lowered theirs to $599 but included the movies in the box deal to even out the price. All to compete with Sony. Even though their players have more features.

A simple summation to all the latest news. HD DVD is simply a punching bad to Blu Ray's marketing team. Giant retailer after giant retailer is going Blu Only. Forcing an end is the best for all consumers.


Big business forcing an end to a superior format is not good for any of us consumers.

"But the good news is, perhaps we are all lucky Blu-ray is strong-arming the industry from behind the scenes. At least it will put an end to this battle and we can all pick up a Blu-ray player knowing it won't be obsolete in six months."

What a joke, they are all obsolete now. You don't have to wait anytime for that to happen!

"But the good news is, perhaps we are all lucky Blu-ray is strong-arming the industry from behind the scenes. At least it will put an end to this battle and we can all pick up a Blu-ray player knowing it won't be obsolete in six months."

What a joke, they are all obsolete now. You don't have to wait anytime for that to happen!

This remains to be seen. The jury is still out on this obsolete issue. I am waiting for info from Kevin (paidgeek) to see if 3 of the 1st gen players can be firmware upgraded to profile 1.1. They already have the correct SoC. Now it's just a question of having enough "persistant" storage.

All Samsungs, including the newly announced ones will not be though. The Pioneer, Sony and Panasonic are the ones in question. Phillips - no info at all.

And thank you for missing the point that all these different CE's aren't making a hill of impact in pricing for Blu-ray.

And let's be fair here, how long has DVD been out before these $29 players were around.

Oh, and last point. VHS has always been the competitor to DVD. And it lasted for a long time past DVD's launch. So it's not like DVD has had a free ride either.

So DVD is competing with HDM and vice versa. I agree that prices are lower because of the format struggle but it is getting near tapped out and I want to see adoption by the bystanders so we get some volume. Confidence in a format is a factor in expenditures, my own especially... :D

Besides, the winning HDM format will have DVD's $29.98 players to compete with.

The alternative is both formats are adopted and used in multi format players. Thus ending the current competition as well but with players with added complexity and expense.

Big business forcing an end to a superior format is not good for any of us consumers.Why should retailers have to bear the brunt of this war? They have to devote extra shelf space and explain to their customers why there is more than one format. Microsoft made 3 billion in profit the last quarter, they can afford to lose this one. Meanwhile, retailers are laying off employees. A single format is good for consumers and good for retailers.

Oh, and BD is the superior format, so it's win win.

This remains to be seen. The jury is still out on this obsolete issue. I am waiting for info from Kevin (paidgeek) to see if 3 of the 1st gen players can be firmware upgraded to profile 1.1. They already have the correct SoC. Now it's just a question of having enough "persistant" storage.

All Samsungs, including the newly announced ones will not be though. The Pioneer, Sony and Panasonic are the ones in question. Phillips - no info at all.

None of those companies will identify which features work and which don't work come Oct 31. They don't do it now! I'm also not convinced the deadline will stand. To many players being released soon that don't comply.

Why would they have the correct amount of persistant storage if it wasn't required? I have my doubts that they do. Of course this is just a guess.

The irony is in this quote referring to the 360 add on--"Consumers, Ma and Pa, will want a stand-alone player, not a gaming console." Almost of the credit for Blu-ray winning is going to the PS3. I agree that the war won't be decided by a gaming console, but by who gets players out below $100 sooner. My guess at this point is the general public will prefer the less expensive HD DVD players and the BDA knows this as well and is doing everything they can to kill HD DVD before that happens. Toshiba really does need to start convincing the general public though that HD DVD is not going away no matter what Sony and the BDA say. Toshiba definitely needs to spend their profits fighting the BDA propaganda with better propaganda of their own and buying end caps everywhere that the BDA buys endcaps.

I guess Blu Ray finally realized the fake 'Blu Ray has won' press releases don't work.

Now they are releasing 'The end of HD DVD' articles instead.

HD DVD needs to take the gloves off, drop prices like hell, and 'smear campain' Blu Ray back to the Beta/UDM/Minidisc/Memorystick cess pool it came from.

Why should retailers have to bear the brunt of this war? They have to devote extra shelf space and explain to their customers why there is more than one format. Microsoft made 3 billion in profit the last quarter, they can afford to lose this one. Meanwhile, retailers are laying off employees. A single format is good for consumers and good for retailers.

Oh, and BD is the superior format, so it's win win.
Would you have felt that way if DViX won and all of your movies were owned by the studios and not by you?

"But the good news is, perhaps we are all lucky Blu-ray is strong-arming the industry from behind the scenes. At least it will put an end to this battle and we can all pick up a Blu-ray player knowing it won't be obsolete in six months."

What a joke, they are all obsolete now. You don't have to wait anytime for that to happen!

Both of my blu-ray players are working great. Sony supports its formats well enough that I have zero concern about being able to use my blu-ray players or discs. I could not say the same for some other formats.

Both of my blu-ray players are working great. Sony supports its formats well enough that I have zero concern about being able to use my blu-ray players or discs. I could not say the same for some other formats.


Why is that? Both Sony and Toshiba do a good job with frequent updates for their players. Well at least Sony does for the PS3, which I own and am very glad that they do.

Other formats? Are there more than two now?

None of those companies will identify which features work and which don't work come Oct 31. They don't do it now! I'm also not convinced the deadline will stand. To many players being released soon that don't comply.

Why would they have the correct amount of persistant storage if it wasn't required? I have my doubts that they do. Of course this is just a guess.

If you know which SoC a company is using (there are 2 to choose from) then you will know if at least the SoC is in place to meet Profile 1.1 One of the SoC's is 1.0, the other is 1.1. The 1.0 SoC doesn't do DTS-MA, nor any 7.1 audio formats. The 1.1 does DTS-MA and all 7.1 formats.

When was Profile 1.1 decided? Was it last year or earlier? It was to my understanding it was previous to 2006. The big hold up was not the hardware. It was BD-J. If Pioneer and Panasonic wanted their 1st gen players to eventually be Profile 1.1 compliant - they would have bought the correct SoC (which they did)and put in the correct amount of persistant storage(256MB vs. 64MB - unknown) - then wait for BD-J to be finished - then a firmware upgrade and presto - 1.1 compliant.

Do a search for these SoC's - there are PDF's on them - very easy to read and understand:

SIGMA 8634 (profile 1.1 and 2.0)

Broadcom 7440 (profile 1.0 and 2.0)

The irony is in this quote referring to the 360 add on--"Consumers, Ma and Pa, will want a stand-alone player, not a gaming console." Almost of the credit for Blu-ray winning is going to the PS3.Yeah, I know. I had to laugh at that part. Sadly the irony is lost on all but the most astute readers.

Its so true, when HD-DVD are $99 and PS3s are $399, lets see what the situation looks like.

If you know which SoC a company is using (there are 2 to choose from) then you will know if at least the SoC is in place to meet Profile 1.1 One of the SoC's is 1.0, the other is 1.1. The 1.0 SoC doesn't do DTS-MA, nor any 7.1 audio formats. The 1.1 does DTS-MA and all 7.1 formats.

When was Profile 1.1 decided? Was it last year or earlier? It was to my understanding it was previous to 2006. The big hold up was not the hardware. It was BD-J. If Pioneer and Panasonic wanted their 1st gen players to eventually be Profile 1.1 compliant - they would have bought the correct SoC (which they did)and put in the correct amount of persistant storage(256MB vs. 64MB - unknown) - then wait for BD-J to be finished - then a firmware upgrade and presto - 1.1 compliant.

Do a search for these SoC's - there are PDF's on them - very easy to read and understand:

SIGMA 8634 (profile 1.1 and 2.0)


Broadcom 7440 (profile 1.0 and 2.0)

Thanks, I will take a look at them. But, how could they know what the standard would be if it wasn't completed yet? I'm talking about the memory.

The irony is in this quote referring to the 360 add on--"Consumers, Ma and Pa, will want a stand-alone player, not a gaming console." Almost of the credit for Blu-ray winning is going to the PS3. I agree that the war won't be decided by a gaming console, but by who gets players out below $100 sooner. My guess at this point is the general public will prefer the less expensive HD DVD players and the BDA knows this as well and is doing everything they can to kill HD DVD before that happens. Toshiba really does need to start convincing the general public though that HD DVD is not going away no matter what Sony and the BDA say. Toshiba definitely needs to spend their profits fighting the BDA propaganda with better propaganda of their own and buying end caps everywhere that the BDA buys endcaps.
I hope quality and price win. Tosh has put their resources there instead of BS advertising, hydras and phony specs.

Thanks, I will take a look at them. But, how could they know what the standard would be if it wasn't completed yet? I'm talking about the memory.

Here - All setup for you and anyone else who is interested in this. The SoC's are used in HD DVD and BD players:

Link to the Sigma SMP8634 - Says profile 1.1 and 2.0

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/public/P...ray8634_br.pdf

Broadcom 7440 - Says profile 1.0 and 2.0

http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7440-PB100-R.pdf


Source for which players have this chip (BD Only):

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/public/C...es/070108b.pdf

Profiles 1.0 and 1.1 from Wiki:

Profiles

The BD-ROM specification defines four profiles of Blu-ray players. All video-based profiles are required to have a full implementation of BD-J.


1.0

This is the basic profile that all current Blu-ray players (as of April 2007) are based on. Players based on this profile are only required to have 64 KB of application data area storage, which is typically used for bookmarks and other preference storage. Most players have more than the minimum required 64 KB.After October 31, 2007, this profile will be superseded by profile 1.1 as the new minimum profile.


1.1 (mandatory November 2007)

What is typically referred to as "Profile 1.1" (but is more formally known as "Final Standard Profile") adds a secondary video decoder (typically used for picture in picture), secondary audio (typically used for interactive audio and commentary) and capability of supporting a minimum of 256 MB of local storage (for storing audio/video and title updates). Compliance with this profile will be mandatory for player models introduced to the market after October 31, 2007,[1] but existing products will be unaffected. As of July 24, 2007, only the Denon DVD-3800BDCI and DVD-2500BTCI have been announced as supporting this feature.

Some profile 1.0 players may be upgradeable via firmware update to profile 1.1 if they have the appropriate hardware, but no manufacturer has announced any such upgrade. When software authored with interactive features dependent on Profile 1.1 hardware capabilities are played on profile 1.0 players some features may not be available or may offer limited capability. Profile 1.0 players will still be able to play the main feature of the disc, however.

Lee - can you give us a summary of Profile 2?

Ignore - I can look in Wiki

2.0 (BD-Live)
Profile 2, also known as BD-Live, adds network connectivity to the list of mandatory functions and increases mandatory local storage capability to 1 GB. No players have been announced as compatible with this profile. Players of earlier profiles will still be able to play the main feature of the disc, however.

I can't believe this thread is still open. A guy who posted THIS

"Yea really there should be no bickering... Blu Ray is winning. What is there to argue over? I dont get it. If you can show one area where HD DVD is winning, then we have something to argue over. But you cant do that... well unless you say something like "interactivity" but I mean a REAL win not a theoretical win that is not backed up by sales data."

in Mark's "stop the bickering" thread is allowed to not only remain here, but start yet another DEATH OF HD DVD thread in the bi-format area. And my post expressing displeasure with it, and pointing out the simple and indisputable facts that (1) this is a duplicate Target thread, and (2) it was started with an agenda, is deleted.

If this deserves deletion, then please don't stop with the post. I would respectfully request that my account be deleted along with it. Nothing personal against anyone, members or mods. I understand that freedom of speech does not apply here. But when an agenda is forced and the propagators are shielded, it is not a place where I will fit in.

Didn't this replace a Target thread that was here already?

in Mark's "stop the bickering" thread is allowed to not only remain here, but start yet another DEATH OF HD DVD thread in the bi-format area. And my post expressing displeasure with it, and pointing out the simple and indisputable facts that (1) this is a duplicate Target thread, and (2) it was started with an agenda, is deleted.


I guess a more appropriate thread title would be:

"The beginning of the end for neutrality on AVS..."

I guess a more appropriate thread title would be:

"The beginning of the end for neutrality on AVS..."
I don't understand this comment. AVS has never really been neutral in the sense of being even-handed to both formats in thread content.

The moderation team seems pretty scrupulously neutral with respect to rules enforcement, but what you seem to be taking issue with is a shift in content focus to favor Blu-ray over HD DVD.

I started reading AVS back in January of this year, and back then this forum was predominantly pro-HD DVD as far as the membership went. Now that Blu-ray has something of an upper hand, there seems to be a more even mix of posters, as a number of people have crossed the picket lines, and Blu-ray seems to have caught up in the form of new owners.

It's obvious this change has caused some friction; some of the older HD DVD supporters are reacting to the change in environment negatively since the forum content isn't as congenial as what they'd been reading for the majority of 2006. In addition, the continuing news of HD DVD's continued inability to catch up in software sales and steady erosion of the Since Inception figures seem to have caused more than a few posters some undue stress.

Some of the Blu-ray supporters, on the other hand, after being kicked around for many months, seem hell bent on rubbing Blu-ray's comeback in the faces of those who were abusing them previously. A somewhat natural, if not terribly mature, reaction.

Both groups seem to be getting worse lately, and the level of hostility has climbed as they take their frustrations out on each other. I've seeing more and more locked and deleted threads, and there seems to be no abatement in sight.

I was not aware Target released any such statement as this article mentions. Only Sony released a PR that now seems had more hot air than truth....Sony is going by a simple game plan. Repeat a lie long enough and people will believe it. Use 2nd and 3rd tier journals and editors to make your point....anyone remember phase hydra?

To condome unethical behavior is not cool in my books. But it's up to you what works for you....I never much liked the school yard bully. Not then, and not now. I never sucked up to the bully either....some do.
There's sucking up and then there's betting on.

It looks like Sony has learned is marketing lessons at last. W"ife chose an inferior format (VHS) over Beta. Now it seems we may be choosing an inferior format once again (Blu-ray) over HD DVD. Although the Target exclusivity news may or may not be correct (http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/28/false-alarm-targets-not-giving-up-on-hd-dvd/) I feel that BR will win this war.

A note to everyone, please don't flame me if you disagree and believe BR to be a better format or if you think HD DVD will win this war. These are my opinions and of course YMMV. I love my HD DVD and will keep my player and discs for many years to come but I fear I will have a need to purchase at BR player in the near future.
No problem. But I am willing to have polite discussion about your position on the "inferior format." What is your rationale for that?

Why should retailers have to bear the brunt of this war? They have to devote extra shelf space and explain to their customers why there is more than one format. Microsoft made 3 billion in profit the last quarter, they can afford to lose this one. Meanwhile, retailers are laying off employees. A single format is good for consumers and good for retailers.


Retailers already carry widescreen and fullscreen versions of many movies.

I did not know that HDMs with 1% of sales and dependent on HDTVs with a penetration of 30% of US homes could save the whole consumer electronics industry. :rolleyes:

A single format would have left us with with either 720p or MPEG2 encodes and player prices still around $1K. How that would have been good for us the consumer I don't know?

Thank you for making the point that HD players and media will decrease in cost even if there is only one format!
If I may say so, that was Beautifully done, Thumperll :D

(if I may add, I saw the irony and read forward anticipating the hook line and sinker... bravo. I have so much to learn)

I am glad I don't care about the format war. Anyone who asks when is the time to buy, I say right now and for the least expensive unit.

In my case, I just picked up the 360 add on for $149 since I already have a 360. If you are like me, any electronic anything I buy has a shelf life of about 2 years... I am not going to deprive myself from HD media movies for an unknown period of time for a savings of $149. Even if HD DVD wins... In a year or two; the add on will find it's way to some second TV or HTPC experiment while I buy another one that is better and probably cheaper.

I think it was bad enough that HD-DVD burners are almost non-existant for enthusiasts while Blu-ray burners are already available from several vendors.

Universal exclusivity and HDI cannot save the format.

PS. Standalone Bl-ray recorders will drive down the recording media prices which (besides the hardware options) was another reason why VHS won.

HD DVD apparently needs to do a better job educating consumers that you can burn HD DVD with a regular DVD burner right now.

Man, you guys really are living in your own little world. None of the features you guys argue about mean squat to average consumers.

Take a look at the Beta versus VHS war. Beta lost even though it as superior as a format for both recording and playback. Sony lost that war because they were not willing to license to partners and it looks like they learned their lesson this time around.

Sony has licensed Blu-ray to a number of hardware partners while Toshiba is trying to monopolize the standalone market for itself initially. The delay of releasing third-party hardware is really hurting adoption among regular consumers.

If we start seeing standalone Blu-ray recorders on the market from various companies within a year, it will be game over for HD-DVD by 2009. The introduction of those Blu-ray writing cameras is a prelude to this happening IMO.

I believe that the "R" in VCR and DVD recorders (computer and standalone) are what pushed people towards those technologies and to replace their 8mm cameras with DV camcorders. I believe Blu-ray recorders will drive adoption of HD camcorders and Blu-ray players.

My prediction is that consumer produced content will have a greater effect on adoption than many of you believe. In addition, I would venture a guess that many of you have not even considered its potential impact.

I think it was bad enough that HD-DVD burners are almost non-existant for enthusiasts while Blu-ray burners are already available from several vendors.

Universal exclusivity and HDI cannot save the format.

PS. Standalone Bl-ray recorders will drive down the recording media prices which (besides the hardware options) was another reason why VHS won.

Does the knowledge that the newest Sony and Samsung players won't play recordable BD discs effect your opinion any? What about the info from a Roxio employee (the make BD and HD DVD authoring software), that in the newar future, Sony will be releasing firmware updates that at least partially disable BD-R playback capabilities.

If you feel that consumer produced content is really a major factor, then doesn't HD DVD appear to be the better choice, since you can author to standard DVD for shorter pieces, to HD DVD-R, and that all HD DVD player made to date will playback all HD DVD authored media (be it on red or blue laser). Seems like HD DVD is leading in the very area you claim will be a signifigant factor for Blu-ray.

Yawn - article by a fan-person. He uses the word "spin" twice in one sentence to describe Universal. And he also gets the Target "exclusivity" thing wrong, even tho it has been corrected already.

I'm glad pricing alone isn't winning this battle. So far quality and content has the significant lead (using Neilsen stats). The competition however has been quite helpful for consumers on both sides.

HD DVD apparently needs to do a better job educating consumers that you can burn HD DVD with a regular DVD burner right now.

Had not heard this, can you point me in the right direction?

HD DVD apparently needs to do a better job educating consumers that you can burn HD DVD with a regular DVD burner right now.

Very True.

On a funny note, dude Tarpon, everytime I see your name, I have to do a double take, because It looks very close to TAMPON :p

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/211486/The_Beginning_of_the_End_for_HD_DVD_



Another format war article that seems to see the writing on the wall. Nice to see. The third from the last paragraph couldnt be more true.


Ho-hum.

A simple summation to all the latest news. HD DVD is simply a punching bag to Blu Ray's marketing team. Giant retailer after giant retailer is going Blu Only. Forcing an end is the best for all consumers.

First of all, forcing people into buying one format via strong-armed tactics is never best for the consumer! Sounds like some sort of "Big Brother" BS -- the BDA knows what's best for us! I think not. :rolleyes:

Secondly, wasn't it you, Jeff, that dismissed earlier reports of the cheap Chinese HD-DVD players coming to Wal-Mart? You made the claim that HD shoppers don't frequent Wal-Mart, and that their presence in these stores would be immaterial. Of course, Wal-Mart is the #1 retailer in the country, including sales of electronics, so that claim was pretty silly. So how, exactly, is this Target scenario such a big deal if the retailer that dwarfs Target nearly three-fold didn't matter? Do you really think a $500 HD player in 1,500 Target stores carries more weight than a sub-$300 HD player in 4,000 Wal-Marts / Sam's Clubs?

And let's get the facts straight here. Target has NOT gone Blu-Ray exclusive -- they have simply been PAID by Sony (what else is new) to sell their $500 player instore. In fact, stand-alone players have been dominated by the HD-DVD format all along, so for a retailer to ignore the better selling, less expensive player is idiotic. (Circuit City tried this approach in 2006 but quickly jumped on board with HD-DVD in early 2007 when it became obvious that the format was selling well.) Again, Sony has used its $ to buy an advantage, followed by the typical Sony press release spinning the facts to dupe the consumers into believing that HD-DVD is dead (once again).

Target continues to sell HD software and the XBox HD add-on. Truth be told, their HD presence for both formats has been pathetic since day 1! My local Targets have fewer than a dozen titles for either format -- all newer releases or major catalog titles. Nobody in their right mind would ever go to a Target looking for these formats because their inventory is non-existent.

If these facts weren't plain enough, here's something else to consider. What retailer would actually publish a press release stating a new exclusive commitment to one of the 2 formats that less than 1% of the population gives a rat's a** about? Just like the Blockbuster "announcement", this is simply another example of Sony attempting to BUY public opinion. It's a shame they won't run out of money anytime soon, so the BS will just keep 'a comin!

And let's get the facts straight here. Target has NOT gone Blu-Ray exclusive -- they have simply been PAID by Sony (what else is new) to sell their $500 player instore. In fact, stand-alone players have been dominated by the HD-DVD format all along, so for a retailer to ignore the better selling, less expensive player is idiotic. Again, Sony has used its $ to buy an advantage, followed by the typical Sony press release spinning the facts to dupe the consumers into believing that HD-DVD is dead (once again).

How many times has HD DVD died again? Is it 23 or 33 according to Sony?

Coming soon to a BD player near you "Rise of the HD DVD dead".
It's a real horror for Sony. My favorite quote is when head on Sony USA tries to kill the HD DVD player with the lawnmower saying "Just stay dead HD DVD". :D

Circuit City did sale HD-DVD players in 2006. Target and Costco not offering HD-DVD stand alone players online now is something new.

Circuit City did sale HD-DVD players in 2006. Target and Costco not offering HD-DVD stand alone players online now is something new.

B&M CC stores didn't start selling HD-DVD players until the debut of the A2. They carried the software but had zero first-generation players.

In fact, everytime I frequented a CC in 2006 they made the claim that HD-DVD was already dead! Now I enter their stores and they have King Kong & the HD-DVD demo disc running on most of their HD sets. Quite a turn-around for a dead format. :rolleyes:

HD DVD sure looks dead to me.

THE NEW A35

* 1080p/24 frames per second
* CE-Link" (HDMI-CEC)
* Support for Deep Color
* 5.1 channel analog output and High Bit Rate Audio (up to 7.1 channel)

All for only $499 MSRP

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070806/tos2_1.jpg

What a beauty!

Less expensive than a bottle of Domaine Leroy Richebourg.

Originally Posted by aristotles

When is it coming to North America? 2008? 2009?

My understanding is October 2007.

Wonder if it will support PIP?

Originally Posted by aristotles

Google confirms it.
HD DVD is dead

HD DVD is dying



Well I guess I might as well enjoy it while I can then. Hope it does not die before October though.

I sure would like to see the A35 before HD DVD dies completely.

Thanks for the heads up.

Nice spin. Apparently, it is true that they have been disabling BDMV support via firmware locks however BDAV (no menus) is still playable on all Blu-ray players IIRC. There would be no need to disable BDAV since it is not something you could use to pirate anything without losing 5.1 sound and menus.

I could burn DVD content to a CD-R if I wanted but it would be no substitute for a DVD burner. Would you have suggested that CD-R was leading the way?
:rolleyes:
The fact remains that HD-DVD burners are not available for any purpose be it for video or data archival while I can go to a store right now and pick up an external Blu-ray burner for my laptop to burn BDAV or data disks for archival and backup.

I would also like to note that I can encode video as AVC, burn it on DVD-R and play it back on a Blu-ray player.

No you are the one spinning. You can't play BDAV on the latest Sony or Samsung players either because they won't play ANY writable media, only BD ROM's. So the two newest players to market don't play any recordable media, be it encoded in BDAV of BDMV.

Blu-ray has had this for a while.

Blu-ray has had this for a while.

When is it coming to North America? 2008? 2009?

It is coming to North America in 2007. Trying to push an agenda much?

Blu-ray has had this for a while.


at double the price of an HD DVD player, it better be!

THE NEW A35


will have Reon chip? or should I get a 2nd XA2 for that?

Originally Posted by David Susilo

will have Reon chip? or should I get a 2nd XA2 for that?

Originally Posted by Kosty

The HD XA2 may have the REON which may give it still better upconversion and that 2nd set of dispaly controls, but the HD A35 will probably (my guess) have it too as the actual REON processor cost is not that much anymore.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11235360#post11235360

I don't think anyone knows yet. Very good question.

Proof?

here you go:

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/officially-official/samsung-finally-announces-its-bd+up5000-blu+ray-hd-dvd-hybrid-player-plus-ht+bd2-blu+ray-home-theater-282313.php

Only three SAL's BD players support BD R and R/E: Pioneer 94HD, Sony S1 with firmware upgrade and the Panasonic 10/10A All others are BD-ROM only. (Denon- unknown)

EDITED for correction

Google confirms it. ;)
HD DVD is dead (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=en-us&q=%22HD+DVD+is+dead%22&btnG=Search)

HD DVD is dying (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=en-us&q=%22HD+DVD+is+dying%22&btnG=Search)

Blu-ray is dead and Blu-ray is dying comes up with lots of links too. :mad:

A simple summation to all the latest news. HD DVD is simply a punching bad to Blu Ray's marketing team. Giant retailer after giant retailer is going Blu Only. Forcing an end is the best for all consumers.

When has 0 competition ever led to good things for consumers? NEVER.

Blu-ray is dead and Blu-ray is dying comes up with lots of links too. :mad:
fantasy sites?

Only three SAL's BD players support BD R and R/E: Pioneer 94HD, Sony S1 with firmware upgrade and the Panasonic 10/10A All others are BD-ROM only. (Denon- unknown)

EDITED for correction
Lee,

You forgot Playstation 3.

BTW, Liar Liar is great movie. :D

Blu-ray has had this for a while.

Blu-ray has had this for a while.

When is it coming to North America? 2008? 2009?ANd they still cant sell but a fraction of their standalones compared to Toshiba. Targets' announcement is the most worthless thing Ive read. It doesnt mean anything more than they are going to sell PS3's. I can't imagine anyone buying either standalones from Target anyway, or Walmart for that matter.

When has 0 competition ever led to good things for consumers? NEVER.
metalsaber,

You forgot about competition within the BDA, between Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic, Samsung, LG. Or may be they all the same company?

Lee,

You forgot Playstation 3.

BTW, Liar Liar is great movie. :D

Great Movie! Funny as heck. My favorite . . . Yellow Submarine :D

ANd they still cant sell but a fraction of their standalones compared to Toshiba. Targets' announcement is the most worthless thing Ive read. It doesnt mean anything more than they are going to sell PS3's. I can't imagine anyone buying either standalones from Target anyway, or Walmart for that matter.
I simply adore the way people will just pooh-pooh inconvenient truths.

"Blockbuster is dying anyway, who cares that they still represent about 3/4ths of the rental market in the USA?"

"People will definitely notice 20GB more space on a disc and this will affect their choice of player"

"No one buys anything at Target despite them being the 5th largest retailer in the USA."

"Universal is definitely going neutral because they're releasing a ton of titles on HD DVD."

What do these four statements have in common with each other? :)

I'm not saying that Target will sell boatloads of standalone players, but I think it's a fair statement to say that if Toshiba were the one there with an HD DVD endcap, the HD DVD masses would be up in arms about how much it will mean for hardware sales.

"It is what it is" has become my favorite phrase around here. As much as anyone would like to deny it, having endcaps in a major retailer for one side and not the other is going to give it more visibility, and yes, potentially more sales. HD DVD cannot sell hardware in a store that it isn't present in; given the strategy that Toshiba has latched onto regarding hardware dominance, this is not a good thing for their prospects no matter how few or many Target manages to sell over the holidays.

"Blu-ray is dying" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=%22Blu-ray+is+dying%22&btnG=Search) give me only 5 hits compare to 2,530 for HD DVD.
Bluray is Dead (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=en-us&q=%22Blu+Ray+is+dead%22&btnG=Search) has 7,090 hits! :D

Web Results 1 - 10 of about 7,090 for "Blu Ray is dead". (0.30 seconds)

Bluray is Dead (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=en-us&q=%22Blu+Ray+is+dead%22&btnG=Search) has 7,090 hits! :D


I got over 2 millon hits (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=en-us&q=blu+ray+is+dead%22&btnG=Search) :eek:


And then alomst 570,000 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=en-us&q=blu+ray+is+dying%22&btnG=Search)


I simply replaced HD DVD with blu ray


Any more stats to challenge? :o

When has 0 competition ever led to good things for consumers? NEVER.

Well, fortunately if Blu-Ray is the only format, there will still be plenty of competition within the format, so I fail to see the relevance of your question. Otherwise, if you still call that 0 competition...my answer would then be, DVD.

I got over 2 millon hits (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=en-us&q=blu+ray+is+dead%22&btnG=Search) :eek:


And then alomst 570,000 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=en-us&q=blu+ray+is+dying%22&btnG=Search)


I simply replaced HD DVD with blu ray


Any more stats to challenge? :o

I can play:
hd dvd is the devil"

yee haaaa over 2 million. :eek: :)


In case people didn't catch on to hd n00b's slight of hand:


this:
blu ray is dying"

gives different results than:
"blu ray is dying"

And if you remove the quotation marks, it still states 2.7M...

So?

Bluray is Dead (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=en-us&q=%22Blu+Ray+is+dead%22&btnG=Search) has 7,090 hits! :D


So now we have a 12 year old type of argument going on here... Gee Wiz....

So now we have a 12 year old type of argument going on here... Gee Wiz....

Like you're above it. :rolleyes:

And if you remove the quotation marks, it still states 2.7M...

So?

I rest my case ;)

I rest my case ;)

Hello pot, Hello kettle.

At the very least I can say that I don't go around purposely posting antagonistic comments in the opposing formats section daily. You are the very last person to question anyones maturity.

Oh less I forget the obligatory " ;) "

metalsaber,

You forgot about competition within the BDA, between Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic, Samsung, LG. Or may be they all the same company?

Yeah right..... its like saying Chevy, Pontiac, and Buick compete with one another. They do, but not in the sense of REAL competition which is what consumers need.

The BDA is just SONY. Everyone knows this and listing all of the lapdog companies that live in fear of Sony isnt going to change the perception that Blu ray is really Sony-ray.

Besides....where are the cheaper players then? Why hasnt Samsludge or Sharp or whoever released a $300 dollar player that is fully featured? Where are the cheaper players? You think Emperor Sony is gonna allow that? They control the pricing, plain and simple.

Good Grief..... :rolleyes:

I simply adore the way people will just pooh-pooh inconvenient truths.

"It is what it is" has become my favorite phrase around here. As much as anyone would like to deny it, having endcaps in a major retailer for one side and not the other is going to give it more visibility, and yes, potentially more sales. HD DVD cannot sell hardware in a store that it isn't present in; given the strategy that Toshiba has latched onto regarding hardware dominance, this is not a good thing for their prospects no matter how few or many Target manages to sell over the holidays.
Well there is no more often ignored inconvenient truth around here than the fact that a 2:1 software lead with a 5.27:1 hardware lead shows that the PS3 is not a viable longterm market for HDM (or more accurately that standalones sell media).

Target? It's a PR boon, but one must wonder if the $250 players would be a better fit than the $450 BD players - seems to match better with the average Target customer. But it's irrelevant, Sony bought the caps.

I think not bland, if there was no war at all, BR or HD-DVD players would be in the thousand dollar range. Competition is good for the consumer not bad.


Rob

It's not good for the folks likely about to be stuck with a 2-3 thousand dollar bad investment. They might not care now, but they will when their player fails.

It's not good for the folks likely about to be stuck with a 2-3 thousand dollar bad investment. They might not care now, but they will when their player fails.
You can still buy new: a record player, a VCR, a laserdisc player, a minidisc player, an SACD/DVD-Audio player, and yes, even a Betamax player. About the only thing I can't find new hardware for is 8 track.

Well I'm glad there are threads like this to keep some people busy while the Neilsen thread is closed.

You can still buy new: a record player, a VCR, a laserdisc player, a minidisc player, an SACD/DVD-Audio player, and yes, even a Betamax player. About the only thing I can't find new hardware for is 8 track.

Link to NEW laserdisc players and NEW Betamax VCRs?

A simple summation to all the latest news. HD DVD is simply a punching bad to Blu Ray's marketing team. Giant retailer after giant retailer is going Blu Only. Forcing an end is the best for all consumers.

Personally I think the consumer having the choice is the best thing for consumers.

I don't want any company or monopoly forcing or telling me what I have to buy. If everyone released on both then everything would be available on both and both formats would force innovation and reasonable pricing on each other through normal competition.

Your statement is a pure I want BR to win statement. I just can't see how either winning outright helps us consumers. It's not like the studios are holding back releases (other than Fox and maybe Disney and since they are BR only then it sure isn't because they are neutral).

Adoption by the public is slowed because there is a studio split on both sides NOT because there are two formats. All studios release on both formats and then it would be safe for everyone to buy whichever has the features, price or favorite brand and then they can't go wrong.

Please feel free to provide your arguments as a consumer as to why YOU shouldn't have the right to CHOOSE. Tell us why you think it is in your best interest to have huge multinational companies decide for you what it is that you want and like or why it's in your best interest when they conspire to remove choice and restrict competition.

Cheers,

Richard.

It's not good for the folks likely about to be stuck with a 2-3 thousand dollar bad investment. They might not care now, but they will when their player fails.

Welcome to the risks associated with being an early adopter of a format. I could name countless products that were obselete or offset by the competition before they even made it off the production line, and many members of this forum probably invested in these formats and feel the same way. If you get too caught up worrying about the value depreciation of a piece of HT gear because of competition, you're in the wrong hobby.

Well I'm glad there are threads like this to keep some people busy while the Neilsen thread is closed.

:)

Both of my blu-ray players are working great. Sony supports its formats well enough that I have zero concern about being able to use my blu-ray players or discs. I could not say the same for some other formats.

Really they do? In a thread on this forum discussing a particular AV processor, it was mentioned the unit has some HDMI handshaking issues with both the Sony's and Pioneer BR players. This AV CE is particularly good at going the extra mile in try and ensure that their stuff works with everything and that owners get the VERY BEST experience.

So they contacted Sony and Pioneer to discuss the issues. Pioneer requested a unit for testing which was provided and Pioneer is know troubleshooting the problem on their end. Sony basically told them to buzz off. This was directly posted from the head of Tech Support at the AV CE in response to the Sony BR player owners asking for an update on the status.

Must be reassuring to have that kind of support behind you. Sony, who is one of the originators of the HDMI spec can't even get it right in their own equipment and then shoots down requests from other CE's to help get there stuff working for their customers. Nice.

And NO I will not provide a link and bring this mess over there. No way, no how never. If you want to hunt for it then be my guest. I have never lied here and this format war isn't worth it in any case.

Cheers,

Richard

Personally I think the consumer having the choice is the best thing for consumers.

I don't want any company or monopoly forcing or telling me what I have to buy. If everyone released on both then everything would be available on both and both formats would force innovation and reasonable pricing on each other through normal competition.

This is an honest question, not a flame or a smartass reply :)

How is one HiDef format, for lack of a better word, "winning" and being the ONLY format, any different from SD DVDs? Seems like DVD prices have constantly fallen without a competing format.

This is an honest question, not a flame or a smartass reply :)

How is one HiDef format, for lack of a better word, "winning" and being the ONLY format, any different from SD DVDs? Seems like DVD prices have constantly fallen without a competing format.

DVD pricing didn't start significantly falling until its 4th year or so. HD DVD/BD are still in their 1st year (well, just entering their 2nd year) and their price drops have been more significant than DVD's first 4 years.

This is an honest question, not a flame or a smartass reply :)

How is one HiDef format, for lack of a better word, "winning" and being the ONLY format, any different from SD DVDs? Seems like DVD prices have constantly fallen without a competing format.

Nothing wrong with the question at all. There is nothing wrong. In the case of Beta Vs. VHS I think we all had the choice for a long time with pretty much all movies on both formats (maybe there were some exceptions, I don't know 100%) and slowly over time VHS began to dominate to the point with it was the winner.

DVD could have had competition. Heck a few tried with DIVX for a bit, but no one was interested so DVD won obviously and I agree there was little or no real competition for it other than the already existing VHS. Who else can remember the slow painful increases in DVD's availability at your local BB (Well at least it seemed slow and painful hahaa).

Now with HD the same thing goes. It is certainly a possibility that one or the other would fade to the back burner even if all studios supported both formats, but at least that would be a natural progression of market/consumer demand.

What I see with both BR and HD is them both trying to "BLOCK OUT" areas of the competition and to me that is just making attempts to restrict my choice as a consumer in their own "Stop at nothing to win the war regardless of what is best for the consumers". Sony takes way more heat for this simply because up until now they have done a much better job of it.

Can anyone honestly think that BR players wouldn't almost all still be still around $1000 and up (Many still are I guess) if they were the only game in town? Would we see prices on either side and features added as quickly as they have if there was only one?

Would we see as many DL50's are there are? Would we see the move to AV4 and the advanced codecs if not for HD-DVD's competition? Would we have gotten such low prices and surprise gifts like True-HD on the HD-DVD side? Would we have the level of quality on either disk format?

You will never be able to convince me that fair competition is a bad thing. Even with the borked competition we have now we are achieving these things. Now if I have access to everything on each format I would then get to chose and not the BDA or HD-DVD group.

Cheers,

Richard

PS. The real irony as I think about it isn't that it's this BR fanboy against that HD-DVD fanboy, it's that the real war should be both fanboys against BR & HD-DVD for trying to take away their freedom of choice in the situation.

I don't care what you say there are few if any BR only owners that do not wish they had Uni titles and for sure there are a few BR titles that I can't get from the EU that I would own already. So we all lose while the big guys try to win despite us and not for us.

Lee,

You forgot Playstation 3.

BTW, Liar Liar is great movie. :D

Depends on the version of PS3 firmware you are running. It has been enabled, disabled, and re-enabled again. Who knows what the next update will bring?

Nothing wrong with the question at all. There is nothing wrong. In the case of Beta Vs. VHS I think we all had the choice for a long time with pretty much all movies on both formats (maybe there were some exceptions, I don't know 100%) and slowly over time VHS began to dominate to the point with it was the winner.

DVD could have had competition. Heck a few tried with DIVX for a bit, but no one was interested so DVD won obviously and I agree there was little or no real competition for it other than the already existing VHS. Who else can remember the slow painful increases in DVD's availability at your local BB (Well at least it seemed slow and painful hahaa).

Now with HD the same thing goes. It is certainly a possibility that one or the other would fade to the back burner even if all studios supported both formats, but at least that would be a natural progression of market/consumer demand.

What I see with both BR and HD is them both trying to "BLOCK OUT" areas of the competition and to me that is just making attempts to restrict my choice as a consumer in their own "Stop at nothing to win the war regardless of what is best for the consumers". Sony takes way more heat for this simply because up until now they have done a much better job of it.

Can anyone honestly think that BR players wouldn't almost all still be still around $1000 and up (Many still are I guess) if they were the only game in town? Would we see prices on either side and features added as quickly as they have if there was only one?

Would we see as many DL50's are there are? Would we see the move to AV4 and the advanced codecs if not for HD-DVD's competition? Would we have gotten such low prices and surprise gifts like True-HD on the HD-DVD side? Would we have the level of quality on either disk format?

You will never be able to convince me that fair competition is a bad thing. Even with the borked competition we have now we are achieving these things. Now if I have access to everything on each format I would then get to chose and not the BDA or HD-DVD group.

Cheers,

Richard

PS. The real irony as I think about it isn't that it's this BR fanboy against that HD-DVD fanboy, it's that the real war should be both fanboys against BR & HD-DVD for trying to take away their freedom of choice in the situation.

I don't care what you say there are few if any BR only owners that do not wish they had Uni titles and for sure there are a few BR titles that I can't get from the EU that I would own already. So we all lose while the big guys try to win despite us and not for us.

I do not wish I had any Universal titles. I couldn't care less if Universal ever does BD. If they do, they do. If they don't, so what?

Deleted.

I do not wish I had any Universal titles. I couldn't care less if Universal ever does BD. If they do, they do. If they don't, so what?

Hahaa Ok sure. Maybe you really don't, but if that is the case you are probably in the vast minority.

I find it hard to believe that if you took your BR hat off for a second that you could honestly say there are not a few Uni titles you would buy.

I find it hard to believe anyone being honest with themsleves on the HD-DVD side could say there isn't at least a couple BR only movies they would take.

Cheers,

Richard

Hahaa Ok sure. Maybe you really don't, but if that is the case you are probably in the vast minority.

I find it hard to believe that if you took your BR hat off for a second that you could honestly say there are not a few Uni titles you would buy.

I find it hard to believe anyone being honest with themsleves on the HD-DVD side could say there isn't at least a couple BR only movies they would take.

Cheers,

Richard

Amen, kool aid drinking makes for some bad decision making. My fav is when people refuse to see a movie in the theatre because the OTHER guy makes it. Thats right, I have seen people say they wont see bourne, or Spiderman. Good grief, the war seeps into ALL forms of movie watching?

Amen, kool aid drinking makes for some bad decision making. My fav is when people refuse to see a movie in the theatre because the OTHER guy makes it. Thats right, I have seen people say they wont see bourne, or Spiderman. Good grief, the war seeps into ALL forms of movie watching?


Yeah we are so far past reasonable discussion on this subject it just isn't even funny.

It is now all about winning the argument or debate regardless of reality.

Never admit a shortcoming, always counter with something else.

Another example is this whole stupid PiP thing. OK, I agree that the quality of the movie is the number one thing. I also agree that much if not most of the extras have no interest to me (Although they may to others).

That said, not having the ability to choose for yourself whether or not you get to watch them if you own a current player (with the possible exception of the PS3 which they still will not confirm for some reason) is NOT A GOOD THING. Suck it up, this is a disadvantage.

The question is whether or not it will really have any impact. If anything it might cause a little confusion as we start to get some profile 1.1 and non-profile 1.1 players selling side by side, but in the end I doubt this is going to have a material impact on the format war.

So, a clear disadvantage on the BR side (whether it is meaningful to you or not does not change the shortcoming), along with the fact that is probably won't have a fart in a hurricane's impact to the format war and yet it is argued and rationalize like it was the biggest thing in the world. No disadvantage for either side can go unchallenged or defended.

I have seen way more "Johnny pulled my hair" countered with "yeah but Suzie started it when she kicked me" arguments that is ridiculous. Neither side is immune

Put it this way. BR is not going anywhere. If nothing else the PS3 has assured that. So what are the BR fanboys arguing for? They want HD-DVD dead? Why? They will get Universal eventually there is little or no doubt about that whether HD-DVD dies or not.

So what do they gain except bragging and gloating rights over those that supported HD-DVD? Maybe that is all that matters and it sure seems like this is the case given the arguments and debates more and more.

But, what are you giving up? You are fighting to remove a competitive force that would pretty much ensure that your own preferred tech stays competitively prices, offers the highest quality releases and continues to innovate long term.

Sure if BR won outright prices would fall eventually. New features would get added eventually. And maybe they would continue the using more DL50's and AV4. But do you honestly think that could be as assured if HD-DVD were dead?

Healthy competition is a good thing. We should all be fighting for both to survive. and pushing for new features etc. That goes just the same for the HD-DVD side.

If you are fighting to be the last survivor you are actually fighting to hurt yourself. If either Sony or Toshiba were to win outright then they would be the only winners. The only way that we as consumers even get a chance to win long term is if BOTH survive to compete for our $$$.

Cheers,

Richard

Previous poster makes a good point that BR has enough support that it isn't going anywhere anytime soon regardless of the fate of HD-DVD. IMO, the real question is whether HD-DVD's continued presence benefits a/v consumers through competition or spreads support for HD media, reducing its chances for widespread adpotion. IMO many BR supporters believe the latter, and that is why they want to see a single format succeed soon, not because they really care whether someone else prefers to watch HD-DVD.

Link to NEW laserdisc players and NEW Betamax VCRs?


http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/shop/product/details/0,,2076_310069633_36104,00.html

Pioneer still produces one.

Adam

Previous poster makes a good point that BR has enough support that it isn't going anywhere anytime soon regardless of the fate of HD-DVD. IMO, the real question is whether HD-DVD's continued presence benefits a/v consumers through competition or spreads support for HD media, reducing its chances for widespread adpotion. IMO many BR supporters believe the latter, and that is why they want to see a single format succeed soon, not because they really care whether someone else prefers to watch HD-DVD.

Do you think the confusion or slowing of the adoption is related to the two formats primarily or that there is a split in studio support?

I think the confusion arises "mostly" due to this information (if the consumer is lucky enough to get it all).

BR higher price, all significant studios except Uni.
HD-DVD cheaper prices and missing Disney, Sony and Fox.

That is what I think they are having a hard time choosing between.

If the message at the retailer was . Heck, they all can play all the movies. They will both most likely be around for a long long time. Go ahead and pick the one you want based on your preference of brands and features and don't worry about the "so called format war". Do you think that would reduce the confusion?

The two are vastly different and really for the most part revolve around the studio support. I do not (although many HD-DVD supporters will argue) that Price alone will win the day. Price will maybe extend the fight long enough for us all to build up so much animosity to each other that we can never logically discuss anything again. It may also prolong things enough that Uni, Disney and Fox go neutral thus getting us to the dual format competition that I think is good for us all, but it will be a painful process.

Price will never "win" the war for HD-DVD it will only keep them in the fight. At some point it does not matter how cheap something is if I can't get the movies I want to play on it. So far that hasn't quite reached maximum density (and I would like a profile 1.1 player), but eventually it will and I will go for both formats if I cannot get those movies on HD-DVD.

For every Dual format player owner out there there is a win for both BR and HD-DVD and a lose for us consumers as we are being forced to pay twice for what we should be able to get once.


Cheers,

Richard

I simply cannot imagine a single scenario in the marketplace where NO competition is good for the consumers. Sure you can argue that there would be competition within HD-DVD and within BR is either would win, but at this point that is clearly not the same as HD-DVD competing against BR.

Put it this way. BR is not going anywhere. If nothing else the PS3 has assured that. So what are the BR fanboys arguing for? They want HD-DVD dead? Why? They will get Universal eventually there is little or no doubt about that whether HD-DVD dies or not.
Richard
The PS3 does not guarantee the success of BD. They will sell something like 10m units. If the SA market is taken by HD-DVD the only long term producer of BD movies will be Sony, if anybody

Nothing wrong with the question at all. There is nothing wrong. In the case of Beta Vs. VHS I think we all had the choice for a long time with pretty much all movies on both formats (maybe there were some exceptions, I don't know 100%) and slowly over time VHS began to dominate to the point with it was the winner.

I recall it differently, initially, there was no retail market for video tapes back then, so we're really talking about rentals. As I recall, the selection was sparse on either formats, most movies don't show up on tape except via someone who bootlegged a copy from the cinema, and disney movies did not show up until MUCH MUCH later.

Except for p*rn that came out quickly and was dominantly VHS, in terms of movie selection, it didn't take long for neighborhood mom & pop rental stores to come out, and for practical reasons, some of these mom&pop rentals tape their one original to rent out many times (ok, maybe they rented the original and taped it, god knows how they did it).

I don't know if this is anecdotal, but the betamax movies were mainly on two tapes while the vhs was on one --- there were a couple I distinctly remembered as being offered that way.

There were some places that tried to stock both formats, (it's a question of taping them onto the blank tapes pre-macrovision). But I believe that VHS-only rental stores were predominantly the norm very early (and it's probably because of the p*rn). The bigger legit stores slowly reduced stocking of betamax, and that's how VHS really won because beta just didn't have enough content to rent.

I think people don't want to buy something that may quickly become obsolete, mainly as a matter of principle. I also think that retailers don't want to carry large inventories in two HD optical disc formats.

DVD has been king for a long time and it is dirt cheap. I don't think the advantages of having two HD optical formats outweigh the disadvantages.

Of course, these are just my own anecdotal views.

Yeah, riiiightttt. Forcing an 'end' means prices going back up when there's no competitor. Don't fool yourself. HD DVD is here to stay.


No competition in format does not mean no competition. If this war ended tomorrow, how long do you think it would be before the number of manufacturers of the winning format would double/triple/quadruple?

This is the argument I don't get - that keeping both formats is a good thing. Having two formats is keeping two important principals from joining the party (at least in full force):

(1) the vast number of people who have HDTV, but no HD player,
(2) manufacturers that are either only making players on a small scale or not in the market at all

End this stupid war, and some of (1) will go out and purchase players. That leads to increased interest from (2) and then the price wars start.

This doesn't even address the added resources studios would likely throw at HDM if there was only one format if for no other reason than to grow the size of the market. People want to jump on the fact that 300 sold 250,000 HD discs without acknowledging that if there was only one format, that number may have been 2/3/4? times as big.

No competition in format does not mean no competition. If this war ended tomorrow, how long do you think it would be before the number of manufacturers of the winning format would double/triple/quadruple?

This is the argument I don't get - that keeping both formats is a good thing. Having two formats is keeping two important principals from joining the party (at least in full force):

(1) the vast number of people who have HDTV, but no HD player,
(2) manufacturers that are either only making players on a small scale or not in the market at all

End this stupid war, and some of (1) will go out and purchase players. That leads to increased interest from (2) and then the price wars start.

This doesn't even address the added resources studios would likely throw at HDM if there was only one format if for no other reason than to grow the size of the market. People want to jump on the fact that 300 sold 250,000 HD discs without acknowledging that if there was only one format, that number may have been 2/3/4? times as big.

So where is the intra-BR format competition today? That is, since this competition you refer to would exist if their were only one format (BR), where is it now when there are two formats? In virtually any market I've observed, the more competitors, the more fierce the competition.

So where is the intra-BR format competition today? That is, since this competition you refer to would exist if their were only one format (BR), where is it now when there are two formats? In virtually any market I've observed, the more competitors, the more fierce the competition.


Thats my point, think of all the big CE manufacturers out there that are not currently "in the game". Do you really think that they would continue to stay on the sidelines if one side won the war tomorrow? Even those that are making attempts, don't seem to be fully engaged in it yet. I believe that would cease to be the case if there was only one format.

I also believe the product would be vastly improved. Right now both sides are in a rush to get things out there to try and either gain market share or convince people their side will win. With one format, competition will improve the quality of the hardware and software (again in my opinion).

And for the record, I really believe this to be the case with whichever side wins. From my perspective, the sooner its over the better. That may lean me towards the BR side, but only because I think it would be a quicker end than if HD DVD finds a way to come out on top.

Put it this way. BR is not going anywhere. If nothing else the PS3 has assured that. So what are the BR fanboys arguing for? They want HD-DVD dead? Why? They will get Universal eventually there is little or no doubt about that whether HD-DVD dies or not.

So what do they gain except bragging and gloating rights over those that supported HD-DVD? Maybe that is all that matters and it sure seems like this is the case given the arguments and debates more and more.

But, what are you giving up? You are fighting to remove a competitive force that would pretty much ensure that your own preferred tech stays competitively prices, offers the highest quality releases and continues to innovate long term.

Sure if BR won outright prices would fall eventually. New features would get added eventually. And maybe they would continue the using more DL50's and AV4. But do you honestly think that could be as assured if HD-DVD were dead?

Healthy competition is a good thing. We should all be fighting for both to survive. and pushing for new features etc. That goes just the same for the HD-DVD side.

If you are fighting to be the last survivor you are actually fighting to hurt yourself. If either Sony or Toshiba were to win outright then they would be the only winners. The only way that we as consumers even get a chance to win long term is if BOTH survive to compete for our $$$.

Cheers,

Richard


This is one the best posts I've read on all this.

The PS3 does not guarantee the success of BD. They will sell something like 10m units. If the SA market is taken by HD-DVD the only long term producer of BD movies will be Sony, if anybody
10 million? You must be joking. :)

Even the Nintendo GameCube, which came in last in the previous generation of console wars, managed a respectable 21 million units.

The PS3 comes in with a lot more momentum, attempting to grandfather in 100+ million PS2 owners along with their existing game libraries. Even if Sony doesn't manage to pull it out of last place, it should still manage better than 30 million units over its lifetime at a minimum - and the console war is young.

I am in Canada so maybe that is part of the difference.

I remember pretty much all stores stocking both for a few years with VHS slowely taking over.

Cheers,

Richard

I think that is is a perfectly valid argument that competition within the winning format should one Win ultimately would eventually evolve as you are stating.

But the impression I get from insider leaks and the current pricing on the BR side is that the CE's have formed a sort of alliance with a certain degree of pricing assured. This doesn't mean that that won't change over time, but I believe that a lot of the CE's are on board because they expect that with BR winning they will be able to maintain prices and healthy margins for a while.

There is nothing wrong with that. Heck I am sure Toshiba would have done the same thing in the reverse situation except they have only themselves for the most part.

So while long term I think your correct, I think in the short - mid term I think if HD-DVD died tomorrow you would see a big pause on the BR side, Pricing would set for a bit, features and all would stall while they "stabilize the format". I am sure there would be some great reason for it, but in the end it will me a less aggressive pursuit of your hard earned $$$.

Wayne I am not talking in terms of wining the war when I refer to the PS3 numbers. They do not have to win it they just have to be enough to ensure it cannot be outright lost and I think it is only reasonable to assume that regardless of the challenges facing the PS3 in the gaming arena, there are and will almost assuredly be enough to have an impact of some sort in the HD formats.

Just look at 300. I bet that even if every HD-DVD owner were to buy a copy that BR would end up ahead simply because this title will not only be bought by stand alone BR owners but also by a higher than usual percentage of PS3 owners. It is no coincidence that over 250k have shipped/sold of 300 (Not sure which number they are actually quoting and I rarely am these days hahaa)

Rather Warner will be claiming 250k, Sony and Tosh will be claiming some percentage of that. Which has a greater impact on consumers? The 250k or the split out number being argued over.

Cheers,

Richard

...

Healthy competition is a good thing. We should all be fighting for both to survive. and pushing for new features etc. That goes just the same for the HD-DVD side.

If you are fighting to be the last survivor you are actually fighting to hurt yourself. If either Sony or Toshiba were to win outright then they would be the only winners. The only way that we as consumers even get a chance to win long term is if BOTH survive to compete for our $$$.

Cheers,

Richard

Sorry, I cannot agree with everything you state here (as I do agree that competition is a good thing).

If you have multiple hardware/software vendors supporting a single format, there will be competition (vis a vis DVD, where the early competitor to DVD was DVIX). You don't need multiple non-compatible formats to induce competition.

If you have multiple hardware/software vendors supporting a single format, there will be competition (vis a vis DVD, where the early competitor to DVD was DVIX). You don't need multiple non-compatible formats to induce competition.

It sure has helped for video game pricing. Did Mac v PC help back in the day? I'd say yes. I think it speeds that competition up greatly. I guess I am in agreement that there would be competition just not at the rate we are seeing.

Sorry, I cannot agree with everything you state here (as I do agree that competition is a good thing).

If you have multiple hardware/software vendors supporting a single format, there will be competition (vis a vis DVD, where the early competitor to DVD was DVIX). You don't need multiple non-compatible formats to induce competition.

I don't disagree its more a matter of when. I am sure the oil and gas companies would have us believe they are in competition with each other, but for some strange reason they all have the same pump pricing.

I have no doubt that in a BR only world we would eventually see what you are suggesting. It is more a matter of when and what would we be sacrificing on the way there.

Cheers,

Richard

If you have multiple hardware/software vendors supporting a single format, there will be competition (vis a vis DVD, where the early competitor to DVD was DVIX). You don't need multiple non-compatible formats to induce competition.
DVIX was absolutely ZERO (please repeat that) competition to DVD. It had no affect, none, nada, zip, zero, zilch.

a) Every single DVIX player on the market also played DVDs. There was no "one or the other" choice.

b) DVIX was long gone before anyone but early adopters even noticed DVD. It lasted from holidays '98 to June of '99 (prices were about $500 for players, way out of mainstream)

I don't disagree its more a matter of when. I am sure the oil and gas companies would have us believe they are in competition with each other, but for some strange reason they all have the same pump pricing.
Best example I've seen yet. Anyone notice the price of BD players is very close? Just an accident I'm sure.

I think we do want a "healthy" profit for HD media vendors. That is what induces existing and new vendors to produce HD media.

In a highly competitive market, all vendors price pretty much the same. Time to re-read those economics books.

In a highly competitive market, all vendors price pretty much the same. Time to re-read those economics books.

Yes but with a downward trend the as competition increases.

I think we do want a "healthy" profit for HD media vendors. That is what induces existing and new vendors to produce HD media.

Agree that we want healthy profits for media creators . . . then again, even in exceptionally poor margin business, there always seems to be someone willing to through their money into the gap because they think they can do better (look no further than the airline or automotive manufacturing businesses). I'm not sure I want C/E companies with "healthy" profits either -- depends on what you define as healthy.

In a highly competitive market, all vendors price pretty much the same. Time to re-read those economics books.

Provided those vendors are already producing at the point where margin cost = marginal revenue . . . which we can be fairly certain is not happening today.

My point was simply that uniformity in pricing does not generally signal a conspiracy, as was suggested earlier in the thread.

If companies don't make good profits on new HD optical media hardware and software, they may become niche products with limited availability. As an enthusiast, personally I have no problem with paying prices that include a profit to ensure that Blu Ray survives and becomes the new standard.

I think that is is a perfectly valid argument that competition within the winning format should one Win ultimately would eventually evolve as you are stating.

But the impression I get from insider leaks and the current pricing on the BR side is that the CE's have formed a sort of alliance with a certain degree of pricing assured. This doesn't mean that that won't change over time, but I believe that a lot of the CE's are on board because they expect that with BR winning they will be able to maintain prices and healthy margins for a while.

There is nothing wrong with that. Heck I am sure Toshiba would have done the same thing in the reverse situation except they have only themselves for the most part.

So while long term I think your correct, I think in the short - mid term I think if HD-DVD died tomorrow you would see a big pause on the BR side, Pricing would set for a bit, features and all would stall while they "stabilize the format". I am sure there would be some great reason for it, but in the end it will me a less aggressive pursuit of your hard earned $$$.

Wayne I am not talking in terms of wining the war when I refer to the PS3 numbers. They do not have to win it they just have to be enough to ensure it cannot be outright lost and I think it is only reasonable to assume that regardless of the challenges facing the PS3 in the gaming arena, there are and will almost assuredly be enough to have an impact of some sort in the HD formats.

Just look at 300. I bet that even if every HD-DVD owner were to buy a copy that BR would end up ahead simply because this title will not only be bought by stand alone BR owners but also by a higher than usual percentage of PS3 owners. It is no coincidence that over 250k have shipped/sold of 300 (Not sure which number they are actually quoting and I rarely am these days hahaa)

Rather Warner will be claiming 250k, Sony and Tosh will be claiming some percentage of that. Which has a greater impact on consumers? The 250k or the split out number being argued over.

Cheers,

Richard

Consider what happens if there was no HD DVD to compete against BD. At that point BD still has to compete against DVD, and that will be the real David vs Goliath. You have to essentially compete against $25 players in walmart. If people think that magically panasonic and sony and Funai can now jack up their BD player (or media) pricing, then the management in those divisions have to be very naive.

What can change drastically is that the marketing of HDM players can start earnestly and people can be convinced that it's cool to own a blu-ray player. In time, you can increase demand for these luxury items.

Contrast that with what is happening now. Money spent in advertising BD or HD DVD today has to contend with the reality of the format war. No amount of spin on the coolness factor is going to counter the negativity associated with "but your player can't play some highdef movies".

We are talking about going after people who want to feel good about their purchase, and any doubt is going to be amplified. Without the desire to buy the next cool gadget, HDM players will not take off, you can sell dedicated red players for $99 or blu players for $150 and it still won't crack 1M units/yr.

HD DVD is dying again.

Introducing the new Onkyo DV-HD805

http://www.gadgetell.com/images/2007/06/onkyo_dv_hd805_425.jpg

Coming this fall including HQV Reon VX video processor.

HD DVD is dying again.

Introducing the new Onkyo DV-HD805

http://www.gadgetell.com/images/2007/06/onkyo_dv_hd805_425.jpg

Coming this fall including HQV Reon VX video processor.

If that sells more than 10k units I'll eat my hat.

If that sells more than 10k units I'll eat my hat.

It is rather expensive at $899 MSRP. If they don't lower the price significantly, you will still have you hat to wear.

HD DVD is dying again.

Introducing the new Onkyo DV-HD805

http://www.gadgetell.com/images/2007/06/onkyo_dv_hd805_425.jpg

Coming this fall including HQV Reon VX video processor.

You said it....


It looks like my XA2 in a silver finish!

Looks strangely farmiliar, well except for the price tag. :)

So while long term I think your correct, I think in the short - mid term I think if HD-DVD died tomorrow you would see a big pause on the BR side, Pricing would set for a bit, features and all would stall while they "stabilize the format".If Blu-ray won before any Chinese companies had been approved to make players then I think you could be right, but if even 2 of those companies get approved and can get parts then they would compete enough to drive player prices down. That is one reason I think it would make sense for Universal to make that one of the conditions if they were going to go neutral.

--Darin