isnt the dialog normalization good? i mean there are countless times when im watching a movie and i cant hear the dialog at all , so i have to turn it up and then all of a sudden there is an explosion or the music kicks in and it is way to loud and i have to turn it back down, and im constintly raising and lowering the volume so i can hear what the actors are saying and not blow my neighbors out of there apartment at the same time.

it should be in the original soundtrack. it shouldn't have to be added for truehd or whatever.

but it is a feature of True HD and some people are saying its bad, so i was just wondering if it was actually good cause of the constant volume changes i have to do to hear the dialog.

DialNorm does not "boost" the dialogue in a sound mix. It shifts the volume of the entire soundtrack so that all movies start at a common baseline, using dialogue as a reference point. Sound effects, music, etc. remain just as loud relative to the dialogue as they always did.

DialNorm does not change a movie's soundtrack any more than the volume control on your receiver does. People who complain about it simply don't understand it, and assume it changes the sound mix (which it certainly does not).

And yet most comparisons have yielded subtle differences between PCM tracks and TrueHD tracks with DialNorm applied.

If it doesn't alter the track in some way, this shouldn't happen. Unless they're actually using different sound mixes for the PCM and TrueHD tracks.

Usually the less you manipulate something the better.

isnt the dialog normalization good? i mean there are countless times when im watching a movie and i cant hear the dialog at all , so i have to turn it up and then all of a sudden there is an explosion or the music kicks in and it is way to loud and i have to turn it back down, and im constintly raising and lowering the volume so i can hear what the actors are saying and not blow my neighbors out of there apartment at the same time.

there are receiver settings taht can help you alleviate this problem, like dynamic range compression or Night modes.

personally if the film is made in a way that explosions are particularly louder than the dialogue, then that's how i want it on the disc. disc needs to be as close to the master as possible, changing volumes on certain aspects of the movie changes that and is unacceptable to me.

I understand perfectly well what dialNorm is and I still don't like it. Certain movies... most movies nowdays... are purposely mixed with a dynamic soundtrack. The volume is intended to be set at a level where the dialog is at a comfortable and intelligable level. Gunshots, explosions, tires squealing, music, and shouting is louder because... well those things tend to be loud, and they are intended to affect the viewer/listener in a particular way. I don't want audial wallpaper. I want an enveloping movie with depth and clarity in the soundtrack as well as the picture.

I understand perfectly well what dialNorm is and I still don't like it. Certain movies... most movies nowdays... are purposely mixed with a dynamic soundtrack. The volume is intended to be set at a level where the dialog is at a comfortable and intelligable level. Gunshots, explosions, tires squealing, music, and shouting is louder because... well those things tend to be loud, and they are intended to affect the viewer/listener in a particular way. I don't want audial wallpaper. I want an enveloping movie with depth and clarity in the soundtrack as well as the picture.

yep, i dont expect to hear anyone talk at a shooting range, same issue applys here that sound effects are going to be louder than dialogue.

there are receiver settings taht can help you alleviate this problem, like dynamic range compression or Night modes.

personally if the film is made in a way that explosions are particularly louder than the dialogue, then that's how i want it on the disc. disc needs to be as close to the master as possible, changing volumes on certain aspects of the movie changes that and is unacceptable to me.

trust me i never like changing anything from what was originally made for the movie. im just saying, im in a situation where i live in an aparmtent complex, and i have to turn up the volume to hear the dialog but then everything else is to loud to play in an apartment so i have to turn it back down on action sequences.

ill look into those modes you said in a new reciever though.

trust me i never like changing anything from what was originally made for the movie. im just saying, im in a situation where i live in an aparmtent complex, and i have to turn up the volume to hear the dialog but then everything else is to loud to play in an apartment so i have to turn it back down on action sequences.

ill look into those modes you said in a new reciever though.
Pretty much every receiver has them, even economy models. Also, DD tracks are made to work with Dynamic Range Compression at the player level, but I don't know if TrueHD is compatible with it. My gut feeling is it isnt, but anyone's free to chime in on that.

Most receivers have loudness settings or midnight modes. I don't know if newer receivers apply these settings differently (perhaps in the digital realm) and perform these tasks better. I tend to just use the remote if it's a concern, ever since college when I forgot to turn compression off the player for a movie or two and was kicking myself.

So easy to get fanatical about these things. Lately I've been wondering if I should do separate MCACC settings that account for the background noise of the PS3 fan. Always ran them with it off. As it is, I have one for sub, 1 without since I can't run it most of the time. Sigh.

No... and Yes.

The purist will want the movie "as it is supposed to sound". Which means that you should be able hear the conversation, and the ensuing action sequences reflect how much louder it is compared to the dialog.

I decided to go to www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD.html for more info. This is what they say:
Features
100 percent lossless coding technology.
Up to 18 Mbps bit rate.
Supports up to eight full-range channels of 24-bit/96 kHz audio.*
Supported by High-Definition Media Interface (HDMI™), the new single-cable digital connection for audio and video.
Supports extensive metadata including dialogue normalization and dynamic range control.
*Dolby TrueHD can support more than eight audio channels. HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc standards currently limit their maximum number of audio channels to eight.

Benefits
Delivers enthralling studio-master-quality sound that unlocks the true high-definition entertainment experience on next-generation discs.
Offers more discrete channels than ever before for impeccable surround sound.
Compatible with the A/V receivers and home-theaters-in-a-box (HTIBs) of today and tomorrow.
Dialogue normalization maintains the same volume level when you change to other Dolby Digital and Dolby TrueHD programming.
Dynamic range control (Night mode) enables you to customize audio playback to reduce peak volume levels (no loud surprises) while experiencing all the details in the soundtrack, enabling late-night viewing of high-energy surround sound without disturbing others.
Selected as the mandatory format for HD DVD and as an optional format for Blu-ray Disc.

Of particular interest is of course the now infamous DN and DRC. From what I gather these are post processing steps, not neccesarily what is included from the source onto soundstream. If Dolby is incorporating DN and DRC as defacto post processing steps (i.e. you cannot turn it off manually), I would have to say they are changing the way the original soundstream sounds.

As Josh Z noted and now I can understand his POV (sorry Josh if it seemd like I was attacking your position in another thread), it does not do anything to the source, it just maintains volume levels between Dolby sources. Stupid IMO - I can handle my volume control on the remote just fine.

However I do want whatever is in the original soundtrack. DialNorm and DRC (DRC is worse if incorporated directly into the TrueHD post processing) should be purely a function of the receiver or AV processor. I have both those functions on my older model non TrueHD Denon receiver. If I live next door to an linebacker that needs his beauty sleep (which I have speaking from personal experience in college) - I'm turning DialNorm and/or DRC to "ON". Otherwise I can choose hear the movie in its full glory. I should have the choice - not incorporated into the post processing soundstream.

To me DialNorm and/or DRC or any bastardization of the soundstream and is akin to full screen pan & scan for video.

well, solo88, we'll have to wait for a blu ray player that can pass a trueHD bitstream to the receiver to test that. i know i've tried to enable dynamic range compression on trueHD tracks that are being sent as multichannel PCM, and my onkyo 805 will not allow it to be turned on. I've also tried that with DVD's and dolby digital tracks- if I send them as PCM, no compression is possible. if i send the dolby digital bitstream, I can enable compression. So it looks to me like we'll need the ability to pass a trueHD bitstream before we'll have an answer. I saw pioneer announced a player today with that capability. I'm sure there'll be a few on the market soon.

I don't really like it, so far that I've heard, I've never heard it do the adjustments in a smart & sane manner. I don't think it can be done well without either some really powerful AI or with some hinting data in the audio stream.

I depend on dialnorm. For exach move I watch, it is nice to have a normalized volume level to start. Normally, when I watch a flick, while the disc is booting up, etc, I set my volume to -3 and let the movie begin. With dialnorm, any adjustment in level is rarely more than 1 db or 2. It is nice to have a reproducible starting point in volume level with every movie you put in.

Without dialnorm, the movie may start out too quiet or way too loud, so you have to play around with each movie, every time to get the sound right. That is a PITA.

As Josh pointed out, dialnorm adjusts the whole movie level, not various frequencies so that dialog is at a comfortable level at a reproducible starting point.

If I live next door to an linebacker that needs his beauty sleep (which I have speaking from personal experience in college) - I'm turning DialNorm and/or DRC to "ON".Why would you turn on DialNorm when you can simply turn down the volume to a comfortable level?

Worth a read, dispells some myths about DialNorm:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-dialog-normalization-6-2000.html

Sanjay

I depend on dialnorm. For exach move I watch, it is nice to have a normalized volume level to start. Normally, when I watch a flick, while the disc is booting up, etc, I set my volume to -3 and let the movie begin. With dialnorm, any adjustment in level is rarely more than 1 db or 2. It is nice to have a reproducible starting point in volume level with every movie you put in.

Without dialnorm, the movie may start out too quiet or way too loud, so you have to play around with each movie, every time to get the sound right. That is a PITA.

As Josh pointed out, dialnorm adjusts the whole movie level, not various frequencies so that dialog is at a comfortable level at a reproducible starting point.
No one is saying it adjusts separate frequencies. However, it doesn't adjust the entire soundtrack to the same degree. When the sound gets louder, it brings everything for the time frame of the louder portion of the soundtrack down. When the movie gets quieter, it brings the volume back up, thus deterring from the impact of the unaffected soundtrack.

And if set incorrectly it can affect the dynamic range as well as the volume. I've also read that it can affect the resolution as well.

Just leave it off!

And if set incorrectly it can affect the dynamic range as well as the volume. I've also read that it can affect the resolution as well.

!
Where did you "read" this?

People confuse the louder PCM tracks with the slightly quieter True HD tracks. Louder is not better.

Just like over-saturated colors and contrast of sunday night football isn't better than normal movies.

If I live next door to an linebacker that needs his beauty sleep (which I have speaking from personal experience in college) - I'm turning DialNorm and/or DRC to "ON". Why would you turn on DialNorm when you can simply turn down the volume to a comfortable level?

Worth a read, dispells some myths about DialNorm:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-dialog-normalization-6-2000.html

Sanjay
The volume was quite comfortable for me - it was the linebacker that felt otherwise =)

Thanks for the read - I have been to Secrets site so many times in the past but never came across this article until you pointed it out. While I agree with the context of DialNorm being implemented on TV (citing the example they gave about the commercial), my preference is to have it manually overidden by choice in the HT arena. But as I can see from the date of the article, I have already been "enjoying" DialNorm for quite sometime without realizing it. So I'll continue enjoying this feature if I have no choice but a Dolby soundtrack on the title. Cheers.

I thought we all agreed that the extra attenuation of dialnorm was bad. DTS, PCM, SACD, etc don't have/need it.

When the sound gets louder, it brings everything for the time frame of the louder portion of the soundtrack down. When the movie gets quieter, it brings the volume back up, thus deterring from the impact of the unaffected soundtrack.

This couldn't be more wrong. I suggest reading some of the information linked to elsewhere in this thread.

I understand perfectly well what dialNorm is

I hate to break it to you, but you really don't, and reading many of the posts here you aren't alone. Reduces dynamic range? Affects resolution? Where are people getting this information from?

Joevfx, Dialog Normalization is a useful feature, less so on optical disc than for off-air broadcasts, but useful nonetheless.

Over the years a great deal of misinformation has been spread about it, and it has become like some kind of mythical home theater boogie man. However, as Josh Z stated earlier, the people who don't like it generally don't truly understand what it is or what it does.

It adjusts the volume, just like your receiver's volume dial, and it attenuates by the same amount throughout a movie (in other words it doesn't vary during a presentation). If you don't like it, adjusting the volume up by a few dB (usually 4) will completely and totally negate its effect. Simple.

It doesn't affect the master (it's metadata, so doesn't impact the source at all). It doesn't change the resolution. It doesn't affect dynamic range. It changes the volume, and that is all. The hysteria surrounding it is just good old-fashioned ignorance.

If you want your dialogue louder than the rest of the movie then your receiver should have settings for each seperate speaker. Just turn the center channel up. I hate not hearing dialogue so I make my center a tad louder than the rest of my system. Works out perfect.

No one is saying it adjusts separate frequencies. However, it doesn't adjust the entire soundtrack to the same degree. When the sound gets louder, it brings everything for the time frame of the louder portion of the soundtrack down. When the movie gets quieter, it brings the volume back up, thus deterring from the impact of the unaffected soundtrack.No.

Moreover, few here can even get their gain to THX reference level (-0) so the idea of dialnorm should be even more palatable.

I thought we all agreed that the extra attenuation of dialnorm was bad. DTS, PCM, SACD, etc don't have/need it.
I wasn't even going to go there because we're going to get into a whole other discussion. I never really agreed with most Dolby and/or THX post processing.

Hence my my last post:So I'll continue enjoying this feature if I have no choice but a Dolby soundtrack on the title. Cheers.
I used to double-dip on all my fav movies when they came out with DTS (and not because it's "louder") or Superbit (DTS by default).

I depend on dialnorm. For exach move I watch, it is nice to have a normalized volume level to start. Normally, when I watch a flick, while the disc is booting up, etc, I set my volume to -3 and let the movie begin. With dialnorm, any adjustment in level is rarely more than 1 db or 2. It is nice to have a reproducible starting point in volume level with every movie you put in.

Without dialnorm, the movie may start out too quiet or way too loud, so you have to play around with each movie, every time to get the sound right. That is a PITA.

As Josh pointed out, dialnorm adjusts the whole movie level, not various frequencies so that dialog is at a comfortable level at a reproducible starting point.If thebland likes it, it must be good! :p

If thebland likes it, it must be good! :p

You've been doing your homework...:D

It doesn't affect the master (it's metadata, so doesn't impact the source at all). It doesn't change the resolution. It doesn't affect dynamic range. It changes the volume, and that is all.

How is the volume change achieved? In the digital domain or the analog domain?

How is the volume change achieved? In the digital domain or the analog domain?The 4dB attenuation is usually in the digital domain; some companies, like ADA (http://www.ada.net/products/ht/pre_amps.php), used to do it in the analogue domain (don't know if they still do).

Sanjay

Now the question is what bit domain the attenuation (is it really 4 dB for every movie?) occurs and is passed through, thereafter. If the entire soundtrack is moved down in gain, then somewhere in the process that bottom part of the soundtrack needs to be clipped off (whether or not you believe this bottom part contains legitimate low level signal, "ambience", or simply noise, is another topic, altogether). So that seems like a potential area for "loss", imo (again, if you consider that loss to be a significant loss, that is a whole other can of worms).

So once you get to your volume knob (which also may be operating in the digital domain or analog domain), to raise the gain back to "your" reference level, the gain is raised on that "clipped" sountrack. The clipped part must now be occupied by some sort of signal (probably noise), but it won't be the original signal (albeit, the same noise) that the soundtrack came with before dialnorm was applied.

Does anyone object to this?

To the best of my knowledge, it is not 4db per movie, it is done on a movie by movie basis, but 4db seems to be a common adjustment.

If it is done in the digital domain, then yes, it will introduce some loss. Whether that loss is audible as actual signal, or is just noise is questionable: just noise if dropping lsb of a 24 bit sample, probably signal if it were a 16 bit sample.

I can see a need for this in TV where the commercials are louder, in fact, I wish it were available to me for broadcasts with commercials, but what is the point in a movie? I adjust the volume of the same movie differently depending on how I feel that day, and everything trustworthy that I have read (and that isn't much) indicates it would increase or decrease the sound by the same amount for the duration of the film, not adjust differently during quiet or loud sections of the movie.

Now the question is what bit domain the attenuation (is it really 4 dB for every movie?) occurs and is passed through, thereafter.It's not always 4dB, but that seems to be the typical amount of attenuation (which I think works out to less than one bit?). So that seems like a potential area for "loss", imo (again, if you consider that loss to be a significant loss, that is a whole other can of worms).Wouldn't the significance of the "loss" be dependent on multiple factors? For example: if your system and room and ears cannot resolve more than the equivalent of a 20-bit signal, then have you lost any resolution when truncating a 24-bit signal by one bit? Before reflexively assuming a loss in resolution from digital level attenuation, I would look at the rest of the playback chain (noise floor of the DSP, analogue stages, etc). If that resolution is lower than word length being truncated, then there's no real-world loss. Does anyone object to this?I don't, because you're approaching the issue reasonably. But I do object to the soundtrack-destroying claims that alarmists are ascribing to DialNorm.

Sanjay

I agree about the obvious use to tame loud commercials, but I think there was an interesting topic here about this very issue (cable, digital cable forums?) about how the "commercial making people" somehow found a way to exploit the dialnorm operation to still make their commercials louder. This doesn't surprise me at all, as the loudness of commercials compared to the main program is worse then ever, lately. It's to the point where I have to crank the volume to just get decent volume on the main program, and then the commercial comes on blaring like a rock concert. When you have to readjust the volume every 9 minutes of program and then back after 4 min of commercial, that is a REAL PIA! :mad:

Wouldn't the significance of the "loss" be dependent on multiple factors?

Oh, don't get me started! ;) That's why I was sure to qualify my statements as "technically true", while acknowledging the discussion of actual impact is a whole other can of worms.