Been reading about this panasonic model a bit. And wondered what peoples experience was with it.

Can you record an HD signal in 16/9 ? I know it will be downconverted, but I do want the widescreen aspect intact.

Is the picture quality decent ?

Just wondering what the ups and downs are on this product.

Thanks for any input.

Hey,

This question has been answered in many other threads but to answer it in it's own thread, I have been extremely pleased with the performance of my EZ17 since applying the little tricks to avoid it's initial problems (i.e. turning clock set to off, DST to off and VSS to off) Have had no problems at all other than the usual glitches using these digital media recorders (finicky recorders spitting out certain brand DVDs!). I have not even bothered contacting Panasonic for their Bios update for mine since it is doing what I want.

To further answer your questions, yes, it records an HD 16:9 widescreen signal downconverted to SD res with excellent PQ. Blows away my analog recorders on analog cable. In my experience, recording in widescreen seems to depend on how your local affiliate encodes the picture to begin with. Panasonic states that DVD-RAM is to be used to record widescreen but I have been told that is only to maintain the widescreen flag. It seems to record widescreen on regular DVD-Rs for me. I am still learning the widescreen thing myself.

Despite others still reporting problems with the new Panasonics, for basic OTA timer recording, I have been very happy all Summer. Your experience may differ but I would reccommend them.

i use the very excellent dmr-es15 to record w/s discs. the only downside is that the recorded discs will look vertically stretched on a 4x3 tv. i think the only difference from the ez17 is the digital tuner which i dont care about cus im out here in the vermont woods, no sd or hd ota signals get up here. were lucky to get am radio. i also use toshiba dr2 to record up to 130 mins of anamorphic widescreen/letterboxed stuff.

Thanks for the info guys. I'm really leaning toward this unit. You've mentioned some problems with the media used. Whats the best brand of media in your experience ?

You mention using timer control, so this must be fone for timeshifting. Not clear on what you mean by turning off the clock set. Could you explain what this is ? From what I have read, it must not be that important.

One more thing. The DVD-Ram. This allows you to watch one recorded show while recording another. Is this right ?

I really appreciate the time taken to respond to my concerns. Thanks again.

Thanks for the info guys. I'm really leaning toward this unit. You've mentioned some problems with the media used. Whats the best brand of media in your experience ?

I use Sony DVD-Rs. They may not be THE best but they rate up there and they are the brand I found to work in ALL of my DVD recorders - allowing me to use them in any of my machines. Results vary as far as brands in different recorders but Sony works fine in the Panny as it does in my others so I haven't experimented with it.


You mention using timer control, so this must be fone for timeshifting. Not clear on what you mean by turning off the clock set. Could you explain what this is ? From what I have read, it must not be that important.

Yes, I use it strictly for timer recording. I am not interested in using it as an HD tuner/converter, DVD upscaler, etc. The menus are not intuitive and the buttons on the remote are not laid out optimally (I much prefer my Samsungs on these points) but for the little I need to interact with it to set my timer I am OK with it. Otherwise, it has not missed a recording yet and all with excellent PQ.

When I first hooked it up I had some problems with it missing timer settings. It was attributed by others on this forum as the DST or Daylight Savings Time bug. To be more clear, turning OFF Auto Clock Set (Set the time manually) and OFF Auto DST solved those initial problems. There was also a problem with it not correctly downmixing 5.1 channel surround sound into 2.0 stereo audio. The work around was found to be turning VSS or Virtual Surround Sound to OFF. Why they would have assumed I would want it to default to on is beyond me and I guess they have to apply it when down converting the TV signal BEFORE recording but it definitely affected the recording. There is now a Bios update available from Panasonic but they haven't posted it to their website. You have to call their customer support and log a support claim to have a CD mailed to you in a few weeks time. I haven't bothered since mine is working like I want. Maybe when the make it generally available on their website; like other models.


One more thing. The DVD-Ram. This allows you to watch one recorded show while recording another. Is this right ?

Yes, I believe this is accurate. I have never tried it myself. I strictly timer record; even on DVD-RAM.


I really appreciate the time taken to respond to my concerns. Thanks again.

I am glad I could help. To say I have been very happy with my Panny would be an understatement. I find people so quick to report problems on here that I felt somewhat compelled to stick up for the EZ17. While your usage may vary from mine and your results may differ, I think it is a great choice with features not found in other recorders.

When I first hooked it up I had some problems with it missing timer settings. It was attributed by others on this forum as the DST or Daylight Savings Time bug. To be more clear, turning OFF Auto Clock Set (Set the time manually) and OFF Auto DST solved those initial problems. The funny part about that is that wabjxo posted a link not long ago, which listed the Panasonic EZ series as being compatible with the new DST rules. Now that you have everything running properly, if you feel adventurous, try turning the auto clock back on and see if it no longer has problems. It may have been a case of faulty data being sent out by the local PBS station.

The funny part about that is that wabjxo posted a link not long ago, which listed the Panasonic EZ series as being compatible with the new DST rules. Now that you have everything running properly, if you feel adventurous, try turning the auto clock back on and see if it no longer has problems. It may have been a case of faulty data being sent out by the local PBS station.


I actually can't turn auto clock back on as my local PBS station was flooded in Katrina (I live in the suburbs of New Orleans) and they are not broadcasting the time while they lease a tower from another station and rebuild their facilities. I actually had auto clock off but DST on; which was causing me the problems. I had forgotten about the new DST changes and was unaware of the bugs in recorders. Turning it off did solve the problems though. Have made dozens of recordings with no problems this Summer. Looking forward to using the EZ17 full force when the TV schedule kicks off this Fall.

On a side, I actually like having autoclock off, as my Samsung analog recorders were picking up all kinds of weird times from many different cable channels and I missed some recording b/c of that. Since I could not set it to my previously known to be good local PBS station I turned those off too. As long as I don't forget DST changes, I find I can keep my clock set very accurately opposed to it setting itself; despite the convenience.

At any rate, I could go to the trouble of getting the patch from Panasonic but I only wanted mine for timer recording and it is working fine so I probably won't bother unless they make it easier and post it to their websire.

The funny part about that is that wabjxo posted a link not long ago, which listed the Panasonic EZ series as being compatible with the new DST rules. Now that you have everything running properly, if you feel adventurous, try turning the auto clock back on and see if it no longer has problems. It may have been a case of faulty data being sent out by the local PBS station.

Kelson, I have an EZ-17 scheduled to be delivered tomorrow, and so I should be able to give this a try.

HVG, thanks for all your posts on the EZ-17. They will help me get it up and running. Unlike you, I purchased it to do double duty. I want it to record ATSC programs from Comcast cable (the clear QAM channels anyway) on DVD-RAM to H-S dub onto my Panasonic E-500 to watch on my Mits RP TV, and to use as a ATSC tuner for my SD TV that only has an analog tuner.

I'll report back my experiences using this 1st gen ATSC recorder.

Kelson, I have an EZ-17 scheduled to be delivered tomorrow, and so I should be able to give this a try.I admit, against my better judgement, I have been sorely tempted to buy one of these just to play and see what the state of digital OTA is in philly. I was going to justify it to myself as a secondary recorder to accomodate all the conflict recordings I have to do during the season. But alas, my daughter ships off to college this year which in one fell swoop eliminates my need for conflict recording (as well as dramatically lowering my water bill).

Although I'll be using it primarily for cable, I'll probably check out digital OTA for the heck of it. Not sure what kind of signal I'll get as we are about 20 miles from the Roxborough transmitter towers.

RG,
I like to check out antennaweb.org from time to time and see how they rate the reception for me. For the longest time they showed the digital signals out of philly would be more difficult to receive than the analog and I would need a bigger antenna with booster. No surprise since they were broadcasting digital at minimal power.

That apppears to have changed in the past months. Now the digital signals are rated to be easier to receive than the analog -- they must have finally boosted transmission power or constructed some new towers. I already get excellent analog reception so when I saw that I started getting itchy for something, less expensive than a new TV, with a digital tuner so I could play with the digital.

If you are 20mi from Roxborough, you should get excellent signal. Eagle games on FOX should look really clear. Let me know if you get it hooked up before the preseason game on Monday.

Received the EZ-17 yesterday in good condition with all the accessories (more on that later).

I have it connected to my Comcast analog/clear QAM cable (no STB) with output to a small 13-in SD TV.

First impressions:

Recorder entered setup immediately upon powering up. Setup asked the usual questions before asking to set the clock automatically. It scanned for a channel with the time code with audio on so that I could hear which channel it was tuned to. Stopped scanning at the PBS station (WHYY, channel 12 in Philly). I waited for a while for the time to be set, but it seemed to be taking a long time, so I exited out.

Next it did a scan for channels, analog first, then digital. It appears to have found all the digital channels that I get on my Mits RP HDTV.

I set the clock manually (with DST OFF), and went looking for the VSS setting to make sure it was off. Found it, and it was already off by default (not sure why others have found it set to "natural").

Did a channel scan with the remote. Analog channels tuned in with no delay, while digital channels had a 2-3 sec delay (similar to what I see with my Samsung digital tuner). All the channels came in with a good to excellent PQ. Analog channels were OK (similar to the Mits), but digital channels were excellent. Did not see any dropout, but didn't stay long on any 1 channel.

Menu is OK, but very different from my other Panasonic recorders. Some similarity to my Panasonic DVD players.

Set it up to record 8 half-hour programs today (all digital) in LP mode to check PQ at LP on DVD-RAM. I will check the PQ on my Mits, and I will try to H-S dub onto the HDD on my Panasonic E-500.

The reason I commented on the condition of the EZ-17 is that I purchased it on the Best Buy Outlet Store on eBay. It was described as in "good condition" and tested as functioning OK. All the accessories were included, but it was shipped in the original box and not double-packed (I expected this). When I unpacked the recorder I was surprised in what good condition it was in. There was not a mark on it, and it appeared like new.

Bottom line -- Best Buy is blowing out the Panasonic EZ17 and EZ27 recorders on eBay (also found some on Overstock), and the prices are about one-half retail. I got mine for $76 plus SH&tax -- not a bad deal. If anyone is interested, check out eBay for the BB outlet store.

I'll post more impressions as I use this baby more -- but as of now I am quite happy. More later.

Cheers.

Received the EZ-17 yesterday in good condition with all the accessories (more on that later).

I have it connected to my Comcast analog/clear QAM cable (no STB) with output to a small 13-in SD TV.

First impressions:

Recorder entered setup immediately upon powering up. Setup asked the usual questions before asking to set the clock automatically. It scanned for a channel with the time code with audio on so that I could hear which channel it was tuned to. Stopped scanning at the PBS station (WHYY, channel 12 in Philly). I waited for a while for the time to be set, but it seemed to be taking a long time, so I exited out.

Next it did a scan for channels, analog first, then digital. It appears to have found all the digital channels that I get on my Mits RP HDTV.

I set the clock manually (with DST OFF), and went looking for the VSS setting to make sure it was off. Found it, and it was already off by default (not sure why others have found it set to "natural").

Did a channel scan with the remote. Analog channels tuned in with no delay, while digital channels had a 2-3 sec delay (similar to what I see with my Samsung digital tuner). All the channels came in with a good to excellent PQ. Analog channels were OK (similar to the Mits), but digital channels were excellent. Did not see any dropout, but didn't stay long on any 1 channel.

Menu is OK, but very different from my other Panasonic recorders. Some similarity to my Panasonic DVD players.

Set it up to record 8 half-hour programs today (all digital) in LP mode to check PQ at LP on DVD-RAM. I will check the PQ on my Mits, and I will try to H-S dub onto the HDD on my Panasonic E-500.

The reason I commented on the condition of the EZ-17 is that I purchased it on the Best Buy Outlet Store on eBay. It was described as in "good condition" and tested as functioning OK. All the accessories were included, but it was shipped in the original box and not double-packed (I expected this). When I unpacked the recorder I was surprised in what good condition it was in. There was not a mark on it, and it appeared like new.

Bottom line -- Best Buy is blowing out the Panasonic EZ17 and EZ27 recorders on eBay (also found some on Overstock), and the prices are about one-half retail. I got mine for $76 plus SH&tax -- not a bad deal. If anyone is interested, check out eBay for the BB outlet store.

I'll post more impressions as I use this baby more -- but as of now I am quite happy. More later.

Cheers.

Hey,

I was wondering how your recorder was working recording the unencrypted QAM off of cable? I just purchased one of the BB Outlet Stores units (thanks for the heads up - paid $69 plus S&H/Tax but looks like word is getting out now) as a second recorder and was going to try hooking it up to cable to tune in my locals in QAM as well as analog cable channels.

My Samsung R-130 started flaking out and spitting out discs to often to be trusted so I hooked the S-Video out from my digital cable box to my current EZ17. While it still records a nice picture, especially in LP mode, I found it only to be on par with my other analog recorders in XP or SP mode; even with the clearer digital signal. I still plan on using it to record cable only channels that way, in space saving LP mode, but I would rather record my locals from the antenna.

I have heard that unencrypted QAM channels on cable don't always look as good as their OTA signal. I guess I'll find out but was wondering your impressions and if it tuned the QAM channels as well as analog by simply setting the tuner to cable rather than broadcast? I wanted to avoid getting any more antenna equip., boosters, dist. amps, etc. as well as have another means to record cable channels.

The clear (unencrypted) QAM channels on my Comcast cable record very well. I am quite happy with the PQ, even in LP (4-hr) mode. I have not been able to compare it to OTA digital channels because we live too far from the broadcast towers to receive a signal using an indoor rabbit ears antenna, and I have no desire to purchase a better one (or an outdoor one) to test this out.

Yes, by setting the tuner to cable, all the "clear" channels, digital and analog, were received. The digital channels look a heck of a lot better than the analog ones. I am quite happy with the EZ-17, especially at the price I paid. It actually does double duty, both as an analog/digital DVDR, and as a digital tuner for my SD TV. The price was definitely right.

This is exactly what I have been looking for! I've wanted a QAM capable STB and was looking at the Samsung, but the thing that turned me off about it was that it didn't have a standard NTSC tuner. But then I found about this, it fit pretty much all of my criteria! I am looking just basically to use it as a basic cable/QAM tuner and occasionally record both of those too.

How has everyone's luck been with using DVD+RW media? Any particular brand work better than others? I have some 4X RiData DVD+RW that has seemed to work with almost anything I've used and it would be great if I could use it with this device also!

I just finished winning one off eBay for $45.88 + shipping!!!! It doesn't have any AV cables or the remote (it just includes the DVD Recorder & power cable). The remote really doesn't matter to me because I have a Logitech Harmony and I looked up in their database and saw this DVD Recorder! Sweet!! :)

This is exactly what I have been looking for! I've wanted a QAM capable STB and was looking at the Samsung, but the thing that turned me off about it was that it didn't have a standard NTSC tuner. But then I found about this, it fit pretty much all of my criteria! I am looking just basically to use it as a basic cable/QAM tuner and occasionally record both of those too.

How has everyone's luck been with using DVD+RW media? Any particular brand work better than others? I have some 4X RiData DVD+RW that has seemed to work with almost anything I've used and it would be great if I could use it with this device also!

I just finished winning one off eBay for $45.88 + shipping!!!! It doesn't have any AV cables or the remote (it just includes the DVD Recorder & power cable). The remote really doesn't matter to me because I have a Logitech Harmony and I looked up in their database and saw this DVD Recorder! Sweet!! :)

I got one off fLeaBay too... to use in my bedroom with an HD-ready tv. The 3tuner feature is nice. Can flip through all the NTSC-SD, ATSC-HD via QAM, and NTSC-DT via QAM from my cable company with no problems, all integrated seamlessly.
Please be aware, the only way to properly record a picture in 16:9 format, is with DVD-RAM media. It even states it as such right in the manual. I haven't actually been able to record anything yet, but other posts here will give you a good idea.
Also, if you didn't already know, this unit does not output HD resolutions. It downconverts to outout at 480p.

I got one off fLeaBay too... to use in my bedroom with an HD-ready tv. The 3tuner feature is nice. Can flip through all the NTSC-SD, ATSC-HD via QAM, and NTSC-DT via QAM from my cable company with no problems, all integrated seamlessly.
Please be aware, the only way to properly record a picture in 16:9 format, is with DVD-RAM media. It even states it as such right in the manual. I haven't actually been able to record anything yet, but other posts here will give you a good idea.
Also, if you didn't already know, this unit does not output HD resolutions. It downconverts to outout at 480p.

I can't believe how cheap these things are going for off "fleaBay". I downloaded the manual and read that you need DVD-RAM's to record in 16:9, which is fine I found a Panasonic 5-pack of DVD-RAM from CC for a decent price. (BB had it cheaper but none in stock at any stores near to me) So I went ahead and set up the in-store pick-up so I'll get it in the next few days. I saw that it doesn't output HD resolutions but for the difference in price (between the Panny and Samsung QAM/ATSC tuner only), all of the other things it can do and that it's only going on a Olevia 26" Widescreen LCD TV in my bedroom I can live without it being "True HD". Now if this were for a much bigger screen then I would want full HD, well for my bigger screen I have a HD Cable Box from my Cable Co. The reason I didn't bother get one for the bedroom they wanted nearly $10 more a month just for an extra HD Cable Box?! I thought that was completely insane.

I take it that the Panasonic brand DVD-RAM discs that I am buying probably would work best with this DVD Recorder since it's also Panasonic? :)

I take it that the Panasonic brand DVD-RAM discs that I am buying probably would work best with this DVD Recorder since it's also Panasonic?

That's what I would think. Like I said though, I haven't been able to use the recording functions as of yet. I need to get some RAM discs myself. Totally forgot about getting some till now.

Glad I caught up with this topic! I have been researching this product, as well. Has anybody tried out recording on a dl disc? Anything peculiar to report?

When you guys say it only records 16:9 to dvd-ram, what exactly does that mean? Is it recording anamorphic 16:9 to dvd-ram or just letterboxed 16:9 in an sd frame? So what happens if you try to record 16:9 to dvd-r?

This product family also seems to be touting "hybrid vbr" recording as a spec. feature. Does anybody know if this is any different from how other dvd recorders are doing it? Is there any way to assess the benefit to pq, as a result of this feature?

Glad I caught up with this topic! I have been researching this product, as well. Has anybody tried out recording on a dl disc? Anything peculiar to report?

When you guys say it only records 16:9 to dvd-ram, what exactly does that mean? Is it recording anamorphic 16:9 to dvd-ram or just letterboxed 16:9 in an sd frame? So what happens if you try to record 16:9 to dvd-r?

This product family also seems to be touting "hybrid vbr" recording as a spec. feature. Does anybody know if this is any different from how other dvd recorders are doing it? Is there any way to assess the benefit to pq, as a result of this feature?


I have tried using TDK DVD+R DLs in mine. I was concerned the first time as it seemed to hang up the recorder, and spit out the disc, at the layer change. Two more discs have recorded just fine so who knows why the first failed. I have not gone back and watched them straight thru to see what happens at the layer change but spot checking seemed fine.

It will record 16:9 to DVD-R but will only preserve the widescreen flag, to tell your TV to stretch the picture, on DVD-RAM. Not a problem if your TV can maually stretch the picture. I only have a 4:3 set, everything appears letterboxed but I see the full width of the frame.

The VBR feature, called FR mode on the Panny, is only available when timer recording. That way the recorder knows how long you intend to record and how much space is left on the disc. It calculates a "hybrid" BR based on this. While maybe not as good as a multiple pass, non-realtime encoding on a PC, it is better than being stuck with standard CBRs and can improve PQ by compressing less and allow you to fit a program to the space left on a disc or just a whole disc. I can't discern a difference between SP and LP modes on my 25" analog TV set but I use FR mode frequently to "fit" things to disc using the least possible compression.

Variable bit rate (VBR) actually has nothing to do with FR recording. VBR means that the bit rate will vary during the recording in an attempt to allocate more bits for fast-moving scenes, while allocating fewer bits for slow-moving scenes. This scheme will more efficiently allocate bits than a fixed bit rate recording.

Flexible recording (FR) sets the average bit rate for the recording based on the length of the recording, to maximize the PQ of the recording. FR is available for BOTH timer recordings and manual recordings.

Just to add a little more to RG's post. As far as I know, every recorder encodes using VBR. In addition Panasonic has a mode when recording to HDD or RAM they call "hybrid" VBR. This mode not only changes bitrate but also resolution in an attempt to provide an overall higher quality picture by also dropping resolution where not needed so it can apply even more bits where needed.

Most of us (probably all of us) with Panasonic HDD recorders turn this feature off because the consequence of recording in hybrid VBR is that you cannot high-speed dub the recording to DVD-R. It must be done in real time so that the recording can be re-encoded to a constant resolution to satisfy DVD video standards.

Thank you for the responses to my post. :)

So I'm confused now- is this Panasonic doing real "vbr" or FR via cbr, then? I guess the "vbr" nomenclature is a source of confusion, in that even cbr has some degree of vbr to it, but it still is not the same as "multi-pass" vbr. I was intrigued if this recorder could really do "real" vbr ("multi-pass" is what I had in my head), but that wouldn't make any sense, if it has to record realtime onto a recordable dvd. So my hunch tells me that there use of the term "vbr" isn't what I had in mind is actually just the regular cbr with some variance and possible FR, as well.

The built-in atsc on a dvd-recorder seems like "the ticket", though, when it comes to seamlessly snagging hd broadcasts to an anamorphic sd recording. It takes some of the guesswork out of what to send the recorder from an outboard stb. It just seems like they need to make the flag setting operation more consistent, regardless of the media you choose to record.

Most of us (probably all of us) with Panasonic HDD recorders turn this feature off because the consequence of recording in hybrid VBR is that you cannot high-speed dub the recording to DVD-R. It must be done in real time so that the recording can be re-encoded to a constant resolution to satisfy DVD video standards.

I don't quite understand this part. Why does it matter if it is hybrid vbr or not if you high-speed dub from hdd to dvd-r? Does dvd-r have some native limitation that makes it not support vbr recordings? I can see how if you were recording direct to dvd-r, you would have to be stuck with how ever you were encoding the realtime source, but I don't see how the media, itself, could mandate if it is cbr or vbr.

What Kelson is referring to is that H-S dubbing cannot be performed if the resolution varies during the recording -- this violates DVD video standards. That is why, in Panasonic recorders, when H-S dubbing is set to "on", the hybrid VBR is automatically set to "fixed", to prevent the resolution from varying during the recording.

Thank you for the responses to my post. :)

So I'm confused now- is this Panasonic doing real "vbr" or FR via cbr, then? I guess the "vbr" nomenclature is a source of confusion, in that even cbr has some degree of vbr to it, but it still is not the same as "multi-pass" vbr. I was intrigued if this recorder could really do "real" vbr ("multi-pass" is what I had in my head), but that wouldn't make any sense, if it has to record realtime onto a recordable dvd. So my hunch tells me that there use of the term "vbr" isn't what I had in mind is actually just the regular cbr with some variance and possible FR, as well.

The built-in atsc on a dvd-recorder seems like "the ticket", though, when it comes to seamlessly snagging hd broadcasts to an anamorphic sd recording. It takes some of the guesswork out of what to send the recorder from an outboard stb. It just seems like they need to make the flag setting operation more consistent, regardless of the media you choose to record.

I think you have the right idea and was what I was trying to explain. No matter how Panasonic varies from the set CBR bitrates of XP, SP, LP and EP "modes" it is not a true VBR as in the computer sense. That would require a non realtime, multipass encode where by the encoding software determines the complexity of the video and what can be compressed more and what should be compressed less for optimum PQ for the amount of space designated. Everything on a DVD recorder is 1X, on the fly encode, at some preset or predetermined CBR.

I have heard others say that the Panasonic's record FR when live recording. I only use mine to timer record and have not read the manual in quite some time. That may be true but I am puzzled at how the unit would know when you are going to press the STOP button. In other words it doesn't know HOW MUCH recording it has to fit to the space available on the DVD. My Samsungs only have FR mode when timer recording. Then again, FR mode on the Samsung only decides for you, based on the length of the timer setting, which preset CBR to use for us; XP, SP, LP or EP.

At any rate, I would highly reccommend the EZ-17 to do just what you want; record downrez'd HD off of a digital tuner. The PQ is awesome even in 400 line LP mode. I only use FR mode to fit things to disc or what's left on a disc and reduce compression for even better quality. But on my 25" analog set, I can't see a difference between any setting except EP mode; which is pretty good but noticably compressed.

What Kelson is referring to is that H-S dubbing cannot be performed if the resolution varies during the recording -- this violates DVD video standards. That is why, in Panasonic recorders, when H-S dubbing is set to "on", the hybrid VBR is automatically set to "fixed", to prevent the resolution from varying during the recording.
"Violates DVD video standards"? First I've heard of this. The DVD standards allow MPEG2 encoding, which does the VBR encoding. (See this page.) (http://www3.toshiba.co.jp/dvd/e/whats/wh03/w_fr0302.htm)

I'm high-speed dubbing DVDs with VBR encoding all the time. You must be referring to something else or specific to Panasonic?

I agree. VBR is within the DVD standard. VBR or variable bit rate just applies to how the bit rate is allocated. With VBR the bit rate can vary. With CBR or constant bit rate the bit rate is fixed. Both are within the DVD standard.

VBR or CBR do not effect resolution. A resolution of 720x480 can be either VBR or CBR. As can 352x480 for example.

I had a Panasonic E30 which I believe was circa 2002. This model would change resolutions within a recording. Not good. Editing on a PC with Wombles MPEG2VCR for example was a real problem. And most if not all DVD authoring programs rejected the Panasonic recordings. Back then there were no or very few HDD models so editing was done on a PC. But it was my understanding that newer Panasonic models no longer change resolutions within a recording.

Ah, I see now...changing bit rate AND resolution during recording...not a good thing! :)

I did not say that VBR violates the DVD standard, reread the post.

If the resolution of the VBR recording varies during the recording (which Panasonic allows if the hybrid VBR is set to "automatic"), then the recording cannot be H-S dubbed. This function is provided, if desired, to decrease the appearance of macroblocks if the allocation of bits at the "normal" resolution is insufficient to prevent them. Decreasing the resolution decreases the bit rate needed to prevent macroblocks.

On older Panasonics (my E-500 for example), if you select the H-S dubbing option, the hybrid VBR is automatically set to "fixed" to prevent the resolution from changing during the recording. The selection of "automatic" hybid VBR (which will reduce the resolution during the recording, if needed to prevent macroblocks) is only allowed for recording to HDD or DVD-RAM, which means that it is only allowed for VR mode recordings. Automatic hybrid VBR (with varying resolution) is NOT allowed for Video mode recordings, which is why Kelson said (and I repeated) that recordings with varying resolution violates the DVD standard. If you want to dub a recording with varying resolution to a Video mode disc (DVD-R, +R, etc.) you need to do a real-time dub (and not a H-S dub) to reencode the program and maintain a constant resolution during the recording.

I hope that this is more clear.

I did not say that VBR violates the DVD standard, reread the post.
Yes sir!

I did not say that VBR violates the DVD standard, reread the post.

If the resolution of the VBR recording varies during the recording (which Panasonic allows if the hybrid VBR is set to "automatic"), then the recording cannot be H-S dubbed. This function is provided, if desired, to decrease the appearance of macroblocks if the allocation of bits at the "normal" resolution is insufficient to prevent them. Decreasing the resolution decreases the bit rate needed to prevent macroblocks.

On older Panasonics (my E-500 for example), if you select the H-S dubbing option, the hybrid VBR is automatically set to "fixed" to prevent the resolution from changing during the recording. The selection of "automatic" hybid VBR (which will reduce the resolution during the recording, if needed to prevent macroblocks) is only allowed for recording to HDD or DVD-RAM, which means that it is only allowed for VR mode recordings. Automatic hybrid VBR (with varying resolution) is NOT allowed for Video mode recordings, which is why Kelson said (and I repeated) that recordings with varying resolution violates the DVD standard. If you want to dub a recording with varying resolution to a Video mode disc (DVD-R, +R, etc.) you need to do a real-time dub (and not a H-S dub) to reencode the program and maintain a constant resolution during the recording.

I hope that this is more clear.

Yes this is exactly how I remember it. With the E30 I had the "fixed" option.

But I believe the newer Panasonics did away with this. I don't think you will find a "fixed" or "automatic" option with the EH55 for example. At least I don't remember one. I think Panasonic made a decision to get rid of the option of automatic (differing) resolutions a couple of years ago. If not longer.

Not positive because I did not spend very much time with the EH55 though. But I do not recall the automatic or fixed option. There is a high speed on/off switch with the EH55 but I don't think this relates to changing resolution within a recording. Like Toshiba I think it has more to do with how audio is handled in order to remain DVD compliant. Who knows, maybe it is resolution related.

edit - here's a question as it relates to the high speed on/off switch and what it does as it relates to resolution. With the newer Panasonic (I'll use the EH55 in this case) when setting the high speed option to off then this is supposed to enable variable resolutions in all FR cases? If this is true then what are the settings for fixed resolution for a 16x9 FR recording? In the old days you had the fixed option.

The only way to get a 16x9 recording to the HDD or Ram is to have the high speed setting switched off. Does this mean then all 16x9 FR recordings to the HDD or Ram are using variable resolutions? Somebody could check this by importing the VRO file into MPRG2VCR and check. I would be surprised if all 16x9 FR recordings on newer Panasonics are forced to use variable resolutions in FR mode. But maybe this is the case because the "fixed" switch is gone. Who knows. It gets confusing.

My direct experience with Panasonic stops with the E-85, but they don't change much -- if Vferrari is around he could say if the EH75 has hybrid VBR. The default setting is for hybrid VBR to be enabled. It applies to all recording modes including FR. Regardless of the hybrid VBR setting, all modes are VBR encoded, there is no CBR recording. The option that one selects is for high-speed dubbing - yes or no. If yes, hybrid VBR is turned off (which they label as "fixed") so that the recording is made at constant resolution but still VBR encoded. A hybrid VBR encoded program is in VR mode. It will choke a good many authoring programs that expect constant resolution (i.e. TMPGenC DVD author 1.6). It must be re-encoded to constant resolution in order to enable authoring to a DVD Video mode disk. On a DVD recorder this happens in realtime. On a PC, most of the encoders I've played with are even slower.

The main difference between realtime VBR on a recorder and multi-pass VBR on a PC is bandwidth. PC utilities such as "bitrate1.4" are available which will read a DVD and display a graph of bitrate vs. time. For a DVDR recorded program at SP mode the bitrate only varies approx. +/-1 Mbps about the average bitrate. The dynamic range is narrow but it is still VBR. I have looked at commercial DVDs and seen huge dynamic ranges that cover 1-8Mbps. That's what a high-priced computer encoder will give you -- the scenes that need the bitrate really get it.

The biggest problem with Panasonic hybrid VBR surfaced with their non-HDD recorders. Many of the models had it on by default with no way to turn it off when recording to RAM. Afterwards, if you also had a Panasonic HDD model, you could HS-dub the RAM onto the HDD unit for editing, but when it came time to burn off to DVD-R, it could only be done in realtime. I don't know if the new EZ series has this limitation. No one has reported buying one, who already has a Panasonic HDD unit, and trying to do a RAM transfer. I would have thought HG would have done so by now.

RG -- didn't you just buy an EZ-17?

Kelson - I'm tracking with everything you are saying. It reminds me of my days of playing around with CCE. Only back then it was with SVCD and trying to fit a movie onto two CDs. I actually preferred one pass CBR to multiple pass VBR encoding. It seemed like regardless of how many passes with VBR the dark scenes always showed blocking. Especially with a movie that began with a black screen. But this was with around a 2.5 mb/s setting

As far as Panasonic and variable resolutions. If you look at the E-80 manual for example there are references to hybrid VBR resolution when high speed is defined in the manual. Page 44 (page 41 of the E-85 manual). There is also a subsequent discussion on the same page for setting fixed or variable resolutions.

In the EH55 manual this discussion is conspicuously absent. Page 61 of the EH55 manual. Hybrid VBR resolution is not included in the enable high speed mode portion of the manual like it is in the E-80 manual. There is also no reference to either fixed or variable resolution anywhere in the EH55 manual.

This might lead one to believe that Panasonic has taken a different approach. Not sure.

As far as the 2007 models it is my understanding that because of the ATSC tuner they are all using LSI chipsets. Not the Panasonic chipsets of previous years. I'm not sure if this may have an impact on how variable resolution is implemented in the 2007 models.

Well this spawned an interesting discussion on what is going on with this "hybrid vbr". It is more clear now, and thank you for the explanations.

Another interesting question I had on this model is what happens when you playback an anamorphic recording that came directly from an hd program by the ATSC tuner? Will the player, itself, automatically expand/letterbox the recording properly when outputting to a standard 4:3 tv, or does it rely on the display to apply the proper framing?

The biggest problem with Panasonic hybrid VBR surfaced with their non-HDD recorders. Many of the models had it on by default with no way to turn it off when recording to RAM. Afterwards, if you also had a Panasonic HDD model, you could HS-dub the RAM onto the HDD unit for editing, but when it came time to burn off to DVD-R, it could only be done in realtime. I don't know if the new EZ series has this limitation. No one has reported buying one, who already has a Panasonic HDD unit, and trying to do a RAM transfer. I would have thought HG would have done so by now.

RG -- didn't you just buy an EZ-17?

Yes, Kelson, I have an EZ-17, and the problem still persists. I tried recording a program on a DVD-RAM disc on my EZ-17 and H-S dubbed it to the HDD of my E-500. The symbol for H-S dubbing enabled was not there, so H-S dubbing to DVD-R was not possible. I could still H-S dub back to a DVD-RAM, but we've always had that capability. It looks like nothing has changed in this regard.

On thing I still want to try is to record to DVD-RAM on my EZ-17, H-S dub to the HDD on my Pioneer 640, and see if I can H-S dub from there to a DVD-R. I don't believe that Pioneers have the same prohibition as the Panasonics, but I need to try it to make sure.

I too would like to know "what happens when you playback an anamorphic recording that came directly from an hd program by the ATSC tuner? Will the player, itself, automatically expand/letterbox the recording properly when outputting to a standard 4:3 tv, or does it rely on the display to apply the proper framing?"

IOW, is the DVD-RAM going to playback 16:9 just like a commercial DVD?

I'm interested in getting one of these recorders but would like to know a little more.

I'm still not sure from reading the postings if you record a 16:9 HD program to DVD-RAM if it is recording anamorphic or just letterboxed 16:9. I'm using an HDTV so I guess I really do not have to be concerned about setting the 16:9 flag that a read about.

Also how does the QAM tuner handle entering channel numbers? Can I enter 116.2 or 100.11 via the remote? Does it have a decimal point on the remote? My TV's remote does and this make it real easy to enter any number.

Any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike

Remote doea have a deciaml point/dash button. Can't comment on the recording capabilities as I haven't had time to do any type of recording yet.

Thanks for the QAM reply.
If anyone has tried playing back a 16:9 recording from an HD broadcast on an HDTV, please let me know if it plays back & fills the screen just like a commercial DVD. My HDTV does have different zoom modes, but stretching a letterbox image to fill the screen still cuts a bit off. It just would be nice if the recorded image displayed the same size as the original broadcast.

I'm still not sure from reading the postings if you record a 16:9 HD program to DVD-RAM if it is recording anamorphic or just letterboxed 16:9.
You can record and playback in full-screen 16:9 when using DVD-RAM.

Thanks for the QAM reply.
If anyone has tried playing back a 16:9 recording from an HD broadcast on an HDTV, please let me know if it plays back & fills the screen just like a commercial DVD. My HDTV does have different zoom modes, but stretching a letterbox image to fill the screen still cuts a bit off. It just would be nice if the recorded image displayed the same size as the original broadcast.

Mike,

I can tell you for sure that my EZ17 is recording the full widescreen to DVD-R and then adding black bars at the top and bottom to letterbox it on my 4:3 set; but I do see the entire width of the frame. From what I have read, recording to DVD-RAM is the only way to preserve the widescreen flag to tell your TV to stretch the anamorphic frame back out upon playback. Recording to DVD-R does not save the widescreen flag, and while presumably records the anamorphic widescreen frame, there is nothing to tell your TV to stretch it back out. If your TV can be set by you to stretch the frame back out; it should look just like what you originally watched. In other words, the information is there, it's getting the TV to display it properly. Hope that helps.

You can record and playback in full-screen 16:9 when using DVD-RAM.


Thanks for the reply.

I'd like to wait for a 2nd generation digital tuner DVD recorder. But with the new TV programs starting now, this would be convenient time to get one.

I've been checking out eBay and may try that route.

Just got a DMR-EZ27 to go along with my new TH-42PZ77U (panasonic 42" plasma HDTV) to try and get not-really-but-hd-like letterbox maintained from a tv show in HD, to DVD before the Comcast HD/DVR can eat it (hard drive has deleted itself twice this year.) The idea being the EZ27's upconversion (using the 2nd HDMI-in on the TV) couldn't hurt in this.

So, how are y'all getting the signal to the DVD Recorder? I was thinking:
Record HD program to HD/DVR
Playback to TV via HDMI & playback to DVD Recorder with S-Video & RCA .
(2a) and have recorder set with new tricks learned on this thread ("turning clock set to off, DST to off, and VSS to off")

Are you(s), instead, talking about going directly into the DVD recorder in some fashion (eg. right into the RF/Coax-IN)? Since/cuz my hd/dvr-OUT is now HDMI-to-TV, that leaves the rf-OUT of the comcast box free, and the recorder has an RF-IN... Hmmm...

DVD-RAM vs. DVD-R: The EZ27 manual also has the "record in letterbox but only with DVD-RAM" to keep the 16:9..."flag". But it also sounds like if I use DVD-R I can use the TV to fix the aspect there as well.. so still going back/forth on that. (not to mention, wouldn't the (faux-?)upconversion on the playback be able to help with that anyway?) On the other hand, if I had four 1-hour shows that I wanted to get on a single DVD, DVD-R isn't going to let me do that, is it? DVD-R is a one-shot deal as far as recording onto it? (or should that be asked elsewhere?)

Finally.. there's no "quick" way of getting programming (SD, actually) out of the HD/DVR, is there? Seems like you have to play ("out") normal speed no matter what. That sound right?

Man, you'd think with a HD/DVR, a Panasonic DMR-EZ27 and a panasonic TH-42PZ77U with *2* HDMI inputs I'd be able to figure something out maintain decent PQ in 16:9 for a stupid TV show. (and yes, I know you can't record a (720p) HD show onto a (480) DVD. Promise.)

Thanks,
raph

Well, this is the thread for the EZ17, not the EZ27.

Well, this is the thread for the EZ17, not the EZ27.

Same machine except for HDMI out which should not apply based on the inquiry. That was a pretty tough response to a first time poster.

Just got a DMR-EZ27... So, how are y'all getting the signal to the DVD Recorder? I was thinking:
Record HD program to HD/DVR
Playback to TV via HDMI & playback to DVD Recorder with S-Video & RCA .
(2a)...
That's how I do it. HDMI to television, and S-Video to the DVD recorder. My DirecTivo will output an anamorphic signal through the S-Video port that is "full screen" (Not letterboxed) which I record on to -Rs and use the television to get the original aspect back, and this works perfectly using my Panasonic, and my Vizio televisions.
DVD-RAM vs. DVD-R: The EZ27 manual also has the "record in letterbox but only with DVD-RAM" to keep the 16:9..."flag". But it also sounds like if I use DVD-R I can use the TV to fix the aspect there as well.. so still going back/forth on that. (not to mention, wouldn't the (faux-?)upconversion on the playback be able to help with that anyway?)
This will only be an issue if you are still using a 4:3 television and need the DVDs letterboxed for proper aspect ratio. The -RAM will do this, but none of the other formats. The Panasonic DVD recorders just don't put in the widescreen flag on any format but -RAM.
On the other hand, if I had four 1-hour shows that I wanted to get on a single DVD, DVD-R isn't going to let me do that, is it? DVD-R is a one-shot deal as far as recording onto it? (or should that be asked elsewhere?)
Using LP mode, you can get four 1 hour programs on a single -R. You can't reuse a DVD-R of course, but there is no reason you couldn't record the content. Am I not understanding your question?
Finally.. there's no "quick" way of getting programming (SD, actually) out of the HD/DVR, is there? Seems like you have to play ("out") normal speed no matter what. That sound right?
Yes, you are correct. There is no way to high speed transfer the content from your DVR to the DVD recorder. You have to do it in real time.
Man, you'd think with a HD/DVR, a Panasonic DMR-EZ27 and a panasonic TH-42PZ77U with *2* HDMI inputs I'd be able to figure something out maintain decent PQ in 16:9 for a stupid TV show. (and yes, I know you can't record a (720p) HD show onto a (480) DVD. Promise.) Thanks, raph
If you do it right, the picture quality of a down rezed hi-def show recorded on a -R can be very, very good. Not HD of course, but almost indistinguishable from purchased DVDs. The -Rs I made of the Planet Earth series are stunning.

On the other hand, if I had four 1-hour shows that I wanted to get on a single DVD, DVD-R isn't going to let me do that, is it? DVD-R is a one-shot deal as far as recording onto it? (or should that be asked elsewhere?)
Church wasn't sure about this question and I'm not either, but if you mean, can you record a 1-hr show on a -R or +R, then later another 3 more times, then YES...as long as you don't finalize the disc between dubs. Get all 4 shows on the disc, then finalize, is A-OK.

Same machine except for HDMI out which should not apply based on the inquiry. That was a pretty tough response to a first time poster.


Sorry, wasn't trying to be harsh. Just thought he had to threads mixed up. I thought the 27 must have upconverting and all that since it has hdmi, and that it would operate differently. Also didn't realize it was his first post. Usually I'm the first to say welcome to AVS. So... welcome :o.

Sorry, wasn't trying to be harsh. Just thought he had to threads mixed up. I thought the 27 must have upconverting and all that since it has hdmi, and that it would operate differently. Also didn't realize it was his first post. Usually I'm the first to say welcome to AVS. So... welcome :o.

Been there done that. No big deal. :)

Boy, does this topic grow in spurts! :D Great information here!

Here's another question/statement- would it be safe to say that recordings of hd programs from the ATSC tuner are best done at a 5+ Mb/s setting, to retain utmost quality? That can make optimal sl or dvd-ram recording times pretty short, right? (sd programs off of highly compressed digital satellite or cable source are another matter, of course) Maybe you can squeeze in just under 2 hrs?...significantly less if you set at well over 5 Mb/s. That's been the practice I have gravitated to on my Toshiba recorder. I guess I am wondering if "5+" is a good default number for this purpose or does anybody else out there feel comfortable with recording hd programs to sd at sub 5 Mb/s bitrates?

Is it possible to set specific bitrates on the EZ17k for a recording, or is it just the 3 built-in speeds? (sorry if this was answered here, already)

OK. After reading the entire thread and looking through the manual, I'm still a bit confused on the whole 16:9 recording with this unit. Is it strictly limited to DVD-RAM or will it record true 16:9 on -RW/+RW? My intention is to get a DVD recorder to use like my VCR (I don't archive stuff which is why I'd be using -RW/+RW media). My plan was to use the Panny to record only and then play it back on my upconverting DVD player (which doesn't support DVD-RAM). All viewing would be done on my 16:9 TV (which has a "FULL" picture mode).

Thanks in advance!

Is it strictly limited to DVD-RAM or will it record true 16:9 on -RW/+RW? plan was to use the Panny to record only and then play it back on my upconverting DVD player (which doesn't support DVD-RAM). All viewing would be done on my 16:9 TV (which has a "FULL" picture mode).Thanks in advance!

Okay, this is my lame attempt to be helpful after all the help I have received here (and in such a short amount of time!! :D)

So i said: "DVD-RAM vs. DVD-R: The EZ27 manual also has the "record in letterbox but only with DVD-RAM" to keep the 16:9..."flag". But it also sounds like if I use DVD-R I can use the TV to fix the aspect there as well..

Church AV Guy said: "which I record on to -Rs and use the television to get the original aspect back"

Therefore... if -R's work, -RW's should work and my understanding is that the recording will take the 16:9 and smoosh the whole thing into 4:3, so as you say, during playback you'll need to change the ASPECT via your TV.

HTH,
Raphaelae

Okay, this is my lame attempt to be helpful after all the help I have received here (and in such a short amount of time!! :D)

So i said: "DVD-RAM vs. DVD-R: The EZ27 manual also has the "record in letterbox but only with DVD-RAM" to keep the 16:9..."flag". But it also sounds like if I use DVD-R I can use the TV to fix the aspect there as well..

Church AV Guy said: "which I record on to -Rs and use the television to get the original aspect back"

Therefore... if -R's work, -RW's should work and my understanding is that the recording will take the 16:9 and smoosh the whole thing into 4:3, so as you say, during playback you'll need to change the ASPECT via your TV.

HTH,
Raphaelae

Correct!

After getting lied to by Circuit City Guy ("you can't...because the signal is encrypted"), and getting Comcast Girl email support that was too slow (2 days) and too vague ("you should be able to without losing anything"), and Panasonic's too specific FAQ ("Q: Can I record in HD/5.1? A: No.") .. this is such a breath of fresh air. Seriously. I mean, overnight the hd/dvr decided it wanted to keep recording despite the program being over, so 5 hours of stuff I hadn't watched yet got overwritten with 5 hours of infomercials.

Church wasn't sure about this question and I'm not either, but if you mean, can you record a 1-hr show on a -R or +R, then later another 3 more times, then YES...as long as you don't finalize the disc between dubs. Get all 4 shows on the disc, then finalize, is A-OK.

Yup. That's it exactly. "Don't finalize." Perfection.

Just thought he had to threads mixed up. I thought the 27...would operate differently. Also didn't realize it was his first post.

Nope. Just as nextoo pointed out, I knew the diff. between 17 & 27 didn't make my questions different, plus here's this thread already made with all this wonderful info so why start another, especially since the first post is about recording in/with 16:9.

Also, It would seem S-p also didn't realize "Raphaelae" is a chick's nick. So I think that makes him 0 for 3. ;)

Here's another question/statement- would it be safe to say that recordings of hd programs from the ATSC tuner are best done at a 5+ Mb/s setting, to retain utmost quality?

And if so, would that then need to be included in The List of How To Optimally Record to via 16:9? As in... Turning clock set to off DST to off and VSS to off tuner set to 5+ Mb/s setting

Raph

Boy, does this topic grow in spurts! :D Great information here!

Here's another question/statement- would it be safe to say that recordings of hd programs from the ATSC tuner are best done at a 5+ Mb/s setting, to retain utmost quality? That can make optimal sl or dvd-ram recording times pretty short, right? (sd programs off of highly compressed digital satellite or cable source are another matter, of course) Maybe you can squeeze in just under 2 hrs?...significantly less if you set at well over 5 Mb/s. That's been the practice I have gravitated to on my Toshiba recorder. I guess I am wondering if "5+" is a good default number for this purpose or does anybody else out there feel comfortable with recording hd programs to sd at sub 5 Mb/s bitrates?

Is it possible to set specific bitrates on the EZ17k for a recording, or is it just the 3 built-in speeds? (sorry if this was answered here, already)


IMO The better the original PQ the better it stands up to more compression. Recording OTA from the ATSC tuner yields DVD quality recordings even in LP mode. Of course, theoretically, the less compression the better the end result, which is why I still try to record at SP mode or use FR mode to fit the program to the time remaining on the disc. However, I have found that recording from my already compressed digital cable STB via S-Video in LP mode tends to highlite the compression artifacts already visible in the picture and make them a little worse. Kind of like I found VHS to be almost acceptable on the new primetime TV shows but recording older syndicated shows further highlited the analog "dirt" in the picture. Just my 2 cents but the worse the PQ the less I would try to compress it.

BTW The user can not set specific bitrates but you are not limited to the set bitrates of XP, SP, LP and EP modes. You can use FR mode where it will calculate a bitrate based on the time remaining on the disc. Have a program that is 2hrs 12 mins, no need to drop down to LP mode to fit a program that ordinarily would not fit in 2hr mode, let FR mode fit it to the disc for optimum space vs. quality.

Originally Posted by Raphaelae
Also, It would seem S-p also didn't realize "Raphaelae" is a chick's nick. So I think that makes him 0 for 3.

Sorry again. In my defense, 99.9% of people on AVS are men. :)

Okay, this is my lame attempt to be helpful after all the help I have received here (and in such a short amount of time!! :D)

So i said: "DVD-RAM vs. DVD-R: The EZ27 manual also has the "record in letterbox but only with DVD-RAM" to keep the 16:9..."flag". But it also sounds like if I use DVD-R I can use the TV to fix the aspect there as well..

Church AV Guy said: "which I record on to -Rs and use the television to get the original aspect back"

Therefore... if -R's work, -RW's should work and my understanding is that the recording will take the 16:9 and smoosh the whole thing into 4:3, so as you say, during playback you'll need to change the ASPECT via your TV.

HTH,
Raphaelae
Yes, but bear in mind, as I THINK I said above, this will work fine for 16:9 televisions, but if you play -R disks so recorded on a 4:3 set, the lack of the WS flag will not tell the DVD player to letterbox the content and everything will be horizontally compressed. The aspect ratio will be very wrong. I no longer have any 4:3 sets, so it does not effect me personally. If people ask to borrow a disk of mine, I warn them.

Ah!...That would definitely be the important distinction to acknowledge about this whole situation. The flag being set or not set is not so much critical for widescreen displays (which will likely be equipped with the extra framing modes to handle unflagged anamorphic recordings, so the user can adjust it manually if it doesn't happen automatically), but the 4:3 displays (which likely lack the extra framing modes) will have to rely on the player to apply the correct framing to anamorphic recordings. For this particular player/recorder, hd programs should definitely be recorded to dvd-ram to take advantage of the flag preservation function for sdtv users. Hdtv users can benefit from the same practice, as well, but it isn't as critical. The anamorphic recording can be sent to any media, it seems. It's just the matter of the flag to automatically set your display to the proper framing that is tied to a particular media (in this case, dvd-ram). If you have the means to "switch" your display, as needed, then it is all good (aside from the small inconvenience of it needing your intervention).

Yes, but bear in mind, as I THINK I said above, this will work fine for 16:9 televisions, but if you play -R disks so recorded on a 4:3 set, the lack of the WS flag will not tell the DVD player to letterbox the content and everything will be horizontally compressed. The aspect ratio will be very wrong. I no longer have any 4:3 sets, so it does not effect me personally. If people ask to borrow a disk of mine, I warn them.

Unless I am just not understanding what is going on, my EZ17 appears to be correctly adding black bars and letterboxing widescreen material on my 4:3 set when using -Rs. Most obvious of this is my CBS affiliate which shows 4:3 material full screen and widescreen material in widescreen with commercials in full screen. It correctly alternates back and forth at commercial breaks. My other stations appear letterboxed all the time with that annoying "postage stamp" effect on 4:3 material as they assume everyone is watching them on a widescreen HDTV. But I am definitely seeing the entire width of the screen and it is obviously generating black bars at the top and bottom of my 4:3 display.

PS. Unless you mean playing it back on another player?

I've got an EZ47 arriving later today. Same tuner as the EZ17. I'll throw my 2 cents in on this topic after a few tests. Thanks for all the info.

Unless I am just not understanding what is going on, my EZ17 appears to be correctly adding black bars and letterboxing widescreen material on my 4:3 set when using -Rs. Most obvious of this is my CBS affiliate which shows 4:3 material full screen and widescreen material in widescreen with commercials in full screen. It correctly alternates back and forth at commercial breaks. My other stations appear letterboxed all the time with that annoying "postage stamp" effect on 4:3 material as they assume everyone is watching them on a widescreen HDTV. But I am definitely seeing the entire width of the screen and it is obviously generating black bars at the top and bottom of my 4:3 display.

PS. Unless you mean playing it back on another player?
If bobkart were still around, he'd be responding that the recorder doesn't add black bars, it just records whatever it's sent. (He actually got tired of repeating it but it kept coming up.)

Here's one of his posts on this subject. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9463033#post9463033)

Here's another. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9480508#post9480508) This adds the player into the equation.

Yes, I would agree with that completely. That appears to be what is happening. I have actually played back discs recorded and finalized on my EZ17 in my Samsung R-330 with the same results. Widescreen material is presented in full widescreen in letterboxed format on my 4:3 set. I don't know why the Panasonic would add them and record the material that way. Something must be telling these units to add them on playback.

Yes, I would agree with that completely. That appears to be what is happening. I have actually played back discs recorded and finalized on my EZ17 in my Samsung R-330 with the same results. Widescreen material is presented in full widescreen in letterboxed format on my 4:3 set. I don't know why the Panasonic would add them and record the material that way. Something must be telling these units to add them on playback.
Yes, your EZ17 (and *all* others) will PLAY back 16:9 material with black bars if you set your the EZ17's "TV Aspect" ratio to 4:3. (On my Philips 3575, I set that in the Video > TV Aspect menu. In my Pio 640, the setting is in the Playback menu section.)

I've set my DVDRs to a TV Aspect ratio of 16:9 and my 4:3 TV shows the pic differently... if DVDR set for 16:9, get full-screen pic with some side cutoff...if DVDR set for pan/scan, get full screen pic with MORE side cutoff and taller people.

The main point is that setting is in a Playback or Video menu... it isn't (normally) in the Recording section of the DVDR menus.

Yes, I totally agree with you. My recorders are set to 4:3 display. Not to muddy the waters, I am just wondering why, if I am recording an anamorphic widescreen broadcast, what is telling the recorder that this is widescreen material and it should add black bars to the image displayed on my 4:3 TV if no widescreen flag is being saved to my DVD-R. Why wouldn't I see a full screen image with tall, skinny people? Or do I just not understand?

Yes, but bear in mind, as I THINK I said above, this will work fine for 16:9 televisions, but if you play -R disks so recorded on a 4:3 set, the lack of the WS flag will not tell the DVD player to letterbox the content and everything will be horizontally compressed. The aspect ratio will be very wrong. I no longer have any 4:3 sets, so it does not effect me personally. If people ask to borrow a disk of mine, I warn them.

The easiest way around the aspect ratio issue is to re-author the DVD on your PC, re-setting the aspect flag on the SOURCE video in the authoring application. I use TMPGEnc-Author for this job and the results are great. It doesn't require re-encoding the video, because you are setting the flag on the source. Not all applications will allow you to set aspect flag on the source, so YMMV.

Once re-authored in this way, you have a true 16:9 image that will display correctly on any monitor. This also allows you to create proper custom menus, re-chapter, etc. It's not time consuming either, as long as you are not re-encoding the video.

Yes, to be complete, you are absolutely correct. The WS flag can be added via a PC using the appropriate software. I did not include this information because it didn't directly address the specific question which was about DVD recorders. Actually, I just forgot. As I said, I no longer have any 4:3 televisions, so the flag is unimportant to me. I let the television correct the aspect ratio. The computer solution just slips my mind due to my level of unconcern.

The WS flag is really only important when watching full screen anamorphic recordings on a 4:3 television.

To all who chimed in on the 16:9 "issue" with this recorder -

Thanks for all the replies, feedback and clarifications! It appears that the DMR-EZ17 will work just fine for me (with my 16:9 TV). Now off to order one... :)

Well, looks like I'm an owner, today! :) Glad I waited to see whatsup at Fry's before purchasing at Amazon. I got it for $149.99 where Amazon would have been $169.99 plus shipping! :D

Well, looks like I'm an owner, today! :) Glad I waited to see whatsup at Fry's before purchasing at Amazon. I got it for $149.99 where Amazon would have been $169.99 plus shipping! :D

Was this a special in-store sale? I have the Fry's sales flyer and do not see this item on sale.

I went to Fry's (Illinois) this afternoon & they did not have the EZ17 on sale. They had the EZ27 for $199.99 though.

Which Fry's had it for $149.99?

I went to Fry's (Illinois) this afternoon & they did not have the EZ17 on sale. They had the EZ27 for $199.99 though.

Which Fry's had it for $149.99?I was in the one in D.G., IL the other night, and I noticed they had the ES15 on clearance for $139.00 (no great deal), but I didn't even look at the price on the EZ17. I think I remembered seeing the model, but I just glanced over it quickly. If that's the store you were at, then you would already know.

It's not on sale (that I am aware of). You just got to walk in there and see the price tag. Here's the confusing part- the silver model is $199, but the black model is $149. Strange, eh? I even asked the salesman about the price difference. He said that sometimes they have specials where they want to push one of the model colors, even though they are functionally the same model.

This was at the Orange Co. Fry's, so maybe the same deals are not available elsewhere.

I was in my local Sears yesterday and they had the ES15 on clearance for $69 and change for anyone still interested in that one.

Rammitinski -
Yes, that's the Fry's I was in. I really don't recall if I noticed the ES15. I looked at the newer Panny's and the Samsung with the HDD. The salesperson confirmed their sales run Fri thru Tues and he didn't recall the EZ17 having been on sale, but I didn't really expect him to remember past sales items.

Mr. Hanky -
Thanks for the info. I'll try to call my local Fry's and mention your store had/has a sale and ask why they don't have the same and hope for the best.

Seeing as how the EZ seems to play any dvd format under the sun, ;) what kind of recordable discs should I try out next? I already have dvd-r and dvd-ram, handy, but I am curious to try out some of the other types. Is there a compelling reason to use the "+" kind over the "-" kind between r and rw variants, or do they all pretty much do the same thing?

I really don't recall if I noticed the ES15. I looked at the newer Panny's and the Samsung with the HDD.Samsung doesn't make an HDD model. Are you sure you don't mean the Philips? They had a pile of those, but they wanted $329.99 for one.

At least it's good to actually see the Philips on a shelf in a store somewhere for a change. But that's just too much money. Probably why they still had so many.

Samsung doesn't make an HDD model. Are you sure you don't mean the Philips? They had a pile of those, but they wanted $329.99 for one.

At least it's good to actually see the Philips on a shelf in a store somewhere for a change. But that's just too much money. Probably why they still had so many.

Yep, you're right, it was a Philips.

It's not on sale (that I am aware of). You just got to walk in there and see the price tag. Here's the confusing part- the silver model is $199, but the black model is $149. Strange, eh? I even asked the salesman about the price difference. He said that sometimes they have specials where they want to push one of the model colors, even though they are functionally the same model.

This was at the Orange Co. Fry's, so maybe the same deals are not available elsewhere.


I had my wife call the Illinois Fry's today as I was at work meetings all day. She is real good at digging out information & I had hoped a store manager might acknowledge the sale in Calif and offer her the same deal. She talked to the "acting manager", that's what he called himself. He said the Fry's stores are franchises & they do not share the same sales. I can understand not sharing the same sales, especially in store specials. But I thought John Fry owned all the stores.

I feel like this has already been answered, up there in #60s, but my head won't go around it. I recorded the HD of HOUSE on the HD/DVR. I play the dvr with RF out (and S-video/RCA out) to DVD-recorder with a DVD-RAM disc (the TV appears to pick up the HDMI2 from DVD-recorder to the TV during the recording process).

What plays'back from the disc (via HDMI) is a normal looking picture with black bars on the top and the bottom. So despite a 16:9 recording on the DVR, getting recorded to&play'd-back'd on a DVD-RAM disc, and getting played out (via HDMI) on a 16:9 tv, i can't the playback (or is the record) to fill the TV.

So it's like I'm overly 16:9'd somewhere along the way.

And I don't know if this helps/confuses... but if I'm not recording, and just "watching tv" through the dvd recorder (set to ch. 4), and changing channels through the HD/DVR... letterbox is applied no matter what kind of channel I am on...SD or HD... normal looking 16:9 ratio but with horizontal bars.

Hrmmmm. Thanks.

I feel like this has already been answered, up there in #60s, but my head won't go around it. I recorded the HD of HOUSE on the HD/DVR. I play the dvr with RF out (and S-video/RCA out) to DVD-recorder with a DVD-RAM disc (the TV appears to pick up the HDMI2 from DVD-recorder to the TV during the recording process).

What plays'back from the disc (via HDMI) is a normal looking picture with black bars on the top and the bottom. So despite a 16:9 recording on the DVR, getting recorded to&play'd-back'd on a DVD-RAM disc, and getting played out (via HDMI) on a 16:9 tv, i can't the playback (or is the record) to fill the TV.

So it's like I'm overly 16:9'd somewhere along the way.

And I don't know if this helps/confuses... but if I'm not recording, and just "watching tv" through the dvd recorder (set to ch. 4), and changing channels through the HD/DVR... letterbox is applied no matter what kind of channel I am on...SD or HD... normal looking 16:9 ratio but with horizontal bars.

Hrmmmm. Thanks.


Hi Raphaelae,

If I follow you correctly, you are trying to transfer recordings from your HD DVR downsampled to your DVD recorder. It sounds to me that by downsampling to 480i and adding black bars at the top and bottom, your HD DVR is assuming you have it connected to a 4:3 device and want to view widescreen material letterboxed. Therefore, you are inadvertently converting your anamorphic widescreen recordings to 4:3 letterboxed recordings on your DVD recorder. I don't have any experience with this but perhaps if you mention what type of HD DVR you have someone else could help; or you could search this forum for recording anamorphic widescreen from thru an S-Video source which I believe has been covered.

This is correct. The STB introduces letterboxing because it assumes when using svideo/composite output that it is going to a 4:3 SDTV (480i).

This is a very common problem. The problem is not with the DVD recorder. It is with the STB.

This is correct. The STB introduces letterboxing because it assumes when using svideo/composite output that it is going to a 4:3 SDTV (480i).

This is a very common problem. The problem is not with the DVD recorder. It is with the STB.

So if it's NOT going to an SDTV, then why are you even using s-video??

So if it's NOT going to an SDTV, then why are you even using s-video??

Because svideo is often used to connect to a SD DVD recorder. And the result is an artifically introduced letterbox image. And this is wht people complain about.

Take that same svideo cable and hook it up to you widescreen TV and you'll see the same thing. The STB when using svideo/composite out sends a letterboxed 4:3 image.

Here's another example:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11797744&postcount=271

Okayyyy... So, ummm, still don't get why you just don't use component.

Very few DVD recorders have component inputs. If a DVD recorder has component inputs and the source is capable of doing 480i widescreen out of its component outputs then of course component to a DVD recorder should be used.

I must have been confused. I thought you were talking output, not input. Sorry.

Hi Raphaelae, It sounds to me that by downsampling to 480i and adding black bars at the top and bottom, your HD DVR is assuming you have it connected to a 4:3 device and want to view widescreen material letterboxed. Therefore, you are inadvertently converting your anamorphic widescreen recordings to 4:3 letterboxed recordings on your DVD recorder..

HD/DVR = Motorolla DCT 3416 through Comcast.

But unfortunately for me, what you say seems logical. :-/ Which sucks cuz I thought that's why you did the S-Video to keep the letterbox.

Now, shouldn't I be able to confirm what HVG says above, by plugging in the HD/DVR into a 4:3 shaped TV (thinking my Sony WEGA 27" flat screen) via RF and seeing if HD channels come out in 16:9 w/ black bars?

Also, if you can "tell" the EZ17/27 in SETUP that the TV is indeed 16:9, then shouldn't the DVD recorder be "smart" enough to spit the signal back out to "FULL"? On the other hand, IF the above IS true, then what I just said doesn't matter, since semi-GIGO applies, and I need to look at the HD/DVR "setup" and hope that I can change the RF settings somewhere. (poss. while connected to 27" Sony WEGA..?)

Raphaela

PS. ... STB?

STB = Set Top Box

Unfortunately, S-Video is inherently a 4:3 connection. nextoo is correct, you will have to try to find a way to squish the widescreen image to an anamorphic widescreen output over the S-Video outputof your Motorola. The EZ17 is only recording what it is being given - a 4:3 480i signal. There is nothing on the EZ17 you can set.

STB = Set Top Box Unfortunately, S-Video is inherently a 4:3 connection. nextoo is correct, you will have to try to find a way to squish the widescreen image to an anamorphic widescreen output over the S-Video outputof your Motorola.

Oh dear.

I thought getting the letterbox/16:9 from the hd/dvr to the dvd recorder is EXACTLY why you used the S-Video cable in the first place. :(

So I bought/returned a $99 DVD-S63 to buy a $229 EZ27, when it looks like I really did want to by an upconverting DVD player, down the TVshow-hdtv.avi from the web some -how/-where and burn it to DVD on the computer and play it from $99 dvd upconverting dvd player?

(Last night I discovered the HD/DVR ate my HD of HBO's As You Like It before I could watch it. *sigh*)

raph

PS. Seems the same discussion is going on here (it is a STICKY from AVS Forum > Video Components > DVD Recorders ...) I didn't see it as I found -this thread- first, directly from/via searching on google.com.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=599173&page=10

Me sad.

OK. My DMR-EZ17K showed up yesterday - got it for $166 from an online authorized Panasonic dealer with free shipping and free returns within 30 day which I thought was a pretty good deal. There is a May 2007 date on the box from where Panasonic shipped the units to the dealer. All that said, I've not even taken it out of its box yet but have been reading through this thread. I realize I need to turn the Auto Clock Set, DST and VSS to "off" to (hopefully) avoid any issues. I read a couple of posts that mentioned a firmware upgrade from Panasonic. Does anyone know what this firmware fixes/upgrades and how one goes about obtaining it? I could not find it on the Panasonic support site at all so does one simply have to call them? Or should I leave well enough alone if the unit works fine?

I left well enough alone but then again I am strictly using mine for OTA timer recording only. The firmware upgrade was suppose to take care of the low audio "VSS" problem. I don't recall the posters that claimed to have received it from Panasonic posting their results with it; and I asked. I believe you will have to contact Panasonic support and report the problem, assuming you have it, and they will mail a CD with the update on it directly. I will probably wait until they post it online, since it is not bothering me, and even then just for the hell of it. You will still have the clock set/DST bug like many other recorders and I have learned the hard way I prefer to monitor/manually set my clock for greater accuracy.

On my Panasonic EZ-17, I have DST set to ON, and Auto Clock Set, and I have had no problem with maintaining the proper time. I record off of analog extended basic cable, and I assume that the DVDR is receiving the time signal from my local PBS station.

The much-stated "DST - Auto Clock Set" problem is not universal. My guess is that it is a function of the accuracy of the time signal from your local PBS station.

Just to clarify, I had problems with my Samsungs receiving bogus times from multiple cable channels leaving me caught off guard and missing some recordings. While this had nothing to do with my EZ17, I just prefer to monitor/adjust the time myself. Yes, the manually entered time, even on my EZ17, still needs to be adjust occasionally as it gets a minute or two off over time.

The DST/Auto Clock Set "bug" I was having with the Panasonic was that it intermittently missed my timer settings. When it became more frequent, I took wabjxo's advice and turned them off. Actually, I already had it on Manual Clock Set (my preference) but DST was turned on. After turning DST to off and unplugging the unit for 30 seconds, powering it back on, allowing it to fully reboot, I no longer had any more missed timer settings for 5 months now.

OK, it just doesn't happen to everyone.

Virtually all the people with the DST Bug have their DVDRs connected to a cable or sat box/STB that gets uploaded operating instructions, including the DST Rules (programming). If the DVDR's FW has the old rules (Apr-Oct) and the box gets updated with the new rules (Mar-Nov), there is a "conflict" in the time base and time keeping functions. This affects DVDRs in different ways, including slowing disc ops, missed recordings, TVGOS (GMT tracking), and many other things that depend on the clock or time tracking in the DVDR and the attached STB. People on straight cable don't seem to have *any* DST-based problems? Edit: Apparently, even people on OTA can be affected (see post below).

I agree about that. I never had any problems with Auto Clock Set in the past on my VHS VCR and actually prefered it. Since Katrina, my local PBS station quit sending out the time. My Samsungs, even though I can tell it what station to use for the time, would randomly pick another station and change their time. Even with their clocks set to Manual my VR330 will still set itself an hour earlier every once in a while. This always seems to happen on a Sunday. Anyway, I wish I could rely on Auto Clock set.

I hate to go off on a tangent, but despite the great technology and automation there is today, I just wish I could buy something that actually worked as stated instead of having to work around problems or live with them. But I digress...

Virtually all the people with the DST Bug have their DVDRs connected to a cable or sat box/STB that gets uploaded operating instructions, including the DST Rules (programming). If the DVDR's FW has the old rules (Apr-Oct) and the box gets updated with the new rules (Mar-Nov), there is a "conflict" in the time base and time keeping functions. This affects DVDRs in different ways, including slowing disc ops, missed recordings, TVGOS (GMT tracking), and many other things that depend on the clock or time tracking in the DVDR and the attached STB. People on straight cable don't seem to have *any* DST-based problems?

My EZ17 was recording OTA at the time. No cable at all.

My EZ17 was recording OTA at the time. No cable at all.
Interesting, and good to know. I'll amend my post so as not to mislead (or give false sense of security)!

Fry's Electronics sales ad for their Illnois store now lists these for $149. I called and they said have 13 in stock plus the floor model. Both black & silver models available. I'm on my way there now to get one.

Thanks everyone! Hopefully I'll get some time this weekend to really play with it and post back my results.

Got my EZ17K up & running without any problems. I have Comcast expanded basic and no STB. After doing an automatic channel scan, some of my clear QAM channels showed up under their real channel numbers. Such as CBS at 116.1. But ABC shows up as 7.1, the mapped equivalent of analog OTA ABC channel 7. So 7.1 would be the correct mapping.

When I did a scan on my TV about a year ago, all the local clear QAM network channels were between 108.1 and 117.5. None of them mapped to the lower "old" channel numbers.

So why is the Panny showing some real channels and some mapped channels? ABC on my HDTV is 108.1. If I manually enter this on the Panny's remote it comes up "channel not available". I would think "forcing" the actual channel number would work, but it does not. I "added" 108, but I get a blank screen.

It would be nice if the Panny and the TV channels matched. Is there any way to add the 108.1 and 108.2? If the TV picks them up they have to be there, right?

I tried every possible combination I could think of and 480i component output was better than 480p component output. Even S-Video was better than 480p, and on par with the 480i. I don't know why component looked not as good. I use 480p component with my Panasonic ES20 and it looks great. Now I'll have to go back and play with it to make sure it's set up as good as can be. I just pulled out the old recorder & slipped in the new one, using the existing cables & connections. Not that the 480p is unwatchable, but it was not as good as the other settings. Perhaps they cheapened the circuitry in the new model

Anyway I'm happy with the PQ. Even looks good in the 4 hour LP mode, as someone else has mentioned.

As of 9am Sunday morning , the HD/DVR is at 0%.

Not on purpose.

*sigh*

Did some more experimenting. My previous message stating the 480i looked better than the 480p was done while playing back a DVD-RAM I just recorded of an HD program. And this still appears to be the case. However when playing a commercial DVD, 480i and 480p were indistinguishable from what I could tell on my 42" HDTV. Maybe differences would show up on a larger set, I don't know. Since I have nothing to lose with 480i, I'll keep it that way. And it's no big deal to switch to 480p if need be.

I then got my Panny ES20 hooked up also via component connections and it exhibits similar properties playing the same discs. So I'm going to leave it set up for 480i also. That way I can playback 16:9 DVD-RAM recordings made on the EZ17 with the best PQ that I am able to obtain. And again these look pretty good.

The DVD-RAM "test" disc was recorded in the 2 hour SP mode. Perhaps it would make a difference if it had been done in the 1 hour XP mode. I very seldom use XP because of its very limited time capacity. If I get ambitious I guess I could try this comparison. And also compare with a recording from an analog channel. But these take a back seat for now.

But this still makes me wonder why the differences. I understand DVDs, both commercial and home made, are recorded in the interlaced format.

So is my TV doing a better job of de-interlacing than the DVD recorder?

Does a commercial DVD have that much better MPEG processing and/or faster bit rate that it somehow puts less burden on the de-interlacing process? Thus it would make little/no difference where the de-interlacing is done?

So is my TV doing a better job of de-interlacing than the DVD recorder?

That is more than likely the correct answer.

So is my TV doing a better job of de-interlacing than the DVD recorder?

That is more than likely the correct answer.


I was searching old ES20 threads for something and came across a few comments that 480i was performing better than 480p. I probably didn't experiment back then because my ES20 seemed to work just fine either way, and still does with commercial DVDs. But it's the 16:9 that looks better with 480i.

Just a thought. Both the ES20 and the EZ17K record 720 x 480. Using the EZ17K and DVD-RAM, a 16:9 widescreen picture is recorded in full widescreen. So it uses all 720 pixels across for the image. The ES20 records only 4:3 analog and displays properly on a 4:3 TV. If I record the HD version of CSI & view on a 16:9 HDTV, 720 horizontal pixels are used for the width of the image. If I record the analog version of CSI using the ES20 and play back on a 4:3 TV, all 720 pixels are still used. But now they are used on a narrower image. I realize I will be missing picture content on the sides of the image with the 4:3 TV. But if the screen heights were the same, would this mean I actually have a sharper picture with the 4:3 set because the same number of pixels are used for a narrower/smaller picture?

If I record a 4:3 picture with either recorder and play back on a 16:9 TV, how are the black pillar bars added? Are they part of the 720 pixels used? Or is the Panny or the TV adding the black bars?

If I record the analog version of CSI using the ES20 and play back on a 4:3 TV, all 720 pixels are still used. But now they are used on a narrower image. I realize I will be missing picture content on the sides of the image with the 4:3 TV. But if the screen heights were the same, would this mean I actually have a sharper picture with the 4:3 set because the same number of pixels are used for a narrower/smaller picture?

If I record a 4:3 picture with either recorder and play back on a 16:9 TV, how are the black pillar bars added? Are they part of the 720 pixels used? Or is the Panny or the TV adding the black bars?


720x480 pixels is a widescreen resolution. 4:3 resolution is 640x480 (think PC VGA resolution). Encoding a DVD allows for a maximum of 720x480 pixels but does not have to use them all. The black pillar bars are either added by the recorder or your television on playback and are not part of the encoded material; as per DVD specs. Keep in mind, your recorder is only recording the source signal is being provided. It does not re-encode 4:3 material at 720x480 widescreen resolution.

But this still makes me wonder why the differences. I understand DVDs, both commercial and home made, are recorded in the interlaced format.

Does a commercial DVD have that much better MPEG processing and/or faster bit rate that it somehow puts less burden on the de-interlacing process? Thus it would make little/no difference where the de-interlacing is done?

Yes. A commercial DVD is encoded non-realtime, multipass for optimum encoding for the size disc it is on. While both adhere to NTSC television interlaced formats; the recorder is using a realtime, single pass, fixed bit rate encode to encode and compress the video to disc on the fly. Even assuming the quality of the encoder in the recorder is on par with commercial equipment, a commercial DVD will be of better quality than something recorded on a standalone DVD recorder.

720x480 pixels is a widescreen resolution. 4:3 resolution is 640x480 (think PC VGA resolution). Encoding a DVD allows for a maximum of 720x480 pixels but does not have to use them all. The black pillar bars are either added by the recorder or your television on playback and are not part of the encoded material; as per DVD specs. Keep in mind, your recorder is only recording the source signal is being provided. It does not re-encode 4:3 material at 720x480 widescreen resolution.


What happens when you play a commercial widescreen DVD on a 4:3 CRT set? Obviously the black letterbox bars are added. But how does it handle the 720 horizontal pixels? Is re-scaling done within the DVD player in order to reduce the horizontal resolution?

I'd have to think about it but I believe they do a rescale to fit it to a 4:3 display and add the black bars when set to letterbox display. Maybe someone else could explain it better.

That would be the exact opposite of the recording scenario you posed. The EZ17 when recording anamorphic widescreen material off of it's digital tuner will downrez to the full 720x480 resolution for recording. If only provided with 4:3 material in the first place, that is all it will encode as that is all the pixel information it is given.

Many of the DVD recorders actually half the horizontal resolution to go from SP to LP modes at the same bit rates(such as my Samsung VR130 and VR330) where as the Panasonics do not. NTSC television standards hold to the 480i vertical resolution but the horizontal resolution is variable and recorders will not encode any more than what information they are given and may choose to encode less horizontal resolution in order to fit more recording time on the disc.

I'm still trying to grasp all the quirks to this EZ17, but here is a real interesting one you might like to hear (mind you, I don't claim to have this completely figured out, but this is what seems to be going on to me).

When you set the output ("TV Type") of the player to 4:3/480i and then do a recording from the ATSC tuner, it is not recording an anamorphic widescreen image. It seems to be recording the "lame" way, with the letterbox image stuck in a 4:3 frame (i.e., unutilized vertical resolution above and below).

When you set the output of the player to 16:9/480i and then do a recording from the ATSC tuner, it then records an anamorphic widescreen image to the disc. Naturally, this will look distorted on an sdtv as you watch in realtime, with no aspect ratio correction (which you would expect).

I only tried this with a dvd-rw (yes, I am aware of the flag not supported thingy).

I will try a similar test with dvd-ram tomorrow.

Disagree with my findings? Discuss...I'm eager to read your viewpoints on my observations.

I'm still trying to grasp all the quirks to this EZ17, but here is a real interesting one you might like to hear (mind you, I don't claim to have this completely figured out, but this is what seems to be going on to me).

When you set the output ("TV Type") of the player to 4:3/480i and then do a recording from the ATSC tuner, it is not recording an anamorphic widescreen image. It seems to be recording the "lame" way, with the letterbox image stuck in a 4:3 frame (i.e., unutilized vertical resolution above and below).

When you set the output of the player to 16:9/480i and then do a recording from the ATSC tuner, it then records an anamorphic widescreen image to the disc. Naturally, this will look distorted on an sdtv as you watch in realtime, with no aspect ratio correction (which you would expect).

I only tried this with a dvd-rw (yes, I am aware of the flag not supported thingy).

I will try a similar test with dvd-ram tomorrow.

Disagree with my findings? Discuss...I'm eager to read your viewpoints on my observations.
Sounds good to me. The image is only scaled once and goes to both the video output and MPEG-2 encoder input.

@HomeVideoGuy
4:3 DVD's are not 640x480. They are 720x480, 704x480 or 352x480. These are the only resolutions allowed (for NTSC).

Ron

I'm still trying to grasp all the quirks to this EZ17, but here is a real interesting one you might like to hear (mind you, I don't claim to have this completely figured out, but this is what seems to be going on to me).

When you set the output ("TV Type") of the player to 4:3/480i and then do a recording from the ATSC tuner, it is not recording an anamorphic widescreen image. It seems to be recording the "lame" way, with the letterbox image stuck in a 4:3 frame (i.e., unutilized vertical resolution above and below).

When you set the output of the player to 16:9/480i and then do a recording from the ATSC tuner, it then records an anamorphic widescreen image to the disc. Naturally, this will look distorted on an sdtv as you watch in realtime, with no aspect ratio correction (which you would expect).

I only tried this with a dvd-rw (yes, I am aware of the flag not supported thingy).

I will try a similar test with dvd-ram tomorrow.

Disagree with my findings? Discuss...I'm eager to read your viewpoints on my observations.

So you are saying that the OUTPUT format of the DVDR (16:9 or 4:3) determines the format (anamorphic or letterboxed) that is recorded to the DVD?

That seems odd. I'll have to check it out on my EZ-17.

@HomeVideoGuy
4:3 DVD's are not 640x480. They are 720x480, 704x480 or 352x480. These are the only resolutions allowed (for NTSC).

Ron

Maybe I did not take into account DVD encoding standards. I found this that may help:

http://www.hdtvinfoport.com/HDTV-Resolution.html

So you are saying that the OUTPUT format of the DVDR (16:9 or 4:3) determines the format (anamorphic or letterboxed) that is recorded to the DVD?

That seems odd. I'll have to check it out on my EZ-17.

Yes, that is what it "appears" to be doing, from what I can tell, so far. It does seem odd from a user perspective, but I can see how this would come to be by virtue of simplifying the design from a manufacturer perspective.

I could still be mistaken about this, but I wanted to see what you all think of this.

I still haven't figured out how to make the other settings for dvd-ram and dvd-video do anything.

I'm still trying to grasp all the quirks to this EZ17, but here is a real interesting one you might like to hear (mind you, I don't claim to have this completely figured out, but this is what seems to be going on to me).

When you set the output ("TV Type") of the player to 4:3/480i and then do a recording from the ATSC tuner, it is not recording an anamorphic widescreen image. It seems to be recording the "lame" way, with the letterbox image stuck in a 4:3 frame (i.e., unutilized vertical resolution above and below).

When you set the output of the player to 16:9/480i and then do a recording from the ATSC tuner, it then records an anamorphic widescreen image to the disc. Naturally, this will look distorted on an sdtv as you watch in realtime, with no aspect ratio correction (which you would expect).

I only tried this with a dvd-rw (yes, I am aware of the flag not supported thingy).

I will try a similar test with dvd-ram tomorrow.

Disagree with my findings? Discuss...I'm eager to read your viewpoints on my observations.


I have my EZ17 set to output to a 16:9 display and recorded a widescreen HD program to DVD-RAM. It plays back just like a commercial widescreen DVD and fills the whole screen with no adjustments to the HDTV.

Using the same settings but then recorded to a DVD-R. When played back the image is anamorphic, that is squeezed horizontally. Height was full. I then set my HDTV to "Full" and the screen then fills out and looks just like it did with the DVD-RAM.

IOW it appears the DVD-RAM automatically does whatever it does to display a full widesreen, while with the DVD-R I have to tell the TV to fill the screen. As I'm typing this it makes me wonder if the TV is in the "Full" mode with the DVD-RAM. I'll have to check that out later.

Question - Is there any actual difference in PQ between using the two discs? IOW are all 720 horizontal pixels still preserved in the anamorphic DVD-R version? Are some of the pixels used to record the black pillar bars, or does the player add these?

It appears (no pun intended) that if you are going to use the EZ17 with a widescreen tv, then a lot of these recording issues end up working out on their own. It will record the widescreen program in anamorphic mode to disc (all pixels put to work, and nothing wasted on black bars), and it will appear as it should on your screen.

The calamity seems to happen when you use the EZ17 with a 4:3 sdtv. When I say "calamity", I don't mean to convey that there are any serious obstacles- just quirks. If you are none to particular about what gets recorded to disc, just that something gets recorded, then it pretty much does the job w/o fuss. If you are particular about getting that anamorphic recording working, then you have to put up with some of these quirks. Basically, you have to set the output as if you have a widescreen tv to get the anamorphic output to record. Naturally, this will look distorted as you watch it in realtime on an sdtv. Then when you playback the disc later on, that is when you get the opportunity to see the anamorphic program scaled to the proper frame (letterbox). I say "opportunity" because that may not happen automatically, depending on what disc you used, or you may have to make some setting in some menu somewhere (I haven't verified that this works, but that is the theory).
That really puts the EZ17 in a strange position. It works like it should and makes optimal widescreen recordings when used with a widescreen tv...but will it output 1080i directly from the ATSC tuner to your widescreen tv? Signs point to "no", as is the same with numerous other ATSC/dvd-recorder products out right now.

So maybe they intend you to better put this product to use with an sdtv?...but then you have to put up with watching a distorted image while recording, if you want that anamorphic recording. Otherwise, you can still watch widescreen programming in letterbox format, but then the recording is wasting pixels on black bars.

So it manages to serve both 4:3 and 16:9 users, but comes up a bit short in both realms relative to what the included technologies are capable of (this may catch some prospective buyers off-guard who suspect "z" should be possible since it has "x" and "y", but "z" is not there).

Question - Is there any actual difference in PQ between using the two discs? IOW are all 720 horizontal pixels still preserved in the anamorphic DVD-R version? Are some of the pixels used to record the black pillar bars, or does the player add these?


If it is an anamorphic recording than it should be encoding the picture with all available pixels on both types of discs. Since the DVD-R is not encoded with the widescreen flag, that would mean nothing is telling your TV it should stretch the picture horizontally and the TV is presenting it as 4:3 material and adding the black pillar bars.

Mr. Hanky's experiences may indicate that the EZ17's output setting could be affecting it's recording as well. I don't have a widescreen TV to confirm but am now wondering if my widescreen recordings are indeed letterboxed recordings. Unfortunately, I would not be surprised if this were the case since the EZ17's VSS audio output setting was affecting it's recording of the audio; resulting in the low/no audio problem originally experienced by myself and others.

I would be curious to see others results on a widescreen display.

So far I've only noticed this on one channel, my local clear QAM PBS station. It happens whether I record or not. IOW if using the EZ17 as a tuner the problem still shows up.

Basically some parts of the image fade in and out of focus. I first noticed this with background trees. Sometimes they looked sharp, sometimes not. If everything is stationary, then everything looks OK. On one program they were slowly zooming in on a framed pictured. I noticed the vertical sides of the picture frame changing back & forth from sharp to somewhat blurry. This kept alternating as long as the camera was zooming. I noticed this on several programs. It may just be the vertical lines that are affected but difficult to tell so far as even round objects have vertical components.

I'm wondering if something is happening when processing the pixels from the HD broadcast through the DVD recorder. But this PBS channel is 720p, and should pass the 720 through to the TV, which is also 720 native. So OTOH possibly no processing should be done in the horizontal direction across the screen. I dunno. ABC and FOX are also 720p and look just fine.

Anyone else notice this phenomenon?

Do you happen to have any of the DNR settings enabled?

Do you happen to have any of the DNR settings enabled?

Good idea.

I previously tried the DNR both ways when I was experimenting between 480p and 480i and S-Video connections. I could not tell any difference with the material I was recording at the time between the 480i and S-Video, but it did seem to help the 480p slightly. Since 480i looked the best I went back to the default DNR = On setting. However I was not recording the PBS channel at the time.

I'll go back & turn it off and see what happens.

Well I tried DNR both ways, and Cinema both ways. Even tried 480p again. Makes no difference. Picture focus still changes when objects move closer or further from the camera. Probably about 2 fluctuations per second. Still images remain sharp.

If this happened on every channel I would say it's the recorder's fault. But so far just the one channel. I'm going to try calling the TV station and see what they say. I'm guessing the reply will be to the effect that I'm the only one with the problem. OTOH perhaps their engineers may have come across this before. Could also be something with Comcast.

Now if I had a UHF antenna I could try the OTA PBS channel. Wonder what kind of hanging wire arrangement will work as an antenna.

I'm still trying to grasp all the quirks to this EZ17, but here is a real interesting one you might like to hear (mind you, I don't claim to have this completely figured out, but this is what seems to be going on to me).

When you set the output ("TV Type") of the player to 4:3/480i and then do a recording from the ATSC tuner, it is not recording an anamorphic widescreen image. It seems to be recording the "lame" way, with the letterbox image stuck in a 4:3 frame (i.e., unutilized vertical resolution above and below).

When you set the output of the player to 16:9/480i and then do a recording from the ATSC tuner, it then records an anamorphic widescreen image to the disc. Naturally, this will look distorted on an sdtv as you watch in realtime, with no aspect ratio correction (which you would expect).

I only tried this with a dvd-rw (yes, I am aware of the flag not supported thingy).

I will try a similar test with dvd-ram tomorrow.

Disagree with my findings? Discuss...I'm eager to read your viewpoints on my observations.


I just want to add a further comment.

As I previously mentioned: It appears the DVD-RAM automatically does whatever it does to display a full widesreen. I verified that it does automatically change my TV's settings from "Normal" to "Full". I can manually change the TV back to "Normal", which then shows the squeezed image.

With the DVD-R I have to manually switch the TV from the default "Normal" to "Full" screen in order to view a proper widescreen image.

So I can use the cheaper DVD-R discs if I want to save a widescreen program. It just takes an extra push of a remote button to view properly.

Well I tried DNR both ways, and Cinema both ways. Even tried 480p again. Makes no difference. Picture focus still changes when objects move closer or further from the camera. Probably about 2 fluctuations per second. Still images remain sharp.

If this happened on every channel I would say it's the recorder's fault. But so far just the one channel. I'm going to try calling the TV station and see what they say. I'm guessing the reply will be to the effect that I'm the only one with the problem. OTOH perhaps their engineers may have come across this before. Could also be something with Comcast.

Now if I had a UHF antenna I could try the OTA PBS channel. Wonder what kind of hanging wire arrangement will work as an antenna.Sounds like a problem with excessive compression on that channel.

Does that channel have a lot of subchannels OTA (or is it one of the subchannels itself)? Many OTA PBS channels do. If so, that would surely explain things. Even if your cable company's not degrading the quality, they're already getting it that way from the station. I have a feeling that if you call, they're just gonna act dumb about it. Or try to misplace the blame on your "display" or "wiring".

Our main PBS channel here is 720p and has three subs. Needless to say, the 2nd and 3rd subs look like crap and can only be tolerated on the smallest of screens.

A lot of my highly overcompressed SD E*channels suffer from what your describing, also. Everything's fine until even the slightest movement takes place.

Here's the neat stuff I discovered last night: (this mostly applies to 4:3 tv users)

Yes, it appears the best functionality (regarding proper framing) is available when you record to dvd-ram, because it all comes down to setting that flag (or preserving that setting). If the program does not contain the flag, then the extra framing settings do nothing, regardless of how you set them.

So, the procedure to make this thing "do tricks" is to record with the "tv setting" in 480i/16:9. That will ensure the recording contains the full anamorphic widescreen image. It's probably the place where you are electing to enable the flag, as well.

Once you have the recording, switch the "tv setting" back to 480i/4:3.

Now here is where you get to play around with the "dvd-ram playback for 4:3" settings (wording may not be exactly right, but hopefully you get what I am referring to). When it is set to "letterbox" and you play the anamorphic recording, it will properly expand and letterbox the image on your 4:3 tv.

When it is set to "pan-and-scan" and you play the anamorphic recording, it will fill the screen with a properly scaled image (not distorted). If the program is widescreen, then the sides are chopped off, naturally. Now here is the trick- if the program is 4:3, then this setting will allow you to ditch those black pillar bars. Neat, eh? (It still a scale-up, so you are losing some horizontal resolution that would have been available in the original hd broadcast, but you are still getting the full benefit of all vertical resolution that could fit in an sd resolution. Panasonic could have done this function better with just an incremental amount of additional work, but hey, it offers "a" solution vs. nothing, at all.)

When it is set to "4:3" and you play the anamorphic recording, it just shows you exactly what you recorded (which will be the anamorphic frame that appears distorted when viewed on an sdtv). So maybe this is a good way to verify what you recorded is, indeed, anamorphic, and not just a letterbox stuck in a 4:3 frame?

As a sidenote, widescreen hdtv users should probably keep the "tv setting" on 480p/16:9 and the "dvd-ram playback for 4:3" set to 4:3. That way the player is sending deinterlaced anamorphic with the flag to your display to display accordingly* (that's just a guess on my part...other's feel free to verify). Choice of 480i vs. 480p setting is probably dependent on if you feel the player or your display can do the better job of deinterlacing the program.

* If you set it to "letterbox", that might not be right (even though intuitively that would seem a more likely choice than "4:3" or "pan-and-scan"), that will be like telling the player to letterbox the program in a 4:3 frame, and then sending that to your display, which may in turn pillar box it, on top of the letterbox image?...result- too many black bars! I'm just guessing here. Let me know if this is incorrect.

I'm considering picking up an EZ17 from the Best Buy outlet on ebay. I've read the manual and have a couple of questions about the editing process.

- If I record to a DVD-R, can I go back before I finalize and create chapters at every commercial and delete those chapters, or is this only possible with DVD-RAM?

- Can I pause/resume while recording to a DVD-R? If so, is each pause a new chapter?

- Lastly, for those of you who have bought from the ebay Best Buy outlet, how long did shipping take?

Thanks

Sounds like a problem with excessive compression on that channel.

Does that channel have a lot of subchannels OTA (or is it one of the subchannels itself)? Many OTA PBS channels do. If so, that would surely explain things. Even if your cable company's not degrading the quality, they're already getting it that way from the station. I have a feeling that if you call, they're just gonna act dumb about it. Or try to misplace the blame on your "display" or "wiring".

Our main PBS channel here is 720p and has three subs. Needless to say, the 2nd and 3rd subs look like crap and can only be tolerated on the smallest of screens.

A lot of my highly overcompressed SD E*channels suffer from what your describing, also. Everything's fine until even the slightest movement takes place.


I called my local PBS station, WTTW-D, and spoke with a person in engineering. I explained the problem I was having. They brought up the subchannel topic before I got to mention it. That they have 3 subchannels and this could be causing the problem. Perhaps too much compression & borrowing too many bits from the HD channel. He was glad this was brought to his attention and did not think anything was wrong with my recorder. And this may also cause a problem with some new set top boxes. He said he will look into it & maybe there is something he can do without hurting something else.

It was a pleasant conversation and I was most impressed that he took the time to discuss the problem with me. He even asked for the Panasonic model number. Perhaps he'll get one to try. I realize there is only so much can they can do and hopefully something can be tweaked and improved. I'll just have to wait & see what happens now.

That's great. You sure got a better response than we did. A bunch of people on our OTA thread had either called or e-mailed WTTW back when they first downgraded the 1080i HD channel to 720p and added Create, and they refused to even acknowledge the degraded quality in the HD channel. They said it looked just as good to them as before. Most of us are still P.O.'ed about it. And since then, of course, they've even added another sub.

I forgot you were in the Chicago market also when I responded. I don't know if our old, OTA thread is in the archives (we've since closed it and started a new one), but if you want some interesting reading, check it out sometime.

That's great. You sure got a better response than we did. A bunch of people on our OTA thread had either called or e-mailed WTTW back when they first downgraded the 1080i HD channel to 720p and added Create, and they refused to even acknowledge the degraded quality in the HD channel. They said it looked just as good to them as before. Most of us are still P.O.'ed about it. And since then, of course, they've even added another sub.

I forgot you were in the Chicago market also when I responded. I don't know if our old, OTA thread is in the archives (we've since closed it and started a new one), but if you want some interesting reading, check it out sometime.


Just curious, do you recall when they changed from 1080i to 720p? I've been getting the clear QAM channels for about 2 yrs and as far as I can remember they were 720p at that time.

Just curious, do you recall when they changed from 1080i to 720p? I've been getting the clear QAM channels for about 2 yrs and as far as I can remember they were 720p at that time.It was at least a couple of years ago.

It was much better than it is now. The HD stuff truly had that "looking out a window" effect.

It was definitely noticable, but still wasn't that bad until they added V-Me.

As of 9am Sunday morning , the HD/DVR is at 0%.

Not on purpose.

*sigh*

Hey guys, still having fun over here? Tuesday, I gave up on Comcast and got the $299 HD TIVO. Now I can't get stuff to burn onto DVD (but from my PC now) that the Panny wants to actually recognize and (god forbid) play.

I'm over at the EZ47 thread because the EZ17 isn't DivX Certified hardware (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11896144#post11896144).

Since I'm hung up on "PC -> DVD" at the moment, I have no special insights on TIVO to DVD-R... YET. ;)

An SD analog NTSC TV signal has a 4.2MHz bandwidth for the video.
A DVD has 6.8MHz.

Does the Panasonic EZ17K down-res an ATCS or QAM HD signal to 4.2MHz or to 6.8Mhz video bandwidth when recording?

Hey guys, still having fun over here? Tuesday, I gave up on Comcast and got the $299 HD TIVO. Now I can't get stuff to burn onto DVD (but from my PC now) that the Panny wants to actually recognize and (god forbid) play.

I'm over at the EZ47 thread because the EZ17 isn't DivX Certified hardware (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11896144#post11896144).

Since I'm hung up on "PC -> DVD" at the moment, I have no special insights on TIVO to DVD-R... YET. ;)

How are you getting things from your HD Tivo to your PC? Last I read, Tivo hasn't enabled TivoToGo on the Series 3's yet. Are you rerecoring it into your PC?

When in the Chase Play mode the DVD drive sounds like a hard drive searching for data. This evening every few seconds we could heard it. I never heard this with my ES20. I've been erasing all the programs from DVD-RAM discs after I watch them, so this was on blank disc with a fresh 2 hr recording in progress. Makes me wonder if re-formatting the discs periodically would make a difference. Or I just have a noisy drive that I can hear from 12 feet away while playing a program, with a speaker about a foot from the recorder. So it is quite noticeable.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Yeah, I can hear this, too. Sounds like the hard drive from an old computer from the early 90's. ;) The construction of the device, in general, seems pretty lightweight, as well, so that probably does help to conduct the sound of disc access noise even more so.

I tried simultaneous play and recording once and immediately noticed the extra racket from the disc drive. It "sounds" like it is really being put to task, so I probably won't bother with this function much, unless a necessity. Maybe, it is built to do this and it just sounds worse than it really is, but I just can't help the feeling that I am abusing it. ;)

It's not my primary recording device, anyway. I chase play on my other hdd/dvd-recorder all of the time with no worries (and not a hint of noise).

My other complaints on this dvd recorder (while we're on the subject) is the generally pokey response to do just about anything when I have "engaged" from the remote. It's always a matter of pressing the button and then waiting for the machine to do it, then hit the next button... My primary recorder is downright punctual, by comparison. I press the button, and by time I look up at the tv, it is there waiting for me to do the next step. I can mash a sequence of buttons and I'll be fairly confident it will keep up with me.

Also, entering and exiting recording mode always seems to involve some sort of lag or updating some file directory before it is "done". It just feels like a very tedious process for it to achieve.

Deleting programs or erasing rw/ram discs seem all the more palatial given that it doesn't at least return to the tuner to let you watch tv while it does it (instead, you have to wait at a silent menu screen as a progress bar expands in crude, coarse increments- 5%...33%...66%...done). This device just doesn't win any awards for refinement, even by accident.

The various onscreen displays seem to skimp on use of transparencies (a pretty common flashiness for contemporary AV products, by now). You can see it done in some onscreen stuff, but then utterly absent in others (where it really could use it, since it covers a considerable amount of screen real estate). If you have to go into any of the setup menus, forgeddaboudit! You are stuck in bland opaque menu land.

The reliability of the scheduled recording stills seems sketchy, though I haven't had enough opportunity to watch it trigger a whole lot, so far. I'll need to evaluate it a bit longer to get a better idea. As others have discovered, it needs to be off, to allow the scheduling to activate (which again, seems pretty primitive in a "vcr" kinda way).

I've elected to switch the display from "automatic" to "dim", so it is at least activated and providing feedback whether the unit is on or off. That way I can keep an eye on that "red clock" to verify that it is at least intending to trigger when a recording time bears near. In "automatic" mode, it's completely lights-out when the unit is off, so you have no idea what it is about to do, if the "red clock" is in effect, or if it even knows the correct time. Either it is going to spring to life or do nothing whatsoever as that recording time arrives, but it is somewhat of a big mystery if that front display is blacked out.

As is mentioned frequently in various other topics- best practice seems to set the clock manually and disable DST. I haven't had much difficulty in this area, but haven't strayed from the recommended settings, either. The clock wouldn't set automatically, anyway, for me. I can also stand to run with no DST for the time being, as I trial this thing out. When DST does arrive this fall, I may get feisty to see what happens when I engage the function.

Thankfully, I have not experienced any of the freezes or lockups that have been reported in previous topics for the earlier builds of the EZ family.

The basic functionality is there for what is "cited on the box", so to speak. It is just in need of some serious polishing and refinement to make it feel like a well-sorted product, imo.

I'm considering picking up an EZ17 from the Best Buy outlet on ebay. I've read the manual and have a couple of questions about the editing process.

- If I record to a DVD-R, can I go back before I finalize and create chapters at every commercial and delete those chapters, or is this only possible with DVD-RAM?

Nope. Only with DVD-RAM


- Can I pause/resume while recording to a DVD-R? If so, is each pause a new chapter?

Yes, you can pause/resume. Chapters are 5 to 8 minutes, regardless, depending on type of disk.


- Lastly, for those of you who have bought from the ebay Best Buy outlet, how long did shipping take?

Less than a week. Unit was in like new condition, and nothing was missing. I'm very pleased with it.

A few other observations:

- To finalize, just eject the disk and you'll be prompted. It's easier than digging through the menus.

- 480P output over component is vastly superior to S-Video. On some of my dvd players there's not much visible difference, but in this case, the difference is huge.

Just curious, do you recall when they changed from 1080i to 720p? I've been getting the clear QAM channels for about 2 yrs and as far as I can remember they were 720p at that time.

WTTW-D switched to 720p the first week of January in 2006. As Ramm said, I'm one of the ones that is still PO'd about it. If you want to view the old Chicago OTA thread here is link to where it started.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=6865695&postcount=1934

So, I received my EZ17 almost two weeks ago and so far things are working good! I've had no problems recording 16:9 TV shows via the ATSC tuner onto DVD-RW and having them play back perfectly on my 16:9 TV. Having to wait for the unit to finalize a disc so I can play it back on another DVD is a bit of a pain but I'll trade that for the quality over VHS! I am a little concerned that my unit is a January 2007 build so it's, obvioulsy, one of the first units out there.

All that said, I do have a question on using the FR (flexible recording) mode. Last night I wanted to record two hour-long shows. Not wanting to miss the beginning/ends or if something was amiss, I wanted to use the FR mode to get 2:04 on the disc. I also wanted to use two separate programs so I could have them "physically" separated on the disc. When I tried to set the programs to run from 8:58 to 10:00 and from 10:00 to 11:02 and used FR mode, I received an "!" for the second program. It appears that it used FR mode for the first program, was going to fill the entire disc with that program and was telling me there wasn't enough room on the disc. I did not get a "timer overlap error code". I looked but couldn't find a way to tell the unit that I had 2:04 available on the disc and to put those two programs on it. What I ended up doing, since both shows were on the same channel, was set one program to run from 8:58 to 11:02, using FR mode and it seemed to work just fine. Unfortunately, this means I couldn't "physically" separate the two programs on the disc. I then got to thinking that if the shows were on different channels, is it even possible to use FR mode with timer recordings? I don't see in the manual how you can go in and, basically, default the FR mode to a specific time and then timer record (on varying channels) all you want. Is this possible?

FR mode fits the recording to the time available on the disc. If the first timer setting is set to FR mode on a new disc, then it will fill the disc with that recording leaving no room for the second recording; unless you somehow changed discs between timer settings. There is really no other way it could work, at least automatically w/o more user intervention. I know the feeling however, as there are times I set mine to record for a whole week on one disc but would really prefer shows earlier in the week to be compressed less for better quality rather than those later in the week to fit the disc.

Also, in the scenario you proposed, there would be no "timer overlap" error. The Panny's automatically give priority to the earlier timer setting, recording that one in full, and picking up the later timer setting in progress.

TonyS -

You cannot do two FR modes programs the way you described. Essentially what you are doing is telling the machine to fill the disc with the first program. And then there is no room to add a second program.

I've only had the EZ17 for about a week, but do have an ES20 and use the FR mode a lot and here's what I do. It seems to behave the same on both units. Let's say you want to record two 1-hr programs in the SP mode. I schedule the first one to record from, per your example, 8:58 to 10:00 is SP. Then I schedule the second program from 10:00 to 11:02 in FR mode. While the second program is not really SP, it sure is close. So save the FR mode for the last pragram on the disc. Or the only program if there is only one.

Sometimes the FR recording ends a few seconds too early. I've even received messages that the program could not be completed because the disc was full. The program was there, but ended a bit short. It's usually only a few seonds. So it is wise to program an additional 1 or 2 minutes at the end.

The only glitch you may have is a slight few seconds time delay between programs. It does not instantly change programs at 10:00. If you don't want to miss anything and both programs are on the same channel I suggest a straight thru recording. Perhaps creating a chapter break (if that can be done with DVD-RW) at the right spot will give you what you need. Or ending the first program 1 minute early and missing the credits or next weeks highlights.

HVG & Mike99 - Thanks for the feedback - that's exactly how I thought the unit was working but wanted to make sure I didn't overlook something.

Mike99 - Thanks for the tip on doing the first recording at SP and the second at a FR just under SP. :)

Mr. Hanky -

Thanks for the reply. I considered exchanging the unit, but I guess I'm not alone experiencing the noisy drive. My older ES20, which is also a basic model, is not this noisy. Neither unit has a HDD and I sometimes do use chase play. I'll wait & see how annoying it really gets.

It is slow in some respects compared to the ES20. The first time there was big delay, I thought the unit locked up & I turned it off. Another time I just waited & everything worked OK. However I don't recall what series of buttons I pushed to cause the "lock up".

I have not experienced any problems with scheduled recordings. Reliability here is most important to me because I do mostly time shifting and am not around to turn on the recorder.

I also keep the front panel display set to dim. I do not use a STB and feed Comcast cable directly into the unit and so far it has set the clock properly & keeps time correctly. I'll have to watch when DST ends this fall & make sure the clock stays correct.

FWIW, mine has a build date of Aug 2007, so it's really recent.

I do like the PQ and have been using SP mode. I did try LP just to experiment & it looked just as good, at least on the material I recorded. I'm guessing there will be some pixelation on fast moving objects, just as there is on the ES20.

I like this player and I am planning on getting one, but have one question. I have some shows on my HD-DVR that are widescreen, if I record them to the Panny through the S-video, will it remain in widescreen?

Will it record widescreen? Yes... but the widescreen flag for your DVD player's benifit is not set. That means it's recorded in 4:3 aspect, but the full widescreen picture is compressed to fit (if you so choose). So none of the picture is lost. Here's how mine is setup. For recording, the DVR output is set to 16:9 and the Panasonic TV type is 16:9 480p and the Panasonic 4:3 TV setting for DVD is Letterbox(shrink to fit). When I play back on the Panasonic with my TV set to 4:3 fullscreen, I get widescreen just like the original. Looks just like a commercial DVD. When I play back on another DVD player, I set it's output to 4:3 as well (not 16:9), and I get widescreen. That's how it works on my TV anyway. I'm not sure how it looks on a standard 4:3 TV. Also, you definitely should use the component outputs instead of S-Video for playback.

And if you want the best price and don't mine slightly used, check ebay. I got mine there for under $70 shipped and it's practically mint.

Good luck.

Will it record widescreen? Yes... but the widescreen flag for your DVD player's benifit is not set. That means it's recorded in 4:3 aspect, but the full widescreen picture is compressed to fit (if you so choose). So none of the picture is lost. Here's how mine is setup. For recording, the DVR output is set to 16:9 and the Panasonic TV type is 16:9 480p and the Panasonic 4:3 TV setting for DVD is Letterbox(shrink to fit). When I play back on the Panasonic with my TV set to 4:3 fullscreen, I get widescreen just like the original. Looks just like a commercial DVD. When I play back on another DVD player, I set it's output to 4:3 as well (not 16:9), and I get widescreen. That's how it works on my TV anyway. I'm not sure how it looks on a standard 4:3 TV. Also, you definitely should use the component outputs instead of S-Video for playback.

And if you want the best price and don't mine slightly used, check ebay. I got mine there for under $70 shipped and it's practically mint.

Good luck.

Thanks for your help, I just want to make sure the DVD recorder can record widescreen from the DVRs s-video output to the s-video input of the DVD recorder before I purchase it.

I would only be using the s-video output from the DVR to the s-video input in order to record the dvds, when playing/watching a DVD, it will be setup to use the component outputs. Oh, and my TV is widescree.

I have the Panasonic DMR-EZ475V recorder which is similar to the EZ17. It's connected to the Panasonic 42" plasma via component video.

When playing DVD, I noticed that if I set the output to progressive, the picture is darker than if the output is set to interlanced. On OTA HD channels, progressive output looks sharper and better than interlanced output. However on DVDs, interlanced has the correct black level. Progressive output has less shadow detail.

Am I missing some setting? I tried the black level setting, setting the output to 'light' (rather than normal), OTA channels looks too bright.

My display is calibrated using my Toshiba DVD player and Video Essential.

Thanks!

It does seem to have a strange configuration of "lighter/darker" settings regarding input and outputs. I and others have remarked that they seem strange, but maybe somebody else here with a higher level understanding of why they made it the way they did can explain it?

To add another comment on usage, I've noticed that if I record on a dvd-rw, finalize, and then put that in my Toshiba hdd/dvd recorder, the disc seems to be blocked from recording. Now when I say that, I don't mean I intend to record on the dvd-rw (as I would not expect to since it is not supported format in the machine, and it is finalized to be read-only, at that point). What I mean is that the disc will not allow me to high-speed dub anything on the dvd-rw disc onto my hdd (as if it has been set to record-once protection). I can only play stuff off the disc.

Anybody else notice this behavior on dvd-rw? Is it different for dvd+rw (or any of the other recordable disc formats, for that matter)? Dvd-ram seems to work like it should, however. I can read/record from whatever to whatever, at will.

I have the Panasonic DMR-EZ475V recorder which is similar to the EZ17. It's connected to the Panasonic 42" plasma via component video.

When playing DVD, I noticed that if I set the output to progressive, the picture is darker than if the output is set to interlanced. On OTA HD channels, progressive output looks sharper and better than interlanced output. However on DVDs, interlanced has the correct black level. Progressive output has less shadow detail.

Am I missing some setting? I tried the black level setting, setting the output to 'light' (rather than normal), OTA channels looks too bright.

My display is calibrated using my Toshiba DVD player and Video Essential.

Thanks!

I noticed a change in lightness/darkness when I was experimenting with interlaced & progressive settings & connections. Sometimes when I went back & forth between 480p and 480i I notice the picture brightness changed. IOW, 480p looked OK, then tried 480i and it looked OK. Then went back to 480p and it was darker than before. Or going back to 480i was lighter. Obviously I was upset & turned off the recorder & thought about trying a reset. However when I turned it back on the brightness was back to normal.

I believe the default settings for black level are correct. I initially did play with these, but none of the changes seemed to bring the lightness/darkness back to normal. Turning off the unit seemed to do the trick. I did this several times and the results were always the same - turning off/on set brightness back to normal. I also have an older ES20 and the default black levels are the same. I think there was an ES20 thread in which black levels were discussed, and again defaults were correct. Of course your TV may handle things differently.

On both my EZ17 and ES20, component 480i looks better than component 480p when playing back a recording of an HD program made with the EZ17 onto DVD-RAM. When playing a commercial DVD, I cannot tell a difference. See my earlier comments in this thread. The conclusion is that my Sony HDTV is doing a better job of deinterlacing than the DVD recorder. But again, your TV may perform differently.

I suggest first setting the black levels back to default. Then set to 480p and turn the recorder off/on. Then either make a recording of an HD program or just tune in an HD channel & use the Panny as a tuner. Then try the same with 480i. Let me know what happens.

It does seem to have a strange configuration of "lighter/darker" settings regarding input and outputs. I and others have remarked that they seem strange, but maybe somebody else here with a higher level understanding of why they made it the way they did can explain it?

Here's a link I happened to save from a while back. Hopefully it can answer at least some of your black level questions.

http://www.signvideo.com/dv-black-levels-dvd-authoring-mpeg-2-part-1.htm

Thanks for the link, but my own concerns regarding the EZ17 is why there is only "lighter" or "darker" setting for some of the inputs/outputs? Why isn't there a "normal" setting? Why can I only choose between a setting that makes it either too light or too dark? If one of them is just a unity setting, why don't they just call that "normal"? If this functionality is there just to help out dv users, why not just make it act upon the dv input, rather than mess with what goes on with all the other input/outputs?

It just strikes me as an oddity with this model.

Here are more pros/cons observations for the EZ-17:

A nice thing about the built-in ATSC tuner is when when you make a recording, it electronically knows the name of the program (per the schedule info digitally transmitted via ATSC) and automatically names your recording as such.

You can also use the "status" button to view the name of the current program, as well as the next program.

Unfortunately, there isn't a button to bring up a full schedule of programs for the day (in the event you want to check what is beyond just the "next" program or programs on other channels). I can agree this may be beyond the scope of what a dvd recorder is supposed to do, but it is just something I noticed oddly missing compared to my older Samsung ATSC tuner which will display such information. The EZ-17 tuner does lock in the digital stations better (or keep a more consistent/stronger signal) than my Samsung tuner, though. That is definitely an improvement.

The Samsung hdtv tuner (SIR-T351) will actually pass hdtv via dvi and component outputs. ;) It's an older generation of electronics than the EZ-17, no doubt, but it still has better looking (and faster responding) menus than the EZ-17...transparencies just look more high-tech. The Samsung has far poorer scheduling capabilities, however (which is somewhat expected since it is simply a tuner, not a vcr-style recording device).

What I'm getting at is it is somewhat give-and-take in features/niceties between the Samsung tuner and the EZ-17 when it comes to functions they share. The Samsung has got to be at least 2 generations older than the EZ-17, so I somewhat expect the EZ should trump it in any category (yet it does not).

Thanks for the link, but my own concerns regarding the EZ17 is why there is only "lighter" or "darker" setting for some of the inputs/outputs? Why isn't there a "normal" setting? Why can I only choose between a setting that makes it either too light or too dark? If one of them is just a unity setting, why don't they just call that "normal"? If this functionality is there just to help out dv users, why not just make it act upon the dv input, rather than mess with what goes on with all the other input/outputs?

It just strikes me as an oddity with this model.


I understand what you are saying. There were some threads on this topic a year or so ago. If I recall, some brands did not properly record the black level and there were no adjustmentsl. And supposedly Panny did it correctly. You might try searching for "black level" and see if any additional information is still available.

Just had first hard lock-up with this unit. The Santa Ana winds are really playing havoc with digital ota reception. The broadcast was dropping in and out pretty much in sync with big wind gusts. Perhaps, this interference was enough to crash the tuner and subsequently the entire unit? It was unresponsive to any button input (including the power button), so I had to pull the power plug.

why there is only "lighter" or "darker" setting for some of the inputs/outputs? Why isn't there a "normal" setting?

I looked at the link posted here on black level, my take is "lighter" refers to 7.5 IRE black level, ie, on most NTSC analog equipments, such as 8mm, Hi8, VHS, etc. "darker" refers to 0 IRE black level, those produced by the analog output of MiniDV equipment. I guess the 'lighter' one could be called 'normal'.

Anyone know if 480p output defaults to 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE? Is the difference I am seeing between 480p and 480i a bug in the recorder, or because the spec for 480p defaults to 0 IRE?

I looked at the link posted here on black level, my take is "lighter" refers to 7.5 IRE black level, ie, on most NTSC analog equipments, such as 8mm, Hi8, VHS, etc. "darker" refers to 0 IRE black level, those produced by the analog output of MiniDV equipment. I guess the 'lighter' one could be called 'normal'.

Anyone know if 480p output defaults to 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE? Is the difference I am seeing between 480p and 480i a bug in the recorder, or because the spec for 480p defaults to 0 IRE?


Did you try turning the recorder off then on after you chose either 480i or 480p? I recall that I had turned off the "Instant On" feature when I did this. I believe I failed to mention this step in my earlier posting. I think I discovered this because the EZ17 was set one way & the ES20 the other way and I tried to figure out why one got corrected & the other did not. Give that a try.

Did you try turning the recorder off then on after you chose either 480i or 480p? I recall that I had turned off the "Instant On" feature when I did this. I believe I failed to mention this step in my earlier posting. I think I discovered this because the EZ17 was set one way & the ES20 the other way and I tried to figure out why one got corrected & the other did not. Give that a try.

I performed the test last night. First set the player to 480p, then turn off the player (instant-on is off). Again HD channels (PBS-HD, the only one I can receive indoor reliably) looks very nice. When I toggle progressive on/off, the ON setting clearly produced better results for PBS. Picture is smoother, letters looks finer.

However, on DVD, even if coming out of powered-off state in 480p, it's still darker. The particular one I am testing with is Star Trek TNG. I detect no difference between progressive 480p coming out of power-on, vs toggling on/off in the display menu.

The black level setting on the player is set to 'normal' for component-out.

I performed the test last night. First set the player to 480p, then turn off the player (instant-on is off). Again HD channels (PBS-HD, the only one I can receive indoor reliably) looks very nice. When I toggle progressive on/off, the ON setting clearly produced better results for PBS. Picture is smoother, letters looks finer.

However, on DVD, even if coming out of powered-off state in 480p, it's still darker. The particular one I am testing with is Star Trek TNG. I detect no difference between progressive 480p coming out of power-on, vs toggling on/off in the display menu.

The black level setting on the player is set to 'normal' for component-out.


Just to make I understand correctly, from this & your previous message, you say 480p looks too dark but 480i looks correct. Is this with both commercial DVDs and ones that you recorded from an HD channel? And your HD channel using 480p is smoother, but how is the brightness?

I don't know what to tell you. Perhaps your TV is handling the signal a lot differently than mine. I'm not implying better or worse, just different.

Both of my Pannys are set to Input Level = Darker, Output (Composite) = Lighter, Output (Component) = Normal. I have not played too many comercial DVDs on the EZ17, but what I have tried looks correct. My comparisons have been with some HD programs recorded to DVD-RAM versus the same HD programs fed directly to my TV. Using component 480i looked better than 480p as far sharpness. And if playing with settings made the picture too light or too dark, powering down somehow reset the brightness to what I would have to say is correct, basically because it matched the HD direct feed to the TV.

Have you previously played your Star Trek DVD on a different DVD player and/or TV? If so, do you recall how the picture looked?

Just had first hard lock-up with this unit.It was unresponsive to any button input (including the power button), so I had to pull the power plug.

That's what I did the first time, too. There is a reset button under the front panel (page 55 of the instruction manual). Also, you're supposed to be able to unfreeze the unit by holding the Power button for more than ten seconds.

Thank you for the info. I will try it out, if it locks up again.

I will check for that reset button- never noticed anything like that in there when I last looked.

Strange...I found that my ez-17 had actually locked-up while it was off! :eek: (...or maybe it just locked-up immediately upon start-up, and I didn't notice as I hit the power button) Anyways, the "10-sec power button reset" trick does work, it seems. ;) It certainly feels a lot more safe than pulling the plug to break out of a hard lock.

Another operational quirk I discovered is it doesn't seem to leave a chapter point if you are recording on dvd-ram, pause while recording, and then resume recording. Anybody else notice this?

I know there was a question earlier (left unanswered?) if it will do this while recording to dvd-r, but it may not if it cannot even do this on dvd-ram (unless it explicitly handles these 2 media's differently). This strikes me as strange, as I didn't think it was possible to not introduce a chapter point if you pause during a recording.

Another operational quirk I discovered is it doesn't seem to leave a chapter point if you are recording on dvd-ram, pause while recording, and then resume recording. Anybody else notice this?

I know there was a question earlier (left unanswered?) if it will do this while recording to dvd-r, but it may not if it cannot even do this on dvd-ram (unless it explicitly handles these 2 media's differently). This strikes me as strange, as I didn't think it was possible to not introduce a chapter point if you pause during a recording.
The Philips 3575 also doesn't insert a chapter mark at a pause point.

To be fair with my earlier comment, you can put a chapter mark down when paused. It just won't do it for you automatically. While paused, just hit the "create chapter" button on the remote. ;)

UPDATE: (to the remark above) Upon perusal of the instruction manual, the wording suggests the chapter create function is only available for dvd-ram discs. For the person that asked about this earlier in the topic, regarding dvd-r discs, it's not looking good on that request (yeah, I could actually try it out and report back to you, but I don't feel like blowing a dvd-r disc just to find out- sorry ;) ).

Afaict, there is no automatic chapter create setting, either (you know, the thing that puts down a chapter mark every 10 min or something like that).