SM1 will have 24bit Dolby THD, but the original audio source was 16bit.

SM2 will have 24bit Dolby THD from a 24bit master

SM3 will have 24bit Dolby THD and 16bit LPCM.

This just made my day and makes me even more excited for the trilogy.

I saw that and was very excited to see Sony offering full resolution audio. However, what is with the up-converted bit depth for the first Spiderman? What is the utility in doing that? Was the audio remixed and/or remastered?

So all the BR players (except the Panny) are going to down-convert to 16bit PCM? That sucks!
I would be nice if they would have included the DDTHD processing in the players.
Sad!
Denon, please hurry with your new player!

whats the diff between 24 thd and 16pcm?

whats the diff between 24 thd and 16pcm?

I can't wait for my ears to tell me.

/PCM or TrueHD, I cannot decide.
/ Bring it on. :cool:

whats the diff between 24 thd and 16pcm?

16-bit PCM is uncompressed audio with 96dB of dynamic range and 65,000 possible values or points of resolution. 24-bit THD is losslessly compressed with a theoretical dynamic range of 144dB and 16,700,000 possible values.

24-bit has 50% greater dynamic range and 256 times the resolution of 16-bit. These differences aren't fully obtainable with current hardware, so the real-world differences between them are much less dramatic than the numbers suggest, but they are significant nonetheless.

why waste space on the disc with the PCM track?

So all the BR players (except the Panny) are going to down-convert to 16bit PCM? That sucks!
I would be nice if they would have included the DDTHD processing in the players.
Sad!
Denon, please hurry with your new player!

what are you talking about ? notthing is going to be downcoverted....

Marek

why waste space on the disc with the PCM track?
There will be no wasted space. BD's specs ensure that on most titles. Some of the Spidey movies are little longer than 2 hours, but there is still space there.

Some technical specs that may be of interest.

1. For a two hour movie using the superbit approach.
2. Using CBR LPCM 5.1 24/48 for easier calculations. DTS-MA/TruHD can improve HD DVD video rates.
3. BD video rates are maxed regardless. HD DVD video rates cannot be maxed regardless.

LPCM ~ CBR ＠6.9 Mbps = 6.21GB
ACV/VC-1 ~ CBR @40Mbps = 35.16 GB (BD) / CBR @23.34Mbps = 20.52GB (HD DVD)
HD DVD w/ TruHD ~ ABR @3.4 Mbps = 3.06GB / Video ~ CBR @26.84 = 23.59GB

BD50 = 41.37GB ~ 8.63GB available for extras
HD DVD30 = 26.73GB ~ 3.27GB available for extras
HD DVD30 (w/TruHD) = 26.65GB ~ 3.35GB available for extras

Even with the superbit approach there seems to be quite a bit left for extras or additional lossless tracks. Please check my math for errors.

Rock on!

So all the BR players (except the Panny) are going to down-convert to 16bit PCM? That sucks!
I would be nice if they would have included the DDTHD processing in the players.
Sad!
Denon, please hurry with your new player!

anyone else confused here?

I say again, what's the point in a 16bit PCM track when there's also a 24 bit lossless True HD track on the disc? Why not use the extra space for higher video bit rate instead?

I say again, what's the point in a 16bit PCM track when there's also a 24 bit lossless True HD track on the disc? Why not use the extra space for higher video bit rate instead?

Hi cybersoga,

It has nothing to do with space. The reason is there are several first gen Blu ray players that do not have the ability to deccode the True HD track and it cannot be added via a firmware upgrade. While every Blu Ray player can use the PCM tracks. This is all because the BDA could not get their ducks in a row when it came to advanced audio support. Can anyone say DTS HD MA. ;)
We're going to see the double use of lossless audio for the next little while do to this situation.

Hi cybersoga,

It has nothing to do with space. The reason is there are several first gen Blu ray players that do not have the ability to deccode the True HD track and it cannot be added via a firmware upgrade. While every Blu Ray player can use the PCM tracks. This is all because the BDA could not get their ducks in a row when it came to advanced audio support. Can anyone say DTS HD MA. ;)
We're going to see the double use of lossless audio for the next little while do to this situation.

HD-DVD is no better, all True HD discs have also had Dolby Digital + tracks. I think it's a waste of space having more than one audio track.

And AGAIN... some players cannot decode some tracks. So what do you want them to do, say FU to the people with those players? Yeah, that would go over well.

HD-DVD is no better, all True HD discs have also had Dolby Digital + tracks. I think it's a waste of space having more than one audio track.

And again, even with lossless full rez audio and video bitrates maxed there is usually room for multiple lossless audio tracks. You'd rather it be empty space or do you really dig supplements?

Ideally every player would fully decode up to 7.1 DTS-MA IMO. That includes a decent 1.5mbps core track and the full lossless track in one. Almost everyone would win in this situation.

The sound might be loss-less but the video is not, so every bit of available space should be used for video IMO.

So all the BR players (except the Panny) are going to down-convert to 16bit PCM? That sucks!
I would be nice if they would have included the DDTHD processing in the players.
Sad!
Denon, please hurry with your new player!


Which Panny and what are you talkin about?

And again, even with lossless full rez audio and video bitrates maxed there is usually room for multiple lossless audio tracks. You'd rather it be empty space or do you really dig supplements?

Ideally every player would fully decode up to 7.1 DTS-MA IMO. That includes a decent 1.5mbps core track and the full lossless track in one. Almost everyone would win in this situation.


Yeah but DTS decided to twiddle their balls and wait until the 11th hour to get something together for HD...

Frankly, their ineptitude makes me wish that'd they just go the way of the dodo.

Hi cybersoga,

It has nothing to do with space. The reason is there are several first gen Blu ray players that do not have the ability to deccode the True HD track and it cannot be added via a firmware upgrade. While every Blu Ray player can use the PCM tracks. This is all because the BDA could not get their ducks in a row when it came to advanced audio support. Can anyone say DTS HD MA. ;)
We're going to see the double use of lossless audio for the next little while do to this situation.

Yep, betting they mostly fade out uncompressed over time and don't want to piss off too many people. J6P doesn't understand the concept of "Uncompressed PCM". They understand "Dolby" so Dolby TrueHD is going to go over better with consumers.

Just my thoughts, no facts...

The sound might be loss-less but the video is not, so every bit of available space should be used for video IMO.

There isn't enough space on the discs to dramatically change the video.

The sound might be loss-less but the video is not, so every bit of available space should be used for video IMO.

I disagree. This is not a 15mbps vs 35mbps debate. Let's say Spiderman movies will all be in the mid to high 30s constant, you are not going to see ANY perceivable advantage by utilizing the 6gigs or so of space saved for PCM. So Sony has to weigh in what is the right thing to do: Screw the Samsung users (many of whom are early adopters) or use eg. 40mbps instead of 35mbps.

I don't care about PCM. I have the PS3, but I don't think having the PCM hurts the video transfers at all.

Now, let's say if Sony decided to put PCM and True HD on Lawrence of Arabia on a single 50gb disc, then I might have issues with it.

HD-DVD is no better, all True HD discs have also had Dolby Digital + tracks. I think it's a waste of space having more than one audio track.

And the point is ALL HD DVD players decode TrueHD.

To the original point since I have the PS3 the options are great. Nice to do some comparisons with the tracks. Hopefully the next step is DTS-HD MA AND TrueHD tracks 24/48 :D

Hi cybersoga,

It has nothing to do with space. The reason is there are several first gen Blu ray players that do not have the ability to deccode the True HD track and it cannot be added via a firmware upgrade. While every Blu Ray player can use the PCM tracks. This is all because the BDA could not get their ducks in a row when it came to advanced audio support. Can anyone say DTS HD MA. ;)
We're going to see the double use of lossless audio for the next little while do to this situation.

if that's the case, why not drop truehd in favor of pcm (at least initially until the install base goes up) and add more content to the movie? i know there's some on here who think extras are incarnation of evil itself, but on the majority of bd disks ive watched there's hardly any extras on disk. there's a couple movies i want on bd (i only have 3 compared to 20 hd) but i cant see myself getting disks w/o extras, even if its in sd

There will be no wasted space. BD's specs ensure that on most titles. Some of the Spidey movies are little longer than 2 hours, but there is still space there.

Some technical specs that may be of interest.

1. For a two hour movie using the superbit approach.
2. Using CBR LPCM 5.1 24/48 for easier calculations. DTS-MA/TruHD can improve HD DVD video rates.
3. BD video rates are maxed regardless. HD DVD video rates cannot be maxed regardless.

LPCM ~ CBR ＠6.9 Mbps = 6.21GB
ACV/VC-1 ~ CBR @40Mbps = 35.16 GB (BD) / CBR @23.34Mbps = 20.52GB (HD DVD)
HD DVD w/ TruHD ~ ABR @3.4 Mbps = 3.06GB / Video ~ CBR @26.84 = 23.59GB

BD50 = 41.37GB ~ 8.63GB available for extras
HD DVD30 = 26.73GB ~ 3.27GB available for extras
HD DVD30 (w/TruHD) = 26.65GB ~ 3.35GB available for extras

Even with the superbit approach there seems to be quite a bit left for extras or additional lossless tracks. Please check my math for errors.

Rock on!


Is this accurate?

And the point is ALL HD DVD players decode TrueHD.




I have the 360 addon. I don't get 5.1 True HD.

if that's the case, why not drop truehd in favor of pcm (at least initially until the install base goes up) and add more content to the movie?

Because the general PS3 user sees the perceived value of True HD over PCM. Many don't know what PCM even means. Dolby True HD pretty much spells itself out. Not only is it efficient but it is also a selling attraction.

can't people who cannot get TrueHD get the native 640kbps track when selecting TrueHD?

i'm not sure if HD-DVD would get some form of DD+ track if they select TrueHD if they only have an optical out and no HDMI.

with BD, there's no wasted space if the video bitrate is maxed and there are still plenty of room to throw in audio tracks. and again, for those who can't decode TrueHD on their BD players the inclusion of PCM will be very welcome to them.

Because the general PS3 user sees the perceived value of True HD over PCM. Many don't know what PCM even means. Dolby True HD pretty much spells itself out. Not only is it efficient but it is also a selling attraction.

what perceived value? the average person who has a ps3 uses it for games, and more than likely doesnt have a receiver hooked up to it to even get hd audio? the average ps3 user who uses it for movies probably still thinks they need a hdmi 1.3 receiver to get truehd and is probably using dd 5.1 w/o even knowing or caring about hd audio.

so where the perceived value at comparing pcm to truehd?

Although I think all 3 movies sucked, this is why I like blu-ray more. The attention to lossless audio!

Although I think all 3 movies sucked, this is why I like blu-ray more. The attention to lossless audio!

While I like lossless audio and find it a treat that still can't get me to support blu-ray! I guess DD+ with high end PQ will have to do :) HD-DVD!!!

I guess I will have to watch Spiderman in dvd but they lost my sale since I am not going to buy the dvd just rent.

While I like lossless audio and find it a treat that still can't get me to support blu-ray! I guess DD+ with high end PQ will have to do :) HD-DVD!!!

I guess I will have to watch Spiderman in dvd but they lost my sale since I am not going to buy the dvd just rent.


So take your trolling a$$ back to the HD-DVD forum.

What I'd like to know - will all of the Spidey titles have uncompressed PCM tracks? I'm one of those poor bastards with a BR player that will not decode TrueHD.

So take your trolling a$$ back to the HD-DVD forum.

What I'd like to know - will all of the Spidey titles have uncompressed PCM tracks? I'm one of those poor bastards with a BR player that will not decode TrueHD.

wow, the guy is accepting inferior specs to support his format.

Originally Posted by paidgeek
SM1 will have 24bit Dolby THD, but the original audio source was 16bit.

SM2 will have 24bit Dolby THD from a 24bit master

SM3 will have 24bit Dolby THD and 16bit LPCM..

This just made my day and makes me even more excited for the trilogy.

Why have a 24bit track from a 16bit source?

wow, the guy is accepting inferior specs to support his format.

if thats the kind of logic thats prevelant on that side then good god thats embarassing.

Although I am not a huge fan of 2, and 3 was a bit "emo" Spidey, i still enjoyed them and cant wait to see what they look and, now, sound like.

If a title has Dolby TrueHD then it also has a DD track for legacy support. I don't think the packaging on the box spefically mentions legacy support, but if you select TrueHD you will get 640kbs DD over the older opt/coax connections.

They are including PCM so some can still do lossless without TrueHD hardware. But I think at some point they will drop the uncompressed PCM for the following:
1. majority of installed BD players are PS3s which have TrueHD decoding
2. older standalones at profile 1.0 will be replaced with newer profile 1.1+ models that will most likely have TrueHD decoding.

And again, even with lossless full rez audio and video bitrates maxed there is usually room for multiple lossless audio tracks. You'd rather it be empty space or do you really dig supplements?

Ideally every player would fully decode up to 7.1 DTS-MA IMO. That includes a decent 1.5mbps core track and the full lossless track in one. Almost everyone would win in this situation.
That's Fox's thinking. Works for me, but I'm still waiting on a player that will give me the full Master Audio track.

Most would disagree with us because it isn't decoded now (I'm certain the PS3 will get it), but this way only one track is needed and it's the best lossless and the best lossy all in one. Leaves more room for extras. :o

Why have a 24bit track from a 16bit source?

It's just a matter of standardized archive procedures.

it's the best lossless and the best lossy all in one

Best. Some, including me, would disagree. If anything it's the worst lossless option.

Can't wait to hear the noobs who will still proclaim that the PCM track is better than TrueHD.

If you re-master a 16 bit track properly to 24 bits, there can be audible advantages.

See multi-channel mixes of the albums Roxy Music's Avalon and Dire Strait's Brothers In Arms where only 16 bit PCM copies of the original analog stems survived or could be found.

Before re-mixing took place they carefully upscaled the 16 bit stems to 24 bit/96 kHz (possibly even 192 kHz sampling). The results were that the new re-mastered albums sounded better than the originals even given 16 bit stems rather than the analog originals. Though, I can only imagine how good they would have sounded if the master recording could have been used.

I'm actually shocked that a fairly new movie like Spiderman was originally mastered at only 16 bits.

I´m sorry to bother you again Paidgeek, but can you tell us if the european releases will have 16 or 24 bit? Thanks.

I´m sorry to bother you again Paidgeek, but can you tell us if the european releases will have 16 or 24 bit? Thanks.

I asked same question if at least UK release will have same audio specs, let mi dig up answare from other forum... but I remember that he said yes with additional dubs..

Marek


here is my question

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=155426&postcount=1753

Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek
SM1 will have 24bit Dolby THD, but the original audio source was 16bit.

SM2 will have 24bit Dolby THD from a 24bit master

SM3 will have 24bit Dolby THD and 16bit LPCM.


will those AUDIO spec be same at least for UK edition ?

thank you in advance,
Marek

and here is answare :

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=155445&postcount=1756

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarekM
will those AUDIO spec be same at least for UK edition ?

thank you in advance,
Marek


Yes, but there will be some additional dubs as well.
__________________
SPE Blu-ray insider

The sound might be loss-less but the video is not, so every bit of available space should be used for video IMO.

Well, just throwing bits at the video has a point of diminshing returns. At some point the eye is just not going to see anymore improvement in resolution.