Need some advice from you guys... I'm building a home and I used the CI recommended by my builder to lay out my HT. He owns a sizable stereo/HT/custom installation business locally and is supposed to be an "expert" and based on his history appears to be one. In any case he designed the initial layout for the home theater:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/507/TheaterPlan1.jpg
Notice that he designed the front (screen location) of the theater such that there is a "false wall" that is framed out from the actual wall about 2' (ended up closer to 3' in actual construction).

Here is photo after it was framed:
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/507/TheaterFalseWall1.jpg
You can see it was framed in a few feet from the "real" wall.

Once it was framed it looked like this:
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/507/TheaterFalseWall2.jpg
You can see an indentation was framed in to house the 120" approximate sized screen. The wall was subsequently plastered and painted black and that's where I stand today.

Unfortunately, (or fortunately depending on how you look at it) the CI after six months still didn't supply a proposal so I was forced to fire him. I'm now left with this wall and I'm not sure what the hell to do with it. I have some idea what he was planning but not completely (apparently "experts" do things their way so I let him). Basically, as I understand it he was going to cut out large areas of the plaster on both sides and underneath the screen and he was then going to use fabric to cover them. The speakers were to be placed on shelves (I think) inside the walls and behind the cloth and thus would hide them. From what I understand he got this idea at "The Ranch," which I think has something to do with Lucas films or THX or something.

When I purchased my new HT speaker and amp the "expert" at the boutique strongly recommended (it seemed more like a directive) that I remove the wall as the sound would be compromised by being placed in the wall as intended. He said it might not be terrible but would be "compromised."

So, I'm stuck between the experts and not sure which way to go... continue with the plan the best I can or remove the wall and do a typical setup.

My new CI doesn't really want to get in the middle of it and seems happy to do what I tell him (can't blame him for that I guess).

I'd rather not tear the wall out and have to redo all the work to move the wall back but I also don't want to be stuck with a poor setup before my house is even finished!

Please advise! :)

Well I'm no self-professed "expert", but I'd say you lost 24"+ of projector distance. BUT- you could cut holes that would house some speakers that would normally have to be seen I.E. really nice free-standing units (as opposed to wall mount or flush). Simply cut the holes, mount the units, and cover with non-sound-absorbent (?) fabric. Not to mention an easy cable access. Maybe mount the screen to a hinged panel (ala garage door opener, only use actuators) and have a hidden storage area.

Definitely want to look at blind options for those screen-killing windows......
Lots of potential with that room though.
2 cents......

Never stick speakers designed for free standing use in holes cut in walls. get speakers designed for inwall use.

I think I would design front of your dreams and have it built. that is a LOT of wasted space and is a limiting factor for screen size. May be an issue for a 2:35 aspect.

Well I'm no self-professed "expert", but I'd say you lost 24"+ of projector distance. BUT- you could cut holes that would house some speakers that would normally have to be seen I.E. really nice free-standing units (as opposed to wall mount or flush). Simply cut the holes, mount the units, and cover with non-sound-absorbent (?) fabric. Not to mention an easy cable access. Maybe mount the screen to a hinged panel (ala garage door opener, only use actuators) and have a hidden storage area.

Definitely want to look at blind options for those screen-killing windows......
Lots of potential with that room though.
2 cents......
Yes, you're right about losing the projector distance but since I'm doing a family style theater (i.e. a sectional with one row of seating) I won't really miss the extra length.

Your description of mounting the floorstanding speakers is basically what my first CI was going to do. I'm planning blackout drapes over those windows (architect pretty much insisted they go in). The hinged panel idea is clever. :)


Never stick speakers designed for free standing use in holes cut in walls. get speakers designed for inwall use.

I think I would design front of your dreams and have it built. that is a LOT of wasted space and is a limiting factor for screen size. May be an issue for a 2:35 aspect.
Yes, well since the original plan was to do speakers in the wall behind the sound transparent cloth I purchased the floorstanding Paradigm Studio 100's and CC-690 center to go back in there. I'm planning a 16:9 setup but I agree this setup does waste space. Besides, I really want the effect of the larger floorstanders as most in-walls I've heard just don't sound as full... I'd rather remove the wall than replace the speakers.

You unfortunately are in agreement with the advice I received from my dealer (i.e. to rip out the front wall) but considering the cost to do so I was hoping there would be a work-around.

Do you think by making the wall (both to the sides and below the screen) cut outs as large as possible I would be able to minimize the compromise to the sound quality coming from those big Studio 100's? In effect I could make the caverns big enough such that they would act like they were just sitting in the room freestanding?

This really is a big mess and this is the last time I'll let anyone take over my HT project! :(

I would rip up the front wall. Build a new wall closer to the foundation. Then build a false wall composed of screen and acoustically transparent fabric. This is a common way it is done with in this DIY forum. Bigmouth can show you a shot of how he did it. This is how I am doing it.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k181/mbgonzomd/IM004930.jpg

The "real" wall is covered with acoustical insulation and bass traps in the corners. Then a "false" wall is stick built. The screen is acoustically transparent so the speakers will go behind the screen. The area around the screen will be covered with black acoustically transparent fabric stretched over frames. The frames will be attached to the stick frame with velcro. Thus, everything will be easy to remove to access the speakers/sub. It will look like a "real" wall, but not interfere with sound.

Yes, you're right about losing the projector distance but since I'm doing a family style theater (i.e. a sectional with one row of seating) I won't really miss the extra length.

You unfortunately are in agreement with the advice I received from my dealer (i.e. to rip out the front wall) but considering the cost to do so I was hoping there would be a work-around.

Do you think by making the wall (both to the sides and below the screen) cut outs as large as possible I would be able to minimize the compromise to the sound quality coming from those big Studio 100's? In effect I could make the caverns big enough such that they would act like they were just sitting in the room freestanding?

This really is a big mess and this is the last time I'll let anyone take over my HT project! :(

So it's a family room. Stick the speakers on stands if they aren't already at ear level, put up a screen and projector and enjoy.

The cost and effort of making big enough CAVERNS, which includes lining all the backs of the caverns with acoustical treatment is about as much work as removing the wall and starting over in my opinion

The problem I would have with him simply placing his speakers in the room is they'd have to be at least 3 feet (much more really) off the wall or he'll deal with huge SBIR problems since they're large towers.

I think your best outcome choice would be to remove the sheetrock and turn it into a real AT false wall. Reframe it slightly to hold your screen and allow for your speakers to sit correctly within/behind it.

Or...you could get decent results by cutting holes in the sheetrock to more or less baffle-mount your speakers. The "holes" need to be cut so that the speakers JUST fit and have the speaker faces flush with the wall surface. Fill any void between the holes and the speakers with dense fiberglass. This would effectively raise the SBIR frequency to get the problem out of the way. IIRC, the 100s aren't ported in the rear so you don't have to worry about that at least...not sure about the center. This is different than sticking the speakers in a "cubby hole" which is a huge no-no like the others alluded to.

Dan

Extremely helpful comments from you all, thanks much... this just has me scratching my head that an expert (installs tens of HT's every year) with lots of qualifications would make this sort of mistake.

So it's a family room. Stick the speakers on stands if they aren't already at ear level, put up a screen and projector and enjoy.
I'm not sure why my choice of seating diminishes the authenticity of my theater or reduces the value of quality sound (in my dedicated home theater)? Must one have theater style row seating to enjoy quality sound? Do I also need to spill soda and popcorn in the isles to deserve a quality theater experience? :p

Thanks mbgonzomd, that does appear to be the way to go if I decide to rip out the wall and start fresh. Thanks very much for the advice.

I think your best outcome choice would be to remove the sheetrock and turn it into a real AT false wall. Reframe it slightly to hold your screen and allow for your speakers to sit correctly within/behind it.
I think the original CI's plan was to cut out large sections of the drywall to create those caverns... it sounds to me like people think that no matter the size of the "cavern" I can manage to achieve I'm still going to have compromised sound quality. That doesn't sound like an attractive prospect.

Or...you could get decent results by cutting holes in the sheetrock to more or less baffle-mount your speakers. The "holes" need to be cut so that the speakers JUST fit and have the speaker faces flush with the wall surface. Fill any void between the holes and the speakers with dense fiberglass. This would effectively raise the SBIR frequency to get the problem out of the way. IIRC, the 100s aren't ported in the rear so you don't have to worry about that at least...not sure about the center. This is different than sticking the speakers in a "cubby hole" which is a huge no-no like the others alluded to.
That's an interesting idea if the "cubby" approach is fundamentally flawed. You're correct that the towers and the center are not ported so neither have that issue to contend with. So the idea is to frame-up the speakers into the wall tightly and basically install it like an in-wall speaker would be mounted? Do you think that would require special treatment to the wall around and behind those speakers? Attractive idea if it would work...

At this point expense and time are less of a concern than getting it right... it would be ridiculous to have a poorly designed dedicated home theater when I have an 8000 sq/ft brand new home. Huge mess... :o

I may consider hiring a consultant to help fix this disaster but I have to admit my confidence in expert advice has been shaken. Any recommendations on someone that really knows this stuff would be appreciated.

Any further comments are appreciated as well.

Thanks again

Just my two cents: if getting it right is your main concern, and by that you mean not compromising anything, acoustics or otherwise, I would pull all the plaster off that wall down to bare framing - treat the foundation wall with Linacoustic, and use the false wall framing for an AT front wall. It should cost you basically nothing to pull the plaster off and leave the framing. You have a perfect setup for a nice front AT false wall, it's just that the plaster is in the way. It's not just that the speakers performance is changed if you baffle mount them, it is also that your front wall will be one big reflective surface, and you will need to treat that surface with absorption that looks good, and even then it looks like you treated the front wall because the treatments are visible. With the plaster gone, you can put your fronts and sub(s) behind the false wall, and If you get an AT screen, the center can go back there also, for a totally clean look. It will be easy to move the electrical to terminate behind the wall for your sub(s). When you get down to it, there is very little difference between removing large amounts of plaster vs removing all of it. Just my take on it. I went with a "false wall" (it's a little more complicated than that, but you don't need the story now), and I am thrilled with it, it has so many advantages. PS: if you get an AT screen, you will not regret it in my opinion.

Just my two cents: if getting it right is your main concern, and by that you mean not compromising anything, acoustics or otherwise, I would pull all the plaster off that wall down to bare framing - treat the foundation wall with Linacoustic, and use the false wall framing for an AT front wall. It should cost you basically nothing to pull the plaster off and leave the framing. You have a perfect setup for a nice front AT false wall, it's just that the plaster is in the way. It's not just that the speakers performance is changed if you baffle mount them, it is also that your front wall will be one big reflective surface, and you will need to treat that surface with absorption that looks good, and even then it looks like you treated the front wall because the treatments are visible. With the plaster gone, you can put your fronts and sub(s) behind the false wall, and If you get an AT screen, the center can go back there also, for a totally clean look. It will be easy to move the electrical to terminate behind the wall for your sub(s). When you get down to it, there is very little difference between removing large amounts of plaster vs removing all of it. Just my take on it. I went with a "false wall" (it's a little more complicated than that, but you don't need the story now), and I am thrilled with it, it has so many advantages. PS: if you get an AT screen, you will not regret it in my opinion.
That makes a great deal of sense to me and I think that's going to be the best option. Doing things they way you've suggested will also minimize the cost to fix the problem. Thanks a lot for the suggestion!

Suppose I'd remove all the sheetrock down to the bare framing and line the foundation wall with duct insulation (Linacoustic) as you suggested. I'd then cover the entire framed AT wall with AT cloth. I'd then mount a standard Carada BW 120" screen in the center. That would reduce reflections from hard surfaces in the front (except the screen itself which shouldn't reflect as much as drywall) to a minimum and would also closely mimic the effect of a full AT wall - with the speakers behind it. I could also apply bass traps to those corners behind the AT screen.

I've done some looking around at the AT screens and it seems the really good ones that minimize acoustic problems (with speakers behind them) and reduce moiré effects (like the Stewart MicroperfX2) are approaching $10k (and still aren't perfect).

It seems that may be a pretty decent compromise that results in decent sound environment and isn't exorbitantly expensive? What do you think?

Also, if anyone has links to a theater with AT wall construction I'd appreciate it.

You can see a bunch of AT false front walls here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769702

I went with a total minimalist AT front wall, my thread is here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=881547

I would look closely at a SMX AT screen (that is what I have), it has been argued by some that it out-performs a Screen Research screen at significantly less cost:
http://www.smxscreen.com/

Oh yeah, where is your equipment going to be? With a false wall, you might have room in a front corner for your equipment rack, with an opaque panel faced with the same AT material, it would blend right in, plus a panel on hinges that opens in the opposite corner for access to the speakers/equipment behind the wall.

Edit: Also - once the drywall is gone, you will no longer be limited in what screen size and shape you go with - another bonus. And yes, if the rest of the wall is AT, even with a solid screen, it will still be significantly better than a drywall wall. If one or more of the vertical 2x4's of the false wall framing is in the way of something - just knock it out of there. This is not a load bearing wall (I assume - from looking at the plans), and the AT false front is a feather compared to the weight of drywall.

You can see a bunch of AT false front walls here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=769702

I went with a total minimalist AT front wall, my thread is here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=881547

I would look closely at a SMX AT screen (that is what I have), it has been argued by some that it out-performs a Screen Research screen at significantly less cost:
http://www.smxscreen.com/
Great links, very helpful... thanks once more. :)


Oh yeah, where is your equipment going to be? With a false wall, you might have room in a front corner for your equipment rack, with an opaque panel faced with the same AT material, it would blend right in, plus a panel on hinges that opens in the opposite corner for access to the speakers/equipment behind the wall.
If you see the plans I have a AV rack built in to the right of the screen (as you're facing it), this allows access to the rear of my equipment. On the plans you'll also notice a door that opens up into that AV access area... it's going to be a hidden door that's disguised as a section of bookshelf (which will match the AV rack bookshelf). Luckily I had the architect design those features into the HT before the first CI got a hold of the project. Should be cool as I'm adding some low voltage lighting in the bookshelves.

Edit: Also - once the drywall is gone, you will no longer be limited in what screen size and shape you go with - another bonus. And yes, if the rest of the wall is AT, even with a solid screen, it will still be significantly better than a drywall wall. If one or more of the vertical 2x4's of the false wall framing is in the way of something - just knock it out of there. This is not a load bearing wall (I assume - from looking at the plans), and the AT false front is a feather compared to the weight of drywall.
That's true, I could expand beyond 120" ;) My seating row will be back about 15' so I can probably handle a slightly larger screen.

You're quite correct the wall was added after the structural framing was complete... I can do whatever is needed with it. I have no idea why the electrical was placed in the front wall like that but clearly it can be removed or moved into the rear for the Servo 15.... if it'll fit.

One other little detail I haven’t mentioned... :o

We had the floor installed as a riser:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/506/TheaterEntrance1.jpg

I have to take blame/credit for this decision.... first I wanted a nice step-up entrance into the theater to define the separation from it and the bar. Second, I wanted to be able to run cables and power under the floor and have them pop-up through the floor (where needed) and finally I thought it would get it up off of that dead cement floor. Oh, and if I decided to go to row seating sometime in the future I could create a second tier by simply cutting the floor and removing the front section of the riser.

This shows the riser while the carpenters were building it:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/506/Riser1.jpg

Notice the riser floor (or rather under it) will be accessible via the AV access room. The rockers/plasterers went nuts and finished the back of that AV rack but they weren't supposed to, it'll be cut out for access to the AV equipment and under the riser. The opening you see is where the second bookshelf and hidden door will be built by the finish carpenter. It will appear to be a wall with built in bookshelves when it's done.

You obviously put a good deal of time and effort into this project, and I am sure it has been frustrating dealing with your CI's. But personally I think you are in very good shape, all the major construction is done, it just needs a little more effort and you will have a great theater to enjoy for years. You are at the end of the race, the goal line is in sight. The raised floor is considered by many to be a bonus for bass transferal, I went the other way - using multiple high output subs in a brute force way. You could go with bass transducers attached to the underside of the sub-floor if you decide you like that effect, but that is for a later day. Many people have gone with AT false fronts, and you will get all the advice you need here. I am going to put another plug in here for a SMX screen, I am very happy with it, and it makes so many problems go away.

Thanks usualsuspects, your comments have been a huge help getting me focused again. I can tell you've experienced some of the anxiety I'm going through right now. :)

You're right the goal line is in sight! It was just really bad timing to have the original CI bail right before project completion (especially as I'm trying to manage the completion of the rest of the project as well). The good news is the carpenters, electricians, rockers etc. are still all here to help and they are great guys. I'm sure they will pitch in to give me a hand getting this fixed. I knew I could turn to AVSForum members to help me through this, thanks to you all for the suggestions.

I was thinking about the bass transducers, they seem like a cool idea. The installers that work for the new CI suggested I think about doing a couple subs right underneath the seating as well... that could be interesting too. :cool:

I'm still considering the SMX screen, thanks for bringing that option to my attention!

If you can believe it my wife convinced me to finally get rid of the 3 big bails of OC 703 I had in my garage (sitting there for a couple years from a project building some bass traps in my old HT). I never should have given it away! :eek: