This thread is solely for the purpose of discussing blurring on HDTV's as it relates specifically to video games.

The following URL discusses blurring on HDTV's and it's many causes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDTV_Blur

In general, and unfortunately for the person who has already purchased an HDTV, almost all HDTV sets produced today exhibit motion blur due to sample-and-hld technologies.

The solutions lie almost solely with the manufacturers on future products. Philips Aptura (tm) ClearLCD technology has been reported to solve the problem and have been available since August of 2006.

Samsung LED backlit DLP's also hold some promise in Game Mode, but not enough research has been done to determine how effective this mode is at eliminating blur, as there is still persistence in the pixel color as the DLP needs some time to time-division-multiplex the red green and blue values of the pixel by turning on and off in rapid succession.

As I learn more about various set's capacities to reduce motion blur, I will report to the this thread.

Aaron Hightower
Pro Game Developer and export at solid 60Hz gameplay

Zero motion blur on my front projector and my plasma.

Zero motion blur on my front projector and my plasma.

Star56... Question: At what distance do you sit from these displays and what size are the displays?

Ahigh... Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, this type of "motion blur" is exhibited by the smearing of the image on your retina from viewing one progressive frame to the next consecutive progressive frame. The greater the "apparent" movement from one frame to the other (described by an angle) the greater the amount of this type of blur you see. Correct?

So... If Star56 sits too far from the screen the blur may not be noticable, but if Star sits closer, the blur could become more noticable.

I think this is a great thread, by the way. I have noticed motion blurring on my Plasma which is supposed to have a fast response time and I think this thread is addressing what I'm experiencing, for both video games and movies. Blurring seems worse on movies actually.

Ahigh... Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, this type of "motion blur" is exhibited by the smearing of the image on your retina from viewing one progressive frame to the next consecutive progressive frame. The greater the "apparent" movement from one frame to the other (described by an angle) the greater the amount of this type of blur you see. Correct?


You got it, Buckaroo. I appreciate the positive feedback.


So... If Star56 sits too far from the screen the blur may not be noticable, but if Star sits closer, the blur could become more noticable.


I'd like to add to this that just believing something doesn't make it true. It's possible that he doesn't see motion blur because he doesn't want to believe that it's there.

I think this is a great thread, by the way. I have noticed motion blurring on my Plasma which is supposed to have a fast response time and I think this thread is addressing what I'm experiencing, for both video games and movies. Blurring seems worse on movies actually.

Thanks. I'm encouraged to see more people catching on the this temporal artifact and separating it from all the other forms of blurring.

Does anyone have a visual example of motion blur? I am trying to determine right now if I should get a DLP (Samsung HLT5689S ) or LCDTV (LNT4665F). They both seem to have their pluses and minuses, as all TVs do. We don't play a ton of games, but we do play some XBOX 360 racing and baseball (football soon too).
I didn't love the way the LED DLPs set's looked in the store and I am not sure if I really would be able to tolerate the poor viewing angles (I have a fairly wide room) On the other hand, I like the glossy look of the 65 series but am really woried about motion blur in this set. When I saw it in Best Buy, I thought I saw some during one of the videos they were playng on it. I didn't notice it on DLP sets though.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

If you want to test a set in the store for motion blur, you might consider the following if you have a video camera:

Record fast panning object (such as cars driving past). Just record something with a fast moving object, and be careful to set your video camera in "Sports" mode, or if you have a high end camera, it will refer to it as "Shutter Priority" and set the shutter speed to 1/1000 or faster (EG: 1/10,000 or better if you have it).

Now take your video and view it on a CRT. Pause to make sure that the objects, when paused, are not blurred in any way shape or form. If they are blurred, go back to the previous step.

Once you have your source material, go to the store and bring your composite video output for your camera. You shouldn't need fancy cables for this test. Any will do.

Now hook up to the video inputs on the tv's you want to test our, and compare.

A regular tube should show absolutely no blurring. The best Plasmas and LCD's will still show blurring (pretty much all of them that are currently in stock at stores in America).

As the laser sets and the Aptura and LED strobed backlight LCD sets come out, you should start to see some sets that defeat motion blur completely.

The LED DLP's from Samsung exhibit some strobing when in game mode, but it's unknown how well this reduced motion blur. If you do this test, please give us some feedback.

If you have a 2nd camera and you can record the experiment (playing a video with the first camera), set the 2nd camera to 1/60 second shutter speed, and it will be able to record the effect of retinal blurring by panning the second camera to track the image as it pans across the screen as playing from the first camera. To understand, you need to know that you have to pan one camera at the same speed as the other.

Calibrate this test on a tube (CRT) to make sure; you shouldn't get any blur on the tube, but instead you will get shear as you follow the pan action playing from the first camera on the second camera.

I understand that all of this is possibly confusing, but I could demonstrate this effect in a controlled environment here at home if this helps.

Let me know if anyone is interested.

--
- Ahigh

If you want to test a set in the store for motion blur, you might consider the following if you have a video camera:

Record fast panning object (such as cars driving past). Just record something with a fast moving object, and be careful to set your video camera in "Sports" mode, or if you have a high end camera, it will refer to it as "Shutter Priority" and set the shutter speed to 1/1000 or faster (EG: 1/10,000 or better if you have it).

Now take your video and view it on a CRT. Pause to make sure that the objects, when paused, are not blurred in any way shape or form. If they are blurred, go back to the previous step.

Once you have your source material, go to the store and bring your composite video output for your camera. You shouldn't need fancy cables for this test. Any will do.

Now hook up to the video inputs on the tv's you want to test our, and compare.

A regular tube should show absolutely no blurring. The best Plasmas and LCD's will still show blurring (pretty much all of them that are currently in stock at stores in America).

As the laser sets and the Aptura and LED strobed backlight LCD sets come out, you should start to see some sets that defeat motion blur completely.

The LED DLP's from Samsung exhibit some strobing when in game mode, but it's unknown how well this reduced motion blur. If you do this test, please give us some feedback.

If you have a 2nd camera and you can record the experiment (playing a video with the first camera), set the 2nd camera to 1/60 second shutter speed, and it will be able to record the effect of retinal blurring by panning the second camera to track the image as it pans across the screen as playing from the first camera. To understand, you need to know that you have to pan one camera at the same speed as the other.

Calibrate this test on a tube (CRT) to make sure; you shouldn't get any blur on the tube, but instead you will get shear as you follow the pan action playing from the first camera on the second camera.

I understand that all of this is possibly confusing, but I could demonstrate this effect in a controlled environment here at home if this helps.

Let me know if anyone is interested.

--
- Ahigh



Ahigh,

I know, I'm pitiful .. but I do not own a video recorder of any kind. Even my camera is dSLR ... so no videos for me ... it's a great suggestion though and if anyone else wants to try it and post their results, it would be a very interesting piece of info.

... I wonder if this is what I am seeing when I look at HDTVs in various stores.

I've held off on buying an HDTV for so long not due to cost, but due to how the sets seemed to produce less convincing moving images, compared to my 400 dollar CRT.

This, and Fubar's thread on lag, have both been very informative. Thank you.

... I wonder if this is what I am seeing when I look at HDTVs in various stores.

I've held off on buying an HDTV for so long not due to cost, but due to how the sets seemed to produce less convincing moving images, compared to my 400 dollar CRT.

This, and Fubar's thread on lag, have both been very informative. Thank you.

Thanks for the positive feedback. It would be great if someone with an Aptura set could post up some results.

--
- Ahigh

I'm looking at projectors as a 480p for my video game and DVD viewing, and was wondering if 3LCD projectors are susceptible to motion blur as LCD flat panels are. It's either DLP and risk of rainbows, or LCD and risk of motion blur...

So, would a CRT HDTV blur? I assume it would not, at least not as much. I am looking for a good gaming TV. I recently decided to stay away from 1080p TVs due to frame rate issues, and figure a 720p TV is a better option.

CRT's are not going to blur. Here's a video I made that demonstrates CRT's and the lack of sample-and-hold on CRT's. You can also take it from me as I worked hard to make solid 60hz modes for San Francisco Rush 2049 Coin-op.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmFlrn5XFTw

I don't work in Coin-op anymore, but coin-op guys who are still making money (for example Eugene Jarvis' Raw Thrills) also understand that solid 60hz on a tube is still something that "modern" high def sets still can't compete with.

If you go and search on the internet, you'll find a lot of stuff out there that I put out there. I got sick of people who don't know what they are talking about saying their set doesn't blur. It takes a lot to understand what makes motion portrayal inferior on most modern high-def sets.

I haven't yet been able to see and dissect the Philips Aptura or Aurea sets, but I'm hopeful that they have fixed the problem also.

Thanks for the questions. And I invite others to chime in with any information they might be able to provide.