IMHO, (The Walmart shoppers won't appreciate this)......

The trend that was started years ago has now backfired
(at least for some products, such as HDD based DVD recorders)!
The manufacturers have gotten carried away with this broad policy that
they are forced to sell DVD recorders (for example) at bargain basement prices!
For example, take the Panny -EH55S. It had an MSRP of $499.00 and was selling for as little as $380.00. The wholesale cost was approx. $300.00 (generally speaking, cost is approx. 35-40% below MSRP).
Compare this to the -E100 three years earlier.
That model had an MSRP of $1200.00 and sold for approx. $700.00-800.00, when it was hot!
When comparing features (especially hard drive size), the -EH55S is a superior unit and sold for approx. $300.00-400.00 less! Build quality, although not up to Japanese standards, was not all that bad. It seems to be reliable (so far).
Recently, since the demise of "major brand" HDD units, people have spent well over $1000.00 for this model! The price that it was selling for before Panasonic killed it was, IMHO, a joke! - Hmmm, maybe the braniacs at Panny realized that they screwed up and stopped production on it (much too long before the
March 1st fiasco)!
I don't recall ever seeing an MSRP increase, maybe decrease. True, the
-E100 was a Japanese unit and was more costly to build but the imbalance in pricing for a so called "high-end" unit like the -EH55S is ridiculous!
Certainly, I, like others here, would prefer to pay less but if there's a limited market, they should do what the "high-end" audio product companies do......
keep the prices higher. It adds a sense of prestige to the product and it becomes much more profitable!
So......the next time some idiot from Panasonic tells you that DVD recorders with hard drives were not profitable enough (I've been told this by them)......tell them "so why did you lower the price so much and make it an unprofitable item?"
I am almost certain that the majority of HDD/DVD recorder buyer's out there
would have paid $100.00-200.00 more for the -EH55 from the outset. It was a powerhouse unit!
Pioneer is guilty of the same policy but is not as recognizable as Panasonic, while not being any more prestigious a company.
Interestingly enough, the prices on the 2007 Panny's have gone up (albeit slightly). They will cite the fact that these newer models use a digital tuner. Wanna bet that, even with the digital tuners, these new models are costing them less to build!
Perhaps they are exploiting the new tuners and using this feature as an excuse to increase profits that they lost in 2006?
Too little, too late!

Poor quality, disposable products.....and we can't get what we need......
it's a problem trend to say the least!

What's next, an HDD based unit (with an even larger hard drive) from Panasonic for $199.00?...... that self destructs in no time......so that they can cry about how little profit they made!

Sorry for the rant and I'm sure I'll get grief for this but......
there is a downside to these crazy low prices......and the disposable market
that they've created! :(

There is nothing inherently wrong with a "disposable market". The problem is really in the minds and hearts of people who thing they they should be able to pay low prices and get superior quality, and those who think because they are willing to pay higher prices that manufacturers should be falling all over themselves to serve those few people willing to pay extra. Both are silly.

So......the next time some idiot from Panasonic tells you that DVD recorders with hard drives were not profitable enough (I've been told this by them)......tell them "so why did you lower the price so much and make it an unprofitable item?"


Pure hogwash! That is not why they quit making hard drive models for sale in the USA. Do you believe every CEO that has resigned and stated it was because they wanted to spend more time with the wife and family? That was a standard canned answer that was put out there, hoping the public would believe it. The only reason hard drive DVD recorders are hard to find in the USA is because of pressure on the manufacturers from the MPAA and maybe some other trade groups. Manufacturers know that if they make something the public wants, they will sell a ton of them at whatever price they ask (within reason). When the threat of lawsuits from the deepest pockets in the world are presented in private to shallow pocket manufacturers, they set up and take notice. The same thing happened in Europe with camcorders. The manufacturers purposely made camcorders that could easily be enabled to accept an input from a computer or VCR. The EU considers those units VCR's and they are taxed at a ridiculously high rate to protect Phillips (an EU member). The EU told Sony and other manufactures " ether make your camcorders so that they can't be enabled or you won't be allowed to import them here, beyond a certain date". Sony and others immediately complied.

If it sounds phony, it is probably phony. But they had to say something and the MPAA wouldn't allow them to say the real reason. There are those that still believe in the tooth fairy. If you want to believe that the USA won't buy hard drive recorders but the rest of the world will, then go ahead and believe it.

Dave

Well. I guess I just found out who still believes in the tooth fairy.

Pure hogwash! ... The only reason hard drive DVD recorders are hard to find in the USA is because ... Cue the X-Files music....

Seems that anytime anything happens that is even remotely not in the consumer's personal interest, it has to be a conspiracy, or idiocy, on the part of some company. They talk about religion being the foundation of a demon-haunted world, but I think this gives it a run for the money.

DVD-Recorder with Integrated Digital Tuner, 250GB HDD & HDMI
[Model No: DMR-EX85]
All the benefits of Panasonic Hard Disk Drive Recording technology with the benefit an Integrated Digital Tuner!
RRP: $989 [GST Inc.] (US$828)
Integrated DVB-T Digital Tuner (SD) for Digital Television Reception
Up to 443hrs recording time on the 250GB HDD
HDMI Connection: Superior picture & sound quality + Viera Link Control
Super Multi-Format Recording & Playback
High Definition (1080i/720p) Up-conversion with HDMI
---

Panasonic is now selling the above HDD DVD recorder in Australia. I don't know if a DVDB-T digital tuner is the equivalent of an ATSC tuner, so I can't say if problems with meeting the USA ATSC requirement is why Panasonic did not release a 2007 HDD DVD recorder in the USA. It seems the US is becoming a very consumer unfriendly place, with the threat of lawsuits and government action at the behest of large entertainment companies enough to scare away the newest consumer electronics technologies.

DVD-Recorder with Integrated Digital Tuner, 250GB HDD & HDMI
[Model No: DMR-EX85]
All the benefits of Panasonic Hard Disk Drive Recording technology with the benefit an Integrated Digital Tuner!
RRP: $989 [GST Inc.] (US$828)
Integrated DVB-T Digital Tuner (SD) for Digital Television Reception
Up to 443hrs recording time on the 250GB HDD
HDMI Connection: Superior picture & sound quality + Viera Link Control
Super Multi-Format Recording & Playback
High Definition (1080i/720p) Up-conversion with HDMI
---

Panasonic is now selling the above HDD DVD recorder in Australia. I don't know if a DVDB-T digital tuner is the equivalent of an ATSC tuner, so I can't say if problems with meeting the USA ATSC requirement is why Panasonic did not release a 2007 HDD DVD recorder in the USA. It seems the US is becoming a very consumer unfriendly place, with the threat of lawsuits and government action at the behest of large entertainment companies enough to scare away the newest consumer electronics technologies.

The profit structuring mistakes they made have bit them in the ass so hard
that they would rather sell these type of units outside of the US......
for much greater Profit!

BTW, Panasonic and Pioneer have been producing models with digital tuners and hard drives for at least three years......in Asia!

First, we get models that are really older generation versions of what's really been available overseas for years!
Then, they decide to stop exporting them altogether!

America......what a country! :eek:

DVD-Recorder with Integrated Digital Tuner, 250GB HDD & HDMI
[Model No: DMR-EX85]
All the benefits of Panasonic Hard Disk Drive Recording technology with the benefit an Integrated Digital Tuner!
RRP: $989 [GST Inc.] (US$828)
Integrated DVB-T Digital Tuner (SD) for Digital Television Reception
Up to 443hrs recording time on the 250GB HDD
HDMI Connection: Superior picture & sound quality + Viera Link Control
Super Multi-Format Recording & Playback
High Definition (1080i/720p) Up-conversion with HDMI
---

Panasonic is now selling the above HDD DVD recorder in Australia. I don't know if a DVDB-T digital tuner is the equivalent of an ATSC tuner, so I can't say if problems with meeting the USA ATSC requirement is why Panasonic did not release a 2007 HDD DVD recorder in the USA. It seems the US is becoming a very consumer unfriendly place, with the threat of lawsuits and government action at the behest of large entertainment companies enough to scare away the newest consumer electronics technologies.In todays market, very very very few people would pay $828 for a DVD recorder -- especially one that didn't even record HD to the HDD.

IMHO, (The Walmart shoppers won't appreciate this)......

The trend that was started years ago has now backfired
(at least for some products, such as HDD based DVD recorders)!
The manufacturers have gotten carried away with this broad policy that
they are forced to sell DVD recorders (for example) at bargain basement prices!
.
.
.
:(
I have to agree with your original statement here. The problem is, the manufacturers of quality HDD machines cannot make them at competitive prices with the cheap junk. Nevermind that there is a world of difference between the cheap stuff, and quality stuff, nevermind that there is a world of difference between an HDD model and a non HDD model. The people don't see it, so the quality manufacturers have a choice, leave, because the market is unprofitable due to competition, or make an ad campaign educating people as to what is and what is not quality, and the differences between various models. It seems that they have elected to just abandon the market. Maybe they will be back with new HDD models next year, or the year after, or maybe everything is now going the full HD rout. Only time will tell, but for the moment, *WE* are certainly the losers.

DVD-Recorder with Integrated Digital Tuner, 250GB HDD & HDMI
[Model No: DMR-EX85]
All the benefits of Panasonic Hard Disk Drive Recording technology with the benefit an Integrated Digital Tuner!
RRP: $989 [GST Inc.] (US$828)
Integrated DVB-T Digital Tuner (SD) for Digital Television Reception
Up to 443hrs recording time on the 250GB HDD
HDMI Connection: Superior picture & sound quality + Viera Link Control
Super Multi-Format Recording & Playback
High Definition (1080i/720p) Up-conversion with HDMI
---

Panasonic is now selling the above HDD DVD recorder in Australia. I don't know if a DVDB-T digital tuner is the equivalent of an ATSC tuner, so I can't say if problems with meeting the USA ATSC requirement is why Panasonic did not release a 2007 HDD DVD recorder in the USA. It seems the US is becoming a very consumer unfriendly place, with the threat of lawsuits and government action at the behest of large entertainment companies enough to scare away the newest consumer electronics technologies.
DVB-T is not the same as ATSC, but that brings up an interesting point! DVB-T is taking over the "other" world, the one we don't live in but BILLIONS of other people do.

In the DVB.org map below, note that ATSC is only in the green countries, which are Canada, Mexico, the United States, South Korea (that small speck, far right), and Honduras. This MAY have something to do with recorder makers' focus on "them" and not so much on us cause we need a "different design, different technical spec."... pretty affluent market, for the most part, but enough $$$ for them to create and support a different product line with a different technical spec. they must meet???

http://www.dvb.org/graphics/internal/Adoption-Map_DVB-T.jpg

DVD-Recorder with Integrated Digital Tuner, 250GB HDD & HDMI
[Model No: DMR-EX85]
All the benefits of Panasonic Hard Disk Drive Recording technology with the benefit an Integrated Digital Tuner!
RRP: $989 [GST Inc.] (US$828)
Integrated DVB-T Digital Tuner (SD) for Digital Television Reception
Up to 443hrs recording time on the 250GB HDD
HDMI Connection: Superior picture & sound quality + Viera Link Control
Super Multi-Format Recording & Playback
High Definition (1080i/720p) Up-conversion with HDMI
---

Panasonic is now selling the above HDD DVD recorder in Australia. I don't know if a DVDB-T digital tuner is the equivalent of an ATSC tuner, so I can't say if problems with meeting the USA ATSC requirement is why Panasonic did not release a 2007 HDD DVD recorder in the USA. It seems the US is becoming a very consumer unfriendly place, with the threat of lawsuits and government action at the behest of large entertainment companies enough to scare away the newest consumer electronics technologies.

ATSC tuner is different from DVB-T and always has to receive HD.

An addition to the map posted above, here's the early 2006 engadget article it came from (http://features.engadget.com/2006/01/18/digital-television-part-ii-global-status/) and I missed "DAB" which covers the rest of the world and coexists with DVB in certain places. The article is interesting... and funny, esp. when they say this as they give lip-service to us:

"And now those pesky ATSC countries."

I'm beginning to wonder how the recorder mfgrs can divert their focus long enough to design special devices for us "pesky ATSC people"!? :D

So, the US has done to digital broadcasting what we did to Cell phones. Adopted a system most everyone else doesn't use. Somebody in congress got paid off to promote some "constiuents" patent portfolio.

The US has become the Apple of the world -- different and incompatible with everyone else because we're so cool. US politicos still haven't gotten it through their heads, we don't lead and set the world's standards any more.

Well said, Kelson...we are verrrry :cool:!

So, the US has done to digital broadcasting what we did to Cell phones. Adopted a system most everyone else doesn't use. Somebody in congress got paid off to promote some "constiuents" patent portfolio.

The US has become the Apple of the world -- different and incompatible with everyone else because we're so cool. US politicos still haven't gotten it through their heads, we don't lead and set the world's standards any more.
At least, in the case of Apple, it can be argued that it is better than the alternatives. Also, they provide "bridging" so that you can still be partly compatible.

In the case of cell phones, is the U.S. system better, equivalent or worse? After all, Cingular/AT&T (as well as Voicestream/T-Mobile) use GSM too. I wonder what the deal is with ATSC ... It's always the consumer that pays the price in the end for all these differing standards.

Actually there is no US cell phone standard. Different cell phone formats have been promoted by various companies/suppliers. CDMA, TDMA, GSM, etc, etc. Decisions on which format to build out on were decisions made by the individual cell phone companies. GSM is the most ubiquitous worldwide and is also used here in the US.

IMO the decision by Panasonic to stop selling HDD DVD recorders in the US had nothing to do with prices. It is a basic principle of economics that when prices go down demand goes up - unless demand drops faster than prices drop, which is what happend in the US. Cable company DVRs with dual digital tuners that record in HDD quickly became the preferred method for time-shifting. It was just $10/mo and if the unit failed the cable company replaced it immediately. By comparision, a HDD DVD recorder with comparable capacity costs $300 up, no dual tuner, no HD recording, no VOD or PPV, no interactivity other than TVGuide, and if it breaks you pay to fix it with a down-time that could run a month or more. While AVS members may love these devices, J6P does not, so it is no wonder that demand in the US went south. Even when they were still available in the US Best Buy stopped carrying them because of lack of demand and high returns on those that did sell. The ATSC digital tuner mandate was the last straw for Panasonic and most other manufacturers. The solution (IMO) is for Panasonic and other CE manufacturers to get the all clear to sell HD capable DVRs/recorders in the US that can compete with the cable company DVRs and add features like HD/BD-DVD recording, as they do in Japan. That will probably not happen anytime soon, however.

As to the argument that higher prices are somehow desirable and will strenghten the market for consumer products, well that is just ridiculous (IMHO). That is only true for monopolies and cartels, such as oil companies and cable TV companies, and only benefits the stockholders of those companies - not the consumer. Someone failed Economics 101.

Well said, Kelson...we are verrrry :cool:!Love your map.

IMHO, (The Walmart shoppers won't appreciate this)......

The trend that was started years ago has now backfired
(at least for some products, such as HDD based DVD recorders)!
The manufacturers have gotten carried away with this broad policy that
they are forced to sell DVD recorders (for example) at bargain basement prices!
For example, take the Panny -EH55S. It had an MSRP of $499.00 and was selling for as little as $380.00. The wholesale cost was approx. $300.00 (generally speaking, cost is approx. 35-40% below MSRP).
Compare this to the -E100 three years earlier.
That model had an MSRP of $1200.00 and sold for approx. $700.00-800.00, when it was hot!
When comparing features (especially hard drive size), the -EH55S is a superior unit and sold for approx. $300.00-400.00 less! Build quality, although not up to Japanese standards, was not all that bad. It seems to be reliable (so far).
Recently, since the demise of "major brand" HDD units, people have spent well over $1000.00 for this model! The price that it was selling for before Panasonic killed it was, IMHO, a joke! - Hmmm, maybe the braniacs at Panny realized that they screwed up and stopped production on it (much too long before the
March 1st fiasco)!
I don't recall ever seeing an MSRP increase, maybe decrease. True, the
-E100 was a Japanese unit and was more costly to build but the imbalance in pricing for a so called "high-end" unit like the -EH55S is ridiculous!
Certainly, I, like others here, would prefer to pay less but if there's a limited market, they should do what the "high-end" audio product companies do......
keep the prices higher. It adds a sense of prestige to the product and it becomes much more profitable!
So......the next time some idiot from Panasonic tells you that DVD recorders with hard drives were not profitable enough (I've been told this by them)......tell them "so why did you lower the price so much and make it an unprofitable item?"
I am almost certain that the majority of HDD/DVD recorder buyer's out there
would have paid $100.00-200.00 more for the -EH55 from the outset. It was a powerhouse unit!
Pioneer is guilty of the same policy but is not as recognizable as Panasonic, while not being any more prestigious a company.
Interestingly enough, the prices on the 2007 Panny's have gone up (albeit slightly). They will cite the fact that these newer models use a digital tuner. Wanna bet that, even with the digital tuners, these new models are costing them less to build!
Perhaps they are exploiting the new tuners and using this feature as an excuse to increase profits that they lost in 2006?
Too little, too late!

Poor quality, disposable products.....and we can't get what we need......
it's a problem trend to say the least!

What's next, an HDD based unit (with an even larger hard drive) from Panasonic for $199.00?...... that self destructs in no time......so that they can cry about how little profit they made!

Sorry for the rant and I'm sure I'll get grief for this but......
there is a downside to these crazy low prices......and the disposable market
that they've created! :(

Well new HDD DVD recorders have to catch up with the other devices or offer more features. The dual-tuner any-two-channels HD DVRs are hard to beat now. So if dvd recorders want to compete they should pile-up the features, perhaps license TiVo as an add-on option, along with computer and other devices connectivity and such. Some could say they were just trying to milk the market with their single-tuner models instead of developing competing units. They have to offer more things you can't do with a DVR. More reasons for people to buy them. And things like that.

Well new HDD DVD recorders have to catch up with the other devices or offer more features. The dual-tuner any-two-channels HD DVRs are hard to beat now. So if dvd recorders want to compete they should pile-up the features, perhaps license TiVo as an add-on option, along with computer and other devices connectivity and such. Some could say they were just trying to milk the market with their single-tuner models instead of developing competing units. They have to offer more things you can't do with a DVR. More reasons for people to buy them. And things like that.The biggest problem I can see with competeing with a DVR is that the cable co's encrypt everything above basic. How do you compete with that on a cost effective basis for the consumer when you have to build in a cablecard slot (2 if you want to implement dual tuners). Then you still have to pay the cable co something to rent the cable card(s).

It appears to me the customer base most targeted by these things is the OTA user. Unfortunately there are much fewer of us to sell to.

The biggest problem I can see with competeing with a DVR is that the cable co's encrypt everything above basic. How do you compete with that on a cost effective basis for the consumer when you have to build in a cablecard slot (2 if you want to implement dual tuners). Then you still have to pay the cable co something to rent the cable card(s).

It appears to me the customer base most targeted by these things is the OTA user. Unfortunately there are much fewer of us to sell to.
I agree. For the few of us who think the programming on cable is too poor to justify the cost a DVD recorder makes sense. When you add $70 a month cable cost and $10 to rent a PVR then a DVD recorder pays for itself in four months or less.

The ability of a DVD recorder to make archival copies and copies of VHS tapes is also a benefit not available with a PVR. If you don't care to burn DVD's and you are already paying for cable then the price of a DVD recorder may not be justified.

IMO the decision by Panasonic to stop selling HDD DVD recorders in the US had nothing to do with prices. It is a basic principle of economics that when prices go down demand goes up - unless demand drops faster than prices drop, which is what happend in the US. Cable company DVRs with dual digital tuners that record in HDD quickly became the preferred method for time-shifting. It was just $10/mo and if the unit failed the cable company replaced it immediately. By comparision, a HDD DVD recorder with comparable capacity costs $300 up, no dual tuner, no HD recording, no VOD or PPV, no interactivity other than TVGuide, and if it breaks you pay to fix it with a down-time that could run a month or more.

Combine this post with the one above (about the minimal cost of adding an HD PVR for existing cable/dish consumers) and you have a big portion of the answer.

Those on the leading edge of technology want HD, they want lots of choices, and to get it -- they needed cable/dish. To time-shift broadcast, they also needed an HD PVR.

Once you get that, you only need something to archive broadcasts you want to keep (since PVR's have a limit). DVD recorders that don't capture/store HQ WS broadcasts aren't in demand. (How many people want to record and keep SD broadcasts on DVD? -- not me!)

DVD recorders that can capture WS broadcasts in 480i are doing so in good enough quality to satisfy many of the HD consumers. In my case, I've only seen component input recorders do a great job of this -- and they still require an external device to downrez the original material. New external OTA tuners can do this, but you're still limited to local programming -- which is almost acceptable, but not quite.

On top of all this, every product released by electronic's manufacturing is under pressure to reduce build costs to compete with other manufacturers. Typically, each year a unit costs less to make than the prior year because automation brings expenses down. If they don't reduce costs, the next company will find a way (and does find a way) to make it cheaper. Even if WalMart didn't exist, the Panasonic originally mentioned would not stay priced fixed because of competition.

The bottom line, it I am one of those people who would never pay $800 or more for a unit that's designed to record/save SD formatted material. Anyone who would is crazy!!!! This product just isn't worth it.

Now, let's hear the reason HD TV's should stay above $10K!!!! :rolleyes:

gp

And I had some clown tell me the big reason that Panny is not importing HDD Recorders into the US market is that Comcast & the other cable companies made a deal with Panny not to make HDD Recorders for the US market & then the cable companies would give Panny the contract to build DVRs for them.

Kind of makes you wonder though because isn't Panny making those DVRs for Comcast :confused:

Just what the world needs - another conspiracy theory :D

Well, that's not really a conspiracy - it's just a business deal.

All conspiracies are business deals, and vice versa. :D

Pure hogwash! That is not why they quit making hard drive models for sale in the USA. Do you believe every CEO that has resigned and stated it was because they wanted to spend more time with the wife and family? That was a standard canned answer that was put out there, hoping the public would believe it. The only reason hard drive DVD recorders are hard to find in the USA is because of pressure on the manufacturers from the MPAA and maybe some other trade groups. Manufacturers know that if they make something the public wants, they will sell a ton of them at whatever price they ask (within reason). When the threat of lawsuits from the deepest pockets in the world are presented in private to shallow pocket manufacturers, they set up and take notice. The same thing happened in Europe with camcorders. The manufacturers purposely made camcorders that could easily be enabled to accept an input from a computer or VCR. The EU considers those units VCR's and they are taxed at a ridiculously high rate to protect Phillips (an EU member). The EU told Sony and other manufactures " ether make your camcorders so that they can't be enabled or you won't be allowed to import them here, beyond a certain date". Sony and others immediately complied.

If it sounds phony, it is probably phony. But they had to say something and the MPAA wouldn't allow them to say the real reason. There are those that still believe in the tooth fairy. If you want to believe that the USA won't buy hard drive recorders but the rest of the world will, then go ahead and believe it.

DaveI agree with this...and also add the threat of Tivo lawsuits as another reason the US isn't a good market for HDD recorders. However..the original poster does have a point in that price wars have led to an overall quality drop in consumer electronics. The desktop lcd monitor market is a prime example where people are snapping up cheap 22" models with inferior TN panels leaving higher quality 20" models to either lower prices (and profits) or stop production and join the cheapness. Soon you will have to buy a specialized professional monitor to get any kind of quality..

Take a look at Amazon Canada. They have plenty of hard drive units from Pioneer. But they won't ship out side Canada. I am about a five to six hour drive from Canada but it may be worth the trip to buy one. I just bought the Phillips unit and it seems to be pretty good for now.

Take a look at Amazon Canada. They have plenty of hard drive units from Pioneer. But they won't ship out side Canada. I am about a five to six hour drive from Canada but it may be worth the trip to buy one. I just bought the Phillips unit and it seems to be pretty good for now.

Those Pioneer SD DVD HDD recorder cost twice as much as HD Tivo. Almost nobody in US will buy those because they are not HD.

If you really want one, you do not need Amazon. You can find places that ship to US from Canada. Google is your friend.

And I had some clown tell me the big reason that Panny is not importing HDD Recorders into the US market is that Comcast & the other cable companies made a deal with Panny not to make HDD Recorders for the US market & then the cable companies would give Panny the contract to build DVRs for them.

Kind of makes you wonder though because isn't Panny making those DVRs for Comcast :confused:

Panasonic will make some DVR's for Comcast but they will still buy DVR's from SA and Motorola. Pioneer has been making cable boxes for years.

Take a look at Amazon Canada. They have plenty of hard drive units from Pioneer. But they won't ship out side Canada. I am about a five to six hour drive from Canada but it may be worth the trip to buy one. I just bought the Phillips unit and it seems to be pretty good for now.

Check out the international versions, available at B&H Photo/Video. They deliver in the US, they are a US company.

Check out the international versions, available at B&H Photo/Video. They deliver in the US, they are a US company.
I did not find anything at B&H or at Amazon Canada. But I found this at Best Buy Canada for about $400 Canadian:
Daytek 250GB Hard Drive DVD Recorder (DVR-950S2-250GB) - Online Only

Never miss your favourite shows again - this DVD recorder boasts a 250GB hard disk drive that lets you record all of your favourite shows and then view them at a later date. It's also compatible with a wide variety of disc formats and includes digital audio decoding for a richer listening experience.

The description says it has ATSC. Does anyone know anything about the qualtiy of Daytek or whether Best Buy Canada ships to the US.

I did not find anything at B&H or at Amazon Canada. But I found this at Best Buy Canada for about $400 Canadian:
Daytek 250GB Hard Drive DVD Recorder (DVR-950S2-250GB) - Online Only

Never miss your favourite shows again - this DVD recorder boasts a 250GB hard disk drive that lets you record all of your favourite shows and then view them at a later date. It's also compatible with a wide variety of disc formats and includes digital audio decoding for a richer listening experience.

The description says it has ATSC. Does anyone know anything about the qualtiy of Daytek or whether Best Buy Canada ships to the US.


Description is wrong. It only has NTSC tuner. Daytek sells OEM Daewoo products. www.daytek.ca BestBuy Canada does not ship to US.

I did not find anything at B&H

I just checked and found three Pio models:
DVR-550HS 160GB, $630
DVR-650HS 250GB $730
DVR-745E 400GB $930

THese are listed under "Multisystem DVD players and recorders." There are other makes as well. Pricey perhaps, but have loads of features the US 640 doesn't have.

Caveat emptor! These Pio units from B&H DO NOT come with a Pioneer warranty. They have a 90-day parts and labor warranty from B&H.

I just checked and found three Pio models:
DVR-550HS 160GB, $630
DVR-650HS 250GB $730
DVR-745E 400GB $930

THese are listed under "Multisystem DVD players and recorders." There are other makes as well. Pricey perhaps, but have loads of features the US 640 doesn't have.
I would want an ATSC tuner, a hard drive, the ability to dub to DVD and 5.1 and DTS audio. I did not find the ATSC tuner on the B&H models. I appreciate your response anyway. How could you know what features I am looking for.

The warranty is a factor. I have bought grey market lenses without a warranty from B&H in the past without a problem. However, a good warranty is valuable.

I took about and hour to research DVD recorders available in Canada and I could not find any that met my criteria.

I think that the OP has a valid point. Prices just fell to far to make it profitable for many of the makers to sell here. As prices fell more and more people could afford them, but how many people out there really understand the potential of these devices? I think that the marketing on HDD players was poor.

I look at the number of my friends who still record on VHS and bitch about the PQ, the amout of time they can record on one tape and shake my head. Most were amazed when I showed them my Panny and later the Sony, but they still didn't get that it was the answer to all of the complaints about their VHS recorders. Understand that mention a HDD and how many GBs it has and their eyes glaze over. After showing it to them in action with just basic recording most have bought one of their own, but there are a couple of holdouts.

How many people out there would love to have a HDD player to replace the VHS if they even knew it exsisted?

I either told everyone I could or showed them my units, and they loved the idea - it was just when I told them what they cost that they went marching back to their cheap, $60.00 VCR's. None of them really complained much about the picture quality using a VCR, because that's all they were ever really used to. I felt like it was a losing battle trying to inform/convert them. I basically told them once, got their feelings on it, and respected that.

Also, the majority of them were somewhat intimidated by the technology at the time. Most of them would've gotten used to it I'm sure, but it was an awful big step up from their VCR's, which they had been using for 20-odd years.

Even the DVD-only recorders were too much money, and too challenging - as long as they still had a working VCR around.

Considering that DVD recorders are just as cheap and non-durable as their older VCR's are now, and that they can get 3x the amount of recorded material on a VHS tape at nearly the same quality as a DVD at the 2-hour mode, I don't even bother touting these things much anymore.

I agree with both of you. I was truly surprised when I went to Wal-Mart and Target and saw whole sections of DVD recorders. The Philip 3575 is the top of the heap and most offered DVD recorders are cheaper and less capable. But, DVD recorders must have a word of mouth following. They are not advertised and Wal-Mart and Target are unlikely to stock merchandise for long that does not sell.