Just posted by the HD Guru:

"Latest DirecTV Receivers “Earn Their Stripes” But the Defect Doesn’t Win Any Awards

You will learn and see how the DirecTV MPEG4/MPEG2 HD tuners add black stripes to standard definition content. This flaw may can cause your HDTV to "burn in" vertical stripes. This (copyrighted) article is a must read for anyone that owns or is thinking about purchasing the HR20 or H20. The story is at

www.hdguru.com

The HD Guru

Wow!

That would be a must read for anyone with a CRT or Plasma display thinking about getting one of those receivers, they are the only two types that can suffer from burn in.

Gary (or any other H20/HR20 owner),

What happens if you set the H20/HR20 to 480i/p output on SD channels? ... I wouldn't be using the H20/HR20 for much SD material anyway, but since you brought up the issue ...

The H20 will allow either follow native res or convert everything to a certain resolution. I run mine in follow native res mode and this allows 4:3 SD to be displayed the way I want it while allowing 16:9 to display in transmitted AR. I use the AR function on my CRT Sony to decide whether I want the SD in postage stamp or stretch or some zoom mode when a letterbox show comes on for display in my 16:9 set. The only drawback is it takes about 3 seconds to change when changing from a 480i to 720p/1080i channel. When going from same res to same res channel, the time is about 1 second. I have had my H20 (don't have the HR20 yet) for about year now with no problems.

Just posted by the HD Guru:

"Latest DirecTV Receivers “Earn Their Stripes” But the Defect Doesn’t Win Any Awards

You will learn and see how the DirecTV MPEG4/MPEG2 HD tuners add black stripes to standard definition content. This flaw may can cause your HDTV to "burn in" vertical stripes. This (copyrighted) article is a must read for anyone that owns or is thinking about purchasing the HR20 or H20. The story is at

www.hdguru.com

The HD Guru

Yuk!

To avoid this I'll happily license them the technology to add a bunch of options to fix this for the sum of $1.

See How to display a 4:3 video on a 16:9 screen (http://www.trbarry.com/Displaying_4x3_on_16x9.htm)

- Tom

The H20 will allow either follow native res or convert everything to a certain resolution.

Yeah .. I often run my HR10 at 480p for SD channels since my display gives me more AR options at 480i/p, but I was more interested in whether the "black stripe" problem occurs at 480i/p or if it's just a problem when the SD is being upconverted.

I've seen the same issue from my local FOX station that recently decided to change their side-bars to gray instead of black when they are sending out upconverted SD programming.

Just posted by the HD Guru:

"Latest DirecTV Receivers “Earn Their Stripes” But the Defect Doesn’t Win Any Awards

You will learn and see how the DirecTV MPEG4/MPEG2 HD tuners add black stripes to standard definition content. This flaw may can cause your HDTV to "burn in" vertical stripes. This (copyrighted) article is a must read for anyone that owns or is thinking about purchasing the HR20 or H20. The story is at

www.hdguru.com

The HD Guru

Crap. Everytime I go to pull the plug on Brighthouse Cable and get D* some other problem pops up. I can see this as a serious problem for most everyone who has a 16x9 HDTV screen. I however have an excellent 61" Sony CRT HDTV with a 4x3 screen and I love it's PQ. Would I be able to still watch SD (4x3) programs in full 61" using the HR20? If so it would not be a problem for me. I do have burn-in on SD viewing from watching HD 16x9 programs but it "disappears" into the less than perfect SD picture but I would hate to have burn-in showing on a beautiful 16x9 HD picture. :(

Haven't these receivers been out for a while now? Why are we just now hearing about it. I find it odd that this hasn't been discussed in this forum before the hdguru article. Do people really see this as a problem, or did the guru have some bad luck?

the H20 has been out for about a year I think

as a practical matter, most installers will set the screen format to stretch in the H20 menu when they see the user has a 16:9 display, and as pointed out, overscan in the display may help too

D* could easily fix this in a firmware update once they are convinced it is a problem that needs to be addressed

That would be a must read for anyone with a CRT or Plasma display thinking about getting one of those receivers, they are the only two types that can suffer from burn in.

Not entirely true--you can most definitely get burn-in on LCD as well. I burned the 4:3 bars into my Panasonic LCD projector by watching too much 4:3 content. Ruined the projector. Now I watch everything stretched to avoid that happening again.

So, theoretically, anyone with an LCD TV could ruin it by using the DirecTV receivers.

Impossible. At worst, you'll get image retention, not burn-in.


The article is knee-jerk paranoia, like a Dateline story. A simple mix of viewing HD or DVD sources along with SD programming, on a PROPERLY ADJUSTED set, will not result in burn-in.

Not entirely true--you can most definitely get burn-in on LCD as well. I burned the 4:3 bars into my Panasonic LCD projector by watching too much 4:3 content. Ruined the projector. Now I watch everything stretched to avoid that happening again.

So, theoretically, anyone with an LCD TV could ruin it by using the DirecTV receivers.

You could have played a movie with a lot of action and colors to revive the pixels that 'appear' to be burnt in.

Yeah .. I often run my HR10 at 480p for SD channels since my display gives me more AR options at 480i/p, but I was more interested in whether the "black stripe" problem occurs at 480i/p or if it's just a problem when the SD is being upconverted.

You can tell the H20 to use black bars or gray bars. Sounds like this guy doesn't know what he is talking about.

I always use the HR20's black bars with 4:3 content on my Trinitron 16:9 CRT. I haven't had any burn-in yet. The installers had it set to "stretch" mode at first, but I couldn't stand it.

I see the same thing happening on stations broadcasting OTA and cable. Seems to me like someone just wants to slam Directv...

You can tell the H20 to use black bars or gray bars. Sounds like this guy doesn't know what he is talking about.

I wouldn't say that ... the "problem" (if you checked the screen cap) is that it goes from gray bar to thin black stripe to program to thin black stripe to gray bar. IOW, the gap at the edges of the that usually gets overscanned away on 4:3 sets isn't getting covered up. If you set it the side bars to black, you just get a bigger black bar.

PS: I still like to know what happens when the receivers are set to native 480i/p output. Are the black stripes still present (or no?)

PPS: In any case, on my 5yr old CRT RPTV, I haven't seen any burn in problem from black (or gray) sidebars ... of course it's not running anywhere near the OOB torch mode either. ;)

This is all just a lot of FUD. Both my H20-100 STB and my 16:9 LCD TV (LG 32LC2D) have menu adjustments to set the color of the "bars" on either side of a 4:3 image. The choices are "black", "gray, and "blue".

My TV is on 24/7 (except when I'm using my projector) and I got the set on Dec. 27th, 2006 (the H20 was installed last November). I watch between 10% & 20% HD programming and have my "bars" set to black. I have not noticed any image retention effects. However, I did a very basic, eyeball, calibration of the set as soon as I got it (I turned down the image brightness way down - lumen output, not black level - and reduced the color saturation). The image still has lots of "pop" and is plenty bright and very "natural", even in full daylight (the main LR windows are behind the set).

Most displays are set to their "torch" mode, as delivered (they're set that way to sell more product in the stores). Using this "default" mode is asking for image retention/burn-in effects. I did the same for my 4:3 CRT set when I got it too.

HDTVChallenged -- On my display, it looks the same regardless of what my H20 SB is set to (480i, 480p, 720p, or 1080i). The only difference is that the picture is slightly sharper (looks like it has more detail) in the 720p/1080i modes. My set is 1366 x 768 native, so it gets scaled either way. I have my H20 set to 720p for all channels, since the picture seems to look a "tad" (a technical term :rolleyes: ) better in that mode (fewer processing steps). The scaling of SDTV (480i) programs seems to be pretty much the same regardless if the H20 or my TV is doing the scaling. My set does a good job of scaling, since a well mastered SD DVD (480p mode) looks almost as good as an OTA HD program (which looks slightly better than a good Discovery HD Theater program).

BTW, there doesn't seem to be any difference between using the Component connections or the HDMI connection (I don't watch the set from 40" away = 1.43 x screen width :eek: like I do with my PJ). I also get the same results when I use my projector as I do with my 32LC2D TV set.

PS: I still like to know what happens when the receivers are set to native 480i/p output. Are the black stripes still present (or no?)

I am not seeing it here when I put gray on, but remember that not every station, OTA or cable fills the whole pixel set. The 4:3 channels are hardly ever set with overscan off so if the picture was shifted horizontally a few lines, they would never know it anyway and don't care because overscan of 4:3 sets takes care of their sloppiness.

I remember the first year American Idol went widescreen. The banner that flies in from the left with the telephone information sat just visible about 2 lines to non overscan widescreen sets and you knew when the TD was set to fly it in. People watching 4:3 analog never saw it since it was only visible in the widescreen shot and not the center cut. That lasted about three shows and then it disappeared not to be seen again. It happens.

I am not seeing it here when I put gray on, but remember that not every station, OTA or cable fills the whole pixel set.

Exactly ... I think, from looking at Gary's screencap, that this is what's happening.

OTOH, both my HR10 and the ancient E86 seem to overlap their gray bars enough that I rarely see any left over black stripes from the "dead zone." In any case, I guess I'll find out for myself soon enough.

If you're really interested....more reading here:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=94315

Impossible. At worst, you'll get image retention, not burn-in.

It is NOT impossible. In fact, I talked directly with a Panasonic tech guy who said he saw burn in quite a bit on LCD, and that every person told him "But that is impossible!" He just laughs at them.

Burn-in is VERY possible on LCD. I did it myself. I RUINED my projector (Panny PT-AE700U) . And it was "properly adjusted". I just watched 1000+ hours of 4:3 content on it because I didn't have a HD source and I didn't feel like stretching it. This was not "image-retention". I didn't play any 4:3 material on it for over a month, and the black-bar burn-in didn't dissipate at all.

Thank goodness Visa treated it as a purchase-protection warranty repair and replaced my optical block ($1000).

I don't know anything that would make a LCD projector more apt to burn in than a LCD TV, but maybe someone can enlighten me.

I've had lots of people tell me burn in isn't possible on LCD, and it is one of the reasons I went with LCD. But just because it isn't as easy to burn in LCD as say plasma, you still have to be careful about it, or you can ruin your TV/Projector.

OK, I went back and looked more closely at the picture. I only had a chance to glance at it the first time. It is DEFINATELY NOT the H20/HR20's fault but the broadcast itself. The whole 4:3 pixel area is not being filled. Some stations don't do it and some do.

OK, I went back and looked more closely at the picture. I only had a chance to glance at it the first time. It is DEFINATELY NOT the H20/HR20's fault but the broadcast itself. The whole 4:3 pixel area is not being filled. Some stations don't do it and some do.

Oh?? You mean the problem might actually be caused by H-blanking and its variance in the NTSC world in the resultant upconvert, and/or by H-ANC in the HD world? :)

You mean that NTSC isn't perfect :eek:.

JamesAHall -- With a 1000 hours of only 4:3 video on your AE700, I'm not surprised. LCD PJs have a hot lamp in close proximity to the LCD panels. This heat will make "Burn-In" much more likely. Since most of my DVDs are widescreen (by choice), and that's usually what I use my PJs for, I haven't experienced your problem on the LCD PJs that I've owned. With LCD Flat Panel displays, the lamp/heat source is distributed and, thus, burn-in is much less likely (and a lot lower than the probability of burn-in on Plasma displays).

In any case, it's not a good idea to run 4:3 video continuously, on any 16:9 display. For many 4:3 TV programs, the newer ones are shot in "letterboxed" or "widescreen" mode, even if they are sent over a SD channel. With these, using one of the Zoom modes will expand the image to fill a 16:9 screen without creating excessive picture distortion (at least that's been my experience with my flat panel display, YMMV).

Oh?? You mean the problem might actually be caused by H-blanking and its variance in the NTSC world in the resultant upconvert, and/or by H-ANC in the HD world? :)

Or you could add an option to the receiver to move the darn side curtains a bit.

- Tom

I agree that it is the broadcast station. Only my OTA CBS station decided to add gray bars with black stripes. I have never witnessed this on any stations from Directv.

Also, I have not noticed anything different from Directv's old receivers vs. their new ones. I have both the H20 and HR20.

Anyway, I agree with the person that suggested just to be smart about your viewing habits and be sure to mix in some Full Screen HD content from time to time.

Or you could add an option to the receiver to move the darn side curtains a bit.- Tom

YEA, but that would make too much sense.. just like adding a picture size adjust (like the Roku Photobridge HD does) would allow users to make up for their sets'
overscan..

I have the Sony XBR2 SXRD with the HR20-700 and have never encountered the black bars. I set my receiver to "native" and the television to automatically go to "wide zoom" when it encounters a 4:3 signal and there are never any bars. I've always found that the Sony wide zoom setting for 4:3 programing was the best way to watch on a 16:9 TV--the only time you really notice the distortion is if you are watching something with a crawl and the letters are wider at the edges than in the middle. It's actually one of the reasons I went Sony, I thought the distortion to the part of the picture you are paying attention to is minimal.

Maybe a stupid question--are there lots of people actually watching the 4:3 aspect on their widescreens?

IMaybe a stupid question--are there lots of people actually watching the 4:3 aspect on their widescreens?


I would guess the majority of the people of this forum with the exception of some of the plasma owners watch shows undistorted.

I for one can not stand to watch on any of the stretch modes I've ever seen iincluding the SRXD -- absolutely vertigo inducing. If I ever change the setting on my set I will almost always use a zoom -- I'd rather lose information than see a show distort-o-vision'ed. Some people seem to be sensitive to rainbows, some to inaccurate color, and others to nonuniform geometry.

Please don't flame me, but could I use this as an excuse to get out of the ETF from D*?
I have (2)-H20 boxes and one box is on a RP CRT. I had to send back 2-boxes (H-20's) that I paid for ($100 each) that had reboot problems in order to get 2-leased boxes and a 2-year agreement....sneaky..yes, very sneaky.

I spent days upon days trying to get the boxes replaced without the 2-year agreement and one rep marked the account that I would not, but it never got marked on the account. I spent hours trying to rectify but never could so I figured that I got to get this resolved and "caved in".

Well, any help appreciated as I am switching to FIOS at the end of the month. I may try suspending my account then that gives me 6 months to figure it out.

You mean that NTSC isn't perfect :eek:.

JamesAHall -- With a 1000 hours of only 4:3 video on your AE700, I'm not surprised. LCD PJs have a hot lamp in close proximity to the LCD panels. This heat will make "Burn-In" much more likely. Since most of my DVDs are widescreen (by choice), and that's usually what I use my PJs for, I haven't experienced your problem on the LCD PJs that I've owned. With LCD Flat Panel displays, the lamp/heat source is distributed and, thus, burn-in is much less likely (and a lot lower than the probability of burn-in on Plasma displays).

That makes sense. Yah, the projector runs VERY hot, so it would make sense that an LCD projector would be more succeptable to burn in than a regular LCD tv.

I just want to make sure LCD owners don't think they are completely immune. I thought I was, an I almost got burned by it.

That makes sense. Yah, the projector runs VERY hot, so it would make sense that an LCD projector would be more succeptable to burn in than a regular LCD tv.

I just want to make sure LCD owners don't think they are completely immune. I thought I was, an I almost got burned by it.

I stand corrected. However, I have never seen an LCD FP with burn-in before. Your problem sounds more like a design flaw of an inexpensive projector than a failure of the technology itself (no offense intended!).

Just to clarify the 'black strip' issue. The black strips are only visibile when the H20 or HD20 is set to display 3 x 4 std. def. sources within a grey pillar box. This occurs when the output resolution is set to either native or is set to a fixed resolution. I tried 480i, 720p and 1080i output resolution and the black bars are visible with std. def. channels being displayed with a grey pillar box. When the pillar box bar color is set to black the black strips merge into the pillar box and are not visible. The best solution for most plasma or CRT owners is probably to set their H20 or HD20 to display std. def. material in stretch mode with pillar box turned off. With my H20 connected to a Vizio plasma I cannot see any black strips at the edges of the stretched image (perhaps the strips are in the over scan area that is not being displayed - the Vizio has about 4% overscan). For my HD20 connected to a Toshiba DLP, where I normally display std. def. channels with black pillar box,(and which does not have excessive overscan - definitely less than the Vizio) when I change the HD20 settings to stretch mode (instead of pillar box) the black strips are also not visible. I doubt very many HDTVs will have such little overscan to have an issue with burn-in with std. def. channels with the output from their H20 or HD20 set to stretched mode.

I stand corrected. However, I have never seen an LCD FP with burn-in before. Your problem sounds more like a design flaw of an inexpensive projector than a failure of the technology itself (no offense intended!).

i have to agree with this statement. I have been using an LCD rear projection unit (same hot lamp/close panel situation as front projection) for over 3 years watching a fair amount of SD with no pillar bar burn in. The receiver (LG LSS3200) has no grey bar option so black bars are all I get.

You have to remember that he ran it for 1000 hours exclusively in the 4:3 mode. A "fair amount" doesn't count. I too watch a "fair amount" of 4:3, but that represents at most 70% 4:3 and 30% 1.78:1 (16:9) to 2.40:1 material (and it's actually more like 50-50). That's enough to significantly reduce, or eliminate, the chance of LCD PJ burn in. Less than 10% 16:9 viewing is sufficient to eliminate burn-in on LCD flat panel displays.

The more I think about it the more I realize their is a LOT of current legacy 4:3 material that has garbage or black at both sides that is usually hidden in the horizontal overscan area. On a 16:9 display this garbage will not be cropped unless you do it on purpose.

However it would be possible to automatically or manually adjust for this as material is ingested or transmitted if desired. Maybe broadcasters of all types should look into this, even if most receivers can't yet offer the needed options to handle it. It is a problem that won't otherwise go away as the shift to 16:9 basically allows you to see what is behind the side curtains.

Somebody correct me here but I don't think most TV stations even monitor what their 4:3 material looks like pillar boxed.

- Tom

This is what happens when everyone just decides to switch aspect ratios from a perfectly good 4:3.

This is what happens when everyone just decides to switch aspect ratios from a perfectly good 4:3.

:rolleyes: Perhaps you'd be happier with mono audio and an 8" B&W display?

FUD.

I've had my H20 and now HR20 with a Sony KV-34XBR800 and no issues whatsoever. i have it display the grey bars for 4:3 programming.