Ok - anyone with the new Oppo 980H, and also has a HDMI 1.2a or better receiver, please compare how sacd sounds using DSD versus PCM.
thanks all.

Oh yes please! I have been hunting down forums for more info, but to no avail. Kal or someone with the technical knowledge, please advise does this mean that the OPPO outputting a direct DSD signal to a receiver with DSD/DAC will be sounding as good as the $$$ Elgar combo? Well, maybe 70%? ;)

If, by some chance, somebody hears a difference how will they know if it's due to the player or the processor?

larry

Well, it will have to be due to the processor. dsd means the signal is not processed by the player. PCM must be created by the player.

I think you misunderstood my post. When I said processor, I meant pre/pro, receiver, where-the-D/A-is-done. I should have been more precise. Otherwise if your "processor" was the same as mine your original post doesn't make much sense because it's asking what receiver or pre/pro does one like.

larry

If, by some chance, somebody hears a difference how will they know if it's due to the player or the processor?

larry

The DSD sounds kick ass on my onkyo 805. My SACD's seem to sound better to me than when I just used the 970.

Regular CDs doing a 970>980 comparison (Both hooked up HDMI to Aux1 and Aux2, using direct mode on 805) sound very close. The 980 may have a little more separation but its hard to tell much of difference. Though, when I switch inputs its like a 5-6s drop of audio, so that could be part of it.

The 981 plays and decodes SACD'S just fine...

The 981 plays and decodes SACD'S just fine...

^^?

The DSD sounds kick ass on my onkyo 805. My SACD's seem to sound better to me than when I just used the 970.

Regular CDs doing a 970>980 comparison (Both hooked up HDMI to Aux1 and Aux2, using direct mode on 805) sound very close. The 980 may have a little more separation but its hard to tell much of difference. Though, when I switch inputs its like a 5-6s drop of audio, so that could be part of it.


Hi dobieck1,
which reciever did you use to decode DSD via HDMI?
My parents have the Yamaha Rx-v861 and I am eager to find out how oppo would work for them.

many thanks.

He has an Onkyo TX-SR805.

The DSD sounds kick ass on my onkyo 805. My SACD's seem to sound better to me than when I just used the 970.

Regular CDs doing a 970>980 comparison (Both hooked up HDMI to Aux1 and Aux2, using direct mode on 805) sound very close. The 980 may have a little more separation but its hard to tell much of difference. Though, when I switch inputs its like a 5-6s drop of audio, so that could be part of it.
For CDs there only way there should be a difference is if one of the players is broken. :) They're just passing PCM to the receiver and reading discs is not an issue these days. Whatever subtleties between HDMI hardware there is it shouldn't be audible. If so, see first sentence. Level matching is a must with comparisons and it's hard to do when doing the "quick switch". I don't trust my memory for more than a second so "quick switch" compares are tough. :)

larry

I read somewhere that Oppo had made improvements to the audio segment, so improved cd playback should be possible. PPL have moded the 970 caps with success.
however, CD performance is not impacted by DSD,

He has an Onkyo TX-SR805.

darn, I gotta get my glasses checked.
thanks.

I read somewhere that Oppo had made improvements to the audio segment, so improved cd playback should be possible. PPL have moded the 970 caps with success.
however, CD performance is not impacted by DSD,

Correct me if I'm wrong this would only be a factor if you were using the analog outs right? If you're hooking this up via hdmi then the 970, 980, 981 should all sound the same [when playing cds] right?

I dont know. I believe the source has to be converted to PCM. Anyway, it seems I am derailing my own thread.

ANYONE else able to compare DSD vs PCM playback of SACD's??

IANYONE else able to compare DSD vs PCM playback of SACD's??Yes but I won't get to it for about 10 days. :(

but I wanna know now!! ;) jk.

but I wanna know now!! ;) jk.I understand. I will hear your words echoing in my head all through my vacation. Sure. ;)

Post something when you get a chance. enjoy the vaca.

I dont know. I believe the source has to be converted to PCM. Anyway, it seems I am derailing my own thread.

ANYONE else able to compare DSD vs PCM playback of SACD's??

Well I'm getting my 980H tomorrow, but am still waiting on my Onkyo 875 (they are a bit slow here in Australia!) but should hopefully have it in the next week or so, and will report my findings. Basically what you are asking for is the differences in selecting DSD or PCM output from the Oppo, sending to my receiver (that supports DSD) over HDMI?

exacti-mundo!

What would be interesting would be if someone out there has a DSD capable reciever, a 980 and a PS3. I would like to see a comparison of the direct DSD vs the PS3 sending PCM at 176.4 kHz. Slightly off the topic of the thread, this situation would also allow someone to check out the PS3's upsampling of CDs to 176.4 kHz vs the Oppo's standard CD playback.

Of course, this scenario still would not solve the difficulties in setting up any kind of fast switching method. But I would still be interested in hearing such a comparison.

Chris

What would be interesting would be if someone out there has a DSD capable reciever, a 980 and a PS3. I would like to see a comparison of the direct DSD vs the PS3 sending PCM at 176.4 kHz. Slightly off the topic of the thread, this situation would also allow someone to check out the PS3's upsampling of CDs to 176.4 kHz vs the Oppo's standard CD playback.

Of course, this scenario still would not solve the difficulties in setting up any kind of fast switching method. But I would still be interested in hearing such a comparison.

Chris

I also have a PS3 so will also test this out when my Onkyo 875 arrives

No one can compare DSD to PCM???

No one can compare DSD to PCM???

I've been trying to do this comparison, but when I try to have my Denon 3808ci do the DSD to analog conversion, it seems the DSD signal is down converted to 44.1 kHz and loses the LFE track. When the DSD is converted to PCM, I'm getting 88.2 kHz with the LFE track. Someone in the 980H thread reported the same problem with their Onkyo, so it seems to be an issue with the 980H. Has anyone else noticed this? I was expecting to see 2.82 mHz displayed on the Denon when converting directly from DSD to analog (not to mention having the LFE track sent to the Denon).

Any thoughts?

2.82mHz sampling rate is for a 1bit signal. It is roughly equivalent to 88.2kHz for 2 16bit channels.

2.82mHz sampling rate is for a 1bit signal. It is roughly equivalent to 88.2kHz for 2 16bit channels.

Thank you, Kal. So does it sound right to you that I'm seeing 44.1 kHz 5.0 channel (i.e., no LFE track) when in "Direct" mode on my Denon, which is supposed to convert the DSD directly to analog (i.e., no DSD-to-PCM-to-analog conversion)?

I do not know if things are operating right or not but the display is not very communicative. Even though my math is not quite right (it's better than 16 bit PCM), my point is that the 88.2 (or 44.1) is not a discrepancy.

Not all sacds have an lfe track. 5.0 may be correct.
point is, how does it SOUND? thanks.

Not all sacds have an lfe track. 5.0 may be correct.
point is, how does it SOUND? thanks.

At this point, I'm not impressed. It doesn't sound nearly as good as the one DVD-A I tried. Indeed, I couldn't hear any difference between setting the Oppo's SACD priority to CD and Stereo SACD. I plan to hook up my analog cables this weekend and try the SACDs again.

Not all sacds have an lfe track. 5.0 may be correct.
point is, how does it SOUND? thanks.

I understand your frustration rolandtk. I'm actually really hanging out to hear the results of this. I now have my oppo, but unfortunately still waiting for my Onkyo 875. I've been told it could be the end of this week or perhaps next week. I have a few SACDs both stereo and multichannel that I'm quite familiar with, been playing via analogue out of a Denon DVD-2900. I'm hoping that the PCM out on the oppo to the Onkyo should be better than my existing setup and the DSD output maybe a fraction better again. As soon as I've done some testing you'll be the first to know!

Not all sacds have an lfe track. 5.0 may be correct.
point is, how does it SOUND? thanks.

I decided to get away from the LFE issue that had been distracting me and try some 3.0 classical recordings. I went with the Fritz Reiner/Chicago Symphony recordings of Respighi's Pines of Rome and Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra. I would say the DSD was better than PCM, but it was very close. In particular, I noticed slightly more color and transparency in the English Horn solo at the beginning of the fourth movement of Pines of Rome. The slight timbre changes that result from vibrato were a bit clearer. Again, these mere minor differences. Perhaps it would be a bit more striking with better speakers (mine are not great for classical). Also something to consider--my Denon 3808 applies Denon's AL24 processing to PCM but not to DSD, so I'm not sure what difference, if any, that was making.

I hope this is what you were looking for.

OK, this is totally weird but... I have a JVC RX-D402B receiver which is HDMI 1.1 compliant according to the specs. It decodes high res multichannel PCM through HDMI no problem.

I was fooling around with my 980H today and switched the SACD output from PCM to DSD... and to my surprise the receiver seems to accept and decode DSD! At first, I was thinking that despite the 980H being set to DSD output for SACD, maybe the player is still converting DSD to PCM automatically because it is hooked up to a 1.1 HDMI receiver. After all, my RX-D402B is still showing multichannel PCM with the 980H set to DSD.

But the DSD setting seems to sound noticeably better than the PCM setting. Instruments have better separation and clarity - I've listened to Kind Of Blue, Derek and the Dominos and Alice In Chains Greatest Hits multichannel SACD's today in both settings and they each sounded better with the 980H set to DSD. The PCM setting sounds a bit harsher in the upper end and instrument separaton is not as wide or distinct. My mains are decent full size Paradigm speakers, my center channel is a real nice KEF coaxial speaker, and I have Infinity rear speakers that also sound great. It's not that hard to notice a difference between DSD and PCM settings on the 980H.

Is it possible that my receiver is in fact decoding DSD? Or am I imagining things?

On the DV-980H, when the unit has been set to DSD, and the receiving device does not accept DSD, it will revert back to PCM as to not damage your receiving equipment or speakers.

Hmmm... I'll have to listen again. I swear I could hear a difference - but maybe it is my imagination.

When you say the 980H reverts back to PCM if the receiver can't accept DSD... does the menu setting actually change from DSD back to PCM? In my case, it stays set to DSD in the menu.

It changes back in the background. The menu item itself does not change.

OK, then I guess I must be hearing things. Oh, well...

"Hearing things" is the essence of being an audiophile ;)

I am very interested in the 980H, but I'm very confused by the audio. I have a Denon AVR-4802R receiver (with 7.1ch analog, coaxial, and optical audio inputs...no HDMI).

From the AVR-4802R manual:
"For future multi-channel audio format(s), the AVR-4802R is provided with 7.1 channel (seven main channels, plus one low frequency effects channel) inputs, along with a full set of 7.1 channel pre-amp outputs, controlled by the 8 channel master volume control."

These are the AVR-4802R decoders:
THX Surround EX decoder
DTS-ES decoder
Dolby Pro Logic II
Dolby Digital Surround EX
DTS Neo:6
DTS-ES Matrix 6.1
THX Ultra 2
Dolby Digital, DTS decoder

Will the AVR-4802R allow for optimum sound quality from the 980H? Thanks

Ok, I've done some extensive SACD testing with choosing DSD or LPCM from my Oppo 980H and Marantz SR-8002, which does accept DSD. A note that you need to hit the HDMI button on the Oppo remote to get it to send the DSD high resolution audio (this sets the TV output to one of the high def modes... the 5.1 channel audio won't work in low rez TV mode).

I've been using Natalie Cole's SACD, Ask a woman who knows. Also tried Ray Charles/Count Basie Swings.

The results were a bit shocking to me.

The answer: The LPCM sounds slightly different.

I found LPCM had a slightly more defined mid-range, and voices seemed to "pop" out just a smidge more (not much). Almost sounds like an equalization kind of thing. At the same time, when I listened closely to detailed music, like Badi Assad Verde, I seemed to feel like there was a very, very slight increase in range when using DSD. It could be that the slight increase in voice range on the scale may be overpowering details every-so-slightly, but I'm not sure.

I am really surprised by this. Going to do some more listening, but LPCM definitely seems to bring voices out to the front more -- possibly at the expense of extreme detail. Will do some more listening to decide if it's having a negative effect on the rest of the instruments. On the first two disks I preferred the more boisterous voice provided by LPCM, but on highly-detailed music, I preferred DSD.

HMM.

Update:

The odd thing is that I've been comparing the two using the Marantz's Source and Pure Direct settings, which provide the purest signal from the Oppo. I assumed this would be the best basis from which to compare the two. Tonight, however, when I switch into Auto setting, the difference between DSD and LPCM is more dramatic, with DSD sounding better.

Seems the DSD signal is more easily processed within the amp in a clean way or something. That's my guess, anyway.