http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56550

Some are reporting larger file sizes and full resolution. It figures since I just deactivated my hacked HDtivo.

HDTVFanatic??? Can you take a look?

1920x1088 is not a recognized HD standard. It would still not be considered real HD. ;)

1920x1088 is not a recognized HD standard. It would still not be considered real HD. ;)
smart ass. :p

I hope this is true. I haven't watched much HD from D* this summer.

I will say that my recording of Living with Kombia looked outstanding to me. I'm glad to see evidence of a 1920 wide pixel count again.


I wonder how many people will not even read the link before they slam D* for poor picture quality. Probably many.

Interesting... I'll definitely check this out when I get home tonight. Can anyone test bitrates?

I'm watching, more listening, Get Out right now and if they are doing this at 1920 they have some work to do. It's pretty easy to check because they are wearing bikinis and you can see the color in their bodies kinda changing when they are moving around. Not the mention the water can become blocky at times.

I'm watching, more listening, Get Out right now and if they are doing this at 1920 they have some work to do. It's pretty easy to check because they are wearing bikinis and you can see the color in their bodies kinda changing when they are moving around. Not the mention the water can become blocky at times.
I would watch discoveryHD to see if its been changed.

I would watch discoveryHD to see if its been changed.
Just saw the commercial for Club 1080 and saw blocking on a lot of scenes. Still looks the same to me.

Blocking wouldn't mean that the resolution wasn't increased - only that the bandwidth was still insufficeint.

Entourage from Sunday night on HBO was still 1280x1088. If they do bump all of the channels back up to 1920x1088, lets hope they up the bit rate too.

Blocking wouldn't mean that the resolution wasn't increased - only that the bandwidth was still insufficeint.
What KSP said. If they are going to up one they need to up the other.

Kind of strange that they would do this now, considering the MPEG2 HD channels are on the way out.

Perhaps this is having a good side effect...

http://www.tvpredictions.com/comcastdish050107.htm

Of course, changing the resolution alone won't change the outcome of any test like that, but it does make it harder for Comcast to point to something more easily understood by a layperson (resolution) than bitrates.

This is really good news! Has anyone been able to see or measure if the resolution is 1920x1080i? My system is currenlty down getting some work done on it.

Sure bandwidth could be higher, however I think this is a good start. And MAYBE with the new bird, the bandwidth problem could be fixed.

Another link...

http://www.comcast.com/hdchallenge/

Just to note, if they up the resolution, yet keep the same bandwitdth. Chances are the picture will look worse not better.

People think the problem with HD-Lite is resolution, no, its bitrates.

Just to note, if they up the resolution, yet keep the same bandwitdth. Chances are the picture will look worse not better.

People think the problem with HD-Lite is resolution, no, its bitrates.

The trade-off is pretty complex. I think D*'s bitrates (13-14 Mbps) are high enough that, with the right tweaking, rateshaping the original 1920x1080i feeds should usually look better than reducing the resolution to 1280x1080i and recompressing.

Hmmmmm. . . .

I thought Discovery HD looked not so good last night so whatever they are doing it is not working

The trade-off is pretty complex. I think D*'s bitrates (13-14 Mbps) are high enough that, with the right tweaking, rateshaping the original 1920x1080i feeds should usually look better than reducing the resolution to 1280x1080i and recompressing.

That would be true, IF those bitrates were true.... which they are not.

That would be true, IF those bitrates were true.... which they are not.

According to the reported transponder loading in the latest uplink reports the HD channels on D* should be getting 13-14 Mbps with the exception of HBO/SHO/HDNM.

1920x1088 is not a recognized HD standard. It would still not be considered real HD. ;)
I wish someone would tell my CBS station this so I wouldn't have this eight pixel gray line on the bottom of my screen. Surely putting 1080 into the MPEG header isn't difficult since all the other 1080i stations in town have it.

I can take those darn black bars on my screen, but a gray line, well that's just going too far. :)

http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56550

Some are reporting larger file sizes and full resolution. It figures since I just deactivated my hacked HDtivo.

HDTVFanatic??? Can you take a look?

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=990241#post990241
HD Quantity vs Quality and a little HD-Lite - Page 4 - DBSTalk.Com

American chopper last night was 1920 x 1088. I can confirm it. I haven't seen anything from HDNet at that res yet. I don't have the original unedited mpg of chopper anymore so I don't know the original bitrate but it must have been **** because it was still macro blocking all over.

http://doinkdoink.us/vlcsnap-2085227.png
http://doinkdoink.us/vlcsnap-2085356.png

Where does your post confirm 1920?

Where does your post confirm 1920?
Look at the resolution of the captures...

Interesting...

Are the serrated edges/jaggies the result of the frame being interlaced? I.e. every other line is from the previous frame and is old data? (For example, look at the second frame at the end of the guy's nose.)

Interesting...

Are the serrated edges/jaggies the result of the frame being interlaced? I.e. every other line is from the previous frame and is old data? (For example, look at the second frame at the end of the guy's nose.)
This must be what is throwing me.

Yes, they are interlaced pictures. Would you prefer ones de-interlaced?

Another link...

http://www.comcast.com/hdchallenge/


"If you have an HDTV, why watch anything but HD shows and movies?"

Why force people to pay for anything but HD channels? :rolleyes:

No I've just never taken a close look at a still interlaced HD frame - at least not long enough to see the artifacts created by the interlacing.

After seeing that, it sure seems like there is a lot of improvement that could be realized in 1080 LCD/DLP/Plasma sets via processing by tossing out the old info and interpolating every other line instead of displaying the old frame info (if they don't so this already).

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1039879#post1039879

Sequence Summary:

File Size Processed: 38.19 MB, Play Time: 00h:00m:16s
1920 x 1088, 29.97 fps, 65.00 Mbps (13.14 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 56.92 KB/Frame, 0.22 Bits/Pixel.
AC3 Audio: 2/0 Channels (L, R), 48.0 kHz, 384 kbps.
Dialog Normalization: -29.0 dB
1 of 451 video frames found with errors.
0 of 500 audio frames found with errors.
7 corrupted video bytes in file.
0.000000 seconds of video timestamp gaps.
0.000000 seconds of audio timestamp gaps.

End of Log

I sampled D* DiscoveryHD its 1920x1080 but the rest is still HD-F***Lite

Ok well what is everyones thought on the new improved PQ? Like I mentioned earlier it doesn't look that much better to me, if at all. I'm basing my views on the amount of blocking that is still on the screen.

Can't the resolution stay the same, but compression continue to be a problem and degrade the picture?

Can't the resolution stay the same, but compression continue to be a problem and degrade the picture?
Absolutely. Up to a certain point, bandwidth is actually more important than resolution. Low bit rates will make any resolution video look poor. On the other hand, high bit rates can (within certain limits) make lower resolution video look better than higher resolution video at the same reduced bit rate.

I sampled D* DiscoveryHD its 1920x1080 but the rest is still HD-F***Lite
Its still an important sign.

Its still an important sign.
So is one that says "Warning - Keep Away". However, if this indicates they are taking steps to increase quality, it is worth taking notice of.

Its still an important sign.


I think its a HUGE sign. D* made a consious decision to increase the horizontal resolution by 50% (or return it to what it was supposed to be). I think it signifies that they recoginze there is a difference, otherwise why do it. Hopefully, a sign of things to come when D10 becomes operational.

Will D10 allow them to free up any space on the other sats, allowing the current Mpeg2 channels to get a bit of a boost?

Will D10 allow them to free up any space on the other sats, allowing the current Mpeg2 channels to get a bit of a boost?
Yes, because the current MPEG2 HD channels will eventually be shut down and moved exclusively to MPEG4 on D10. The thing is, there are only three HD channels at 101, which is where the vast majority of the MPEG2 SD channels reside.

Yes, because the current MPEG2 HD channels will eventually be shut down and moved exclusively to MPEG4 on D10. The thing is, there are only three HD channels at 101, which is where the vast majority of the MPEG2 SD channels reside.

Well I dont think thatll happen for ateast a year. Too many MPEG2 receivers.

Are they screwing around (in a good way) with the SD channels as well? The notoriously bad, horrendous PQ of SCI FI doesn't seem to be present. Watching Superhero (on right now) and the PQ looks better than anything I've seen on SCI FI on a very long time.

I'm watching, more listening, Get Out right now and if they are doing this at 1920 they have some work to do. It's pretty easy to check because they are wearing bikinis and you can see the color in their bodies kinda changing when they are moving around. Not the mention the water can become blocky at times.


Gotta love that compressed artifact look of Sat HD.

D* needs to start cutting unpopular SD channels AND start providing true HD with a good bit-rate.

I am serious....Channels like BET(Black Entertanment Channel),Fine Living,Fox Reality,GEMSTV,Logo,TV one, and WE.....ALL wasting precious bandwidth.

D* needs to start cutting unpopular SD channels AND start providing true HD with a good bit-rate.

I am serious....Channels like BET(Black Entertanment Channel),Fine Living,Fox Reality,GEMSTV,Logo,TV one, and WE.....ALL wasting precious bandwidth.

Actually, I like Fine Living and wouldn't mind them wasting some bits on it, so that when I zoom on the widescreen presentations, it will still look decent on my widescreen TV. I like The Wandering Golfer.

Now as for the QVCs of the world, I understand the business model of having them in the lineup, but bit-starving them would probably not make a difference in sales.

What about the west feeds of the movie channels? Now that most people have DVRs, are these necessary anymore? Just think of how many more shopping and church channels Directv could add with the extra bandwidth from those alone.

Well I dont think thatll happen for ateast a year. Too many MPEG2 receivers.
There are probably less than you think. In my estimation, it'll be a year at most.

D* needs to start cutting unpopular SD channels AND start providing true HD with a good bit-rate.

I am serious....Channels like BET(Black Entertanment Channel),Fine Living,Fox Reality,GEMSTV,Logo,TV one, and WE.....ALL wasting precious bandwidth.

The channels you cite seem to have more to do with your personal prejudices than an actual objective measure of unpopularity in the universe of cable channels.

There are probably less than you think. In my estimation, it'll be a year at most.
Agreed. Even my friend who was getting his locals OTA has swapped out his receiver for an MPEG4 model since HD LIL is available here. Due to the popularity of local channels, I'd bet the situation will mostly take care of itself among the average HD customer. The rest will follow along as they deem necessary.

I would figure the only MPEG2 receivers still in use are 1) customers who do not have MPEG4 LIL service in their area 2) Customers who get their local channels OTA and 3) secondary receivers that got moved to a second TV after the customer upgraded to an MPEG4 box.

Since new HD customers will get MPEG4 boxes, it's doubtful that many people will be affected. In addtion, if they started with the premium channels, that would be an even smaller pool to swap out.

What about the west feeds of the movie channels? Now that most people have DVRs, are these necessary anymore? Just think of how many more shopping and church channels Directv could add with the extra bandwidth from those alone.
What if a movie comes on that conflicts with 2 other shows at that time period? Or what about the people that don't have dvr's?

What if a movie comes on that conflicts with 2 other shows at that time period? Or what about the people that don't have dvr's?
Agreed. It's nice to have choices.

Don't forget about the people actually in the alternate timezones. Without DVR's they'd get 6pm or 7pm originals being aired.

I would figure the only MPEG2 receivers still in use are 1) customers who do not have MPEG4 LIL service in their area 2) Customers who get their local channels OTA and 3) secondary receivers that got moved to a second TV after the customer upgraded to an MPEG4 box.
You forgot 4) Diehard Tivo fanatics who are holding out hope that DirecTV and Tivo will announce an MPEG4 HD DVR.

You forgot 4) Diehard Tivo fanatics who are holding out hope that DirecTV and Tivo will announce an MPEG4 HD DVR.
That's crazy talk! :D :D :D

Agreed this is an excellent sign. If D* reups the resolution for channels now (whether its 1 or multiple) without the available bandwidth that signifies very clearly they will be using full resolution to encode on the MPEG4s.

And if the new sat gives them more bandwidth, and more efficient encoding, we can assume that we will not see the bandwidth starved properties on the broadcast. It is a very very good sign that they are at least looking at resolution.

Anyone else think based on this we may start seeing 'simulcasting' of MPEG2 and MPEG4 HD with an accelerated MPEG2 shutdown? I'm guessing the MPEG2 HDs are gonna be shutdown a lot sooner than we think, like 1Q08 (by the time D*11 is live). There will be no reason to keep it around once the H21 and HR21 are available for "cheap" swap outs.

Chris

Agreed this is an excellent sign. If D* reups the resolution for channels now (whether its 1 or multiple) without the available bandwidth that signifies very clearly they will be using full resolution to encode on the MPEG4s.

No it doesn't ... they could just be testing to see how much they can get away with before the villagers break out the torches and pitchforks. ;)

I wish someone would tell my CBS station this so I wouldn't have this eight pixel gray line on the bottom of my screen. Surely putting 1080 into the MPEG header isn't difficult since all the other 1080i stations in town have it.

I can take those darn black bars on my screen, but a gray line, well that's just going too far. :)Interlaced MPEG2 must have a vertical height divisible by 32. 1088 is the closest multiple which is why you get 8 pixels of trash.

There's mention of this issue somewhere in an ATSC document, but I'm too lazy to go find it right now. I think the actual recommendation is to fill the 8 pixels with black so it's hidden no matter what.

The encoder should tag it as 1080 anyway. I know Motorola fixed it somewhere around 4.3, but it's still a pretty common bug. It's common enough that decoders should have an option to ignore the bottom 8 pixels. That's what MyHD eventually did.

2) Customers who get their local channels OTA

That's me. I would also like to add 4) They haven't given me enough incentive to switch both of my boxes yet.

They haven't given me enough incentive to switch both of my boxes yet.
Really? The boatload of HD channels coming very soon isn't enough of an incentive?

What I've wondered is if DirecTV will include the current HD channels on the mpeg 4 satellite. If the new channels are full resolution, it stinks that HDnet and ESPN are stuck over on mpeg 2. I only watch at 720p on a Panny AX100, but ESPN looks horrible much of the time.

RonO

What I've wondered is if DirecTV will include the current HD channels on the mpeg 4 satellite. If the new channels are full resolution, it stinks that HDnet and ESPN are stuck over on mpeg 2. I only watch at 720p on a Panny AX100, but ESPN looks horrible much of the time.

RonO
I've asked this question a few times, but no one seems to have a definitive answer on the subject. I guess until they show up in MPEG4, no one will really know for sure. However, I would assume they would end up there within this next year.

heck, if they started with the few premium channels, it would only make for a small number of box swaps to be able to turn the MPEG2 versions of them off. That would not only allow for those channels to improve, but the remaining MPEG2 channels, as well.

...if they started with the few premium channels, it would only make for a small number of box swaps to be able to turn the MPEG2 versions of them off.
Not following your reasoning here because, unless I'm out in lala land on this thread, it would seem chaotic for D*:

1. There are roughly a million D* HD subs, according to the experts on another forum.

2. Of that total, there has to be hundreds of thousands like me not having MPEG4 equip.

3. Not only do many of us not have MPEG4 equip., but Great Scott quite a few like me with a Sony HD200 or less.

4. There's no way D* can force or entice me to go MPEG4 (and, yuck, an automatic 2 yr. commitment) until at the earliest Dec. By that time, there may be some consensus on whether or not the MPEG4 nat. channels are pretty much HDLite. And there has to be tens perhaps hundreds of thousands like me standing pat for now.

5. If HDLite continues on MPEG4, this NFL HD addict in 2008 would look toward Comcast and perhaps think about more reading of books! :)

So I question whether D* would attempt shutting down MPEG2 HD for at least the next year.

4. There's no way D* can force or entice me to go MPEG4 (and, yuck, an automatic 2 yr. commitment) until at the earliest Dec. By that time, there may be some consensus on whether or not the MPEG4 nat. channels are pretty much HDLite. And there has to be tens perhaps hundreds of thousands like me standing pat for now.

5. If HDLite continues on MPEG4, this NFL HD addict in 2008 would look toward Comcast and perhaps think about more reading of books! :)

I am wondering if the NFL (Network) HD games will be mpeg4 only or continue to be done in mpeg2 as is the case now. When those games start up on Thanksgiving, even the NFL ST mpeg2 fence sitters might start making the switch when their team is only in mpeg4 on the NFL Network in mpeg4 HD.

Then again, there is always the SD feed...

There's no way D* can force or entice me to go MPEG4 (and, yuck, an automatic 2 yr. commitment) until at the earliest Dec.
They can't force you, but they can shut off your programming and tell you that you need to either upgrade, or live without it.

They can't force you, but they can shut off your programming and tell you that you need to either upgrade, or live without it.
Exactly.

If that weren't enough, in the contract you have with them, they specifically state they can change or even cancel your service at any time.

They can't force you, but they can shut off your programming and tell you that you need to either upgrade, or live without it.

Exactly.

If that weren't enough, in the contract you have with them, they specifically state they can change or even cancel your service at any time.

I've never doubted this for one second since going with D*, but with so many still on MPEG2 and ST as well, do you really think they'd take such hasty action, especially before the end of the 2007 NFL season?

I know probably by this time next year if I'm still a D* sub, I'll be forced to upgrade, but I'd be surprised if D* played hardball over the next 9 mos or so. But then again, oh me, if only I had the confidence & the experience these are honorable people we're talking about!

They can't force you, but they can shut off your programming and tell you that you need to either upgrade, or live without it.

Yep ... I'd bet that we are going to see one or more of the existing "fulltime" MPEG2 HD channels disappear on Sunday afternoons this fall ... if you want 'em you'll need the MPEG4.

I've never doubted this for one second since going with D*, but with so many still on MPEG2 and ST as well, do you really think they'd take such hasty action, especially before the end of the 2007 NFL season?

I know probably by this time next year if I'm still a D* sub, I'll be forced to upgrade, but I'd be surprised if D* played hardball over the next 9 mos or so. But then again, oh me, if only I had the confidence & the experience these are honorable people we're talking about!
Where did I ever say anything about ST? I was referring to premium channels, like HBO. When you break down the number of people who have HD service, subscribe to premium channels and have not upgraded to MPEG4 equipment, that number is much smaller.

Since the new bird is going online after football season starts, I doubt ST would go MPEG4 this time around.

Since the new bird is going online after football season starts, I doubt ST would go MPEG4 this time around.
Yep, ST will be MPEG2 this year. However, it's a very safe bet that it will be MPEG4 next year.

Yep, ST will be MPEG2 this year. However, it's a very safe bet that it will be MPEG4 next year.
Definitely. It's to late for this season, though.

wrong forum webb

He's just lurkin... the FUD has to kick up now that the new FCC filing has the satellite going live in about 2 weeks. :D

Oh and sandiegojoe - Go Padres :D

Chris

Unless you have your set's controls on torch mode (w/ contrast & brightness all the way up) most sets won't have a burn-in problem. With the "Guru's" line of thinking you'd never want to watch a 2.35 AR DVD either. Besides, who watches SD anyway? :rolleyes:

After seeing that, it sure seems like there is a lot of improvement that could be realized in 1080 LCD/DLP/Plasma sets via processing by tossing out the old info and interpolating every other line instead of displaying the old frame info (if they don't so this already).
"Tossing out the old info and interpolating every other line" means 540 actual lines. This is not HD, this is crap. A TV should deinterlace properly, Faroudja and Silicon Optix show the way out of the cave ;-)

In regards to black vertical bars in 4:3 mode: why did they do this? Cannot they just feed bare 4:3? Putting gray bars beside 4:3 content is the task of a TV, not of a receiver anyway.

I'll add my comment about our wonderful HD channels.
I'mseeing alot more artifacts or pixalation (that's what I call it ;) )and I was watching the National Geographic preview one noght and was BLOWN AWAY AT HOW BAD IT WAS.

I've yet to call Dtv and ask what's up, because I'm having some severe issues with my TV I'm on my 3rd light engine in now!! If I can get it fixed I hope I can get some good looking tv

Watching "Jesus in the Himalayas" right now via D*(started 11:00pm pst) and it's as bad as I've ever seen it.

I've been able to watch some DHDT and agree the picture does look better. However the is more blocking then there previously was. Mostly static images look pretty good. A medium amount of movement looks pretty bad.

They can increase the resolution but they also need to increase the bandwidth.

D* needs to start cutting unpopular SD channels AND start providing true HD with a good bit-rate.

I am serious....Channels like BET(Black Entertanment Channel),Fine Living,Fox Reality,GEMSTV,Logo,TV one, and WE.....ALL wasting precious bandwidth.
Well, here is the problem.
I don't watch most of those channels, but many people do.
Your waste is someone else's wealth.

I've yet to call Dtv...
DTV = Digital TV

D* = DirecTV

Is D* STILL doing some true HD?

By the way, I was on the phone with D* the other day and was told that they would no longer be offereing HD channels with MPEG 2. I don't know if she was saying that this was going to happen soon, or that some of them would not be available after Sept when they turn on their new HD channels.

By the way I upgraded. I'll be getting a new oval dish to pick up their new satellite (s). This will be the first time I'll be receving MPEG 4 and have a DVR. From what I was told, no other tivo or dvr company is making one that is compatable with DirecTV. I took her word for it. Looks like the install will be in early September. Just in time for the new chnanels!

From what I was told, no other tivo or dvr company is making one that is compatable with DirecTV. I took her word for it.
It's true.

I watched a few minutes of some shark show on DHDT this weekend and I have to say even if they are doing 1920, it still looks like crap. There was blocking all over the freaking place.

I watched a few minutes of some shark show on DHDT this weekend and I have to say even if they are doing 1920, it still looks like crap. There was blocking all over the freaking place.

That would be due to the low bitrate... not the resolution.

~Alan